Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
The Enneagram is an amazing tool to help us have way better relationships - and grow emotionally + spiritually.
On this podcast you'll hear stories of people using the Enneagram personality tool
to understand themselves and the people in their worlds.
& I (Elyse) will teach you how to use the Enneagram system so that you feel empowered to use this tool in your own life.
Let's get curious about each others' stories and grow together 🌿
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#17 - How to Use Access Lines to Grow With the Enneagram with Carla Anne Ferguson (8)
Enneagram Coach Carla Anne joins me to talk about how each Enneagram type can experience growth. What can we do to intentionally grow outside of the box of our type? How can we access different points around the Enneagram and use them as resources?
⚡ HIGHLIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE ⚡
- Misunderstood Female 8s
- How Carla Anne discovered she was an 8 through the way she views God
- Checking our “emotional bladder”
- Using Access Points around the Enneagram (sometimes called Stress and Security lines)
- How 8s can use their access lines of Type 2 and Type 5
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Carla Anne Ferguson loves people! But that wasn’t always the case! In her journey through life, Carla Anne has learned skills, tools, and grown into a belief system and world view that has allowed her to grow in relationships, understand herself and others, and use whatever she does to demonstrate to each person she meets that they are important and valuable in the world.
Not only is Carla Anne a college certified Life Coach and Enneagram specialist, much of her life has been a series of experiences giving her first hand knowledge and training through many difficulties. Her life has included many severe health challenges, a divorce, a second wonderful marriage, and tragically, widowhood. She raised and homeschooled 4 kids. She’s authored books, and spoken at small retreats and large stages as the keynote speaker. She’s worked in a variety of industries from automotive to alternative currency to music teaching. Her passions include spending time with her kids, step-kids and their partners, as well as her 6 (soon to be 8) grandchildren. Carla Anne is also a full-time caregiver as a Home Share Provider for adults with intellectual disabilities. Carla Anne works from home as a coach for people who have lived some life and realize they don’t have it all together but want to do better. She coaches with gentle firmness, grace and an inspirational style. (Which, of course, is fuelled by specialty black coffee!)
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For resource recommendations, click here.
The Road Back to You by Ian Cron- start here to find your type
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You are listening to Towards Eden, an Enneagram podcast. The Enneagram is a tool that helps us tell our stories. I'm Elise and I'm here to teach you all about the Enneagram so that you can understand your own story better and have way better relationships. Carla Ann Ferguson welcome to the show. I'm so happy you're here with me today. Thank you, it's very good to be here and I would love for you to introduce yourself for the listeners. Let us know who are you, a little bit about you and what do you do in life.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I'm Carla Ann Ferguson, like you mentioned, and I live in Canada. So I'm in Manitoba, canada, just south of Winnipeg, in a small city called Steinbeck, and so we have just had our first snow, so we're kind of just enjoying the beginning of snow. We're in the mucky stage because it's snowing and melting. So that's where I am in the world, in life. I'm a fairly new widow, but I'm also a mom of four biological children, two stepchildren, four in-laws and six almost eight coming on. There's two more grandchildren coming, so six grandchildren now and two more on the way. I am also a home share provider, meaning I share my home with adults with intellectual disabilities, so I take care of them and help them be as independent as possible, and I'm a certified life coach. I went back to college in my 50s and I decided to become a specialist on the Enneagram, and I love what I do. So that's who I am.
Speaker 1:That is amazing. Congratulations on all your grandkids. That's very exciting. Today is November 21st when we're recording, and we also had our first snowfall here in Northern Indiana, nice, nice. I actually connected with Carla Ann through a mutual Enneagram coaches group that we're both a part of. So we both went through Beth McCord's Becoming an Enneagram Coach program, so we connected in that group. And, talking of the Enneagram, let's hear about how you first discovered the Enneagram in the first place, and then about your type. What was it like coming on your type?
Speaker 2:what was it like, coming on your type? Ah, yes, okay. So I, uh, my, some of my older daughters and a daughter-in-law had been in a mom's group at church and they had been talking about the Enneagram and so, um, I was, like what, I was trained as a disc um, a disc trainer, so the disc personality style, and I was also trained in personality by your um, uh, like strengths, by leading by your strengths, personality styles and a few others, like in the olden days. And so this was new, like what, what's the ideogram? So I did some research and, as I began to read about it, I bought a book right away. I wanted to know, because, of, of course, I just want to learn everything.
