Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast

#1 - Enneagram Wisdom for Better Relationships with Timmy (9) and Ariel (2) Miller

• Elyse Regier

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I'm thrilled to have my good friends on this first episode - friends who know a ton about their own Enneagram types and have lots of good stuff to teach us!

Welcome to Timmy and Ariel, who share from their vast Enneagram experiences—Timmy as a Type 9 and Ariel as a Type 2. These two have done a lot of inner work to understand themselves better. Their insights reveal how understanding their Enneagram types has enriched their personal lives and marriage. Together, we explore the distinct characteristics of Types 2 and 9, explaining how these types process the world, manage conflicts, and nurture relationships. 

Ariel and Timmy recommended some great resources that have guided their own journeys! Check out their recommendations below. 
 
⚡ HIGHLIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE ⚡

  • The Two-Nine marriage
  • Timmy & Ariel's love story 💌
  • 2's need to understand who they are apart from other people
  • 9's need to be disrupted in order to fully engage & take action
  • DIFFERENCES between 2 and 9 - this section is great for people unsure if they're a 2 or 9! 


📚 RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE 📚 


Timmy Miller is a panelist at the upcoming event Enneagram at Work 👩🏼‍🏫

Join us at this event to learn about the 9 types at work & discover how you can get along better with coworkers.

  • Saturday, October 12th
  • Valparaiso, IN
  • 1-4pm

GET TICKETS HERE 🎟️

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For resource recommendations, click here.

The Road Back to You by Ian Cron- start here to find your type

Links for Towards Eden Enneagram 🌿
Instagram
Facebook
Website

Email me 📩
elyse@towardsedenenneagram.com

Get my FREE Guide to the 9 Enneagram Types 🌱
This guide is a great quick-reference to help you remember the types.

Speaker 1:

Before we get into this episode, I have a quick story to share with you. Several years ago I worked in a school setting. It was a private alternative school and the majority of our students didn't fit into the public school system and so that's why they came to us. And it was really hard. During those years at that job I was learning a bit about the Enneagram, but I'd actually mistyped myself as an eight when really I was a one, so I wasn't really doing a lot of good Enneagram work at that point. So I was getting frustrated daily because the students in my classroom just didn't really care about the rules, and I also had coworkers who didn't seem very bothered by our students who weren't following the rules. And, of course, as an Enneagram one. This was a huge trigger for me and I was assuming that everyone saw the world like I do as in. Oh, everybody wants to do our best to follow the rules and to be good, but the truth was everybody wasn't seeing the world like I was, which I didn't understand at the time, and so I was frustrated and I felt pretty alone and pretty misunderstood towards the end of being in that job. The problem was I didn't know myself well enough to understand my type one fixation on rules, and I didn't understand why I was so bothered. I didn't understand why my coworkers weren't getting upset at the same things that I was, and actually some of them seem to be thriving in an environment. That was really hard for me. And, honestly, it wasn't until after I had a mental breakdown at work and then eventually quit that job that I started learning a lot about myself as a type one and I started to understand why I had slid into a place of such extreme stress at that job. If I had known the Enneagram and understood my type back then, and if I had understood my coworkers Enneagram types, it would have made a huge difference. I actually do wonder if that knowledge would have allowed me to stay in that job longer instead of burning out, if I had simply understood a lot more about my type. So I want you to have a better experience than that. I want you to understand your Enneagram type so that you know your stress triggers, you can tell when you're moving into an unhealthy place at work and you can pivot, understand your stress and then pivot into a place where you can be more healthy and thriving at work. And I also want you to understand the nine different lenses that your co-workers are wearing, so that you can communicate better with them. So this fall I'm hosting an event called Enneagram at Work, and at this event you'll learn how to leverage the Enneagram to become more successful at your job and, hopefully, how to avoid falling into burnout like I did. We're also going to have a panel of three professionals who use the Enneagram in their jobs so that you can hear examples of how this tool is impacting real workplaces. Timmy Miller, who you are about to hear on this episode, is actually one of the panelists for this event.

Speaker 1:

I hope you can join me in Valparaiso, indiana. Bring a friend or a coworker with you on Saturday, october 12th. There is a link to register in the show notes. See you there. And now on to the episode. I would like to say I really appreciate you saying that. Do you have anything to say about? Really appreciate you saying that. Do you have anything to?

Speaker 2:

say about how I look with headphones on?

Speaker 1:

It looks like you were born with them. It looks like you were born this way, and welcome to the show You're listening to Towards Eden, an Enneagram podcast. The Enneagram is a tool that helps us tell our stories. I'm Elise, and I'm here to teach you all about the Enneagram, so this tool is accessible for you. I am here today with my friends, timmy and Ariel, and Timmy and Ariel and I have had a lot of great conversations about the Enneagram, so I'm excited to have them on to share with us about what they have learned in their marriage and just individually through Enneagram types. So I would love for each of you to share a bit about who you are, what you do and your Enneagram type.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. Thank you for having us on, elise. My name is Timmy. I am currently serving as Director of Human Resources at Chick-fil-A in Valparaiso, indiana, where I've been there for almost three years. Some other things about myself I have a master's in organizational leadership. I am a former athlete, occasionally current athlete. I played soccer all growing up and played in high school and in college at Taylor University and played in high school and in college at Taylor University, which is where Ariel and I met, and I think that's a pretty. Yeah, that's a good start for me what Enneagram number?

