Lulu Laidlaw-Smith: Seeing Beyond - From Hospitality to Tech

S4E6: Lulu Laidlaw-Smith's grandfather gave her her first introduction to reading between the lines and an education in hospitality developed her strategic holistic vision. Lulu is now Partner, Commercial Growth at The IMCC and Founder of Rip It Up Start Again.

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident. I'm fascinated by people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. Today I am speaking with Lulu Laidlaw-Smith Partner, Commercial Growth at The IMCC and Founder of Rip It Up Start Again.

Megan 0:38

Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

Lulu 0:41

No, absolutely.

Megan 0:43

Cool. Alright, well let's just do it. Let's do it. So I always start right at the beginning of when you were a little girl. What did you think you wanted to be when you grew up? What were your aspirations when you were small?

Lulu 0:58

Ooh, that's such a good question. I think the first thing that springs to mind is I was really influenced by my grandfather. He was what I would call today a troubleshooter for horses. I think people also refer it to horse whisperers, but I can't use that terminology because he doesn't like that term. He didn't like that terminology just because of some of his peer groups that he didn't agree with.

Megan 1:21

Yeah.

Lulu 1:21

The methodologies that they used. And he used to very early on he would involve me in the training. He would get me to try and guess what was wrong with the horse after he'd partially fixed it and fully fixed it. And it was his way of, I think, drawing out in me listening skills and, mm-hmm. All senses skills, the use of all our senses. And he then elevated the teaching to, luncheons. He would invite me as the only child in the room to lunches where you had you know, grownups around the table. All incredibly eloquent. And I was, he told me, sit, be quiet and watch. Don't say anything, let someone speaks to you. Mm-hmm. But after the lunch, I want you to tell me what went on between people. Yeah. Tell me the hidden stories that you can't see in the same way you've done it with animals. So from with, obviously this is hindsight speaking. Now, from that, I think when I got a little bit. 11, 12, I realized that I could troubleshoot, but that was my interpretation of what he had taught me. Mm-hmm. I could see things that other people couldn't see. I could, I started seeing things and then try to explain them to my mother or my brother, and they'd be like, oh my God. She's off with the fairies again, talking about the future. So early on, I think I, I knew I wanted to troubleshoot, but I think what I thought I would do would work in hotels. And I thought I would end up fixing problems to make hotels better than what they're at. That was my kind of childhood dream. I was like I get hospitality.'cause I spent a lot of time in that kind of area as in we always had open houses. Mm-hmm. You know, we, people used to come and stay a lot. There was a loss of entertainment, dining, et cetera. We used to hold concerts in our hall and lots of different things. It involved lots of different people. So hospitality to me was kind of obvious.

Megan 3:18

Yeah.

Lulu 3:18

But it was the troubleshooting thing. It was the watching wear. It could be better.

Megan 3:25

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 3:25

That I thought I had a third sight on. You know, I just believed that I knew, you know?

Megan 3:30

That's amazing. And what, a privilege to have a grandfather who would take you under his wing and as you said, like learn so much about listening, but also. To me it sounds like this empathetic problem solving. So it's not just solving the problem, but it's really understanding and reading between the lines. And bringing that into how do we solve problems? How do we go forward and starting with horses where they, they don't have language that we understand anyway, so that's an amazing skill and life. It's so lovely that your grandfather brought you under his wing that way and gave you that opportunity to just watch and learn, but not just that, like asking all those questions after and really probing you to think about it. And that's, I love that.

Lulu 4:20

It's, it's quite, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because when I think back on him, you know, he was a gadget mad person. Even though he is a country bumpkin, he always had the latest Sony or the latest this and the other. He'd buy things from Readers Digest, which is something that people today wouldn't know what that meant. But basically he was always, you go into his office, every holidays I'll go and stay with him and I'll go in, what have you bought over the last, you know, month or six weeks or 12 weeks? And it was always very exciting. So he was quite a futuristic man, and I think what he was actually acknowledging. Was the fact that I was gonna have a career and I was female and that was not normal. And in his world, you know, in in his world, I, you know, theoretically I would be married off, literally. And he didn't want that for me. That's what I've read.

Megan 5:04

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 5:04

He absolutely didn't want me to follow his footsteps in the horse world. Even though he was genuinely very, successful, he refused to allow me to play polo, which he and his father were particularly good at, because I would end up marrying an RG barge was his mm-hmm. Turn of phrase. He didn't want that because he didn't want me to marry an Argentinian. And, he made lots of presumptions, so I think he was, he was being quite futuristic about, this child should be out in the working world and I'm gonna try and empower her with the insights to mm-hmm. To do what I do. But in the world of business, not in the world of animals. I mean, what I should have done was become a vet, obviously, but you know, it, I don't, you know, maybe my chemistry or physics would just not up to scratch. I don't really know. It is really interesting how your life, it's so non-linear. Really, hence this podcast, I guess. But I think what I ended up, in hindsight looking at was hospitality was probably, which is what I did in university. Hospitality is probably the most all encompassing. It looks at business as a whole system. Yes, they're focusing on hotels, but that is a business system and experience operations, brand revenue delivering to a customer from all aspects of so it, it really is in the same way that he fixed horses, you know, it became the business equivalent, just, I guess a wider scope coming to be more effective in a commercial world. A commercial ecosystem almost.