Speaker 2:I assumed I was a five or a one, and part of that was because, as I read the eight, I hated the eight. I didn't like what I read, and part of it was just, is hitting too close to home, I think. But I really resonated with the five and the one. I learned quickly that I wasn't the one, but the five seemed really real, like I was, like I think I'm a five, Yet as I just sort of went through one of the things that that, like it fit me but yet it felt like it wasn't like a perfect fit and when I was looking at some of the wings I didn't feel like I had any of the wings and whatever, and I'll just pause for a bit and go back to something that helped me land on it. But you need some backstory. So, growing up in the church and everything, one of the things that always boggled my mind was people would say, oh, jesus loves them and they would feel so loved and I'd be like, of course he loves us, like that's just obvious. He made us, of course he loves us. So what's a why? Is that a big deal? And it was never a really big deal to me, which almost sounds sacrilegious and blasphemous to say that Jesus loves me or that didn't mean anything to me, but like, and I knew that and I knew it was supposed to be important in it, but I didn't have an emotional reaction to that.
Speaker 2:Now, fast forward to this season, when I was learning about the Enneagram, which is quite a long time ago now, I was in a worship, prayer, worship and prayer service, really struggling and praying about an issue where I had been treated very unfairly and the injustice was unbelievable, partly because I was a woman and B I was too intimidating and too strong of a personality for the situation. So we'll probably get to talking about how female eights are treated in the world. But I was feeling such a huge piece of injustice during this time and praying about that. And as I was praying and worshiping, I got this Bible verse that I had memorized years ago that just popped into my mind. It's from Romans 12.
Speaker 2:And it basically says like don't avenge these people, because vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay. And it just dawned on me like God is going to be my protector and he is going to fight for all the injustices that have been done and he's going to do it perfectly so I can sit back and relax because I am truly protected. And never had I felt more loved. And in that moment I realized oh, justice is a big deal to me, being protected is a big deal to me. Being protected is a big deal to me. So my relationship with God grew exponentially because suddenly I realized I don't necessarily care about the ooey-gooey, fuzzy-worm. Loving feelings connect and resonate and feel loved by God's commitment to justice and to avenging those who've done wrong, and that's what helped solidify me as a type eight.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love this story. I love this story. This is so good because it's so illuminating when we start learning how we're wired differently and we don't all think the same, we don't all respond the same, and this is so real in in our faith communities, right is that we? You know it can be depending on, um, even, for example, the personality of a pastor, the way that they teach and the things that they focus on, right, and some of us connect, and then maybe some of us don't always connect with a certain style or personality. And I'm actually, I really relate with you with this Like I don't that the ooey, gooey, like the fluffy part of like God loves you.
Speaker 1:I also would have the same reaction, like, yeah, of course, like can we move on to other, you know parts of it, other parts of theology, like I accept that God loves me. Um, and then for me, you know, as a one, justice matters a lot too, but I think the thing in faith that has mattered a lot to me, especially with my Enneagram journey, is about, uh, is about grace and is about how Jesus, um, jesus paid it all essentially right, like Jesus atones for everything bad, and I don't have to keep trying to be good enough, um, and so that's the thing that will get the emotional response from me yeah, not the oh Jesus loves me. Like, yeah, I, yeah, I get it. But when I think of the love of Jesus through the grace, um, that is that, that's like when I start feeling it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Thanks for sharing that Cause it's. It is so important because sometimes I think we feel like our relationship with God isn't right or good or good enough, because we're comparing it to other people's responses and we are all going to respond to something about that differently, depending on how we've been created.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm thinking of how there's been times in my life where I it's the comparison thing I look and I see even like the way people worship. Okay.
Speaker 1:I would always see people who are very expressive and emotional and worship, and there's this voice in my head like that must be the best way, like they must be you know the best, expressing it the best. And I don't know, maybe like the people who were so expressive in that way, like maybe they're in the heart triad or maybe they're more connected to their hearts and like that doesn't because I didn't, because I don't always like express um my relationship with God in the same way it doesn't make it bad or wrong, and that's what I'm, what I love learning. The more I love about the differences between all of us is like all of our relationships with the Lord don't have to look the same to be real.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and he reveals himself to us in all those ways, so he knows what we need, right, and we don't all have to be the same, and I love that.
