Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
Welcome to Towards Eden Enneagram, a show where we dissect our Enneagram types so we can understand ourselves and have way better relationships.
The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations, our blind spots, and the differences between myself and others.
We can use it to see ourselves more clearly and to get healthier.
The Enneagram isn’t about what we do. It’s about WHY we do what we do.
Towards Eden, an Enneagram Podcast
#35 - Enneagram 101: What is an Enneagram 8? with Katie Stilson
Enneagram Type Eight Katie Stilson joins me to tell us what it’s like to be an Enneagram 8.
Intensity! Honesty! Bossiness! Type 8 is called "The Challenger" or "The Boss." Eights are intense, direct, and fast moving. They make decisions and take action quickly. They're motivated by a need to avoid vulnerability and stay in control of their own lives.
Katie tells us about the Enneagram 8 fear of being controlled or betrayed, and she gives an awesome explanation of being in the Gut Triad.
Katie works as a camp director at Springhill Camps in Northern Michigan. You can email her at barnes.katie328@gmail.com.
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The Enneagram is a tool that illuminates our motivations, our blind spots, and the differences between ourselves and others. In this series, we explore the question: what is the Enneagram? That's the title of the first episode in the series. That episode gives an overview of the whole Enneagram system. So if you don't know much about the Enneagram, start there for context. Here's the most important thing to know about the Enneagram. It is not about what we do, it's about why we do what we do. So today's episode is what is an Enneagram type 8? Here's what Ian Kron and Suzanne Stabile say about eights. Commanding, intense, and confrontational, they are motivated by a need to be strong and avoid feeling weak or vulnerable. AIDS are in the gut triad and they have an emotional struggle with anger. They externalize their anger and they express it quickly and easily. As a gut triad type, they take in and respond to life instinctually or at the gut level. And now it's time to learn all about AIDS from my conversation with Katie Stilson. My type 8 guest is Katie Barnes. Katie is. I got married. Oh shoot.
SPEAKER_01:People call me Katie Barnes. It's like the it's my full name. Katie Barnes Stilson now, I think, is probably it.
SPEAKER_00:My Integram eight guest is Katie Stilson. She got married last year. We've been friends for a long time, which you can probably tell since I used her old last name. I love it. Katie, um Katie is, like I said, a personal friend. And Katie's sister Emily is also one of my good friends. She's getting married this weekend. So we are like riding the high of wedding energy. Are you just so excited?
SPEAKER_01:So pumped. It's been awesome. I know. I can't believe it's here. We were like, it's wedding week. That's amazing. So exciting. It's been a whirlwind of a year. So we're it's like, yeah, so pumped.
SPEAKER_00:Some of you may actually remember Emily. She's been on an episode with me. She's in Enigram 7. So there's an episode called An Enniegram 7 Learns to Feel All the Emotions. And that is the aforementioned Emily. Soon to not be Emily Barnes anymore. No. So, Katie, can you please tell everybody where in the world are you? Where in the world are you located? And what do you do in life?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I currently live in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Moved there six years ago. And I work for um a summer camp called Spring Hill. And I'm their program and training director. So we just got through our three weeks of training and our first week of camp. And then I was able to take a deep breath. So excited to be here and celebrate my sister's wedding. Um, but as you said, I got married last year, so newly married and loving newlywed life. It's been a real joy to figure out life with another person. We're having fun.
SPEAKER_00:It's been great. Do you know what Ennegram type your husband is?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, he's a nine.
SPEAKER_00:Amazing. Nine eight. An eight-nine couple. It's so cool.
SPEAKER_01:One of the best parts about our premarital counseling actually was our um, they were a nine-eight couple. Oh, cool. Really cool. So genders were flipped, but um, it was super helpful and it has been helpful in conversation. And even as we've met with them a couple times afterwards, I'm like, oh yeah, okay. You can see how this interacts and figures out.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. That's so helpful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's been super cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yay. So we're here to talk about Enigram 8. Yay. Um, I'm gonna go through some of the basics of type eight, and then we're gonna hear your story about how you figured out you're a type eight and what it's like for you to embody that Ennegram number. Yeah. So Ennegram eights, they're called the Challenger. Eights have the core desire to protect themselves and their inner circle, and they want to be in control of their own life. So, a common thing that people say with eights is they don't care so much about controlling other people. They just really don't want anybody else to control them. That's a big desire is to maintain autonomy and control of their own life. And then the core fear of eights is being weak, powerless, controlled, or betrayed. Ennegram eights are part of the gut triad. So we have within the Ennegram system three triads or centers of intelligence. We have the three numbers in the gut triad, which are eight, nine, and one, three numbers in the heart triad, two, three, and four, and three numbers in the head triad, um, five, six, and seven. And that just means we lead with a different type of intelligence. Um, so the gut triad numbers lead with their gut instincts. And that is where Katie sits as an Enneagram eight. So now, Katie, yay. Tell us about how you figured out you were an eight. How did you even come upon the Enneagram in the first place?