Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
The Enneagram is an amazing tool to help us have way better relationships - and grow emotionally + spiritually.
On this podcast you'll hear stories of people using the Enneagram personality tool
to understand themselves and the people in their worlds.
& I (Elyse) will teach you how to use the Enneagram system so that you feel empowered to use this tool in your own life.
Let's get curious about each others' stories and grow together 🌿
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#9 - Enneagram Instincts and Subtypes with Wendy Busby (4)
This is a 300-level episode all about Instincts and Subtypes. If you’ve already been studying the Enneagram for awhile, this is a great next step for your learning.
I am joined by Wendy Busby, Certified Enneagram Coach and Enneagram Type 4.
Wendy explains how the three instincts of Self-preservation, Social, and Sexual play out in our lives and affect our dominant Enneagram types.
Wendy, with her extensive knowledge, guides us through the intricacies of self-preservation, social, and sexual instincts, sharing how these unconscious survival strategies shape behaviors and perceptions.
Wendy has a podcast series that goes into depth about the subtypes of each number! Listen to her podcast here.
About Wendy:
I'm a certified Enneagram Life and Relationship Coach based in Yuma, AZ, offering sessions both in-person and via Zoom. I earned my Professional Enneagram Certification from CP Enneagram Academy and hold a Master Certified Life Coach certification from the Certified Life Coach Institute. Since my journey with the Enneagram began as a student in 2018 and transitioned into coaching in 2023, I have focused on nurturing relationships. My core passion is assisting individuals and couples in cultivating fulfilling relationships with themselves and their loved ones.
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Wendy's Podcast
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For resource recommendations, click here.
The Road Back to You by Ian Cron- start here to find your type
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Email me 📩
elyse@towardsedenenneagram.com
Get my FREE Guide to the 9 Enneagram Types 🌱
This guide is a great quick-reference to help you remember the types.
You are listening to Towards Eden, an Enneagram podcast. The Enneagram is a tool that helps us tell our stories. I'm Elise and I'm here to teach you all about the Enneagram so that you can understand your own story better and have way better relationships. I am here with my friend, wendy, today. Wendy is an Enneagram type four and we met in an Enneagram coaches training. So we're both in Krista Harden's program for training Enneagram and marriage certified coaches. In that program, we learn a ton about helping couples use their Enneagram types, but also a lot of other tools to communicate better and have a better marriage. So, wendy, thank you for being here and I'll let you introduce yourself.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me, elise. It's been a real pleasure meeting you and getting to know you through that coaching group that we're within. So, yeah, it's just been a pleasure. But yeah, I'm Wendy Busby. I'm a life and relationship coach and I work with individuals, couples, and I work with groups. I live in sunny Yuma, arizona, where we just yesterday had our first day that was not over 100 degrees in 112 days.
Speaker 2:We had 112 days straight of triple digit. It was the hottest summer we've had here in a really long time, and so I'm really thankful for some cooler days around here. I've been married for 23 years. My husband is Josh. We have four adult children, one grandchild and we have two more grandkids on the way twins, super excited and we have two mini schnauzers, oliver and Daisy, and so they're kind of our, you know, at home kids now, because we're officially empty nesters as of this summer. So that's been kind of fun to explore. That's a big change. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:That's going to be my parents. Literally this month, my sister's getting married and she'll be the last one to move out.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, that's exciting. Yeah, it's a little, it's a, it's not a little transition, it's a big transition.
Speaker 1:All right, wendy, tell me about your Enneagram journey, and I especially love hearing how did you first hear about it and how'd you first find your type?
Speaker 2:I love that question and, um, I start with that question all the time when I'm talking.
Speaker 1:It's so fun to hear everybody's stories it really is.
Speaker 2:Um, I first encountered the Enneagram um, it was about six years ago while I was listening to the Typology podcast, you know, ian Cron, and he was interviewing Dr Kurt Thompson, the one that was titled the Enneagram and Shame, and I was so intrigued Like I was immediately just intrigued by what they were talking about. I had never even heard the word Enneagram before, so I had to Google it. I was like, what are they talking about? And so I wanted to just figure out my type as quickly as I could. So I ordered a copy of his book, the Road Back to you, and I would read a chapter in the book and then I would listen to one of the podcasts where he was interviewing someone of that type. And when I read the chapter on four and I listened to the interview, I was just like floored at how seen I felt, how understood I felt. Hello, type four, wanting to feel understood.
