The Tech Glow Up - Fabulous conversations with innovative minds.

Why English Majors Will Win The AI Era. Caitlin Lacey's Journey From Facebook Ad Review To Global Product Stages

• Nathan C Bowser • Season 2 • Episode 9

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Caitlin Lacey was supposed to teach Shakespeare to high school sophomores. Instead, she started at Facebook in 2010 answering ad review tickets; a move that turned into a decade shaping how billions of people connect online. 

Now as Director of Global Product Marketing at Cisco, Webex, she oversees the WebEx collaboration suite and the hardware business that powers conference rooms, airports, and enterprise spaces around the world.

Her career has been defined by one principle: get out of the group chat and into the real world. Whether she was dogfooding early Facebook features or launching immersive collaboration tools at Cisco, Caitlin approaches technology through the lens of human connection and storytelling. S


Episode Highlights:

  • Curiosity took her from answering ad review tickets to leading global product strategy, shaped by dogfooding products with her own family and learning how humans actually want to connect.
  • Cisco Spatial Meetings lets design teams and city planners collaborate in real time within Apple Vision Pro, manipulating 3D models together and laying the foundation for when immersive collaboration becomes standard.
  • Getting global alignment across teams in different time zones is the hardest part of her job, and she'd use a magic wand to get everyone in one room for 30 minutes to align on the market story.
  • A CMO threw her on stage to demo a product two months after she started at Cisco, and that bet on her potential changed her trajectory and shaped how she now looks for sparks in her team.
  • AI isn't going anywhere, but the humanity behind it is taking center stage, which means English degrees are about to become more valuable than they were five years ago.

The best stories start from a place of curiosity. Caitlin learned this at Facebook, proved it at Meta with emerging tech, and now applies it every day at Cisco as she defines the future of workplace collaboration. 

Her path shows that the most valuable skill in tech isn't technical knowledge—it's the ability to understand what people need and tell them why it matters.

Watch the full conversation on YouTube to hear how Caitlin built her career by asking the right questions and believing in her team's potential.

About Caitlin Lacey

Caitlin is a product marketing leader with 15+ years of experience shaping go-to-market strategy across emerging technology, hardware, and collaboration software. 

She leads marketing for Cisco’s Employee Experience portfolio, spanning devices and software that power hybrid work. 

Known for building high-performing teams and crafting narratives that drive adoption, she brings a sharp focus on business impact and human connection.

A "glow up" signifies a positive transformation, reflecting the journey of becoming a better, more successful version of oneself.

At The Tech Glow Up, we humanize the startup and innovation landscape by focusing on the essential aspects of the entrepreneurial journey. Groundbreaking ideas are often ahead of their time, making resilience and perseverance vital for founders and product leaders.

In our podcast, we engage with innovators to discuss their transformative ideas, the challenges they face, and how they create value for future success.

If you're a founder or product leader seeking your own glow up, or a seasoned entrepreneur with stories to share, we invite you to join our guest list via this link.

Nathan C:

Hey y'all. It's Nathan C, host of the Tech Glow Up. I'm so excited to share this interview with Caitlin Lacey, Director of Global Product Marketing at Cisco. She specifically owns some of the really interesting tech that Cisco is using in the Apple Vision Pro for their Spatial Meetings and Collaboration tools. This is a really cool episode. Caitlin will take you from her early beginnings, managing ads all the way to the main stage interest producing some of Cisco's newest innovations at their biggest customer. Events worldwide. Lots of great learnings for anybody trying to market innovative technologies, and a really inspiring story. Of a badass woman's career path in Silicon Valley technology and how she uses a focus on the customer and the story to build focus and direction for her teams and the products she supports. It's a true honor to have Caitlin Lacey on the Tech Glow Up. I hope you enjoy it.

Caitlin Lacey:

One thing from a product marketing perspective is, is curiosity. Like every great product marketer that I know is just curious by nature, and that is what has led them to this kind of complicated role. And so for me that would be the one takeaway for folks is. Be curious, and have curiosity in your own roles because it actually makes you a better leader.

Nathan C:

Hello and welcome to the Tech Glow Up. I'm Nathan C, and today I am thrilled to be talking with Caitlin Lacey, director of Global Product Marketing at Cisco. Caitlin, it is so great to see you. Thanks for joining me on the Tech Glow Up.