Megan 6:46

Yeah. That's a good point about hospitality.'cause I think so many people when they think of hospitality, they think of those front facing roles. You know, like a server in a restaurant. Yeah. Or the concierge or the person checking you in at a hotel. But to your point, it is a whole system and it's all based on the customer experience and how all those things go into delivering that and those random holistically. Yeah. And yeah, so I can definitely see the connections. And the other thing I love about just going back to your grandfather for one more second is, seeing the future and wanting a different future for you, but also how transferable those skills are. So yes, he was using them within the horse context, but he also saw that he was setting you up for a career outside of working with horses and didn't want that for you even. It's really fascinating to me.

Lulu 7:40

Yeah. I mean, obviously hindsight is a great thing, Megan. I think, of

Megan 7:43

course,

Lulu 7:44

at the time I had absolutely no idea what was going on, and I've, equally may have misread some of his, you know, he was full intuition, he had huge empathy. I think you can't be a horse whisperer without having that skill base. he would today be an entrepreneur. You know, entrepreneurs have insights pouring out of them with not a lot of research or substance to qualify. And this is what makes humans so complicated. You know, to your point about hospitality. Most people will talk about hospitality based on what is in their direct world. So a lot of people will just see hospitality as I go to a restaurant once a week, so therefore it's a service in a restaurant. Nobody really takes a step back and looks at the whole holistic picture of what does that take to deliver that service at that point in time? And if you, if you take that one step per further back and understand about business. Business is that same holistic power, you know? You have surely, yeah. You have B2B or B2C.

Megan 8:44

Yeah.

Lulu 8:44

And you might be, you know, selling a widget, but what's behind that? How do you get to that? what expertise, what insights have you brought together to deliver that? And a lot of people, even within a company are in silos. So I'm procurement. Mm-hmm. I'm sales, I'm marketing, I'm brand, I'm, I'm engineering, I'm the science. You know, it's the CEO's job to bring it all together. Right?

Megan 9:06

Yeah.

Lulu 9:06

So he was teaching me, you know, how I look at it is very much a sort of CEO role of look at the holistic picture, which has lent to this, like nonlinear, pathway of, the first thing I see when I speak to somebody, the first thing is like almost five years ahead mm-hmm. Of where that goes. What are the opportunities? How can you make it happen? What's needed? I can't deliver everything along that pathway, but I've honed my network to bring together the experts that can deliver. Mm-hmm. To that, I see the vision every single and that's frustrating by the way. That's incredibly frustrating because, I see it clear as day A CEO might align with me.'cause they go, oh my God, she gets it. She gets it. She gets it. Yeah. So trust me, shares information that's probably, you know, private, confidential, whatever. And together we can get there and I can support, but a lot of people, even within the company, won't have that same site pattern.

Megan 10:02

Yeah.

Lulu 10:02

That same flight path. Do you know what I mean? It can be very frustrating because of course I want it tomorrow and quite often it will take, you know, 12, 18 months.

Megan 10:11

That understanding of the, so that's counter. Yeah, for sure. With every skill and capability, there's obviously the positives, and then there's the downsides, which in this case, like wanting to move faster and but it is a capability that being able to see the end, to end that holistic how all the pieces fit together, how they impact on each other, and then also where it can go. I mean, those are, there's multiple capabilities in that. So you did say that you took, hospitality in university, what did you do after university? What was your first job out when you graduated?

Lulu 10:50

My first job was at a hotel. I studied in Switzerland and they make you work in hotels every six months, four, six months, as at the end of your first year, they condense 12 months into six months.

Megan 11:01

Wow.

Lulu 11:01

Academically. And then you have to do a six month stage. So it is not like univers like normal university, right? There's no such thing called holiday. So that's just ridiculous. So you have, so in your third year, you spend six months in a hotel in genuinely in Switzerland. And then you come, and then I returned home to England having secured a job at Forte Hotels. And by that stage, I think you, you genuinely feel that you're better than perhaps where you are landing.

Megan 11:27

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 11:28

Your arrogance is such that you, you have done the nitty gritty, you've done the service, you've done even you know, we did the washing up, you did every aspect of, throughout the hotel. So you genuinely and probably justifiably feel that. You've even done the accounts by hand because as Swiss make you do it by hand, regardless of the fact there's automated systems, the Swiss take you back to basics and they make you value time amongst other things and optimization. That's their key teachings which I think is really valuable in business. Some of us, after we, we had a 10 year reunion and we kind of went, this should be a sort of a, everybody should do this like a national service because to your point, it's so widespread, but it delivers a different viewpoint, right? So everybody came outta the university and doing a different thing. So anyway, I did go into hospitality. I did get a job at Forte. They put me in reception. I was absolutely bored outta my head. I tried to, it was at the time when I don't wanna give away my age, but it was a bit of a recession. I was desperate to do marketing. I was desperate to travel the world and troubleshoot. That's all I really wanted to do. Mm-hmm. I wanted to just go and build a brand, you know, I wanted to make a real difference and make a real change for that group. And needless to say, my manager was less qualified than I was, and I didn't really understand that at the time. You know, experienced feet on the ground but didn't have the same vision. In their head didn't have the aspirations for shifting real commercial effectiveness.

Megan 12:50

Yeah.

