What's The Point Anyway?

What's The Point Anyway - Coming Home to Yourself with Ash Butterss

• Luke McInnes

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In this conversation, Ash Butterss shares her transformative journey from addiction to recovery, emphasising the importance of self-discovery and personal growth. She reflects on her past struggles with substance abuse, the impact of her upbringing, and the defining moments that led her to seek change. Ash discusses the significance of family communication and the lessons learned throughout her recovery process, ultimately highlighting the journey of coming home to oneself. Ash shares her transformative journey from addiction to recovery, detailing her experiences with alcohol, the impact of a silent retreat, and the pivotal moment that led her to seek help. She discusses her time in rehab, the challenges of early sobriety, and the importance of faith and a higher power in her recovery process. Ash emphasises the significance of self-discovery, personal accountability, and the desire to help others through her experiences. She discusses the role of suggestions in AA, the significance of morning routines, and her evolving understanding of God as love. Ash also reflects on the reality of relapse, the importance of staying engaged in recovery, and her future aspirations in coaching and personal development.

Check out all of Ash Butterss content at her website https://www.ashbutterss.com/.

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for it to upload. Yeah. Are you on Riverside? Yeah. Yeah. Welcome back to What's The Point Anyway. Joining me today from local Melbourne is Ash Butters. Ash is a maker of a mentor, keynote speaker and wellness consultant. But these are just terms that she has only developed over the past four years after hitting rock bottom at the beginning of 2020. She battled drug and alcohol addiction, eventually checking into rehab and an AA program, but thankfully has been totally sober for almost five years now. And in that time has completely rebuilt herself. She's the host of the Unedited Woman podcast and now works full-time on her own venture that runs transformative programs for women providing physical, emotional and spiritual makeovers. We actually grew up around the same area, we're the same age and share lots of mutual friends. But as far as I know, this is our first time speaking to you Ash. And I'm really excited for the conversation. Thanks so much for joining me. As I said, I'd love to get it started with asking you the question, what's the point anyway? Luke, thank you so much for the introduction and thank you so much for inviting me onto your show. I absolutely love the concept of this podcast and I can't wait for our conversation today. So what is the point anyway? That is a phenomenal question and I'm going to be really honest, I hadn't prepped for it, but you know what? The first thing that comes to mind, which is my most authentic answer is the point is to come home to yourself. That's really... The journey that I'm on and that I have been on for the last, you know, almost five years. And it's the journey that I guide my clients on as well. It's really just this journey of coming home to yourself. And I think that's really what we're all here to do as part of the human experience on this earth. Perfect. It's a great answer now. think, you know, listening is, I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts and I think it was first introduced to you via your recording with Ryan, who was also a guest on the show. And it's been, it seems like you're in such a great spot at the moment. How do you think you would have answered that question in like 2019? Ooh, that's a big one. How would have I answered the question, what's the point anyway? You know, back in 2019, for those who are probably not familiar with my story, which I'm sure is many people who are listening along here today, to give a little bit of context to the oof that I gave five years ago, my life looked really, really different. know, Luke, as you shared in the introduction there. Five years ago, I was in the depths of my addiction, battling drug and alcohol addiction and really living a double life in many ways because from the outside looking in, I actually gave off the impression that I was living this, you know, quote unquote, perfect life that I was really happy. And the way that I defined success at that time was by ticking the boxes. You know, I talk about the boxes that we tick in life. And what that looked like for me growing up in the environment that I grew up in was you go to university, you get married, you buy a house, you have the dream job and so on and so forth. And I was doing that, Luke. was, you know, tick, tick, tick. And yet the problem was what people didn't see was that nothing ever was enough. And what I mean by that was. I was doing all of that stuff to try and make myself feel whole, to try and make myself feel complete. And what you couldn't see underneath it all was this deep sense of unworthiness that I carried around. And this is something that I can relate back to feeling since I was a really little girl. You know, I feel like I woke up with this not enoughness, woke up was born into, I should say, this feeling of just never being good enough. And you know, they're could have been