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Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
The Enneagram is an amazing tool to help us have way better relationships - and grow emotionally + spiritually.
On this podcast you'll hear stories of people using the Enneagram personality tool
to understand themselves and the people in their worlds.
& I (Elyse) will teach you how to use the Enneagram system so that you feel empowered to use this tool in your own life.
Let's get curious about each others' stories and grow together 🌿
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#14 - The Assertive Stance, part 2
Part 2 of this conversation.
Listen in on this fun, high-energy conversation about the Assertive Stance.
The Enneagram assertive stance (Types 3, 7, and 8) is characterized by a forward-moving, action-oriented approach to life, often focused on achieving goals, seeking excitement, or asserting control. These types tend to rely on their own energy and drive to shape their circumstances, sometimes overlooking emotional or relational nuances in the process.
Amanda (Type 3), Caleb (Type 7), and Kathleen (Type 8) share all about what it's like to be in the Assertive Stance.
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Amanda Nagy is a certified Enneagram coach, psychology instructor, and a health coach. She has 3 years of experience in coaching, 17 years of teaching high school and college students, and 13 years of school counseling. Amanda is a TX native but has lived in ID for the last 22 years with her husband of 14 years and their adopted dachshund/beagle mix. Find her on Instagram @nagyonfire.
Caleb Chao is the Senior Manager, Search Strategy at SportRx in San Diego, CA. He is a 15-year veteran of the internet marketing industry with agency, brand, and entrepreneurial expertise in PPC/SEM, SEO, content marketing, analytics, client management, conversion optimization, digital & business marketing, and sales/operations strategy. Caleb is passionate about the intersection of psychology, marketing, sales, behavior, technology and economics. Caleb recently celebrated his 16th wedding anniversary yesterday (10/8), and has two girls Ashlynn (8) and Paige (6). He absolutely adores being a girl dad. It's literally the best thing.
Kathleen is the oldest of 3 girls, was put in charge of her sisters throughout childhood and was told she needed to be a role model for her younger sisters. So she exceeded in school and college. She’s currently 67 years old and lives in Minnesota with her husband. Her three adult children live all over the world. Kathleen worked as an operating room RN - a job that required quick thinking, life or death decisions, and a strong personality to advocate for patients. Kathleen saved hundreds of lives throughout her career.
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For resource recommendations, click here.
The Road Back to You by Ian Cron- start here to find your type
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This is the second part of my assertive stance conversation with Amanda, caleb and Kathleen.
Speaker 1:So, okay, I'm thinking about this idea of we move so fast, we can think so fast and also we're putting the feelings to the side, which is why we can move so fast, and a lot of times the problem that other people have with the people in your stance is, oh, like they hurt my feelings and didn't notice, or oh, they like didn't take the people into account, or oh, they didn't.
Speaker 1:Um, they made a decision so fast but they didn't think about how it's gonna affect the people in the room or affect the emotion. So we know that feelings are important. Right, we're all adults. We know that feelings matter, even though we all all nine numbers are processing feelings in all different types. But our emotions allow us to connect with other people and they allow us to connect with the deeper parts of ourselves, and I know that you guys have done a lot of work to grow out of your comfort zones on connecting with those emotions, and I just want to hear if you guys can think of, like, maybe, a story of a way that you've grown with your emotional processing. Um, yeah, amanda, do you have something?
Speaker 2:yeah, I had many uh, burns, crashes and burns from go go, go, go, go, go um, and therapy for one has been helpful just to have someone to vent to and process with, because she's not my therapist, doesn't constantly interject or ask questions. She might ask questions, but it's someone that's. I don't have to worry about if I'm hurting their feelings or not. You know, like I can say whatever safe space, right. So that's nice to have that place to be able to do that with and she can handle whatever emotions come up.
Speaker 2:Usually I feel like I'm similar to Kathleen and that anger is easier for me. If I'm hurt, I get angry first and then the hurt comes later. But so, yeah, so therapy has been great, but I actually have been very intentional about setting aside at least an hour every night. If I can't do it every night, I try to do five times a week where my family goes to sleep and I stay up, because I'm usually up anyways. Like my span of you know, I get up early and I go to bed late, like I have so much energy. I, you know um, and I will just journal. So it was interesting in the article that it mentioned journaling, so I will just process the day. So I try to what went well that day, what didn't go well that day, any thoughts, emotions that I had to put aside, I try to work through those or at least just write it down.
Speaker 2:I don't have to have the answers or anything. And I was just talking to my mom today that if I don't do that, it feels like I'm carrying a bucket of all the things the emotions, the hurts, the rejections, you know all this stuff and if I don't set it aside and pull it out and work through it, the next day I'm taking that same bucket and just adding more to it. It the next day I'm taking that same bucket and just adding more to it and eventually that bucket gets really heavy, really overwhelming, and what happens is once it hits that overload, overwhelm, then the not nice Amanda comes out and I'm very reactionary and very like the trying to compose myself and look like I have my stuff together kind of goes out the window. So to not have the crashes and burns, to not have the impatience that I can have with people and patience with myself, I have to spend some time processing Um. So that's been within the last couple of months actually, and I've noticed a huge difference in what I can tolerate.
Speaker 2:Um, I also create playlists, so I will do mood playlist. I kind of lean into my wing for there list. I kind of lean into my wing for there, Um, especially the harder, more vulnerable. So if I need to go there, if I need, if that's something I have to process, like, for example I mentioned, my grandfather recently passed. So there's all sorts of processing going on right now and I've kind of had to like set it aside because we have to take care of all the things. But at some point I know I will have to like fully embrace that and grieve that and a playlist that has, like mood, sad, whatever triggers that sometimes I have to play that or watch a TV show or a movie. I know that I'm going to fall just to get that going, that release going.
Speaker 2:I don't like it. I don't want to do it because I hate that feeling of vulnerability. I hate that feeling. But I know that it's healthy for me to go there to process it and get it out of the bucket. So I'm not carrying this whole weight and then it's spilling over on other people, because I really do not want to do that.
Speaker 2:If I find out that I've hurt someone's feelings, it crushes me. I hate it because that is not my intentions at all. I know I can sound abrasive. I know I can sound like I'm a cold hearted bee, you know like, but that's not. Usually it's out of the fact that I do care and I'm trying to help you and I'm telling you the way that needs to be done, or telling you like it is because you need to hear the truth, and so it comes out of a good place.
