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Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
The Enneagram is an amazing tool to help us have way better relationships - and grow emotionally + spiritually.
On this podcast you'll hear stories of people using the Enneagram personality tool
to understand themselves and the people in their worlds.
& I (Elyse) will teach you how to use the Enneagram system so that you feel empowered to use this tool in your own life.
Let's get curious about each others' stories and grow together 🌿
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#13 - The Assertive Stance with Amanda Nagy (3), Caleb Chao (7), and Kathleen Henderson (8)
Listen in on this fun, high-energy conversation about the Assertive Stance.
The Enneagram assertive stance (Types 3, 7, and 8) is characterized by a forward-moving, action-oriented approach to life, often focused on achieving goals, seeking excitement, or asserting control. These types tend to rely on their own energy and drive to shape their circumstances, sometimes overlooking emotional or relational nuances in the process.
Amanda (Type 3), Caleb (Type 7), and Kathleen (Type 8) share all about what it's like to be in the Assertive Stance.
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Amanda Nagy is a certified Enneagram coach, psychology instructor, and a health coach. She has 3 years of experience in coaching, 17 years of teaching high school and college students, and 13 years of school counseling. Amanda is a TX native but has lived in ID for the last 22 years with her husband of 14 years and their adopted dachshund/beagle mix. Find her on Instagram @nagyonfire.
Caleb Chao is the Senior Manager, Search Strategy at SportRx in San Diego, CA. He is a 15-year veteran of the internet marketing industry with agency, brand, and entrepreneurial expertise in PPC/SEM, SEO, content marketing, analytics, client management, conversion optimization, digital & business marketing, and sales/operations strategy. Caleb is passionate about the intersection of psychology, marketing, sales, behavior, technology and economics. Caleb recently celebrated his 16th wedding anniversary yesterday (10/8), and has two girls Ashlynn (8) and Paige (6). He absolutely adores being a girl dad. It's literally the best thing.
Kathleen is the oldest of 3 girls, was put in charge of her sisters throughout childhood and was told she needed to be a role model for her younger sisters. So she exceeded in school and college. She’s currently 67 years old and lives in Minnesota with her husband. Her three adult children live all over the world. Kathleen worked as an operating room RN - a job that required quick thinking, life or death decisions, and a strong personality to advocate for patients. Kathleen saved hundreds of lives throughout her career.
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For resource recommendations, click here.
The Road Back to You by Ian Cron- start here to find your type
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Welcome back to Towards Eden, an Enneagram podcast. This is the second episode in a series on the stances. The stances is one of my personal favorite parts of Enneagram. This concept has really helped me understand some of the ways that others are different from me. This episode is about the assertive stance, that's, types three, seven and eight. I am so glad that Amanda, caleb and Kathleen joined me for this episode. You guys, they had a lot to say. They had so much to say that we talked for over two and a half hours. I did cut a bit of that out, but I really kept the bulk of the conversation because they really had some awesome insights into the minds of 3s, 7s and eights. This was a really fun, really high energy conversation. I divided it into two episodes to make it a little more manageable. So here's the first episode with Amanda, caleb and Kathleen.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Towards Eden and Enneagram podcast. My name is Elise and I am here after 44 minutes of technical difficulties with Caleb, amanda and Kathleen, and we have really been bonding for these 44 minutes over trying to figure out our audio issues. I hope that you guys listening can hear what I'm saying. That's the most important thing right now, because I've spent about 22 of those minutes with nobody being able to hear me. So today we are talking about the assertive stance.
Speaker 1:We're in a series about stances, so we have types one, two and six in the dependent stance, types four, five and nine in the withdrawn stance and types three, seven and eight in the assertive stance. If you want to get more context on what the stances mean, go back and listen to my previous episode all about stances. I'm really excited to have three very awesome people with me a three, a seven and an eight and they are here to tell you guys all about what it's like to be in the assertive stance. So we're going to start with introductions. I'd love to hear from you guys who are you, where are you located and what do you do in life. And we'll start with Amanda, our Enneagram.
Speaker 2:Type three Hello, I am a teacher and counselor and coach and fashion stylist on the side and I'm currently in Idaho. And today is my 14th anniversary to my lovely husband and we have a fur baby Congratulations.
Speaker 1:Go ahead, Caleb.
Speaker 3:So I'm Caleb. I actually had my 16th anniversary yesterday, so I am married. I got two girls they're eight and five them being girl. That is awesome. I am in San Diego, california, where it's sunny and beautiful and just really nice right now. So come on down. What I do. I do digital marketing. I do paid search marketing, so that's kind of the day job. I also teach it at UC San Diego and, yeah, that's kind of the day job. I also teach it at UC San Diego and yeah, that's kind of what I do.
Speaker 1:Awesome, all right, your turn, kathleen.
Speaker 4:Kathleen, let's see being married 43 years in January. I have three adult children who live all over One lives in Dubai, one lives in Tulsa and my son lives in Minneapolis. I used to be an operating room nurse, done any kind of surgery, which is a very intense environment, and so now I'm retired I like to learn. I like to do yard work, go walking. I still love to learn, read, love the Enneagram, so I'm learning about that, and you know I like to keep busy.
