What's The Point Anyway - Living to Love One Another with Rick Welch

Luke McInnes speaks with Rick Welch fresh after his experience with Hurricane Helene and the profound impact on his life and community. They explore themes of love, faith, suffering, and the importance of human connection in times of crisis. Rick shares his journey from apathy to a deeper understanding of faith, the struggles he faced with doubt, and the lessons learned from experiencing suffering firsthand. The discussion also touches on theological reflections regarding the nature of goodness and evil, emphasizing the complexity of human experience and the necessity of community support. Rick discusses the inherent goodness of mankind, the complexities of faith, and the impact of personal experiences on relationships. He reflects on his own journey through divorce, the lessons learned about love and grace, and the importance of navigating disagreements with compassion. The discussion also touches on the intersection of politics and faith, emphasizing the need for love and understanding in a divided world. Rick and Luke explore the profound themes of discipleship, pacifism, and the importance of listening in conversations about faith. They discuss the cost of following Christ, the balance between protection and pacifism, and the necessity of understanding differing viewpoints. The dialogue also touches on the role of preterism in shaping their faith and the importance of practicing what one preaches in everyday life. Throughout, they emphasize love, respect, and the transformative power of genuine conversation.

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Chapters

• 1:50 Introduction and Context of Hurricane Helene
• 7:46 Rick's Journey to Faith: From Apathy to Belief
• 16:02 Experiencing Suffering: Lessons from Hurricane Helene
• 23:59 Theological Reflections on Goodness and Evil
• 30:07 Personal Experiences with Faith and Relationships
• 35:53 The Impact of Divorce on Faith and Family
• 41:58 Navigating Love and Disagreement
• 48:08 Politics, Faith, and Personal Beliefs
• 54:02 The Cost of Discipleship
• 1:00:00 Listening to Understand
• 1:09:25 Navigating New Opportunities
• 1:21:02 Preaching What We Practice

Transcript

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a minute or so and it uploads it. Welcome back to what's the point anyway, joining me today from outside Asheville, North Carolina is Rick Welch. Rick is a business owner and host of the wildly popular podcast, the bureaus of Brea, a show that I was fortunate enough to feature as a guest on. So it's a great honor to return the serve and get Rick in the hot seat with me today. We were scheduled to chat a month or so ago, but two days before our call Rick's hometown was completely devastated by Hurricane Helene. and he's been heavily involved in the rescue, rehabilitation and recovery efforts since then. Having just lived through an almost apocalyptic experience, I'm sure he's going to have an even stronger feelings about the question in focus on this podcast. So Rick, thanks so much for joining me. What's the point anyway? Hey, Luke. It's so cool to get to see you. You're right. It was a life-changing event. So what's the point anyway? Well, would say survival to start. then honestly, it's in my opinion, it's to love one another. It really is to love one another. I got to see people from all walks of life, different faiths or no faiths at all coming together. working together for the greater good of all mankind. It was a beautiful thing to see very, very few outliers that were causing problems, but most of it was very positive and still is. It's still going on here. So that is really, you know, it was very eyeopening. That is really an eyeopening experience. And I'm trying to say, and it was just, it was beautiful. It was, it really was very touching. I got to a lot of my atheist friends were you know, like Andy, Andy cried the other night when we were recording. I was like, yeah, we're getting to you, So yeah, Andy, I mean, for people that don't know the show, Andy's your, I mean, I'll definitely put a link to the show in the show notes. And it's a fascinating show and what I think you have 200 odd episodes now, but you're, you're obviously Christian, but your cohost Andy is a, just an atheist, you know, a staunch atheist. So it's a really interesting dynamic, but you know, the show is The show is based on studying the Bible and you just have Andy there as the atheist. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. It wasn't, it really wasn't intended to be that when we started it. It was supposed to just be a Bible study between Billy Kimsey and me. mean, he, Billy said, hey, I've been to church my whole life. I don't really know a whole lot about, about the Bible. I know you've read the Bible several times. Can we talk about it? And I was like, sure. And he said that he couldn't, he had difficulty remembering things. And I was like, why don't we record it? Then we can always go back and then I can go back to and I can listen to where I was wrong or how I've changed or whatever. It was very fun. then Andy, who is one of my great friends, he did all my sound for my films that I made. And I've known him for 20 plus years, 25 years now. And I said, Hey, do you want to pick up a mic to and just chat? There's no sense in you just sitting there watching us talk. And it kind of grew from there. And then it just, it went, it grew like gangbusters, which is funny. Yeah. It's, yeah, I listened to the first episode of it and it's, I think most podcasts probably if they go back and listen to their first episode, in retrospect, they laugh, but it, it, it, it's, definitely sounded like that. It was very grassroots. You just sort of put it together. And I think you said, I mean, you said then that you gave Andy a microphone, but I think you almost decided on that to the halfway through the episode. Didn't you? Yeah. like in the midst of it. I was like, Andy, do you want to grab a mic and just jump in here with us? just because I know, mean, I know Andy well enough to know that he would have some insight, you know, and Andy is not dumb and he's an incredibly intelligent person and, he's a thoughtful person too. he's very liberal in his thinking, which I know from myself being very conservative that he challenges me, but I gotta be honest with you. I mean, there've been times when I've learned some valuable lessons from Andy. Yeah. it's been, it's been good. He's helped me think like a human instead of a robot, you know? Perfect. So you said then, Rick, and I love your answer and it's probably a similar answer to why I'd give and it's a similar answer to what others have given it as well. But the point is to love each other. I mean, would have you given that same answer two, three months ago before this event hit and then has... Maybe you could talk through some of the stories over the last six weeks about how that's really solidified your worldview. That was not the truth for me prior to meeting Jesus Christ. It's not that I hated people, I just didn't care. Much like the atheist comedian Anthony Jezelnik, I was an apotheist. I had more apathy towards the world than I did care. Especially about others, no matter where they were in their position. But after I met Jesus Christ, over time, he taught me. Well, I met Jesus when I was 10, you know, through a Baptist church that ran a bus ministry, but it really didn't, it really didn't sink in until after I had children. Whenever my wife and I had children, and I started seeing these little humans that I wanted to train up, I asked myself, do I want them to be like me? And the answer was no, because I was not a very happy individual, you know, and so I was trying to understand as an American, one of our things is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, right? And so what does that mean? And so the more I looked at life, you know, and I went back to what I had learned as a child about, because I was raised in an atheist household. So I went back and going to church as a 10 year old and then being in an atheist household and that wrestling with is there a God, is there not a God, and what does it mean? It just, it hit me. you were 10 if you an atheist household? Right. My grandmother, who was a Christian, my grandmother, this is my mother's mother. She grew up in Western North Carolina back in the day. She has 13 brothers and sisters. And so they were a family that walked to church barefoot. You know what I mean? Like they're the mountain folk. That's real. That stuff really did happen. But she was a believer. But, you know, a very simple, simple believer, just there is a God, Jesus is a son, He died for our sins, and if you believe in Him, you'll have eternal life. Very simple, nothing more, not a whole lot of doctrine to it. You don't say the Lord's name in vain. You know, you don't put your glass of tea on the Bible. You don't, you know, just very basic. But whenever she heard that there was a bus ministry coming around and I wasn't getting any kind of churching in my life, she stepped in and said, hey, would you and your sister like to go to church? And so she got us on the bus the first two weeks and she quit going. And then it was my sister and I, know, on the bus. So I just got introduced to the Bible. I got introduced to the idea that there's a God, a creator, and then to that he had a son named Jesus that died for us. And I, it was a lot to learn and I didn't know much. I was very simple too. And so throughout the course of my life, you know, you've heard, I'm sure you've heard other Christians, the roller coaster ride, you know, of high, high mountain top faith and low valley, very limited faith. I'm no different. I'm like a lot of other people. But after my children were born, I got serious and started studying the Bible. And one of our, one of, one of my pastors, I went to several churches, but one of my pastors, pastor Philip trees, he had a class called, what is the Bible and how