Speaker 1:So I love that that's your typing story, that that that that piece of how you connect with God really helped reveal the Enneagram type that resonated with you most. I wanted to ask a follow-up question about this relationship between the eight and the five. Many, many eights that I know have that strong line to five. We have all these lines connecting us to other numbers. Enneagram eight has a line connecting it to five and has these lines connecting us to other numbers. Enneagram eight has a line connecting it to five and has a line connecting it to two. And so, carla Ann, can you tell us a little bit about what does that look like for an Enneagram eight to have the access to Enneagram type five?
Speaker 2:Okay, I like how you say access to type five, because we can use that line, I think, to protect ourselves. And as an Enneagram 8 female, we tend to be quick, efficient, fast, and other people will see us as intimidating and strong. And so we, as 8s, we're instinctual, we're in the gut triad, which means we are going to sort of know what's right to do just because we feel it in our bodies and we know what's right and but as women who are strong and intimidating, we're often like negated or pushed aside, and so I think that, needing to have that, I'm going to use, I'm going to use the word ammunition. So when we what we need is we need backup, right. So, going to five a five typically is a researcher and investigator, and so we go there to protect ourselves. We go to the five to say, well, I've done the research, this is right, this is the way to go, and we can use the five as an, as a as like a warrior, as a shield to protect ourselves. I don't think that's healthy, but I think it's normal and it's something that we do commonly as eights especially eight women, but eight men do it as well we go to five to protect ourselves and we gather the information to prove that we are right. And the reason I say we use a five, we go to five and use it as ammunition, is we can come back. Eights are strong and powerful people and so we go to our five line, we retreat, we turn off the world, we get our information and we come back and we, like, we use it powerfully, all this information to protect ourselves. And the people around us may feel like we just they just entered a war zone with us. We don't necessarily feel that, but they may feel like they just got blasted with, like you know, an automatic rifle of information and proof that we need to do it our way. And again, as an eight, we're just protecting ourselves.
Speaker 2:To move into an eight in a healthy way looks very different. You know like it or it will feel different. So you go to five and now you're going to five as a. If you're going to do this more healthy, you go to five to rest, to retreat and to gather information that isn't going to be used as ammunition, but rather that will be used to help you love and communicate and explain in a completely different way. You might even go to five.
Speaker 2:I try to go to five to find out and learn about other people so that I can turn myself down. I even go to eight to five from an eight to five to see okay, so when I do this, what does that sound like to other people? So an example of me going to five in a healthy way would be writing an email, especially when I'm super activated about an injustice likely, and then I'll send it out to two or three friends. I've got a couple of people that I can send this email to and I'm like, okay, I'm doing some research now Could you guys tell me how this would land on you? And I usually get feedback like, ooh, this sounds pretty strong, or nope, this is really kind, this is really gentle, it's clearly communicating, and that tells me how I need to adjust and transform my words, my communication, and re-look at the situation through another set of eyes so that I can come back into my eight and do it in a kind and loving way.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of wisdom in that. Oh, I love how you shared that practice. You're really modeling a good level of self-awareness for us that you know that when you're so emotional and so angry, you can, if unrestrained, you can communicate in a way that may be unkind or maybe too harsh, right, and so you have a way to kind of mediate that and run it through your community. And I do the same thing as a one, and for me it's that I mean tact is so hard for me, Like it's just not the skill that I naturally have.
Speaker 1:And so I'll do the same thing, like write out a message, send it to a friend, like is there any passive aggression in here that I didn't notice or am I being too critical? So I think that's a great practice. Some numbers probably might not need to do that because they're naturally kind and tactful, but it's just about knowing our strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, I had a conversation with another female eight, kathleen last week and Carla Ann I like that you use this word ammunition when you talk about kind of powering up, because Kathleen was using the word darts. She said when she's in an argument she can just start throwing darts and she knows so much because she's gone to that five place and acquired the information and the knowledge. And then she can come back to the argument and she says'm throwing the darts and I'm doing it so fast and I'm throwing so many questions and information that people can't keep up with me and I will always win the argument.
Speaker 2:Yep I feel that I feel that I will win, whether it's information or power, and that's not a good thing.