Speaker 2:But I know it can be misinterpreted, Um, and I know that if I don't do the processing then it can come out really, really bad. It can be more burn, more stinging than it would have. I've done taking care of my stuff, you know so, and my, my husband, is my litmus test. So if cause he can tolerate a lot, so if he's going out, you know he's telling me, girl, rein it in. Then I'm like, okay, need to take a pause, need to do some processing because, um, that's not my intentions at all to hurt people. So, yeah, it is hard because I, but I have this responsibility to help people, to tell them what they they need to know, or they should hear, or or you know, and I can't not do it sometimes and it does, it can come out hurtful.
Speaker 2:Um, so you know the phrase you got to keep your side of the street clean is like that's how I, what I have to do so that when I do get in those modes, that it's not as hurtful because it's not coming out of a pain point.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean so this comes up in counseling a lot. Um, I have a childhood wound that stems from my dad was probably. He was an engineer in the 70s and he worked in like high tech and you could probably endure a little bit of racism in high tech because he was chinese in high tech, um, and you know his english isn't perfect but it's it's, it's passable, but like he would come home from work tired and probably angry, and he grew up being disciplined by his parents and being beat. And so let's just say I was a kid, that was, I always knew what I thought in reaction to someone accusing me of something, and I have this memory of I'm a kid in my parents household they like to blame me for things I didn't do or they're wrong and how they see I did something when I didn't so and every time I was wrong that came with beatings. So I have like a physical aversion to being falsely accused, like that's a big deal.
Speaker 3:Um, I don't know that's necessarily like a a seven thing, but it probably helped make me into a seven because, um, I have to worry about existential threat almost on the daily because, like I'm not allowed to talk back. Well, talking back in american culture is just called communicating right, but in chinese culture, talking back is like do you want to die? Are you disrespecting your elders? Do you know what we had to go through to come to America? I don't know. It's funny because my parents always said I'd make a good lawyer, like a litigator or something they're like you like to argue.
Speaker 3:I'm like I don't like to argue, I like for you to be correct, because when I speak I'm correct in myself of selves, but when you speak you're not. When you speak you're attacking me from some wound you have and I have to lose because I'm weaker right now. But now I'm an adult, right? So we move this forward. You know, I had like therapy through school, which was helpful, but I'd say like, okay, where does this come to head? Well, it comes ahead.
Speaker 3:When we first started doing premarital and, um, uh, if the spouse's wound is abandonment because there's a divorce in their family, then my wound is the false attack and being blamed for something I didn't do. Um, so when it comes to other people's emotions, I don't usually get emotions at work because I'm not like I don't cause, I try not to cause pain to other people. I'm self-president. I want to bring self-president to everybody. Like I want y'all to be happy, calm, zenned out, like, enjoy your soda or your spa, whatever Everyone. Go do your thing, because we'll all be happier because y'all did your thing and you're not getting mad at everybody. Right, we'll all be better because of it. Um, but yeah, when a big emotion comes at me, I can actually usually deal with it if, like I had it coming, like if I disappointed you. Oh, you know, I'll feel bad and I'll apologize because, like I don't like being competent, right, and like I don't like that my incompetency got in your way.
Speaker 3:I don't like that my incompetency made you hurt on some level, like if I'm going to drive fast, I'm not going to cut you off, I'm going to, I'm going to get in front of you so fast you didn't even know I was there, right, like I'm a courteous mover, uh. But so when a unfair emotion comes up, so it's funny because sometimes the counselor will say all emotions are logical and I've heard some therapists say that too I'm like emotions are not logical, I have logical emotions a lot of other people's emotions are arising out of they think I did something to them. My wife grew up kind of codependent in a codependent Asian family and if the husband didn't get up and start doing dishes right away, there was. There was an issue with that. Like I was the unpreferred son-in-law because the other son-in-law just got up right away, started doing dishes. If the mother-in-law wants to sit there and on that fish head for two hours, you best keep your butt in that chair, not get out of there. I thought that was torture and like abuse. Uh, in my spouse's family, staying there and respecting mom by, you know, watching her cook for two hours, then sitting with her while she nod on that fish head for another two hours, then cleaning up with her for another two hours. I mean, I get it like you know there's something to be said about helping and you know being there, but like these weird expectations that you know come from her upbringing being different than mine.
Speaker 3:Then there's the intuition that's like, hey, if you don't do how I expect you to behave, you are some kind of this. And I've discovered that there is a label like oh, you're lazy, you're this, you're this, you're this or you're bad husband, or maybe we just need to not be married. Whatever, it is right, like there's. There's something where it's like um, you, you, uh, caleb, the husband did not do what he was supposed to do in the realm of what the spouse is feeling. So, very quickly, there's a judgment, there's a label, there's an emotion that has intensity and I know I'm seeing that intensity. I'm like I know that you know, if I was going to like be very therapist about it, I'd be like I'm just going to let her spew it all out and then we'll come back, do it later, whatever. Or, like you know, I'll just be her counselor and let her spew on me.
Speaker 3:But I'm like no, this is an existential threat. She has basically accused me of wow, I wantonly don't care about the family so badly that I go do the dishes, or why didn't I bring the trash out this certain way, or why didn't you start the girls baths at this time, or what you know? Whatever reason, I have failed to meet that perfection standard of how she operates. That emotion comes out and I'm like that's not a rational emotion. When that happens, I'll go like well, is that true? Right? Like short of saying like hey, every single time you somehow assume the worst about me, which feels like the worst assumed. It's not like you know, cut slack a little bit. Or maybe like he's kind of evil. No, like she chooses the worst possible reason for why I would not want to do something and it's weird because, you feel?
Speaker 1:huh how's that make?
