Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
The Enneagram is an amazing tool to help us have way better relationships - and grow emotionally + spiritually.
On this podcast you'll hear stories of people using the Enneagram personality tool
to understand themselves and the people in their worlds.
& I (Elyse) will teach you how to use the Enneagram system so that you feel empowered to use this tool in your own life.
Let's get curious about each others' stories and grow together 🌿
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#15 - The Withdrawn Stance with Jessica Vangsnes (4), Tammy Leininger (5), and Katie Johnson (9)
Listen in on this conversation about the Assertive Stance. It's full of wisdom and insights from Jessica (4), Tammy (5), and Katie (9).
The Enneagram Withdrawn Types (4, 5, and 9) tend to move inward to process their thoughts and emotions before engaging with the world. They often seek space to recharge, reflect deeply, or preserve their inner peace, sometimes appearing distant or detached to others. Their orientation to time is the past.
Jessica, Tammy, and Katie share all about what it's like to be in the Withdrawn Stance.
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Jessica Vangsnes (4) is a certified Trauma-informed Resilience and Relationships Coach with over 17 years of marriage to Travis Vangsnes. Mom of 5, her journey through parenting and the challenges of adoption led her to exploring trauma, personality theories and mindful soul care practices, becoming a certified Enneagram and Marriage coach in 2022. Her calling is to build trust and help clients dismantle unhealthy patterns while fostering hope and healing through guided coaching practices.
She is also a host on the Podcast Cultivate the Ordinary with her husband Travis. https://cultivate-the-ordinary.captivate.fm/listen
Tammy (5) loves helping women who have given so much to others learn to reconnect with their true self, live more assured of their purpose, and unbind from the patterns that have held them back from their emotional and spiritual growth.With a background as a helper in the mental health field for over 15 years, she has experienced what it feels like to burn out when the patterns of the past no longer work. These tools have been transformational for me and Tammy loves to guide women in making changes to experience more growth, confidence, and peace.
Website: www.unboundcoaching.com
Instagram: @unbound.cc
Substack: unboundliving.substack.com
Katie Johnson (9) is a 937 tritype and an ENFJ. She has been married to her college sweetheart for 18 years and they have 4 daughters. Now with all 4 in school, she has been following her passion of marriage and enneagram and got certified through Christa Hardin's Enneagram + Marriage program. "Even if it only changes my own marriage, that is one healthy marriage to start to change the world."
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For resource recommendations, click here.
The Road Back to You by Ian Cron- start here to find your type
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Welcome to Towards Eden, an Enneagram podcast. This episode is part of a series on the stances. The stances describe how Enneagram types move through the world to get what they need. If you want a refresher on what the stances are, go back a couple episodes. And if you go to the previous episode before this, there's a conversation with the assertive stance, that's threes, sevens and eights.
Speaker 1:But today we're talking with three people in the withdrawn stance, so withdrawn numbers are fours, fives and nines. We have Jessica, a type four, tammy a type five and Katie a type nine. The withdrawing numbers move away from people to get what they need or to cope with stress. There's a lot of wisdom in this conversation. I hope you guys like learning more about fours, fives and nines. So I'm really excited to have Jess, katie and Tammy with me today. I know all of them from different Enneagram coaches groups. So again, it's been really cool to connect with other people who love Enneagram as much as I do, and we're just going to get right into it with introductions. So let's go ahead and start with.
Speaker 2:Jessica yeah, I'm Jess. I live in South Carolina and I am five kids and two adopted, and I've been married for 17 years and just love. I love Enneagram. I love how it brings self-awareness and the ability to observe yourself a little bit at a distance, and so it's been a great tool for me in the work that I do.
Speaker 3:Let's go to Tammy now. Well, I'm Tammy and I live in Middle Tennessee. I'm a wife and a mom and I'm also an Enneagram coach and I also work as a mental health therapist, and the Enneagram has just been a really great tool for helping me understand a little bit of why we get so stuck in the things that we thought were going to bring us the freedom that we wanted.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's a good word. Thank you, tammy Katie.
Speaker 4:Hi, I'm Katie. I live in Florida and I've been married for almost 18 years and I have four daughters, and now that they're all in school, I'm learning more about the Enneagram, and I, as well, love the Enneagram and how much of a tool it's been. I'm hoping to start a class in my church with it.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That sounds like a great idea. So today we are talking about the withdrawn stance. Yeah, so today we are talking about the withdrawn stance and if you want more context on the stances, go back a couple episodes, and I did a general overview of all the stances. But essentially we're looking at how numbers move in the world to get what they need or what they want, and that has to do with how we move in relation to other people. So we have the dependent stance, that's moving towards other people and very aware of the rules and expectations around them. We have the assertive stance that moves against other people and demands what they want from the world. And then we have the withdrawn stance, and that's what we're focusing on today, and this is numbers who move away from people to get what they want and need.
Speaker 1:And before we talk specifically about the stances, we love talking about the Enneagram. I love hearing about your Enneagram journeys. Let's go around again and tell me how did you figure out your number and did you have any mistypings? Was it easy to identify your number? How long did it take? All the good stuff. So we'll start with you again, jess.