Speaker 2:And what I found that was so interesting about that initial podcast, that interesting about that initial podcast that I encountered, is that Ian Cron and Dr Kurt Thompson are both fours, and so I think what I was picking up on was just that kind of special ways that fours talk about their life experience and I felt connected and so I just had to totally dig in. I wanted to learn as much as I could about the Enneagram, so I did, and that eventually led me to the CP Enneagram Academy and I decided to sign up for their professional certification program, probably where my true Enneagram work really started, because they link you up with a mentor coach and part of their requirement is that you are doing your inner work. They do retreats, in-person retreats, and it has just been, for me personally, a fantastic experience. It took me about two years to get through their program. It's pretty intense, but I have always just been so grateful for how thoroughly they teach about the Enneagram as a system and a model and how to use it in self-understanding and personal transformation.
Speaker 1:What is one thing that you can remember about the four that you heard early on, that connected you to four, that made you say, okay, this might be my number.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was mostly the emotions.
Speaker 2:So I'm a self-preservation four and we'll talk more about what that might mean a little later in our conversation here, just based on what you and I have already talked about.
Speaker 2:But when I I know that I'm emotional, but I don't, I'm not forward with my emotions, I keep them more hidden and private. And so that self-preservation four is kind of the happy on the on the outside for um, because I don't want to burden people, I don't want to overwhelm people, but I'm like super aware of how intense I feel emotions and and so that was one thing. And then the other thing was just, you know, that kind of lean towards sadness and melancholy and and comparing. So like I'm, I am really aware of how I compare myself to other people and I've always been aware of that. But I I thought that there was always something wrong with me, like there's something wrong with me, I don't fit in, I'm broken, like that irredeemable part that fours experience, I would say, a collection of kind of those things. That was like, oh okay, yep, that makes sense so that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:I want to ask a question about one thing you said. So I'm an Enneagram type one. I deal with with this comparison a lot, but it's like comparison in a sense of am I good enough, am I as good as that person over there, or am I like meeting a certain standard? Could you talk a little bit about what the difference is for an Enneagram four to deal with that comparison?
Speaker 2:Sure, the way I like to describe that, because you brought up that you're type one, and type one and type four share an arrow right and I like to call them access lines, and so we have there's a lot in common in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:For the four, that inner voice kind of sounds more like an inner condemner and from what I understand with the one, it truly is more an inner critic. It's like I'm not good enough and there's nothing I can do to make it better, like that person over there. For the four, that person over there is successful because they have something I don't have and I can't ever have it because I'm just broken, right. So it's that condemning kind of that condemning voice that says, like you're just nothing. So the shame, right, the shame is a big emotional experience for all heart types. Um, and fours aren are a part of the heart triad right, so the heart center and from what I understand with ones and you can give your insight into this is that that inner voice is more critical, like you didn't do that right and you did this wrong or whatever. Am I right on that Elise?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and I heard you say that for fours it's more about. I heard you say you're not as good as that person and you never will be. That's just who you are. And the difference for me as a one is this inner critic in my head. It's spurring me on to constant, nonstop action to make me think I can get there, because I feel like, oh, I'm not good enough, but I can get there and I should try harder and work harder. Have you tried trying harder? And so that voice is like kind of like bossing me around to keep trying to get to the standard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And the self-preservation four definitely it works really hard, but it's more about like, proving worth and value. It's not necessarily trying to like get the thing that the other person has in the same way that they have it. It's more like if I had it then I could also be successful, but nothing I can do is going to get me there. So it's that like I'm going to work really hard, but fours are very good at raising their own standard. Like I might be reaching my own standard and oh, let me raise the standard so that I can prove to myself that I actually can't do it. It's kind of yucky when you say it like that.
Speaker 1:So the word for fours is to name what is good about them to name, identify their good qualities, name them, own them and really come into all the good things that exist about them, because they are there, beautiful. That's an amazing action step, yeah, um. So for those of you who are like self-preservation wait, what does it mean? Tell me about it. Now we are going to reveal what this word self-preservation means. And you guys heard wendy say that she studied with cp, enneagram and um. Their training program focused a lot on teaching about instincts and subtypes, and so since Wendy has had a lot of training with these, I wanted to bring her on, because I have not really talked about subtypes on this podcast yet. So I'm really excited to have Wendy here to teach us about this topic, which is very fun, can be very complex, but for some people it's like an extra key to really help them understand their type. But for today, we're just going to kind of start at the basics, so take it away, wendy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely For sure, and it is something that is really interesting to learn about. It can help you understand yourself, even on a deeper level. But it is complex. So be patient with yourself as you're, if you're just hearing about this and kind of just learning, be patient, right. Give yourself a whole lot of compassion and grace in your inner work experience, always.
