Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast

#19 - The 8-9 Pairing with Kathleen (8) and Ken (9)

• Elyse Regier

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What happens when an assertive nurse and a laid-back paper industry professional get married? Kathleen and Ken’s story is all about opposites attracting—and thriving—thanks to the Enneagram. 

Kathleen (Type 8) and Ken (Type 9) have been married for over 40 years.  Ken’s had a long career as a paper scientist and Kathleen’s been an Operating Room Nurse for many years.

Kathleen, a bold Type 8, shares how her decisive nature helped her navigate life in the operating room and tackle health challenges. Meanwhile, Ken, a calm and steady Type 9, talks about balancing family life while frequently traveling. 

Together, they show how understanding their Enneagram types brought clarity and harmony to their relationship.

⚡ HIGHLIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE ⚡

  • Ken & Kathleen's story (starting in 1981!)
  • All about their careers as an OR nurse and a paper scientist
  • How Enneagram types influenced their family dynamics

📚 RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE 📚 

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to a couples episode. Today you'll hear from Kathleen, a type 8, and her husband, ken, a type 9. Kathleen has been on the podcast before as part of the Assertive Type panel. I absolutely love conversations with couples. I love learning about how two types interact with each other. So let's get to the conversation with Kathleen, type 8, and Ken, type 9. Get to the conversation with Kathleen, type 8, and Ken, type 9.

Speaker 1:

You're listening to Towards Eden, an Enneagram podcast. The Enneagram is a tool that helps us tell our stories. I'm Elise and I'm here to teach you all about the Enneagram so that you can understand your own story better and have way better relationships, story better and have way better relationships. Okay, today I have Kathleen and Ken with me. They are an Enneagram 8-9 couple and I'm really excited because I've only done, I think, one couples episode before. So we're getting more couples on the show to explore more of the dynamics between two Enneagram types. So I would love for you to introduce yourselves. Tell us a little bit about who you are and where you are in life.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I'm Kathleen, I'm Enneagram 8. I went to college, became a nurse, actually went to UCLA and then went right away into the OR, which is great for an eight. It's fast paced, action oriented. You have to think quickly. Most days are not the same. You have to deal with strong personalities, especially surgeons, and you have to be able to tell them no. And so I love the OR and I thrived in it. I actually became a head nurse Is that operating room? Yes, operating room Head nurse and cardiothoracic for about five years.

Speaker 2:

Then we had our first child and then I went, worked later shifts for daycare and stuff and then in the end of 87, moved to Pittsburgh, worked at a community hospital for about 13 years and moved to Minnesota, st Cloud, and worked at a community hospital for about eight years and then ended up going to the University of Minnesota, or, and worked there for about four years. Then I developed health issues. But I was always outspoken and if you're in the OR as a circulator nurse especially, you have to fight for your patient because you are protecting them while they're under anesthesia. You have to make sure the rules are followed. You have to tell surgeons. You know you can't do that. You really have to be able to speak up.

Speaker 2:

So if you're mild and meek, that's not a good area, especially as things can change in seconds and you have to think quickly. I saved many people's lives because I could make quick decisions and you know, no, you can't do that whatever. And so I ended up at the 2012,. I basically retired because I had so many health issues. I went on disability, and so that's basically my story. We learned about the Enneagram at the end of 2018. Our adult children had known about it. We did some reading, took the test, I found out I was eight and it fit me perfectly. Found out he was a nine. He didn't want to be a nine Whatever. And then, in February of 2019, we went on a cruise and we heard someone talk about it, and after that, I started reading as much information as I could, bought books and all kinds of things. So that's me.

Speaker 3:

Okay, my name is Ken. I'm an Enneagram nine. After college I went to work in the paper industry and doing research and ended up moving to Los Angeles where I met Kathleen and then three. After seven years in LA, then had an opportunity to take a job in Pittsburgh for a supplier company to the paper industry and I traveled a lot. I was gone probably 50% of the time. So I was very fortunate to have a wife who was independent and could handle things on her own, because there was times where I'd be gone often. Sometimes I remember one quarter where I was gone, like I think I was home two weeks out of three months.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 3:

So Kathleen became very adept at taking care of everything, especially with our kids, and working part-time, working part-time. And then, uh, in 2000, then, um, my, the company I was working for was brought out by another company and uh so my job ended and, uh, kathleen with the time, was working as a consultant for creative memories and she said you want to?

Speaker 3:

go see about they have. They have a great lab and so you've been doing a lot of lab work. So I applied and got a position as a paper scientist for creative memories and so we moved to Minnesota and we were apart for almost a year because we had bought a house in Minnesota and we still owned a house in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 1:

So how old were your kids at?

Speaker 2:

that time let's see. Our son was 7, 11, and 15.

Speaker 1:

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:

So I basically was a single parent working for that year, Having our house on the market. It was quite challenging.

Speaker 2:

And dealing with real estate agents. The guy was a Royal jerk. Oh, actually fired him because he lied to us Ooh, and I really let him have it. Our kids go boy. I never want to tick off mom because I will win, because that's an eight thing, but he ended up I fired him. Then he had to come back and then he quit and then we eventually sold the house and I always pick the real estate agent because I'm the one who has to work with him. We learned a lot when we moved from LA to Pittsburgh. We were separated for about five, six months.

Speaker 2:

I only had one child so it wasn't too bad, but three children being on call and other things. Thank goodness my oldest was 15. But we called it Hotel Henderson because real estate agents would be in the park in the front of the house. They'd call can we show the house? And so my kids would get to where the house had to be perfect, but throw the towels in the dryer so they looked fluffy and they would hide things in cabinets. Just to make sure it was ready, we called. That's why we called it hotel Henderson. It had to be ready to show, yeah, and then let's see in 2010, he yeah, I was laid off from.

Speaker 2:

Creative memories.

Speaker 3:

Creative memories Because it went dissolved, they went bankrupt. Okay, so I was out of work for probably three or four months, or was it longer.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 3:

And then was taking some training through the Job Placement Center and had my resume out on the Internet and a company here in Chaska had picked up my resume and they hired me. I went into interview on Friday and they hired me on Monday.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 3:

Started working as a research chemist in agriculture and plant or animal nutrition, so a totally different area. Within the first year, we had developed eight new products for the company for micronutrients, for plant nutrition, and started working on more products for animal nutrition. And so then I worked there for eight years, up until 2018. And then I retired and since then, when I worked, did some home projects for about six months. And then Kathleen says one of us needs to get a job, and since I'm disabled, I think you know who that is.