Speaker 2:I love telling how I came to the Enneagram. I was in a very stressful season of my family we had just adopted two boys and were helping to care for my husband's father who had dementia and so it was just this kind of time of stress and I was seeking, trying to figure out some things that might help bring clarity to why my husband and I were having so many conflicts and so many problems. And it just it was just trying to understand. And at that same time his work was going through Ian Cron's the Road Back to you, and so I just poured over it. I knew immediately I was a four. There was really no question about it.
Speaker 2:Like I've never at times I've wondered am I no question about it? Like I've never at times I've wondered am I possibly a three or um, you know I have a lot of nine in me. You know nine patterns and things, but definitely the core motivations, core fears, the the kind of qualities of the four. That is totally me and has been me since I was very young. It was a beautiful tool for that time and continued to just every layer, peeling it back and understanding more and use it in a lot of different ways, from family to friendships at my church in coaching, and it's just just been really, really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. I appreciate how you draw attention to all the different uses that there are. Right, and this is a tool. We'll say that over and over again Enneagram is a tool. It's not an end-all, be-all, but it can be so helpful for so many areas of life. Okay, so the road back to you was part of your story. Needing some extra tools and resources and a hard family time was part of your story. Do you remember one or two things about Enneagram 4 from reading that first book that you were like, oh yeah, that's definitely me. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the desire for authenticity and to be known and the pain of feeling misunderstood, those were all things that resonated. I'm an artist and I love to paint and be creative in many different forms. I like to write poetry and just be unique. So that whole idea of wanting to kind of get a form of attention for being unique and being different, you know, and then at the same time feeling very different than everybody else and kind of feeling a little bit like an outsider or an outcast or something, all that just it was like somebody was reading my diary or just in my head when I was reading about my, about type four for the first time.
Speaker 1:That's beautifully said. Thank you, ok, tammy, tell us about your Enneagram journey.
Speaker 3:So I heard about it on a podcast, like somebody was just mentioning it in passing, and so it sounded interesting. So I Googled it didn't know how to spell it, it's a weird word and then I took some kind of a test. I don't remember which test it was, but it gave me like a few different options for my number and I remember that four and seven were two of the numbers and I was like I'm a seven, I second, I love this, like this is my fun side, like I'm all in for this, and kind of claimed that, um, but then I was reading the wisdom of the Enneagram and I got to the part about the Enneagram five and I was like oh no, no, no, this is like this, is it? So I did a little bit more reading about that and, yeah, it's been really helpful for me, just building compassion for some of those ways of reacting to things that weren't so, weren't so nice, they weren't the ones that I wanted to be showing the world and then learning to let go of those that.
Speaker 1:Those weren't the things that I needed for safety and security, you know and you were talking about not just compassion on other people, but learning to have compassion for yourself, right? Yeah, yeah are there a couple things you remember from reading that book?
Speaker 3:the wisdom of the enneagram that really clicked that you were five the part about if I can just know enough, if I can just understand things, I'm going to be okay, because so much, um boy. I mean, that was about 10 years ago. I feel like the older I get, the less I understand. Um, but things were so un-understandable, un-understandable, but I, I just kept trying to understand them more, like if I could have enough information then then I could be okay. But that wasn't, that wasn't bringing any peace.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that. So, katie, tell us about your Enneagram journey.
Speaker 4:Well, I heard about it. I was in my Bible study and the women were all talking and one of the women's husband's company brought in a coach, and so she's like, my husband made me take this test. This is amazing, you need to take this, and I'm always interested in psychology. And so I paid a hundred dollars for a test and I said I was a two. And then, but before that, when I read all of the descriptions, I went every time I read a different one. I'm like that's me, and then the next one no, no, that's me.
Speaker 4:And then the next no, so that wasn't helpful. So that's why I was like I really need to pay a hundred dollars for a test, so then I can figure it out. So then I was a two for that. But then I had we started to dig deep as a friend group and read all the books and listen to all the podcasts and, um, then people started telling me I think you're a one. So I'm like, well, maybe I'm a one, Uh, but what really resonated with me in the nine was, um, the merging and how I could be in a room with someone and completely merge with them and then step away and then merge with someone completely different. And I understand what they're saying, but it doesn't mean I agree with them. And I was like, yes, exactly, that's exactly what I'm trying to say my entire life. I don't agree with you, but I understand you. And it was so eye-opening to me.
