What's The Point Anyway?

What's The Point Anyway - Mike Miano's wild path from high security prison to worshipping the Most High.

• Luke McInnes

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In this conversation, Pastor Michael Miano shares his profound journey from a life of gang involvement to finding faith in Jesus Christ while in prison. He discusses the intrinsic value of life, the quest for deeper meaning, and the transformative power of literature and mentorship. Michael reflects on his exploration of various faiths, including Islam, before ultimately embracing Christianity. He emphasizes the importance of authenticity, personal growth, and the continuous pursuit of truth, encouraging listeners to examine their beliefs and seek understanding.

Takeaways

  • The intrinsic value of life is a universal quest.
  • Literature can be a powerful tool for transformation.
  • Exploring different faiths can lead to deeper understanding.
  • Authenticity in faith is crucial for personal growth.
  • Community support plays a vital role in one's journey.
  • The biblical narrative reveals God's purpose and presence.
  • Seeking truth requires humility and openness to learning.
  • Disagreement can be approached with love and understanding.
  • Personal experiences shape our understanding of faith.
  • God welcomes our questions and struggles.


You can find more of Michael's content at the following links:
powerofpreterism.com
bluepointbiblechurch.org
God's past judgement - https://mianogonewild.wordpress.com/2018/07/23/884/

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Welcome to What's the Point Anyway. I'm extremely excited about tonight's guest. In from Long Island, New York is Pastor Michael Miano, a man who is probably my favorite content producer on the earth today. I'm absolutely blessed to have joined me on the show and I'm so happy that I'm going to be able to introduce him to many of my listeners for the first time too. Mike is an encyclopedia when it comes to not only biblical studies, but also history, politics and broader philosophies and religions. His backstory is one of the more incredible testimonies I've heard, having spent his teenage and early adult years as a gang member until he found Jesus Christ in prison. But more importantly, he's a really great person and I just think he's the perfect guest for this pod where we seek to answer the question on what the point is anyway. Mike, thanks for coming on. Can you hear me? Hey, Brother, yes I can. I can hear you. I had my lovely little angel wake up right in the midst of you introducing the program. Perfect. We can, we can, we can leave that in the show to show it to show the rawness and authenticity of it. Amen. So what's the point of life anyway? Come on now. This is, this is it in the law. So thank you brother for the amazing thoughts that you shared there at the beginning. It was an encouragement right alongside hearing my daughter wake up. So thank you for that. And I appreciate the time and your effort. I've enjoyed listening to some of your program and even some of your interview with the boroughs of Berea podcast. So Thank you for the invite and if I missed your question please remind me and let's jump in here. That's all right, a pleasure Mike and to your daughter as well, what's her name? Kalani, welcome Kalani. So I guess I just asked, you know, off the bat, what's the point anyway? Tell me what pops into your head when you hear this. Yeah, you know, I thought that's such a beautiful opening and obviously such a deep topic to respond to. However, my immediate thought is the intrinsic value of life that we seem to have within us, where, and again, I know it's made known in people's minds and hearts in so many different ways. And some people don't even know it's there, this desire for something more. And as I, you know, obviously listened to your program and thought about that question, pretty much waking up with that on my mind, I thought of the quote by C .S. Lewis where he said, and if I might just pull it up here and share that because it just rung so true to me as I prayed and thought about what you're sharing here. Sorry, excuse me one second. That's right, I think I know the quote you're gonna go to, but I'll wait until you get it. imagine you do. It's a popular one and it's so beautiful. If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. And amen, you know, and I hope that my life and testimony exhibit that, you know, if we search and seek, we truly can find life. And that's what comes to mind for me, brother, when I think of what's the point anyway, it's just something that As I talked through that question with my wife last night, I said, I've been influenced and kind of encouraged my whole life to find a deeper meaning to the reality of something that I, again, the only way I can explain it is it's intrinsic. It's something that for me at least has come from within and is almost mystical in trying to explain. Yeah, I think that's spot on. think for me, it's what, you know, it's what separates us from the animals and other beings as this, and also I think being a father has been such a crucial part in it for me. just look at my kids and realize there's something, it seems odd to me. And I mean, I lived my life 30 plus years as an atheist, believing that there actually isn't any more, any deeper meaning. so I, I really, that answer really resonates in the CS Lewis quote you mentioned was the same one that I was thinking of as well. you've, you know, I've heard your testimony, but I'd love to, for you to share a little bit of it, with the audience, but. You know, I know you spoke about, I'm not sure how old you were when you became Christian, maybe in your late teens or early twenties, but you obviously had a fairly rocky road. to get there and then your life got to a point where you were, I guess, forced to stop and really start to think about that meaning. Do you wanna talk a little bit about your sort of teenage years and maybe the decade or so leading up to that point that made you really start to think about what the meaning is greater than ourselves? Absolutely. And again, thank you for the privilege. know, one of the short ways that I usually tell my testimony is I say, hey, I wrote a book, freaked out by the new covenant, you check it out. And that is one way that folks can get a more exhaustive, you know, understanding of things. And again, you know, I will say this at the outset, the best way I've been able to explain what God has done in my life is he just freaked me out with good news. And we'll get to that as we go on. So. In my early life, I was kind of transferred back and forth to family members. My mother suffered with a drug addiction, which by the grace of God, she's fighting the good fight these days and attending services, worship services here. Such a blessing to be a young man and see your mother sitting there in the audience listening to the intruders and allowing them to resignate, even though she does not always agree with everything that I might say. And that's just a beautiful part of what we represent here at Blue Point. So before I get into all of that, My mother, know, due to her addiction, I was kind of bounced around to different family members, which I think left a sort of longing at that time. I wouldn't have explained it that way, but a longing for family, for direction, for influence. And I bounce around and early on, I, you know, I surely had a devious nature about me and especially raising kids, you learn a lot about yourself and your younger years. And I look back and I say, man, I was sort of devious. I didn't even realize. I would have argued against that early on, but I was. then at 13 years old, I found a great outlet for my devious nature and wanting to have some ego. I joined a gang. know what? Our society might call it gang. And I think the ins and outs of that gets tricky in the gang world. However, I joined this group and it's okay, mama. I'm a more comfortable position. I get it. You know, I got involved in this group and as I look back, you know, at that time really it was just, this is what's fun, this is what's happening, this is something that's giving me an identity. And I wouldn't have explained it again. I think it's so important to remind ourselves that we wouldn't have said those things about our life at those points. You know, most of the time we don't even know we're confused or stuck in confusion. So for me, that was the, you know, the identity I wanted. I felt that I had, that and I grew up in this world and a lot of positive things come from that world even early this morning thinking about some of the things that came from that rocky road to borrow that phrase you know that you highlighted there there was a lot of good that came out of my life I'm always appreciative I remind my mother often that I