do I apply it? And I went to that class and it it rocked my world because I just had never really thought of the Bible as an application based thing. I just thought of it as ancient stories where we could learn decent morals. And boy was I wrong. And then I, you know, then I studied a lot from that point on and I just, developed a passion for it. I loved reading the scriptures. So that's how it happened. And then, you know, I stayed with a foster family for a while and they were atheist, hardcore atheists. And They taught, they were like teaching me how to argue against the idea of God. And so it was a really strange dichotomy because in my heart, I knew him and he knew me, but everything outside in my brain was, was like a cacophony of noise and doctrine and science. It was really weird, you know. Interesting. you mind me asking how, so you mentioned you were with a foster family then. Were you still with your parents when you were 10 and you first went to church? do you mind me asking what was the series of events that sort of led you to ending up? sure. Yeah, it was was a combination. My mom and dad, whom I love dearly and have a great relationship with now. Everything is wonderful in my family. But then they were struggling with drugs and alcohol. My mom was I have this little bug that keeps flying around me. I'm sorry. I don't think so. He'll be back. He'll interrupt me later. But anyway, my My mother and father were 15 and 16 whenever I was born. And so, and they're still together. They've been together all this time, but they, they were kids, you know, and that trying to figure it out, you can only imagine what it's like to be a kid facing the world with a child and, not having an education and, know, it was a struggle for them. And so a lot of times they buried their feelings, you know, in alcohol and drugs because they, it was hard to manage life and I wasn't taken out. This foster family was just because of it was a friend that I had for years and the family just took me in when things got tough at home. And then I just, lived with them. You know, I started staying with them on weekends, every weekend, every weekend I started staying. And then eventually I just stayed there. And so I call them a foster family and I call them like my family, even though they aren't, but look, their family that are not your blood. That's I've learned that myself, you know. So that's how that happened. But she was a very staunch atheist and by she I mean, mom too. And I was, she would sit in her chair in the den and me and the brothers would sit on the floor kind of like a guru sitting there listening, you know, coming down from on high, all of the reasons there was no God. You know, and I learned how to argue the point, but I wrestled with it because Jesus meant so much to me as a, you know, just as a believer. when, when God awakens you to that, it does not go away. Not, not the true awakening of Christ in your heart, that the Holy spirit just never left me or forsook me. And so I wrestled with those things in my brain, but always knew in my heart that he was real. Yeah. What would the, I mean, as you're a teenager, you sort of go into this church and you have these people who you love, you respect, and they're clearly clever and they're making strong arguments. What were some of the, did they say things that, what were some of the best things they said that sort of put doubt in your mind? as far as the existence of God. Yeah, mean, most... him? So you obviously had this sort of, you you mentioned this sort of feeling in your heart that you knew that you knew he was true, but did doubt start to creep in? Of course, yeah. mean, a rational thinking mind says I'm talking to a great man in the sky that I can never see, who sometimes we blame for our problems and sometimes we don't, that, you know, had to brutalize his own son in order to make things good. They had to teach me that I was a liar so that I could feel bad about myself. I mean, there was all kinds of arguments that made it, it made it valid to me that God didn't exist and we're all just trying to make up stories to feel better about ourselves or what happens after we die. Yeah, I mean, that was so what does happen after you die? You know, that was the question. So what is it? You know, what is heaven exactly? Because the Bible doesn't really define it very well. And so how do I define it if the Bible doesn't define it? And so, you know, as a child, it's like, it's going to be blissful and wonderful. And you get to see all the family and all the things that have already gone on before you. And, you know, I remember mom to saying, well, if heaven is what makes you happy, then dad's going to have a bar on every corner. In other words, that's what made dad happy, right? And so it's like, yeah, I guess that's true, but that would be wrong. And you know, so my little mind would get twisted very easily. But, you know, to say all of that, I could not ignore what was going on inside my heart. was more, it's, I don't know how to explain the brain heart connection. I know the heart is the brain, but at the same time it's like this guh, it's weird, I just, something about the name of Jesus Christ is different for me. It always has been. From the moment I heard his name to today, there's no other name. There's no other name that does that to me. You know? And Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, not, Christ is not his last name. That's what mom too taught me. Yeah. So you mentioned, I mean, I was similar and I think I took a, definitely took a very different path to you, but one of the key moments in your life was that led you towards faith was having kids. And I was similar. mean, kids for me was the first time that I really started to think beyond myself, which I think, you know, there's definitely a lesson in that. Do you want to talk about some of the key moments that led you away from faith? Cause I know you've had a roller coaster on a rocky journey. What have been some of the, the points that have made you really sort of question it and, and waver in your faith. I think suffering was the big one for me because there was always that question of, know, if he's such a great God and he loves you, then why must you suffer? Why did his son have to suffer? What's the point of suffering? Why do humans have to suffer? And that used to bother me a lot too, because I thought, why? Why do we have to suffer? And why are the only excuses, excuses, not reasons, but excuses are that, well, it's because of what the devil did. And it's because of how Man reacted. That's why we're in this big mess that we're in. And it's like, well, that's really not my fault. I don't know why I'm being punished for something that I didn't do. And you know, that, that was for me, that was a big one suffering. And why do I have to suffer? And why does my family have to suffer? And you know, if, if you are an all knowing, all powerful God, then why did you have to send your son at a particular time in history? Why did you have to leave it all beforehand? Why couldn't you've corrected it at the beginning? You know, all of those things. that made me think these arguments suck and I don't, I'm not interested anymore. You know, and that's that, that would happen to me on a regular basis. You know, it was always a struggle, you know, for me. Yeah. Have you landed on an answer to that? Cause it's, it's, I mean, it's one of the most popular questions in Christianity, I think. And I agree with you. think there's some shocking answers on it. where, what would you say now? So suffering is 100 % a part of this. And it was by design and it always was a part of it. You know, the real simplistic argument of saying, how can you know good unless you know bad? You know, people would say that, well, I think that's the totality of experience is that in order to know an all-knowing, all-powerful God and even, and by say knowing, we have limited knowledge with our finite minds. None of us are God. don't, we really don't understand his ways. We don't, but this is the path in which he set for humans is that we're going to live in this body of flesh and we're going to endure what we need to endure in this flesh in order to learn. I've heard people call it a testing ground. to me, this is the experiential side of faith. We have to have the body and the suffering. in order to understand the overcoming of it. And we know that by knowing the true overcomer. There was only one true overcomer and that was Christ himself. And by doing so, we follow in his footsteps. We take his yoke upon us and we learn of him. There is a purpose in suffering. But then you have to wrestle with the other side of it. All things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purposes. And if all things work to the good, that means including the suffering. That's everything. our experience as humans is part of the journey of learning who he is and who we are in him. Yeah. So, so sufferings, trying to wrap your head around why they're suffering has been one of the key elements, you know, one of the key elements, I guess, over time, that's led you to sort of question your faith. But then is it also fair to say that going through the suffering has been some of the most important things in bringing you back to the faith as well? Yeah. you could use what we've all experienced in this, you know, aftermath of the disaster of Hurricane Helene about suffering. Look, we are a nation of social media nuts and we pick up our phones and we stare at things and we make comments all the time. But when all of those things go away and they did because we didn't have access to the Internet, we didn't have social media capability. And suddenly you're forced to get to know your neighbor. How can you love your neighbor as yourself if you don't actually engage with them? Then it becomes ideas rather than put into practice. See, and that's the thing. We've become a nation of ideas and we've stopped the interaction with people. Steve Jobs