Lulu 12:50

And I didn't realize that was my position, if you like. So there's a naivety you know, is so frustrating because you don't understand what you know and what you don't know. So I didn't do a competitive audit on my team. What are the strengths and weaknesses and, you know, how can we work together and make it a better place? My boss, if I'd done that, would've gone, whoa, above your station. What are you doing? You know, stop. But, only through other, job roles. I realized that there are other things in the world of attitudes that changes or dissects or makes the score your reading different because of who you are. You know, I clearly was an clearly workaholic. The Swiss had taught me to value time. The Swiss had taught me cost and time optimization, so I was incredibly efficient, but I did. Work at a high level with regards to speed and achievement. Assumed everybody else was exactly the same space as me. Deeply disappointed when I realized that it wasn't the case. And so after this first job, I think it was about eight months, I literally walked into a recruitment office. In those days we had shops, shop windows and said, you need to get me a job. This is my qualification what am I gonna do? And this poor girl she found a job for me, which was completely different sector. She said, look, I understand your hotel and hospitality, but that sector right now is crashing and burning and nothing's happening. And because you are just a graduate, you will get a really bad role and no one's gonna promote you. You know, you are gonna sit in a really frustrated place for about a year or two. However, I found this really nice role that will make her loads of money.com. Didn't know that. In a publishing house, mirror group newspapers it is a maternity leave position. High risk. But I'm not telling that Lulu, but I think you'll really enjoy it because you are dynamic and obviously this is where she sort of, you know, hones her. Yeah. She's selling

Megan 14:44

neither

Lulu 14:45

all. Yeah,

Megan 14:46

yeah,

Lulu 14:47

yeah, absolutely. She's selling go and meet the guy who's in charge of the recruitment, which I did. And of course, he and I got on really well because publishing is a full of fully charged people like myself. So it became, mm-hmm. Like-minded personality match, which made me an easy sell to them.

Megan 15:03

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 15:03

And them an easy sell to me. And it was in the promotions department at the Mirror group, and that was starting, I mean, every partnership project that we did, our aim for every project was increasing the readership. So it was really simple, straightforward, again, aligned to hotels. It's about making customers happy. And every project we did, which was, you know, starting a new business and ending a new business in a partnership format was ensuring that the client, our client, would be Dixon's or whomever or films or whatever. Our client got the best engagement. We had to come up with the way to communicate that. And we had to work with, therefore our internal team being Subeditors and the art team to get the readership up. So you had to please the editor with the readership increasing mm-hmm. Based on the promotions and the deal that had to then, you know, create engagement from our readers to ensure that our clients came back from more promotions. So it was a win. It was the first time for me, coming from hotels, it was like easy, right? Because I already was trained in that process, if you like. Mm-hmm. So I loved it. I was there for about, I think seven, eight years. I mean, there were aspects of it that I really didn't like. The men's club. I was one of about, I don't know, five women. Wow.

Megan 16:25

Just,

Lulu 16:26

It was just, yeah. I mean, that was crazy. None of the subeditors really liked the way I spoke. So there was a, like a massive snobbery thing that I had to deal with. Mm-hmm. But again, you are in a certain pen, you have to fight, your opponents accordingly. Yeah. But from a business perspective, it taught me a hell of a lot. It was really, really fun. It was really challenging and I think that's what I like high challenge when I can see the solution.

Megan 16:52

Yeah. I mean, I can see reception wouldn't be particularly challenging, especially if you're in a position of. If the hospitality hotel industry was in a tough spot at that time, that just means like everyone's in a fear base, whether they know it or not. So they're not necessarily looking to rock the boat at all, which would be very frustrating. When you're there, you're full of ideas, you can see how it can be better and no one wants to hear it. I love how proactive you were though after only eight months being like, okay, I can't do this anymore. And then willing to take a leap into a completely different industry. Sometimes I think that is quite scary of, you know, I did all this training in a particular industry and I'm gonna pivot so soon. So yeah. I love that.

Lulu 17:40

You see, I sometimes look back and think, God, I'm mad. I could be running, you know, the, the top global hotel group or I could be working for a company that's looking to escalate into hospitality. You know, it's really interesting how you put it. I think I would say it's not, if I, if I lived again, I think I would probably go, that was quite fearless.

Megan 18:00

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 18:00

And I dunno if that's a good thing, you know, so I, again, hindsight, right? I think I've never stuck to Lane, so that's attitudinally my problem. But equally my strength of where I am now is because I've played in every single sector, I can see the commonality.

Megan 18:17

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 18:18

And it brings the clarity of my vision of how clients can actually get to where they want to. it's so easy for me to have that sight because I've crossed every single sector pretty much. And certainly being at the forefront of some sectors like technology. Mm-hmm. With regards to tech, not as in engineering technology.

Megan 18:39

Yeah. Well, and I think, again, it's with hindsight, but having all those different experiences is what gives you that skill or gives you the ability, and this might just be my perception, but to recognize it as a transferable skill and and really hone in on the capability and what you can do and what you're delivering versus being stuck in an industry and being like, yeah, I can do this in this industry. But actually the skill has nothing to do with the industry. It's just where you've been learning it or using it. And because you have switched industries each time you do that you build proof to yourself of, well, this is transferable and what I'm good at is this. I'm not good at hospitality. I'm good at seeing the process, seeing how things connect, seeing where things can go. Which I think is amazing. I think

Lulu 19:30

you're right. I think you're right. It's about working across narrative partnerships, growth proposition, and market understanding. I don't need to stick in one lane of, I've only ever worked in hospitality. I think, it makes much more sense. That, to me, the market understanding, again, going back to hospitality, they teach you to do, big feasibilities. The first one they do is you're gonna start off a restaurant. The second one's a hotel, so you, you have to do the whole feasibility, the planning, the strategizing, the market, understanding the competitive set, the whole thing that today I'm, you know, I've started up a new business, right? It's, it's the same process. They teach you this process and they teach it so diligently. That, you already know that you need to think P&L five years ahead. You need to, tack onto that what threats you've got in the market and what's gonna change and what does that mean with regards to, how much money you need to invest and, and who's in the network and who do you need to tap into to make that happen? All these kind of things. It's absolutely appliable across every single market. And, it's I think one of the, I guess one of the biggest lessons they taught you was, this is gonna sound really crazy, but the Swiss always had, we used to chant it a little bit, you know, they used to say it's all in the planning.