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a great question. So I'm trying to remember, probably a decade ago, um, it was Enneagram was becoming pretty popular. I was a campus life director in the in Northwest Indiana, and um I read, I probably read The Road Back to You. I don't know. We were reading lots of different things at the time and like figuring it out. And I knew immediately I was a seven. I was like, yes, look at my life. Um, I was spending all of my free time traveling the world with friends, and um I was the fun single friend, I would say, of a lot of my friends. And so um I felt like I was like, oh, I'm a seven. This is great, you know, like um talking about escaping pain. And um I was like, yeah, that makes sense. So for a long time I thought I was a seven. Um and as you've mentioned, Emily is a seven, my sister, and we were living together at the time, living our best life. And while on the outside, we look really similar, like people physically look similar, but also our lives just looked very similar. Um, it made sense that we were the same number, you know, and we kind of would talk about it a lot. And then um, I got a new job and I moved away and moved up to Michigan to work for Spring Hill. And the Enneagram was still pretty popular. So this was six years ago, must have been 2018. And um, and I can't remember how it came about, but I started to be like, you know, I don't know that I am a seven. You know, it was like I would read things and I'm like, I don't know that I like fully align with that. And so um in the road back to you, there's like these 20 questions or 20 statements that say what it might like to be a seven or might like to be an eight. And of the seven, a lot of them I was like, yeah, that's me, that's me. And then um I read the eight. And if you know other eights, you like don't want to be an eight, I would say, because like the I don't know if that's true, but the people that you meet who are unhealthy eights, you know immediately. Like you can probably think of people in your life, you're like, they're an eight. And it's like always kind of with this like eye roll. And I had my boss at um one of my previous jobs had been an eight. And I was like, no, that person's an eight. I'm not an eight. I'm not like that person. I'm not like that person, yeah. And there's different levels of health, as you know. And then as I started to think about it, I'm like, well, in my own journey, when I'm not that healthy, maybe I have looked like that. Um, and you know, some of the words that they would use for an eight would be like a bully.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And we now jokingly, it's been six years since I am an eight. And I'm like, oh, like I kind of am sometimes. Like I have the history when I was a kid of like being a bully. And a lot of it was to be either. Yeah. I didn't know that. Oh, really? Oh, well.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:We'll share some stories offline about that. Just um one of the, I mean, I got in um, I got kicked off the bus when I was in fifth grade for beating a kid up because they were making fun of another kid. And it's so funny. I always had a lot of shame around that story. I'm bouncing all over the place, but um, I was in fifth grade. So I like remember the whole situation. But the way I remember it was like I got in trouble for being really aggressive. Yeah. And my mom recounted this story recently. And she's like, oh, she's like, I knew at that time if you were gonna get in trouble, it was gonna be for something good. Because it wasn't like a mean bully to be mean. It was like you were protecting someone who was um getting hurt or like was being made fun of. And that actually that just probably three years ago, my mom like retold that story in some way. And I was like, oh, that was a little healing for me. Yes. Because I even like as an adult probably still had some shame around that. I was like, oh, like I was not like I don't even know, like not a good kid or not.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and that story, like you can look at it as, oh, you were being aggressive and physical to another kid, or you can look at it as, oh, you were like standing up for the underdog, like somebody was weak and being picked on and you protected them as a fifth grader.
SPEAKER_01:As a fifth grader, I know. So I always saw it as the other, the first one. I always saw it as like, oh, I wasn't a good kid. And my mom retelling the story, she's like, no, you were standing up for the underdog. And I was like, oh, oh, that changes it. So anyway, um, there's I was gonna read three of these things because when I feel realized I might have been innate, I read three statements to my friend, um, who's still a good friend of mine today. And I was like, I might be innate, but these aren't true. Okay. And then she, after each of them, you you'll probably laugh at these two, but she was like, No, yeah, that's you. And I was like, oh, um, but the first one, the very first one is I've been told that I'm too blunt and aggressive. And I, you know, you when you think about like an um an unhealthy Enneagram eight, like blunt and aggressive is like mean and um like unkind or like whatever. And I would, I was like, that's not me. And she's like, yeah, no, that's you. And it wasn't in a negative way, like um, it's kind of like tell it like it is, you know, like that's how my attitude forward. Which another one of the on here it says, um, I don't like people who beat around the bush. And I don't like that. I also am not that way. Like, I'm not gonna beat around the bush. Um and so that's a really big pet peeve of mine, actually. Can you tell when people are beating around the bush? At work, this is um something that comes up a lot. Like I find myself having to have hard conversations because people around me won't. And I'm like, this is helping nobody. You know, like um, and and I realized a couple years ago probably that that was a skill that I had, and it wasn't necessarily like well, it's a personality trait, but it is helpful in work. Totally. And not everybody has that. Like it's they don't feel that way. Cause I'm like, the truth is always helpful. And um, and I think because feelings are involved, it changes, you know, it's like not everybody feels that way. If that makes sense. Um, another one I would say um is number 17. I know I'm respected, but sometimes I want to be loved. And I maybe this is like just part of who I am, but I just assume people like do like me. Like, I I think I read that one and I was like, I don't know. And my friend Jamie was like, you know, people are kind of scared of you. And I was like, what? I'm like, you're kidding me. And that was a surprise to me. But then I started to think about it. And since then, um, so many people I, you know, I lead a team in the summer, sometimes of up to 300 people. And so many times people will say to me, like, when I first met you, I was scared of you. And now I realize you're not scary, kind of thing, or whatever. And I'm like, Oh, I didn't know that was like the aura I put off. I thought I put off this like fun, like tralala. Um, and that wasn't true. And then um, the last one would be number 20 says, Under my tough exterior exterior is a tender, loving heart. And I was like, I don't think I have a tough exterior. I'm like, I cry. You know this at least. Like, I'll cry at the top of the hat. I'm like, we prayed before we started this thing, and I was like getting to choked up. Like, yeah, like, oh. Um, but I I think that that is how I know of myself internally and not necessarily how I look externally, if that makes sense. Yes. And so as I started to realize, oh, this is um how people see me, I was like, oh, I'm definitely an eight. And that was it. It was like it made, yeah, it made sense to me. And in that moment, it's like, you know, especially if you've been talking about the Enneagram, because probably for four years, I thought I was a seven. I was like, I think I'm having an identity crisis. Totally. Like kind of silly.