Speaker 2:So we're going to start with the instincts, which are a part of our human experience. You can kind of think of them like forces that are at work but that are separate from what we know as personality. So they're that like we're born with them, before personality even is established, and they operate kind of like as our unconscious survival strategies. And we have three of them. It's self-preservation, social and sexual, and you'll often hear that one referred to as one-to-one. The sexual and one-to-one are interchangeable. When you might be hearing different teachers talk about it, I just go with sexual, because that's the actual name of the instinct itself and I understand that some people can be uncomfortable with that word, and so using one-to-one is absolutely okay, whatever makes you feel comfortable when you're talking about the instincts. So, like I said, the instincts they operate at a really very unconscious level and they're activated before cognition and before emotions. So learning about them can really help you get a deeper understanding of the Enneagram as a whole, but a deeper understanding for your own personal growth. And how you do that. You're like, okay, well then, okay, that sounds good. But how right? Most people are like, how, what do I do with this? And so figuring out which instinct is the most active for you is helpful.
Speaker 2:And what's even more helpful is identifying your instinctual sequence. And you're like okay, another big word. What do you mean by instinctual sequence? I mean that one instinct is dominant or overused and it kind of acts a little bit like a wild animal. The middle instinct operates kind of more at a normal level. It's not overused, it's not underused, it kind of shows up when it's needed. And the repressed or the blind instinct, it's kind of like a wounded animal and it's underused. For example, I'm self-preservation dominant, which means for me that instinct gets overused. Sexual is my middle instinct and it gets used when it's needed. It's not too much, it's not too little. And the social instinct instinct for me is repressed and that means that it gets underused. So that's my instinctual sequence.
Speaker 2:And the instinctual sequence really does put even just another shade of color to how type gets expressed. When people ask me like well, there can't be just like nine types of people in the world, like that doesn't really make sense to me. The way I like to describe that is imagine you're standing in Home Depot or Lowe's or a paint store and they have that wall with all the little cards on it with all the colors, and imagine it separated into nine primary colors and under that all the shades that are kind of in those colors exist. And that's how we are as human beings. We're unique in our own way. We have nine basic ways of approaching the world and processing the world and the instincts help us understand further how we understand and see the world. And then understanding our instinctual sequence even makes it that much more granular, that much more perfect match with your own particular shade. So it's super cool to understand and to learn about.
Speaker 1:Okay, so tell us about the three instincts. What are they? What's the difference between self-pres, social and sexual?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. The self-preservation instinct is the key traits that are associated with that is security, well-being, safety. The instinct is responsible for keeping us alive self-preservation, preserving life and it's like unconscious energy pushed towards concerns like having enough resources, avoiding danger, maintaining a sense of structure in order to feel safe. People who are dominant in self-preservation, they're focused, can be more focused on self-care, like health, money, food, ahead of other things, and they're more prone to anticipating what they might need in the future. They have a natural tendency towards fear and anxiety. So it's not uncommon for a self-preservation dominant person to get mistyped as one of the head types that their core fear is is their core emotion is fear, and they have more anxiety, and so that's an important thing to look at.
Speaker 2:Like when I take any Enneagram online Enneagram test, I always test as self-preservation four, but my second is always self-preservation six, and I actually don't relate a lot to the self-preservation six, six and I actually don't relate a lot to the self-preservation six, but that's the way the you know test interprets my answers, because I tend towards more just kind of natural fear and anxiety, and I also like to talk about the instincts this way. So imagine that you're at a party and when the self-preservation dominant person comes into a party, like they're going to scope out where the food table is, they're going to want to know where the bathroom is, they're going to pay attention to whether they're too hot, too cold, and they might even wonder, like when can I go home? I just love that example because it helps us relate to it. It's like oh yeah, that's so true. Every social event I go to, where's the food? Am I cold or hot, and when do I get to go? How does that relate to you being self-preservation dominant?
Speaker 1:What I just described yeah, I think a lot of my background anxiety relates to those things like am I safe? Am I secure? Do I have enough? Um, I am the person at the party who will. When I'm done, I'm done like. I don't want to spend 25 minutes saying bye to everybody. I'm just gonna head out because, like what I, what my body needs right now and what would make me feel like I have, what I need is being out of here and being alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's kind of like a general sense of like what do I need? Like you know, even if you're not an inwardly focused person or type like, there's kind of still that sense of okay, like do I have what I need right now? But it's also interesting to understand, like, what the instinct looks like when it's repressed. So when self preservation is repressed, like those needs that I just described, some of them are just forgotten, like they may not remember to eat, or they may not think about saving money or going to the doctor. Okay, they may not be good at planning and they can sometimes put themselves in danger without knowing it because they're they're don't don't kind of have that spidey sense of like oh, what's going on around me, like the self-preservation dominant person generally has, like just kind of awareness of their, the environment generally has like just kind of awareness of their the environment.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. Yeah, could you? Could you give us the party analogy for all of the instincts and then go back around to explaining more in depth, because I think that party analogy is really helpful for, oh, yeah, sure sure.