Speaker 2:

So we got a job part-time at Home Depot, yeah All right and they're for five and a half.

Speaker 1:

It'll be six years in February. Oh sweet, Okay. So you're still doing the part-time Home Depot, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Nice I grew up. My dad was a general contractor, so I used to build custom homes and with all the moving that we've done then, we've remodeled every house that we've lived in.

Speaker 2:

Including the one where now we're revamping everything. That's awesome. So when you start talking about an eight and a nine, our energy goes to home improvement projects because we're always busy. We don't sit still and watch TV. We don't even own a TV and so, like we are always busy, even with our kids, we were always doing things.

Speaker 3:

My father was very mechanic, he had a high mechanical aptitude, he was a general contractor. He was a general contractor Anyway. So I inherited those same skills and so I love doing projects with my hands anything hands-on. Um, I'm very good at uh figuring out mechanically how things work and problem.

Speaker 3:

You know, if there's an issue, and a lot of times at home depot then customers come in and they've got some. Really you know unique, unique situations and so they're looking for a creative solution. I'm called upon fairly frequent to help, you know, figure out something that a unique solution to their problem.

Speaker 1:

So I love that, that problem solving. So let's go back and tell me more about those early years when you guys first met. How did you meet? What was it about the other person that attracted you initially?

Speaker 2:

So we met at a young adult fellowship group. We were actually at Bel Air Press where Ronald Reagan went to church way back in the early 80s.

Speaker 2:

So I started going to that church in January of 81. He went, moved to the area in January of 81. In March there was a like the weekend before Easter resurrection retreat and it was in Santa Barbara. We were in LA, so we went up there and I noticed him and he noticed me, and then every Thursday night night we met in someone's house an older house that had lots of bedrooms and so we meet.

Speaker 2:

And then the beginning of May a group of us decided to go to the beach. We wanted to go to the beach for a Saturday, so I rode my bike, because where I lived it's so hard to park near a beach Santa Monica beach that I rode my bike. I couldn't get there as fast as him. And so we met and I noticed him, and then at the end we were there probably six, seven hours, and then a group of us decided we wanted to go see a movie. So then that night, so as we left, he's on his bike and I'm on my bike and I go, oh wow. So most of the way back we just followed each other because Eileen lived north of where he lived and so I followed him and then I rode to my apartment I said, hey, just drive to my house and I'll drive us and it's free parking to go to the movie. And so we did that and there was about a dozen of us that went to a movie and we saw the movie test, which was interesting, and at the end of it I said, uh, that's so unfair of what society says women can't do this or that. So I voiced my opinion and he uh didn't mind it, because usually I have a strong opinion about something. I was like, well, this guy's pretty nice, he didn't care if I have opinion about something cool. We saw each other. So the next Cool and we saw each other.

Speaker 2:

So the next day was Sunday. We saw each other at church. We sat by each other on the following Thursday. Then we went to it's called YAF. He asked me out for dinner and a movie and we saw the movie Ordinary People, which was Robert Redford's first chance at directing Mary Tyler Morrison and that was a very deep movie whoa, about her two sons and all kinds of so that led, and afterwards we talked for a while about deep things in the movie and stuff. So we just had a lot of fun and we were also in the new members class at church. We were in the same group, so we saw each other on Sunday evenings Sunday, you know, and during the week, you know. But we saw each other a lot and we started spending time. We went to Disneyland for the day it was jazz.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it was jazz night at Disneyland.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's cool. So we spent the day and we had a blast and we just really enjoyed spending time and it was fun.

Speaker 3:

We enjoyed the same styles of music too.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 3:

What were?

Speaker 1:

you guys like 20?.

Speaker 2:

No, I was 24. He was 28. Okay.

Speaker 3:

Awesome, yeah, going on 28. No, you were 28.

Speaker 2:

Cause then April, you're 28. 28. I was 24.

Speaker 1:

Yes, Kathleen remembers all the details I'm impressed with. Like Kathleen remembers all the details I'm impressed with.

Speaker 2:

like you remember all the numbers so the first date I think it was May 2nd or 3rd that we went to the beach by the end of the month, he and then we went camping the last weekend in May with our group and the following Monday he said hey, you want to move to Colorado with me because he thought he was going to be transferred. Well, I thought that, thought that meant will you marry me? And so then I said I'm not moving unless I have that ring on my finger Anyway. So eventually, in about 10 days he asked me to really marry him. So we had a little you know discussion about that and I thought I'm not moving unless we're married.

Speaker 1:

What's your take on that kid?

Speaker 3:

yeah, she's correct that I well in between there. Then my brother had come to visit me and stay with me for a couple weeks shortly after we went to Disneyland, and so I remember telling him that after two weeks, yeah, that I really think I've met the girl that I'm gonna marry oh so so our, our courtship or was very quick.

Speaker 3:

Um, we just I mean we I was 28 by then and 24, so we lived apart, you know, and so we were both certainly independent. Yeah, I lived in washington state for three years and worked there and I had friends who were telling me you know, if you're moving to los angeles, you need to really need to check out this church, bellar press, and so I did and that's why I, you know, I started going to church there within a week or so of moving to Los Angeles.

Speaker 3:

And then Kathleen and I met. Yeah, I remember seeing her when we went on the spring retreat and because she was a very good volleyball player and I enjoyed playing volleyball, she was in great shape. I know she had talked about running and I had been doing some running when I was in great shape. I know she had talked about running and I had been doing some running when I was in Washington. So not my first love, but anyway, yeah. And then I asked her out on a date and we just really seemed to hit it off and could talk about all sorts of things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, anything, we had very similar interests.

Speaker 3:

And she met all the qualifications that I had. I put together a list of what I was looking for in a meet. Like what? First off, a Christian woman. It was important to me that we attend the same church, so there wasn't that difference of, uh, faith, of faith, and that she would. You know, I was looking for a woman who was active, um, in good shape and kept themselves in good shape, that she was really beautiful and intelligent and she had a great job.

Speaker 1:

So a lot of practical things. It sounds like you guys both, both of your types are like looking at the practical the practicality.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we're both self-right and he met all the things on my list.