SPEAKER_00:I thought I was this and now I'm not.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And the vice of the, you'll have to help me with this. The vice of the seven is um gluttony. Right. And then the vice of the eight is lust, which actually can look really similar. If that makes sense. Like gluttony is like the desire for more, more and more and more. And lust is also the desire for more intensity. And so sometimes it looks the same. Like when you read about a seven, they'll say, like, they'll go to the grocery store and get one of every type of soda because they want to make sure they have like whatever. Right. And that, and I do that kind of thing too. And some of it is like because I wanna, it's fun, you know, but also because I think it's like this could be the best. It's like the intensity behind that as opposed to like, well, if you just had one flavor, it's not like the best. And so it was like things that I thought were true about the seven that when you just like kind of turn the angle a little bit, I was like, oh, that is actually more true of me as an eight, but it kind of looked like that. So I think the seven and eight are in an interesting, like yeah, when with can be close.
SPEAKER_00:With the vice, like sometimes they call the lust for the eight, they call it excess. Okay. And like that, even the excess and the gluttony, like those both are very similar to each other. Um, it's it's so funny that you I mean, you got to discover this while living with your sister and just thinking that you were the same type for so long, but because a lot of your external presentation was similar and your lifestyle was similar. Um I'll say I want to comment on a personal note about um a couple things you were saying with this list is okay, this is like the way that you present to other people. Like I experience you as highly, highly confident, very confident. And I think that is very common for AIDS to just, I mean, they just truly don't care that much about what other people are gonna think or say. And there's like a confidence in who they are. Um And uh t tell me this, Katie. Uh, because I've from what I've heard and and what I've learned, eights are one of the numbers that typically experience the least amount of anxiety. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, how do you experience anxiety much? Um, no, I don't. Um, as I laughed when you said that because I have a good friend who will like say to me all the time, she's like, There's sometimes nothing going on in your head. And I'm like, yeah, like a lot. There's not. And I'm like, because there's nothing, I don't know. I would say I'm not a very anxious person. Like, I don't um it's I guess as somebody who maybe just hasn't experienced a lot of like anxiety, it's or anxiousness, it's hard to compare. Sure. But from what I see in other people, I would say that's true.
SPEAKER_00:Man, okay, so that was a really great intro, and that's how you discover that you are an eight.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, I can comment on one other thing. Maybe um oh, we'll talk maybe about the gut triad later, but the other thing that um helped me realize, I think maybe at the beginning when I was like, oh, I think it might not be a seven, because sevens are in the head triad. Oh, yes. Because they're thinkers. I will make decisions every time on my gut. Um, my gut is what drives me. And at work, like with this just happened this week, but there was a really big decision that we were trying to figure out. And um, I knew from the very beginning what it was gonna be. Like in my gut, I knew. Oh my goodness. And we still had to do the whole process of like figuring out and doing due diligence and like getting there. And it's it's kind of interesting because like at the end, I was like, I knew we were gonna get here, but I didn't know the why. And sometimes I get myself in trouble because you have to know the why. Like you still have to be able to do the thinking sometimes to get there or like whatever. But um, I would say I have a really strong intuition, like in my gut. It's not always right, but I think often it is. And I think that for an eight, sometimes that does give them a maybe sometimes even a false sense of confidence. But like it comes from like you kind of have this like gut feeling, I guess. I don't know how else to explain it, but um, I think that speaks to me. Um, and then like in my spiritual walk with God, I would say the Holy Spirit shows up for me in my gut. Like that's when I know, like if I have a like, if I'm like praying or I'm like waiting on something, like it will be in this like gut feeling that I'm like, oh, this is like where God is either convicting me or where like he's nudging me or those kind of things. And so just comparatively, since we've been talking about Emily, like in the thinking triad, for her, it's in her, it's in her time of thinking, it's in her mind. And she's like a a real deep thinker. And for me, it's like um it's really polar opposite. And so it's um, I don't think I would have known that if I hadn't been so close to someone who was a thinker. Because I'm like, I, you know, like know how to think, but it's not how I will make decisions or the way that um things naturally come. It's like when I know, I know instantly, as opposed to like there's not always this like wrestle.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm in the gut triad too as a type one. And honestly, it it was a difficult thing for me to figure out like what does that even mean, being a gut instinct person? It it's a little harder, I think, to describe than the head triad or the heart triad. Um, would you say it was pretty easy for you you to identify? Oh, yeah, gut instincts is my first. And like, how can you tell?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay, that's a good question. Um I think so maybe just I'll use an anecdotal thing. So um my mom, we're here for wedding week, and she's like, I can't wait for you to get here. She's like, we have decisions that need to be made. That's how she said it.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm like, oh she knows you're gonna be good for that process.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Exactly. She's like, you don't think about it, you just like we'll decide. Okay. And so I would say that like there's like this, like other people notice it's different. Okay. Um and so again, like it's hard to compare yourself when you don't know. Like, what is it like to be a thinker? What is it like to be um from the heart triad? But other people will tell you, you know, like, are you quick at making decisions? Um, well, and that's interesting for a nine. So um, because my husband's a nine, so they're also in the gut triad. And so it might be like you know, but it's hard, it it can be hard for you to actually then get there, you know, or like to make that decision because you don't want to break the piece or like whatever. But um, so that's interesting. Maybe I'm just discovering that as we're talking. Like it's not only for me that like I have a gut feeling and I can just like make decisions quickly. I'm not thinking about it, like I'm not um anxious around it. Whereas somebody else, like um somebody like my husband who's in the nine, is a in the gut triad, might know, but still have a hard time getting there or like accepting or like wrapping their head around the impact of what that decision might be for other people. I guess I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Sure, you're allowed here, but and you're like gut gut instinct, I I know what it is, I know the decision, and then I take action. And like for someone like a nine, it's a harder, harder to get to the place of taking action.