Speaker 1:Yes, that is a great nine phrase. I don't agree with you, but I do understand you and I've heard people say you know the nine in the room. Everybody has a different opinion and they all think the nine is on their side right. Because you're just so good at understanding people and seeing everyone's perspectives, and then we can see how, in the typing process, you could see all the numbers, perspectives.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:I love it. Oh, I love hearing your guys' stories. Okay, so now we are going to dive into the withdrawn stance. I'm going to read a couple paragraphs from this article from truitycom and then we're just going to have a general time for you guys to respond to anything you want to from that and then we can go more specific into specific questions. So here's what it says. Enneagram types four, five and nine fall into the withdrawn stance. They move away from others to get what they need or want and they are doing. Repressed, these types have rich inner worlds as they detach from others to find fulfillment within. In times of stress, they retreat into their minds and rely on their inner strength and knowledge to guide them to the answers and comfort they're looking for. Jessica, I want to start with you. How does that hit you, the part about moving away from people, the rich inner worlds retreating into their minds?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I probably resonate more with the ideas about my feelings, if that makes sense. So, as a four in the heart center, I retreat to get clarity on how I'm feeling. It's hard for me when I'm surrounded to to sort through my feelings, so I will go by myself and withdraw to get that clarity. And I think the rich inner world, I think that's. I love creativity and dreaming and, like you know, putting things together or thinking about systems. Like you know putting things together or thinking about systems and writing, I will just retreat into this, like this world. So that really resonates a lot.
Speaker 1:Do you, do you? Can you kind of like keep yourself occupied in your own imagination?
Speaker 2:in your own thoughts? Absolutely yes. I have five kids, so I don't have the freedom to do that like I once did. But when given the opportunity, if I'm alone, I mean I can draw and I can write and I can dream and I can plan and I can just fill it all up so good, all right, tammy, let's go to you um anything from those couple paragraphs that stands out to you I think I mean the piece about withdrawing from others.
Speaker 3:Um, I tend like, when you talk about like the instincts, like I'm a pretty social um type five and so I'm always seeing myself in relation to people and I'm always kind of aware of where I am in in the constellation, right, but definitely from a place where I can stand on my own if I need to. So it's really really hard for me to reach out and ask for help, to admit that I need help, or I'll figure it out myself if I have to. So it's definitely been an area of growth for me is realizing that I need people and I'm better with people.
Speaker 1:How does the piece about seeking safety and security fit into that for you? Like, what is it like for you inside your mind? What happens when? Or like what are what's something that could come up that would trigger you to think, okay, I need to find safety and security and to do that, I need to withdraw.
Speaker 3:I have an example. I had a pretty significant medical event happen and I didn't tell anybody, really like I didn't even tell, didn't call my husband because I know where the hospital is, um, and the whole time I was thinking like well, isn't this a fascinating thing, look at all this stuff that's happening. And just kind of was like in the moment of well, isn't this interesting? And then later he said why didn't you let me know you were going to the hospital right away? I was like I could drive myself. I mean, you know I got it.
Speaker 1:It's such a non-drama approach. I'm just thinking if that was me I'd be like, oh little bit of potential for drama. I need to call somebody, I need to tell everybody. I'm going to the hospital, like play it up. And you were just like oh, the information, this is what's happening.
Speaker 3:How very interesting I won't feel anything about this.
Speaker 1:No emotions, let's just do this and I'll feel about it later and then, um, do you, do you go and feel about it later is is that um something that you've developed any strategies or practices for?
Speaker 3:I have to work at that, to really feel and, I think, to learn what feeling is, versus having the thoughts about the feelings. That's definitely been a journey for me. Um, I I like to hack my crying. I have certain things that I know if I watch it or I read it, it'll make me cry and I can feel all the things. Um, and just that's probably the biggest one right there that's good, thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're gonna hop over to Katie. Did you have anything that stood out from those two paragraphs to you?
Speaker 4:I guess with drawing I do it more to figure out what I think and also just to get away. Sometimes if I merge too much then I'm like, okay, what do I think? Times it's just to get a breath, I guess, away from everybody's thought process or opinions or drama.
Speaker 1:Do you get easily overwhelmed by other people's needs and other people's opinions and all those things?
Speaker 4:I get frustrated by not that I feel like I have to meet their needs, but if they get mean or mad about it, I get frustrated because they're being mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point that you bring up and I've heard that from a lot of nines that just meanness, like you don't like meanness, um, and I wonder if that has anything to do with, like your, um desire for justice, being in the justice triad, um, do you have a pretty good radar about?
Speaker 4:um, I don't know, I guess about meanness or or like, if people are being the recipient of meanness, maybe yes, I'm very aware of the room and all the people and what's happening and it as I was growing up, I thought everyone had the same radar and I was like what are these people's problem? Why did?
Speaker 2:they say that why?
Speaker 4:didn't they offer that? Why didn't they do this or that? And so, getting in the car after school, I was like, and my father would get so mad because I wouldn't say anything in the car when he picked me up and it was just processing time of okay, what happened during the day.
Speaker 1:It seems like I'm hearing the common theme from you guys about processing by yourselves. Is that pretty true globally for you three that you like to process by yourself?
Speaker 2:I think for me it's a mix of both. Like I do like to verbally process with people. I'm not somebody that will move away from relationships. Naturally I very much need interaction and conversation and a plan and checking in and just that feedback, not necessarily to know how I feel, but I think, because I I want everybody to be happy, like I want uh, everybody to be connected and all this stuff. So some of that is avoiding, um, avoiding pain and trying to not uh go to that place that I can go to so easily as a four of sadness and disappointment and feeling rejected or whatever. So I will check on things with a lot of people and verbally process it with them. But I do usually know how I feel, like I'm secure in that understanding my own perspective. But because of my own story, there's reasons why sometimes I censor that to try to figure out where I can be authentic with that and where I have to, as a self-preserving four, hold that back.