Speaker 1:I've never been accused of sitting and doing nothing, so I'm still quite active well, just based on those introductions, I think you guys can already hear that everybody in the assertive stance seems to keep busy. You guys have, um, a lot of jobs and roles involved in your, in your bios, which I love to hear. You like to do a lot of different things, and I actually know Amanda, caleb and Kathleen all from Enneagram coaches groups. So they're all Enneagram coaches. They're all certified. I've been in training programs with them and I would just love to hear each of you talk about your Enneagram journey. How did you find your number? Um, if you have any mistypings, let's hear about that, uh, all the things. So, amanda, we're going to start with you again and I know you have a quite the little mistyping journey to tell us about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll try to be succinct about it. Um, when I first came across the Enneagram, I thought I was a four and it was just oh, take a test. Oh yeah, that sounds about right and just move on with my life. But it wasn't until I started getting into coaching and counseling that I wanted to use it as a tool for my students. And the more I grew and went through my own therapy you know healing process it just didn't sit right to me. A lot of my extroverted, intense energy was coming out a little more freely than it had been prior, and so I just you know that four wasn't sitting. So I actually decided to go into having my own Enneagram coach and we explored seven and eight. I felt the intensity of the eight, I felt the you know, the playful and distracting and all the things of the seven, but not the stereotypical of each of those, and they just you know the back and forth. I felt sensitive but also aggressive, and we're just trying to like put that together.
Speaker 2:At one point I was advised to move towards six, because they always say you can't find your type, you're either a nine or six. Right towards six, because they always say you can't find your type. You're either a nine or a six, right? So I did sit with that a little longer than I had sat with the eight and seven, but the growth work for a six just didn't resonate. I was like, okay, cool, yeah, duh, it just wasn't anything that I felt like I needed to really work on. So I kind of went back to the drawing board and I was like I really think I'm in the heart center and that's where I kind of I went almost back to the four and I knew it wasn't four, but maybe I'm within those.
Speaker 2:That grouping Um and so when I learned about subtypes, subtypes was my clear aha moment, because I'm not the stereotypical three and that's why I dismissed it. I'm a sexual three, so I don't have a drive to be the CEO, to be valedictorian, to be, you know, have all these social type recognitions and achievements. So when I did learn about the other variations and I read the sexual three and I was like disgusted, it was the gut punch, you know, the like okay, yeah, and there it was, was, and there was no questioning after that. There wasn't trying to like okay, but I get this, but not this. You know, like you try to figure out how to explain some of the things that don't match prior. But everything just clicked into place and, like I said, you just had that like yeah, that's me. Yeah, and the growth work made sense. You know, the more I learned about it, the more I was like, yep, that's me. So I recognized that assertiveness that I had.
Speaker 1:I just was trying to like place where it belonged yes, yeah, okay, that is interesting, especially for this episode, because you, you could, could have always probably known yeah, I'm in that assertive stance somewhere, but then finding yourself in the heart triad with type three made sense. Um, I did record in, uh, an episode with enneagram coach wendy busby, um, about instincts and subtypes. So if any of you guys are listening and you're like, oh, I need to learn more about the subtypes, you can go back and find that episode. It's more of a like Enneagram 301. It's kind of a deep dive in episode, but it could be interesting for those of you who already know a lot of the basics about the Enneagram. Thanks, amanda, caleb. Have you always known? You were a seven or how did you figure it out?
Speaker 3:So my sort of like background in the psych happened because I would say like in late high school I had a friend that read this book. That is basically like oh, if someone's like being belligerent at you, the only answer you have to say to them is no. I was like that works really good, and so that kind of got me curious. The next thing we did together was like MBTI. So we did some Myers-Briggs um, basically took some tests um, and also figured out over time that I'm probably an ESTP, or extroverted sensing, thinking, perceiving Um. So that kind of took me through like mid-20s, later 20s, um. I accidentally found a another test that could do the percentages of the functions underneath it.
Speaker 3:So then I found out, oh, I'm really strong on my introverted thinking, ti, which is critical thinking um, I've always been strong on my extroverted sensing, which is like I'll notice everything in the environment and react to it and hear everything and smell everything and do everything and so like as a, as a younger person maybe, knowing that I was like really active, but not knowing that I was a, a hardcore critical thinker till maybe like partway through college.
Speaker 3:So I was like fun, fun, fun, fun. And I was like oh hey, I'm actually kind of good at like figuring stuff out or systematizing things or whatever. So so that then the ti kind of started settling in. The introverted thing you start settling in, um, I would say a little bit of like extroverted feeling is the tertiary on the estp. Extroverted feeling meaning like, do I adhere to societal values? Do I take, maybe, emotional cues? Am I empathetic? Things like that Younger me might be like, oh, I don't really care what other people are feeling because I'm having fun, fun, fun. But it's like, oh, the older I got, as I went into my later 20s, caring about what other people thought mattered, caring about what other people thought mattered.