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah, that's right. That would be it. That's great. Yeah. So I think just anecdotally, other people would like if you're trying to figure out what Enneagram type am I, like ask other people, like, how do I, you know, like what does that look like? Um but yeah, and then as people talk about like their decision making process, maybe is an easy way to think about it. Like, what is your decision-making process? Like, I mean, a really good example is like I knew where I wanted to go to college when I was like eight. I had a camp counselor who went to Taylor University, and I was like, oh, I'm going to Taylor University. And from then on, I was going to Taylor. It was like decision made, done, didn't apply to another school. So there's just like, I don't know. I I think it just shows up um in lots of parts of my life, I guess. And then as you're trying to figure it out, like, what does that look like? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's great. I love all the examples you're sharing. This is this is really helpful describing the eight. Okay, let's talk uh more specifically about the core desire. So I'm I'm bringing it back to you listeners. Listen, the core desire and the core fear is the most important thing about each Enigram type, okay? Because they are driving all of the decision making, the behavior, the presentation, all the things that we're talking about here, they're all being driven by the core fear and the core desire. So if you're confused about your type, you gotta go back to those. So when we look at Ennegram 8, the core desire, protect themselves and protect their inner circle and to be in control of their own life. So what's that like for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a really great question. Um I I think for me, it's um like the ability to make my own decision um or to to decide for myself what I'm gonna do matters a lot. Um I was trying to think of a couple examples. Like the first time um I was buying a house, I was a single 24-year-old. Um, and I was like going to a lot of, I had visited a lot of different houses, and I was single at the time. So my parents were helping me. And I remember at one point my mom had said something about like a suggestion. And she goes, You get to make the decision. I'm just trying to help you. And that was like such good freedom for me because it had it was starting to feel like pressure, and that will make you do some dumb things. It'll make you like dig your heels in. Um, and and once I knew I was an Enneagram eight and you start to learn about it, I'm like, oh, I can see all of the ways that I made dumb decisions because I somebody told me to do something or somebody suggested something. And I so badly wanted to make my own decision. And so if I did what they said to do, it wasn't me making the decision, it was them. And so kudos to my mother because she I think probably knew that about me and learned at a young age that um it it like I needed to have autonomy to make my own decision. But and so when you are giving suggestions, it's like a suggestion, not like a do this kind of thing. Um and so yeah, the controlling thing, I think it's like um, yeah, it's about can I can I do what I want or can I make a decision? So like um my first house then. So I get the house and I'm like, I'm painting my front door purple. You'll remember this a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:I remember this front door, I remember it very well. And so many people were like, you can't do that. I'm like, yes, I can. I can and I will.
SPEAKER_01:I can and I am, and watch this, yeah. And so um it's just like a I'm also kind of a get it done kind of girl. So like I'm gonna make a decision and I'm gonna act quickly on it. I'm gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm yeah, the action. I remember I was a campus life student in high school, and I would, you know, Katie would host us for you would host us for for campus life in the morning or whatever. And I always loved your house, how it looked, because it was the bold, bright colors everywhere, and just the like um uh like everything about the design was almost like to make an impact. Totally.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's about boldness, yeah. Like um, it's not gonna be boring, that's for sure. That's right. I'm not gonna live a boring life. Uh yeah, I think the core desire. Yeah, I don't, it's um the desire, the fear is probably more easy for me to talk about, like not wanting to be controlled than it is like the desire.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, can you read that fear again and then we can just go to that?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, yeah. So the core fear is um to not want to be controlled, to be weak, powerless, or betrayed. Yeah. Um and that's a okay, that's a the betrayed one is a big deal. Um, because I would say I generally have high trust for people, like um until it's broken and then there's like no trust. Um, and so rebuilding trust is a hard thing for me. Um and that takes like honestly the work of the Lord in a lot of ways to be able to like build that back up because um because I have high trust for people, and then it's like once it's gone, it's like, oh, there's like no trust. Um, so there's not a lot of like you have to build this up. It's like you're gonna start high and I hope that you stay there kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Um you're kind of like generous with offering your trust in the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that I think that's true. Um and yeah, to protect the inner circle, I've seen this come to fruition actually in my marriage, which has been like really interesting because um I would say like with my family and my close friends, I've always been like highly protective. Um and it but it's different when it's like your friends, you know, it's like you're not like living life like side by side with them constantly. Um, and with my husband, it's been like like it has to do with the the tender inside, I think. Like when th something feels threatening to him, and we've we've talked through a couple of situations, but it to me, I'm I feel that real deep. And and I'm like, we're fixing this. Um and one of the things I read, oh yeah, it was in this list of 22 that stuck out to me. It was like, um, in relationships, I insist on being honest about conflicts and staying in the fight until things are worked out. And it's like like this can get worked out, and we're gonna stay here until we work it out. Um has been, I haven't, I think I didn't really see that um as much until I was married. Because um this maybe goes to the anxiety thing, but there like I I think I do have really thick skin, like things don't bother me that much. Like, okay, like okay. And so there haven't been a ton of things um that I've had to really fight for. Um because either if like I've lost trust of somebody or it it like it has um something has bothered me, it doesn't bother me that much, and I just kind of like can move on. I'm trying to uh figure out if this makes sense. But so like with um Emily was my closest relationship before I got married. Okay, and we just like were thick as thieves, and things didn't really like we knew each other so well, there wasn't a ton of conflict.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, sure.