Speaker 1:Another thing that comes into this stance's conversation is orientation to time. So the dependent stance one, two and six have a present time orientation. The assertive stance three, seven and eight has a future time orientation, and this stance, the withdrawing numbers, have a past orientation to time, and I'm so curious about how that comes up for each of you guys, because I imagine it has to be different, and as a present oriented number, I I want to put myself in your shoes and understand what that's like for you guys. So is anybody just ready to start talking about that now?
Speaker 3:said when did you get so nostalgic? And I'm like, buddy, that's me, like that's who you got as a mom, because, like I'm proud of being the keeper of the stories, like I make meaning through where we've been Right, if you know, something happens with somebody from college, I've got, I've got a whole scrapbook about that year. You know, I know all these things that have happened. I'm always looking to the past to kind of figure out what's happening now. It helps me process the information that I've gained from the things in the past. But it's only recently where I really noticed that that was maybe an orientation to time thing and not a thing that everybody has.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, I think, yeah, everybody doesn't have that, because the time that I spent with the three, seven and eight, it was just like crazy forward moving energy for two and a half hours and the past orientation to time is so different. So what I heard you say, tammy, is you are looking to the past for memories and then to inform decision-making now. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Do you find it easier to be self-reflective with an easy access to thinking about the past?
Speaker 3:I think it's hard to know like compared I only have myself to compare that to yeah. But I think, yes, I can be self-reflective to a fault, where sometimes I think I would benefit from having an orientation to the future and have some of that energy to just like move forward. Doesn't matter, let's just go. Let's just go do this.
Speaker 1:Totally. What about you, Jessica?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was thinking about this, such an interesting question, the different ways that a past focus to time, of past orientation to time as a for my attentions on like what's missing here in the present.
Speaker 2:And so I naturally go back to sort of romanticize a memory of something that probably isn't even accurate, but it's like, oh that you know, I find some memory where it felt whole or or all the needs were met, or I I can bring this example into the present of like this is how I'd rather have it be, because this was so great that romanticizing. And I see, when I fear things coming up in the future, I will sometimes try to protect myself with that like past pain thing. I mean, I'm aware of these things and I'm working on them and I'm trying to use different strategies, but this is just that natural processing. I'm also can be a slower processor, like lots of pauses in between things. I'm saying because it's that looking back, you know, I compare myself sometimes to others and I'm like I am so slow at processing my words compared to fill in the blank, you know, and I mean when I'm really comfortable with the topic it's different, but um, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I relate to the slower processing with you, um, and then, yeah, I I feel that stances has been helpful for me, because I genuinely do not understand how there are some people who just process very quickly, and stances helped me have an understanding of that, of like it doesn't mean they're doing it wrong. They genuinely just got their quick in their brain and they're moving on. What about you, katie?
Speaker 4:I agree with Jessica. I'm looking back, but maybe not looking for what was missing, but the emotions of everyone who was there and so trying to fix or, I guess, make the piece happen. So if it's like, oh, let's plan Christmas or plan this, I'll go. Well, remember, this person got mad about this and this person was upset about this and we should really have it at this place. So this person has a crib and this person has a this, and so just to make sure that when we approach Christmas time, it's hopefully peaceful, christmas time it's hopefully peaceful.
Speaker 4:And I process by looking back and remembering good things and bad things not necessarily all bad, but it's a very detailed thing, I think as well and maybe that's where you understand the processing, because I have a lot of assertive types around me and I grew up with a lot of assertive types around me, and I grew up with a lot of assertive types and I always thought I was the slower one, maybe because I was the youngest in my family. But they miss so many details and so many things that me looking back, or all of us we assume that everyone else is right there with us with the details, but they're not, and so it's interesting to see. Oh, they're faster. But here's where I come in to be the detailed.
Speaker 1:For all the listeners. When Katie said other people who process fast miss out on a lot of the details, everybody was vigorously nodding to that. Everybody in the call agrees.
Speaker 2:Greece. Another interesting thing that I thought about was learn. Like how I learn. I'm recalling past almost like like videotapes or something. I'm like learning not from what's right in front of me, but I'm like past experiences, like that's how I observe myself learning now, in the present, because I'm like I either want to correct something and make it better or I want to do it the same as I did before, because that was effective or people liked it or whatever.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's really interesting. Can you say any more about that, Jess? So you're learning by looking at the past version of yourself slash looking to the past.