Speaker 3:

I identify as Enneagram 9. Hi, thanks for having us on. I'm Ariel. I am an Enneagram 2. I'm currently a mental health therapist. I do marriage and family therapy out of Valparaiso, indiana. Yeah, I have my master's in marriage and family therapy from Wheaton College and, like Timmy said, we met at Taylor.

Speaker 1:

Did you guys know about your Enneagram numbers when you met?

Speaker 2:

We did not know. So can I say, when I discovered the Enneagram numbers when you met? We did not know, so can I, can I tell, say when I discovered the Enneagram? So I discovered it first in 2015. I had heard about it a little bit here and there, but I feel like that was before Enneagram hysteria and before it had become common knowledge to many, and so I first heard about it. We graduated in 2015 from Taylor, so I think just after graduation, soon after I read Road Back to you by Ian Morgan Cron, life changer. That's when I discovered I was an Enneagram nine. And then I came to Ariel and I said there's this thing called Enneagram, read this book. It was a quick read. I, yeah, I combed it cover to cover and like a few hours, so that that's how I discovered it. And then talk to Ariel you, I believe, right past the book to you, and you read it.

Speaker 3:

It was a life changer for you. It felt deeply stressful for me at first.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we had very different experiences. For me, I read the book and immediately knew felt a bit like a gut punch and I was like, oh, I'm an Enneagram nine and it began to explain many things about the past of my life, but also present too, in terms of what was going on and both personal things and in our relationship. And, like you said, you had a different experience with it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you kind of came to me like emotional, like this gives words to my experience that I never had before. So I kind of unconsciously had that expectation going into the book.

Speaker 2:

I set a very high bar.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it was not the same for me at all, which is okay. Timmy pointed out earlier that that's good that we had different experiences of it, I think, because it just kind of speaks to how people can have different experiences and learning their number. But I read the book and I identified with a lot. I think I kind of knew from the beginning I was in the heart or feelings triad but I was kind of unsure where I landed. I feel like Enneagram people have said that those numbers are the most similar out of all Like I don't know, maybe that's inaccurate Two, three and four. Two, three and four, yeah, just in ways that they operate with feelings or some of the core things. So that felt hard for me. My journey was kind of messaging lots of different friends asking what do you think I am? They all said different numbers and then I felt like I was having an existential crisis. Timmy later found did you find the path between us, suzanne Stabile, kind of the sequel to Road Back to you.

Speaker 2:

I think Road Back to you led me there. Naturally, I think that book came out around the same time or a little bit later.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and that was the life changer for me. Pretty early on in the book referencing Enneagram twos, it said twos don't know who they are without other people telling them. And for me I feel like my journey was kind of about nine months of going back and forth between a few numbers in the heart triad and I had this big aha of thinking back to, you know, messaging all my different friends and them saying different numbers. I think started to make a little bit more sense in that realm because as a two I'm unconsciously and sometimes consciously thinking about what other people need. And my therapist at the time kind of encouraged me to think through my relationships with those friends and kind of asked the question of is it possible that you are kind of leaning into your wing three and kind of taking on aspects of different numbers to kind of help that front those friends out in different ways? And I think that felt really helpful for me and eyeopening. And yeah, and I landed on I'm a two.

Speaker 1:

I think this is a brilliant story about a two, the path for a two, figuring out their number, and I know you've shared the story with me before. But can you give a couple of those examples you talk about, of like what your different friends thought your number might be?

Speaker 3:

So one said six, another said seven. And I kind of just thought through those relationships a bit. And the one who said six I think they had a lot of relationships in their life but I think kind of the purpose I served in that relationship was being a really steady, loyal friend that no matter what, no matter what they did, that I was still there, no matter what they did, that I was still there. And so I think to them that kind of spoke to feeling like a six, which makes sense. And then I had another friend that was really struggling with some mental health during college and I would always kind of be the rallier going, you know, hey, let's go out, let's go do something fun, let's get out of your room, let's, you know, do this or that. And so they I think in that sense kind of placed me as a seven because I was just kind of rallying and trying to go and do something fun.

Speaker 3:

And then I had another friend kind of pinpoint more of the three space, which is I was in between two and three for a while, and this was a friend in grad school and so kind of a lot of what they saw of me was this like very intense work ethic, working hard, seeing a lot of value in and finding kind of my space in the three arena, because for me that felt like work um, and so yeah, all those things were deeply confusing because those are so different um, but yeah, that question from my therapist and reading that part in the book kind of really helped me to kind of place that yeah and timmy, do you remember any one or two specific things from the road back to you?

Speaker 1:

That was the aha moment for you, realizing you were a nine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think you know I had always been interested with just learning more about, you know, personality tests and things like that.