SPEAKER_01:And I think we just like understood each other and we were going. And so I I didn't really experience a ton of conflict until I got married. And like it's and there hasn't been bad, it's all been like good, but because I things don't bother me that much. And because when things did bother me, I just walked away. I like there wasn't uh I guess if that I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:I'm trying to think if that's like actually true, but I think it is like the relationship wouldn't have been so important that it was worth it to put the time into fighting to resolve a conflict.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I I can't even think of like a relationship that I'm talking about, but really things just like didn't bother me that much. I just didn't let it bother me. Well, then you're in a marriage and it's like 24-7 like together and it's like the best ever. Like it's we've been loving it so much, and also um, we're having to learn how to like work through some conflicts because I'm like, this is forever. We're gonna like let's build a life that we both want to be in this forever together. And so as a nine, I think it's been intense for him because he's there have been moments where he's like, let's just keep the peace. And I'm like, no, let's make this right. Yeah, let's make this right. And um, and I'm like, we're not leaving here until it feels right.
SPEAKER_00:That's really interesting. The let's keep the peace versus let's make this right. And I think those two can look and and feel really similar, especially in a relationship. But yeah, but what a distinction on how you move forward with like one of those paths.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That has to do with clarity and communication, I think. Um, and we've we've learned how to say to each other, like, okay, are you good? And then sometimes it's the next day, like, are we good about The decision that was made, or do we check it? Do we check back in on it? And we'll spend time praying together and separately. And like, do we feel like we are on the same page or did we just try to keep the peace?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and and will this rear its ugly head again? And sometimes it does. It will like come back and we're like, oh, that wasn't figured out. And sometimes it's because we're just practicing. We don't know. Like we're the, you know, we're like, we've never done this before. And some of it is because we weren't able to be as honest as we can. And so for me, I'm gonna be as honest as I know how to be from the very beginning. And for my husband, he is his natural inclination would be to try to keep the peace a little bit more and not to be dishonest, but um to think about his own feelings before he shares them, where I'm just like, here it is, real raw right now, you know, kind of thing. So um I don't know if that answered your question, but that's some interaction of a nine and an eight right there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, not wanting to be controlled. And um, oh, so maybe this is where I was trying to go at the beginning, but I realized um, you know, I was 36 when I got married. So I had been single and I had been up like um a supervisor boss at work for a long time. And so going from that lifestyle of like make my own decisions all the time, leading people, yeah, totally being in charge to now building a partnership with somebody um who has a really different personality. Um I had to really check myself and like, am I trying to be controlling here? And that's probably a daily prayer of mine. I'm like, in this situation, am I trying to um control this or am I allowing a God to work and B for my husband to make decisions that um that he also needs to be able to make? And um so it's all a learning journey, but I feel like that's those are kind of the the ways that that for me has come out.
SPEAKER_00:Uh there's something I relate to with this. Um also I think it's like a gut triad thing, but the I mean, the control thing, like this is an issue for AIDS and ones. We both struggle with uh wanting control. Um but yeah, I think like the space for another person to make their own decisions is important to remember because I will, you know, it maybe immediately see how you can fix X, Y, and Z, or I'll immediately know what you need to do to get better, or I'll immediately know like the next step that you should take to whatever, to I don't know, in anything. But anyways, um, but not like resisting that urge to just like tell the other person, whether it's my husband or whether it's a friend, like uh you need to do this and do it this way, and that's how we're all gonna be better. Yeah. And everybody isn't, you know, seeing through the world through the lens of trying to get better all the time. Yeah. Um, but yeah, but I also think it's the that that um desire for control is like really a root of all that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay. So so funny, you made me think of a story because our natural reaction as a gut triad is to know and want to tell, right? Yes. And then for me, though, the way I want to be treated, and my sister has an excellent example of this, I'm gonna share right now, is that that's not how I want to be treated at all. Right. Like I don't want someone to tell me what to do.
SPEAKER_00:I don't either, actually. Yeah, exactly. Right.