Speaker 2:

My list was need to make as much money as me, need to be a christian didn't drink, didn't smoke. His health was important. I have nice teeth. People laugh at me when I said nice teeth, because if you have nice teeth then you take care of yourself. And a Christian, yeah, and so you know. He was fun to be around, like to be active, you know, and he could tolerate me voicing my strong opinions, and also so I could not have married a Democrat, because I was conservative.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh. Yeah, people talk about if their spouse is the other, like no, like we discussed politics, like no way I could have even dated a Democrat, like even way back then, and I have a number of girls and it's like it seemed like they just told me things that they thought I wanted to hear.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Being true to themselves, and so Kathleen was like a really breath of fresh air in that way.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love that. What a gift of the Enneagram 8 is that you're authentically yourself. There's no BS, you're not going to pretend, and oh, I love that. You noticed that from the very beginning, ken yeah and he also.

Speaker 2:

I liked because my dad would fix things and he did a few things around the house, but he didn't. We my mother didn't have to hire somebody most of the time. He could fix simple things and ken could fix things. He could work on the car work.

Speaker 2:

He, we was in an apartment but he had a house, and so you know someone who has head knowledge but can't do practical things. Yeah, uh, I couldn't have done that because I usually will give him dear. Could you fix this? Just fix it. Don't tell me how, just fix it. That's my thing yeah, no, I.

Speaker 3:

I'd inherited five thousand dollars from my grandfather and use that as a down payment on the house okay so bought my first house there and then ended up moving um, but I did a lot of work on that, so actually this is house number six. Yes, I'm remodeling oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 2:

And so he asked me to marry him at the end of May.

Speaker 1:

We ended up getting married the following January, okay, yeah, a lot of people say that about Enneagram 8s is that you can feel their strong presence when they walk in the room. It's a big energy. Do you feel that, ken? I mean I don't. And is it like different after all these years? Like, are you used to Kathleen's energy?

Speaker 3:

Yes, I would say depends on the situation. But yes, um, she asked me so why? Why is it so intimidating, or why do I come across as being so intimidating and it's hard for me to articulate that so that she understands? Because she doesn't feel that. He says you have a lot of self-confidence, I go well then, why don't you have self-confidence?

Speaker 2:

Why doesn't this person have a lot of you know what you know? And for some reason, when I meet another Enneagram aide, I respect them. I have respect for them.

Speaker 3:

They don't intimidate me.

Speaker 2:

I have met many famous worldwide surgeons. And I said oh, I would love to meet Trump, he would be fun. Would you be intimidated? I go. Why should I be intimidated? He's a human being, just like me. You know I'd be fun to find out about his upbringing. I do think he might be an eight also, he is an 873 and so, and as like if you would listen to some of trump's interviews and the way he talks.

Speaker 2:

He talks like an eight. You know bottom line basic stuff. We don't add the fluff. It's like that's a waste of energy and time, right. And like he's picking people for his cabinet that are very loyal because eights want loyalty. That's right then. And we remember if we got screwed by somebody or somebody backstab us and you will never be our friend again.

Speaker 1:

No trust so I I want to hear more about this. You guys said that it was your children who brought the Enneagram to you initially. Yeah, so what was that like? Did they say, oh mom, you got to look at this. You're definitely an eight, dad, you're definitely a nine. Or did they like let you figure it out.

Speaker 2:

So we were going on a cruise and one of the speakers because sometimes you'll get the agenda and you'll hear the speakers so one of the speakers was going to speak on the Enneagram and I can remember saying oh, I wonder what that is. And so I think I brought it up with my kids and they're like oh, mom, you should take the test. So we went to a couple of different websites, I took it and it described me perfectly. I'm like oh, I'm an eight. Oh, there's no doubt about it. Nine, oh, I wish I wasn't a nine.

Speaker 3:

I'm like why don't you, why don't you want to be a nine? I said that's what God made you. I know, but the uh, the fact that it's like being described as being slothful and slow, and so when I thought, man, I don't feel like I'm that at all, so that's like it totally turned me off too. I said I don't want to be a nine, but I finally had to realize that yes.

Speaker 2:

We have to change the word and not use sloth. We have to use the word you like harmony. You want peace, peace and harmony and that is your goal. Don't rock the boat, don't cause waves, just go along to get along. And I said so, get rid of the word sloth, because I go, I don't like that word either, anyways. And so I said change the word. I word, I go.

Speaker 2:

Look, an aid is known as a challenger. I like to challenge inefficiencies, challenge ridiculous dumb rules that don't make sense or things that are inefficient. So and like the one is the reformer and so like they want to make people better. That's why you make suggestions. And so I said you have to look at it like you like peace and harmony. Like when we were all the time. I said he who makes the gold makes the decision about vacations. I never did. Survey says so. I always like to go to the beach and then my kids go. I hated going to beach. Oh well, I needed to go to the beach for my mental health, because I just love the beach, working on my tan, reading books, swimming, et cetera. And so I learned I should have done better, because he would go and say a nine is going to get everybody's perspective and as we've been married longer sometimes, I'll usually articulate see, your viewpoint is better, because I want to just make the decision. Okay, this is what we're doing.

Speaker 3:

I don't want to do surveys says I need to express my opinion more, more often do you feel?

Speaker 1:

like being married to an eight has helped you do that, has helped you express your opinion more.

Speaker 3:

I would say yes, but I definitely have plenty more room for improvement. Somehow, I think when I was younger, then I was more able to express what I wanted and needed.

Speaker 1:

I don't think so. Younger, like as a kid or as a young adult.

Speaker 3:

When we were, when we first met to a certain extent okay, I was also in a men's um counseling group at the time and that was a huge benefit to me to help me to mature and to be able to express myself, and that kind of community yeah that kind of community is so important

Speaker 2:

because we were recently in a married couples group and we know there's a couple that was eight female, nine guy and I think nines from their growing up years because they tend to want to just go along, to get along. There's a lot of turmoil going on and she wants to tell him what to do and other stuff. I think of course we all have issues from our growing up family. But if you can get some help to deal with the issues you had in your growing up family because if you don't deal with that it's going to go into your marriage, Because I've told my kids who you you marry, you're also marrying their family background.

Speaker 2:

So if they avoid, your spouse is going to want to avoid how they do. If you want to deal with it, so you really need to process that stuff and I think therapy counseling is good because if you can start to deal with stuff from when you grew up and deal with it sooner and better, I think that's a better way to get on the way to health for whether you're an eight, a nine, one, two, whatever through seven and so because you're more aware of how your family growing up years impacts you and then it impacts your marriage and relationship with your spouse.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I would definitely agree and I actually ordered the book. I'm trying to think who the author is.

Speaker 2:

Marriage 365.

Speaker 3:

No, that's one, but the other one about writing your story, your family, family story of your family of origin story, your family family story, of your family of origin.