Speaker 2:So, um, let me just re-say that self-preservation dominant person will look for the food, you know. They want to know where the bathroom is. They're going to pay attention to whether they're hot or cold and they might think about when they want to go home. The social dominant person, like they're going to walk in and they're going to like take in the vibe of the group, right, and they're going to. They're not going to want to leave until they've seen and talked to everyone there. So like they're the person that goes around the room and kind of talks to everybody and oh, who's? Who's talking to this person and who's talking to that person? Oh, these two people should meet.
Speaker 2:It's like they take in the vibe of the group and the sexual dominant person, they walk in and they look around at the group but they zero in on who they think the most interesting person is there and they want to just talk to that person. So it's like this kind of it's almost like an energy. It's like I've heard it described this way before. There was a gentleman who was sexually dominant and it was an exercise, right, and they asked him like okay, point out who in here is capturing your attention, like who's standing out to you and it was like a group of I don't know 30 people, right, so there's lots of people to choose from.
Speaker 2:But he immediately knew the one person he wanted to talk to and he described it in like I can't not go towards them. It's like this energetic sort of pulling, like craving that one-to-one connection. The one-to-one connection, yeah, so I'm glad you brought that up because that can help people like oh yeah, how do I interact? Or at a party, and of course you know, type influences the way our behaviors get expressed, right, but it's like this is the bottom line kind of foundation of instincts are like running the show, unconsciously yeah, and I'm I'm glad that you explained it two ways and how it shows up, if it's dominant, and how it shows up or like how it can affect you if it's repressed.
Speaker 2:So let's go to social next, um, and to do social more in depth sure, yeah, the key traits that are associated with the social instinct, um, our relationship to the group. There's kind of that herd mentality and like security in the collective. That um, this instinct um, is responsible for alerting you to like how you're positioned in relation to the group, like I described, like what's the inner dynamic of the group, and social dominant people just have a real keen sense of that give and take that exists in society and how that's linked to survival. It's like if we all help then we'll all survive. That's how. How social dominant people kind of lean into like that social collective group mentality.
Speaker 1:Does that so for a social instinct dominant person? Does that also mean, are they very like, very aware of the roles in the group and like the role they're playing?
Speaker 2:They are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they just kind of naturally are paying attention to, like, the inner dynamics of the group and they're concerned with their status or their standing within their group. They're concerned with their status or their standing within their group and so there's just an awareness there. Now some types right that are social, that are social dominant, don't necessarily feel comfortable in groups. They can be a little bit more on the external, sort of on the fringes of the group, but it doesn't mean that they're not social dominant. So that can be confusing for people. It's like, oh, I don't really like social events, so I must not be social dominant. It's not so simple like that. So, for instance, social ones, they can feel a little anxious in social environments and they kind of stay a little bit out on the edges. That's just one example that makes sense. That makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when the social instinct is repressed, there's just that lack of awareness of the dynamics of the group and they might be a little antisocial or, you know, kind of forget like the larger family or the community fabric. And so I can just give an example as a social, I am social repressed, right, and I totally relate to that. I can sometimes just forget that there's a larger group happening and not always aware of the dynamics in the group. It's been my inner work this entire year for 2024 has been working on my social repressed instinct, and it has been quite the journey so far. But I will tell you it's not easy work.
Speaker 2:But I was like, wow, I really I don't pay attention to that and I can come into groups for a little while and I can leave groups and when I'm gone I just don't really even think about it. Sure, but that doesn't mean that the group isn't thinking about it, right? So I tend towards thinking like I don't really contribute to the group and that's not true either. Like I contribute to groups. They need me, they need my voice there, but that's just not on the top of my mind ever. So it takes a lot of concentration and intentional awareness to pay attention to my own status or standing in a group and how I operate in a group, because I just don't think about it.
Speaker 1:Can you share one practical example of something you did this year to work on bringing that social instinct into balance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I joined a networking group a business networking group and it was so scary and it was so hard for me to do, but I made a very intentional decision to all right, I'm going to join this group of professionals and it's a weekly meeting and every week during the meeting you have to get up and you have to spend 45 seconds to a minute talking about yourself, your business and the service you provide.