Megan 20:48

Yeah.

Lulu 20:49

Almost every other teacher is always is all in the planning and it got down to the point that, don't just jump into the lake. Do all the planning and then you'll know how to jump from where to jump, what proceeds what and what exceeds that jump. You know, what what you are wearing, the whole thing. The

Megan 21:07

whole thing.

Lulu 21:08

And of course I got to a stage and I remember I wrote, I think one of my first or second thought leadership pieces that I wrote when I was working in the creative industry and I was doing new business was how. The strategy that I learned in hospitality was equal to the strategy I learned at school in sport.

Megan 21:26

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 21:26

Is equal to business. They're actually exactly the same. And hospitality is much more obviously communication and community building. We're all, there for the sense of purpose. Sport is about team weaknesses, strengths, and who's doing what. And we trust each other implicitly.

Megan 21:41

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 21:41

And that's how we win. That's how we're the best team.'cause we know what all of us are doing when we're doing it before we've even thought about it. Right. We're so well practiced. And then business, it's about amalgamating all those subsets if you like.

Megan 21:53

Yeah.

Lulu 21:53

And making them optimizing them. To make sure that everybody knows the common goal. Everybody knows where they're going, everybody's comfortable in what they're doing. Everybody's got what they need, and boom, the force will be right.

Megan 22:06

Yeah. Amazing. And so, so true. And just even in that example. In different industries or different client sets, you might dial up or down pieces of it, but they all still matter. And understanding that is so important. And like you said, it's applicable across all those things. And also you get these lessons from so many parts of your life. It's not just from what you take in university. It's not just from a job, you know, having done sports when you were young. Those lessons are in there as well as an example. So I think that's also, so important for people to recognize of actually you are learning things from everything you do, and they are applicable in so many other parts of your life things aren't just, life isn't like a bunch of boxes, everything kind of flows and amalgamate across. So you've touched on working in creativity and technology, so maybe. Tell me a little bit about your journey from after seven to eight years in the publishing, you left there. So what's the journey from there to what you're doing now?

Lulu 23:13

So I traveled I was working, in publishing Canary Wharf and it was a personal choice reason that I moved back to where I was living in Gloucestershire and, so then I transitioned into the creative industry. I mean, I still continued a little bit. I did a bit of trade publication work because that's how, where I'd come from. And I ended up being the sales and marketing manager of a research company, that also had trade publications. So I became head of sales for the publications and marketing for the whole group and each of the publications. Because back then sales and marketing tended to be one role. Mm-hmm. Which makes perfect sense. And, but trade publications from National Press is just like such a huge step down and I, it just, it, it, it, it was. It wasn't like, it was just really interesting. I was always busy, I was always doing things'cause we had events, obviously we were publishing, but they were like monthly or bi-monthly publications. It wasn't like a daily publication. Mm-hmm. So the stress levels were, far smoother or, or, or less. But I remember my boss coming to me one day, and this was a big pivot for me. He came to me and said, look, I've basically given you two jobs. You are still not being challenged. And I can feel that, you know, I'm not saying that you're bored because you're not, but I just, I've come across something that I think would be more exciting for you. And he said when you were, when we were our last event we had a big, show in Italy, I think it was. You met a certain individual who's trying to expand his creative agency beyond the uk and he is got a small hub in Australia. He's got, one office in Australia. He's got one office in Bath, which is where we were then. And he was to expand further into North America and Asia. And he and I have been talking and we think you're the right person to do the feasibility for starting that and making that happen and to grow his business because I think it's more, his words were. Your theater, your stage, being in the creative industry, because you have a very holistic way of looking at everything. Again, everything that, I mean, I hadn't, he didn't really understand where I'd come from or mm-hmm. Certainly my personal background. But anyway, and I just said, you know, Richard, are you firing me? And he goes, no, no, no. Not at all. Not, I don't want you to go, but I want you to meet with Andrew and if you like what you hear, then, it is up to you. You, you make the choice. I absolutely don't want you to go, but I just, I feel this is an opportunity that you'll love. We're still friends today. I mean, this is so long ago. And, anyway, he's always been a really good mentor to me. So I met this guy Andrew, and we got on fabulously and I took the job, and that was when I pivoted from publishing into the creative industry. And I worked for this packaging design company, and I drove it from a, I was head of sales, basically. I did the feasibility for opening up in America. Mm-hmm. I then did the feasibility for opening up in Bangkok. Obviously created all the targets for new business. And new relationships, which led me to head up new business across the group. And I had an amazing time because we shifted from being straight packaging design into brand. We shifted into strategy, started selling strategy, which made us a lot more money. We had higher margins, we had faster growth. So it was very challenging and a lot of fun. And I think I spent about eight yeah, probably about eight years at that company before I, moved into what I'd call more brand consulting, but I've not really shifted from there, so to speak, although the pivot I have now as a partner at a strategy, it's a commercial strategy company. I'm still bringing in new business. That's still my role, but I'm now we're selling commercial strategy B2B level, we're not doing B2C. Yes, we understand the B two B2C, or, all the different, I mean, now there's so many different models, tech has branched out. And luckily for me, I guess I was right at the beginning of tech. And saw this happening, the diversification the of sales modeling, of business modeling of, you know, all the different ways of I guess the dissection of audiences. And therefore the shifts and the pivots that companies have to make that really powerful has all come from, I think my learnings in the world of branding and mm-hmm. Communications. So, yeah, it's been interesting.