love the man that God has built me into which comes with all the bumps bruises and pimples so to speak and you know it's just who I am so I went through, I lived in this identity. It was a violent identity. It was all about really puffing up your ego, your pride, which I would say is the antithesis to what we've come to know in Jesus, is how to move away from that identity of ego and pride and so much more that comes with that. So that's how I would look back and I hope you might poke at that and pull it apart a bit, but that's how I look back on my 13 to let's say 19 years old. my formidable years was really this egocentric, violent, using every opportunity I could to express my anger and my frustration with life, not knowing the right ways to qualify those experiences and go through them. I sought violence. I this egocentric identity in my gang world where it was all about my reputation. how people would come to know me. And then unfortunately to kind of speed up that I at 19 years old, I was back and forth to the county jail. 16 years old, started, I call it a career. you know, was just constantly there. spent more time in the county jail than I did home, in three years from 16 to 19. And also, you know, dealing with getting kicked out of various high schools and just the mess. And then at 19, I ended up getting state, state time, you know, sentenced to prison and I turned it into the worst experience possible. Three years in prison in New York State earns you a minimum security identity. You're in a prison with no gates, et cetera. And I ended up to speed up that story. And again, I'll break here to ask you, to allow you to ask some questions. I ended up in a maximum security prison with people doing life in prison. And here I was, just a young man stuck in some confused identity. and needing help, needing guidance, and really messed up that prison time. And thanks be to God, of course, because the pressure surely pushed me in a certain direction that caused me to think through things. obviously today is why I have a testimony in Christ. Thanks so much, Michael. One question that did come to mind as you were talking about that, particularly when you sort of led it, you're opening talking about that C .S. Lewis quote about believing that there's something more in this life and, and a quest to sort of seek a deeper meaning. How would have you thought about a quote like that in your sort of mid to late teenage years? Like was it, did you think there was something more and maybe you know, the violence and the gang involvement was just a coping mechanism to avoid that question or were you immature in your thought and you didn't think there was anything beyond what was in front of your eyes? You know, I definitely attribute a lot of the influences I had in my life. You know, I think of my aunt early on saying things like, could do anything you want. And that kind of urging me in a direction that, well, there is more to life. If I could do anything I want, my life looks like this. There has to be more that I'm missing out on, you know? then psychologically, it's funny, I look back sometimes and I say, do I have the Messiah complex? know, early on, I always thought I had knowledge that nobody else had. You know, I was just the... the person with all the wisdom. I tried to relish in that identity. would read a lot, I loved it. And I think God had given me, which unfortunately as we know, God gives us gifts that we see people use in hard ways and we see people use to the glory of God. And early on, what I began to do is use that to puff up my pride and read a lot. in short, I would say that I always seemed to know that there was more to life. And I wonder where that came from, if it's the Holy Spirit, if you will. or if it was just influences and interactions. One of the things I've learned in my hermeneutic, my Bible understanding as a preterist is that audience relevance is far more than just the way we read the Bible. A lot of times it should cause us to examine our experiences and say, what shaped my thought in that problem? Why did I have those ideas and conclusions and ways of viewing the world? And I think a lot of that's attributed to being a young men in Western culture, 21st century. So, you know, I often wonder when I look at my testimony and I examine myself, which by the way, I think that's the key. What's the point anyway? The apostle Paul tells us again and again to examine ourselves. And I thank God that for some reason in my whole life, I've always had this sort of desire to want to know more. while, yes, early on it was used in a negative fashion to kind of puff up my ego. I thank God that that's still there. that desire to just search and examine myself and ask myself, I truly growing? Is this real? So a coping mechanism, you know, obviously you and I exchanged notes prior to this program. And as I pondered that and talked with my wife, which is my, you know, I think is the key as a married man to find wisdom in your life is talk with your wife. So, you know, I did that about a lot of these questions. And as I did, I thought about, Well, we could call everything in life a coping mechanism. If we do that route, right? Everything becomes a coping mechanism, which I guess the next question becomes, is this coping mechanism actually beneficial and is it true? Or is it something I'm, we never want to deceive ourselves, which we know biblically is all too easy to be deceived in and of ourselves, to be deceived by others. So as I examine that, I think through that question, I think Yeah, maybe a coping mechanism, but a coping mechanism nonetheless that urged me toward examining myself and being authentic and wanting to believe true things, not necessarily holding on to something that makes me feel better about my experiences. Perfect. So when you were, you know, so you're talking, you know, you're in your early twenties, you're in a maximum security prison in, New York state. you know, you're in about as bad a position as anyone could possibly imagine. What was the, what, what started to turn? When did you start to seek that deeper meaning and where did you first start to prod to find it? You know, I think the first thing that began to happen in my life was a dissatisfaction with what I was doing, right? A dissatisfaction with the way I was thinking, the way I was looking at the world, with the people around me, the identity I was holding to. And there, you know, I truly believe, well, Bible talks about this, so it doesn't matter if I believe it not, it's true, that, you know, there's wisdom found in the multitude of counselors. And... It's funny because somebody just brought that Bible verse up to me the other day asking me about, know, do I believe in the multitude of counselors as a way of wisdom? Absolutely. I believe that's been a foundation of my life. So I say that because when I was in prison, necessary part of my sentence was to go to mental health counseling. And it was this mental health counselor who challenged me to express who I was without my identities. For example, you know, I would say I was a gang member, I would say, or I didn't say it at that time like that. I would say I was a member of this group. I would say that I was a son or brother, whatever it might be, all these different ideas. And the counselor said, you don't know who you are. For some reason in that very moment, it just hit me. I don't think I know who I am. And I began to really think through things and I had no idea in my life that I would ever leave my gang. I actually used to joke that I would become the president of the United States as a member of my gang. You and felonies make that a bit tricky early on, then America's changing. Yeah. Might be a prerequisite now. Yeah, yeah, know. The world's a mess. I want a conversation to have early in the morning. you know, so what happened was I began to kind of rethink things and Christianity was not it. Let me be clear. Most of my family were nominal Catholic. My grandmother being very devout Catholic, but I just felt she was a nice woman. So it didn't matter whether she was a Catholic, Jesus died for her, whatever it might be. She was just a nice woman nonetheless. So Her faith didn't exactly attract me. I had gone to Catholic services with her here and there, would fall asleep in her lap. I'd gone to some churches when I was younger. The message did not resonate with me other than, wow, it's pretty cool to be that guy up there talking. There's that egocentric man again. So for me, that was the only general interest I would have saw in church. And as I was in prison, I just began to think. And for me, really, originally, it was going to be more of like the Eastern religions, finding, you know, just finding your inner self, which again, really just highlights, it's all about Mike Miyano in my work. You know, and thanks be to God that