Speaker 3:And so like that got me through the later 20s. Enneagram happened about two years ago. There's a little bit of time spent with StrengthsFinder, which is a fun little assessment for, like, if you're in the workplace. But I'm things like Maximizer, individualization, some of the other ones, and I found out I had a communication which is like I like talking and teaching and also I like Individualization, which is kind of like that was something that was taking task and person and marrying them together, kind of like so you could like coach people into what they might have passion for or might be good at. So that's sort of like the beginning of like, oh, I'm understanding, maybe I'm a little bit teach, maybe a little bit coach, which kind of goes towards like our enneagram coaching, um, and then I would say, yeah, within about the last two years or so my friend was like, oh, so you figure out something's fun as you figured out mbti, you really need to check out Enneagram if you're trying to figure out, because you know the spouse and I were kind of fighting about stuff here and there and we're like why are we fighting? And then it was OK, check out this podcast called Enneagram in Marriage and like, maybe you'll find stuff about the Enneagram and maybe you'll figure out some stuff about you and your wife. So long story short there basically started listening through everything.
Speaker 3:From the beginning I was like this is really good stuff. I need to learn it as soon as possible and the fastest I could do that was to take the coaching course with these lovely people. So, you know, did the coaching course, I was like, oh my God, I need to learn everything. It was fire hose and just kind of starting to listen through there. It was like okay, and just kind of starting to listen through there. It was like, okay, I know I'm an ESTP, but the podcast host was probably an ENFP or maybe an ENFJ or she waffles in there.
Speaker 3:So I was like she says she's a seven, but I'm not like that. Like I do think into future and plan future. I do like taking care of myself and knowing I'm okay. But like I have a picture of multiple friends that are like this, like I call them the emotional cheerleader, like they're always up for something, they always had something nice to say, um, they always seemed very intent on self-care and like running all that stuff. So I guess, like I sort of was like there's something wrong here. Why is it that, uh, the tests say I'm probably somewhere six, seven, eight. I act like all those things but like why do I act nothing? Or I don't think I'm all that close to this podcast host who's a seven but unfp.
Speaker 3:So then, kind of um that, uh, hearing about things like the instincts um, hear about things like stances, sort of helped like narrow down. Okay, I'm a self-preserving seven Um and I'm more of a. I'm really into my thinking part of my seven um, which is probably the ESTP coming out, it's the critical thinking part of the seven um. Maybe we'll talk wings later, but I'll just say, like I know I wing into the six, I also wing into the eight, uh, and I'm a hardcore into my um, arrow into the five um and try type of seven, three, but I'm maybe you'll talk about that one day, but that's my little intro.
Speaker 1:Yes, triple assertive seven three, eight, that's right, you are triple assertive. It's cool, I. I love hearing everybody comes at enneagram from a different angle, right, and you're like, okay, I have the background of all the different personality systems of this and this and this, and then how does enneagram fit into that? But it's all, they're all good tools, right, we love using whatever tools work.
Speaker 4:All right, miss kathleen, okay about six years ago, my husband and I were going to go on a cruise and a person who taught the Enneagram was going to be on it. So of course, I got to learn about it, took the test eight and so I knew I was an eight, because I like to be in charge, like to be the boss, I love to bark orders, be in control. I mean it fits me my job being in charge. I do very well in emergencies because I just react. Last is feelings. I know we're going to get there, but I'm like, oh, that fit me. I'm married to a nine and, you know, when I make decisions I don't care about feelings, you know, and that's typical eight. I mean I'm also self-prez and so I like to make sure things are well, we're having enough to eat, you know, nice home. And then, about a year after that, or two years, I took the tri-type and I'm an 8-3-5. And I can just see how sometimes I go to five, which is also where the eight goes to. Sometimes I go to three. I'm very competitive and I like to win.
Speaker 4:So, adding that, of course, I had to study, and that was with Catherine Favre, and then it got to be last year of 2022. I wanted to be a coach because I wanted to learn more, but it didn't work out because we were remodeling our kitchen. I'm like that's not good, so I decided to sign up and do it this year, and so it's just. I love learning and I'm a classic eight. My husband's a nine. He doesn't like being a nine. I'm like, well, why not? I think, eight, maybe seven, maybe three, we, I think we like our number. I didn't have any problems figuring it out, you know, um, it was very accurate. I've done some other tests that have me different and I'm like, no, I'm an eight, you know, classic eight. You know like to be the boss, like to be in charge and my like my three children husband, if somebody goes after them, I get very protective.
Speaker 4:I'm a big justice fighter, especially at something I also can detect incompetence or people who don't know what they're talking about. If they encounter me and they act like they know, I can detect I don't know, you don't know what they're talking about. If they encounter me and they act like they know, I can detect I don't know, you don't. And so I call it my incompetence meter. My husband goes what? And so, yeah, classic A and I like it. I mean there are some negative things, but I like being in it. It worked very well in my job but it works. Going through life, the older I get, I'm learning.
Speaker 4:I don't like incompetence, people who don't use common sense. You know, I just don't put up with it. I'll say something and I will if I see a situation. This is something else needs to. If it's inefficient, it's like well, we always do it that way. Well, that's a dumb way. It's so inefficient you can do it in five minutes instead of 30. So, and it's like that is so dumb, you can streamline this. I live in greater Minneapolis, which Minnesota tends to be a very nine culture, very passive, aggressive, which drives me nuts. It's like come on, you know, just say it as it it is. It's like going back in high school and people will be mad at you because you did something last week and they'll never talk to you again. It's like, oh my god, it's ridiculous. So I've lived all over the US California, pittsburgh, florida, ohio, yeah which of those places had the most eight-ish culture.