SPEAKER_01:We want to tell other people, but we don't want to be treated that way. Totally. And so um, if we can put ourselves into other people's um shoes, that helps. But um, this is just a really classic example. So um, you guys might know the uh show Hamilton. I'm obsessed with Hamilton. But when it first came out, Emily was obsessed. My sister was obsessed with it, and she was like, Katie, you would love this. And I was like, nah, I don't like that. Like, why? Because she told me I would like it. I was just like, nah. And so for two years, I never listened to it. And then um one day I was like having a hard day. Um, and I was driving up to Michigan. I had was living there at the time, and I listened to the whole soundtrack in the car. And I sobbed. I mean, it's so good. It was like, and then I became like instantly obsessed. And I told my sister later, she's like, Yeah, I knew that. And she's like, I just didn't approach it in the right way, apparently. And I was like dying laughing. I'm like, oh, that's so it. It's like for some reason, there is something in me that is naturally against when people say you will like this or you will, or you should do this, or like whatever it is. And so I've had to check myself on that because I'm like, oh, I missed out on something good because I was being a brat. You know, or like because I just had this now, I had this natural against. And um yeah, at work, I see this some a lot of times too. Like if someone else has a real like a good idea, for some reason, naturally, immediately I'm like against. It's like this pushback. And um, and so as like I have matured, I've had to realize how to check that. And I'm like, how weird that that's like a part of like probably just my sinful nature of like how sin enters our hearts and minds, but um, that part of my personality is to be just naturally against. And like, yeah, um, I think fours feel that way too. Like they don't want to be just like everybody else. Like there's this natural, like, oh, I want to be different. I think eights feel that a little bit too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like, don't want to be just like the way it's supposed to be. Um, like I can paint my front door purple if I want. Absolutely. You know, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:I actually find not not all fours and not all eights, but some fours and eights actually on the outside look a lot like each other. I believe that. Um, pretty interesting. Um, it are the rumors true, Katie. Is it are the rumors true that you have included part of Hamilton in your wedding toast for your sister's wedding this weekend?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, at least you're the one person that knows about this. Uh, I have put together a little um compilation of songs because I'm afraid I'm gonna sob as I give my Maid of Honor speech. And so we'll start out with a little Hamilton. It'll make its way back around.
SPEAKER_00:You're channeling uh all the emotions into uh high energy and humor.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. So you don't cry. People can laugh at me and then I won't hopefully won't cry.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's awesome. So the next topic on the list is about being in the gut triad. We've already talked about that quite a bit. Is there anything else you want to add? Um, what it's like?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think, yeah, the um, I guess I would just highlight what I said earlier about um like being in the gut triad. It's like really good to figure out why you feel that why that gut feeling comes. Because I think the the natural inclination is to be like, well, I already know, or like this is right, period. And to know the why is actually really helpful. Um and um just to like not get too spiritual, I guess, on you, but I just think like in my own walk with Jesus, like why, while that's where like the Holy Spirit will show up for me is in the gut, that's also where Satan will attack, is like um in ideas or something like um, like if it doesn't like you'll get like kind of a feeling, and then it's like, okay, wait, I need to check that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Was that from the Lord or was that not? And um, and so you can get in your own head sometimes about like getting cocky or like being like, I already knew that, you know, or whatever. And um, and I think that like through prayer and and seeking like the why, you know, like this thing at work. Like I was like, yeah, I already knew where how I was gonna end up from the very beginning, but knowing the why behind it will make me a better leader and help me um help me to explain to people who need to know the why, the why behind it, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And then also, you know, sitting through whatever three hours of conversations about it, even though at the beginning of those three hours you knew, it's also um, it's also helping you understand other people's feelings and where the other people are at with that. Um, which can be helpful because you know, sometimes eights can skip over the the people factor if they just know what it should be.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And like thank God we don't have a world of all eights because I would not want to be there. So it's really bad. Um, and so we there, yeah, you have to just be respectful of like how other people think and feel and understand too.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so speaking of people, the next topic on the list is about relationships. So, Katie, what are some of your top values and relationships? And then if you can tie those in, how do those values connect with your Ennegram type 8?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm a mega people person. Um, if you know strength finders at all, all of my um strengths except one of my top five land in the influencing. So I love um people, I like inviting people in to do things. I think one of my cautions um as I've gotten older is because people can be scared of me, um, it can feel like manipulation sometimes. Like an invitation can feel like manipulation. Oh, like at work. Um, I've seen that sometimes where I'll be like, oh, would you help me with this? And they feel like, oh, I have to do this. And I'm like, oh no, you did it.
SPEAKER_00:Like Can you sense people's reaction sometimes?