Speaker 1:

I know I've I've seen some stuff from from the allender center and some books, dan allender has written on that topic.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's one of the guys who works at the allender center. Okay, who's wrote this? Write this book and it's coming out, I think, in february oh, adam young that's it because he he liked that podcast I love adam young.

Speaker 1:

That's one of my favorite podcasts. He, his work, has meant a lot to me, so it resonated with me as well so.

Speaker 2:

so that's how it started. So our kids go do it, and then I learned my son was a one, my, our second daughter she thought she was a six and our oldest is an eight, which I could have told she was an eight because her and I can go at it at times. She's more like personality Her personality is somewhat similar to mine, and middle daughter is a clone of my husband, so then I had them do tri types. And so in 2021.

Speaker 1:

Can you explain tri types for people who might not know what that means?

Speaker 2:

you know you have the body triad, so you have a number that's either eight, nine or one. The heart type is two, three, four, and the mind or the head type is five, six, seven. So really you have one number that you tend to function at from each of the types, so that's the tri-type. So, like I'm an 8, 3, 5. And you can constantly rotate through those and then when you mix your Enneagram 8 with a 3, that's a doubly aggressive number. So you can tend to be I'm very competitive and I like to win. So some things will double up and an 8 thinks deeply. But an eight will also go to a five, because when I find something I want to learn about, I spend so much time like research. I'll buy books, I will learn every possible thing about that topic, and so you know you rotate.

Speaker 2:

So our son is a 136, or the middle daughter thought she was a six, but she's actually a three, six, nine, which she's such a clone of my husband. I go it's not surprising. I'm like, oh my gosh, but if you have nine, the nine overpowers and changes the three a bit. That really is like guides you, but talk about a clone. I'm like, oh my gosh, she's the same tri type. And then, like my son-in-law, he thought he was eight.

Speaker 2:

And I'm like Melissa, he's not eight, not eight, he's actually a nine probably with an eight at times and him and I butt heads and I'm like an eight and an eight we're okay because we respect each other, but you know an eight and an eight we're okay because we respect each other, but you know an eight and a nine can go at it and he's from a different culture, which helps A lot of men. I find you know a lot of men don't like strong, opinionated women. But I worked with many worldwide surgeons who were from the Middle East, other places, and I'm like still got to follow the rules. I didn't have a problem with them. I'm like, just because you think you walk on water and not Minnesota in the winter, you still have to follow the rules. That's that wasn't. I used to say that to people. He thinks he walks on water and not Minnesota in the winter.

Speaker 1:

So I take it that one thing about your guys' relationship, kathleen and Ken, is that Ken is one of the men you met who actually is respecting what you say, wants to listen to you and you feel like you have space and freedom to be yourself and be authentic.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he didn't mind that I had a strong opinion about some. Yes.

Speaker 3:

I find that like.

Speaker 3:

I said very refreshing, actually I love that there's times when it can be a little too much, like when she repeats herself multiple times. I just want to learn to say, okay, that's enough, because after a while I just think it sort of drives me down further. You know, she's already made her and it'd be better if I stand up more for myself and say because, from what I've read a lot and heard on podcasts, it's like eights really want somebody in, especially in relationship, who's going to challenge them yeah, I've, I've heard that eights.

Speaker 1:

You know the, the, the conflict, not necessarily in a bad way, but the conflict and the going back and forth, that can feel like intimacy. Is that true for you, kathleen?

Speaker 2:

very true. Yes, like if I get upset about something I just want him to show yes, I agree with you, that wasn't fair, you know, just agree with me. You know? Yeah, that was ridiculous.

Speaker 3:

You know that's not fair, that's unjust, you know you just want someone to agree with you or acknowledge yeah, that's not right, that's not fair. Because I know eighths is well. All body types are justice warriors, but eights especially, and so I realize now that she would definitely really appreciate it when I speak up and voice my opinion to agree with her in those situations.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, let's talk more about that. So you guys are both in the gut center. So we said a couple of things already in this conversation about that. So you guys are both in the gut center. So we said a couple things already in this conversation about that, right? So eights and nines they're both um justice oriented. They both are um very connected with their bodies. Although it can be a little different, eights can be very viscerally connected with their bodies and their big energy, whereas nines can more fall asleep to their desires and fall asleep to their instincts, um. But I just wonder what's that like for you guys to both be in that gut center and both be um, where your gut instincts are kind of present first, before the feeling and the thinking?

Speaker 2:

so, like when we've hired people to do things and I need somebody, I'm like no, we can't hire them, I don't trust them. Ken has learned over time to listen to me because I can assess people and their character and if they're trustworthy or they're giving us a line and bs no. And so sometimes I teach him I have to teach him dear, no, that guy's not trustworthy. You know, did that upset you? You need to speak up because you see an inefficiency. So I tend to encourage him, like if you see something happen at work, you need to speak up to say don't change the policy because it's going to make us extra 15 minutes of work or whatever.

Speaker 2:

But yes, we take in information via our senses and sometimes I think a nine doesn't realize, like I usually will know when something's bothering before he knows it's like dear, what's going on? Nothing Like nothing. Because he starts to get passive, aggressive, because he's irritated by something but he doesn't know what it is. And sometimes I have to think back what happened yesterday, the day before, whatever the last few days figure out is it this, is it that Is this? And so I have to be like the detective and start asking him saying is this, is this what happened with this? You know, and I usually am right, because it's just like what did I do to irritate you, dear, and I sometimes joke I won't wear purple on thursdays because you don't want me to.

Speaker 2:

Okay, well, just tell me. And I won't wear a purple shirt on thursdays, like, but you have to tell me because I don't know what bothers you. I can't read your mind. You have to speak it. Another thing I don't like that he does is well, I think you're going to react this way and so assume and presume I hate those words. I said you're going to start World War III because you don't know what I'm thinking. You don't know how I'm going to react because every day is a new day and so you have to ask and ask me and give me the chance to say something. I and ask me and give me the chance to say something. I don't presume to know what you're going to say, so I ask questions.

Speaker 3:

And I'm learning that, yes, I need to ask her questions to find out, you know, like, what she has planned for the day, because she's very good about keeping our calendar and so I can handle. I try to put it on my phone calendar so that I've got it available, especially when I'm setting appointments and things. But she has such a good memory for remembering dates and so forth, so it's better if I just ask her and then it minimizes our conflicts, especially over agendas.