Speaker 4:I like Pittsburgh because it's back east, because one of the 13 colonies, and people liked you as you were and you could say what you wanted. People moved on Like that's how you dealt. That tends to be a back east culture and that was okay and they didn't care if you said something Like if you had a bad company, don't use that company, and so that's much more accepting and very strong opinions, especially strong opinionated women. A lot of men don't like that and so you know I just have no respect for some men is what it goes to like if you can't stand up and you can't ask me a question or you have to go to my husband instead of me. That is ridiculous. That happens with my neighbor and I was like I don't even respect the guy is so ridiculous.
Speaker 1:Doesn't listen to this no, he doesn't he would so oh, that's awesome. I I just think everybody I hope you all were listening very closely, because that was an amazing description of an Enneagram 8 woman. I love it. I am married to an Enneagram 3 and 90% of the complaints he talks to me about work have to do with incompetencies and inefficiencies. Amanda, do you have something to say about that?
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, incompetency, and the smallest to the biggest things I do not tolerate, and you will hear about it too.
Speaker 1:either the face will tell you or I'll actually tell you yeah, drives me nuts, we got stuff to do, yeah um, this is supposed to be like, uh, in the middle of our agenda, but I'm gonna get to it now because you guys have already kind of brought it up. But we can talk about the assertive stance, one thing that actually let me back up. I'm gonna read a little bit from this truity article just to give everybody a bit of a context of what the assertive stance is. You also might have heard it called the aggressive stance. It's, we're talking the same thing.
Speaker 1:Enneagram teachers like to use all different kinds of terms to describe the same thing. You'll listen to a lot of different Enneagram people and they want to call the one topic three different names, but that's okay. Assertive, aggressive it's the same thing. So stances define how types move in the world to get what they need. So the assertive stance types move against people to get what they need, and so these types are bold, assertive. They carry a strong energy with their presence and they often feel like others move too slowly for them. They work to push their own agenda forward and get others on board with their big ideas. I want to talk to you guys about this phrase. They often feel like others move too slowly for them. How do we feel about that. Everybody is nodding. By the way, if you're just listening to this, everybody in the chat is nodding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my poor five husband has a lot to say about that. He calls me the Texas tornado.
Speaker 1:Amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause I go buzzing around getting stuff done and if you're in my way, I will either go around you or let you know you're in my way, either physically, like I've even done the like let's go, let's move. You know I can be a little condescending. It could be from someone walking slowly in front of me, it could be talking slowly, processing slowly. That was one of the things I had to learn in our marriage. Real quick was when I would ask a question and an argument. He would just sit there and I'm like what's going on, buddy? And he's like having to process, and I I was just like I need an answer and he couldn't. And so I had to learn that he actually needs a lot more processing time than I do. So now it's like do you need time to process? He's like yeah, and I'm like cool, cause I got stuff to do.
Speaker 2:So you know he takes his time and then we table the issue and come back to it later. But I do get very impatient. Um, I'm a fast driver, fast Walker, fast talker. Um, I even I know this will come up later, but I moved through my emotions quickly and I have to say some of the people that I can keep up with, or keep up with me, is my best friend who's a seven and I actually have me, is my best friend who's a seven, and I actually have a best friend who's a sexual six but mimics eight very much so, so she's got that higher energy and we can just, you know, get stuff done.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, it's not so much accuracy as it is efficiency yeah, I appreciate you bringing up that, even in relationships like it matters that we pay pay attention to what stances other people are in, because the processing speed is very, is very important and you can get into a lot, of, a lot of tension and conflict with people if you're in different stances, very different processing speeds, but you don't realize it right. You're in different stances, very different processing speeds, but you don't realize it right. You're just missing each other. This happens with my husband and I like I said he's a three, he processes way faster than I do and we'll be sitting in the car and I respond to something he said or he says something, and then I'm literally like sitting there for two minutes thinking, processing, and then he says something totally different topic. He's totally moved on and I was like wait, I was still thinking about that, I had something to say, but he's like he's done, he processed it, caleb, what about you?
Speaker 3:I love the the think fast, drive fast, move fast. Can you all just think a little bit faster, please? Um, because I totally get it. So I'm married to a one and she's a sexual one. I'm a self-pressed seven. Part of being self-pressed seven is preserving my own time, so I don't like to take my sweet time. Getting to where I'm going, like I don't feel the dread of oh no, I'm running later. There's just a joy to me of like there are gaps in here that I can get through. Like I'm not cutting people off, but like I can, I'm gonna beat everyone there by five, ten minutes. I always do, um, and it's not because I'm being a jerk about it, it's just because, like, I'm choosing to move through. Um, yeah, funny, thought about like the getting people to think faster. Yeah, I, I've noticed that actually, this is something that someone had to tell me, and that is one of my Enneagram coaches, who was a one also one.
Speaker 3:She said you are thinking faster than your one spouse and it is causing you to get mad that you're being stonewalled. Or it is causing you to get mad because you want to get to the solution and you don't like this, like we're not okay moment. So let's just figure it out, okay. But they're still stewing, or they haven't figured out why they're upset, or maybe they're still reacting to the fact that we're having a negative moment. So now she's reacting to the negative moment we're not actually moving forward and solving so.