Speaker 3:you feel it makes me feel incorrectly judged, is that an emotion? It makes me want to like, fight and get even or not even get even. It's like I'm not gonna take this attack. I need to defend it and in the defense of myself I said you know what I see your emotion, but your emotion is incorrect because you're having this emotion because you jumped to some wrong conclusions about me. My reaction to that would be I have to disprove you. If I disprove you, I can survive. If I can't disprove you because now you're throwing emotion at me, I know that I can't beat your emotion with emotion.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I would say like I, uh, if I were to like wrap this all up, I'd say something like um, I, I need your emotion to be accurate. I try not to have unfair emotion at you. Um, if I do have unfair emotion at you, I expect to be called out and I will rapidly like, like, say I'm my bad and I will admit it. But I wish that people would bring that respect to me. But doesn't happen that way A lot of times. The other, maybe it's the other enneagrams or whatever it is, but when other people emotions, it's hard for me to validate them, even though I'm supposed to, because I am sensing that I mean I'm okay with like impacting when they're having issues with other people. It's just when they say it's like with me. I have a really hard time taking responsibility for something I didn't do I?
Speaker 2:I just wanted to say I'm seeing how much Caleb's trying to intellectualize all of it. Like you, your head center is like what you're trying to resolve All of this is like how can I logically explain this? How this doesn't make sense. It needs to, you know, compared to how I see it in the heart center, as her, as working through the actual emotions, you know. So I'm so curious to hear Kathleen's perspective of the body. You know, like we've had a lot of similarities thus far and I'm starting to see and recognize the distinction here, like because of the emotions now we've kind of splintered off into very different perspectives and how we talk about it, view it, experience it. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Like I, this whole time, I'm just I'm waiting for, I think at least it was like for feeling words and there weren't any feeling words coming from Caleb. It was all the like intellectual thinking part of it which is really fascinating to me. Yeah, it's not wrong, it's just that's where I'm seeing the different perspectives of it. So yeah, kathleen, I'd love to hear, like how you would articulate it coming from the gut, you know.
Speaker 4:Well, I can relate to Kayla, because I grew up in an alcoholic home. I was the oldest, I was supposed to be the perfect child and I don't like being misjudged or you assume something about me. And it's like my husband's family. They didn't like me because I talked too much, I asked questions and I finally got so fed up we're not going to go very often. It's what? Because to go there and nobody likes likes me. It's just because I'm slightly different. I said that is insane. So we just didn't visit very often and to this day his sisters don't like me very much. But I could care less. I'd say screw that.
Speaker 4:But as for, that is a big thing, that a hot button is. Why are you judging me? Like my husband I got in a discussion today about he just assumed he's going to ask me a question. It's going to be no, I go. Why are you assuming it's no? Ask me. It's a new day, that. And it's like why are you boxing me in? It's a new day, maybe I'll say yes, you have to ask me first, don't assume. And oh and as for emotions, yes, it's, I get. As for see, how would I articulate it? I can get upset, but when you decide to put your incompetence or your inefficiency or you assume I'm doing that, it's like don't do that to me, you know and you know. You just meet me, ask me questions, find out. Don't just assume I'm a dumb blonde or a female doesn't know anything about building houses or this, because I have lots of experience and so that really will set me off and then I'll get angry and I think I can usually tell the emotions. I sometimes, if I have been very direct and to find out my husband, he's like Whoa, you know. So sometimes I can use him. But sometimes I say sometimes people need to be told the truth. It's like that line with Jack Nicholson you can't handle the truth. Well, that's people's problems. Why can't you handle? You know, I can't help it because you can't handle the truth. Sometimes it's good to shake people up, rock the boat, like I like to go into a room and say survey, say who do you vote for this election? Oh, you don't talk about politics. I, I like because it's fun to see people's reactions, you know. But, and sometimes it's fun just to rock the boat, but I can.
Speaker 4:I totally can relate to Caleb and I. He articulated very well and it's like if you're having a bad day, don't go put your bad day on me. I mean, I used to do that to my husband If he had a bad day and sometimes so he's retired, he works at Home Depot and he works with a variety of customers and he can handle the very strong women who know what they want very well. I said, oh, your wife's that way and he can. Actually he's pretty flexible, but sometimes he'll come and just assume these things about me. And he can actually is pretty flexible, but sometimes he'll come and just assume these things about me. And it's just like why did you do that? Why are you putting that thinking, that presupposition, without assumptions, on me, when you didn't ask me do I want to do this, do I want to do that? And you know so. That will definitely elicit emotion when I can tap into emotions of my close family members. But if I was to meet a stranger, it's less because I don't really care. But I know my close friends, my husband, my adult children, and that's easy to tap into, you know. And as for making decisions, sometimes I always joke with with my husband.
Speaker 4:I don't need to do survey sets. Go around the conference table, what do you want to do? I go. That takes too long and sometimes we need to make the decision quickly. You know, like, if somebody's arresting, hey, I need the crash cart, go get that. Do get, get me this. Like, do you think if you had a moment, could you go get me the crash cart meantime? I need it now, you know. Or if you feel like it, could you go get me the crash cart meantime? I need it now, you know. Or if you feel like it, could you go get me this medication meantime patients are dying. It's like you don't, like, you know, don't have time. Just why do I have to do survey sets? So that's how I look at considering other people's opinions. You know now, if we're going to have a discussion just depends on the topic.
Speaker 4:As for emotions and yeah, sometimes I can be too direct, sometimes I think so. You talked about journaling. So sometimes at the end of the day, if there's a lot of emotions or feelings, so sometimes I will usually try to replay it. Sometimes I'll journal, which is a very good thing thing or maybe I was hurt, so reviewing it is an excellent. I'll go on my walks and then I'll be thinking in my head could I have handled that different? And I also like to look at situation.
Speaker 4:What did I learn? I learned to not be talk too much, not be too direct if I'm in a new setting. So I'm going to hold back that's. I like to write down what lesson I learned, so that's another thing that is very, very helpful. You know, like my husband and I started in a couple's group and I said I'm not going to talk much. Really, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to just observe. You know they ask me a question, I'll say something. He's like whoa, and so on. It's, you know, trying to turn over a new leaf, because sometimes people think, whoa, you know, you could talk all night, true, but so I've learned those lessons elise.
Speaker 3:Can I ask the group a question is Is that allowed? Okay, so I recently had a conversation with uh, I had, like a Korean friend, a Japanese friend, and we were discussing the idea of why is it that in some Asian and maybe there's extrapolations and other cultures, but why is it in a lot of Asian cultures there's this idea of you need to have emotional intelligence such that you can read in between the lines, you know what you're supposed to say and do, and you know what you're supposed to say and not do. When you enter a room. Uh, you know, is a certain way that you greet everyone when you leave the house. Are you expected to de-greet everyone before you leave? Because if you don't, it's rude, and so you know. I was talking with friends about this and it turns out I don't know the word for it, but there's a term in Korean for your level of emotional intelligence such that tons of that stuff does not get said. But how skilled are you at maneuvering and what's not said and like, are you behaving as you're supposed to, given certain stimuli and whatever? And I'm like, oh my God, I suck at that.