SPEAKER_01:Not always. No. And I think that's part of the problem is I I see it as an invitation.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And they feel it as an expectation.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Especially because you're the boss. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Or even just like in front, I mean, work right now is probably my easiest example, but even in like friendships, um, I have seen this like play out in some ways where um, or I don't know, just like in everyday relationships, or like I used to leave, like I led volunteers at Youth for Christ. And so people are like giving up their time, but and um being really kind and generous. And so I think that is like a power thing that I've had to recognize, like, oh, because and like what you said at the beginning, like because inherently I have maybe more confidence than some people that it comes up can come across as like um overpowering or like you're trying to manipulate me. And I don't ever want to be that way. And so um, but I so I think I've had to learn like how to manage some of that. Um while also like recognizing that like the Lord has given me the gift of being able to like rally people to do awesome things. Yeah. And so um, even as silly as like, you know, making fun extra pieces for like Emily's Bachelorette party, or like you know what I mean? It's like you can get a lot of people to lean in. Um, but it's making sure they know it's like an invitation and not like an expectation. Yeah. Do you have any other values to go along with that? Yeah, I would say trust is a high value. Um, like I'm a verbal processor, so like time with my people and like um talking through things is helpful. Um, and then uh I have learned that with other eights, this is true too. Because we value intensity, or maybe value isn't the word, but like seek it. Yes. And I think it's like it's been it's interesting because um it is the vice of lust is intensity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so when it when you I think part of my adult journey is trying to figure out like how much is good and how much is not, because part of intensity is my personality. Yeah. It's like what I love. Like I like it makes me good at my job. I can do really intense days and like I can come out and be like, that was fun. You know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And also when um you desire intensity, it can create a really unhealthy lifestyle and like and it doesn't always feel like a safe place for other people to be there and like all this stuff. And so um I've okay, so going back to what I value in relationships is like I'll always prefer to be doing something as opposed to just sitting. But other people value just sitting sometimes. And so it's like, um, oh, like with Emily, sometimes we'll be like, is this a you day or is this a me day? Or is this like, is this more for you or is this more for me? Because we would prefer to do things differently. Like, I would rather like go have a deep conversation playing pickleball. And like Emily would rather play pickleball and then go sit on the couch and talk. And um, or like um, my husband and I right now are training for a hundred mile bike race. What? It's like really intense. And this has been one of the greatest gifts for us because he's super active. Um, and for me, it's gonna be like the hardest thing I've ever done. And for him, he's kind of like, this is fun. And I love the intensity of that. And so we have learned, yes, the challenge of it. I'm like, oh, this is so good for us. Like, if you can challenge me in this, like this is gonna be fun for us. And so our favorite memories right now are like at mile 50 on a bike ride, like you know, stopping to eat cool snacks and a Diet Coke or whatever. So um, I value yeah, like doing hard things, I guess. I don't know. Well, cool. Come join me in that, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love you. I love how you talk about you, you you can do a deep conversation, but let's do it yeah. Let's do it in our bodies, like let's be active or be like uh working on a project in your house or playing a sport. And that goes to part of I don't think I've said this term yet, this episode, but the gut triad, another word for that is body types. So the gut instincts are all about being like very embodied um types. Yeah. So you're like, I want to be, I want to be in my body along with this deep conversation, which is which is um a lot of heart and a lot of head if you're having a deep conversation. So you're like bringing in kind of all three things body, heart, and head.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Cause another way that that comes out for me is like if I'm feeling angsty, like, oh, I gotta work something out, I'm gonna go for a run, I'm gonna go to the boxing gym, like I'm gonna go move my body and not just in like a walk. Like I gotta like, my heart rate's gotta get pumping, and I gotta like, um, in order, like, in order for my brain to do good hard work, and my body needs to be moving. And that's funny. I guess I never really put that together in like how that would be a part of the gut triad, but that has always been true for me. It's like, I'll do my best work after, you know, a long run or something like that. Oh, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so we're getting to the end of this episode, but now we get to talk about nicknames. So from around the internet and around the Enniegram books, I have compiled the most common nicknames for Enniegram 8. And I'm gonna read them and tell me which one you like the most. Okay, I love it. So here's some of the nicknames: the boss, the fighter, the controller, the protector, the defender.
SPEAKER_01:So at my bachelorette party, like a year ago, um, my sister had hats made for all of us. And mine said, I'm the boss, and everybody else said boss babe or something. I can't remember. But um, I think that's one I relate to a lot. Um, even as a kid, was like called bossy. And um in my professional life, I am a boss right now. But um I kind of love it. You know, it's like it's funny. You're like, uh, should I like that I've called that? And it's like, oh, I don't know. It's kind of fun. When you're a really good boss, it's like you're the best. Um, you are a protector, you are a um, like you make you pave a way. Um, and somebody spoke me that, spoke that over me actually a couple years ago of like, if you look behind you, you've paved the way for a lot of people to be able to do um do things, whatever it was, you know, about and I've seen that be true in a couple ways. And that feels like a high um, oh, what's the word? Like um it's a tall order. It's like, or it's like a high responsibility. High responsibility, yeah. That's what I was trying to say. Like I'm like, oh, okay, so like what I do can have impact on the people behind me, positive or negative.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and not behind me. Like, it's like, you know, when one person does something really brave and other people are like, oh, I could do that brave thing too.
SPEAKER_00:I can do that too, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I have seen that be true in um in my life in some ways. And and that might sound cocky, but I really think it's actually like um it's just a way that God has designed me, and it comes with some serious fault, like hard pieces to it too. But there's been um some cool joy in that too, to be like, oh, like in the same way that like I have followed in the footsteps of some other really strong females, um, I can help pave the way for some people behind me too, which is kind of cool.
SPEAKER_00:There's this analogy from Beth McCord over at Your Enneagram Coach. Oh, okay. And she says that Enneagram eights, you know, they could be like bulldozers where they're just moving forward, running over anything in their path, or they can be like snowplows and they're plowing the road so that it's clear for the people behind them.