Speaker 3:A lot of times, if I have conflict with my one wife, it often has to do with like, oh, you know, I noticed that something was out of place. Wife takes that personally. It becomes an emotion thing. I'm like I just wanted to like, you know, moving forward, let's just keep this a certain way. But all of a sudden it's become now she's justifying why she's allowed to be upset, that I'm reacting to her or that I'm saying anything. So, um, yeah, totally get the. Sometimes like I'll, I'll meet. Uh, I might meet. Like, uh, there there could be people who are I want to say this in Enneagram terms, but for lack of Enneagram terms, I might say something like an ENFP or ENTP Myers-Briggs, they're going to be more like oh, let's try that, let's try that, let's try that, but they're not like thought out, try that.
Speaker 3:They're like anything can happen, so why don't we try everything Right? So in response to that, I'm like I actually do need you to condense down to what actually does count, because you're wasting my time, because you didn't bother figuring out what was worthwhile. It's funny because a lot of my friends have told me that I am a think as I talk and think at the same time. But I also don't have wasteful talk. Usually, if I'm talking, there is you're getting some nuance, you're getting some factual, you're getting some like how I got there and doing value add.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people who maybe don't do as much thinking as maybe we might do on this call they might see it as overwhelming. But I'm giving you like a context and I respect you enough to form your opinions. For my context, like it's a respect thing and if I want to figure something out, I would hope that everyone would give me everything that matters and then I'll make my own decision. Um, so that, yeah, that's a little bit about how I interact with others. It was funny because I didn't want to say that other people were slower, but I'm realizing maybe some people are slower, and if they're slower I'm not respecting them if I don't give them the time to come back with their response. So sometimes I'm like, okay, we can put a pin in it, but I'm waiting for you to come back to me, and so that's something I'm growing in this year who, like myself, I can immediately say I am slower processor, slower moving person than you guys, and that's okay, it is what it is.
Speaker 1:But for some of us like it's helpful to say, can we talk about this again in two days? And for you guys, it's probably helpful to say, yeah, I'm not going to sit here and watch you think about it for an hour. Let's talk again in two days when you're ready, Because in the meantime I have other things to do. Right.
Speaker 4:And Kathleen, I am in two days when you're ready, because in the meantime I have other things to do. Right, and, kathleen, I am dying to hear from you. I'm married to a nine and so, like, if something happens, I blow up. Oh, this is ridiculous, this is like I have to vent. I just dealt with this stupid person. Oh my gosh, then I'll vent.
Speaker 4:And then sometimes my husband thinks I'm mad at him. I'm like what? Or we might have had an intense discussion and he still thinks about it. The him. I'm like what. Or we might have had an intense discussion and he still thinks about it the next day. I'm like, what are you talking about? Well, I thought you're still upset with me. I go, I'm done, I forgot about it. You have to remind me. If we're going to table it, you're going to have to give me some more information, because I already forgot about it.
Speaker 4:Like I have moved on and I used to say to my kids when they were little okay, let's go, let's go, and so you know, like, if there's something to discuss, I want to discuss it now. And if my husband isn't aware, I'm trying to develop more patience. He's getting better, but sometimes he doesn't know what's going on. And so I said, do you want to table it like he says? He calls it a fight. I'm like, no, a fight is physical contact. I bring in Webster's and I go. We're having an intense discussion, exchange of words. So you know. But if I get really mad, watch out because I like to win. There's my three and so I can get in a discussion and I can throw those. I can recall a lot, of, a lot of facts and I usually win arguments, especially if I'm super mad. You know, hey, and I'll bring in all these details, I'll bring in facts, I'll just start throwing the darts and he's like or if I meet somebody else who's decided because I'm a woman, I'm dumb or I'm incompetent, and then I can start firing back.
Speaker 4:I can ask so many questions, you get overwhelmed because you can't answer them. I do that when I go to doctor's appointments because I have medical knowledge. I'll meet a fellow or you know doctor who thinks I'm Mrs Smith, the homemaker, and then he'll start asking questions and he doesn't know. Then I'll say I turn around, I start asking him questions and then I just saw somebody in the box. My cardiologist comes back. He goes that lady is the smartest patient I've ever met in my life. She knows a lot because I had to educate them on.
Speaker 4:When you go to see a patient, you really need to spend five to 10 minutes time, not just three minutes, so that you actually get all the data and the most important parts of the chart to look at. So that's if I get really irritated or mad. Or you think I'm dumb, so that really is a hot button. Or you think I'm dumb, so that really is a hot button. Or you think I'm incompetent. If I determine you're incompetent, then I'm going to prove to you you're incompetent.
Speaker 4:So and I have tried as I get older, try to be better with my husband, because he moves much slower, Sometimes he's unaware and so sometimes I'll bring it. I'll say you need some time. Hey, that's okay, I said, but when you're ready to come back, you're gonna have to remind me of this topic that we're having, because I've already forgot about it. So that's one thing when you move fast, you just forget about it, like, and he's like well, we just had a discussion yesterday. I go what did we discuss? I already forgot about it. And it's like he goes how could you said I'm sorry, I just moved on to my next task for my next job.