Speaker 2:And within the group there's a leadership team right, and there's dynamics that are happening within the group, and so I've just leaned into trying to really be present with my body, present with my head, my heart and my gut, and using kind of those centering practices to be like every week when I go into this group I'm going to pay attention and it has been a wild ride. There are weeks where I'm just like I can't do this, I can't do this and I forced myself to go, and that is part of this instinct work. Like I said in the beginning, that dominant instinct is like a wild animal. It's really running the show. I would much rather just stay home and be by myself, with my comfort, my food, my air conditioned home, whatever it is Right, and so denying some of that is part of the work on the dominant instinct and then nurturing that repressed instinct like it's the wounded animal, like it needs care and concern and attention was okay.
Speaker 1:What was the harder part for you, for you about starting to do that? Like, was it the standing up and presenting yourself in front of people, or was it just the literally going in and being with this group for an hour? Like, what was the hard part for you?
Speaker 2:A little bit of both, but I would say for me it was more just the fact that I'm in the group, like that I have to go and I have to participate in the group. Okay, so you know, social events for me I can go and do them, I'm not afraid of social events, but I typically will latch to one person and remember that sexual is my second instinct, right? So I'll latch to one person that I feel safe with and I typically won't leave that spot, Like I plant myself in a spot, whether it's it is usually on the edges of the group, on the edges of the room, and I'll stay with one person and so I get. Another exercise that I did was when I'm finding myself in social situations more like party type scenarios, right? Not this group, where it's kind of organized, is like I'm going to challenge myself to talk to three people.
Speaker 2:Okay, and you know, sometimes I'm able to do it, Sometimes I'm not. But but that it's just being aware of like, oh, I wasn't, before I paid attention, I really wasn't aware of how much I like plant myself in one spot and talk to only one person and I'm like, oh, wow, I do that and that's being driven by my self-preservation dominant instinct. Who is like needs to feel comfortable and safe.
Speaker 1:Okay. So this, I really love this. You gave a practical example of how, if you're social repressed, how can you work on just like making that more healthy Before we move on to the sexual instinct? Can we hop backwards to the self-preservation instinct and can you give an example of somebody who knows their self-preservation repressed? What's a practical step they can take to work on making that part of themselves more healthy and balanced?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and that's a great question. So remember when we talked about the self-preservation instinct, it's that they kind of forget about taking care of themselves. So the self-preservation repressed person's work is around taking care of themselves. Maybe it's making a doctor's appointment, maybe it's creating a budget or reminding themselves when they're in public that they should pay attention to their surroundings. And, like one person I know who is self-preservation repressed well, that's the person I'm not thinking. My husband actually is self-preservation repressed. I'm not thinking about him. This other person One time they leave their phone everywhere. My husband loses his keys all the time. That's something that a self-preservation repressed person because they're not thinking about what they need it's not really forward like what they might need in the future. Like, oh, if I'm getting on this plane, I'm actually going to need to take my phone and my keys with me to my destination and just get on the plane and leave their phone at the airport. That actually happened.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Another example I have of a friend who is self-preservation repressed is that one of her kids needed her car and she needed to get somewhere and so she just kind of randomly chose this like ride share thing without really looking into it, and ended up like being in a dangerous situation because she was just like, oh, this person works, I mean it's just interesting, right like the way it gets acted out in our everyday life. And she was like I didn't even think about it, like I just thought, oh, okay, this works, you know yeah let's now talk about the sexual instinct as a whole.
Speaker 1:So all yeah, you could start wherever you want to start with. Okay Sounds good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the traits associated with the sexual instinct is, as you can maybe imagine, this focus on the intensity of experience and one-to-one relationships. That's where we get that one-to-one designation for them. There's a strong desire to nurture those intense bonds and that's to help ensure personal and familial survival. The sexual dominant person they have a desire to be attractive and powerful in relationships. They often have intense eye contact. They'll kind of lean in and come close to you. They might even reach out and touch your arm or your shoulder without thinking about it. They're just that kind of intense energy that's coming forward, wants to sort of wrap you up. They naturally tend to be more aggressive and competitive by nature. Again, they desire strong, energetic connections with others. Sometimes it can be interpreted as like the juice or the sizzle, right. They're just kind of juicy person and it's energetic.