Megan 27:44

I love that. And we talked about it before of with hindsight, you can see how some of these things maybe laid out or, contributed to the path. Are there any through lines or other connections you see when you look back at this career journey?

Lulu 28:03

Oh, that's a really interesting really interesting question. I think. There's, again, I think my sight lines are fairly different to a lot of people. Like, clever products don't automatically become commercially legible or innovation often suffers from being too broad, too technical, not clearly translated. I think part of what I love about the current job is we are very blatant about clarity. You know, we, start with clarity, momentum, growth, you know, clarity, without real clarity. And therefore you have to identify who your audience is you're just not gonna get growth. And today, so many CEOs are the technical leads. They are the guys that. Unfortunately have all the understanding of the technical side, and of course the end user or the customer or the associated engagement with. Doesn't need to know, any or 75% or 80% of that complexity. They just want to know it works. No one buys a car asking about the engine, beyond the speed or the torque. I mean, that's the most it'll be, it'll be, will it get me from A to B within the range? It needs to be you know, I want my color. Can you just gimme any color I want, do you know what I mean? The brand value has grown to a point where we are subconsciously engaging with brand without realizing. And I think because I've seen the way that has the consumer market has been manipulated. I can take a step back now and go, guys. Stop. What are you actually wanting to deliver? Let's just talk about that. Let's just focus on that. Making complex simple is actually the hardest thing to do, and nobody does it brilliantly. It's a bit like, I wish I still had this video. I remember years and years and years ago, probably when we first started doing videos. Somebody published this. They were basically comparing how Microsoft tell you on their product boxes, every single detail, detail, all the

Megan 30:06

specifications. Yeah,

Lulu 30:08

everything right. And you have to be a whiz to actually understand what they're saying. Whereas Apple just go, this is what it's gonna make you feel. And all it is, is a person with headphones and walking. We all know that. They've obviously got music coming out of that. We know that it's therefore transportable. It's doesn't have to be plugged in, blah, blah, blah. All these, they, they literally, apple advertise. So that you can work it out without confusing you with having to make decisions based on everything they put in front of you and confusing your brain. And they just did it so well. Just, I mean, Steve Jobs was just a genius. And this ad showed you how Microsoft do it versus how Apple does it making Microsoft look like such idiots because they're trying to prove that they're really smart, but in proving they're really smart, it becomes too complicated for anyone to understand. It's a bit like nowadays, you know, we're talking to somebody and they go, yeah, we want investment. And the investor needs to know every single technical detail about how this drone is created. And the power that comes into it, how, what the energy is and how we create the energy to, no, no, no, the investor wants to invest in drones, so just give them the, you know what I mean? Probably a really bad analogy, but Yeah.

Megan 31:17

I think the other thing. I, what I love about that example is that it's kind of two sides. Like on one side they're giving too much information. On the other side, they don't give enough. So it's like we wanna give you all the technical stuff'cause that's what people care about'cause that's what they care about and they're really proud of it as they should be. But most people don't understand. And then on the other side, there's an assumption of oh, this is easy and straightforward and everyone will understand what it does because I do. And so they just assume that people know that part and but that's what they need the technical for and it's actually you need to flip it the other way. They don't need to know the technical, but you have to help show them what it's going to do.

Lulu 31:57

Yeah. The problem usually isn't in the intelligence of the business.

Megan 32:00

Yeah.

Lulu 32:01

It's whether the outside world can actually understand why it matters.

Megan 32:04

A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Lulu 32:06

That is the critical, isn't it?

Megan 32:08

Yeah.

Lulu 32:08

And I think that's what tech and innovation led businesses have really taught me, you know?

Megan 32:12

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 32:12

I I mean, I say to people, I hear myself saying quite a lot. You dunno what you don't know. And if I'm talking to the CEO, you have no idea that there's so much, you know, that you actually don't need to translate what you're saying and nobody else is aware of any of that you know,

Megan 32:33

true.

Lulu 32:34

Stop with the mess.

Megan 32:36

Yeah.

Lulu 32:37

Brilliant.

Megan 32:39

So the other favorite question I have whenever I talk to people about their career journeys is another kind of going back in time a little bit. But with the perspective of what do you think 15 year olds, 16-year-old Lulu would think about what you're doing now?

Lulu 32:55

Gosh, that is, such an emotive question, isn't it? Because when you get to my age, you know, the regrets seem to sort of pile to the top or bubble to the top in a way that I wish I could go back and go, I should have been a vet, I should be working with animals.'cause animals don't talk back. I think. The biggest frustration, let me just explain what that means. The biggest frustration I have is I know horses really well. Horses heal themselves and heal others. Mm-hmm. They, they heal each other. They have this amazing holistic strength that is unspoken. And any people in the horse world know this. Humans have the same agility, they have the same potential. And because I'm a half glass full kind of person, and I have this. Ability to see the best in everybody and the best alternative like position for what that company could do or person could do. I'm already charging straight ahead with what can be done.

Megan 33:55

Hmm.