Speaker 2:

I'm trying to think back, like nine, 10 years ago. What were the, I think, when I got to the nine? The fear of conflicts obviously that's one of the things you hear about. Really, you know one of the main two things about Enneagram nines that felt really revealing to me, almost embarrassing, like oh my gosh, of course I hate conflict Like that makes so much sense. Of course I hate conflict Like that makes so much sense, I think. Also the Enneagram nine, I believe in the book and other places as well, but it describes the nine as sitting kind of at the top and sharing some of the elements of others and kind of that merging element, and I'd felt that both in present and past relationships and I really identified with that, whether it be in my family or just as a core part of who I was and who I am, and so those were a couple elements that I remember as kind of being telltale signs that I was an Enneagram 9.

Speaker 1:

So when we look at the Enneagram 2 and Enneagram 9, enneagram 2s are sometimes called the helper or the servant, and this is a type who their desire is to be loved and to earn love by helping and serving and caring for others, and they're very good at reading other people's feelings and other people's needs and meeting those. And then the fear for the 2 is of not being loved, of being unworthy of love or unlovable. And then for the nine the nine the fear is of conflict or of losing connection with others, and what an Enneagram nine wants is to maintain peace in their environment and maintain peace within themselves, and so they do that by merging and by accommodating what other people in their life want. I'm interested what you guys think about this.

Speaker 1:

I have a lot of clients who I'm teaching the Enneagram to. They get lost between two and nine. I've had quite a few people say I think I might be a two or I might be a nine and I'm not really sure which one. So could you guys each speak to what you think would be some helpful distinctions of two versus nine?

Speaker 3:

That's a really good question. I might need to ponder some, but first off the bat, on our way here, we were talking about how we both hate conflict, about how we both hate conflict, and so I think that feels really confusing because in that sense we look similar, but I think through a lot of our Enneagram work we've identified that the reasons why we hate it feel different. So if you want to speak to that, ponder some more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Well, I think for twos. I think that even the way that you talked about your Enneagram discovery was very much so. You went to other people, you understood yourself through relationships.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

My frame of reference is through others. Yes, I think for the nine. For myself that wasn't as much my experience and I think when it comes to conflict, you know, my fear is that like disconnection, loss of the relationship, and I think it's a little bit different for the two and I don't know if you want to speak to that a bit more.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, I think. At least, when you said earlier unlovable, I had an aha moment. I hadn't connected before, which was, I think, for me. I fear that engaging with conflict could equate to me being unlovable in the eyes of others. So, yeah, but I would definitely say, I think, the others versus the internal piece, with the two versus the nine, I think is a really helpful distinction because I wouldn't have been thinking from that frame of reference, like you said, with knowing you're a nine and kind of going oh, for me this all feels really internal, the internal fight that I'm battling, whereas for me I'm thinking without even realizing it, I'm thinking through the reference of others around me or who I'll be with or which, thinking back now, should have been a telltale sign.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, I think that's yeah it was a journey, but yeah.

Speaker 1:

Let's let's touch on one other difference between the two and the nine before we move on. I'm just hoping to provide a little more clarity for listeners who might be in between two and nine. And so the other big difference we can talk about is that nines are sitting in the gut triad, which means they experience the world primarily first through their body and their gut, before their feelings and before their mind, and then twos are sitting in that feelings triad where they're experiencing the world first through their feelings and their heart, before their head or their thinking and before their body and their gut. So I guess I could ask if you can think of even any specific examples in your relationship together where you can really see that gut versus heart difference come out.

Speaker 2:

Yes, come out. Yes, you know, I think early on in our relationship that was something that we identified that like, okay, we're going to have to work on this, and even in like premarital counseling. I think it came up that Ariel has enough emotions outward emotion for the both of us and so for me, I had to be careful to not just sit back and be like, okay, you, you fill the space with your emotions and I'll just sit here and not have emotions or not have anger, which for me, especially in my Enneagram discovery journey that was confusing to me, Like how could a nine be in the gut? Or anger triad, Of course. Then I discovered that I repress anger and I was like, oh, that makes more sense.

Speaker 1:

That feels right.

Speaker 2:

But then for Ariel, who kind of outwardly shows that emotion, I think it's been a journey for me to to not show up with anger or emotion, like choosing to to bring it to the table, and then I think you can speak to this too. But I think you've I've grown in that way and you've grown in maybe letting that happen and maybe pushing pause to whatever extent you can on the outward emotions to provide space, not trying to create a dam, to not do that, but at the same time just making sure that there's space so that we can meet each other halfway dating relationship.

Speaker 3:

I think I, if something would happen with Timmy, I would feel the emotions of that, not even recognizing that. Maybe, like you were saying that, maybe you felt repressed to them or or unaware of them, asleep to them maybe is a better way to say that Um, and then that kind of started to come out more the longer that we were dating. And then, um, you know, premarital and learning more about the Enneagram, kind of going, oh, like I'm not only feeling my feelings but I'm feeling yours and I'm bringing them forth. Um, and as the two nine, um, that was super easy for me to do and so super easy for Timmy to let me do, and we got caught in that cycle a lot.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I have a brief, brief example or story of this. So we have a two nine, I think, a couple two nine, a couple of friends and one of them. So he is a two and his wife is a nine, and he was saying that on the rare moments where his wife, the Enneagram Nine, has emotion, he will like put his face like an inch to hers and just be like sitting there staring at her, being like I must, like I must inhale this moment, because this feels rare and like I can't believe this is happening no-transcript.