Speaker 3:Um, and our kids go go to like a kind of like a Chinese language after school program and like the guy who runs it, he's like a Sifu, he's like old school Chinese and like he gets offended at like weird things. Like, for instance, there's a hip hop teacher and we wanted to hire her to help teach a hip hop birthday for our youngest, and so we thought we would just ask her, like in a very american way, like we can help you with money for college, let's just ask her. We asked her, she checked with sifu. Sifu got pissed. What are you doing, like contacting my person, like she's an asset of this organization? What are you doing? Not asking my permission before speaking to her?
Speaker 3:We're like whoa dude, and I'm like okay, I'm a little american right now, but like okay, uh, like I think I've found I don't know if it's my sevenness or it's my thinkingness or my assertiveness, but I have found and this is the question for everyone I have found that like I get into a lot of trouble with like not knowing what I was supposed to be doing or what I should have said or what I should have said, but also I have like righteous anger against when people expect me to do something and I didn't and they like judge me for it. I guess my question to the group is sort of like do you guys feel that you know being sort of like more direct, like that we get into trouble with these kinds of situations and like my response is to fight it or abandon it completely, I won't deal with your people or I will fight you, like I've fought the mother-in-law like straight to a standstill on like why are you judging me for this? That's not fair. But then, like you know what's the right, how have you guys dealt with?
Speaker 4:it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all that.
Speaker 4:I agree, it's so true. It's, yeah, I usually. Why did you say that? Or why didn't I what I mean? What's the big deal? I don't maneuver very well because I just want to be direct and to the point and it's like I'm supposed to observe that. You have, you were sad and you had a smile and you don't like this topic and I should just like I call it by osmosis or diffusion, your thoughts are supposed to get in my brain when, unless you tell me, I don't know what you're thinking and a lot of people just I hate that word assume. Why are you assuming? And you wouldn't need to tell me you have a responsibility too, so I, so I second that and it's I many times do not be well in certain situations because I didn't observe all the little things. It's like I have time to do that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm also curious from your perspective, because they say that threes are you know like, can be good at reading emotions and threes can be like chameleon, like. So I'm especially interested in your take on that yeah, I'm like now I see it all.
Speaker 2:I see it all. So we actually. So I'm a part of a um Myers-Briggs cognitive functions group and I have savior fe that's my lead function. So I extroverted feeling, so I pick up on all the things. In fact, I know more about how people are feeling, how with their body language, their facial expressions, than I know about myself, and so this word actually came up in our group. So my group is a whole bunch of savior extroverted feeling people and they brought it up. So let me read real quickly.
Speaker 2:It refers to the subtle art of understanding and responding to the feelings, thoughts and dynamics of others. It's about being perceptive, reading social cues and adapting your behavior accordingly to maintain harmony and avoid conflict. So I think that's what you're referring to, elise, about the three, that we are chameleons. We watch others to see how they're reacting to us and then we adapt accordingly because we don't want, we are so concerned about how other people see us. So we're more we in survival. We have to watch people. I don't know how not to. I can walk into a room and I immediately know the emotional status of what's going on. I can see who's uncomfortable versus who's comfortable, versus like I can hear tone, facial expression, I can tell something's going on with somebody without them even saying a word, just by their body language. So it's actually maddening for me because I can't not see it and I can't not adapt accordingly. Um, but it's out of survival, because, as my type, I have to be seen in a good light. So I don't want to disrupt or, you know, cause so many issues that people think of me negatively. So, yes, I can be assertive, yes, I can tell you like it is, but I do tailor it to the environment, to the people, to the situation. Like I, I feel I'm like, okay, in this situation I'm going to keep my mouth shut because you know it's going to cause issues, versus I can say what I need to say and so forth and so on.
Speaker 2:And then, obviously, being in, you know, if I'm in the position of being teacher or I'm running the meeting or whatever, then I have that authoritative and I can say whatever I want to At least I feel like I can do that. But if I'm just a participant, if I'm just not leading or whatever, sometimes I will hold things back, especially if there are people that are new oh my gosh, if I haven't met you and I just met you, I will be on my P's and Q's because I don't know how you will be able to tolerate my intensity. So I kind of feel people out before a lot of the intensity and loudness and things come out. But yeah, again, I think it's, it's the centers of intelligence here, because even listening to Kathleen talk about it, it was all action stuff.
Speaker 2:So I talked about the emotions, caleb talked about the intellectual aspect of it and Kathleen was, like you know, going into action don't do this, don't do that, I do this, I do that. Like it was just fascinating to see the differences and then, like Caleb bringing up the situation, how that's all I see. I see between the lines so much. So sometimes I wish I did Um, but that's part of of my survival is a three is to um, be validated and affirmed and recognized and seen as a particular way to get my value and worth. You know, if I don't care, if I don't care about your opinion or my reputation or whatever is not on the line, then oh yeah, I'm a little more assertive and I don't care. But um, if I do care, then I will definitely filter myself um and be on my best behavior, so I know.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I read body language, tones, look at faces and I'll use my five senses to determine are you trustworthy, can I trust you? And so I do a little assessment, but you're not using your senses to do that, kathleen, you're not, you're not using your senses to intake.
Speaker 1:does this person like me? How does this person see me? You are taking in the information to say can I trust you, right? So Amanda is saying she's taking in the information to say how are they seeing me? Am I being perceived how I want to? And you, kathleen, are saying can I trust this person, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, it's fascinating, it's, it's. We're taking it in, for whatever, our core fear is to protect ourselves from it so then, how would that be for you, caleb?
Speaker 4:he's like I don't care rocking his boat so that destroys his happiness. I think that's what right?
Speaker 3:yeah what ask me like in question format, if you can yes, so.
Speaker 1:So if we're talking about, I don't even need to ask that question. I think I just want to circle back to the original thing that you asked so like do you, caleb? Do you you relate to either how Amanda reads the room or how Kathleen reads the room, or is it totally different for you?