created this technology in order to bring people closer. That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. It's not even close to being real. He was a tech giant and he was driven by profit. That's why he did it. It had nothing to do with bringing people closer. In fact, we all know that it made us farther apart. Now I can talk to you brother all the way in Australia, which is a beautiful thing. I can talk to my other family too, but there's nothing quite like going out and handing your neighbor a bottle of water when they don't have it. And then, or to have them hand it to you and to be able to receive. Jesus says it's more blessed to give than to receive. But you know, I, I agree with that. But do you know, it's also very humbling to have to receive something when you don't have it and you have pride and all of these things. So the suffering that separated us from all of the technology and made us focus on the humanity around us was such a huge lesson to me that made me realize I've got to get out from in front of this phone and I need to get out there and talk to my neighbors and talk to my community. It's huge. It's a huge lesson. Could you talk through some of, yeah, cause I got a few updates from you on Facebook. I'm, know, on the total other side of the world. So we only get, you know, I think everyone knows that there was this crazy sort of hurricane that hit North Carolina, but a lot of us don't know the details of it. Can you, can you share like some of the stories and experiences that you've been through and some of the most powerful that have really sort of hit you to the, to your core over the last couple of months? so first off, most people, I don't think they understand exactly what this event was. It was a category four hurricane that hit the coast of Florida, and due to the weather patterns and the way things were set up, it literally, like a vacuum cleaner, sucked that hurricane up really fast through the southern states into western North Carolina, and then a front that was on the top of the jet stream that pulled it up stalled that storm right over our area. So we had as high as 110 mile per hour winds. And if you can imagine standing around a bunch of trees, what that means for you, because it's blowing every tree around. But prior to the storm hitting the Thursday night, the 26th of, 26th of September, my gosh, time has flown by. The 26th of September, Thursday night, we had already got an outer band of rain from that hurricane. And so it already started flooding here. And what happens is when you get a lot of rain, it softens up the ground and all these massive trees and these mountains and stuff, they start to have little small water flows, you know, here and there, draining off the water. But then when the massive amount of rain, 30 inches of rain in six hours is unheard of in this area. And it was devastating because what it did was it generated landslides. It knocked over trees, which of course took out our entire power grid. I mean, it buried people alive. It sucked houses off the mountains into rivers and wiped out entire towns. I Chimney Rock, which is nine miles from where I live, was completely wiped out. Batcave, people were trapped there. Some people still can't really even get to their homes now. Businesses, completely devastated and lost. Some of them will never return. Some of them are going to try to rebuild. It basically, it filled up all of our dams to the point where they're about to break and they had to release some water. And when you release that much water down through these valleys, it's just absolutely devastating. And so it's affected me. It's affected my business as far as, there was a business down on Swannanoa river, which got completely obliterated. They're a gas company. And, so a lot of their bottles, you know, of these gases like CO2 and propane and stuff just went down the river. Yeah. had to move and so they moved into a building that I'm in and then we're moving into a new building to try to accommodate. But there's people that I know, know, of course, family that lost their lives, not my family. These people that I know, their family lost their lives and we're just talking about just a couple miles from where I live. And there's still effects after the storm. the it look, when you when you see these things on television, like I have, you know, you look out. you know, out in the Midwest and they have a tornado and you see it obliterated town. You watch, you look at the image and you're like, those poor people, that's terrible. And then I go grab a Snickers bar and a Coke and go back to work. You know what I mean? Like it's just, it's and yeah, okay. Yeah. I'll donate a little bit of money and send it. But when you're living in a devastated area like this, it really gets, it really gets to you. Now it's going to make me think in the future, like when I see other people suffering, it's like, I got to step up and I got to see a lot of people step up a lot of people and A lot of them, especially, were people who had already went through other devastation in the past. Because a lot of people that I met personally were like they lived through like Hurricane Hugo and Charleston were out of power for 18 days. I was out of power for 15 days. And so when you go through that suffering, then it educates you. Then when you see others suffer, you know where to help and how to help and you step up to help. You know what I mean? yeah, definitely. I'd like to, so I was listening to, and I'll put a link to this in the show notes. You guys, the Burrows of Berea, how many have you got on the cast? Cause it's a bit of a revolving cast. Yeah, so seven. Yeah. total, but we're not always there at the same time, which makes Andy happy because he doesn't want to record seven people at the same time. that's as it grew, I learned that that was a good thing that the conversations will shift and change depending on who's in the room. And so it's been good. If you can make it great, if you can't, there's no judgment. We're good to go. Even if it's just me and Andy in the studio, it doesn't matter. We're good. Andy has to be there because I pay him. You know, Yeah. So, this is, this is sort of related to a comment Andy said, but I mean, you said at the start that, the point is to love one another. And you really saw that over the last six weeks from people of all faiths and you know, Andy, who's sort of atheist and very much sort of, I guess, a humanist sort of worldview says that, you know, he, but he believes that man is ultimately good. The Orthodox Church, you we've all heard this idea of Christianity that man is wicked and sinful and deserving of eternity in hell. And the only thing that can make us good is Jesus Christ, right? I know you're a bit like me, we're sort of contrarians on just about every area of orthodoxy and that's cool. where do you sit on it? Both? I mean, you've experienced this yourself and you've already said that people of all faiths showed incredible love and compassion and humanity. Where do you sit on it sort of experientially and where do you sit on it theologically? So let me start with theologically and then I'll tell you about the experience. Theologically, if everybody wants to go back to the garden, the tree that caused the fall of mankind was also called the tree of the knowledge of good, not just evil, it was good and evil. So you can have a knowledge of good and mankind can be good and that's a wonderful thing. That doesn't necessarily mean it's right in the eyes of God. Our definition of what is good and what is evil is silliness in comparison to the holiness of God. So theologically speaking, thinking that mankind is inherently good, I would agree with. I have witnessed that experientially. That doesn't mean that it's good enough for God. It just means that it's good. And the knowledge of good that we have, like, that's good. That's a great knowledge. It doesn't mean anything to me. That is what we know what the standards are. As Christians, we know what the standards are. We cannot meet those standards. If we could, we wouldn't have needed Jesus to start with. So. God sent his son to solve and resolve that problem. And he did, and the person of his son. And so, yes, I think that mankind inherently is good. And I think there are outliers that are evil that cause disturbances in that good, but none of it matters in regard to my faith in Christ. My faith in him is because he is the ultimate of good and I am not. And because I trust him, then my problem is resolved. And that's... called grace and that's what I'm thankful for. But do I believe mankind is good? Sure I do. Of course I do and I've seen it. I've watched it and witnessed it. I've seen it my whole life. Are mankind evil? Of course they are. I've seen it. I've witnessed it and experienced it my whole life. So it's not about good and evil. It never has been. If it was, then God would have just left Adam alone, but he didn't, he? Exactly. I think it's such an important point that the knowledge of good and evil means can man do good? Yes, man can do good command to evil. Yes, man can do evil. and sadly we focus so much on the evil part that we lose. Yeah, I was listening to a podcast today from, I think it was a believer and a non-believer and I was talking how so many people have put off from this idea where you walk into the Orthodox church and you hear that you're just this wicked sort of repulsive person that doesn't deserve anything. And I think we miss the whole message of grace and turn it from something beautiful into this sort of carrot and stick that's not really, not really that desirable. Yeah, can you imagine if you walked into a church and said, listen, you all are incredibly good. You are wonderful. are, you are fearfully and wonderfully made. You are good. And I'm thankful that you all are so good. Do you want something better? Because there is something better. There's something, there's a better country. There's a better person. There's a better