Speaker 1:

She was just talking about how sometimes she could sense something's wrong with you before it even is. And I'm wondering from you, ken like what's that like inside the mind and the body of a nine, like the that process of figuring out what's wrong or what's bothering you?

Speaker 3:

it. I mean it takes me time to realize what's going on in my mind. Sometimes it can be an hour or two, sometimes it can be a day or two, and it's always best if I can go out like for a walk, especially get out in nature, to help me really focus on what's going on inside in me, so I know what I'm feeling and thinking and then I can express it. Just as in conflict I become emotionally flooded very easily, I think, from stimulus, and so I have to take a step back and to calm myself down so we can actually then re-engage, so we can actually then re-engage.

Speaker 1:

I think that's a really important thing for people who are in relationships with someone of a different type to remember is we're all different in conflict and we have to learn how the other person, you know processes and functions in conflict, because there has to be some give and take, and what I'm hearing about your relationship is probably, Kathleen. You need to give Ken the space to process and then revisit, and Ken probably you need to, you know, learn how to maybe voice things a little sooner or a little quicker. But it's both of you compromising right, Because you can't just do conflict the way Kathleen wants to or just do conflict the way Ken wants to.

Speaker 2:

Oh, totally I could not do conflict the way he wants to. That's ridiculous. Yeah, I would avoid it.

Speaker 3:

Oh, totally I could not do conflict the way he wants to.

Speaker 2:

That's ridiculous, yeah I would avoid it, because then you have all these issues and then you're walking around on eggshells, which is dumb, like let's just talk about the thing in the room, let's just talk about it, and then we can just move along and OK, you want to do it this way, I want to do this way. I know for me I can't put too many time constraints, like if I want to do a project it takes him so long but I can't try to speed him up because then he'll go slower and more is that the passive aggressive coming up?

Speaker 2:

yes yeah and so I usually say how long do you think it'll take?

Speaker 3:

and then I usually add more time I'm, I have to like double or triple my time estimate to be, accurate.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And then I also remind him, like, if he doesn't like something, just tell me of anybody you can talk to. You could say whatever you want to an eight won't bother us at all. Oh, you don't like that, you don't want to do this. Hey, we're all cool. Like you should be glad you're married to an eight, because we're not going to get upset. Oh, because we know, you know we feel at times we don't like something, this, whatever. Just say it, we're okay with it, we're accepting. We. Yeah, like we have an open heart, open arms.

Speaker 3:

Stay whatever you want, we can handle it whatever you know I know there's times when kathleen and I maybe have a discussion and then I say that you know I need to take time to process because I'm flooded and I'll come back like a day later and then Kathleen will say I don't even remember what we were talking about.

Speaker 2:

Or he'll think I'm still mad. I go, what am I supposed to be mad about? Oh well, we talked about it yesterday morning. I'm like what did we talk about?

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's so funny, that's like you have to remind me. So yeah, for for my husband and I, I'm the one that takes more time to process and he's a three and he's the one that just moves on very quickly. So I have similar experiences where I'll come back and be like okay, I'm ready to keep talking about this thing, and he's like what, what were we talking about? I've already like moved on. You know, and I think that's that's a good thing for us to learn there's the give, that give and take in relationships and I know my, our son's a one and I get along with him and I understand how he feels.

Speaker 2:

Like um, with this November, 11 months ago, he missed becoming a partner and they promoted somebody younger than him and they sort of screwed John and put him in a non-win situation where he worked with lazy people and so he had a more challenging time and all kinds of stuff. And then when he told me that I go, what Like that's not fair, like that's not right, I go. I can't believe they did. So here I'm lamenting with him, which he likes, and then I told my husband Ken does well, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and I'm like what no? So anyways, I lamented with my son and said that wasn't right. But I think my son and said that wasn't right. But I think my son was glad I lamented with him and you know I used to ask what's going on and it's getting better. He's speaking up sooner than letting things like pile up on him now.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I'm, as a one, I I relate to a lot of what of what you're describing of your son, like, like, for example, I also really appreciate if, if I'm mad about something and somebody else can get mad with me, that really makes me feel understood and that really makes me feel like we're connecting. If you know, I'm upset about something and I can see you get upset too, because my husband and I can have a similar dynamic as what you guys are describing, where you know Brayden, where he lets things roll off his back and he can stay calm and he doesn't get fired up about many things. And sometimes, sometimes that's hard for me because I'm like, no, like this thing just happened. Can't you like feel something with me? But then for him it's hard because he thinks that sometimes maybe I'm overreacting or I have, you know, a reaction that maybe isn't proportionate to what's happening, but we're just seeing it differently.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but it is very nice if somebody can say that's not fair.

Speaker 1:

Because that's what?

Speaker 2:

the eight, nines and ones, if something's not fair. Like you favored that person over this person. Like you're supposed to treat everybody equal. Yeah, and for this person and give them a better situation, and then they get a promotion and you don't, because you put them in a situation to fail Like that's just not fair.

Speaker 1:

And for us eights and ones, I think we can access that part that that's not fair really easily. But what is it like for you as a nine, Like when does that justice and that fairness come up for you?

Speaker 3:

Oh, it's got to be really over the top and then definitely I'll speak up. I mean, I can remember one time when I got so angry with the dealer. I was working on the car and they had cross threaded the lug nuts on one of the wheels on the car and I was trying to rotate the tires and I literally had to cut them off with a hacksaw because I could not get them off. And so I went into the dealership to the parts department, threw them on the counter and said you need to change this situation because you cost me X number of hours just trying to get these off, because you cost me X number of hours just trying to get these off and I was like, yay, dear, good job.

Speaker 2:

Because he had asked please hand tight the lug nuts. Don't use the gun where you go around. It will be so hard You'll never get the lug nuts undone, especially if you cross thread them.

Speaker 3:

And he specifically asked for that.

Speaker 2:

I think they did they give you four new lug nuts.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they did four new studs and new lug nuts, so so that that make you really angry and you're angry enough to do something about it yes, definitely.

Speaker 3:

I've been speaking up a lot more at work about situations because it's like part of our. I work in the flooring and carpet and blinds department at the Home Depot store where we live and part of the display for some of the carpets has been broken for over two months now and I keep bringing it up. It's like when is this going to be fixed? And because I don't see anybody else doing it yeah, caring about it.