Speaker 3:

I'm asking you to show up. I'm asking you to show up for this, like I'm here, I'm ready, and that was through the help of reading some of the Enneagram books that we've already referenced, of just kind of this idea of maybe retreating, and I'm all ready for it with my feelings, um, and that's harder for you to sit with.

Speaker 1:

Thanks. That is a lot of really helpful details and I think I think one good takeaway is you you might be a two, more so than a nine, if you have those easier access to feelings on a regular basis.

Speaker 2:

One last thing before we move on. But for me, like emotions felt like not part of me, they felt like a I don't know, like a long lost friend that had gone away, and my like anger or sadness, I almost had to like go find it on a journey and be like oh, there, there it is. So for me that was just a wild thing, and I think for an Enneagram too. I just think it's a totally different dynamic and that really does feel like they're right here with me always.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, annoyingly so they are me. They are me Annoyingly so, but I feel like.

Speaker 2:

I had to teach myself, like how to have emotion or how to be angry, and what does that look like healthy?

Speaker 1:

I feel like I'm still on that journey, but it's a gradual two steps forward, one step back kind of thing, I just want to comment no-transcript, and so hearing Timmy say like yeah, emotions used to be hard and feel like this long lost friend, but in order to do my growth work, it meant doing the hard work of figuring out my relationship with emotions, and I mean we could go on for every number. But there's work that every number can do and it's not, it's not acceptable in Enneagram work to just say this is who I am and this is my excuse for not, for not trying or for not improving or not growing.

Speaker 3:

And I had to do the opposite of Timmy. I had to kind of put on my thinking cap and just recently we were listening to a podcast with Suzanne Stabile and she kind of talked about how, for twos, they're really focused on feeling and doing and they were pressed thinking and so when we would have conflict or situations like this, timmy would bring in thinking and I would immediately get annoyed. We're not thinking right now, we're feeling.

Speaker 2:

Which feels like a waste of time to me.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, but you know, I would often kind of bring up you know we can't move forward, we can't take productive steps until we feel first.

Speaker 3:

And I know that's in general not always true, but I do think that he has taught me.

Speaker 3:

The value in thinking, I see, is each individual has their own strengths and the other individual has their own strengths and their opposite, and if we can find ways to empower them, to put those two together, you could be quite the dynamic duo. And I think that the Enneagram really helped us with that, where he kind of taught me you know, hey, we might need to think through some of these things, and I kind of taught him you know, hey, we might need to feel some of these things in order for our thinking to be more productive. And sometimes for me, I need to think before the feeling is productive, and so I think that just gave us really helpful language to be able to kind of find a good center, kind of what you're talking about it's not just oh, I'm a two, I'm a nine, and now we carry on and we do these things, but then also we're trying to work towards integrating some of those skills and learning from each other, which is really cool.

Speaker 1:

Switching gears a bit. I want to know how you guys fell in love and if you can even remember like I would love to hear thinking back. What are things about the other person that attracted you initially, and maybe you can see it through an Enneagram lens, even though you didn't have Enneagram language back then.

Speaker 3:

Timmy, you start.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so yeah. So we met at Taylor University, which I think we said already, but you know, I was an athlete and so everyone knew who he was.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I would describe my journey as the first three and a half years were my first college experience and was always playing soccer and my social life wasn't maybe as important as it was to Ariel, and we met early in college and we're friends first, which can be unique. I know some people's relationship is, you know, they started dating and maybe became friends later, but for us that was always the foundation and I think that's a cool part of our story. That's not the way again it has to be for everybody, but we knew each other as friends and really throughout the journey, like once I got through my soccer journey, which ended like November of my senior year. Really, that second journey is when I was able to be like, hmm, wow, what, what should I do with my my time here that I have remaining after I have more of a life that's not ruled by a sport, and so that's when we got to know each other more, started spending more time together and when I kind of realized, oh, I might have more more actual.

Speaker 2:

You know romantic feelings for this person and I think, um, actual, you know romantic feelings for this person and I think, um, when it comes to you asked, also asked areas that kind of like attracted to me. You know, in terms of that, I think for me, I just I always felt like I could be myself around Ariel, and I think that for me that is something that could be challenging, and I think that her presence and just the ability to talk to someone and feel like I was being more of myself rather than being like, oh, I'm trying to put on a mask and try to be something different, and I think that that only felt like it became more so over time.

Speaker 3:

So oh love you, I love you. Well, you pretty much covered it. Um, I will add in some of the Enneagram pieces into that. Um, are you okay if I speak to some of the nine as well as?

Speaker 2:

two.

Speaker 3:

Okay, um. So yeah, we met um freshman year. We kind of have different stories of how we met, which is kind of funny, like we remember differently how we met one another. I thought it was at a concert and do you want to?

Speaker 2:

I thought we met at the local restaurant Ivanhoe's, and it's a small school so it's not that hard to bump into each other.