Speaker 3:I find I think it's interesting that Amanda, it's almost existential for her, like she needs it. The person who is strong in this word, nunchi, is also capable of maybe judging ones who are not. And so I, my initial gut reaction to like there's a code and a way, is I want to kill it because it's trying to kill me. Um, because I will be at the bottom of this thing because I, I cannot. It's not rational in the sense of like I can cogitate my way through it, um, so I suppose, like my inability or like can I read a little? Probably like until like, when a room is like not okay, but like um, I don't have preemptive, don't say that word because you will piss someone off. I don't have that.
Speaker 3:I'm pretty sure some of you guys have the ability to know these words won't work. This tone will not work. I'm like I cannot control tone. Caleb will talk how caleb talks. It just comes out like how it is. I cannot choose a different word. The one of the most common things my wife says to me is like you could have said it nicer, like how I cannot think of a nicer way to say.
Speaker 3:This is salty, sorry, I just can't it's salty like, at a certain point I'm allowed to say facts and I'm not going to know. But so I would say, like, in reaction to Lace, it's like I I feel stuck by this notion and I'm bad at it and I, you know, if I could take a masterclass and just take it in, I would, but I I'm I would not say I'm a good practitioner of it. Like, I lead worship from time to time and I can read a room. On that level I'm really good with like music and taking you into moments and, like you know, helping you engage with god. You know that's part of the conversation. But like um man, when it has to do with like the subtleties of like what, what is ever, it's almost like those of you who can do this can tell everyone's agenda and then you can like and then it's all about like, okay, what do you bring to that?
Speaker 2:do you bring?
Speaker 3:an eightness to other people's agenda? Do you bring a threeness to other people's agenda? The nine do you bring a peacemakerness to a hundred jennas in the same room trying to kill each other? I'm like all y'all's agenda, whatever. Like who wants to talk to me with words? Let's do that, you know.
Speaker 2:So I don't know, that's probably me so you think of, um, the issue that they have with threes of being, um, inauthentic, right, the argument is that we're not authentic because we can adapt to the different situations and who we're with, and it's not out of being purposely deceptive, it's purely out of my own survival. So I've learned with these people I can talk this way, behave this way when I can't with these people and I have to wear kid gloves with this person because they're really sensitive, and I can just take everything off with this person like. I have all that within me, I just know like, and so it's interesting and I think that where, where I was talking about the emotions being so intense and overwhelming, that's probably why they are for me, versus how you know they're experiencing it, um, because there's value and meaning for it. That's different for me than it would be for for the other types. So that's a great question, caleb, because I think it totally showed the distinctions between the centers. Again, we are in that same stance, but and we struggle with emotions, but differently, and we probably have to learn how to handle them differently as well.
Speaker 2:My best friend is a seven and I introduced the Enneagram to her. She's had a lot of trauma and it's been life-saving for her and she's really challenged herself to sit in the emotions and not distract herself from it. And she said that she's, um, she started recording herself. So when she was having those really hard emotional and wanted to reach for whatever to distract her the good experience, the go hang out with this person, the food, the dance and play you know she's got a bazillion different things that she does to distract herself. She's chosen to go into her closet and just turn on the camera and feel the feels and talk it out and just cry the cries. And she said that just feels so foreign for her, um, but that's how she's trying to like not distract herself and actually like go there. Anyways, it's just interesting to hear your perspective versus what I know her journey has been and, you know, trying to understand emotions and what to do with them and whatnot.
Speaker 2:That's what's so cool, is that, even though Caleb's seven and my best friend's seven, there's just different flavors to it and our experiences and instincts and all that.
Speaker 4:So anyways, yeah, this is to share, like you'll behave a certain way with this person, it's like I don't care that, I just won't do anything with that. I just don't have time for that. You know, and take me as I am, as that's how I say it like why do I have to change behavior just because you don't like direct people? That's not very nice. I go, but it's true, like truth, I like truth. You know what are you doing?
Speaker 2:for, yeah, and I wish, I wish, I want. My journey has been trying to get to that point, trying to be genuinely authentic with every group that I interact with. Now, I know that's not. We all kind of adapt accordingly, right? Um, but I didn't realize that about myself because it is so instinctual, it's like breathing. Um, I heard and I forget his name, but he said threes watch people watching them and I was like, oh my gosh, I do that and now I that's.
Speaker 2:All I see is if I'm talking to somebody, especially someone that's new, I will be talking. But it's like an outer body experience where I'm, I'm doing my thing and I'm watching their facial expression and their body language to see how they're receiving my energy. To see how they're receiving my energy and I can tell, okay, they're not so sure about this intensity that's coming. I got to reel it back a little bit or they're a little bored, interested, and so I'll kind of put on the charm and get them engaged and going. But it is the most bizarre experience. Once I realized that's what I was doing, but I had no clue that I did because it is purely instinctual, but I watch people watching me so I know how to adapt. I did it as a teacher. I would watch the whole classroom and I could tell what the students were feeling, thinking and I would just adapt accordingly so what an art to have.
Speaker 4:It is interesting. Here we are in the three, the three aggressive numbers, but we each bring a different flair to it, but we're in many ways very similar. So, yeah, it's like. This is like I call those light bulb moments. It's like, oh, my gosh, wow. But yet I can understand your perspective. I understand, caleb, like I've never connected this well. It's like, wow, we understand each other, but it's just slightly different. It is just like wow.
Speaker 1:Kathleen, on a scale of one to ten, how much do you care what other people think of you?
Speaker 4:uh, probably three, four. I want to be respected. So you know, if you respect me, let me share my two cents. I'll listen to you. So probably three, you know. But if you disrespect me, you know, it's like you just met me. Why are you assuming this about me? So it's probably around there and if you, if I meet you and you don't like me, I move on. I know I won't be having an encounter very much with you. You know, like, whatever I just like you can just be, I'll be, you move through life, I'll move through life. So that's probably where I'm at.
Speaker 4:I mean, I don't work, so it's a lot different. But when I worked there were certain people you just had to move through the motions and try to get through the day, you know. But I don't like being around people who complain, complain, complain. I used to say I'm gonna have the thumper rule. You don't have nothing say, don't say nothing at all. Like, why make it so grumpy and make everybody be? You know we all have challenges, but so that's. I know that I aggressive types, will reframe it to make it more positive or it's not so bad, and so I do that. I find I do that a lot like my husband. Oh, this is the worst thing. I'm like dear, why. You know what did you learn? You know, try to get him to see what did you learn. So now you learn, remember that and don't repeat it. So you still had a, you still had a positive experience. So, but as for what people think, you know I know my immediate family loves me, but then out there it's probably three or four.