Speaker 1:I want to give a little more context on what we're talking about with the lines, and one thing to know about the Enneagram world is there's a lot of different styles and philosophies within Enneagram learning, okay, so different teachers kind of teach things in different ways, and so when we have these lines that we're talking about, each number is connected to two other numbers with lines. There are some schools of Enneagram thought that will say, oh, these are the stress and security lines, or here's the growth line and the unhealth or the healthy line. The more I learn, the more I'm kind of in the school of thought of both of those lines are access points and they can be used on a healthy level and they can be used at an unhealthy level. That's what Carla Ann has been saying too. She's kind of explaining how that point of type five can be used on a healthy level or on an unhealthy level. Am I getting that right?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. I really, really, really strongly believe that they are access lines, or lines that we have access to, and they give us a path and it gives us choice. I think one of the things about personality assessments and styles that people don't like is like it puts you in a box, and I think that's true in many, many personality types. It does kind of say, this is who you are and this is how you behave. But what's the point of that? We all know who we are and how we behave and it's not benefited us. What we need to know is how here. This is who I am, but now how do I change? How do I get unstuck? How do I grow? How do I become healthy? And I think that these lines open up choice for us that we wouldn't otherwise have. We can be healthy, we can be unhealthy and we can choose how we're going to engage the world If we know what's available to us.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's kind of like you know, I grew up. Where I grew up is where I live right now, but I didn't always live here, and there's a particular kind of dish that we eat here in this area and it includes this particular kind of meat. We call it farmer sausage and it's delicious and you cannot buy it just anywhere. I've moved, I've lived in the States California, new York, I've lived all over Cannot buy it anywhere else. And so if you, but if you move here from somewhere else, you've never heard of it, you wouldn't even know to look for it. And that's kind of like these lines on the Enneagram If you have never been introduced to them, you don't even know what to ask for.
Speaker 2:Ever been introduced to them, you don't even know what to ask for. You don't even know what you are capable of as far as growth and transformation, healing, if you don't know what's available. And that's why I think learning about the lines, all the aspects, the good, the bad, the ugly of all the lines helps you make decisions and choices about how you want to present yourself in the world and how you want to live.
Speaker 1:Okay, so for you as an eight, you have a line to five and you also have a line to two, and so could you go into the line to two a little bit, because you are explaining it so well and I want to keep modeling for people who might not know how we can look at both of our lines, so you could be an example for that.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, aligned to two. So people who aren't familiar with the type two they tend to be servants and helpers and they are heart centered, they love people and they're very connected to people and they are very relationship based. And so, eights they tend to come across as though they're not relationship based because they might have one or two very close friends and then they push everyone else away, often with their intimidation. So moving into two can be done in an unhealthy way and, trust me, if you're an eight, you're probably done this, and if you love an eight, they've probably done it to you. And they go to two and they attempt to control because they feel like they know what's best. And so they get into that relationship and they manipulate and they set up boundaries and they let you know what they're going to do for you and what you're going to do for them. And you can over help as an unhealthy eight, going in as a two into situations Because you have energy, you have power, you have all the research done, because you probably spent some time in your five. You are coming to that person who you love so dearly. With all of this, I'm going to again I'm going to say ammunition because it doesn't feel like ammunition to me. To me, it feels like I'm bringing a gift, but it's a gift of grenades. That's what it is, and so it's really not well received by a gentle and soft person on the other side who just feels like I trampled all over, even if I'm trying to help them reach their goals and reach their ideas and live their dreams. What I just did was trample on them, and so that's how you can go to two in an unhealthy way. When I choose to go to two in a healthier way, I am coming alongside and saying things like what is your dream? What do you want? How do you want to do this? How can I support you? I want to love you. Would it be helpful if I did this, or would you rather that I do that, or would you rather do this on your own? Do you want my support? Do you not want my support? And those questions.
Speaker 2:Surprisingly, we think that people automatically are going to want our help, but not everybody wants our help. Some people are like no, you know what. I really want to do this on my own. Or, you know, I might think, oh, like I've, I've done all this stuff, I know. I know how this is going to go. You know, this is not my first rodeo. I know how to do this. Let me help you.
Speaker 2:And they're like okay, but no, I actually I want to do this my own way and I have my own ideas and my own dreams. And those aren't even the colors I like, and please don't design this for me, because I want it to have my flavor and and so we need to be able to step aside and say, okay, this person has a completely different vision. I might even think it's going to fail, and that's okay. I have to step away from that and go. Maybe that, maybe winning and succeeding, is not this person's goal. Maybe this person's goal is just trying, and if I can be here to support and clap and just be there with them while they try, that might be the maximum that they want for me, but it's also the best that they want for me.
Speaker 2:So how can I show up like that? And that's how I move to two in a healthy way. Do I do it perfectly all the time? No, I don't, but that is the way we can come to a two. I married a two, for example. So I go to two, but I married a two, and twos are super soft and gentle, and they are. They're the ones who should send their emails out to other people as well, not to say, is it too harsh? But have I actually said what I want to say? Because they will beat around the bush so much and not actually say what they want to say.