SPEAKER_01:Cool. That's a really cool example. And I could probably give you some examples of when I have absolutely been a bulldozer and when I have been maybe hopefully a snowplow. That's cool. I like that. That's good.
SPEAKER_00:So you referenced the book, The Road Back to You, by Ian Cron earlier in this conversation. Um, again, love this book because it's a really uh easy to understand introduction to all the Ennegram numbers. So I will always recommend this book to people who are new to the Enneagram. If you're trying to figure out your number, check the book out from the library, or you can listen to it on audiobook. But like Katie said, there's this list um that says what it's like to be an eight. Um and Katie, you've already read uh some of these, which is awesome. I love that you incorporated that into the conversation. So I'm just gonna read uh a 10 of these. And as always, if you there's 20. If you want to hear the other 10, you gotta get the book. It's a good one. Um okay, so here's some of Ian Kron's characteristics of what it's like to be an eight. I've been told that I'm too blunt and aggressive. Doing things halfway is not my spiritual gift.
SPEAKER_01:Amen.
SPEAKER_00:I can relate to that one. I enjoy a good verbal skirmish just to see what others are made of. In relationships that matter to me, I insist on being honest about conflicts and staying in the fight till things are worked out. Yeah, you talked about that one earlier. It's hard for me to trust people. Justice is worth fighting for. I can sniff out other people's weakness the first time I meet them. Katie's nodding about that one. Saying no isn't a problem for me. I welcome opposition. Bring it. I make decisions fast and from the gut. You want to point out any of those other ones?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, um, if all 20 were like 100% yes, uh, we would we would all look like each other and we don't, which is so it's like you're never gonna have all 20. Exactly. Um, but yeah, I think that you can read how the gut plays into so much of this. It's like the justice piece is about knowing right and wrong. Um, and like sniffing out other people's weaknesses is a funny one for me because I'm like unhealthy eights will use that to be a jerk. And uh healthy eights will use that to um help people thrive in even with their weaknesses, like um where you can step in. Um I'm at work, I'm on a team of um five people right now, and we all are really different. Um, and it's been so cool to like see how we have learned how to um like carry each other's weaknesses in a lot of ways. And um, for an aide to be able to recognize what their weaknesses are is super helpful in their health journey because I think there is on the outside, it can come across a lot, like like a confident person or like there's not a ton of um weakness. And I have found when I'm like open and honest about way weakness, people are like so pumped about coming in and helping and like coming alongside. Um, like I have an um an administrative assistant right now, and it has changed my life in the best way possible. I'm like, oh, uh and I'm like, you like she makes me so much better um in ways I didn't even know could be, you know? And um I'm like this is what it's like when people work together and help cover each other's weaknesses. And like, um, it's not to say that one is better than the other either. I'm like, we're a partnership in this together, like making it making things better. And so um I think that I just would give caution to that one. Like if you are an eight and you can sniff other people's weaknesses, like that is also a high responsibility, like what you're gonna do with that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's again, it could be the bulldozer snowplow kind of situation. Yeah. Um, I really appreciate how how transparent you've been with sharing a lot. I think like the the description you've given of type eight is robust and rich, and I just um have loved hearing what you have to say, and I hope that this episode can also help some people um understand the eights in their lives.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. I want to speak on that. First of all, thank you so much for letting me come on here. This is just chatting.
SPEAKER_00:I've I've been wanting to do a podcast with you like since I started this podcast journey.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome. Okay, so the interesting thing about an eight too is um because they don't, their greatest fear is to be controlled. Yes. Um, to be able to be honest and vulnerable is really tough for an eight in general because it's like once somebody knows something about me, they now can control me. If that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:They can use it against me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, especially a weakness or a vulnerability. Like, um, and I have learned that it's it's always worth it, even though it like um it can be really scary. Like it is. Um, it's funny. I like the way you just said that, I was like, oh, a couple of years ago, I could have never said some of these things actually, because I think it was like, oh, people are gonna know that about me and it's gonna make me put me in a vulnerable position. And vulnerability is so hard. You know, like uh that's probably the been the toughest part of marriage for me. It's like there's no putting up an exterior, like there's no putting up like a facade. It is, it is what you get. And so there's a real vulnerability there. Um, and so anyway, thank you for saying that. That feels like such a kindness to me because that's like not naturally who I want to, who I always want to be, but it is who I want to be when I'm on when I'm thinking about things on purpose, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. I just love you. I love you too. What a joy. Um, is there anything that you uh is there anything you want to give as far as where listeners can connect with you more or if they want to reach out, have a conversation?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's great. I'm not big on social media. Um it's kind of one of the things that has fallen away when life gets a little bit busy. But um I don't know if you want to put like an email or something, link an email in the thing or whatever. That might be the easiest way if people want to connect or something like that. Or if there's some Enneagram AI female who's listening to this, it's like I I need to I need to have some talks with Katie. Yes, female eights are um I my boss is a female eight, which has been such a treat for me um to get to see how this can happen. And um there's not a lot of female eights um that I think are super healthy. I guess I think there are a lot of female eights, but um and I guess I'm not calling myself healthy necessarily, but like on a journey of like trying to trying to honor the Lord um the best with how he created me and knowing that we also are sinful. And so like he's always working on us. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks so much for everything you shared, Katie. Yes, what a treat. Over and out. Woohoo.
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