Speaker 1:You just named another thing, that it is inefficient. Which is complaining, true?
Speaker 2:absolutely it's true.
Speaker 4:What good does it do? It doesn't do anything. Then you just focus on negative. Oh my gosh. I think my sister's a six and I have to only talk to her once a month because she absolutely drives me nuts. And then she'll call and she wants sympathy. I don't have sympathy for you when all you do is complain, complain, complain, oh my gosh. Oh, you're right.
Speaker 2:The victim mentality, victim martyrdom. I am not here for that and that's why I left counseling. Let's just be honest. I was like I'm not here for you to be a victim and be a martyr and not do something about it. Like I, you can vent, you can I will be here to sit in the hard with you if you want to do something about it. But if all you want to do is sit in it and just feel sorry for yourself and whine and complain, I'm out. So that's why I found that teaching and coaching was a better fit for me, because I can challenge you, I can push you. Let's set goals, let's get better, you know. So as long as you want my help to get better, I am here for it, but I'm not here for you to be a martyr. No, that triggers me like and I can't even tolerate it in movies and TV shows, you guys Like I lose my mind. I'm like here we go, another martyr story.
Speaker 4:Let's feel sorry for ourselves. I have no compassion for people like that. Oh my gosh, no compassion.
Speaker 2:You dug your grave, now you gotta lie in it yes, yes, or somebody will complain and I'm like, what would you expect? Yeah, you did that. You said that. Natural consequences, yeah, amen totally agree, caleb.
Speaker 1:I think you even mentioned earlier in this talk that you don't have any patience at work for when people are complete or like the negativity.
Speaker 3:Like you don't have patience for the negativity at work yeah, like I expect that if you had an issue with something, you would have already gotten going on it and the only reason you're talking to me is because you need resources to finish it. But it's like okay, cool, like I will help you. Um, I mean, it is sometimes fun to complain about how awful management is, because they're really awful people a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:Inefficiency, yeah competency.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all that um, I was actually thinking about something while they were talking um this idea of like do I? When you ask them like, do I care about what other people think I? I think like, on some level I want to be likable in the sense that I want to generally like other people. But I've also been on the receiving end of unfair judgment and unfair, false accusation and unfair assumptions about me. So in those cases, like in the past, like younger me might've been like, oh, I'm like a super church servant, so like I'll take the heart when people like have issues with how I'm not munchy enough or whatever the heck the word is. But like I'm not. Like you know, if you're a female in your church, like if you're not gentle, quiet, spirit enough like you know, then you're, you know like, ah, you know, like you're out of the church, you know is sort of like the idea of like.
Speaker 3:Okay, it's possible for people to have a whole bunch of weird opinions about me. That are going to be. They belong to them. They can have their assumptions, but they own that. I am not responsible to change their assumptions about me because they had this negative emotion about me, they made negative assumptions. They think I'm a this, that or whatever, and they might think it's on me to prove to them that I'm worthy of respect or goodness or whatever the heck they care about. But I'm like there's just not enough time and like mental space and health and energy to be wasted on people who they will jump to conclusions on you and um. On some level, I think it would be cool to have um amanda's ability to like read all that and then, on some level, maybe I think that would be exhausting, because then I would want to fight everybody and be like you're thinking this about me right now. Well, you know what f you, you're this, this, this, and then we'll start throwing the k darts, dart, dart, dart, dart, dart. You know like I'd be so tempted if you give me a room of 10 people that were thinking wrong things about me. Oh, it's on.
Speaker 3:I guess like, do I need someone to like me? I would like to be liked, but not to the point where I will change myself so that you will like me. Um, I feel like I'm a generally good, non-evil person. Um, I'm hoping that bringing myself to you that's enough and we can have a fair. I'm not going to make assumptions about you. Hopefully you're not making assumptions about me. Can we just live more in the literal? But I don't know, maybe they could also be like why?
Speaker 3:Um, because some people are more heart right, like I've found that, like with twos, um, they're really loving at me and then I found that I'm not loving enough at them back, even though I try really hard but, like you know, I'll forget things like birthdays and, like you know, like what they like, and all of a sudden they take that person. I'm like no, no, no, I don't want to do with intuition or anything personal Like that were like intuition or like me failing to get the right thing, and so now you're going to have a reaction. I'm like, oh my God, I want to run away. I like fours, in the sense that the four has you know, they're like I'm part of their depression, like, oh my god, no, um, anyway, yeah, so that's the most thing about.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting because I was thinking it sounds like you just want people to know, not have a misjudgment about you. Whatever that is, this is the truth of who caleb is. Take me, leave me, but don't have a wrong judgment of who I am. Is that what you're saying? Okay, so for me it is. I want you to like me, right. Like my reputation means a family friend. It can look a little differently. So, on that scale of one to 10, on a bad day, 10. Working towards the eight and the seven on that scale is where I get my value, though. So that's everything is to have a good reputation, to be liked. I tell people all the time I don't care, if you love me, I really don't Abandon me, whatever it doesn't cool, I'll do my own thing, but I want people to like huge difference for me. So I want and this has a lot to do with my sexual three right so I want to leave an impression on someone or in the room that I'm just this magnetic, charming, likable person and that I want that to be what I leave. And if you don't like me, for whatever reason, it just absolutely it's.
Speaker 2:It's painful because I don't understand why you won't like me. What is it about me? You know that you what? What is it? It's like this incessant need to like figure out what it is. What did I say? What did I do? Um, what's wrong with me? You know, if there's a lot of people I have this like choose me, why won't you choose me? What's wrong with me that you won't choose me? So it's almost like this I need to know what it is so I can fix it Right. I'm driven and determined to fix it, so I need to know.
Speaker 3:I wonder if that's like a, if that's a three thing or if that's like a heart thing or so, okay, on social you'll often be scrolling and there'll be like beautiful, like lady moms, single, but they've been abused, like they're in these bad relationships and they're, like you know, like you know I just wanted to, like you know, be likable, and like I wanted to be loved and like I did all these things for abusive this relationship and and they're always with, like you know, drug addict or it's always a mess, like they're in these abusive relationships.