thing. It's called grace. And it's something that you need to understand in your relationship to the creator of all things. And that would be a very positive experience. Would people respond to it? I don't know. Possibly there would be some that responded to it. Most people respond to the whip. It's unfortunate, but we're very animal like that, aren't we? We certainly are. I'm going to ask this question, my tongue's in my cheek a little bit as I say it, but you know, I think so many from the outside, as a result of this look at Christianity as some sort of form of moralism and looking at you, you probably fit the bill of one of those nice guys that has it all together. You live in a house with a nice picket fence and keep those 10 commandments. Is that an accurate statement? Not a chance. That is not an accurate. Now, first of all, I don't have a picket fence and if I did, the trees would have destroyed it by now. But I do live in a nice little modest brick home with my wife, very happy, but I've been married and divorced twice and married the third time to my third wife. So no, I'm not your average run of the mill good guy. I've had my moments. You know? How long have you been, so you had, have you got three kids? I do. I have three children that are mine and then in my second marriage I had four stepchildren that I still have a very good relationship with. So I have seven children together. And then Holly, who's your current wife, no children together. don't. Yeah, she doesn't have any children and we don't have any children. Yeah, met later in life after you've made all your mistakes. Yeah. I've, I've still got plenty to make. I promise. You know, I'm only 49. So I've got a good, who knows how long the Lord will allow me to be here, but I'm sure I'll make plenty more mistakes to learn from. Yeah. so Rick, I've always blundered. And you're really, I mean, I think the thing that makes you so likable, you know, as host on the Burrows is how sort of open and vulnerable you are. you often speak, you know, I knew that you've been married three times because you're happy to say it and you don't sit on there and preach and say, you know, how holy are thou and all these other sinners around you and so forth. Yeah, yeah. You speak a little bit on the show about this period of time where in your life where you really, really went away from the Lord and people would have looked at you and would have had no belief whatsoever that you're a Christian. Can you talk a little bit about that experience and what was in your head through that period of time? Yeah, it was right after the divorce, my first wife and I, who we had our children together, it was during that divorce. I went through a five year, very, dark ages of Rick Welch, okay, where I didn't care about God, I didn't care about anything. I just knew that everything that I had worked for in my life, I had lost. My family was destroyed, my kids needed therapy from it. There was so much heartache. they then, might I ask? Because obviously you mentioned earlier the point where you truly took your faith seriously was when you first was born. So this is, what period of time is this after? there was, there was 16, 13 and 11 at the time of the divorce, which is horrible to think about. And those formative years, whenever they're really developing to, for them to see everything like, look, their home, you know, the home, they lost their home. They lost all of the family that they were surrounded by that they were living with. They lost their mom and dad, you know, and the love that they had or seemingly had. and we went to church together. They lost the church. mean, everything happened to them and I will never, get over that. That's something that bothers you and always will that my children had to go through that and, you know, deal, you know, and how, and looking at marriage and looking at family and looking at life and thinking, it doesn't last because I know that, you know what I mean? That's, that's a When you enter into a marriage, the idea is forever. That's what we put on it. That's the onus, right? And so when you see one breakdown and then my kids both saw, you know, me and their parents split again and get another, you know what I mean? Like, okay. So marriage is just something that you do temporarily. Family goes by the wayside. You do what you want emotionally. Even though that's, that's simple, a simplistic definition that's nowhere near true. I mean, it's so much more complicated than that. but it's still nonetheless, they lost their family. So when that happened, I went into the dark ages because I felt of course like a failure that I couldn't keep my family together, that I had made mistakes, you know, over the course of the time of our marriage that caused the breakup. you know, and those weren't even like big things. When I say big things, like there was no, like at the time, like, it's not like I went out and committed adultery or did anything that was harsh. was just. It was almost like a lack of interest in the relationship. We didn't, we didn't date or we didn't talk. You know, I worked all the time, you know, and so I wasn't present very much. those kinds of mistakes, you know, and I, I just, I had a lot of regret and I blamed God for it. thought, look, I've been seeking after you. Couldn't you have shown me how to keep my family together? Shouldn't, couldn't you have shown me how to be a better husband? You know, like how easy it was for me to put the blame on him. And I thought, you know, look, if you're sovereign and all knowing, you knew this was gonna happen. And frankly, I'm pretty pissed off at you for that. That is not cool. And so then I thought, you know, maybe he's just not even there. Maybe that's what's going on, you know? So when I see people like Nigel Taylor who have put out things like he went into a period, I totally understand that. And I think a lot of people do. I just think not a lot of people talk about it. Yeah. You know, it's almost like it looks like a weakness. I don't think it's a weakness. I think it's a strength. Actually, you got to go through that's another part of the suffering where you learn what it means to take his yoke upon you. It is he's gonna he's the one that drug me through that five year period. It just took me a while to see it. Yeah. How did you fight change through that period? Well, was before then it was like a surface type faith where we were going to church and doing the church, doing the things, you know, like making sure that the kids were learning about Jesus and Jonah and David and doing the things, you know, it was very surface. It was just just living life and doing life. And it was a Sunday expectation. But then after that, it became more of a seven day expectation. It was something that I realized that it was more than just a duty, it was about a relationship and what it means to have a relationship and how relationships are not one sided, that they're two sided. And the only way to have a relationship is to both be engaged. And I, and I saw how the Lord was engaged in my life and I, and I began to understand that. And I also saw how I kept denying that relationship, much like that was causing a failure in my marriage. Was also a failure in my relationship toward God because I was, it was very one-sided a lot of times. You know, don't blame my first wife for coming to that conclusion after so much time. In fact, I, I acknowledge it and realize, you know, there, there are more things that I could have done in that relationship to make it stronger. just didn't. Whether it regardless, whether it's out of ignorance or not, it happened, you know, the experience happened. And so. I learned from that and I realized that a relationship is two-sided and I've got to get involved in that. Yeah. Yeah. mean, divorce is such a significant thing. mean, I was a child of my parents divorced when I was, know, seven or eight and they were, don't know, they both listened to this podcast. I'm not sure where either their faith is. They're probably believers to some certain extent, but we were more or less an atheist family household growing up. But I've heard several Christians talk about it. that, you know, they're like, never, can't, I can't believe here. am a Christian man who believes in the sanctity of marriage and believes in God and tries to follow everything. And here I am divorced. Like it's a, can imagine it being like a pretty crazy thing to try to process against your worldview. Whereas if you're secular and you don't have faith, then I think you can justify a divorce because it's You know, we fell out of love, whatever. You know, we're moving on. I'm following my new desires. How, what then, what happened the second time? So that obviously shattered you getting divorced the first time and, and that started to change your faith. What was in your mind? Yeah, I'm not sure how much longer it was. You're like, hang on here I am again. Well, I was married the second time for seven years. And again, if you've listened to the podcast, you know, I don't disparage her. I divorced, I divorced her and for the reasons of which they are, I won't discuss it. And I never did discuss it. I had reasons and I did, divorce and to say, you know, I've made it very clear. Even my wife, Holly, you know, I don't just stop loving people. Okay. Like my love, I still have love for the first wife and the second wife. It's just, it's a different, it's changed because of the situation of my life. But, yeah, I just, could not remain married, to her and moved forward with my life, but made it very clear that my relationships that I built with the children, you know, were incredibly important to me. And so I still have them. And, I mean, I just, I saw my ex-wife the other day, they, they, she works at a plant farm that was absolutely utterly destroyed. And, And so all of us as neighbors are helping one another. And so I want what's best for her and her family and everything else. But the reasons for that divorce, without