Speaker 4:As you move through life, it's true, and it's like you just forgot this biggest fight we ever had and I'm like sorry, dear. So that's you know, that's one thing. When you move quickly because it's not important anymore, you know, we discussed it or when I have much younger, when we were first married, I could say the first 25 years, one vacation, I picked the vacation spot because I was paying for it. So I said he who makes the gold makes the rule, picks the vacation spot. I love to go to the beach, read books, work on my tan and then later on my kids are adults. I hated going to the beach and I'm like, well, maybe I shouldn't have picked that way, but that was like my heaven. I got energized, my husband's pale, I get tanned. We always brought an umbrella and stuff, but he doesn't like going to the beach and recently, two years ago, I never want to go to the beach again.
Speaker 4:I said okay so he'll use words like never and I have to remind him be careful, because that is 100.00 percent of the time. You never want to do that. Now what happens if one of our on a beach wedding? He doesn't think like that, and so when someone says never I go. Do you realize, 100.00 percent time? And so I have to remind them. I'm also an ESTJ, which I think they're very direct and I like to deal with logic, facts, and I'll remind my husband evidence. Look at all the black and white evidence. When you're trying to make a decision about something, bring me the. I like the evidence, maybe because of the eight and three and five is logical, so I like to provide logic.
Speaker 1:Let's kick it over to Caleb.
Speaker 3:I think he's got something to add to that I just realized, kathleen, after you're talking about like everyone's just too slow. I think the thing I say the most to both of my kids, as well as the wife, is keep moving, keep moving, keep moving. Get into the house, keep moving, get in line, get out of line, get to get to class, like they just they lollygag everywhere, like. And the funny thing is that we're walking as a family from, like, the car to church, like if the girls are holding on to my spouse, they'll just like lollygag and waddle their way up. And it's funny because my spouse is the one so you think she'd want to be on time, but no, she's kind of like waddles her way up and I'm like, let's go, let's go, like, keep moving yeah sorry, I say that the most it's true, this is hilarious.
Speaker 2:I mean, we are so one in same. It's so funny because I don't wait for my, my family when we're going into, like I'm gone. I'm like you know how to get there. You don't need me to show you into the building Like we got to get there. I do want to be on time. Like I don't want to be those straggler coming in and everybody looking at you like don't know how to take care of yourself, Like I want to be competent, Like I know my stuff, I know when to be there, I'm taking care of my business. So if my uh, my five husband, I'm like I'm out, you know where, does you know where I'll be? They just know. I'm like I'm not waiting on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, and I resonate with the nine in our fights when we table it or when we've talked about it, resolved it. He'll come back later and he'll be like I'm so sorry. I'm so I'm like what are you sorry about? And he'll bring it up. I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally forgot. Now you just start it all up again.
Speaker 2:Like I thought we had moved on from that and he's still still trying to process it. And I'm like we said what we needed to say it's been solved. Why are you still stop saying you're sorry, we're not, we've moved on. So, yeah, I, Kathleen, I'm like it's doesn't? It's not helpful to just, you know, go on and on and on and on. But yeah, so this is interesting that we're all different types, all different centers right Heart, head and gut but we have that huge similar component and it sounds like we have some of the same parts of us in our, our tri-type, because I'm pretty sure I'm a three, seven, eight, pretty sure that's Caleb yeah, so we all have the three and the eight each other somewhere, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm obsessed with this conversation.
Speaker 2:I'm never gonna stop making podcasts you're getting lots of energy, that's for sure this is amazing.
Speaker 1:Okay, guys, we gotta talk about feelings now. I'm so sorry, okay. Amanda cringed, kathleen shrugged like it's fine and caleb just went quick blank face. Um, okay. So in this truity article we read that to the assertive types, feelings seem counterproductive. That's all I'm gonna say.
Speaker 2:Take it away, you guys okay, I guess this is the three. I'm start first um, it gets in the way, it just gets in the way. Um, whether it's I'm, it's intense. So emotions are very intense, overwhelming for me. So it gets in the way from what I want to do. So it's easier to, if I most likely, set it aside and take care of business.
Speaker 2:I see it, I recognize it, I feel it, I see it in other people. That's my heart, right Like I'm, I can see other people's emotions, I can feel the emotions. It just doesn't feel like in that moment it's going to serve me to what I need to do, to what I need to do. So I moved through them quickly. Like I mentioned earlier, I had a coworker. She came and told me something and it pissed me off to no end and I went from extremely angry to the processing out loud. Kayla mentioned that like I literally process, I think out loud to processing it, seeing a different perspective and then kind of calmly resolving it. And she goes oh my gosh, I've never seen someone work through all of that so quickly Like she was. Just like this is crazy and it is that release the steam.
Speaker 2:And then it's easier for me to go into the intellectual aspect of it and, you know, take action Right. So I recognize it, I feel it, but I want to get through it. I don't want to sit in it, I don't want to like, process it, feel it, you know, like a lot of times they say, sit with the emotion, articulate what it is, you know and just where's it coming from. No, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you want to talk about how we've learned to work through those things yet, but, um, it, it's, it's, it's just too much, it's overwhelming, the emotions are overwhelming. So it's easier to just turn it into something intellectual, take action towards or just set it aside for when I can touch on it, especially by myself myself. I do not want to have to deal especially with, like sadness or you know, those kinds of more vulnerable emotions in front of other people. So if that is what's going on, it's like I have to set it aside to be able to to go there later. Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So you just ended with saying to go there later, so do to go there later. Yeah, okay, okay. So you just ended with saying to go there later, so do you go there later um, I am working on that now, okay, so let's circle back to that then. Yeah, yeah, um, how about you, caleb?