Speaker 3:These are like really attractive and likable people and people always ask, like why are these attractive, likable people attaching themselves to these like abusive people? And I'm like whoa and like it manages describing it's possible for her to be wanting to be like well by everyone, good person or not. And I was like, oh my God, you know, but like, but like I don't know, I don't understand. Like, how does that happen? Happen, at least. Now there's a, okay, there's a. I can see that there's a drive, but I don't know whether you know where does it come from?
Speaker 2:yeah, so well. And I and that's why I say I think it's mostly my, my sexual three because I have to have value and worth and being significant by being the best. I want to be the favorite friend, the best friend, the best wife, the best coworker, the best employee, the best person on a podcast. You know, like I want to be the favorite and if I'm not the chosen favorite then something is wrong with me. That is my achievement and recognition. I have to be the prettiest, I have to be the most stylish. Put together, I have to be, you know, like that's where I get my driven achievement orientation towards. So it's mostly about how I can develop my personality and communication and physical presence to be recognized and achieved for that. So I would rather hear someone say oh, you're so stylish, you're so beautiful.
Speaker 2:That is like peacocking, like I literally have a peacock tattooed but with the feathers down, because I'm learning in my recovery to not have the feathers out all the time. I don't get my value from having pretty feathers. I'm learning that I am significant and valued as just a creation of God. That's it and that's really hard for me to wrap my head around. Really hard to wrap my head around and in my mind I'm like, no, I'm only significant and valuable and worthwhile as long as I'm leaving some kind of magnetic, like influential, impact on people. So that's, that's where my my driven is. And I think when you're talking about, you know, girls that seem to have the personality, the looks, the skills, all that stuff in there with these people is because they have no value and worth within themselves, so they're stuck with people that will just, I'll take whoever is going to take me. But anyways, we're going on lots of tangents and find my values and what I do.
Speaker 4:You know, yeah, it's your doers, so I will do lots of things for you. When I visit my oldest, I clean her house, I do her housework and I do this. I visit my other one, I do, do, do, and occasionally I'll do things for my son, and that's what I enjoy doing and what I I get so much joy out of it. However, I can help you, do something for you, and let me do this, let me. I don't cook that much, but I can clean, clean your house. I can do laundry. I love doing that, and you like getting the words in here. I want to do something. I mean, it really is a strong drug. So it's like, whoa, this. I'm like seeing you, but I understand you. Yet I'm like, oh my gosh, I do Like it is true, where I get my work. It's like, wow, this that's another one of those revelations of the difference between a three, seven and eight. This has like been a revelation type discussion.
Speaker 3:So thank you, elise this is probably like two hours now no, this is so good.
Speaker 1:I'm like I'm splitting this into two episodes, I so she's over there, she's not even listening to us.
Speaker 4:She's like planning out how she can the one is kicked in and like how?
Speaker 2:can I make this.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so good. I was. I was trying to think when both of you guys were talking about the Well, mostly when you were talking, amanda, about paying attention to Do people like me oh, there's something wrong with me. And then now, kathleen, you're talking about the doing, finding your identity in what you do for people. Okay, so, kathleen, you and I are both in the body center and I was trying to think, like, how do I react when I can sense that somebody doesn't, somebody isn't happy with me, or if I sense somebody doesn't like me or something I did? And I think my first thought is, oh, I did something wrong.
Speaker 1:But I don't usually tend to think, oh, there's something wrong with me. So there's a distinction between, like the, the heart triad, the twos, threes and fours, who are very sensitive to their identity and image is very important. And for the twos, threes and the fours, for all of them they're sensitive to how are people seeing me? And they would ask those questions is there something wrong with me? And I'm just like I really can't relate to that. But I do relate very much to oh, did I do something wrong? Did I mess up? Did I make a mistake? And and the need to, not not as much as a need to like fix something about myself, but a need to like do something to somehow recompense or pick up for for the wrong.
Speaker 2:So it's more like action focused to me yeah, yeah, where does the head, head, part of that show up?
Speaker 3:well hearing kathleen describe she's like she wants to get to the doing and amanda's reacting according to how people feel about her. Like I was just thinking like when do I first I started with? Like why do I hate my old work, like management, so badly? And it's because they're stupid. Like they make dumb decisions. They let go of everyone who brought the revenue.
Speaker 3:Like let go into layoff, like within the last year, like they're the only employees that brought in 10 to 1 on their salaries. And guess who is their manager myself. So, like, I completely hate those people because they've ruined people's lives based off of they ran themselves out of money chasing pipe dreams. Now they have to let go of the people that actually do good work so they can go do another round of chasing pipe dream of more agency, bad work, right. So I realized, oh, what's important to me is like I'm a, I'm like a thinky doer. Um, a lot of people at work think like. They both know I'm analytical and they also not want to be moving on that analytical stuff as I go. Um, I have such complete like.
Speaker 3:I just do not respect when leadership is like one, their logic doesn't make sense. It'd be one thing if their logic made sense and then they just had someone else do it. Okay, fine, you're lazy, or you're a good visionary, whatever. But if you're like your logic is wrong and you're harming people, like a good visionary, whatever. But if you're like your logic is wrong and you're harming people, like you are the worst human. Like you, sociopathic beast, I hate you, right, um, and I'm like okay, well, what? What do I like? And I realized, oh, I like it when I get to talk with my friends here and, like, explore why something's happening or how can I get to a better result for me and a better result for you. So I do care about the result and getting to a result, but, yeah, like I like it when. Yeah, I like it when people can explore with me on something like we achieve. We have together achieved greater knowledge of ourselves on this call alone. Yeah, so it is, you're seeing the logical.
Speaker 2:Okay, planning it out, it makes more sense to do it, this, this, that All intellectual understanding of what needs to be done versus the action. Yeah, it is, it's interesting to see.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate you guys giving so much time. I know this was longer than we all expected, but I thought it was so awesome. Like I love talking to you guys, I love hearing what you had to say, I love the aha moments wow, so good. Like I'm excited to go through and find the good clips and pull out the highlights. But we're gonna um end with this question and you each are gonna get like max three sentences to answer.
Speaker 2:Okay so yeah, that's a challenge for um us talkers.