Caitlin Lacey:

to see you. Yes. I'm excited to be here.

Nathan C:

well you've had a very busy year or so, can you, let us know a little bit about who you are and the work that you do in tech innovation.

Caitlin Lacey:

Yes, Caitlin Lacey. And I'm currently at Cisco, though, you know, we have met in years past through the, XR space. Our WebEx suite, which is our, collaboration portfolio that has meetings and messaging and calling all the things that you need to connect on a daily basis with both your customers and your employees. I also oversee our hardware business, so all of the collaboration devices that you might see in a conference room. Or you might see in an airport, many of our phones are actually like at gate agents in airports, And you'll start to notice all of these beautiful Cisco devices that are out there in the world that allow, businesses to stay connected, securely and easily. prior to Cisco, I was with a couple of startups that focused on augmented reality, and bringing that digital layer of information to the physical world. And that is how you and I met Nathan. And then I spent a long time at Meta, and Facebook is what I like to call it, many years there. Crisscrossing different roles and, products in the emerging space.

Nathan C:

was that intentional or, is that something that you maybe discovered along the way?

Caitlin Lacey:

You know, I have always been a connector in my personal life. I am a person who always makes sure that we get out of the group chat and we get into the real world,

Nathan C:

Hmm. And, was technology always the thing that you were passionate about? I'm curious what got you started in working with, deep innovative technologies and ideas of remote connection, presence,

Caitlin Lacey:

I was supposed to be a high school English teacher. I was always gonna teach sophomores in high school about Shakespeare and literature. But, I happened into a job at Facebook in its early days. I started there originally in 2010, doing, ad review and advertiser questions, answering them with canned responses. but Facebook, you know, as it grew, there were just so many opportunities to lean into solving problems that maybe you didn't know existed yet. I am a curious person by nature, and that curiosity took me from one project to another, Meta also had this aspiration to find new ways to connect people. you started seeing us play into, the early days of chatbots with Messenger and the early days of augmented reality with Spark AR. ultimately the metaverse, ran into the company name changing. I went from a learning capacity to a connecting capacity, that's, how I ended up here in this space.

Nathan C:

I have. Probably way too many questions For what it's like exploring, new problems to solve new modes of communication at Facebook in the teens. that environment was very much known for like moving quickly, breaking things, pushing limits as a go-to market leader, as somebody who's finding their voice in this space, how did you approach, problem solving and figuring out those answers, to those questions in such a fast paced tech environment, in the early teens, how did you make things happen, in a space like that?

Caitlin Lacey:

you know, I think we just were given that room to take risks. I think a lot of it in those days was also based on, we dogfooded all of our own products, right? Like we lived on facebook.com. and that became Facebook Workplace, which, you know, has now sunset, but it internally. Facebook was how we worked and messaged and connected with not only our coworkers, but with also our personal family and friends outside. so as someone who was using the product every day, we could make some assumptions about how we as users would want things to grow or change and the information that we were seeking when we were looking at something. And so I think a lot of that was, you know, co-conspirators, collaborators were each other cross-functionally. and then outside of that, you know, it was. Growing exponentially in the public space. And so if you said you worked at Facebook, I mean for the first thing was, whoa, I didn't know people worked at Facebook. That's amazing. There's actually humans there. And then the second one was, I want this feature, or it would be so cool if, or, I met my girlfriend, boyfriend, partner on Facebook And that is a whole other platform. People were excited to build with you. And so your customers were the people you were with every single day, whether it was personally or professionally. And so you could really riff very quickly. And at the time it was also just fail hard, fail fast, and fail hard and try. and so we were able to take some risks and I think the code was pretty flexible, so you could give somebody an idea and they'd run with it.

Nathan C:

Ooh, that's such a, I was kind of thinking about like the strategic age or the maturity of the company, but like even just the flexibility in youth of the code base of the platform, can be an enabler. I love how you set up like this early experience of getting things done, based in like this always on, like stream of insights from your users and your customers. Now you're like doing global product and hardware marketing at Cisco. You're like on stage introducing new features and visions. That's like a much more mature, it's a much different place, to be in. How do you, keep those roots, keep in touch with those consumers? keep the insights flowing now that, the scale and scope of things are, are so much bigger.