Speaker 3:what amanda said in her first like three words they get in the way, like. I literally thought that even before she said it, and then she said the exact same thing. I was like they get in the way. Um, I would not say that I'm like do I have emotions? Yes, can I tell when something's really sad, or wow, that's, that's, wow, that's sad.
Speaker 3:Um, but like I don't have, I seem to get the feeling that my spouse has emotions on the daily and the emotions are stronger. It's like she's raging and maybe this is because she's body top, but she's like raging about how something's like she's raging about how you know the girls aren't like getting their stuff done in time, or didn't brush your teeth, or like I just got a text about something about like can we have, uh, can we do takeout tonight, because girls have to do piano, whatever, so, and I can tell that there's some intensity in there. So, um, when I notice that other people have these like they go emotion up, down, up, down, up down, like, maybe like multiple times throughout the day, I assume something is wrong like what's going on with that?
Speaker 3:um, I wonder if I'm because maybe I'm a thing for seven, like I don't really have emotions that go up or down throughout the day, unless it's like I think I have two modes happy, I'm happy with you guys, or someone cuts me off. I'm just gonna have to show or like happy and I'm content. Maybe that's some mode, happy content. And then there's like a little bit of like okay, if you're gonna like okay. So part of being let go was we were let go unfairly and other people took our credit and the last thing my director did in my last meeting with her, like two days before getting let go, was oh, my gosh, you like quadrupled our revenue with only a slight increase in spend. High five, she high-fived me in our last meeting ever and so like the, the, that whole week and after I was just like Ooh, you know, and that brings out the three man, like I'm like, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to get the best job ever, ever. I'm gonna like show how stupid you people are. I'm allowed to say that. Just like, we built you guys from 150 000 revenue to 2.5 million revenue per month and I was a huge part of that and you know that, but you can't handle it. So now I'm like you know.
Speaker 3:So I feel like I have, um, I have two emotions, it's like maybe three. Uh, happy content. Um, I can be sad if something's really sad or like there's a loss or something like that, and then I can be like angry, competitive. There's like my, my, my trifecta. Um, I feel like I don't have issues having emotions. In fact, most of the time they don't. Uh, I thought it was interesting that amanda mentioned that they were like almost overpowering. Um, I don't feel them that strongly. I feel them probably at about if this is the whole screen, I'm feeling them like right around here like they're just kind of like, kind of there, like almost yes, because I'm processing.
Speaker 3:So uh, when emotions get actually kind of um concerning for me or when other people are having them, if the one spouse is reacting to the fact that I said like oh well, I kind of wanted steak, then on her side she'll be like he's not listening to me, he doesn't care about getting the girl stuff done in time, he doesn't have to put the backpacks together, which it's work. I know like it's hard being mom, but it's like like if she's asking like what should we do for dinner? Like yeah, one time she asked like hey, what should we do for dinner? I'm like I want Texas roadhouse. I just need a big fat ribeye, you know. And she's like but it's a Monday and Mondays mean this and this and the girls have this and the girls have that. They have to go to bed by about this. And she's like well, you know, the moms are thinking about that stuff. You're not. But like I'm like if my spouse asked me what I want for dinner, am I not allowed to say steak? You know so and so like we get these, I get big reactions.
Speaker 3:Like I also get confused when that happens at work. I also get confused when that happens. At work you can have the CEO getting really mad about something Like I see less of like people getting like emotionally, like sad at work. But yeah, like I get confused a little bit. I'm like how is almost view the emotion as you're getting stuck, view the emotion as you're getting stuck, and because usually the emotion is like they're mad or they're like sad or some version of like a not content, happy emotion, like well, if you're not content, happy, and maybe this is all press if you're not happy, not content. I have a noticing when the spouse does more body work, everything is a lot better her emotions. They actually start compressing. Uh, they don't, they're not as wild, they're more like oh, I, you know, maybe I don't like that, but uh, what I've also found is when the spouse's emotions have been more like compressed, like less wild swings, but just more like, you know, just like little um. It allows us to have more thinking conversations um that I know that are not personal, they're just like oh, um. It allows us to have more thinking conversations um that are that are not personal, they're just like oh well, here's my perspective. Here's my perspective. Okay, cool, can we find a middle?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd say like in terms of like loss, like, uh, we failed at foster one time that was probably sad, for I don't know, three, four months I've had, like you know, best friend type people pass away. That was probably, you know, it was like four or five months. So maybe I don't know if that's normal. But yeah, I would say, like day to day, like I'm very able to react to whatever is happening and I'm fine, adaptable, like you don't see me going, you know, but it's just like, oh, yeah, we're going to do like I've already thought through, or the other thing about like sort of talking, as we think is, by the time we're done talking, we have a solution and we're moving.