Speaker 2:So it is important to understand that while it is called the sexual instinct, it's not solely about sex or about sexuality. It's about forming intense personal connections, intense personal bonds and to experiencing life with passion and depth and intensity. So it's not really about sex, although that is a part of it, right. So sexually dominant people can sometimes have an easier time with that aspect of life, just because they feel more comfortable in the instinct itself and that helps them lean into that more, whereas a person that is sexual repressed. They just kind of lack an energy towards like close bonds, they can lack energy towards sexual intimacy. They have lower energy towards competition or going after what they want. It's kind of like they're a little bit when the sexual instinct is repressed. They're a little bit slower in a way.
Speaker 1:Can you say more about the slower piece?
Speaker 2:Sure. So I have a friend who's a self-preservation nine. She's sexually repressed, and so of course you have the nine thing going on, right, and the self preservation nine who's more, who's the most concrete, and she just doesn't really pay attention and doesn't feel a need to kind of like um be expressive or doesn't and doesn't feel comfortable um putting herself out there in the way that, like a sexual dominant, even a sexual nine, like we say that they merge the most, but when they tap into that sexual instinct, like they can really get some things going for them. And, um, a self-preservation nine that has a sexual oppressed instinct, they just have a harder time with that. They even have a harder time getting themselves going, as all nines do, but they don't have that edge that the sexual instinct kind of gives. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's helpful. Okay, yeah, you're talking about that. You know, a little more juice, a little more sizzle.
Speaker 2:A little more juice, a little more sizzle, yep, exactly.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about, for the sexual repressed instinct, what's a practical step that somebody could take to practice working on that instinct.
Speaker 2:It's in kind of paying attention to take to practice, working on that instinct. It's in kind of paying attention to appearance, right, because we attract people by appearance and so putting a little bit more energy into, maybe, what you wear or thinking about how your hair is it's those simple things that draw people to you and create that kind of energy in like, oh, I'm going to stand up straighter, I'm going to lead with a little bit more of that juice and sizzle, right. Another good thing for sexual, repressed persons to lean into is, um, using, uh is leaning into competition. Like it will be really uncomfortable because it's like I'm not competitive but just try it. Like, okay, I'm going to play a game with my friends, like, and I'm going to actually really try and win you know that is.
Speaker 2:That is, um, activating some of that sexual instinct energy, Even looking at people in the eyes, Because sexual dominant people they have intense eye contact, and people who are sexually oppressed they sometimes have a difficult time maintaining eye contact, and so practicing that like that's a practical thing you can practice with almost anyone, and so practicing that like that's a practical thing you can practice with almost anyone is I'm going to like pay attention to. Am I coming forward with my eye contact? Am I leaning forward just a little bit in this conversation, as a sexual dominant person would do?
Speaker 1:I feel good about the summaries that we've done of the instincts, so now here's the next question.
Speaker 2:Wendy, why does this matter for our Enneagram types? That's a great question, elise, and hopefully everybody's like hanging on in the conversation. Like I said in the beginning, bear with us, just be patient.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a big topic, but once we get through this, it can matter a lot and it can be really fun to explore this more once we get through this, it can matter a lot and it can be really fun to explore this more.
Speaker 2:It really can, okay, so when we think about the Enneagram, right, we can think about it in terms of threes. There's three main energy centers the head, the heart and the body and these are often referred to as the centers of intelligence. I like to call them energy centers because that's where we get our energy from, primarily in our type. So we have three energy centers head, heart, body and these centers are what make up, like, our primary personality pattern, and this gives us the nine types. So three times three is nine. So there's three energy centers. There's three types within each energy center. Three times three equals nine. That gives us the nine types. When you break it down a little bit further, each of the nine types gets broken down into three, so each type has three unique ways that that type gets expressed and that gives us the 27 subtypes. So it's three times nine equals 27.
Speaker 2:And so you're like okay, I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, we're talking about subtypes, and you may or may not have heard people talk about subtypes, but when I say I'm a self-preservation four, I'm talking about my subtype. So my dominant instinct is self-preservation. My type is four, making me a self-preservation four. Like Elise, she's a type one. Her dominant instinct is self-preservation, making her self-preservation one. So when you identify what your dominant instinct is and you know what your dominant type is when you put those together, that's what makes the subtype. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:That's great, yeah, so, to be clear, when we talk about the first set of three, the three centers of intelligence or centers of energy, so you'll have 8, 9, 1 in the gut center, 2, 3, 4 in the heart center and five, six, seven in the head center. But then we'll take, for example, type five and there's a self-preservation five, a social five and a sexual five, and that's just three different expressions. So it's kind of a way for us to narrow down even further, kind of to further describe what's going on inside us, to further describe our experience, and also sometimes, for some people, this actually is the key to unlocking their type, because there's some differentiations with subtypes that will make you know. Okay, if you are on instagram, you probably know some stereotypes of numbers and, for example, if someone is just trying to type based on their stereotype, they might miss out because there's these some subtypes actually don't really fit into the stereotype.