again, I mentioned the desire to read and love to read and in prison, you know, you have options. You can listen to the banter on the gate that people are talking about, which is usually nonsense and it's gonna end up more frustrating than satisfying. So. That wasn't of interest to me. I could talk to people that are in prison for crimes that obviously they didn't do it to the best of their ability because they're in prison. So I don't really want to know your advice on that. So for me, the only option I had was to read. And so I would just read books a lot and take in a lot of information. I wasn't a fan of fiction books. I would read a lot of nonfiction. The strangest things too, sometimes in prison in some of the environments I... got in trouble a lot. was in solitary confinement and they would just drop off three books. It's not like you get to have a library in front of you. They drop off three books and this is your option for the week until they come you get to choose or they would just give three random bulls? No, in some environments it was just three random books. Whatever you showed up in the hotel was there. That's what you have for the week. You might get lucky and somebody might come around at some point and drop off. I I read the dictionary that was, and I was inspired by Malcolm X, his autobiography. said he read the dictionary in prison. So was like, well, this is an option, unfortunately. And then, know, and I did, and I wrote notes. I I wrote notes on reading the dictionary, which was pretty strange thing. I would think them up somewhere at this point because I save everything, which has been a gift in my life as well, just to kind of have these things to look back on and relearn. For example, sharing my testimony oftentimes, even up to right just this morning, is me reviewing things that I've written, wrote about, studied in the past and just re-energizing my mind. I think that's a part of what we read in Romans 12 about the renewing of our mind. So note taking and things like that. That was very beneficial to me in prison and I would say probably shaped the person that I ended up becoming because I was reading, taking notes, trying to absorb anything I could get my hands on and think differently. you know, as I've mentioned a couple of times here, I think the theme for me today is I didn't look at my life like that then. You know, in those moments for me, it was just what else would I do? I don't want to talk to any of these, you know, folks on the gate. I don't want to hear about people's crimes. I don't care. So for me, the reading helped and it kind of steered me in a direction of, obviously, if you take in information, you're going to begin to look at the world differently. And the world was far bigger than the world I knew at that point. And praise be to God, it's far bigger than I think it is right now. Yeah. Just, if I could jump in there for a sec, Mark, at that point, were you, were you doing this because you wanted to come out the other side and get away from the gangs and get away from being in prison, or did you just want to be a better version of yourself, which might've meant being a better gang leader? That's a great question. had no desire to leave my gang. I had no, I never saw that as a reality. It was all about, again, it really was all about Mike Deano. You know, it's something I say with the apostle Paul, I die daily. You know, so in that very moment, it really was just about me and wanting to grow and wanting to think differently about the world. And my gang began to be dissatisfying, namely because I realized that in the street world, you know, as they say, There's always someone bigger and better. And what I've realized is that you'll never satisfy every person's perspective of what it means to be the, you know, the quote unquote, the man, right? You know, the toughest person, the baddest person, there's always someone that will have a different perception of that. And as I thought that through, after, you know, I had gotten into a fight and I thought I did everything that any good gang member would do. And I listened to people's perceptions and I was like, wait a minute, that's That's the way it blew my mind. yeah, it blew my mind. And obviously at that moment, I just began that dissatisfaction with my previous life caused me to want to grow and look at the world different. But again, wasn't that I was going, what would be nice would be after doing three years in prison, which I wasn't sure that that's how my prison time was going to go. I think that was a big, another part of what was going on was I assumed I was either going to end up staying in prison because Sometimes people frustrated me to no end and I was just going to lengthen that sentence a bit. Or the other thing I had hanging over my head, which people would kind of remind me of was, what if I go outside the prison gates and the feds pick me up? And that was a possibility in my life, unfortunately. So I didn't anticipate going home. And if I did, the major thing was it would be nice to get a job. It wasn't so much that I was going to become this positive role model or anything like that. Even though the group I was a part of, they did have ideas that wanted to promote becoming, as I mentioned earlier, you know, I had joked that I was going to become the first president of the United States. So there were positive ideas that were being fostered and I attribute some of my growth in my life to some of those things that were set down early. So I know it was a long answer there and I apologize, but I hope that I responded to what you said that, you know, I forget the specific question, but I hope I responded to your point. Yeah, definitely. No, it was really insightful. and I think it was, you know, I was just trying to dig at that, that shift that happened from you from being where you were to trying to, you know, I guess, dig your way out of it with knowledge. And, know, I think you use knowledge as your tool. where did you, where did you go from there? So what, you know, you, you mentioned the Eastern religions, but it was all about. sort of building Mike Miano, but I think you had, spoke about it and I know, and I know you now. and you know, we've sort of exchanged notes on it. You had this desire for truth. So whatever, whatever you wanted to find you, you know, you're saying is I sort of laughed myself as you said, when you read books, you never read fiction. I was sort of always the same. I'd always read just nonfiction because I was, I was never interested in anything, any sort of fairy tales or made up things. I just wanted truth, truth, truth, truth. What was some of the key things that you started to read or started to hear that started to shift you from where you were then to where you are now? Yeah, you know, so looking at mythology in the Eastern religions, mythology was actually first, now that I think about it. And obviously there's only so many seven headed dragons you can read about, you know, this needing this person and spitting out children or something that you're like, all right, I need something a little better than this. So, you know, then I moved on to philosophy and I appreciate philosophy. I still to this day, know, I Socrates, an unexamined life is not worth living. Amen. Yeah. and I appreciated those thoughts. then again, really, it didn't seem to be taking me to a place beyond who I was. Again, I don't even know how to qualify what I was looking for. I just knew it wasn't satisfying. so then I began to interestingly enough, I always remember reading the Zohar, the Kabbalah religion thing there and just seeing like, this stuff is nuts. And that's where I started to like, move away from like Eastern religions and mysticism, was just, if I could conjure up a feeling, I mean, if that's what we're doing here, I could do a sit in my cell and put my leg behind my head or something and conjure up some feelings. And that's what I started to feel like I was maybe going into a direction of, like I started to, it was almost like I was forcing myself and I was like, yeah, that's not right. So then, I started to go, strange, I started to go to Catholic services. But then somehow the Catholic services steered me in the direction of Islam. And I think it was just sitting there and I was saying, I don't understand what this guy's saying. There's no real connection. I knew I wasn't baptized as a Catholic and that I'm not supposed to receive communion. So I was always kind of there as like an outsider. so that just began to be dissatisfying as well. And again, I say dissatisfying because that's what it was. was just, every experience I was having was not measuring up to what I felt that I wanted and needed and if you know, if it's all about me then come on, I got to chase after what I want and need. So then I started studying Islam and Islam was the