Speaker 3:

But you remembered it because we had an impactful conversation. I think is kind of what you said which feels cool for me, because I didn't even remember that conversation and you were like this was. So this was really helpful for me in thinking through what I want to do in life and in college. But yeah, I remember more of the concert. But regardless, it was kind of fun to just have those different connections with each other and we had shared friend groups too, which I think is just really helpful because we got to know each other through the lens of being friends and stuff other, through the lens of being friends and stuff.

Speaker 3:

Being in the feelings triad, I definitely was more aware of having feelings for Timmy, probably sooner than he was aware of them for me.

Speaker 3:

So I kind of had to play this waiting game, which I can definitely be impatient, but it kind of also didn't really matter all at the same time, because something that attracted me to Timmy was just feeling safe with him, and so it was kind of this dynamic of when we were together it didn't really feel like it mattered what was or what wasn't, but when we were away from each other I would start thinking about my feelings.

Speaker 3:

They were mostly just my feelings. I was thinking about like, oh, maybe I kind of have a crush on him, or yeah, I don't know, I just feel like we get along together really well or you know, sort of things like that. He's silly, very silly, but maybe not always in larger groups and because we would study together, sometimes I felt like I got to see the side of him which now I'm hearing is you felt like you could be more of yourself with me. So that was probably what was happening there, but yeah, so that felt really cool. And then as time went on, we got to be closer friends and stuff and beginning dating, um, yeah, it just it felt cool to feel like we had that baseline already.

Speaker 2:

Um, and the Enneagram was a tool where you know, we started dating really at the end of college and then we jumped into this long distance thing thing and soon after that I learned about the Enneagram and I feel like that was a helpful tool.

Speaker 2:

It's like a nice piece of armor to have as we went through the long distance journey which, as anyone who's done it will tell you, not for the faint of heart and not very easy, and we were about ready to be done with it, I think. I think we did it for about a almost a year or even longer.

Speaker 3:

Like a year and a half yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then I moved up to the area um, the Chicago area, where I was doing graduate school and we were able to resume the in-person relationship and that felt really healthy and needed as we continue to grow together, really healthy and needed as we continue to grow together.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I definitely do think was kind of what we've touched on with conflict being hard for us. That was super hard through long distance and dating and I think we did not know how to navigate it. But I think, through learning about the Enneagram and then you know learning about the Enneagram and then you know stopping with long distance and being closer, it was kind of the perfect time for us to start to learn how to engage in dealing with conflict more effectively through the language of the Enneagram.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, what a good love story. I love a good love story. Thanks, what a good love story. I love a good love story. Okay, I have in front of me a glow guide. So one of my Enneagram mentors her name is Krista Harden she runs Enneagram and Marriage. That's her business, so she has a really awesome podcast. If you like listening to interviews with couples, go to the Enneagram and Marriage podcast. That's a really great resource.

Speaker 1:

I took Krista's course to get certified in Enneagram and Marriage coaching, and one cool resource that she has is she put together what she calls glow guides and it's essentially every single combination between the nine types. So there's 45 combos, all the different types paired with each other, and she gives them all a name to describe that pairing and then she writes a couple paragraphs. So I'm going to read from her 2-9 glow guide. And these guys these are actually available on her website to purchase. So if you want to learn more about your partner and your pairing, you could go to Krista's website and find her glow guides. The 2-9 pairing is called lovely hospitality and the cover art has these two little mugs with warm coffee coming out of it and they've got little heart tags and that is like so cute because I feel like every time I hang out with you guys there's like a warm beverage involved and it's just so cozy.

Speaker 2:

I just saw there's little heart signs. Mine's the blue mug with the nine and yours is the two. I love that.

Speaker 3:

Pretty accurate, so cute.

Speaker 1:

So lovely. Hospitality is your nickname, and here is what Krista writes about the two nine glow. The two nine pairing is one that is not only enviable but also endearing, with both partners being truly considerate of giving to the other in both seen and subtle ways. The nine, who was a bit more withdrawn but still caring, helps the two to exercise some boundaries in the areas of rest and spending. The two's thoughtful inclusion allows the nine to show up bigger and be seen and heralded as special among friends and loved ones.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I mean straight away. You said it was hospitality. What was the name of the?

Speaker 1:

relationship, lovely hospitality.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I think that's cool because we love hosting people like that is something that Probably our biggest value, yeah, we've talked about as an enormous value in our relationship and marriage and that we've we love hosting people in our space and the different places that we've lived and I just that's that's very cool, that that's the name of our relationship in terms of Enneagram world. You know, I I see wisdom in both those descriptions. When it comes to nines, helping twos and exercising, yeah, boundaries, rest, spending, I guess you can maybe speak more to that one and I can talk to twos. Thoughtful inclusion allows the nine to show up bigger.

Speaker 2:

I think that, kind of going back to what attracted me to Ariel, I think that she was always able to I think promote is the wrong word but just there's areas about myself that I would not really bring to the table. I think it was really dependent upon who I was with, the kind of groups, and there was parts of myself that I was like this doesn't feel like it fits with this person or this group or this context. And Ariel, I think for the last several years you know our whole relationship has been able to bring that to the table, both one on one, but then in groups. She encourages me and will sometimes out me in terms of this is something that I do, or she can hype me up in ways that I would never be able to do.

Speaker 1:

Did you know Timmy plays the guitar.