Speaker 2:So yes, very, very, very well said, yeah. Understanding the subtypes gives you like a deeper, more nuanced view of the type itself and it helps explain, like why two people with the same Enneagram type might look really differently on the outside and because that subtype, the instinctual drive, the dominant one, is like pulling them in different directions, but the core type is the same. So mistypes when people are mistypes, it's usually because the instincts slash subtypes weren't considered in the typing process.
Speaker 1:Can you pick one of the types we haven't talked about a lot yet on this episode and maybe just give us a breakdown of how the three different instincts will look to make the subtypes?
Speaker 2:us a breakdown of how the three different instincts will look to make the subtypes. Yeah, so type six is one of the types where a lot of mistyping can happen, because the three types of six, they look really differently. So the self-preservation six is the most phobic. Six is the most phobic, meaning like they're actively fearful, they're insecure and they seek alliances to give them that sense of safety and security.
Speaker 2:The social six is kind of a blend of phobic and counterphobic, meaning fearful and not fearful, so making them less actively fearful. But they rely on more abstract reason and ideology for their sense of certainty. And that requires a little bit more questioning than just like I'm going to believe, right, just blindly trusting. Yes, and the sexual six is what's considered the counter type. And what I mean by counter type is that, like you just said, the fives, right, the fives, there's a self-preservation five, there's a social five and there's a sexual five and within that one of them is called the counter type.
Speaker 2:And so the sexual six is the counter type of the type six, meaning they don't really look like a six all the time. So they go against fear with strength and intimidation and they will say that they're not afraid. But what's happening is that their inner programming is designed to be like the best defense is an attack If I attack you, you won't attack me. So they often get mistyped as eights, right With that display of strength. But really, what's motivating that like? What's the internal motivation is fear.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's really good they're afraid, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the six is a great example of why understanding the instincts and understanding the subtypes is like, so transformative to the experience of Enneagram work. And we can also use this example of six to look at the instinctual sequence. So if someone is self-preservation dominant and they have sexual as second, they're going to be a little bit less totally fearful than someone who is self-preservation with social seconds, because they're getting that energy of the sexual instinct that gives them some juice to stand up for themselves per se. Right, I'm going to stand up with a little intimidation where, if we know something about the self-preservation six, they're warm and friendly and they don't want to upset anyone because if I upset you then you'll attack me and that makes me feel afraid. And so understanding the sequence is also really important to understanding your type and how that gets expressed in your life, understanding your type and how that gets expressed in your life.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you guys, if this is interesting to you, I do want to quick plug that on Wendy's podcast, she has a series that she just started where she's going through all of the numbers and talking about their different subtypes. So if you want more detail about your type specifically and how the subtypes look, we'll link Wendy's podcast because you can go so into depth with this.
Speaker 1:You can yeah, but I think the next question that I want to ask right now is so how would someone go about starting this journey to figuring out their subtype?
Speaker 2:Really it's just about taking time and observing. Like with all Enneagram work, it starts with paying attention, with observing your patterns and learning, like learning about what the instincts are and how they get expressed, and then watching and observing yourself and going, okay, okay, yeah, I can connect with that, or that doesn't really make sense to me. It was harder for me to identify my repressed instinct than my dominant instinct, but sometimes it's easier for people to identify their repressed instinct than their dominant one. So whatever way works for you, the point is just to lean into, lean into it, right. So I initially I thought that I was sexually repressed because of some childhood trauma that I had and not really feeling comfortable in my body.