Lulu 33:55

And my biggest frustration is that often. And we can obviously, dissect the, often the size of it, but often the founder is not only the creator of brilliance, but also the suffocate of brilliance. And. I remember sport probably teaches you this best. You know, the team captain is not the best on the pitch necessarily. The team captain is the one that gets the best out of everybody on the pitch. In business, the CEO is supposed to be the person that gets the best out of everybody in the company, not the founder of the sub company. And I think that is a flaw in us humans and I think people that do not. Have never been in a team sport, that will not resonate with well with them because they've always had to support themselves. They've always done things for themselves, so there is no alternative. People that are in sport tend to be team players, and they're the guys in the room that will go, okay, right. You do that, you do that, you do that. You know, what are we missing? You know how, you know, you'll see it in a workshop environment. You'll see the facilitator is probably more likely to be, I'm generalizing horribly, but. Will be the person that offers up strengths and weaknesses without realizing they're doing that. And I think, I think my 15-year-old self understood that I could do that. I can see the strength and the weaknesses in everybody and see it with a very positive spin. And I can orchestrate. Greatness by everybody. And I have always tried to do that massively in every role I've done. Being the salesperson in the room is quite often an insular role because you are basically setting other people's expertise, so I think I have done what, what I wanted to do in a very non-linear way.

Megan 35:43

Yeah.

Lulu 35:43

But, I don't think I have personally. Gone down the routes that I may have wanted to in financial gain. That's my biggest regret. I haven't made as much money for myself as I've made for other people.

Megan 35:59

Yeah, that's always a hard, a hard one. When we work for other people, we're always making money for them, first and foremost. So, that's a, it's a complicated problem. It

Lulu 36:11

is.

Megan 36:14

So with that in mind, if you could go back in time and give yourself advice, whether at that age or at another point in your journey, is there a piece of advice you wish you could go back and give yourself?

Lulu 36:27

Gosh, ooh. I think it's always to look deeply in the choices you make and make sure you are paying attention to what you are gonna get out of it. As much as what you think you can be delivering for others would probably be. My answer because I think I remember somebody turned around once and asked me quite a profound question, that led me to question my position. And so I sort of said, why did you let me do this? Because I'd been doing 18 hour days or whatever and work myself to the bone, et cetera. And this person turned around and said, because you could. That's when I realized that there's a loss of mental abuse out there. You know, just because one can doesn't mean one should.

Megan 37:21

Yeah.

Lulu 37:21

Just because you are able and capable, because you've been educated really well, you've got a can-do attitude, you've got other abilities. You know, your parents gave you freedom and you are feral and this, that and the other. I was speaking obviously about myself, but doesn't mean you should, right? Mm-hmm. So I think, you know, I was never taught. To be in a cage. I was always taught to fight for the next level of what I wanted to achieve. And I never really stopped to go, what's the cost of that? It's fine when you are young, free, and single because you literally will eat when you're hungry and sleep when you're tired, right? But when you then, well, certainly as a woman, again, I'm female. I'm talking about myself here. When you have children. There's a massive energy void that nobody prepares you for.

Megan 38:11

Yeah.

Lulu 38:11

And when you are very high energy level like I am, you know, I've got so much energy, my body and mind I think didn't understand that I needed to refill that. And again, nobody supports you in that. Yeah. Nobody holds your hand. And says, stop your low in minerals. Stop. You need to boost up your vitamin, stop, your immune system might be slightly altered. You know, whatever the things that I still today I think we're learning, but. I literally, I had a business meeting during labor whilst in the hot tub.

Megan 38:44

Wow.

Lulu 38:45

And that was perfectly fine as far as I was concerned. I was completely fine with that. You know, I'm not asking for sympathy.

Megan 38:51

Yeah.

Lulu 38:51

I was fine with it'cause I could do it. You know, at that meeting, I can remember one person in the meeting, I can't remember the other two guys in the meeting. It was back in the creative industry. We used Skype a lot and I obviously switched the video off'cause I was naked in the hot tub, right?

Megan 39:04

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 39:05

I was in labor and, it's a birthing pool. Sorry.

Megan 39:08

Yeah.

Lulu 39:08

And anyway, during the meeting, this guy says, I recognize that breathing. Are you doing, hypnobirthing practicing or breathing? You know, I went, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then this other guy puts two and two together and says. Are you in labor? Are you giving birth? Are you in a pool? And I went, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, why are we, you know, let's get on with it. Let's get on with the meeting. And it's not, the baby's not coming now. I mean, I'm just, you know, I'm, it's early days. I can't remember what the minutes were, et cetera. But anyway, and then there's another guy goes, are you naked? Naked? And I just, it suddenly occurred to me that he was more worried about the fact that I was naked whilst in a meeting. Nobody stopped to go, oh my God, you are in labor. You seriously, you know, because of, because I'm of the mentality, well, in the southern hemisphere they stop, have a baby and carry on. It's, it doesn't, you can you do.

Megan 40:06

Yeah.

Lulu 40:07

And it's just, that is the most extraordinary thing about humans. And I guess why we have long-term partners because it's the responsibility of the partner to, in theory, support the person to say, stop recharge, you are gonna break

Megan 40:22

And that's the thing the world will take as much as we'll give it. Until we'd have nothing left to give. And ideally you don't get to that point. And most of us, myself included, you learn the hard way. Now, I don't have a story that extreme. But I had similar thing of when I hit burnout, my first reaction was anger at the company of like, I have given you everything. What have you given me? And then took a couple steps back and wait, did they actually ask me to give everything?

Lulu 40:51

Yeah, exactly.

Megan 40:52

They didn't really, they took it'cause I gave it.

Lulu 40:55

Yeah.

Megan 40:55

But they didn't ask me to. Yeah. So what would happen if I gave a little bit less?