Speaker 2:I married a two and one of the things that we came to in our marriage was um, I would not ever give my opinion, never give my opinion about anything, unless he had first not only shared his opinion, told me what he wanted to do, what action he wanted to take, and once that had been established, then I would tell him my idea. Lots of times we took his ideas. Sometimes it would be like, actually wow, carla, you have a great idea. Lots of times we took his ideas. Sometimes it would be like, actually wow, carla, you have a great idea. Let's do that instead. If we had not had that rule in our relationship, I would have bulldozed over him, because I have my ideas very quickly, very quickly.
Speaker 2:I'm an eight, I go fast. My brain sees it all, figures it all out in an instant, in a split second. Other people's brains don't work like that. They take time to process. I could ask a question and it might take two days, three days a week, for some of that information to land and for processing to happen, and I need to step back and go. Actually, there's no emergency here. I don't need to stay in my opinion right now. So I'm going to move to two in a healthy way and just wait until this other person has come up with their idea, and so that's how we move to two in a healthy way and pull back from being an unhealthy eight in a two zone.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is great Love, all those examples. That's a really a really robust description, yeah, of how you can access that two and access the five. And for the listeners who have listened to my episodes about the stances, this is all going to sound familiar to you Because Carla Ann, being in the assertive stance as an eight, is talking about how she processes so quickly and she was married to a man who was in the dependent stance, who processes a bit slower. And if you want to learn more about that, I have the episodes about the stances where we really dive into those differences. But that was a really great description and I think you've all.
Speaker 1:You've also spoken a little bit about female eights and how there can be some misunderstandings, slash, I will say, reluctance for society to accept some things about the female eight. I was talking to somebody this week actually who is a female eight and she said it took her a while to actually get to the point of realizing she was an eight, because she thinks that the Enneagram world kind of talks in more masculine terms about the eight and she said, well, I want to retain my femininity and be an eight, and so it took me a while to get there, but what other thoughts do you have on that? On on being a female eight Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think that being a female eight is hard. We often don't have, we don't often. I mean, we are feminine but we don't often have the same interest, even as what other women might have. I mean, I'll just explain myself. And there might be other eights who are completely different than me because they might have a nine wing or whatever right, they might be very different.
Speaker 2:But I don't love shopping. I do not love shopping and I really love cars and I really love motorcycles. I love really deep theological discussions and debates. I love challenging conversations Like that's really like. That fires me up, right. But I don't belong in situations where women are supposed to be soft spoken, gentle in the background. No, because I have all the questions and I can see the end result and I don't think this is going to work. Or maybe we need to challenge something. All the questions and I can see the end result and I don't think this is going to work. Or maybe we need to challenge something. And many places women are not given the go ahead to challenge either. Not to challenge a supervisor or a boss or a coworker, especially if they're men, and so that can be really complicated.
Speaker 2:I've worked in the automotive industry. Guess who's not welcome in the automotive industry. It's changing, but remember, I'm not young anymore, so the automotive industry is changing. There are more and more women in there. But I did great. I did great in the automotive industry, except for my co workers. They didn't like that. I was a woman exceeding and excelling in the automotive industry. I also worked in. I'm an author as well, and so that's a little bit different. Because, because for some reason, women are allowed to write, women are allowed to write, but are women allowed to teach? It depends. It depends in a school, yes. At a ladies retreat, yes. In church, no. And so how do you reign that in? It's your gift, it's your talent, it's your gift, it's your talent, it's your personality, and somehow you're told it's not okay because you're a girl. Put the exact same things onto a woman, onto a man, the same person onto a man, and it's accepted. So there's definitely gender bias. When it comes to Enneagram 8 and also Enneagram 4 for men, here's the word coming to mind Injustice.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:That is Enneagram 8 and also Enneagram 4 for men. Here's the word coming to mind injustice. Yes, that is so unfair, right? Yes, yeah, and I feel that I feel that when I attend churches, there are some churches I do a lot of speaking, there are churches that will have me in and speak on Sunday mornings, and then there are some who are like, absolutely not needs to be at a ladies retreat and I'm okay with following the rules if I know what the rules are, but let's be honest about how we got to those rules. That's where I feel. That's where I feel the injustice. If you want to make the rules, fine, go ahead. You're in charge of your church or your business organization. Make the rules, but then be honest about your bias, be honest about the discrimination, be honest about what your rules are, so that people who are joining it know what to expect.