Speaker 2:But Beatrice Chestnut, she has a book called the Complete Enneagram and it's definitely more academic. Like it's not the easiest read, so just know that. But as I started to read her book on the 27 subtypes and really digging in and because I took some of the classes through them, I was like, oh no, I'm definitely social repressed and so that kind of helped me figure out. That's what I would encourage people to do would be learning and observation. I think that there are some. Well, I know that there are some tests out there that you can take, but, like the typing tests that I use, it gives a suggestion to what the subtype might be Okay. So if someone's you know I don't want to do all that I want to at least like give me an idea. You know they can reach out to me and we can get them set up with that. But when we talk about, like, the goal of working with the instincts, yes, it's really about balancing, right, it's about balancing them. We can't do that until we know where they fit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, and balancing. I mean, there's work we can do with balancing in a lot of ways. With Enneagram, right, we can balance our heart with our head, with our body. We can balance our stance as far as do we move against people or towards people or away from people, and then with the subtypes, we can balance our instincts. And why does it matter? Why should people care about bringing themselves into balance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll give this little insight to you with the work that I've done specifically this year. Give this little insight to you with the work that I've done specifically this year. About two months ago, I was having a session with my Enneagram coach yes, I'm a coach, but I also have a coach because that's important and we were talking about this work that I'm doing and I said, hey, I'm starting to notice that when I activate my head center, when I'm really paying about balancing, one of the things I realized was that obviously my heart is the most active center, right, because I'm a heart type, being type four, but I'm also fairly connected with my body, just kind of naturally. But my head, my thinking center, was really not very active. I would say often like, oh, I'm overthinking this, I'm overthinking this, I can't move forward on this because I'm overthinking it. And what I realized was like I'm not thinking at all, I'm way overfeeling, I'm leading with my feelings, but I'm saying that I'm thinking about it. And so I challenged myself to quit saying that I'm overthinking and just be honest with myself and say, wendy, you're overfeeling right now because the head center's job is to give us information and to help us process information, and so when I'm taking in the information, I don't have to feel anything about process information. And so when we so when I'm taking in the information, I don't have to feel anything about that information. I can just use that information to help me make a strategic decision about my business.
Speaker 2:But I was having a hard time moving forward with some things because I was getting caught up in details which I thought were in my head but they were all wrapped up in overfeeling and not feeling like I had what it takes and all the envy and all the melancholy and all the stuff Right. So that was just something. An interesting insight that I'm still exploring is does balancing the centers of energy, the centers of intelligence, does activating the one that you use the least? Can that aid in helping someone activate their repressed instinct? So it's a little. You know experiment theory. I'm kind of exploring with some of my clients and with some of my Enneagram friends.
Speaker 1:That's really great. I think I know that some people who listen to this show, who have already done a lot of work with their main type, like this is an awesome thing to do next, like work on your instincts, your subtypes, work on-.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I mean, it's definitely not the first thing you lead with when you're doing Enneagram work, but it can be helpful to know it.
Speaker 1:All right, Wendy, I've got one last question for you today. As an Enneagram type four, how do you want your people to check in on you? How do you want them to care for you?
Speaker 2:I love that question. What I need is if people realize they haven't heard from me in a little while or they haven't seen me like I need someone to reach out and come find me, because I've withdrawn, I've isolated, because I'm overwhelmed with my emotions and I need someone to just talk it through with me, so as again to relate this to subtype as a self-preservation, for I keep everything inside. I'm not over, I don't overshare my emotions, and so sometimes I need someone to like come and find me and like ask me okay, let's really talk about how you're feeling right now and just get it all out. What are you afraid of? What are you sad about? What are you concerned about? Because I will isolate until I feel put together enough that I can come back out, and then I'm not burdening anybody, but I've dealt with my emotions enough that I can endure. But that's not really dealing with them, that's just putting a little Band-Aid on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for your Enneagram 4 friends, people listening Enneagram 4s really appreciate that when you give them the space to verbally process and you give them the space to say what they're thinking and feeling and just express it and get it out without trying to stuff them down or without trying to deny it or without telling them stop feeling it, stop being so sensitive, get over it.
Speaker 2:That is a really good way to just push them the floor away. That's the worst thing you can say. Yeah, the worst thing you can say is to like, oh, you shouldn't feel that way and I know that people say that because they're trying to help. Like, oh, you shouldn't feel that way. And it's like, don't say that. Like that totally invalidates what I'm actually feeling. Just say, oh, I'm sorry you're feeling that way. Yes, you know that must be really hard. Yes, it is hard, you know. Yeah, thank you for hearing me. Yeah, thank you for hearing me.
Speaker 1:Awesome, Wendy, thank you for being here. This is has been a very educational episode and also we got to hear a little more about type four. So is there anything else you want people to know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been a pleasure being on. Like if people are interested in my podcast, it's called your Enneagram Friend. It's on Apple and Spotify. I do post them on YouTube as well. My website is wendybusbecoachingcom. All the links to everything are there Instagram, your Enneagram friend. So, yeah, I'd love to opportunity to connect and answer any questions that people have and, um, I look forward to having you on my podcast soon, fun.
Speaker 1:So fun. We'll put all those links to your bio info in the show notes so people can go find more from your page and follow her on Instagram. Wendy posts a lot of good content on her Instagram.
Speaker 2:Thank you Appreciate that.
Speaker 1:All right, that is all for this episode. Talk to you guys soon.