Speaker 2:

Putting away broken.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

Getting rid of boxes of broken tile. He like carries it out to completion. He's a nine wing one and I think I would want to finish that. Like, when I go to a store and things are put on hangers wrong, it drives me nuts so I like have to put them in the right way. Like it's like your mother doesn't work here. Like a lot of times when I exit a flight, you need to announce your mother doesn't, isn't on this flight, so you need to pick up after yourself.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, part of the like. We have an opening checklist, you know, for one of the employees who is opening up your department and one of them is to make sure that, like there's no broken pieces of tile in that, in the sections that you know you've gone through, because customers will pick that out and they just set it aside, or they may accidentally drop a box. They just set it aside, or they may accidentally or drop a box. Sometimes we get people that will return a box of tile and it's like the top two are fine but everything else is broken underneath and it's like geez I just you know I said I can't believe people are so just um untrustworthy today, and so that makes me angry yeah, that dishonesty of returning something.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that they broke, oh yeah or they will.

Speaker 3:

I mean the worst. Well, some of the worst is it's like they'll they'll buy a blind and then put the old one in the box and then return it to the store to get credit oh yeah, and then, because I've run into that, you know, when I picked it up off the shelf and then here's an old blind in it, which I know is not the right product, and I'm thinking so this you know, the store is getting screwed screwed you know, it's like shoplifting yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

I think there's kind of a this well assumption or like this opinion in culture today that like, oh, the big stores, they're fine, they have plenty of money, they're a corporation, it's not gonna matter if I, you know, return this or do this little thing like they have enough money no, because there's so much shoplifting.

Speaker 3:

It's ridiculous I mean home depot used to allow customers or employees to have a discount on product, but they had to stop that. I mean they tried three different times and people just took advantage of it. They they had coupons and so forth that they would give people, and then they were selling those online.

Speaker 1:

Oh geez.

Speaker 3:

Okay. So they had to totally stop that. So it ruined it for all the employees. So no one gets a discount or anything. I mean I'm fortunate, because I'm a veteran, that I get a discount for being a veteran Not on everything, but it's certainly those little things do help.

Speaker 1:

Oh well, happy Veterans Day, by the way.

Speaker 3:

Thank you.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, like before my husband retired in 2015, the bosses at his company came in and said would you like to be the manager? And so my husband thought he didn't ask me though, do you want to be the manager? He thought, oh, I'll just be the worker. Worker, even though he had 35 plus years research experience. The other guy had a master's, but maybe only eight to ten years, and I'm like what?

Speaker 1:

why didn't you say the agriculture job? The agriculture, research.

Speaker 2:

Okay, research yeah, and I'm like why did you say that? Because I'll grab he's to get rid of you. He doesn't like you because he feels threatened by you. And what happened three years later? That's exactly what happened. Agrabi framed it and screwed him and made him look bad and ken decided to retire. Before you know he was.

Speaker 2:

There was another injustice and he was set up and of course I I was right with what I predicted, which really made him mad when I'm right. But I said, dear, just say you want to sleep on it and come and consult me and I'll tell you what you should do. Like right now, the home depot would love for him to be the boss of that department. I'm like he goes well, I have a lot more honey. I got to get some more honey. Do projects done, you know, and once I get that, I could work. You would be a great boss of that department because you could set up some things you want everybody to do, instead of allowing these lazy people to get away with not doing their job. And I've encouraged him to speak up. He has no problem working with women who are very strong and opinionated, who know exactly what they want. Like what did you say, somebody walked up yesterday hey, I want you to find me a discount so I can get a discount on my blind or carpet order.

Speaker 3:

And so he, he is an intimidated, he goes okay, and then, and he found a discount yeah, doesn't bother you, no, that's awesome yeah actually, I'm learning that I appreciate women who can make up their minds easily, because it's like the ones who take two or three weeks to choose a color for carpet. Oh, I had this one lady, um, I think, two weeks ago who she? She basically described the whole inside of her house and then she said, oh, I have to sleep on it and I'm hoping that I never see her again, because it was like what a waste of money.

Speaker 1:

Oh geez, how much time did you spend with her.

Speaker 3:

Probably an hour and a half.

Speaker 1:

Oh geez.

Speaker 2:

So I like we'll remind them just make a decision, just like a GPS. You can then recalculate as you decide to go a different route. So I go, that's how I am. I'll make the decision and if I, as I'm going on I don't know if that was the best I'm going to recalculate and I'm going to go this way. So I go. If you could think of, when you make a decision and you need to change it, you're going to recalculate, like your GPS. The roads close, so now you have to turn this way, and so then you recalculate. And so I've started saying you just need to recalculate, don't think you made the wrong decision, you're just recalculating. Okay, because I like to. I make decisions quickly, that's what I want to do. But then all of a sudden I'm going no, I need to recalculate. Maybe I need to do this.

Speaker 1:

Man, what a good way of thinking about it.

Speaker 2:

So that's how I view it. I said I'm like a GPS, and GPS is if you find the roads closed, which when we were vacationing in September and we went places and the road didn't say closed, but then we had to turn around oh, we're recalculating. So I try to remind them make a decision and go with it, and then you could recalculate if, oh, this happened so, then you can change. So you don't beat yourself up because, oh, I didn't make the right one. Well, let's just say it was right or wrong, so recalculating.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

So I like that. And yeah, ken, with your one wing, that makes sense. You know you might be more sensitive to oh, did I make a wrong decision? Because that's how I am too, but I like that, I didn't. It's not. It wasn't a wrong decision, I just need to recalculate and change direction. Yeah exactly as.

Speaker 3:

Kathleen says, says it's like you, you know, you look, took in all the data and then you assessed it and you made the best decision you had based on the information you had, yeah, at the time. So don't you know, criticize yourself or think that, oh man, I screwed up and made the wrong decision.

Speaker 2:

Yeah no, you just got more data as you went five miles down the road.

Speaker 3:

The roads it's like, oh okay, I need to change, make a different decision and go a different direction, or at least change how I was going to do something.

Speaker 1:

Slightly may not be a hundred percent, but change let's talk about stances a little bit, and actually a lot of things we've already been talking about relate to stances. But we've been talking about stances lately on this podcast, which is a great topic. Um kathleen actually was a guest on an episode we did about the assertive stance. So what we mean by stances you can go back and listen to my whole episode explaining stances in detail. But real quick, what we mean by stances is there's three numbers who are assertive and future oriented. There's three numbers who are present oriented and they are compliant, so they're more. They're more looking around at what are the people around me want and need and what are the expectations and what are the rules I need to follow. So that's one, two and six. And then those assertive numbers I was talking about. Those are threes, sevens and eights, who are more just moving forward, pushing on. They kind of can go against people. They don't really let people get in their way so easily.