Caitlin Lacey:

Well, the great news is in this modern world, Everyone is using some kind of collaboration device, whether it's your laptop camera, your mobile phone. I have this beautiful Cisco Desk Pro series sitting in front of me, which has like high-end camera, high-end audio, And it actually makes you feel like you're right in front of me. Like we're sitting at a table having coffee versus, you know, across. I think having, again, that connection to something that people use every day allows me to kind of go into conversations, from a personal level first and build that trust and credibility to get the real feedback. and then on top of that, we, within the, the collaboration unit at Cisco. Are constantly on the road getting these devices in people's hands and these experiences in people's hands at these events, right? We just had our WebEx one. We're now doing all of those re delivers around the world. So we're taking this on the road, Cisco Live, Melbourne in Australia is happening next week. So we're just wrapping that up, all that content. And so we're actually going into the market and talking to our customers who are putting these experiences in their own organizations. Incredible analyst community. So at Cisco, they have built these relationships with these analysts who sit at the highest level and then educate customers who are in the buying process about, you know, this is what's great for this and this is what's great for this. And they really help keep us grounded in the customer challenges that maybe customers wouldn't think to bring to these events. and they keep us kind of informed of, well, this is the trend that we're seeing too across this industry. And you should really take that into consideration for as you're building your three five year roadmap. So that's kind of how we keep grounded, I think, in an everyday capacity.

Nathan C:

Oh, that layer. Of advisors who can help customers understand and get the value out of the product, but then are then also kind of a built in advocate. Their success is based on the use and adoption of the things that they're representing. And so that sort of dual, value transfer is like such a great partner, to have on that journey. Can you talk to, and, as general or as specific as you're able, instances where insights, where learning from your customers, either at these events or from these partnerships, has, caused you to, refocus or respond to either challenges or opportunities.

Caitlin Lacey:

I don't know about from the Cisco perspective, but for me, It is taking in the qualitative data from, a customer conversation or even just a personal conversation about a feature they love within a competitive product, and why don't we have it in our product? Or even brand perception conversations around like, oh, I didn't even know that was anymore. and helping kind of take those learnings and then applying, what I love, which is storytelling and reframing, and taking that into consideration, I think too, about. years ago at Facebook, before the rebrand to Meta, we were thinking about Augmented reality and virtual reality for business just no one could figure out why that mattered. You know, like it was, this was 20 16, 20 17, and, and, you know, the Oculus was for gaming and Spark AR I don't think had left its own little playground that was in. We hadn't even talked about AR ads yet. And it was a matter of getting people to see the potential and setting that vision of, wouldn't it be cool if you could put on a pair of glasses and live eyes up instead of in your phone? And at that level, you could then have the context you needed to know your favorite coffee shop is half a block that way and you should stop in and Oh, they've got this special, today is your favorite drink and it's on sale. that kind of vision and context I don't think people could really understand at that point in time.

Nathan C:

Ooh, what would make you care is like, that's a very big opening. That's a great invitation. You actually sent me back to a little bit of PTSD. Thinking about trying to talk about business cases for virtual reality in like 2016, right? Like, it was so far from where we felt like it could go. you mentioned at the top that you're working on these tools for collaboration, for presence, for continuing to kind of push. These boundaries of communication and connection. it's this interesting theme of like being early on introducing these new ideas, these modes of computing. first off, can you talk a little bit about, the specifics of the tools, for collaboration, that you're building, and then how are you approaching that storytelling, around these new modes and capabilities.

Caitlin Lacey:

Last year Cisco introduced spatial meetings, Ciscos Spatial Meetings, which is a immersive technology within the Apple Vision Pro headset within WebEx for Apple Vision Pro. it uses our dual Lens Room Bar Pro in a conference setting or in an office setting. The dual lens camera captures, what's in the room and it transfers it into the Apple Vision Pro. The cool demo we do is the measuring tape and the measuring tape feels like because of the camera and because of the Apple Vision Pro, like it's coming at you you can hold up a shoe and you can actually see kind of the curves and the texture in it, it's 4K color. It's just, an incredible experience. everybody was like, okay, but why? Why do we need that now? Maybe we don't. But you know what we're seeing, we're seeing design teams use it for faster, builds, and we're seeing learning and development teams use it for education in the classroom for remote education, which is only going to expand, right? These are just two use cases that are only going to expand. And then on top of that, there is something about being in a meeting and feeling like you're with people even though you're not, not sharing physical space. And then this year at WebEx one, we just introduced a level to this immersive experience, which is 3D collaboration models. you can upload a file within, a WebEx meeting, and then you can actually manipulate together in real time this 3D model in the immersive space. you and I were in our Vision Pro headsets, you could turn it and you can look at cities or models like we have an example of a cityscape where you can actually turn it for city planning. Today is that technology in everyone's hands? No, but we're laying the foundation of what is possible for the future when we actually have the compute and the consumer adoption for all of these kinds of immersive experiences. And I think it's those partnerships and that curiosity to just try and have something out there that really gets people thinking, Oh, again, what if and what do you care about?