first bump into dying to myself, right? Now here in Islam, you're submitting to Allah. You're doing it that he's angry, you know, and that mankind is a mess, which I think everybody would agree. And here we have the solution. We can submit to Allah, we can die to ourselves. And you know, what intrigued me was here are inmates in prison saying that they're gonna go home and dress different, they're learning different languages, I was like, man, this is it, I think I found God, you know? And... Cause they were taking it so seriously. Yeah. for me was important. You know, to this day, I would say I'm attracted to people that take their faith seriously. I'm inspired by people that take their faith seriously. And so Islam began to kind of be that next step for me where it wasn't just about Mike Miano. It was more about now, if there is a God, how do I honor him? How do I respect him? However, I didn't know that I necessarily believed in God. It was just, okay, so these are some ideas that if there is a God, this might be the God that I want to satisfy and please. And so I began to read Islamic books and, you know, what I appreciate about the Islamic faith is they have a process. know, early Christianity had processes too. You know, they want you to take an oath, a Shahada oath and confess your faith. And for me, I began to consider that. And what that pushed me in the direction of was, well, now wait a minute, if I'm going to make decisions and then actually commit to something else, right? I would always talk to people about, what does that mean for my gang identity? And it didn't seem to be a problem to most of the Muslim men that I was dealing with in the prison system. They were just like, well, you're not gonna run around and talk about your gang. You're gonna obviously talk about the dictates of Allah. So that was my next step in my journey, of just becoming dissatisfied with a self-centered, It's all about building up my inner self type of picture that I was getting from the Eastern faiths and Eastern understandings. I still appreciate the eightfold path. Again, I think if you want to have some self -help and growth, you can look into the different religions and use some of the wisdom, sure. But it wasn't captivating me. then my next step was bumping into Islam. then now it became truth right now. It's about it's not so much about building up my inner self. It's now is this right or wrong? Is this true or false? And I'll stop there if you have any questions in that journey there. No, that's great. I, yeah, I I don't, I'd almost prefer you just to keep going because I think you're really hitting on, on the points that I'm really interested in. I think, I think it's fascinating that you've, hit Islam in that journey. and now, and now you've started to move into away from, feeling good about yourself, maximizing your own potential to really examining what is the truth. So I'm, I'm keen to learn why. What shifted you then away? What shifted you away from Islam? Well, so now interestingly enough, what I learned early on, it's been such a blessing in my life. Again, I think the key, we, you can just go through your life and not pay attention to any of the keys, right? The keynote points that God has blessed you with or the divine, however, the universe, if you wanna use that. I'm comfortable with people having their own understanding and expression. think that that's obviously a conversation we can move into or even plan for another time. But I noticed you talked to brother Daniel Rogers and obviously, Daniel would be another person to talk to about the keynote differences in the church and the points that the progress the church needs to make in appreciating the differences. but that being said, when I began to study Islam, I began to realize, well, there's different expressions of Islam. And now that I'm even saying that, even in the gang culture, I began to realize there's different expressions of this gang. So I began to have this idea that there's different expressions. And as I studied Islam, Obviously now it's like, okay, so are the Sunni Muslims right? the Sufi Muslims right? Are the Shiite Muslims, you know, who's right? And I studied with a very serious, you know, he was known to be very aggressive, a man that was a Shiite Muslim. And the problem for me began to be that he made it very divisive. was us versus other Muslims. And I was like, well, I'm not trying to join another gang. That's not what's going on here. And then it did, it started to cause problems with my gang identity. was like, well, wait a minute here. If I'm trying to move in a different direction and yet I have this guy moving me back in the same direction, well, then this is not going to work. And I began to see some personal hypocrisy about myself where that Islam, you're not allowed to eat pork. or anything with a pork -based substance. So in prison, know, your food's limited. It's not like you're going to the supermarket and picking out organic food. So, you know, that being said, my mother would send in certain foods that had yellow five or certain substances that I guess would be deemed pork substance. So here I am. Again, I've been committed to my gang for years. I'm in prison for, you know, a crime that I confessed to, yet I didn't commit. And Now I'm sitting in my cell and I'm eating Pop Tarts while trying to muffle the sound of the Pop Tart wrapper because I'm not allowed to eat pork or a substance and then Pop Tarts apparently have something yellow, five, whatever. So I'll never forget that night because I said, wait a minute now, you don't even know if you believe in God and you're doing your very best, you're growing here and you're striving, but now you're turning into a hypocrite. You're turning into someone that's going to... you know, if we're talking about God, it just, really did begin to baffle me in that moment that here I was, I was about to try to hide eating a Pop Tart, to hide from God, that I guess I was, and I was like, man, this is, there's something not right here. So then it began this desire within me, you know, I have to know if you put something in my head, I'm gonna dig, I'm gonna learn. And I to read and I remember somebody dropped off a book called Jesus the Prophet of Islam, I still have it to this day. Yeah, right. I begin to read it. And now I'm learning about Jesus. And obviously this is intriguing me because now I can argue with my Christian family members and friends about the difference between Islam and Christianity. And I bumped into some problems, some historical issues, and I've always loved history. And so then I began to realize that, well, I began to ask questions like, well, wait a minute now. If... The Bible was around before, you know, the Quran. If it's saying to read the Bible, to read the angel, to read the Torah, can we, do we have these writings? Who had these writings in the fifth century or sixth century when Muhammad's saying to write these things, you know, and read these things and interact with Christians and being that the man that was speaking to me about Islam was very anti -Western, anti -Christian. a lot of the focus began to be this Christian worldview. And so now I'm asking questions and I'm wanting to know, and the historical details just didn't add up for me. You know, and I began to, I was writing home and I'm telling my mom, can you print out the oldest manuscript of the Bible? And you know, I'm sure people at home were wondering what is happening. You know, what's going on with him? They knew I was, I don't think anybody had any idea that I was studying Christianity or anything like that, or Islam for that matter. I think I may have told a couple people. I know I heard your testimony, you and I share that initial zeal, you know, to make sure people know where at, and you know, I'm right, you're wrong. You know, we all lament that reality of what we did then. So I think I did that a little bit with Islam. But again, bumping into some just historical issues for me. What writings came first and not being comfortable with the fact that, so the only way that we really know the message of Jesus sorry, just to. Hey, Mike, can you hear me? I can. Hey, mate. Can you, can you, sorry, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Can you hear me? Hello? Yeah, the last minute it got really, really jumpy. If you'll bear with me one second, just... fine but it just went really really like jumpy. So I might just cut that out. Could you just... Yeah, yeah, go for it. You're alright mom It should get better. you all right? Okay, you're back in now. hear you. Yes, I am. All right, do I sound okay? Yes, you do. Let me see. I'm just. Just trying to remove one thing it's saying, the recording stopped. There we go. Yeah, it said it stopped, but then you've joined again. So your new recording has continued. Did that totally mess you