Speaker 1:

And then we have the withdrawn stance and that is four, five and nine, and the withdrawn numbers are past oriented, so they spend a bit more time thinking about the past. They're a bit slower to process and when they get overwhelmed they will, or when they get stressed, they'll withdraw into themselves. So one thing that we were talking about today is Kathleen with your future oriented and Ken with your past oriented. That makes a big difference in conflicts and arguments. Right, because I think that makes a big difference in conflicts and arguments. Right, because I think that makes a big difference for processing speeds. What I've heard about the assertive numbers is they process very quickly and for the withdrawn numbers, they take a lot more time to process, and that, again, this is. There's nothing good or bad about this. This is just how we're wired. So, yeah, I wonder if you guys have more thoughts about any other differences that kind of affect affect how your relationship works or how you raised your family so let's see, our kids used to say we're having a fight.

Speaker 2:

I go, we are not having a fight. Webster's defines a fight as a physical contact. There's no physical we are having, and I use Webster's a lot when I want to define something. What is Webster's say? So I say we're having an intense discussion. You know, we're expressing feeling, we're expressing our opinion. So it's pretty intense. We're discussing this topic, and so you know, sometimes our kids were wondering if we were going to actually stay married or whatever. But you know, I called in an intense discussion about this.

Speaker 2:

But when we come and we need to make a decision, a lot of times if I think it's no big deal or I want to do something, I'm just going to go ahead and make the decision hey, we're going to do this is where I want to go on vacation. I don't really care. If you don't want to do it, I'm going to do it. That's usually how I do it. But if it's something that involves maybe a lot of money, so then I have to ask his opinion. He might need to think about it, and so I have to give him enough time so he can think about it. Do you want to do this, and as long as it's not a matter of life or death or something I need to make within the next 24 hours, maybe it's a sale and if we don't decide I'm going to lose this big discount.

Speaker 2:

I have to give him the time, and sometimes that can be difficult for me because I, like, want to decide now. You know, come on, let's just decide. Yeah, it looks like fun, but he needs more time, and so I have learned I have to develop patience, and the other thing I've learned about nines is you can't tell them what to do, because that was a couple we saw they had a fight about. He makes chili following the recipe exactly this is a nine and she just adds whatever, and then she wanted him to make the chili.

Speaker 3:

And I almost wanted to speak up.

Speaker 2:

He doesn't need another mother, and sometimes I've said that to my kids. Look I already had a mother. She passed away. I don't need a new mother. Okay, I can make my own decisions. You can share your opinion, but you can't tell me what I should do, and so leave me alone. So he doesn't need another mother, and he doesn't want to be told what to do. He has to have the time to make his decision.

Speaker 3:

And I I realized that nines are the most stubborn of all the anagram types and I've I know I've told Kathleen a couple of times that if you just ask me to do something, then I'm generally more than willing to do that. But telling me somehow that just that really ruffles my feathers. Like you, I need you to do something, then I'm generally more than willing to do that. But telling me somehow that just really ruffles my feathers, like I need you to do this now, and it's like, ooh, okay, I mean, how important is this really to you?

Speaker 1:

do you start dragging your feet?

Speaker 3:

then oh yeah, or I may not do it at all, I'll do it in my time.

Speaker 2:

I try to not say hey, when you get a chance, could you do this?

Speaker 3:

you know hey like you've asked me, I think for three days now, to uh spray the. She washed all of our like outside coats, winter coats, and she wants me to put water repellent on them and I said I would do that on Sunday. I didn't get it done. You know, sometimes at Enneagram 9, I think we have the best of intentions, we overpromise but we underdeliver.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, with 9s it's.

Speaker 3:

Sorry go ahead. It's not on purpose, it's like I just totally I really forget about it that I've said, that I've committed that I would do that in this time frame. So I'm trying to get better about what I commit to do. I will do that today.

Speaker 2:

I thought you already did it. I just got the I don't know. I could do it after this interview yeah, perfect.

Speaker 1:

And the eights and nines are both one thing that comes with being in the body center, right, because you guys are different stances One of you is assertive and one of you is withdrawn but you're still connected by both being in that body center. And one thing we know about the body center is that those people are action oriented. And one way that that comes across for nines is nines are very busy, they stay very active, they do a lot of things, but they don't always do the right thing or the thing that they're supposed to be doing, so prioritizing can become difficult. So you might you might've been busy the whole day Sunday, doing so many things all day, but yet that the one thing that maybe should have been prioritized just got forgotten about.

Speaker 3:

Yeah Well, I was also. I've been realized that I need to do some outside painting on some of the trim on our house, because I did not realize how badly cracked the paint was, and if the temperature is getting colder here then that needs to be addressed. So I placed a higher priority on that. Uh-huh, doing the coats, even though I'd promised kathleen to get that done yeah, because I know this is probably like the last week that I can get any outside painting done okay they're getting too cold I've got one, one last thing to chat with you guys about today before we wrap it up.

Speaker 1:

And Kathleen and I actually met through Krista Harden's Enneagram and marriage training and I'm going to talk about Krista's glow guides for a minute. So Krista Harden has made these. She calls them glow guides and it's there's 45 of them for each possible combination of Enneagram type, right? So it'll be the one and the one, or the one and the two and the one and the three and so on. And she these are actually pretty robust guides that have a lot of info about each number individually and then how they come together. So I'm just plugging that. First of all, if you guys are in a relationship listening to this podcast and you want more, just like some more good info, you can go to enneagramandmarriagecom and they cost 25 bucks, um a piece so you can grab the one that's for your type. But I'm gonna read a page from the eight nine pairing and then just ask kathleen and ken to share some last thoughts based on this. So in in these glow guides, krista gives them like a cute little nickname. So each pairing has a nickname. So the nickname for the eight nine pairing is dream big. And here's what it says.

Speaker 1:

The eight and nine crave creative and innovative work experiences, often together. They also enjoy rest times together, trying new restaurants, traveling, taking care of animals or their children. They start companies or work to top levels. They serve political or physical environments with passion, peace and action. The fact that both members of this pairing are witty also creates a chemistry for a long-term fun. Once the eight feels disarmed and safe with the nine, they can say anything and be understood and accepted. The romantic and vulnerable depths of the confident eight has the ability to get the pair moving, while the peaceful and practical countenance of the nine make them efficient. They will work to find their natural roles and vibe together, and so many of those things and those guides are things that you guys talked about in this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I would say it's pretty accurate. Um, I think anything that stands out.