Speaker 3:

Yes, did you know that Timmy has his master's in organizational leadership? Super proud of you, by the way, for saying that on the podcast earlier.

Speaker 2:

I'm not and I don't know if this is a nine thing, Elise but I'm not a good self promoter and I would imagine that it might be hard to find a fantastic nine self promoter. That might be something that they tend to struggle with, and so Ariel does that, I think, great. In her relationships, she really can see the value of a person in terms of like what they bring to the table, and then she's able to draw that out in natural but really cool ways. So that's what comes to my mind in terms of reading. Reading the description.

Speaker 3:

Thank you, I love to do it. Did you know Timmy writes poetry? Timmy has many talents. Um, yeah, I just I like to cheerlead, I think that's maybe kind of what you're saying. Um, yeah, so I think a part of um, something I've been processing, um, I think this started in grad school and then the Enneagram helped Um, but just having a really hard time, um, identifying my own needs, taking care of them, yeah, that's really hard for me and I just think kind of the comment about nines helping twos to exercise boundaries in areas of rest and spending of rest and spending Spending is kind of a funny word, but I'm going to take the spin on that and just kind of talk about just chronic health pain that I've been having in my life lately and it's really hard for me, number one, to admit that's going on and that.

Speaker 3:

Number two, it's pretty much a daily part of life at this point for me, but Timmy is always kind of walking alongside me, championing me kind of towards just ways to take care of myself. You know he's never once made me feel bad or guilty about needing to take care, take rest, or you know this has caused me to have to cancel work, which is really hard for me to do because I feel like I'm disappointing others, and others is kind of the way that I process the world, and so I'm tending to lean toward more thinking about others, that I might be, be the sort of carer or helper that I want to be to those people, if I'm not taking care of myself and even just kind of with, yeah, the rest and with the spending, like even you know, encouraging me to go seek help for those things, which feels hard for me to do, um, I don't know if it's a pride thing or what, but, um, you kind of are just, you know, constantly saying, you know, hey, we let's, let's get this taken care of, and I'm, I feel like I'm pretty resistant to you. I'm like, no, it's a lot of money, no, it's, um, it's stressful, um, and you say, yeah, but it's worth it. And I'm like, no, it's a lot of money, no, it's stressful, and you say, yeah, but it's worth it.

Speaker 3:

And I think what I hear is, no, but you're worth it. And I think that's sometimes hard for me to sit with. I'm seeing that in you, like poetry and guitar and your master's, and it's harder for me to kind of sit in that within myself, which I think is kind of that larger journey. Like I said, that started in grad school and then the language of the Enneagram really helped me with and but yeah, it's really hard, it doesn't come naturally, and so I think you really kind of yeah, you helped me lean into that, and I think permission is the word that's coming to mind. You're just constantly giving permission to just rest or set boundaries or, yeah, things that feel hard for me to do, and I really appreciate that and yeah, I just feel like you and who you are, like the best person to do that for me, and so I just feel really grateful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think. One more thought would be that the Enneagram when it comes to relationships, it's very interesting to look back, Like I. Sometimes I think about what if we had never heard of the Enneagram, and what would have that changed and would we have the language or words to be able to look back and understand some of our growth journeys and what we've kind of gone through? And I I don't know. I know that we would have grown in ways, but I don't know if we would have been able to have the same kind of growth journeys and have the language to kind of describe them. And I think the Enneagram is just such a fantastic tool to be able to do that, both individually but also as a couple yeah, it's really.

Speaker 1:

It's functioning in some ways like a shortcut, not in a shortcut where we're skipping doing all the work, but a shortcut of like let's let's um, illuminate the real pain points and let's figure out, like let's kind of let's bring clarity to our differences and let's figure out, like let's kind of let's bring clarity to our differences and let's bring clarity to what's going on inside ourselves so that we can start putting in appropriate work to grow and appropriate work to know each other better. And I just love how you guys have used the Enneagram as a tool and it's like this is such an awesome example of how the Enneagram can be used for good and how it can be used alongside all the other tools that you're using to grow and be a better human and love each other better. I did want to comment on some things that you guys have just been sharing, actually something that can look pretty similar between two and nine, but it's a bit different. So, ariel, you were talking about how it's hard for you to prioritize your needs and, yeah, for Enneagram twos, they tend to repress their own needs. They want to kind of ignore and stuff their own needs and focus on the needs of other people around them. It's not that twos are averse to need in the world, it's just they'd rather focus on others' needs and not their own.

Speaker 1:

And then what's happening with Enneagram nines and Timmy?

Speaker 1:

You were speaking about the reluctance to self-promote, and one of the core messages that the Enneagram nine interprets when they're growing up is your presence doesn't matter, your presence doesn't matter.

Speaker 1:

And so for an Enneagram nine, if they come to the world with this belief that my presence doesn't really matter that much, then of course, what is the what, what, what? What motivation do I have to self-promote or to try to, you know, build build up my own gifts? And I just like really love hearing about how you guys are kind of covering up that weakness and other person's journey. That's not really a good way to put it, but you guys are coming and kind of filling that gap right when, to me, you're like no, ariel, your needs are important too, and I'm going to help you understand your own needs. And, ariel, you're saying to Timmy your presence does matter and it matters so much to me, and I'm going to show you that your presence actually matters to other people too, not even just me. So really, really beautiful way that you guys are using this tool to help each other.