Speaker 1:Well, it's comparing to what's happening now, but I'm looking back at, like, the experiences I've had as a way of learning so, tammy, another thing that what I've learned about fives is that they look to the past, um, to get the data and the information about, like, what's worked, what's not worked, um, yeah, kind of gathering that data in order to move forward. And then, just about feelings, you're saying like you're looking to the past to kind of get almost, almost, get like feelings, data or like memories of what's worked, what's not worked. And then we heard the similar thing from you, katie, about your. Your motivation is to maintain connections with people and to keep the peace. And so, in order to keep the peace at this upcoming event, I need to think back to what broke the peace at the last thing, and I just think that's so fascinating and it is a gift. This is a gift that you all have, because not every person can so easily access looking backwards and reflecting and learning from the past. Anybody else have thoughts on that topic?
Speaker 3:I think sometimes it can be hard to try to hold on too much to the past for me. I want to keep all the things. I have to be really intentional about throwing away some keepsakes, because you don't have to keep everything and sometimes I miss out on really enjoying the moment that I'm in if I'm not careful. And so I have to be really intentional about no, I'm not to worry about what I'm going to do with this information in the future. I don't have to compare it to anything, I can just be present. But that takes that takes some intentional work to do that.
Speaker 2:I would agree with that. For myself, that present stance is the hardest, it's like the most repressed for me.
Speaker 4:I agree, but I had to figure that out because I thought I was present. But I'm kind of zoned out when I'm present and so I can get all the tasks on the to-do list done or all the mom things done. But sometimes I'm just a machine doing it because I'm zoned out. But sometimes I'm just a machine doing it because I'm zoned out. So I had to be like am I present?
Speaker 4:No, I'm not, I'm past. How did you suss that out, the differences between those two? Because I was told so many times that I'm a one and so every time I was like one nine, one, nine. So I was looking at all the one things.
Speaker 4:And so every time I was like one nine, one nine. So I was looking at all the one things I'm like maybe I am because I'm very good at a to-do list or getting things done, but that was really as I'm learning my three coming out as opposed to I don't really have one tendencies. That doesn't have to be perfect, I just want it done, have to be perfect, I just want it done so and and I'm I do zone out when I'm doing my list, or I do zone out when I'm momming, and it's I have to say, okay, be be here, katie, be here. Focus.
Speaker 1:I'd love to hear from any of you. How have you been able to grow in terms of having that presence in the present moment? What do you do or like? Do you have any practices or strategies, or is it just like I have to keep reminding myself over and over again?
Speaker 3:over and over again. I have to be in my body intentionally and I've been working with a spiritual director who has been amazing, mostly because when I try to tell her what I'm figuring out, she tells me to stop and slow down and just notice, like what it feels like to be grounded, like to feel the weight of my body in the chair and to feel, um, the breath, um going down into my stomach, um, being really intentional about connecting back with my body has been really helpful.
Speaker 2:I would just echo that that has been a practice, um, understanding I did a course in polyvagal theory and some tools and techniques for just regulating your nervous system and that, um, like she mentioned, grounding, uh, orienting, being able to kind of look around your environment or name things through the five senses, like what do I see, what do I smell, what do I taste, what do I hear, you know, brings you into that present moment. I do think artwork makes me feel present, nature, but yeah, the body scans and just understanding, like what, what am I physically experiencing right now? And just naming it.
Speaker 1:Do you want to add anything, Katie?
Speaker 4:Uh well, after I had my fourth girl, I was like, okay, I need to start working out. And so then I started working out and researching it. And, um, I had a friend who's a personal trainer and and they always say, uh, think about the movement you're doing. And I was like, I'm zoning out until this workout's done. Isn't that what everybody does?
Speaker 4:But they're like no, no, they think about every muscle when they work it out, and I'm like you do. That's so strange because I'm zoning out until I check this off the list that's really good I like that example.
Speaker 1:Like doesn't everybody just zone out to just make it through this darn workout?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was really resonating when you were talking earlier, katie, about the, the zoning out as your momming or doing your to-do list, things like that, because I also have this ability to check off a massive amount of things off a list and I think it's the four going to the one space just being really like principled and organized, and you know that's a healthy quality. Um, but it's not in the present moment like I'm very disassociated and it takes a lot of energy from me to do it. So by the time I'm done, I'm like I'm done like now, I'm like laid out and I have to lay on my bed for a while.
Speaker 2:Nobody talked to me.
Speaker 4:And people watching are thinking you're in the present and they're like, wow, look at them. But you're not.
Speaker 2:But it's obvious when a kid does try to one of my children tried to talk to me. Yes, I clearly my attention is not in the present moment, it's just. It's a fog. I can't hardly even hear what they're saying thank you guys for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm kind of seeing the connection between the past and withdrawing, because I'm hearing you guys say that sometimes you know, when you're not fully in the present moment, when you're kind of zoned out, disconnected, disconnected, you're kind of like starting from a place of being withdrawn, and then when people try to come in, it's like okay, well, I need to put some energy towards coming back to you before we connect and then we are together in the present moment again. So the last topic that we're going to talk about with the withdrawn stance is about doing repression. So when we look at the stances and we look at our centers okay, let me back up a minute so we have thinking, feeling and doing, and Enneagram teaches that we need all three of these to be whole, integrated people. We need to think and we need to feel and we need to do.