Speaker 3:And I think a lot of people don't recognize that because they're like, oh, why, you know why? Why does it seem like you just like arbitrarily something? It wasn't arbitrary, we actually thought through all the implications. You just couldn't keep up or you weren't thinking fast enough. But yeah, oftentimes I'll be at work and I'll instantly know you're going to kill the company. I'll instantly know that's going to have revenue by. You know that's going to kill revenue by half. You do that. You're going to piss off the off the customers. I know instantly. But it's an instant because I connected a whole bunch of dots in a very short amount of time and I learned from other friends also in that same context, like just really good leaders. They're like, oh uh, we agreed with you, we just didn't see it in that moment. It took time for us to catch up so I was like that's very interesting. So anyway, that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 1:I relate very much to many things you said about your wife, so I don't know.
Speaker 3:Like I'm the failing husband seven of the one and I'm just doing, I'm probably doing it wrong, to be honest. So you tell me, what should I you?
Speaker 1:know, I mean I think I love the tip about body work and I mean body work is important for all of us, all nine types, but I will say especially, especially for body types eight, nine and one like that. Body work is so important because we do just get the feelings and the rage and the anger it just gets lodged in our body, um. So yeah, I like that tip, um, but, kathleen, it's your turn.
Speaker 4:I have to agree with them. You know, I know my emotions, especially anger, can come out. And let's say, when I used to work and somebody would screw me, stab me in the back, you know, then I'm going to be determined and if I see a problem I'll solve the problem, but I'll remember that I can't trust them. You know, I have to make sure I do part of their work or whatever. But anger comes out easily. Or if it's not appropriate time, I don't usually get passive, aggressive, so I might be very strong and direct with my tongue and say this isn't this, you know. Or if they do something, then I might start throwing my darts going oh you did this, this, that was this, you screwed up that, whatever. This just depends. Or you know that, um, probably anger is my biggest one. I do get sad, but it's. I'm watching a movie or something. But sometimes, oh, a year ago, right before my second daughter got married, we were sitting getting ready for the wedding, sitting five days before, and her fiance said that the wedding is only for his family because most of his relatives were coming. So we're only should focus on his last name's Metta. We're only, this is only for the Mettas. We were talking about the music, walking the bride down the aisle, you said that to the mother of the bride. That didn't go very well. I got so mad. I said you know, you're rude and ignorant. That was so rude and ignorant to say that. Then he got mad. And then the room got quiet. My daughter goes. Bobby, what did you? I can't believe. You just said that to my mother. What were you thinking? And then he supposedly mumbled. He was sorry, but that one took me a while to process. Then people decided to leave and later I said, you know, melissa, him saying it's only about him and his family. That was a deep stab to my heart and I had to process it. And then I had to. Here I am crying because I never cry. She's like mom, I can't believe. I said Melissa, that was a deep hurt, that was a deep wound to my heart to say it's only about him, like our family doesn't matter, like. And then it's two more days. She's like, I can't believe you're crying. I'm like, yeah, because that really hurt him saying mean things to me and about you. And then my oldest came the next day and then we went out to breakfast and I was talking about it again and I'm crying.
Speaker 4:My daughter goes. I don't think he meant it on purpose, but I think he did mean it because I had said a few mean things to him and I think he was trying to get me back. But I'm okay about it. But you know at the time and I think, yes, it is like compartmentalized or you know, but I know, when I never did my body work, my emotions could be up and down. You know that's important for eight times ones. But um, I don't think I have these swings, because I try to get my walk in every day. But if I encounter somebody thinks I'm stupid, assume something about me, or I determine they're incompetent, then I get angry and I'll start going after them to prove they're incompetent.
Speaker 4:So that's when it comes out. But otherwise, you know I like the piles, so I can easily get anger if you do or say something. You know watch a sad movie, but the deep, deep, those don't come out too often unless somebody does something that throws the dirt to the heart. And I, if it's okay to process it, then but I do process fast. But if it was something deep I might have to think about it and think what should I say, what should I do, how I come back. But most of the time I can talk and process it, just like Caleb said. I would agree with that.
Speaker 4:Because you're doing it and people go. You just said this and this and now you have your solution. Yeah, because it's like yeah, I do think, but do and think almost at the same time, which my husband goes. How did you just do that? He, he can't keep up, he doesn't understand. Sometimes I go why don't you just ask me? You're gonna ask me a bizarre question. I'll answer it. But most people I don't think they can keep up with how quick we do stuff, process it. You know we can put dots together very fast and I don't think people can. They can't fathom that you're capable of doing so. So many times they they sell a short. Oh, you couldn't do that. Well, why do you think that you never met me?
Speaker 1:yeah, so that's what I would say so, okay, I'm thinking about this, this idea of we move so fast, we can think so fast, and also we're putting the feelings to the side, which is why we can move so fast. And a lot of times, the problem that other people have with the people in your stance is, oh, they heard my feelings and didn't notice, or oh, they didn't take the people into account. So we know that feelings are important, right, we're all adults, we know that feelings matter, and I just want to hear if you guys can think of, like, maybe, a story of a way that you've grown with your emotional processing. Hey guys, I'm actually going to end this episode here. I added a part two to this episode, so if you'd like to continue the conversation, head on over to part two.
Speaker 1:If you liked this episode, let me know. I'd love to hear from you. Tell me what other topics you'd love to hear covered on this podcast and, as always, you can find more content on my Instagram at Towards Eden Enneagram, as well as on Facebook Towards Eden Enneagram and my website, towards Eden Enneagram dot com.