Speaker 2:And that's true because the world in general is not very self-aware. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate what you shared and I think it helps us to hear from female aides about what it's like, because we can have more compassion, empathy and understanding for what it's like for you feeling like I either have to put parts of myself away that I know are so authentic to who I am, or I have to fit into a mold, or I have to be the rule breaker because I'm not going along with it. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a and that's a tricky place to be. I think like, like that whole concept that you're talking about, about putting part of myself away. I think eights well, I think every type on some level feels that strongly, but I think eights particularly feel like, oh, I cannot, I cannot even just be happy because someone's going to think I'm mad, you know, and like. I remember one time I'd been for the first time I'd been into the in. I'd gone to a resort and I'd gone snorkeling and I'd seen all the fish in the coral reef and I came home and I was so excited to talk about it. So I was talking about it and my arms were going and I was loud and I was so excited about this and someone in my family who should know better said to me can you just not talk about this until you're not angry anymore? And I'm like I'm not angry, I'm excited, like this was amazing. And I think that's how we feel.
Speaker 2:We have to put ourselves in a small box so often just to make other people feel comfortable, and that's a tricky thing when you are a powerful personality. The other thing that's really tricky for people who've grown or who are familiar with eights. When an eight has to step back and really move into that two or lean on their nine wing and slow down, retreat and take rest in order to be healthy, the people around the eight don't understand, because they are used to a high powered, high capacity person in their life who suddenly has put on the brakes. And I just want to say to any eight listening you are probably going to at some point be burnt out because you've been going, going, going and you've had the capacity, but there will come a time when you can't anymore and it's okay to slow down, to say no to all the things, to stop being efficient and to just rest. That is also being an authentic eight who's choosing to be healthy, and it's. Sometimes we don't get the permission from the people around us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, and that's tough because we also want to maintain the connection with the people we love. Um, I think this is a great segue to talk about this topic of emotional alarms, and for all of us, there are, there are, there are things that will alert us to the fact that we're getting too stressed or we're nearing burnout, or we need to ask for help, or you know all the things. So let's talk about. Let's talk about that. You have a really great analogy that's going to help us understand.
Speaker 2:I'd love to. I think this is super important. I have to admit, I wish I would have known some of these things younger, when I was a younger person, when I was a young mom, even before that Because we as a society have not learned what our cues are when we are emotionally overwhelmed, and I like to relate this to a bladder like potty training. So, as you know, I'm a mom and I have grandchildren. Most of them are potty trained and so what happens is we teach our children how to know when their bladder is full right, so we start by just putting them on the potty or whatever. Everyone has different ways, but eventually, what our goal is is our goal is that we don't have to ask them do you have to go potty? They just say I have to go potty, or eventually they go potty on their own and they can handle it all. They go to the bathroom, they do their thing and they come back and like that's amazing, and they can do that by the time. They're two, three, four years old most of them.
Speaker 2:But as adults, we also have a bladder, but it's our emotional bladder. Every single day, throughout the day, we have things that happen to us and our thoughts and the things that happen. They create thoughts that create emotions in us. Even if you feel like you have no emotion, you have emotion. You've just pushed it down. And so what happens is we have this emotional bladder and we don't know what to do with it. So many of us, like I just said, we push it down and push it down and we just ignore it, ignore it, ignore it. What would happen if you did that with your actual physical bladder? If you just get that twinge that goes oh, I have to use the bathroom and you ignored it. You can ignore it for a bit and then you can ignore it a little bit longer, but eventually a cough, a sneeze, a bump in the road and you have made a mess and nobody wants to be around you because you stink and you're wet and you have to change your clothes and it's a big problem and depending where you are, it's an even bigger problem. And so we don't want to do that like and we know that eventually it's going to cause us pain if we keep holding our bladder uh, we do the same thing with our emotions we push it down, push it down, push it down and insist that nothing's happening. And then what happens is we come home at the end of the day and something has happened. Your spouse does something with a different tone than usual, where things aren't the way they are, and, boom, you have this emotional overflow because you weren't taking care of your emotional bladder throughout the day, or we just always are constantly blowing up, and that's not okay.
Speaker 2:The thing is we need to learn what those cues are in our emotional bladder, and learning our lines is part of that, for sure. And the goal is to know what your lines are and then deliberately go to that line to relieve that emotional stress. Find a way to find to like let the vent off when it's a small thing, right, that first twinge is when you should go use the bathroom, not three hours later, when now you can hardly make it to the bathroom. But the same thing with our emotional bladder. We take, we go to that five, in my case the five or the two, or whatever your number is. You go to your line, your access lines, so that you can decide who you're going to.