Nathan C:

the curiosity, right? Like, Sparking curiosity in a busy executive that anything new is worth their time is like the golden question. And, so bravo for being focused there. and the value that you were actually speaking to, to me felt like a like. A dramatic improvement. If we go back to 2016, right to the spatial collaboration demo experience of like. You know, in the scenario that you described, you give an executive an Apple Vision Pro and ask them to log in to a tool that they use already and join a meeting on Cisco, and now they're able to engage, review. Collaborate on a specific thing, focus their attention, bring them into a very, right. So it feels like a fantastic improvement, right? Because in 2016 you were setting up boundaries. You were like rebooting things. You were plugging into a computer. You were teaching them how to use buttons on VR. And now you're like handing them tools they know in the context that they're familiar with. And it's starting to deliver on what are the jobs to be done that are in front of them. it feels to me almost like it is a more valuable solution and it fits the moment and the technology very well. And like, obviously your next challenge as a global is to figure out how to scale that to many The thing that I love about this next equation that you have, is that you have these hardware devices, you have these communications tools, you have this infrastructure already, and you're partnering with these teams already. So like adding capabilities, building new space for them to grow into, And so there's something so valuable about having that relationship and that connection

Caitlin Lacey:

And that's the magic, right? I mean, in immersive technology, especially like you think about when you're able to capture someone in a moment doing something they already know how to do, and then you add that whimsy and that magic, that is how you get adoption. I mean, you look at games like Pokemon Go, right? You already had. The character and the story, and then you've had the mobile device, and then you married them together and you added just simple gaming structure and you added the whimsy of physical world and digital world, and all of a sudden you had this insane up of something that is now, I mean, how many years on, I think, I think at 10 years. I think they celebrated the 10 year anniversary this year. It's immersive technology is there, but you have to put it in the context so you don't have to educate the user on top of showing the magic because that actually kills the magic.

Nathan C:

Let me explain a complex idea for you and then you can ride a rollercoaster.

Caitlin Lacey:

I was part of the team that was trying to market horizon work rooms, for Meta. And if you remember that you put on the headset and you had an avatar and you had these beautiful rooms and spaces and you could go and it did have the spatial audio. I remember sitting in this little box of an office I have and being able to talk to my friend Tamma that was, hundreds of miles away in New York. And it did feel like we were together, but We were still just avatars But Apple Vision Pro and what Cisco has delivered with spatial meetings is just one level deeper and one level that's just a little bit more, you know,

Nathan C:

and my assumption is right, like an executive that's likely to be in a Cisco meeting in a vision pro. Like probably wants to look at humans. we just had a fantastic conversation with XR women on the show, talking specifically about how avatar networking worked. Really great for them because it was an equalizer for these global events that they have. But for like an executive who is on a very specific call, like trying to get something done, you probably want the real, you know, as real as possible.

Caitlin Lacey:

Yeah, there's a time and a place for everything. Just like in a, personal and a professional network, right? Like, I'm a little bit dressed down today, it's Friday, I'm doing my casual Friday thing. But this isn't necessarily how I would show up, on an executive table read, so there is an element too, with Avatar to have a place in a time. for an executive conversation, you may wanna have, your persona there.

Nathan C:

that point alone I think could make a dramatic impact on the go to market approach. For a number of XR tools who are talking to enterprise,

Caitlin Lacey:

you go.

Nathan C:

Hey guys, consider the audience, Amazing. So, Caitlin, I need to get back to script. the name of the show is The Tech Glow Up and I use, the idea of a glow up or a Dramatic transformation to talk about goals. So I'm curious, what's the six month short term midterm goal that you're working on, in your work?