Speaker 2:

Well, the eight feels just aren't. When once eight feels disarmed, I would say, once the eight feels the person is trustworthy, then they're safe, that they can be themselves. Because trust is big with eights. And, yes, we're very doing action because we love, we remodel every house we lived in remodel. We actually had a house. I had a had a house in California that we remodeled and sold in 2020 in the middle of COVID.

Speaker 2:

What a nightmare that was, and most of the time I was in California flying back and forth but having, unless you have rental houses where you live that you can physically go look at them. That is a very difficult thing because in California, minnesota, renters have more rights than the homeowners and for three years they didn't have to pay. They could have not paid their rent. There was no penalty. It's like what? And then in California you can't sue your renter because they don't own property, you can't attach their wages, so it doesn't, even if you try to go to small claims court. I had to spend a ton of money to fix that house up but I was glad they left. But you know that.

Speaker 2:

So if I can give him enough time so he can develop this plan but sometimes I'll start planning hey, what do you think about this? Hey, do you want to do this? So I'll have these ideas. And then, hey, do you think we could do this? I wanted I have this idea. Can we change the kitchen this way? Are you crazy? I'm like, oh well, why not? That's so much work, okay. So then I have to reassess my plan of what I wanted to do recalculate recalculate.

Speaker 2:

You know like, we remodeled our kitchen and then we had to have a discussion about cabinets because we both like wood. So we picked wood. And so I picked because I wanted the cabinets all the way, the ceiling and a certain kind, and I knew the flooring I wanted. And so then we went to the store. I allowed him to make the decision about the wood because I made I'm like no, this is the flooring, this is the color, this is the granite. He can make a decision, he can put his two cents in about the wood cabinets, and then we use the kitchen designer there. That lady said, oh. So I said dear, which two or three do you like? Then we showed her and she actually said you should pick this because the otherwise that too much. And so it actually worked out well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then what about you, ken? What stands out from the GLOW Guide?

Speaker 3:

We care about, certainly our relationship, and that's excuse me. And then community is important, church as well. Yeah, we're involved in church, we greet, and for years I was an usher at other churches, and so that was something that Kathleen had no interest in. So I really wanted to find an activity that we could do together.

Speaker 1:

So, greeting.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and we went to New England in September and to Quebec and we had planned to do some hiking and so forth when we were in Acadia National Park and I really realized that some of Kathleen's limitations on that, especially when we were trying to do one specific hike, because the trail was very rugged and her balance is not good enough to to do that sort of thing anymore- Rugged like two, three foot rocks with no guard rails, and I had handrails or anything. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Handrails. And so, like I had fallen, in March of 23th, broke my left clavicle, and then the following year I fell down the stairs and broke my right clavicle, very cognizant of making sure I hang on and I the first rock was two feet, the next one was two and a half and I'm like big rocks as we're climbing, I'm like I'm not taking any chance.

Speaker 2:

So then I backed down and then I decided I walked to town. He's like where are you? I'm like I changed my mind. I went this way, I go, I am. I walked to town. He's like where are you? I'm like it changed my mind. I went this way, I go. I am not going to climb without any handrails, because when we were like in Montreal, we walked all over the town and we went up to this one place it's Mount Royal, and there's a lot of stairs, but there's handrails beside the stairs, so you always have a railing you can hang on to. We didn't have any problem with that, or the decline or as you're going down. It wasn't that steep, so you didn't always need it. But when you are like steep, steep, I'm like, and going up, I'm like, whoa, I need to hang on to something.

Speaker 3:

So so that was just a really eye-opening for me as to I need to make some reassessments in you know what we can do so. That was very eye-opening in a good way. Um, I was able to make it all the way to the top, which, of course, is typically my goal. Okay, five hour hike, you know, up and down. Like, I think, nine miles round trip.

Speaker 2:

And he also got to go biking, which I told him you love to bike, so go rent bikes for a day.

Speaker 2:

And then I went to some museums which I love. History Cool. I got to go learn some historical parts about Acadia and Maine and then I went on another day, went out on a boat cruise for three, four hours and on the outside of Maine and got to see the coast and saw seals and sea lions and other things and lighthouses. So then I got to do what I wanted to do. I said you could come, but if you don't want to go right, go rent your bike and ride around. That's fine, I don't care.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, you guys are. You guys are still comfortable, like all these years later, doing things together but also being independent when, when it's time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, why should I make him do something he didn't want to do? You don't want to do that, so you don't want to do it.

Speaker 1:

So let's end on this. If you guys can distill it down to a couple sentences what advice would you give Kathleen, what advice would you give to somebody who is in a relationship with a 9? And then, ken, what's some advice you would give to someone in a relationship with an 8?

Speaker 2:

so if you're in a in a relationship with a 9, you have to give them enough time to process, or be patient with them, say, hey, if you're thinking about this, you don't know what's going on.

Speaker 2:

We need to be back in a few hours or 24 hours it has. You have to put a time on it so they'll actually think about it. Would be one thing. And, um, you can encourage them to share with you, because a lot of times they're so used to not wanting to rock the boat and so I think, reminding them that you could say whatever you know and you know, share so that I understand and don't assume things about me because you'll probably be wrong, because I come, you know every day is different and you can change your mind, and then don't be afraid to make a decision, and then you get more information, then you can recalculate, change direction because you've got some extra information. You know it's probably what I would say, um, and then I think you can help to wake the nine up, to make them feel comfortable sharing and I'd say from a any grand nine dealing, you know, learning to um, how to engage with an eight is one.

Speaker 3:

Challenge yourself to speak up and challenge them and learn how you can really speak your mind and learn what's going on, like I need to learn what's better about learning what's going on in my gut, that what I'm feeling is accurate, because sometimes I doubt myself. And again, just learning, really learning to speak and encourage. And then also, as I know Kathleen had said, when she's upset about something, no-transcript or say that's not right.

Speaker 1:

I agree. Yeah, those are awesome. I love the advice that you both shared. Thank you for that and thank you for this conversation. I love this. You guys are awesome. I'm so happy that we got to chat and thank you so much for your time. You're welcome.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for being a great moderator.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh, thank you. If you liked this episode, let me know. I'd love to hear from you. Tell me what other topics you'd love to hear covered on this podcast. And, as always, you can find more content on my Instagram at towards Eden Enneagram, as well as on Facebook towards Eden Enneagram and my website towards Eden Enneagram dot com.