Speaker 2:Let off a little steam right here, and that might be taking a rest, it might be being creative, it might be doing a little bit of research. It might be taking a nap, it might be just literally go put on some cozy socks, breathe a little bit. There's so many different ways, and every type is going to have a different way to relieve some of that emotional venting. And then do we stay there? No, I don't know anyone who lives in the outhouse or lives in the bathroom, and I like to take the picture of the outhouse because it stinks. Nowadays you have bathrooms that need flush and it smells fine, but an outhouse does not smell fine. You don't wanna go there and stay there.
Speaker 2:The goal is to learn how to go to your lines, your access lines, so that you can get the relief you need and then come back Just like if you were driving in the car. You stop at a gas station, you use the bathroom, you get back in the car. You don't stay in the gas station bathroom. That's not what it's meant for, and so it's the same thing with ourselves. We need to learn what those emotional cues are with our emotional bladder, and that is the next part of self-awareness. It's not so much knowing what I do, but when do I do it and how do I feel those things in my body, in my heart, in my head? What are the things that are happening that are clues that my emotional bladder is filling up, and what do I need to do about that? That's, I think, one of the big things about the Enneagram and getting emotionally healthy as well as emotionally mature, and until we can do that, we actually cannot honestly be safe in loving relationships.
Speaker 1:So what are some ways that we can start noticing what our cues are and start learning our own cues, if we haven't ever started doing that yet?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very good question. So first thing I do is find out your Enneagram type and then find out what your access lines are, because chances are those access lines are the ways that you will show your emotional stress. You likely the unhealthy side of that. For example, like I said before, I'm an eight, I go to five, and when I go to five, I can go to five for research and ammunition. I can do that, but I can choose. So if you start looking to say, oh, when, how do I do that?
Speaker 2:Oh, when I feel like I have the need to use information as ammunition for me, that's one of the things use information as ammunition For me. That's one of the things. That's a sign I need to slow down here and I need to actually get some relief for my emotions, process my emotions, feel my emotions and decide a better way to be in that five zone and make a plan to come back into eight. I may even choose to go right past eight and go into a healthy type of two using those access lines. Or maybe, maybe the situation I'm in shows that I'm I'm using my stress to become a very controlling. I'm moving into that two in an unhealthy way. Oh, hang on here. That's not okay. I shouldn't be doing that. So look at your lines, learn your lines. Learn what the unhealthy parts of that are, because that's likely, those are the cues, the alerts to your own stress. And then grow. Work with someone who will help you grow and to move into those healthy parts of that of that line.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is really good and I kind of wish that we could just make this a five hour episode and go through every number. But maybe in the future, maybe we'll do more on specific numbers in the future.
Speaker 1:I'm going to actually give an example for myself.
Speaker 1:And then I'd love to hear if you can like pick one or two other numbers and kind of go through that process quickly. I have lines to seven and to four and again you guys can just Google this, like if you Google Enneagram security lines or stress lines or access lines, it'll come up and you can see what you're connected to. So mine are four and seven and when I um, when I go to that unhealthy side of four, it looks like um, it looks like me starting to feel like nobody understands me, like I'm the only one who X Y Z, like why isn't anyone else X Y Z? And then I isolate, I just feel myself withdrawing and pulling away from people and what I found is that's an alarm for for me to know, actually I need to intentionally go find community and be in community and like go call my best friend or go hang out with my friends or call my sister, right, like something that is going to pull me back into people, because when I start spiraling, the isolation for me actually oftentimes makes it worse.
Speaker 2:So that's one for me yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you, the whole idea about isolation is an important thing because when a one actually any number, like even an eight going to a five, isolation, yeah, we like to go to those numbers, that's going to separate us, right, but how do we engage in a healthy way?