Caitlin Lacey:

So we just introduced this concept within my group of connected intelligence. And if you think about the world of AI it's AI everywhere, right? we opened a box of holiday lights for our house last night and there's an AI assistant within the app that if you tell it what colors and vibe you're going for, it will then talk to you about suggestions for what those could be, and then setting it, it's amazing. Like, it's just amazing what AI has infiltrated in our lives. But this idea of connected intelligence is All of these things should be in concert with each other. our goal within Cisco is to start to create that for the collaboration ecosystem and then also have that kind of go out into the other Cisco platforms there is this incredible infrastructure that has already been built that covers security and networking and observability, and then collaboration that sits on top of it to connect people. At the heart of that is this concept of, you know, we've manage the workplace of today with people to people, and that is a lot of what we've delivered through our WebEx suite and through our hardware devices, collaboration devices. now we're in this era of people to ai. And so we've got AI assistance and we've got AI agents, and we've got generative AI that's helping us do all these things faster, Is it actually moving us forward? And what are we losing in just giving everything over to ai, right? In that humanity piece that so many, I mean, there's so many conversations about that. And then there's the next step, which is AI to ai. for the next six months, we're really gonna start to explore what does connected intelligence mean for collaboration? Not only how are we delivering that with the tools that are in existence today, but how are we setting a vision for what we actually bring to market tomorrow? we're gonna be doing a lot of storytelling around that and kind of uplifting some of our products and showcasing not only what we've delivered, but what we're going to deliver. I'm really excited about it. this concept of connected intelligence and just bringing all these different ecosystems together, just, it lights so many things off in my brain. And I'm trying not to overwhelm my team with stories. I'm just like, we could do this or we could do this. and they're like, okay, slow down. Let's just pick one lane and go,

Nathan C:

so connected intelligence is like absolutely a theme that I've been digesting a lot of recently. I'm thinking back to a conversation I had at the health HLTH just in October with Kent Dix who's using a similar idea of connected. To take care from like responsive to when people are in an emergency to like proactive and predictive care and helping veterans avoid health emergencies is like a super noble cause. But we also like kind of got into, there's like a trust and safety factor to the same things that make like the value and the use case so compelling. how do you approach telling, stories and sharing like these new visions for the future when you also have to tell and, respond to some serious sides as well as inspiring sides?

Caitlin Lacey:

Yeah, I mean, I don't have the security background, like some of my colleagues do. But Cisco is built as a security company. so that is ingrained and it's part. of everything that we do. And there's been so many announcements in this last year alone just around how we're thinking about protecting our customers around ai. And I do think that there's some element too, within the experience to have AI also be a protector. and I don't have enough technical knowledge there to actually say what's being built, but there's a lot that's going on on that side.

Nathan C:

Caitlin in, a complex world that we live in, if you had a magic wand and could fix one blocker, that's standing in your path or your team's path, what would it.

Caitlin Lacey:

I think the one thing that really stands in the way of just incredible work is alignment. And in a global team, getting everybody aligned is a full-time job. you have. GMs and business leaders who sit on the other side of the world and are in meetings from 6:00 AM their time till 11:00 PM their time sometimes, You've got these incredible marketers who are on the ground doing the execution and the real day-to-day work that need to somehow get the information up and back and across. And if I had a magic wand, I would make it possible to just get everybody in a room and say, this is the story we wanna tell. Can you show me the products that ladder up to it now and in the future? do we agree that this is the story that's gonna set us apart in the market? And if we could have half an hour to an hour to discuss that without any interruptions and we walk out of that room with a plan, like that would be magic to me.

Nathan C:

I often talk about how, especially like when I'm advising go to market teams, that the first three minutes of your time with that global GM who's on meetings all day long. Is when you win or lose the meeting and how quickly you can reframe their focus and attention and help them see what kind of problem they're supposed to be solving in the meeting. right, because if they come in solving a financial problem and you have like a HR question for them, you're gonna come at it from such different directions.

Caitlin Lacey:

Yeah. And if you can set the tone by saying, Hey, by the end of this call we're gonna have solved this problem, then all of a sudden you've captured their attention. They know the intent of the call, and you can spend, 20 minutes actually solving versus trying to figure out,

Nathan C:

Mm.

Caitlin Lacey:

what you're even here for.

Nathan C:

But, even for experienced professionals, the communicators challenges always be communicating, so before we get to the speed round, I wanna ask this question that I love asking leaders, right? Sometimes a mentor, a coach, a guide, a family member, just saying, I believe you keep going, can, make all the difference for innovators and entrepreneurs. I'm curious, can you share a moment when a mentor, fan, or coach has, helped you to level up?