getting into too much detail, I had reasons for it that were legitimate. They were legitimate. Yeah. How old are your kids now, Rick? Your first three? So let's see. Great question. My son just turned 26, so that means my daughter is 28. My other daughter would be 31. Yeah. Yep. Yep. My oldest. She's married and has a child. Made me a grandfather. that's right. I think I knew that. That was recently, wasn't it? Yeah. grandchild, Melody, is one year old. She's absolutely adorable. And her father is six foot seven, and so Melody is in the 98th percentile for height. She looks like a three year old, and she's only one. It's amazing. And she's adorable. Perfect. What's been your advice for your kids as they grow up and start to enter into the world of relationships and marriages and loving and being parents themselves? Everybody has to live their own life and if they want advice from me, I will offer it, you know, and I talk to them, you know, if you ever need dad, I'm here. The biggest thing that my children know and that I wanted them to learn and I'm thankful that they did is that I love them no matter what. I'm going to love my children no matter what. And I know some people would disagree with me in the Christian faith. I could care less what they think. I only care about, you know, how I'm supposed to love my children and I do, and I try not to provoke them to wrath. But I also, at times, if there's something that we disagree on, I'm not afraid to tell them that I disagree on it, and they can disagree with me. And I'm not gonna tell them how to live their life. If I wanted them to live by my example, then I show them a terrible example in how to keep a marriage together and how to keep a family and a home together. So I don't want them to learn that lesson. I want them to learn the lesson that I'd made mistakes and if they can learn from my mistakes, that would be a wonderful thing. I don't know that they will, but because everybody has to live their own life and we're all at different stages of maturity and we all have different kinds of relationships. You know, my first wife is not the same as my third wife, just like my daughter's husband is not the same as someone else's husband, right? It's all individual experiences. just, for the most part, I just want them to know that I love them and I will always be here as their father. always. Yeah. Awesome. I, I, you know, I've had some messages with you over the last few weeks. One trait that you have that I think is a marvelous trait, and really, really rare, particularly in a world today where people just disagree with each other on everything is you have this incredible ability to, and you've done, you know, you've done on the podcast, you'll, you'll host guests who the total opposite of you, everyone who's sort of, you know, in your camp can't even talk with these people and you, and you can get them on and you can vehemently disagree with their position and yet be friendly with them, be loving with them and let them be heard. How have you, is that, is that a trait you've always had? And I mean, I know you're in business. I think you've got 40 employees. So you know, you're obviously dealing with a lot of complex things in that situation too, but is this something you've always been good at or if you had to work on it? I don't, again, I think pre-Christ to no, post-Christ it developed over time. It's a very basic idea if you think about it. There was a time in my life whenever I would be considered ungodly. I mean, I think that I'm, you know, I think all of us kind of live ungodly, but it said that Christ died for the ungodly. And that means that when he died, that he was aware that people at specific points in their path, you know, would come to follow him, but he loved them before they followed him. You see, in our, in our timeline, not his timeline, but our timeline. So if I'm living a life from zero to a hundred, if I don't follow him until I'm 57, then when I do begin to follow him, he loved me when I was ungodly. So when I look at people, I don't measure them, whether they're ungodly or not. I already know that they're ungodly because every single one of us are. Mm. does not matter. And wherever they are on their path, I don't need them to be at this perfect state of agreement with me because I don't even fully agree with what I believe sometimes. Sometimes I change and I have, but did God stop loving me prior to that because I didn't have all of the right answers at the right time? No, none of that mattered. What actually mattered was that he loved me while I was ungodly and he, can separate me from that love. And so if he tells me, The two greatest commandments that they discovered in the law, Jesus confirmed this, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, because it's like it. But what did he do? He told his disciples, there were two more. He said, they will know that you're my disciples by how you love one another, which are the believing disciples together. But then he also said, you've heard it said of old time, that you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say unto you, love your enemy. Mm. love seems to be the answer to every single walk of life, right? So these people that disagree with me, and I vehemently disagree with their doctrine, does not matter. What actually matters is that they're a human being, they're ungodly like me, and that it's quite possible that God has something in their life planned for that's gonna edify the body of Christ. That's how I see them. Every person I come in contact with. I do not know their path. I have no clue what their path is. They may have written 40 books, but it does not matter because I'm meeting that person right here right now where they are and who knows where they'll be 10 years from now. It does not matter. So I'm just, and guess what? The people that I disagree with the most vehemently, I still love them and I mean it. I really do. I really do. And it's because it's a fruit of the spirit. Luke, it's a fruit of the spirit. That's what we're supposed to be doing, you know? And so to see that happen in action really shouldn't be surprising to us. know, sometimes I'm, you know, I get challenged, you know, or they'll somebody argues, but I don't care. mean, that doesn't matter. These people are living, breathing human beings. And if they're my enemy, I'm to love them too. Rick, will you love a rapist? You know how many people have asked me those strange, hard questions, you know, are you going to love somebody if they kill your wife? It's like, wow. What do you expect? What do you expect? How do you expect me to answer? The answer, it's a really simple answer. If you leave it up to me and somebody kills my wife, I'm going to take your life. I'm going to kill you because that is good in my eyes. But that doesn't mean it's good in God's eyes. So it takes the Holy Spirit filling us with that fruit to bear that fruit in order to fulfill that love that he's talking about, that patience, that kindness, the goodness, the gentleness, the faithfulness, the self-control that comes from him. All of that comes from him. So I can't take credit for those things. Even now, whenever you said that, Luke, this isn't false humility. It's not me. And I've heard you enough and know you enough to know that it's not. I genuinely believe every word you're saying here. And yet so many Christians struggle. I think most would openly say it too. The hardest thing to do is to love your enemies. Sure. Yeah. I mean, we just went through a very crazy election in this country where people are so shocked at the outcome. And I'm not shocked. I've been in America long enough to know how things work. I understand the political theater and what's going on here. Can we be friends? People will say not a chance because we totally disagree. Well, that's fine. If you don't want to be my friend. because I'm a conservative, then I guess that's the choice you're gonna have to make. But for me, it's more than just politics. Life isn't just politics. To me, I think politics have become a form of entertainment, to be perfectly honest with you. I'm telling you right now, there's so many people that they're so engaged in this and it's life and death, man. And I agree that politics have a place in society. Government has a place in society. Taxation has a place in society. There are things that we need if we're going to try to maintain a civilization of some form with a self, you know, a defense and borders and whatever in order to make us a country. But, I serve a king. You see, I serve a king and he is the king of all creation and all nations are to come into him. And that's how I see it. And so. I don't really get too worried about all of this hatred that I see. I don't. I don't really worry about it too much. But at the same time, whenever it starts to affect people's pocketbooks and they can't afford to feed their children, which is the state that America really is in right now, there's, I don't know if people know that the federal minimum wage is $7 and 50 cents an hour, I think, in US dollars. And that can't even buy a coffee at a Starbucks right now. And so do you want to work one hour to buy a coffee at a Starbucks? Well, I wouldn't pay 750 for Starbucks anyway, but that's regardless, right? mean, whenever you're trying to buy a gallon of gas and more than half of your wage is just in one single gallon and you need so much to get to work. People are suffering financially because of inflation. There's a lot going on in this country. has nothing to me. It's not politics. I don't think they voted. My personal opinion on this, and then I'm to move on from talking about politics. just use that as an example of what this nation's going through is that people vote based on their pocketbooks and it's because they need to provide for their families. I don't think it's about greed. I think it's just about the basics. And after a while of not being able to afford to do what you were able to afford, you know, eight, 