Speaker 1:They all matter, but for each stance, one of those is repressed. So for the dependent stance, the thinking is repressed or distorted, and then for the assertive stance, the feelings are repressed or distorted, and for you all, the doing is repressed or distorted. And there is a theme that I am hearing already from you guys, which is I can get a lot done. So when we talk about doing repressed, it's never about not doing anything. What does doing repressed mean to each of you guys? Let's start with Jessica.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this has been. I agree with you that this is a complicated idea that confuses people and it confused me and still does a little, but I can't get a lot done, so the doing repressed. If I look back to when I was like a teenager or I was like in my twenties, I was less able to complete tasks and more attention, attention deficit and disorganized and forgetful. That has changed. Having a family and being the you know, my husband is less organized, so one of us has to be, and so I've grown into a lot of those skills. I think I've become healthier, so moving towards the one. But, like we've talked about, there's this disassociation that happens and that sounds like that distortion of my doing. I don't know. Those are the first thoughts that come to mind about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I think that word distorted is helpful. It could be even sometimes more helpful than repressed, because it's like I'm not doing repressed, I'm not just doing nothing, but the doing is distorted. So okay, tammy, let's talk about how the doing distortion can come out for the Enneagram type five come out for the Enneagram type five.
Speaker 3:I think, as you're talking, I'm thinking through kind of how a day goes for me, right? Because I think I get a lot done, I'm pretty effective at what I do and I have really good systems, but I'm repressed and doing the things that really really matter to me and so I think there's a whole world up here that I don't always realize, doesn't get out here Because it feels so real to me. I figure that you know I really am sharing it. So you know I do a lot of writing, but it's hard for me to share that out when it's not perfect. You know, maybe if I took some more classes and learned how to do, you know, learn more of the skills about writing, then I wouldn't have to put this out while it's not completely all fleshed out the way I want it to. So I think learning to share what really really matters to me and be vulnerable and sharing it when it's not perfect or completely thought out, has been a huge area of growth that I'm trying to lean into.
Speaker 1:That's so good. There's a few of us numbers, I think, who can relate to that, like do it, even though it's not fully fleshed out, even though it's not perfectly finished, even though it's not fully fleshed out, even though it's not perfectly finished. And you said something else that really just enlightened me, tammy. You said that your inner world of your mind is so real to you, it's so real, and you just assume that it's real to me, it's real to everybody, right? And I was just having a conversation with one of my best friends last week. She's married to an Enneagram type five and she said that he you know they're having trouble with like communicating everything going on in their heads, which as we all do and she said that he said to her sometimes I don't tell you what, what I'm thinking in my head, because I feel like I'm repeating myself, because I've already thought it, and then I tell you when it feels like I'm saying it again. Does that ring for you?
Speaker 3:I think it can't, because I can have a whole conversation, but then when it comes time to like, I have a really well spoken argument about something in my mind, and when it comes time to have the, I have a really well-spoken argument about something in my mind, and when it comes time to have the conversation, it just doesn't come out as well. That's so frustrating. That's so frustrating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll say, for me I struggle with you could call them like debates or, you know, vivid conversations with people that I suspect are in the assertive stance, because for this reason, because I can have the conversation in my head too, but then it's so, it's hard when I'm, you know, with a person who is is thinking so fast and so future, and they could just be so good with you, you know, and I'm like I, I again, like I had a whole argument thought out, but I can't even, I can't even bring it up now, because we need time.
Speaker 1:Yeah we don't have that.
Speaker 3:It's also interesting, I noticed. I'm really appreciating you, the way that you're calling us out one by one, because I'm not the kind of person who's going to just jump into. I might have a thought, but it's like oh, lisa's calling on me, I don't have the space to answer this question.
Speaker 1:So I think that's part of it too, that I'll just think my thoughts and the conversation will go on to the next topic and I'll never share it yeah, I mean probably just a guess, but probably, if you looked at all the Enneagram podcasts that exist, probably there's more episodes with Enneagram 3 guests than Enneagram 5 guests. That's just, I'm just guessing. But yeah, I think it matters to make space and I'm like learning so much from you guys right now. So, but I don't remember what the question was. But does anybody else remember or have a thought to add?
Speaker 2:I had a thought when we were talking I think it was Katie, you were sharing about doing the most important thing, or was it you, tammy, I don't know, but I was thinking about authenticity. And then the four and my doing that I'm so good at really is about other people and it's not I'm actually the worst at at, really it's. It's been growth for me, but I'm the worst at taking time for myself or exploring those authentic pursuits or ideas. I will just my radar and maybe it's partly just being a mom in this stage of life but trying to just do for others. But then that unhealthy side of the two comes out for the four, like when they're in stress, because doing is stressful for me. You know, that's why it's like this disassociated thing, and so as I'm doing a lot for other people, I'm also sort of like mildly resentful and a little grumpy and you know, and it's this, why aren't people helping me? You know that that comes out.
Speaker 1:And does it feel like is it? Is it because you'd rather not not be doing the things?