up? Nah, it'll be fine, can just edit it. I'll just edit it in. But, I'll get you maybe to continue from... maybe just maybe continue, maybe go again from where you started to see the, where you, yeah, the historical issues. I'll turn my camera off just in case that's making it just so... to be plugged in and I think my battery was just running down. So I plugged it in. Yeah, okay. All right, perfect. All right, you go on whenever is good for you. So as I'm in the middle of studying and really just wanting to know, so who's right? The Christians, the Muslims, do I need to just back out and form my own ideas again and reverse my understanding of history? Again, because I know it all at this point, and that's something I always look back at. I'm like, man, how little did you actually know? But again, so I'm studying and I'm thinking and I'm reading this book. called Jesus the Prophet of Islam. And as I'm reading it, it's talking about different manuscripts and what writings came first and how Allah's writings can have no discrepancies to them. And so this is challenging me, well, wait a minute, was there a Bible if it's telling us to read the Torah and the Injil in the Quran, was there a Bible in that time that one could read? And what are the changes, right? one of the biggest arguments within Islam is that in our New Testament says Christians, there's been changes in the Greek writings and in even basically that we don't have any trustworthy writings as Christians. And so if that was the case, I was like, well, that's a nail in the coffin for Christianity right there. So then I began to ask my mother, I was writing home and asking my mother to send me different printouts and different articles about, you know, writings, early Christian writings. And, you know, then I bumped into the Gnostic scriptures and I'm like, man, this gets this, this rabbit trail goes far. And what it caused me to do though, was ask questions. And as I began to ask a lot of those within the, Muslim community, I started to kind of get ostracized because I was asking these questions. You know, I was suspect. I was not going in the direction of truth. And that was a warning sign from That began to challenge me, well, wait a minute now. If I'm not allowed to ask questions, then my journey in this direction isn't gonna go very far because that's what I'm doing. I'm growing, I'm asking questions, I'm wanting to know more about the story of life, if you will. so that began to challenge me. And then my desire left, what I ended up doing was refusing. They had scheduled me for taking the Shahada and I said no. And then I ended up in some issues in the jail. The unfortunate reality is, I know in our notes we shared a little bit about that, you could be on a desire and a good path and going in a good direction, which again, I think even studying Islam at that point was my mind was beginning to develop and desire better things than what I was experiencing. So while I don't believe I was on the right path, so to speak, I believe I was going in a good direction. So I ended up getting in trouble in the prison over something and I forget what that incident was. I got in trouble a lot. Sometimes it was things I did, sometimes it was things that just kind of followed me in my gang life. So I got in trouble and I got transferred to another jail. Now in the next jail, the good thing about that is you get to form your own identity again, right? And the bad thing about that is you have to form your own identity again. You know, it works in twofold way. So that's right. That's the story of life. You know, I guess that's what I should have said at the very beginning of the program. know, it isn't a whole... Life is all about burdens and blessings. And if learn to infuse the two, right, and appreciate them, it causes a whole lot of growth in your life. So here I am in the midst of my burden and blessing, getting into a new jail, not affiliating myself with these very aggressive Muslims that were within the jail, but instead taking a different route and talking more with, like, I guess you would say liberal Muslims, know, the Muslims that weren't so argumentative and about. truth and false, really just wanting to live peaceful lives, et cetera. So again, in prison, just as many divides and distinctions we have in the world, in our world today, they're all there in prison as well. It's a world within a world, if you will. So then I began to study with them and just ask questions. Unfortunately, at this point, I was told now even by these more liberal, just nice Muslim men, you're not allowed to talk to any of our brothers anymore if you do. it will result in violence. I'm like, man, this is a very short, short journey. So then at that point I was like, all right, well, I think everybody's wrong. you know, everybody's wrong. Christian, again, no desire to really prove the Christian religion or try to go through that, but rather just, you know, Muslims are wrong. These are the most serious devout people I've found so far. And yet these people don't, you know. are threatening me if I'm trying to seek truth. So then I made it my business to just try to be like argumentative with people. I remember I ended up getting in trouble yet again and ending up in a jail cell with a kid that was a former Jehovah witness. Now here I am, agnostic to say the least. And I began to poke at him about the Jehovah witness faith and I would ask him questions and I basically began to read the Bible to antagonize him. And Yeah. and that obviously created a zeal within me to want to read the Bible a little bit. And then I felt positive thoughts. And then when I got out of the solitary confinement with that individual, sometimes they double bunk you in solitary confinement. So it's not so solitary at that point. Then I got transferred to another jail and I said I wanted to go to Protestant worship services. And so begins this amazing change in my life. So I can just kind of run into that and then I'll quiet down. try not to be so run on in my life and my speech here. So. And at that point, it was just because you'd started studying the Bible a little bit that you wanted to go to the Protestant worship sessions, not because you believed it necessarily yet. I don't think I believed in anything at that point. I think it was more so, I can't go to the masjid anymore, obviously, that's out. Catholic services, I just remember like just feeling like an outsider and saying, know, I wasn't getting much. To me, unfortunately, and this might sound horrid to some folks, but please understand why I'm saying it. To me at that point, Catholicism was an Eastern religion. It was just all about myself, about some sort of you know, feeling better about myself. And I didn't, that's not, that wasn't satisfying to me. So then I, now Islam obviously did begin this thing in my mind where if I become a Muslim, I'm going to have to change my life. Like it's not just adding value to my life. It's changing my life, right? And there's things I can do and can't do. Obviously can't eat pop tarts. You know, there was just things that I was going to have to take serious. And Then I, so now when I go to the product, well, before I found out about Protestant Services, I asked this young man on my cell block, I said, how do I go to Protestant Services? And he said, I have just the man for you to meet. This man knew nothing about me. Okay, so for him to have that zeal, I'll never forget he was like so energetic about it. I have just the person for you to meet. And I remember probably in my mind being like, all right, dude, don't do anything too crazy here and get me on some wild path. But nonetheless, he did. then he introduced me to this man named Paul. And Paul, you know, I'll tell you, was, God really used this man because he said to me, said, are you interested? Or I forget, I must've been talking about something with somebody and he said, you're interested in politics and history. And he said, let's study together. And he said, you know, the Bible has a lot to say about politics and history. you know, what better, well, at least this isn't the yelling on the gates or, you know, the talking about our crimes. I'll sit down with this guy. No desire to become a Christian, but hey, if it's teach me something new, why not? And I began to study with him and what he said was intriguing. Like he would bring me to Ezekiel and he would show me about eagles and how that related to America and all this very intriguing, we're in the end times. And also, unfortunately at that point, it fed my ego because I was a part of the people that got it, the message. I was a part of the people. So, Yeah, yeah. You know, now this is like, I'm interested. I have my eyes opened. I'm one of the people that's going to lead other people to truth. And, you know, so I began to read with him, study with him. And I