Caitlin Lacey:

Oh my gosh, I am where I am today because a few amazing people believed in me. so shout out to all of you. I know you know who you are'cause I tell you on a regular basis, but I have to say that my Cisco journey has been probably one of my most. Surprising and intense, experiences and, our CMO, Tagged me a year ago to present one of the products we were announcing on stage as the person who was delivering the demo. I'd only been at the company, I wanna say like two and a half months when this conversation happened. She messaged me, called me late on a Friday, and she said, Hey, I need you to join this meeting with our SVP and I need you to present. this tool, which is our workspace designer, which allows you to kind of model a space out before you commit to it. And I said, yeah, sure, I can demo this for him. Absolutely. Thinking it was for the call to introduce him to the payload and some of the things we were gonna be announcing get on the call and we're, we're going through exactly the presentation and then this, as she pauses and she goes, and this is the part where Caitlin's gonna come on stage and she's gonna present this alongside you. And I just, Nathan, I froze in that moment of like. whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. I don't, I mean, I'm new. Like no one knows me from, from Adam in this group, and you're gonna put me on stage. And it was that sense of belief in the fact that I could do it. She had never seen me present except for in these small one-to-one situations, but she. Had this belief and confidence that I could do it, and oh my God, was it the coolest opportunity? And then I did it again the next week because our, our chief product officer invited me to go do it at another event with him on stage, and then I got to do it again. And, and they flew me to Amsterdam to, to do a different product. And it's just, it's been this whirlwind of opportunity where I have, I have worked for years on my public speaking and I have. I have spent time thinking about that as a, as an aspect that I could deliver. But I am terrified when I go on stage, and yet she saw that in me from a couple of meetings. And it's those kinds of leaders that I wanna be like, where I can see they have a spark or they have something to offer that maybe they haven't gotten the opportunity. That's what I seek in my day to day as a leader.

Nathan C:

I love that so much. one of the pieces of advice that I always give to people who are looking for roles is that leaders will hire you because. They see something in you, right? And leaders know why you're there. So when they invite you in, it is for a reason. they saw that your ability to tell the story, to bring people in and to introduce these new ideas at such a high level. Was totally your wheelhouse and where you're going. bravo, Goosebumps. Okay, now it's time for the speed round. if there were one takeaway that listeners should walk away from this episode, what should it be?

Caitlin Lacey:

The best stories start from a place of curiosity.

Nathan C:

I'm also super nerdy about strategic planning. It's currently, middle of Q4 in 2025. Where is your brain? What quarter is your brain in right now?

Caitlin Lacey:

professionally, it's in, fiscal year, Q1 of next year. For Cisco, we're on a fiscal year, not a calendar year. that's typically when our big event is for collaboration. So my head is there, in Q2 when we have a bunch of events that we also have to deliver against.

Nathan C:

do you have a spicy soundbite, a hot take on trends, technology, culture, or beyond?

Caitlin Lacey:

It is not mine, but it's one that I'm following closely, which is, AI is not going away, but the humanity behind AI is going to take center stage. you may think that that English degree is not worthwhile, but I'm gonna tell you, young listeners, that English degree is gonna come in handy more and more.

Nathan C:

how can people follow up, Caitlin, do

Caitlin Lacey:

No, I'm mostly on LinkedIn Caitlin Meyer Lacey. Uh, and that's pretty much platform that I'm hanging out on these days.

Nathan C:

Except for Cisco stages around the world at, uh, the quarter's most important and exclusive events. Oh my goodness. Caitlin Lacey, director of Global Product Marketing at Cisco, someone who has been at the forefront of introducing new ways to connect, compute, and to collaborate, for over a decade. Always bringing a voice of customer and a good story, to the work that you do. It has been such a delight to chat with you on The Tech Glow Up. Thank you so much. If you've made it this far in the podcast, I really appreciate you. Thanks for listening. Please make sure to like and subscribe so that you never miss an episode of the Tech Glow Up. And hey, can I ask you a favor? If you really enjoyed this episode, could you share it on your Instagram stories or maybe post the link with what you enjoyed on LinkedIn? The sort of sharing and engaging really helps small podcasters like me reach the audience that I know really cares about these kinds of conversations.