Lulu 41:00

But how are you supposed to know that until it happens? Because you know, at school you are taught to give, give, give, give. You're never. It, it's a very fundamental fault line, if you like, with education. It's literally, education is still in my mind, the process of, you've got three kids in a room, the tutor's teaching them something, and then they take them outside, teach'em about nature, and then they, you know, and all they've done is amplify the numbers, but they've kept the curriculum rigid. Because it's all about controlling the children. It's not actually about education and building leaders for tomorrow. Yeah. And that's the fundamental problem and the fear, from the establishment is how do we apply AI to this? You know, we are now fast forward, we've got technology and what they should be asking themselves. How do we enable teachers to be the teachers that are needed for humans to be tomorrow's leaders? Not?

Megan 41:52

Mm-hmm.

Lulu 41:53

You know, so we can use AI now to establish seven different ways of learning based on seven different ways of interpreting. You know, I've got a really fast brain. I don't need repetition. Yeah. I've got a really slow brain. I need absolutely no repetition. All these different ways. there's seven attitudes, there's probably seven different ways of learning and teaching. Let's look at AI and see how to use that to our advantage and for some bizarre reason, we are not, again, stepping out and saying how can ai. Enable us to cost, optimize a new educational system. Everybody's too busy trying to grapple with, what's right in front of them of look. That's just a small shift. Short, small. Let's not be holistic about it. It's just, I dunno, I think my, I dunno my unexpected career journey I guess if I was to surmise a little bit. Is the, what looked like a series of pivots was actually the repeated application of the same lens. I started by learning how to understand a business as a whole. Hospitality, not just that, not just like the front end, but the experience, the operations, brand, revenue, the whole thing together. And since then I've been, I've been drawn to organizations regardless of sectors, if you like, at moments of change. Possibility and helping them get a clear understanding of how to grow. Not through my own, by the way. You know, I use really smart people like at IMCC. We tap into planners who are the biggest brains of all right, to cut through, and simplify that message, to deliver that to disseminate and simplify, to get to that monumental pivot or that change or whatever they need to do in a very, in a simple, capable, solution pathway. That, that makes sense for everybody on side. And if something's missing, you know, we plug and if it's not so the holistic. You know, the beginning to end, to middle to now, it's actually kind of similar. It's just the labels have changed a little bit. Yeah. And I think, I dunno anticipating your last question really, but I think my advice to anybody is as long as you're really enjoying what you do and you understand clearly what it is that makes you happy, don't worry too much about which, how you make that decision because your gut in my belief, is always right. You are always, for you. Yeah. I know we take. Advice from our friends and stuff, but our friends only ever give us tainted advice because it's based on what they've done. Your gut is the only one that knows what you are about as an individual, and you are the only one brave enough. If you're brave enough to ask the question, then be brave enough to deliver and get stuck.

Megan 44:46

And really lean into those things that are Yeah. Exciting or you're curious about, or, you just get, fulfillment or joy out of lean into those things more and you can keep finding new pathways to find those things and not overthink some of the, traditional kind of. Parameters. And as you said, advice is good and it's good to take it. I think it's good to take it on board, but it's ultimately your decision. And as you said, everyone's advice is filtered through their own experience, their own. Ambitions and desires, which are different. Everyone's are different. So yeah, I think that's super, super powerful. And kind of the other thing you were saying just before that, which I think you know, fits in to this wider piece of advice is it, it's also a team sport. So almost everything you do to some level is a team sport. You don't have to be good at everything. It's find the other people who are good at the things that you lack. So again, it's another way to lean into things that you enjoy, your strengths.'cause you don't have to be good at everything. Just, find that network or partners or people you wanna work with who can fill in those other pieces.

Lulu 46:05

Exactly. Exactly. And again, education is at fault, right? Because when we're educated, we have to be good at everything. That's the lesson that we have early on. Right? We have to excel at every single subject, you know? What do you mean you can't pass all 10? And oh, by the way, you have to choose three. Well, based on what, because you haven't given me any understanding of. What I'm really good at because you made me be good at everything.

Megan 46:28

And I think even, and this maybe is changing a little bit'cause I've seen it a little bit in my own career, but a lot of training in corporations also, or feedback you get from your manager is really focused on like weaknesses in how you improve in those areas. And it's not to say that you don't need to improve in areas. Of course we all do, but most of the time in my experience and opinion, if you focus on your strengths, a lot of times they make up for some of those weaknesses or they give you a different way to do something.

Lulu 47:00

Yeah.

Megan 47:00

That means the weakness doesn't necessarily come into play in the same way or what have you. So like I think it's that sort of traditional mindset of self-improvement by focusing on weaknesses. I don't think it works, but it still exists a lot today as feedback or training or, and as you said, it's very ingrained in the education system.

Lulu 47:24

Yeah, absolutely.

Megan 47:27

So we have done a lot of looking back. So I always like to end with a look forward and what are you looking forward to in the future? Short term, long term? What are you excited about? What are you hopeful for?

Lulu 47:42

Gosh. I think a lot of us are probably. Realizing that our working lives are gonna be much longer than they perhaps were as far as the government's concerned, but obviously the government's always the last person to have any realizations or insights into what's happening in the present and the future. I think one excitement I have is the fact that, I've got another, potentially 50 years of working, and I think I'm well whilst I might have been born and very young, early on, very insightful. I think I'm actually sometimes a little bit with regards to how little I feel I've done in the time that I've had. And I think I'm sort of, I don't know. I just feel like I'm entering a new. A new chapter of my book of applying a loss of my learnings now. And I'm getting real clarity and I'm managing my own credibility to achieve my own growth, which is ironic because that's what my business partner has as our strap light. it's clarity, credibility, growth, right? Because he says, no company can grow without clarity. And. And Clarity delivers the credibility and with the credibility comes growth. Right. And that makes perfect sense. But if you then mirror that to humans, right? Because we're all individual brands, I believe. Yeah. You know, obviously together the brands, build towards, the team of wherever you are. But I've, I've recently met a collection of people who are absolutely brilliant and they, they all support each other and they all work together really well, and they all, you. To your point actually, they talk about the positive. No one talks about the negative because together we form the positive,

Megan 49:28

mm-hmm.