12, 16 years ago. Yeah. just, I think they voted on that and were like, look, enough's enough. We need something to change. And if this is the only option we have, let's go with a different option. And the majority of America did that. It's a big, he won the popular vote and the electoral college. It's obvious that people want change and that they're gonna take whatever they can take. That's different, right? So enough about politics. yeah, I think, I think Trump is the chaos agent is appealing for a lot of people, but it's, you know, the, the, the typical sort of conservative American Bible belt Christian see things very, very differently to the way you do, right? You know, they're all, they've got their guns and they're armed and they're ready to stand up and defend the, defend, defend the Republic. I'll take it you're a little bit different, a little bit different on that. I but I have to admit I bought a pistol now I didn't buy a pistol because of defense or fear anything like that a friend of mine a feather a fellow full Preterus friend of mine Kelly coy who is a he's an avid gun guy he has he he has a shooting range at his house and I just happened to go we had a Saturday we have a Saturday night get together every other week with some believers and it's so much fun and we we engage there and We went down to a shooting range and he was shooting. has these large steel plates hanging, you know, at different distances. And if you shoot and you hit that plate, it makes this ringing sound and it's so, it's so fun. Like shooting and hitting that, you know, it's so fun. And then I discovered a lot of my, a lot of my reasons for not wanting, you know, arms in my home is because of I've never really been trained with them. And I've heard so many horror stories of people getting hurt and I don't want to hurt the people that I love because I'm not because I'm ignorant of something so he's been teaching me how to use this weapon properly and it's been fascinating I have no interest in shooting other people at all whatsoever, but it's been I Like the engineering actually. I mean, that's my background. I love the engineering guns are a fascinating device But they can be deadly and so if you don't know what you're doing with them if you get the proper training Then you don't have to fear them but you know, there you go. mean, but yes, I am a pacifist. get a lot of slack because of it. but I believe Christ taught so much in that regard. I could go on for hours. he never said, take a sword and kill them, Peter. He never said that he told him to lay it down, but I, you know, I've had people argue with me, but he told him to get swords and whatever. I I mean, our carnal desires definitely want to pick up a sword and have a gun in our pocket to defend ourselves. But when I hear people use scripture to try to say, it's love your enemy. But if it's in this situation, then there's a car for that. I think they're clutching at straws. yeah. mean, again, it's the knowledge of good and evil at work. You know, we want to, we want to put our spin on it. What did Christ say? He said, if you want to be one of my disciples, then you must take up your cross and follow after me. And at that time, and when he's talking to those people in front of him, he was going to a literal cross. You know, he, might look at it metaphorically now and say, well, I'm going to the cross and I'm not going to eat that chocolate cake. You know, like that's our version of the cross, you know, so For them, it was very real. They were going to their deaths. And by the way, all of them did save the Apostle John. They all went to their deaths to share this gospel that we have, you know, 2,000 years later is still going strong. And so it's obvious that what Christ meant by that was something far more than whether I should own a gun or not. It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with how far I'm willing to lay my life down for the gospel. And that's really what it's about. It's about the gospel. And what is the gospel? That Jesus Christ came and that He suffered and died and rose again and that He did it for us. And that's something that all people, this should resonate with all people. And the only way I'm going to get it to resonate is for them to see that I love and respect them where they are in their path at this time. That's how I want to, that's the way I see it. And I've had the most response from it that way. And I've watched the Spirit work, not only in me, but in others by just following what Christ said. to do. yeah, it definitely works. I mean, I've seen it in interviews you've done with people that have come on that are very adversarial and then you have an ability to soften them. But I think you're right. think it's not this, maybe it isn't necessarily your ability. It's you allowing the spirit to work in you and do that. Yeah, it's I give all credit to God. The Holy Spirit does the work. And if you see something change, it's yeah, I mean, of course, you know, human interaction, you're always going to have a better interaction whenever I'm, you know, coming at you, you know, and I'm being more reserved. It's a little bit easier to talk to somebody that way. I'm not a threat. But when people come at me with a threat, I'm not concerned. I mean, it's I trust the Lord and whatever, you know, he deems fit, whether it's in a conversation or a physical altercation. regardless, whatever it may be. And so that's why when I tell people as a pacifist that I say, you know, they're like, you know, are you going to let somebody kill your wife and then, you know, do all of these things to her? And it's like, no, I'm not going to do that. Why? Because I have the, you know, because I also have this natural ability to protect my family. I believe God would want me to protect my family. Does he want me to end their lives? I don't think so. I don't think that's the point. I think it's to try to stop the evil where I can. Yes, but what if you're tied up there's always going to be a what-if that people want to bring up to justify their actions the fact is We're to lay down our lives for others and that is not an easy thing to do and you can't do it apart from the spirit So when you hear of these people that are martyrs, they didn't do it on their own. We all give glory to God That's why and you know as an atheist you can see that as weak There was a as a matter of fact in our household mom number two Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth and her answer was yeah about six feet of it And I thought interesting so the meek are gonna die and be buried. That's what you're telling me. Well, technically that's true They'll inherit technically it is true I mean he said to lay down your life those who lay down their lives for my sake shall find it Those who try to save their lives. They'll lose it It meant a lot to them in the first century. We have to you know, it in its context It meant a lot to them. So look at them as an example and understand what is necessary to share the gospel. You have to lay your life down and that is a hard thing to do and you'll never do it apart from him. You have to, it's with him, not without him. Apart from him, we can do nothing. Yeah, I agree. So how do you find, how do you find, you know, being a pacifist sort of in general too, and in your conversation? like, an example of this, I think is, I mean, I sent you the link and I'm glad you've connected with him. Steven Long, who was a recent guest of mine, you know, who was an ex or not ex, he would say post-Satanic temple minister, lives in North Carolina, grew up in the church. homosexual, like total opposite of, Bible believing Christian today. And we had a really great chat, on the podcast and you did a, you did a podcast series. I think it was eight episodes, with TZR and there might've been others on it on the topic of homosexuality in the Bible. And basically for eight episodes, you were, you, you disagreed in I mean, we didn't really find out until the end, but you disagreed more or less entirely with Tiziana. And then on the final round table episode, you gave your views on it, which were sort of the opposite of hers. How do you find this balance of being a pacifist and letting the other people have their opinion, but then also, I know you got criticism from some people of not defending the faith. How do you balance? letting other people have their opinion, but then also giving yours and knowing that it's not going to be well received at times. Well, I hoped that if people would actually get to the end of that series, you know, I met several people, especially at the Arkansas Eschatology Conference, and said, I stopped listening to your show during your home, your same sex in the Bible series. And I said, that's a shame. You should have listened to all of it because you'll probably find that I agree with your view, but you all need to learn a very valuable lesson, which is how can you argue until you hear their side? If you don't listen, you can shut them down too soon. You don't need to shut them down too soon. Tiziana worked very, very hard. And she is a champion of those that are in the corner, whether they be homosexual or transgender, whatever they may be. She's a champion for people that she feels don't have a voice or that need a voice and that need love. And she feels that they deserve the love of God. So do I. I think that they deserve the love of God too. That doesn't mean that we can change who God is. God has made himself clear, but You can be a champion for people and not necessarily agree with what they stand on So in order for me to truly make these make the case I needed to let her make hers She had to be able to state it all and I think Christians would do well to be quiet to be quiet for a time and to listen Because you need you can't argue a point if you just shut them down right now and say I'm right. You're wrong without even listening to what they have to say Well, they're not going to listen to you either. They're