remember telling him, he would always tell me to come sit. They have like a Christian court where Christians sit, you know, in the prison. There's like the gangs sit at certain tables and the Muslims have a table. The Christians have a table. And he wanted me to come sit at the Christian table. And I would always tell him, listen, man, I come with a lot of baggage. So I don't want to sit at your court, man. You don't want me to sit at your court. And so that was a big thing. I wasn't trying to change my life or move away from my gang identity. so then I began reading with him and going to Bible studies. And I'll never forget, really, the beginning of my journey was I saw this big book at a Bible. I went to Bible study with him and he had this big book he would always carry and it wasn't the Bible. So I was like, all right, well, I get it. The Bible, the dictionary. I thought I knew all the big books that were out there. And I said recently at a conference, I just have to share, I shared a little quip. said, I like big books, I cannot lie. And it's just the reality, you know? It's been a reality in my life. so I saw that the concordance, was a Bible concordance. And I was like, what is that? And he said, well, this book will show you every word in the Bible. It'll show you how to translate the words into Hebrew and the Greek. And I'm like, what in the world? I need to get my hands on that book. And I went back to my cell and I... just began doing like these little word studies. And in the midst of doing the word studies with that Bible concordance, I began to grapple with the historical truth of Jesus Christ. And man, I'll tell you, I started, know, obviously the first question for me, I'll never forget the night sitting in my prison cell, I went to a Bible study and actually before this question, the first thing that I had a problem with God, if God exists, A loving, gracious God that gives all these people all these blessings, these things they pray for. Why does my life look like this? Why was I born into a situation like this? Man, something must be wrong for me from the get -go. And that was a problem for me that couldn't be explained to me why my life was such a mess. And I went to a Bible study and I still have the notes, which that's why again I mentioned saving notes. I still have the notes from that Bible study that night. and I think 2004, and they talked about Israel going into Egypt and being formed by God in Egypt, that what God did to Joseph was not meant for bad, but for good. And I wrestled with that that night. And I said, you know what? That makes sense. That makes sense that if God was building me up, again, it's still all about me. If God was building, if God was using my experiences to build me up for a blessing, then I can sit with that. If that's true, I can sit with that. That could be a logical explanation as a biblical basis for it. Obviously, he did that with these historical people. And it began to kind of settle my emotions a bit where with, you know, I wasn't so angry at God. There can be an answer to this. And so I took the concordance. went back to my cell. Most likely, I mean, as you get to know me, Luke, you'll realize I'm If you tell me to study something or think through something, I'm not going to put it out for five months. I'm gonna do this this week. I'm gonna shut down everything in my life and I'm gonna figure it out. Obviously then I had a lot less to shut down. so I sat there and I went back to my cell and I said, if this is true, if Christianity is true, then that means Jesus rose from the dead. So now let's play around with this idea. And I began to pick it apart. I began to say, okay, so Romans stole the body. Think of every possible option. to the resurrection, defy the resurrection or to prove the resurrection. And that night in my cell, I remember getting on my hands and knees and saying, that's obviously what I thought was the right thing to do. And I just said, God, think this is true. I think Jesus rose from the dead and that changes everything I thought I knew about life. And then I don't know what, I don't think I knew too many testimonies of martyrs at that point in my journey. But I, for some reason, I was just inspired that, wow, this is true. And that night, I mean, if the resurrection of Jesus changes everything in my life, was that night that changed everything. And, you know, I remember I prayed and I asked God, you know, guide me in the right direction. I don't want to believe lies. And I went out to the yard the next day and I just said to the guys in the yard, I said, I think I'm ready to become a Christian. and they all laughed. It was a big joke. You know, it's not a gang initiation. You don't got to jump in. And we prayed, we cried. you know, obviously there's, I always think about this, that there's people that have different perspectives on where your journey begins, right? So for some people, my journey still hasn't begun because I have to, you know, get dunked certain feet deep and say a certain thing, you know, in my life. And that hadn't happened at that moment. Obviously, I think I waited about three weeks and then they did a prison baptism. So, yeah, you know, Honestly, I bumped into this resurrection story of Jesus and the concordance really blessed me. I began to just devour, you know, and I talk about that in my book. mentioned I read the story of, I think it was Ezekiel, one of them, Ezekiel Jeremiah was given a scroll and they were told to eat it and it was sweet and it was bitter and the bitter part for me began to be, I really do have to die to myself. I really do have to move away from, you know, it all being all about me. And so then, actually to kind of speak to that, I began to obsess about dying to myself, right? So then I began to, you know, now I have this work to do, so much so that I bumped into forgiveness and I was like, ready to put it all down. Like, I don't know, forgive your enemies. I mean, that's, I don't even want to forgive some of my friends, forget forgiving my enemies. And, you know, that was an issue. And the man that led me to Christ, I always appreciate this, that he said to me, You're trying to put too much of you into it. You're making it all about you again. He said, just let God do his work and stop trying to figure out forgiveness. That was me, I was like trying to figure it all out. Like, how does this work? And he said, I was all worried about how I was going to act when I got out of prison. And he was like, you're really stressing yourself out. I had like a timeline on how I was gonna get married and when I was gonna be able to have sex because that obviously is important to a young man in prison. you know, misguided young man at that. So, you know, it really just began this change. And I would say that from that moment, that night in my cell and the next day praying in the yard, I began to feel that satisfaction of chasing after something that at that point seemed real, very real to me. And, you know, I would always tell people Jesus didn't show up in my cell. He didn't talk to me. He didn't sit on my... My nice little toilet, it was clean, so it would have been appropriate, he didn't do that. He was through the truth, through my mind and my heart, wanting to know truth and doing the work of, I'd say, chasing after knowledge, as you highlighted before. And yeah, that's where I'm at. I'm still there. I'm still living that life. Amazing. I am. Did you ever watch the TV series Game of Thrones? Yeah, I mean, it's a totally. I mean, totally sort of non -Christian storyline, but you've I imagine you've heard about it. Have you heard about it? you what, I'm so picky with TV shows and I've heard people allude to Game of Thrones. Now that you're mentioning it, obviously I'm sitting here saying, man, I think I'm gonna have to watch it. But I don't know too much. I tune out, when people talk about Yeah. it's a, I mean, will consume a whole lot of your time to watch it, but there's this, there's this awesome, essentially there's a family and, you know, there's brothers and sisters in the family and, and there's, you know, warfare going on between different tribes and what, there's the, one of the brothers who's the older, one of the older brothers who's a real like, you know, he wants to control things himself all the time. and then his younger brother who ends up becoming sort of almost like the sort of SIA, ends up in a wheelchair through, a series of things, but he was sort of the, like the wise one. And there's this scene right at the end where the, the older one says to the younger one is like, you know, I'm sorry, I, I should have been there when, the incident happened and I, and I should have been there for you. And the young one looks at him and he says, every single thing that happened brought us to this moment. that's right. And it's just, it's your story, your