Lulu 49:28

If somebody needs to do something, they'll know someone that can deliver against that something. And so there is no negative, right? We just, we lean in when we are needed and otherwise we don't. Right. So I think the future for me is. To be brutally honest, I want to work with people that understand the value that I can bring, the value that we can bring, and I don't want. Any narcissist in my world ever again. You know, I literally want to surround myself with people that want to build together that, that has a common goal, not a unique individual, selfish, self-righteous goal. Mm-hmm. Because those people, I will give to. And that was a mistake. You know, that was a massive mistake. So for me it's about realigning back almost my youth. It's team, it's, you know, all of this and it's, working with like-minded people who will all, all support one another to get to the commonplace because look, it's actually much simpler than it, I think. I think humans overcomplicate everything.

Megan 50:35

Yeah.

Lulu 50:36

I think the speech is the worst of all the senses. And I think we should listen more and smell more and talk less.

Megan 50:47

I mean, it's true. Ironic

Lulu 50:48

considering

Megan 50:49

Your podcast. Yeah, that's true. But it is a good point of, I'm actually, I'm reading this book right now and there's, I'm just thinking of something it said in the book. So in the book, it's a science fictionist, one of the characters has the ability in his world to speak telepathically. But he is in a world where they don't have that technique and he's met someone he thinks he could teach the technique to, and the person was like, I don't understand what the point of it would be like. Why wouldn't you just say it then? And they're like, because when you speak, you can lie. When you're speaking telepathically, you can't really, you can't lie. and I think that's kind of. Goes to what you're saying when we're talking, we're always sort of balancing all these things like, what are they gonna think about me? How am I gonna word it? Do I really wanna tell them this? Do I really wanna tell the truth? And. It is in the listening and all the other senses where the truth lies.

Lulu 51:48

Yeah.

Megan 51:49

So yeah, I, I definitely hear what

Lulu 51:50

you, you're saying No, Rob saying, right. I mean, yeah. I met someone recently and he turned around and he said, you are really pure. And I went, I am honest. I get it. Of course I am because I only, I don't wanna waste time anymore, you know?

Megan 52:02

Yeah.

Lulu 52:03

I know I can help you, you know, you trust me, I've got to deliver X, Y, and Z meet, you know, introduce you to people, this, that, and the other. But, I'm being honest, whether you and your counterparts board whatever are gonna believe as well, that's your problem. But this is a good starting point. It's like animals. The oldest adage in the world, isn't it? You know, animals walk past each other and don't do anything. They walk past each other, they wag their tail. Although they walk past each other and fight, they know instinctively they don't have to talk about it. And humans, just for some bizarre reason, we have this level of expectation where we should, like everybody we meet, no, let it go. Not

Megan 52:40

realistic,

Lulu 52:41

It's not realistic. You know, your chemistry with me is x. And your chemistry with somebody else is X plus two. That's okay. Do you know what I mean? It's okay. Let's just be honest about it. let's build the teams that, that, that ultimately make everybody happy and commercially effective, et cetera, et cetera, and just let go of the people that are that are gonna dampen that.

Megan 53:03

Yeah.

Lulu 53:04

Because they'll be better off somewhere else anyway.

Megan 53:06

A hundred percent. If it's not a fit, that doesn't mean you're not good at your job or you don't have the capability, it's just you might be in the wrong place. And I've definitely, definitely seen that. And I think the other thing you were saying too of our careers are going to likely be longer than advertised. And so yes, I prioritize working with people that you're aligned with that understand your strengths, that you understand your capabilities as a team. Then it is an exciting opportunity to be able to work longer.'cause a lot of time work can be really fun, but it's when you are in those other situations where it's not and it's draining. So if we're gonna have to, you know, work to a hundred, let's find ways to actually enjoy it.

Lulu 53:54

Exactly. Absolutely right. You nailed it.

Megan 53:59

Awesome. Well, thank you so much Lulu, for sharing your career journey and amazing advice and insight as well. I really appreciate it and yeah, I'm excited to share it with the world.

Lulu 54:11

Thank you very much.

Megan 54:14

Awesome.

54:16

I always enjoyed chatting with Lulu and I loved hearing more about her career journey. A few things that really stuck with me from our conversation were first take action. After a frustrating eight months in the industry, she studied for, she took action and marched into a recruitment office and ended up changing industries and finding the challenge she was looking for. Two Clarity, Lulu seems to have always had an understanding of what her skills and capabilities are and that they have value. It's possible she is now able to better articulate the value of those skills, but to me it feels like they have always been a solid core, that she has been connected to. Three lessons come from everywhere. Lulu's grandfather took her under his wing and she learned from that experience first with horses and then sitting in rooms with him. But she also talked about what she learned from sport and from the Swiss approach to hospitality in addition to everything she learned from her career directly. I also love Lulu's advice to herself of take a minute to understand what's in it for you so that you don't give until you have nothing left. And I would add what's in it for you might be different in different situations, but give more in areas that give you energy and then figure out the boundaries in the areas that drain you. thank you for listening to The Unexpected Career Podcast. Please follow, share, and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The Unexpected Career Podcast is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.