not interested because you just shut them down. And so I love TZ on it and still do love TZ on it. And we disagree on certain aspects of this, but you know, for me, I, I believe that God made it very clear. He created the family and he created the parameters of that family and what he expected of that. And then he also explained what was on the outside of the city in the new heaven and new earth. And that included those that were effeminate and of same sex desire. so what does that mean? Does that mean that homosexuals can't be saved? Have you lost your mind? This is a pathway. Okay. Do they have to change and become perfect for me in order to think that they're beli... Look guys, you don't know where they are. Okay. I haven't actually, I've only emailed Steven Long back and forth, just a couple of times and I intend on meeting him and I haven't even listened to the full episode, which I need to, I want to. And I appreciate what you're doing, Luke. Let me say that. I appreciate what you're doing because you're getting down into the meat of this. And I think it's a very critical thing and we need to do this as believers. We really need to get down to the reasons why we believe what we believe, but also not be afraid. No, don't be afraid to listen. And you're not. And I appreciate that. But I disagree with the outcome of TZ on a study and I love TZ on. So what do I do with that? Well, I explained myself thoroughly at the last. episodes of what I truly believe and I believe what I believe because of the scriptures and that's it. That's really what it boils down to but I'm not... If I have... Somebody asked me, what if your child was a homosexual? I said I will love my child. The end. I'm not gonna explain. Well you don't love God enough. you pal. You don't know me. You don't know my relationship with the Lord. I'm going to love my children regardless of whatever they are and they know that I will love them regardless. What happens with eternal life and all of that? Look, God doesn't have any grandchildren. We need to remember that. God doesn't have any grandchildren. God has children. That means that they have a relationship with God that is far more superior than what my relationship is to them. So they will have that individually themselves with God, not with me. but as their father, will love them on this earth as long as I'm breathing. So that's it, you know? So I'm okay with having these hard subjects discussed and I will eventually stand on mine, but I'm not gonna do it without listening first. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I think it's great advice. It's, it's not something I do naturally. I've actually learned a lot from you Rick. and I really appreciate you. Hey, I'm just, you know, I've just taken the good parts and thrown out the bad parts. worry. but no, it's a, mean, and you do, you see the fruits of it. There's no way I would have sat down and had a one hour conversation with a homosexual Satanist five years ago. There's just like absolutely no way. And then I did it last week and we had a great chat and we'll have another great chat. And you know, consider him a friend moving forward. I completely disagree with what his views are, but that's fine. Mm-hmm. Sure. it'd be a boring place if we all agreed on everything at all times. But, but yeah, I'm, I'm working on it as well. And, know, I mean, I've got family and I've got friends that listen to this episode and they're like, hang on, we know you and you haven't listened to our point of view in the past and you've shut us down. And I, and I take full credit responsibility for that. haven't, but it's, it's something that I'm working on. And the podcast has actually been really good for me. Yeah. And I didn't intend actually when I started doing it to go into these different topics and different people with totally different worldviews. thought initially it'd probably mainly be just talking to Christians, but I love where God's leading me with it. Yeah, and that's, I learned the same thing on my podcast too. You know, like you said, I mean, we just, it had a very grassrootsy feel, just very earthy, not programmed. We actually tried to do it programmed later and just culled it, cause we like, this is garbage. Let's go back to just having conversations. But you have to know. where a person is coming from before you can really introduce them to what you know. And they already, they already feel most people who are outside of the church already feel like they know the church because they've endured certain aspects of it because especially in America or in the Southern Bible Belt, you know, where everybody thinks they know God and they know the church because they've experienced it. You know, we're involved in their governments. We're telling them what to do that they can't drink on Sundays. You're like, we're, we're, we're doing all kinds of things like that. Okay. So We already know what the church is like, but what I'm trying to explain to them is that they have the wrong interpretation of it, just like I most likely have the wrong interpretation of who they are because I haven't truly listened. And so if I truly listen to you, then will you truly listen to me? Can we have that kind of conversation to where I can hear you out completely and not just come at you with this disagreement that you're mis, you know, you're you're a sinner and you're lost, know, just going with that and saying, look, trying to explain who you are in two sentences is ridiculous. I need to let you explain who you are. And then if you're willing to engage with me, then let me explain who I am in Christ. And I will. just, you know, let's try to have that sort of genuine style of conversation. That to me is, we read the Bible and The Bible is on like fast forward. It's like a one and a half time, you know, you know what I mean? Like we don't get to see the ins and outs. Like we see the highlights of a conversation. For example, Philip in the eunuch, you know, he walks by a chariot. He sees him, he's reading, explains who Christ is. And then suddenly the eunuch wants to be saved and he gets baptized and Philip disappears. You know, and that's what we read, but you don't know a thing about that eunuch. You just know that he's there and you can put two and two together that he obviously has heard of God and respects it in his reading from Isaiah. So he's been involved with this, the God of the Hebrews prior to this. So you don't know the whole of his life and you don't, but all we know is that Philip was placed on that path at that particular time to share the gospel and that he received it. But you don't know the whole of the conversation. It's not like it happened verbatim exactly as you read it. It's giving you the moment in that man's life whenever he believed, you know. Yeah. They might've sat down for three hours over lunch and had, you know, vehemently disagreed on each other, but Philip listened in to him and heard him out and made some really good points that helped him to see a new perspective. But we don't, yeah, we don't have those details. Absolutely. And I heard this explanation the other day and I loved it. And I would suggest to you for fun and for anyone who's listening for fun, if you've ever wondered like what was Paul preaching? Like we just we hear that Paul preached the gospel, but he goes in a synagogue and he stays there for hours. And all we hear is about a boy falling asleep and falling to his death. And then, you know, Paul raises him. but it doesn't talk about what Paul was really talking about. So try to imagine that Paul steps in, Luke is there, and that the book of Hebrews is what Paul is preaching in that synagogue. And just read the book of Hebrews as if you're sitting and listening to one of Paul's sermons. It is a powerful thing to do. It really gives you an insight into what Paul would have been preaching on, especially to those in the synagogue, right? Now, Time yourself and see how long it takes you to read Hebrews and imagine that that's a sermon that you just heard from him. And then imagine all the conversations that came after that sermon when they were sitting around making tents together and talking. It's not just, it's not at one and a half time speed. You've got to slow down and we need to listen to what people have to say. I think it's perfect advice, definitely. So Rick, what's a hit for you? Cause you know, you're a business owner now, you've got three your kids that have all left, have they all left the nest? All left the nest. And you know, you've got the Burrows podcast and it seems like that's just for you, just like an awesome outlet and hobby. What do you want to be, what do you think you want to be doing more of over the next decade? Great question. So this year is gonna be new because I've been invited to speak at conferences, which is pretty new for me. I feel like it reminds me of something my brother said. Are you familiar with the term imposter syndrome? Impostor Simdrome. Yeah, have you ever heard of that before? Yeah, I know, I know it very well. was, I mean, my, my sort of earlier life involved in sort of entrepreneurial circles. It's ever, I think that's probably the, the genesis of the word imposter where, know, you, but I'll let, I'll let you explain it, but I know the term. well, I'm going to explain it in business terms as well. So you're probably going to, this is going to resonate with you. So I was in international sales of medical plastics. Okay. So I went around the world, selling plastics to people who needed them for whatever it might be DNA sequencing, RNA sequencing, mass spectrometry, all of these areas of extra expertise that I know nothing about. So I'm sitting in a conference room with all of these doctorate level scientists that are asking me questions. And I just felt so out of place. And I remember telling my brother, I was like, I just feel like I'm out of place. And he said, have you ever heard of imposter syndrome? And I said, no. And he said, it's whenever you