Speaker 2:

I also think that I know as a therapist Ariel, you probably see this where couples get stuck in patterns and the same thing happens and the type of argument or thing that's happening might look different, but it really comes back to the maybe the same core issue that's going on and I think the Enneagram can be like a great revealer to be like oh, this is what's going on, oh, this is what's going on and it doesn't maybe necessarily fix it, but then you're able to understand it and hopefully then work on it and begin to grow in that as well.

Speaker 2:

So as you were talking to Lisa. I thought of that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think truly what it is is it's not just couples, it's every individual gets stuck in their own pattern and when they find themselves in a relationship, that pattern is playing out, but with someone else who has their own.

Speaker 3:

And I just think that you know we found ourselves in a relationship having patterns and I think the Enneagram you know, when you came to me with it you said this changed is my story, this is part of my pattern and that really, I think the way that you talked about it, kind of inadvertently, essentially my relationships, which is probably what made it so hard for me to even determine my number to start, but then kind of taking that step back and going no way.

Speaker 3:

I need to know myself first in order to kind of engage with that, which is kind of that whole journey that I just kind of referenced. And I think gaining that self-knowledge first, learning our own patterns first, then allowed us to recognize how our own patterns were playing into our couple pattern in ways in which to kind of break up that cycle a bit Like, truly just I think, the idea of language, just giving new language to it. We could have told you there was a pattern and we could have explained what we both each did, but I think more of what those inner workings were individually. The Enneagram gave us language for which felt really powerful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's great, just bringing a lot of clarity to what's going on. Yeah, that's great, just bringing a lot of clarity to what's going on. Okay, so let's wrap up with this.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to put you on the spot a bit, but if, ariel, if you could think of a piece of relationship advice to give to the twos listening, and Timmy, if think the image of awake versus sleep has been one of the most helpful things for me. I think that my default is to want to feel at ease and to want to feel a sort of just not being disrupted, and I can view conflict or I can view different stressors as disruptions, and I oftentimes notice my day is my energy is spent up on avoiding those disruptors and there's like that feels nice to me and, and you know, in my work life or personal life, sometimes that avoidance I can put so much energy into, that avoidance of like it's like, oh, I'm actually not doing what I need to be doing, and so I think that's been helpful for me. Just to be like what? What is the thing that I need to be focusing on that I'm not focusing on, because usually there is something.

Speaker 2:

Maybe it's that elusive to-do, you know, number one on my to-do list that I've been avoiding. Maybe it's a conversation that I need to be having with Ariel. Maybe it's like a health thing, you know, or something that I. Maybe it's a desire or a want that I've been putting off, but I think asking that of just like, hey, I need to disrupt myself, or maybe I need to ask someone to disrupt me because my tendency is to want to be comfortable and asleep to those maybe desires or that most important thing, so just the need to wake up and knowing that that's not going to be my default. My default might be to be in a sleepy or slothy state, as the Enneagram enthusiasts sometimes like to call it, and that one took me a bit to understand too, because I was like slothy, like what does that mean?

Speaker 2:

And that's just been helpful for me to be like oh, I'll be up, I'm avoiding, and I don't even know I'm avoiding what. What is the thing? And usually I know the thing, but sometimes the avoidance can be so great that I fooled myself into being like I'm not avoiding. Nope, I'm not doing it. And I am doing it, and then very good at that. Yes, I can fool myself as well as others, and so I think the parting advice to nines would be what are you not paying attention to Once?

Speaker 1:

you identify the thing, then what are you going to do about it? Yeah, so that's great, timmy, and you, being a body type right, you're sitting right in between the eight and the one, and if someone is an eight or a one, they are most likely almost all the time full bodied, awake to the world all the time with all their senses, just like viscerally engaging. And, as you say, for you, it takes the work to engage and it takes a lot of intentionality, and it's amazing when a nine can can kind of find that route for them to wake up and to understand what they need to disrupt themselves not that you have to be disrupting yourself all the time, because there's such value in in the peace and the ease that you're able to achieve, but that's really helpful to to find that as your growth path.

Speaker 2:

And one more add on before Ariel shares her advice to twos. I think that that is an everyday process, unfortunately, and it's not like the work that you do every day is wasted. But I've oftentimes find that like it's an everyday process, unfortunately, like you start from zero and you got to wake up every day and be like, oh, what am I not paying attention to. Wake up the next day, what am I not paying attention to? And then over time, I think that gradual process makes it a bit easier. Um, you know, it's never going to feel easy, but a bit easier and more natural. You starts to develop as just like part of part of the routine.