Speaker 2:Yes, Doing is hard and I think because I care about people, I put that aside and I just do all the things. But I also am like why isn't everybody else doing all the things? Like, why am I over here doing alone? Doing is really hard for me.
Speaker 1:It's so hard for me and I'm putting in so much effort to do the things and nobody is helping me. What the heck yep that's?
Speaker 2:my inner dialogue.
Speaker 1:Katie, what is it like for you, as a nine, to be doing distorted?
Speaker 4:I can be really busy doing things and like all the mundane things, but I don't do the important things, as Tammy said. So an example of my husband and I were in college and we go, ok, we'll go back to our rooms, we're going to do our homework and then we'll meet for dinner at whatever time. So he would he he's an assertive type, so he would, you know write a 20 page paper immediately without doing anything else. And I would go back and I would do the laundry and I clean up my room and I'd talk to somebody and then I check my email or what you know. I would do the laundry and I'd clean up my room and I'd talk to somebody and then I'd check my email or whatever you know.
Speaker 4:I would do all the little things. And then when I got ready to write, then I needed like my water and my pencil sharpened and my notebook. Oh wait, I don't really like this notebook. Where's my other notebook? And then he'd be like, okay, you ready for dinner? And I'd be like I haven't even started my homework at all. And then I would be like, yep, I'm ready, and I'd go to dinner. And then I'd be crying at night going.
Speaker 4:I need to do my homework Because I was busy doing all the other things, but I was busy.
Speaker 1:You weren't doing nothing. You were doing things. Yeah, this is good. This is going to be great for any fours, fours, fives or nines listening to this. Notice. It's something to notice and we care about growth here right, we care about growing into better versions of ourselves, but one really important step before we can do that is noticing um, notice when you're doing this. Notice if you're doing a lot of things, but maybe that one thing that's really important is in the back of your mind and it's not getting done. So I'm curious if you guys can think of examples of like what's an example of that one really important thing that you really should be doing, but you're not doing and you're doing all the other things. Like, what's an example of that one really important thing that you really should be doing, but you're not doing, and you're doing all the other things. Like what's an example of the important thing that should be the priority?
Speaker 2:yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is I do a lot of work with soul care and this idea of making space for you to go into your inner world and like be present and ground and you know, just, you know, sit with what you feel, like your purpose is and like what you need and all that. And I would look at that as one of the most important things and, like I mentioned before, it's like the hardest thing to make time and space to do, even though I know from that rested place, from that self-aware place, I actually am of much better service to my family or my job or whatever. I, when I think of the most important thing, like I that's what comes to mind is I should be doing that and I try to but it. It is significant amount of effort to not just and I know this sounds silly but like not go fold the laundry and tidy the kitchen and do all the things I you know they're always there, they're never ending, but yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:That's such a meaningful, meaningful work for us to do, but at the same time, I think it does get forgotten a lot.
Speaker 2:I would even describe it as the work of just being like I'm doing, an activity of intentionally making myself just be still and be present oh, that's, that's hard.
Speaker 1:That's hard for especially people who are doers right to get into that space. Yeah, I mean, I do want to ask, before we keep going around, jess, if you have anything to share with people of like a first step, if they really wanted to like tonight, make a little bit of space for soul care and to just be to like tonight make a little bit of space for soul care and to just be.
Speaker 2:I would just encourage, like a time of a quiet place, be still put on some music, light a candle if you want to, or whatever, but allow yourself to just get comfortable and just be aware of whatever thoughts, feelings and emotions come up. What's going on in your body, what do you need? I mean, I like to do sort of a daily examine and just what stands out. What's going on in my life, what messages is my life trying to tell me, and just write some of those things down.
Speaker 1:That's a really good practice. Thanks for that, Katie. Do you have one of those examples of a thing the thing that you should be doing, that is the most important but is not getting done?
Speaker 4:Usually it's a written thing or a paperwork thing, because I'm busy walking, doing, driving, doing the things. So one example, which is kind of embarrassing but I just took the Enneagram in marriage class and I never did the test because it's just sitting here right here, boop, it's like I'm gonna get to that in a minute. Don't tell Krista.
Speaker 1:I won't tell her your secret is safe here and with everybody who listens to this episode.
Speaker 4:But that's an example, because I'm like I'm going to do it in a minute, but I want to be really ready, but I'm never really ready because everything's not done.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Doesn't make sense, but it's a perfect example.
Speaker 1:That's a good one. Okay, what about you, tammy?
Speaker 3:it's a perfect example. That's a good one. Okay, what about you, tammy? I think the thing that comes to my mind is kind of what I talked about earlier, but it's I've always been really passionate about um, like what, what's keeping our spiritual communities so stuck and so bound up and why aren't we as happy as we could be? Um, that's something I'm passionate um, but um, I have all. Of you can't see all these things I have. Um, it's the thing that I'll go and I'll dip into once in a while and I really like thinking about it and talking about it. But I think just putting out what I have out in the world, that's kind of the hardest thing, because it's it's not. There's no clear answers, right, it's not completely understandable, so it's hard to want to share what's there, but I think that is the thing that really matters deep, deep down and there's always more information to gather.