a number of reasons why that was my experience or my lens, my reality. And I'm not pointing the blame or the finger at anybody in my life. I've done a lot of work on, you know, in therapy and starting in rehab and going down that journey. I've really unpacked a lot of this stuff. And I've come to realize that, you know, my life experience needed to be exactly what it was for me to be the person that I am today. So I've made, I've got a lot of peace around that, but that doesn't discount that. For a really long time, I had no idea what the point was. I thought the point was more, you know, more money, more success, more validation. I was on this constant hamster wheel of life trying to fill this God shaped hole in my soul. And yet the hole, the void just continued to get wider and wider and wider. and I would continue to move the goal posts. And you know, I still do this even today in sobriety. You know, I'm not sitting here saying, you know, I'm nearly five years sober and I've got it all worked out. Like I still, you know, I remember at the start of the year, I'd just done my Ted talk and that was a huge, you know, life goal of mine. And I was sitting in a room with some other coaches and my goodness, my inner critic was having a field day. Like it was insane. I was like, you know, the inner monologue was like, you're a piece of shit. You're not enough. You're, you're like the weakest smallest person in this room. Like it was crazy. The stuff that was coming up for me. But the really cool thing about that is that today I have an awareness when the stories start to come up, when the, when the tape starts to roll and I can implement tools and strategies to be able to bring myself back to reality pretty quickly. I don't get swallowed up by it and consumed by it. And I don't need to reach outside of myself to. soothe and ease and quieten that voice anymore. I can work on that stuff. But yeah, there's been such a huge shift in my perception and my outlook in life, which has enabled me to grow into the person that I am today. Yeah. What do think you've learned about yourself the most over the last four years? that I'm not a piece of shit. my goodness. What have I learned about myself? You know, one of the funniest things was in the early days was I actually thought that I was a really extroverted person. And if you had met me back then, you would have said the same. Yeah, like I was, was a party girl and you know, like I had a lot of friends at school and I did really well at school. And you know, again, like always giving off this persona that had it all together when I really, really didn't. And it's been funny in the last five years, what's been revealed to me is I actually really love my own company. I really love being alone and I really love just stillness and quiet. And I had no idea, I think because I spent so many years running away from myself because I inherently really didn't like the person that I was because I had so much shame because I had so many negative core beliefs that really dictated and ruled my life. But now that I've done the work to really unpack a lot of that stuff and to let go of the shame, I actually really love the person that I am today. And I can sit with myself really comfortably, which I know can be a really challenging thing for a lot of people. And that's again, something that I really help my clients with. It's something that needs to be developed and practiced. I don't think it's necessarily something that you just inherently know how to do, but That's what's been revealed to me is that I'm actually deep down a really good person and I have a really good heart and really good intentions. I think I just got a little bit sidetracked along the way. Yeah. How, I'm interested to know, like when you, when you spoke about your life beforehand and it was more, I mean, that was probably, I was probably similar. And I think, I think actually the great sort of plague on Western society at the moment is just more, more, more. then everyone starts to realize over time that more never actually fills their cup. How did the drugs and alcohol tie into that? Cause you know, for from a logical perspective, you would say, okay, you've got this good career, you're married, you've got a home, you're trying to make more money. You know that drugs and alcohol aren't helping that. So how did that tie in with your sort of day-to-day experience? Was it an escape from it or was it just seeking more highs or? So for me, you know, I was 12 the first time I picked up a drink, Luke. And from that very first drink, I drank to blackout. And from that very first drink, I remember thinking to myself that I'd found the solution to all of my problems because that inner critic, that negative itty bitty shitty committee that was just rampant with inside my mind, I'd had that since about the age of three. So when I discovered alcohol at the age of 12, I was like, my gosh, this stuff's amazing. This turns down the volume. This quietens that inner critic. I love this stuff. And of course, the more I drank, the quieter it got. What I didn't realize at the time was that I was also going to get really, really unwell and, you know, be sick and all of the things that come with when you drink too much alcohol. But pretty much from that first experience, I just knew that I wanted more of it. And so