Speaker 1:So the last question is how can people show love to your type, or how do you want people to love you? Well, as a three, as a seven, as an eight, and I'll give you a minute to think you probably don't need that long. Seven as an eight, and I'll give you a minute to think you probably don't need that long. You assertive types, but whoever is ready can start or we'll.
Speaker 2:We'll come to an answer as we're processing it out loud exactly, but you only get three sentences, so good luck so I know there's pressure because we can't talk until we have our three sentences. It's like a big challenge the first thing that comes to my mind is give me the benefit of the doubt. Huh like, believe the best and what I'm saying and what I'm doing. I could expand on that, but that's awesome.
Speaker 3:Thanks for that that goes to your like, you kind of like your fear not being liked yeah, advice for those of us who live with threes.
Speaker 3:Uh, one of my three would be don't attack me wrongfully. I think a second one would be bring me comfort, in the sense that it's like, uh, the man might actually get this because she's like physically aware of, like physics, matters on humans. But, like, what brings me comfort is like a pleasant disposition. What brings me comfort is care and warmth, and I like when people have a pleasant look about them. When people have a pleasant look about them and it's somehow the pleasant look about them can communicate love and you're safe, and also it's just pleasing to the eye comfort.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that, kathleen. Do you have any yet?
Speaker 4:yeah, accept me as I am. If you ask my question, I'm going to tell you the truth. Don't need to add anything, take away anything misinterpreted and, um, I care deeply about any. Please know I care deeply about you. You know care more deeply, I think, than people realize. Many people, most people, will misjudge and hate. They think, oh, we're so tough, but really we had as a two, three-year-old, we had to grow up and become an adult and we didn't get to be a child in childhood. So that's the biggest thing about age. Many people think, oh, you're so tough, but we had a very difficult childhood. We had to grow up, become an adult and many people don't realize that.
Speaker 1:That's very well said.
Speaker 3:I'll agree with Amanda's's like the idea of giving me the benefit of the doubt, or just like, like it's like be willing to naturally think goodness of me. I could go a long way with that, because I'm not evil, I don't think in evil terms. So like why would you be willing to read my actions, words, non-actions, non-words and if you aren't sure, ask questions, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Ask caleb. So are you feeling okay, don't just assume he's whatever. Or if you're in a bad mood, why do you think your spouse is gonna be about? You know, I mean ask questions, hey, how's it going? How was your day? You know I'm struggling, I'm just out of sorts.
Speaker 2:I think the theme here is because we're the assertives and it's misinterpreted that we're kind of cold-hearted about our communication and how we feel about other people. We're three's like bulldozing over you, um, but we're just as sensitive in our different ways and we're doing it for you. I know Kathleen mentioned it's like I'm doing stuff for you. You know, if I'm telling, speaking truth, or pushing you, challenging you, oh my gosh, I push and challenge people in my life because I care about them. If I don't push you, challenging you, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I push and challenge people in my life because I care about them. If I don't push you, if I don't challenge you, then I don't, I don't care about you. So I only have that mentality for people that I care about. But it's misconstrued and I understand why. I totally understand why. But that's why I say it's like give us the benefit of the doubt, don't assume that we have any malintent, that we're trying to be cold hearted or mean or you know any of those things, because that's usually not the case, 99% not the case.
Speaker 3:So, lisa, I think you should ask us to answer what do we want to gift the world? I would answer with something like I want to bring you comfort and calm and mindful centeredness. Like I want you to be like fully you that's what I want to bring. Like I can teach you things, I can make you a better this, but like I just want you to be like happy and content which is funny, because when you assume all the bad things about me, it makes no sense in the back that I just want you to be happy and content, you know it's interesting because I would say it's our core fear.
Speaker 2:We want that longing message for other people. I want people to feel like they have value and worth. You are seen and heard. That's what I do, for my work is because I haven't felt seen and heard based on my wounding. I want to make sure that you are seen and heard, so it's interesting. So, kathleen, what do you think yours? What is in line with yours?
Speaker 4:yes, because I want people to tell the truth, answer what is really going on inside. You know that was a mean thing to say. That hurt. I'm feeling out of sorts. I want you to tell me the truth. You don't need out anything else. Just tell me the truth. Sure, ask a question, don't assume. Just ask me a question, I'll answer you. You can say whatever. You know most people I'm like I tell my husband, dearie, you can say anything to a Nate, doesn't bother us, you can ask me any question. That's a good question I think about. But you can say anything, and so it is about. But you can say anything, and so it is true, you can say anything. So the openness you know but yeah, give us the benefit of the doubt is a big one so, like you, want to give people the freedom to speak, the truth is that what it is, or is it like your gift to people is?
Speaker 4:you are truthful yeah, if you, I'm here, you can ask me and I want to teach you because I I tend to think the best in people. So I'm trying to teach my husband. Conflict is good because avoiding it causes all this problem. And if you deal with we have a difference of opinion, you share yours, I share mine. We exchange, we resolve it. It gets up. It's like a little pebble in the road. Then you get to drive your car on, but I think I, you know, you can come ask me whatever, and then we discuss our differences and I talk about make a decision. I said then I'm like the GPS, I'll recalculate and I'll go different because I didn't work out. I say recalculating, so I'm going to recalculate, I'm going to go a little different, didn't work out. He's too afraid to make a decision because I'd be the wrong one. So I've been trying to teach them the freedom to be yourself. You don't have to put on anything. You get to share, you get to be who you are.
Speaker 1:And I accept you, you'll defend them and protect them in that yeah you can be who you are.
Speaker 3:That's cool.
Speaker 1:I like that we're gonna end it here. We should do this again in a couple months. This is so good. You can have another three hour conversation. I'm so excited for this series on stances and, just like I, I have found it so helpful to understand the other stances, like relationally. I think that might be the number one thing for me to to help with my relationships is understand the differences. Yeah, so, thank you guys so much for this. I just want to say thanks, amanda, kathleen and Caleb, for sharing with us, and we will talk to you guys soon. This episode was recorded using equipment provided to the public by the LaPorte County Public Library System. If you liked this episode, let me know. I'd love to hear from you, tell me what other topics you'd love to hear covered on this podcast and, as always, you can find more content on my Instagram at Towards Eden Enneagram, as well as on Facebook Towards Eden Enneagram and my website, towardsedenenneagramcom.