story. And I mean, mine's the same. You look back in retrospect and everything that happened was very specific and you needed that to happen at that exact point in time. so, okay. So you have this moment in your, in your prison cell, you've had. Yeah. What a decade, at least of, background. That's the complete office of being a Christian beforehand. You have this enormous inward change, but on the outside, I know you mentioned in your book, you know, you still had gang tattoos and a whole host of other things. Can you talk about, cause it's funny, I've had this question from other friends as well who are, you know, not involved, whatever they're involved in, it feels like the total opposite of being a Christian. So you become a Christian. What happens, what happens next? How did that inward change affect the outward change in what your life was at that point? You know, I think a lot of it is attributed to that desire to examine myself. You know, we use the word authenticity and I think we use it too much where now it's, I don't think folks even know what it means anymore. But for me, my desire was to be authentic. It was to, you know, not live a lie. If I'm going to go in a certain direction and I'm going to, something that my gang life blessed me with was an understanding of what it means to be a disciple. I was a part of a gang that was the gangster disciples. And being that was in our title, we would talk a lot about what it means to be a disciple. So when I began to be discipled by Christ, for me, was an, you know, I understood and I took it serious. I would say more serious than a lot of the people I saw studying Christianity in the prison. And the man Paul, by the way, that I was introduced to, he was considered, they used to call him the wake -o -wacko. Obviously I didn't know at that time why. He held to some serious end times views and you know, and he was very serious. was, you know, extremist, if you will, with his Christian faith, not in a violent way, but an extremist for, you know, the truth and wanting to demonstrate that at every cause. And that's what obviously intrigued me about him was I was like, this is like the Christian counterpart to the Muslim guys I was studying with. This guy takes it serious. I don't have to learn Arabic or Hebrew, but it would be beneficial, you know, and that was kind of his attitude. So I say all of that to say the way it began to work within me was I wanted to be honest with the things I was doing and learning. And I think that caused me, and I thank God, it caused me to have grace even today, where I had grace with myself. I knew that I wasn't perfect. I still have that nagging reality. And so I would grow and I would go through, there was a lot of growing pains. was misunderstandings. A lot of people obviously thought, people today I think even say things like that. It's a coping mechanism, as you've alluded to. or one that I used to get that I was always frustrated with. Sorry about that. Something that folks would say to me that used to frustrate me a lot was, well, you must be really sorry for all the things that you've done. And that's why you're really trying to run in this direction of Christianity and trying to be a better person. And to be transparent, that was not it. That was not it. And that's what bothered me and it caused me I thank God for those experiences because that's what caused me to really strive toward an authentic faith, to strive for authentic growth. To be honest with myself, I know in the notes you had shared with me in regards to the show, you talked about a time where I was going to Bible study in the prison and I ended up getting into a fistfight. that night was shocking to me because it was where I began to realize there was something greater working within me. something that caused me in the midst of putting my hands up to say, I don't want to fight. I don't want to do this. And I always wondered like, could people have seen that when they were watching the fight that I had like this moment? I share that to say that for me, it was an authentic growth process. And thank God, because today it's an authentic growth process too, where I'm examining myself. Today I can say it like this. In 2nd Peter chapter 1, it tells us things that we need to possess and increase in. And it says that if we possess and increase in those things, we will be effective and fruitful. I thank God that while I didn't know that Bible verse at that time, that's what I began to do. Just in a very simple way, grow in knowledge, grow in peace. And what was happening was I was gradually moving away from a world that was all about myself. And, you know, again, I I've alluded to this many times. I would not have at that time, think I would have just said, I was trying to do better. I was trying to go in a better direction. But now when I look back, that was not Mike Neon leading the way because I fumble every time I try to lead the way. know, and that was God really guiding me through his providence and causing me to have this desire to just to, you know, to borrow the phrase from our culture, to keep it real. Sorry. It's gone. So that was kind of my process of growth in the prison system. even today, hopefully you have more, all of us have more going on in our inward mind and heart than what is outwardly being displayed. Definitely. Mike, I've looked at the time and we've been going there now, and I think I've got through maybe 10 % of the notes that I was going to discuss with you, which is always the way and a sign of having a guest. That's a great one to listen to. One thing I would like to touch on sort of before we finish up is you have this, you have this sort of inner does, you know, obsession with seeking truth and that didn't stop. when you believe that the resurrection of Jesus was the truth. And it's continued to this day and I'm watching some of your content at the moment and you continue to, I forget the phrase you used, but it's like what you believe right now, I think is at this time and whatever you believe at this time is going to be different in the future. that's the, I think that's a sign of someone that's interested in truth is they don't become fixed in a view and they can't learn something new. I'd love you to share your view on, because I was watching your hope of hope of Israel and the resurrection video series and you talk about the truth. The biggest, I guess, way for you to synthesize truth when you have studied the Bible is the narrative. And I'm actually the same. And I got to that same point, not from learning from anyone else, but I see it as almost like a symphony and whenever a note is added into that symphony, that's the correct note, works. And whenever an incorrect note is added in, it stands out. It's, you know, it's wrong. So I think there's so many misconceptions around Christianity that you would be so well aware of because you looked at them, you know, when you were a non -believer as well and looked at Christians and thought, well, this ain't it. I'd love you maybe just to share for the perspective of Christians and non -Christians. How would you articulate what the biblical narrative is? I would say the biblical narrative is a response to God's presence and purpose. Where God can be found, know, God told us a long journey because he's, you know, it's God. shouldn't be this, this is where he lives. You know, that wouldn't make sense. So again, there is this long narrative of where God is and God has moved, you know, that's safe to say through the Old Testament to the new, we see a journey of God moving into his people, which is the end all goal. for his presence to be found within his people. You might say it was the very beginning goal as well, but God took us on a journey to realize that it's not about us. I think that was a theme I hopefully highlighted today. men, Old Testament, you've seen very clearly that if we're not given an example of the failure of ourselves, what we end up doing is thinking we can do it ourselves. And that's why we have the benefit of the Old Testament where we see the failure of man trying to say, God lives here because of what we're doing. And then we see this lack of righteousness that man has, and then God provides righteousness, obviously the blood of Jesus, and then God moves into his people through that righteousness. So I see this journey of God moving in to his people and helping us realize how and why he did it that way. And then, of course, now that he's within his people, What is the goal of His presence? What has been the goal of His presence? So when I read the beginning of the Bible, right, the beginning of the Bible, God starts with creating everything. However you interpret that, you know, I think that the key that we would all agree upon would be that God creates everything. And then He moves into His creation by means of these