Speaker 2:so let's talk a little bit about two, because two goes to four and two goes to eight, right. So there's those connected lines there. And when a two is feeling stressed, they can similarly go to the four and become similar to what you said, maybe even judgmental, feeling, isolated, feeling like I'm the only one, no one has ever dot dot dot, I'm the only one who has ever dot, dot, dot dot and feel really disconnected from the world. Or they can move into their eight in an unhealthy way and start showing aggression and start controlling people, becoming harsh, maybe even pulling a hard line of this is what's right, because they will move into that feeling of justice when they move into that unhealthy line towards eight. And justice is good, but justice can be overdone. And so that's how a two can go into an eight and become very controlling and decide for you instead of help you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'll say for twos. You know, a two's desire is they want to help, they want to prove their worth and value by being of service to others and they like to give advice. And one thing that can set off a two is if their advice is not accepted or followed. And so then there's that natural step into the eight to be like, oh, you're not going to choose to follow my advice, now I'm going to get aggressive, slash controlling, slash manipulative, to try to still make it happen the way I want to slash controlling, slash manipulative to try to still make it happen the way I want to.
Speaker 2:So, absolutely, that's again they're. They're relationship oriented. Right Now let's talk about the I don't know. Let's just pick a six, right. So six is really wanting security. They want safety. They want to know that all the ducks in a row said they will be protected as well.
Speaker 2:So they, when they begin to feel stressed, they can go to the nine or the three, depending on their situation. When they are going to a three, they are going to become highly competitive. They're going to go into overdrive and become busy, busy, busy. They may start bringing the candle up both ends because they feel like they have to in order to maintain their stability and their security. They may want to be keeping a job or keeping a relationship, so they're going to go into this do, do, do mode to go, go, go, and that can burn them out and it's not a healthy way.
Speaker 2:As they move into that three, they also can move into nine in an unhealthy way. Now, remember, they can do both of these in a healthy way, but right now we're just talking about moving in an unhealthy way. Now, remember, they can do both of these in a healthy way, but right now we're just talking about moving in an unhealthy way. They can move into that nine where they've they've done all the stuff. They come home from work and they just go to their bedroom and now they they scroll or they watch videos all night, they order in pizza. They don't eat healthy, they eat, you know, a whole box of cookies while they're under a soft blanket and they ignore their children, ignore their spouse, because they have to unwind and they're looking for peace in the moment because they feel like they don't have that in their world, because their world is so unsteady and unsafe. And so they're going to create their own little bubble in their own world, often not always, but their own pouch or their own bedroom. They will stay there in this sort of cocoon and avoid all of the things that are happening and distract themselves into oblivion unhealthy way to handle things, but that's often how a six will go.
Speaker 2:Those would be some of the clues. So if you are married to someone uh, one of the really or living with someone one of the children even one of the greatest things you can do is figure out what is their number and what are their paths of stress, because when you see someone that you love moving into those areas that are, obviously they're stressed, obviously they feel like their world is not in a safe place. You can begin to see what those alerts are and you can remind them. You can begin to see what those alerts are and you can remind them, you can enter in with them and help bring them into a healthy space again. But we have to be aware of it, not blaming, but then walking alongside and beside and saying, okay, this is what's happening here, it's not about me, they're not ignoring me, this is just they need me now or whatever the situation is that's beautifully said.
Speaker 1:Amazingly, we are almost out of time, which is crazy, because I feel like this conversation flew by. This was so good, um, I love this topic. It's so important, um, and I hope that you guys can take away a little action step, whether it's just learning a little more, right, just learn a little bit about your access lines, and, of course, it's not all bad. We talked about the stress cues, but there's also ways that you can use your access lines to get healthier, and I'll be sure to link some resources for some next steps. But, carla Ann, what do you have, as far as you have any other advice that you can leave the listeners with, as far as if they could take one step today towards growth or towards self-awareness?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, there's so many things that we can do right, we all have ways that we can learn and grow. But for all the types, I think one of the things would be to say what is it about me that I can restrain, that I can hold back, that I can hold as a treasure for myself while I'm loving others in a way that is meaningful to them? And so for me I'll just start with me. I'm an eight, I'm strong and I'm harsh, and I come across like I don't want to, but I'm also passionate and I love that. So how can I turn my passion into something that other people can feel as love? And so that same thing is going to be different for all the types. So you figure out for you what is one of those things that you love about yourself, and how can you hold that as a treasure and then offer it to the other people around you in a way that they can receive it as love.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. That is great advice. We're going to leave it at that today. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing. I can just tell that you have so much more wisdom and experience that we didn't even touch. But I think this was an awesome conversation and I'm really glad you got to share with us today.
Speaker 2:It was wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:If you liked this episode, let me know. I'd love to hear from you. Tell me what other topics you'd love to hear covered on this podcast and, as always, you can find more content on my Instagram at Towards Eden Enneagram, as well as on Facebook Towards Eden Enneagram and my website TowardsEdenEnneagramcom.