go into a room and you're around these colleagues and you feel like you don't measure up, you're the imposter in the room because you really don't know what they know. And I said, so that's what I have. He said, no, that's not what you have. You're just inadequate because you don't really know. what they do. But he made me feel a lot better because he said, but Rick, you have to understand, they asked you to come in and talk to them because your specialty is something that they don't know and you can share with them what you know. And then they can use all of that education with the little bit of education they got from you. And then they can get to the end result. He was like, so yes, you were inadequate in regard to their education, but they were inadequate in regard to yours. So you really weren't an imposter. You were there to have a conversation of education so that the outcome would be positive. And I thought, huh, that's neat. So whenever I was asked to come to these conferences, it seemed that the people who asked me saw something in me that they wanted to hear. so each one have asked me to bring, not necessarily something that's involved with the theme of the conference, but just what the Lord's laid on my heart, which I think is interesting that they've asked me to do that. So that's what I'm going to be doing this year. And if that happens and it seems to be a positive experience and I learn from it and I enjoy it, then maybe I'll do more of that. If the, if, if I'm asked to do it. Otherwise I plan on continuing the podcast because I love to study the Bible and to talk with my friends about it. And if it's a positive thing for others, then they can listen to it. And if it's not, they can not. And I'm okay with that. I'll continue to. run my business, but most importantly is my relationship to my wife and to my family. just, I want to be a good husband and I want to be, you know, a loving husband that's learned from all of his past lessons and focuses in and does my part in our relationship and keeps that relationship strong and that I understand the one flesh that God's talking about. My faith is important to me. I want to continue to learn of him and to grow in my faith. before he decides to take me out of this body tent that I'm in so that I can go to glory and just put my trust in him and to love my children and their children and just to be as much of a positive influence in my family as I can be. And then whenever things get bad, I want to be there too for everything. Awesome. We've, think I've just realized this might be the first time I've done it and it might be the last time as well. I've spoken to a fellow full Preterist and we haven't mentioned Preterism for the entire discussion. I've enjoyed that tremendously. Yeah. I mean, I love, I love what full predatorism does for the worldview of somebody who's a former dispensationalist. Unfortunately, I was raised in a culture that was very negative. And there was a lot of onus on the end of the world at any time and to always be ready. And to see that the world ultimately that I was going to be taken out of it and then all that were left behind were going to suffer immensely and that used to bother me to see that Christ not only did what he said he would do and accomplished it but also still rules and reigns in the hearts of his people and that we are beginning to understand now 2000 years later all that he accomplished and that you know, that we, are learning in time, exactly what he accomplished. And we're still putting that those pieces together to understand it, is one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever had. I suddenly saw the world as a place that's worth fighting for and that it's the fight on behalf of Christ to bring the nations in and to heal them. And that's what our job is. And that we do that one person at a time. is true. purpose, doesn't it? It gives me a huge purpose and it gives me patience. Something that you can't feel when you think everything's about to close. If everything's about to come to an end, you feel this hurriedness about getting the gospel out and making sure that they get a grasp. Yeah. Put the placards up. The end is coming. You know, be saved or go burn in the tribulation. And you don't have time to talk to too many people for too long. No, no. And although I think that full preterism is an important part of our understanding of the scriptures, it's not the only thing that we need to discuss. I mean, you know, it does, it should come up eventually, and it did in our conversation, but you know as well as I do that life is complicated. And sometimes we don't need to talk about that as much as we need to talk about how these people can get food and shelter. which is what I've been talking about for the last six weeks. know, and one of my quotes, I'm getting ready to speak at Blue Point Bible Church at the Advancing the Faith Conference. And that is, yeah, with Mike Miano, which you had on your show, I love him. I love Mike Miano, man. He is so, he's so authentic. And I just love that about him. But he, in that Advancing the Faith, In my quote, I said eschatology matters, but not to those who are naked and hungry. And I would, and I hope I get some amens out of that because it's true. Eschatology doesn't make a difference whatsoever in somebody's life if they don't have water to give to their kids. And by the way, we still don't have clean water in Asheville. mean, it's still, you know, you technically can wash your hands with it, you know, so that's a basic fundamental need in life that they don't have. Yeah, that's really what matters, I think. And it's part of the suffering that we, full circle here, it's part of the suffering that we, where we learn, we learn so much from. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the next step for, mean, yeah, I think we've, I think you and I became, I mean, you've been a believer a lot longer than I have, but I think you might've become full preterist maybe six or 12 months before I did. And it's, it's so rich from an intellectual perspective and also so clear. think once you see it, it's, I think it's one of the clearest things in all of scripture and scripture is not easy. You know, it is a It is a complicated book and with layers and layers of depth, but I think seeing things as fulfilled in that first century just makes so much more sense. But, but I think the risk of it that we all fall into, and I think the types of characters that have seen eschatology as being fulfilled all have similar traits and we need to, we need to be careful not to end up just making it an intellectual stimulation. and actually start using it to apply out into the world. Yeah, Joel Rosenauer said it best. my opinion, he said, preterism has a great mind, but does it have a great heart or a loving heart? Glenn Hill actually quoted him in one of his sermons and it just D it was deeply profound. And I agree. I mean, we're, we're an intellectual bunch. We're really putting in the hard work of understanding what the scriptures are actually saying. but we also need to learn how to put it into practice. Mm. And I had a, I had an old black man that was very influential in my life. In my early twenties, when I first started with my children and I started getting serious about my faith. And he said something to me that has stuck. said, I don't ask you if you can practice what you preach. I ask you if you can preach what you practice. And it really, really made a lot of sense to me. It's saying the same thing, but it's just twisting it around and really putting the onus on me. And so it really made me think about our faith in practice more than just, you know, in fundamental understanding, you know? So, yeah, and I think that preterism as a whole is, it's a wide array of intellectuals that are thinking about it from way, very different perspectives, whether you're covenant creationist or if you're an individual body view or a corporate body view person. We see that there are specific divisions within predatorism that they cannot agree. And I don't, I'm not really sure how they can agree, but I also see like at the Arkansas eschatology conference, I saw people that were just getting along, you know, and I've met many people across these. Yes, social media is weird, but when you're face to face, things are quite different. It's people need to know that. Just because you're a keyboard warrior doesn't mean that everybody in the world is in practice. Whenever we meet people, there's a little bit different. It's the same way as that after living after a disaster and having a believer and non-believer, you know, going and carrying water into a neighborhood that doesn't have it. know, it practices a little bit different. So I think, I think we're all going to be okay. I do. think God revealed it when he decided to reveal it in time and I just trust in him and I don't lean on my own understanding. my own understanding, in all my ways I acknowledge him and he directs my path. Awesome. Well, Rick, thanks so much for your time. I've really loved it. And I think a lot of people are gonna enjoy listening to this, because you sit there as the host and give you a little snippets here and there, but it's been good to actually have, know, hear you open up and talk a bit more about what's guided, you know, what's guided your worldview and how you're seeing things and how you're applying it. So. Here's to more preaching what we practice. Yeah, and same to you. And listen, I want to tell you, Luke, I remember when I saw your picture and the What's the point? Is it anyway, little logo you made and I was so excited. I was like, Yes, I love this. You know, I'm so glad that you're doing it. And I appreciate the work that you're doing for the kingdom and just keep on trucking. You're doing a great thing. And just keep being open and listening to people and never stop sharing your faith. It's a wonderful thing. Appreciate it, Rick. Thanks so much, mate. We'll chat soon. Thanks brother.