Speaker 1:So much more. That's really special. That's a really special topic. But yeah, you can always keep gathering more information and building up your data.
Speaker 3:Building the notebooks, filling them.
Speaker 1:I do see on Tammy's screen a wall that's almost completely covered in sticky notes, or maybe it's note cards side by side and X cards yes.
Speaker 3:This is my brain on paper that I can use as I'm writing to kind of figure out where I'm at, where I need to go love it.
Speaker 1:Um, by the way, oh, color-coded, color-coded, it needs to be in the world. Yeah, and, and I think you know, one of your gifts is you're gonna have, you're gonna have some. It's gonna be so uh robust and full by the time you're ready to release it, right like you're gonna have a lot to share. Uh, what are your guys husband's numbers, by the way, jessica? My husband's eight okay so four married to an eight and katie seven.
Speaker 4:I thought he was an eight, but he's a seven.
Speaker 1:Okay, now I'm married to a seven. And what about you, tammy? He's a one, a five and a one Lovely. I like to geek out about pairings. I think a lot of us do. So the wrap up question for this episode is how can other people love you well as your type? So it's like you're giving advice to people who have your type. So it's like you're giving advice to people who have your type in their lives. How can we love a four, a five or a nine?
Speaker 3:Well, I think being mindful about expectations and giving us time to prepare what we're going to say like giving us the information that we're going to need trying not to withhold information that would be important for us to be able to respond the way we need to, and just giving us space. Sometimes we need to walk through the forest before we find the right tree that we need to talk about.
Speaker 1:How could we do that? Well if, for example, Tammy, if we need to have a conversation about something, how can we approach fives well with ensuring that they feel prepared?
Speaker 3:Depending on what it is Saying. Hey, I want to talk about this thing. You know when's a good time. Maybe don't give us too much time, because nothing is scarier than we need to talk. Okay, but hey, let's talk about this thing, and here's what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:Tell me what you're thinking later tonight is it better for you to have a little bit of time than for it to just be immediately in the moment for someone to demand a response from you? Yes, okay, it's a little bit of, but not too much, because then we might spiral into crazy anxiety. What about you, jessica? How can we love our fours? Well?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I think fours are misunderstood so often. They're complicated on the inside. So I think listening to a four and, you know, trying to validate if they're, if they are trusting you to share their emotions or their experience with you, really try to avoid immediately fixing but first validate, listen, try to understand. They want to be known, they want to. They don't like feeling misunderstood. So if you create sort of this nutshell of what they just said and it's not accurate, like that can be triggering. It can feel like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That's not what I'm saying Like. And now I have to. I have to explain myself. I'm getting stressed Like a practice of just allowing a little space to process emotions, not too much, because it can become excessive, you know, but still giving that space and recognizing that their emotions are a gift.
Speaker 2:Their empathy is a gift. Their depth, uh, attention to beauty, it's all it's. It's a gift. Um, not saying things like you're too sensitive or, um, you're overly emotional. Those are very wounding for a four. Um, that it can just exaggerate the shame of feeling like something's wrong with them. And so if a four really matters to you, just giving a little bit of space before trying to tell them what to do or tell them how they should be, but accepting, listening, understanding.
Speaker 1:That's really great. I really like the part of the advice where you said it's not really helpful to just try to summarize in a nutshell what they said, because then that might make them feel more misunderstood. And as I'm doing that, I am trying to summarize in a nutshell what you just said, so hopefully you get what I'm saying. But yeah, I think that's a really really valuable like they and we're also complex, and that's one of the gifts of the fours is they just show us how complex humans are in, in that we don't need to always try to make things black and white. I'm speaking to me like as a type one. I'm trying to always make things black and white, but sometimes we just can't and it's okay to let things be gray and nuanced and to like seek understanding in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would just add to that also is that part of a four? If they're getting emotional? Part of them, I think, because I've worked with a lot of fours in coaching part of them finding regulation isn't necessarily somebody correcting them and telling them you know, oh, think about it this way or whatever it's through connection. And just because I'm saying this narrative of feelings, of what I'm experiencing, doesn't mean I actually believe it's true. It's that I have to get it out it. It it's painful, it's hard. I want you to help hold this for me and then I'll move through it and I'll move on and realize, oh, most of that was like not real and they were just feelings and they've passed.
Speaker 1:Thank you for helping us understand fours a little better. And, katie, what's the advice you can give for us to love our Enneagram nines better for us to love our Enneagram Nines better when I think about it.
Speaker 4:if I had to say one thing, I would say eye contact, because it encompasses being listened to, being seen, being present with me. So all that is just eye contact. So if anyone loves a nine and they're just like, what's one thing I can do? Eye contact, I love it Simple but effective.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate you guys being with me today. Thank you for your time. Thank you for all the insights that you shared. I'm really excited for people to hear this episode. I learned a lot today. We will have your guys' bio info in the show notes so if people want to get in touch with you or learn more, they can do that. But thank you guys again for being our guides to the withdrawn stance.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having us. Thank you, thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Thank you.