two people He creates, Adam and Eve, this storyline of Israel. He wants to be seen through Israel if, as we read in the book of Deuteronomy, if they obey the laws and statutes that were given to them, the people around them will learn where God lives and ultimately his purpose. Unfortunately, Israel does not do that. So then we see that men by their own efforts and do, don't do, that God will not live within that. And his presence and his purpose are revealed through the righteousness of Jesus and in how that is replicated in the lives of believers. So that's kind of my short answer. to that beautiful story that we see woven through the scriptures. Perfect. And how have you found... How have you, how have you found your naturally adversarial? You know, think initially in a, maybe a negative way, but I think now in a positive way, think being challenging status quo and challenging truth is a, is a good trait to have. How have you grown over time? I'm, I answer this question almost from a selfish perspective. So I'm really trying to learn from it, from you. How have you continued to seek truth and disagree with norms, which often puts you at odds with a lot of people around you, but do it with a warm heart and be humbled with it and be willing to speak truth that might offend, but putting your ego aside because I think in the Yeah, you mentioned your preterist and likewise, I think we see so many preterists have these personality traits that were very long on the intellectual side of things, but often probably struggle with the heart side of things, which helps us to get to true understandings of what's being said, but doesn't help us so much in our communications with people a lot of the time. Yeah, you know, first I have to say I died daily. You know, it's you know, that's a reality that we need to constantly be growing in and being honest with ourselves. And, you know, I thank God that you and others might say that they see that spirit of peace and that spirit of wanting to not be a know it all and rather being willing to seek and search and study and prove the necessary things in our lives. So. I thank you for that. And I think the key in my life has been to always be honest with myself in regards to the times that I was seeking truth, but I didn't have it right. So why don't we treat people the way that we would want to be treated? If that is the dictate that we get from Jesus is that we are to love others as we want to be loved. Why don't we have an understanding for people that, okay, they might not have it all together. You know and all their understandings and and you know, obviously what I've learned is well, maybe it's not them It might be me, you know, it's just been this authentic journey of saying I don't know at all I know that in moments in my life that I thought I knew it all I didn't and That didn't mean that I didn't know something and that I wasn't striving toward it. So it's treating treating people with the same way that I feel I would hope that people would have treated me in those moments and you know, and continuing to grow. There's not a day that goes by. think Einstein had said, you know, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know, to paraphrase. And I think that's what I've learned in my life is that there's just so much perspective. The Jewish faith, contrary to popular belief, was open to perceptions and perspectives that differed with one another. That's why synagogue was the place to be, you know, where we see the apostles constantly turned back to the synagogue. Why? because that was a place where thinking minds were found. as Christians, we are called to be a people that think through the things that we believe. So that's how I try to understand people. And I have this game that I keep saying I'm gonna get out onto the streets and ask people to play the game, but it's called, why can't we all just get along? And the key is to not always have to talk. Sometimes just allow people to express their view and within yourself say, why do I agree or disagree? And then maybe find the outlets that you have to encourage the ways within your thought. If I may share one other quip in that regard. When I studied church history, one of my favorite parts of church history is a young man in the time of Justin Mauter, well, Justin Mauter tells the story that this man wanted to be a part of a certain church, but not get married. And in that time that was Mm -hmm. It's like, no, you know, cause then we don't know what you're doing with yourself. we might say that in our times it's not okay either, right? That a lot of people don't know you, you know, a lot of folks don't seem to know what to do with themselves in single life. So, in this case it was okay. Well, you're going to have to apply to Rome and become a eunuch. And that, you know, that way you won't have the desires and you won't go over to fulfill them if you do. so this young man applies to the governor and he's refused. He's refused to be, you know, to become a eunuch. And Justin Mauter says in his writing that this young man was encouraged to find an assembly that shared the same convictions as him. So I share that because that means that there were some congregations in that time that believed that you could not be a single man and you had to become a eunuch within the congregation. But then there were obviously other congregations that did not believe that. And we become a people that are comfortable with that reality that there's going to be differences. There's always been differences, there's always going to be differences. And I encourage people, find people that share the same convictions as you and be encouraged and edified among them. There's time and place for dialogue and debate and the more we do that, think the more we glorify God. Amen. Mike, it's been so good to chat to you and I really appreciate you taking the time and thanks to your beautiful little daughter for sitting so quietly. I might replay this podcast to my kids and they can learn a few lessons from her. Before we sign off, do you to maybe just share, and I'll put links in the show notes as well, best places that people can find you and follow you? well, if folks have listened to the podcast this long, I appreciate them. I appreciate them for hearing out my testimony, allowing me to share some of the things that I think God has blessed me with in my journey. And I hope it's impacting and encouraging to others that if we seek, we will find. And that might not be the immediate reality, right? You're not going to just bump into the truth right away. God appreciates the journey. Someone had shared with me, a couple months ago that they have issues with God. And I said, God's okay with you having issues with him. So I hope that we've encouraged folks on that journey of growing and just growing through things and thinking through things and seeking God. If you want to hear more from me in that regard and see my journey as I kind of flounder in this Christian life and learn, unlearn, relearn different things, you can. go to powerofpreterism .com. Much of my ministry is found through the Power of Preterism Network, and we host podcasts and different programs. Then you can also, of course, visit the church website that I pastor at, the Blue Point Bible Church. That's bluepointbiblechurch .org. And if you go to that website, there's a bunch of different tabs and links that'll bring you to information about me, bring you to different podcasts. I have, you know, I often tell people, if you want to learn something about me, go to Google, which is scary to think about because You can a lot about me on Google. But Google my name, Google Preterist if you want to learn about preterism. Google Mike Miano, Judgment of God. You can find articles that I've written about the judgment of God. And again, oftentimes I've been blessed to have privileges like this where I can share my testimony and share different nuances that God has brought into my life. I encourage you just Google my name and you'll be blessed with some resources or visit those websites that I've mentioned. Fantastic. Mike, thank you so much. And you enjoy the rest of your day and I hope your daughter enjoys the Dunkin' Donuts that you've got prepared for her. you, Luke. God bless you. Have a good evening. And I look forward to further conversation because as you mentioned and as I mentioned before, I listened to your interview on the boroughs of Berea and we do have a lot in common. So one program, one hour is impossible to cover the commonalities and the different things that we probably could enjoy talking about. So I look forward to further communication. Definitely, Mark. think we'll need several thousand more to get through everything. You have a great day and great to chat to you. Thanks so much, Mark. Hey, just to, when we, I'll say, I'll hit stop now.