Speaker 3:

I think what you were sharing was kind of making me think a little bit about Sleeping At Last the singer, songwriter and his Enneagram songs, which highly recommend if you haven't heard, but kind of what you're talking about. In his Enneagram nine song he says I've been sleepwalking for more than half my life and kind of what you're talking about. I feel like kind of references to that and I thought, wow, we're so linked right now, because what I was going to share was in reference to the Enneagram song too, and just my advice for fellow twos and I think, something that felt really, really hard for me in my journey it still is, but I think, yeah, just kind of what I've been touching on of honoring that my needs are just as important as yours, elise's, or yours, timmy, or you know anyone else that I love, for that matter, um, sometimes even people that I don't know, um, but I just really um. In each of his songs he um shares a podcast where he kind of details his inspiration behind his words, and each song is kind of meant to serve as a redemption story. So he kind of what he shares is that, you know, each number has their own thing. That is this really big struggle, but also these really beautiful things that they bring to the table. And so in the Enneagram 2 song it's kind of detailing that, that you're caring for someone else, you're taking care of them.

Speaker 3:

One of the lyrics says tell me if something's wrong. If something's wrong, you can count on me. And by the end of the song he kind of states um, yes, all these things are true for for twos and what they give to others and what they care about. But really this, this message, is for the two to themselves. Um, which just kind of totally overtook me, just kind of totally overtook me, and I think that what advice I would give is it's so easy to kind of repress what I feel that I'm needing or try to set it aside, for example, but if I kind of choose to lean into what those things are for me, telling myself, like, is something wrong right now? Um, okay, I, I can, I count on you know me to to take care of me so that I can do all these other areas, um, where I want to care for other people better.

Speaker 3:

Um, I think I've been forced kind of what I talked about earlier with this chronic pain. I was forced into the season. I resisted that for so long and I was forced into the season where I had to do those things and it taught me my stubborn self. It taught me that there is value in doing that and that I can come back from that care, being the version of myself that I always view myself to be, but sometimes is lacking if I don't care for myself well. So, yeah, I think my encouragement would just be to kind of almost be taking a pulse, or sometimes with clients I say, taking an inventory, just taking an inventory of what's going on for me, and Elise has been really great in teaching spiritual practices for numbers. Highly recommend her content on that. Oh no, there I am.

Speaker 1:

There you are promoting me.

Speaker 3:

Type person. There I am, there, you are promoting me, yeah, Um, but it it felt so validating, um, to know what she was talking about, too is and just saying you know, take time in the morning to to just journal or think, think about what you're feeling or what's going on. And I was just thinking about these last couple of years and how I have taken on the practice of journaling and having this morning routine where I check in with myself and I notice now if I don't do it. And it felt really validating to kind of take you know, hearing you kind of talk about that and then take that and going oh, this is something that is work. It felt like it was working for me, but I think I I never connected it with being a two or that, something really that I needed.

Speaker 3:

But I think, um, yeah, I think Suzanne Stabile, in that podcast I referenced, said if I wake up and start going, I don't stop, and I never think, I never take the time to take assessment for myself or how I'm doing or what I'm feeling.

Speaker 3:

And I just kind of took those three different things and compiled them together and go oh my gosh, that feels so true for me and if I miss that, I don't take the time for inventory, and then sometimes my body starts telling me you need to do this, and so luckily I've been able to be more aware of that now and be able to tap into that. But I think it's it's uncomfortable, but it's been probably one of the most valuable tools and it also helps me in our relationship to to be able to come to Timmy and say, hey, I'm really struggling here, I'm having this need or you know, rather than being maybe that being unconscious, and then it kind of coming out conflictually or something, and then he's confused and that's not helpful, you know. I just think being able to take that inventory and knowing and being able to share that then with a safe person and practice that it's really helpful.

Speaker 3:

So yeah, I think that's my advice yeah, that's.

Speaker 1:

that's a great word for the twos out there too. You know you, you see, you see yourself in terms of your relationships, but what does that look like to also start to have a bit of an internal focus and see yourself in terms of you and who you actually are and what you want and need? Well, that is going to wrap up our conversation. I love talking to you guys. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing. If you guys liked hearing from Timmy and Ariel, let us know. My email address is Elise at Towards Eden Enneagramcom. I'm going to put it in the show notes. Obviously, after hearing this conversation, you can tell that Ariel and Timmy are experts on being a two and being a nine. So if you want to know anything else about twos and nines, maybe we can get them to come back and do another episode on something specific, because you guys are awesome, awesome, loved everything you had to share. Um, do you have any parting thoughts?

Speaker 2:

no, thank you so much for having us. This was podcasting debut for each of us and we were so blessed to be on your show and it's so much fun, yeah so cool.

Speaker 1:

All right, talk to you guys soon bye.

Speaker 1:

Thank you guys for listening to this conversation with my friends Ariel and Timmy. As you can hear, they know so much about the Enneagram. They've done so much really good work around their types and there was a lot of resources mentioned during this episode, so I'll make a list in the show notes. You can go and reference that if you're interested in any of these podcasts or books that Timmy and Ariel mentioned. If you like this episode, send it to a friend, even send me an email, and let me know. I'm really happy that you're here listening and we'll see you next time. This episode was recorded using equipment provided to the public by the LaPorte County Public Library System. If you liked this episode, let me know. I'd love to hear from you, tell me what other topics you'd love to hear covered on this podcast and, as always, you can find more content on my Instagram at Towards Eden Enneagram, as well as on Facebook Towards Eden Enneagram and my website, towardsedenenneagramcom.