I was a heavy drinker and a binge drinker from the outset, but I did, had almost like this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde thing going on where, you know, from Monday to Friday, I would show up, suit up, and I'd get the job done, whether that was in high school, you know, I was best friends with all my teachers. I was a prefect. I was music captain. I was doing all the stuff to be the good girl. And then on the weekends, I'd be going out. Like I was, I'd taken pretty serious illicit drugs by the age of 14. You know, and then that became a regular thing on a weekend as well. And I was partying from Friday to Sunday every single weekend, but maintaining the facade because I could pull it all together again and get, on with life, you know, during the week. And that pretty much stayed that way until 2018. So two decades, pretty much. that was sort of the way I drank and I used. There were periods within that two decades where it did get out of hand. I remember when I was 18, 19, I had run up such a bad drug debt that I actually had to reach out to my parents to bail me out of that. And at that time, we didn't really know about addiction or alcoholism or recovery and what was on offer. So I remember my parents took me to a health farm and You know, I went away for a week and I came back and I was drinking and using again that night. So, you know, we didn't have any education around it. And I went back and I just continued doing the things. And, you know, I remember at one stage I got into a relationship with a really healthy person, which was really new for me. And that kind of sorted me out for a couple of years. Things started to tame a little bit. And then I self-sabotaged and I blew that up. And then I did what we call a geographical and I moved to Sydney. all the while still keeping a job, still making everything look okay from the outside in. But unbeknownst to me, the disease of addiction, which is a very progressive, it's very progressive in its nature. It's quite insidious that way. It started to build slowly. And so it went from just being weekends to, you know, maybe one night during the week and weekends. And then it was a couple of nights. By the time I moved to Sydney, things were pretty out of control. but I was still showing up to life and doing what I needed to do. And then I ended up falling in love with an addict. So we were in this really codependent in mashed relationship where we would enable one another because he was using. So I couldn't call him out on that because then he'd call me out on my drinking. And so again, things just continued to snowball, but it was really subtle at the time. And so I don't even know if I really knew I mean, it certainly wasn't intentional. I just thought I liked to drink. I thought I was really good at it. It was a really fun outlet. It was a way that I could let my hair down. And what I didn't realize at the time, what I was really seeking was just that inner peace, that peace and comfort that I got every time I took a drink. You know, and fast forward to 2018, and that's really when things started to escalate for me. And this is where I went from being this party girl binge drinker to a daily drinker. And this is when alcohol really took a hold of me. And it was off the back of quite a traumatic event, which I'm happy to share with you. My brother-in-law actually took his own life two weeks before my wedding day. Yeah, and I mention it because for a lot of people, they don't have that defining moment where things shifted, but I really can see that, you know, I still to this day, it's so vivid. I remember picking up the phone and receiving the phone call. And in that moment, something snapped in my brain and I just went, I don't know how I'm gonna get through a single day of my life without alcohol, which had become my best friend in a way. It was this self-medication. And so that's what I started to do. You know, it of, again, it wasn't intentional. Yeah. your housemate as well? Did I hear that? Yeah, so he was really close. yeah, really close. was my my fiance's little brother. He'd been living with us for a couple of years at the time. And the three of us just did everything together. We were inseparable. You know, we lived in Bondi, we'd wake up, we'd go to work, we'd always go to the beach in the afternoon, go for a swim, you know, eat dinner on the balcony together. And we just yeah, the three with the three musketeers and So when we lost Dan, you he was 26 when he left this earth, it was just such a shock, like an absolute complete out of shock. We did not see it coming. You know, everything about it just rattled us completely. And my fiance at the time was actually still in quite a large amount of grief having lost his father just five years earlier. So there was already a lot of heaviness and this was just piled on top of it. You know, we didn't really, it wasn't, again, it wasn't intentional, but it kind of was a bit of a whirlwind because we lost Dan and then a week later we had the funeral. So we weren't at work that week. There was no structure to our lives. So what did we do? We just, I was drinking. And then the week after that was the wedding. And then we went on a honeymoon. So by the time I actually came back to reality, I'd been drinking every day for about six weeks. And I think by that stage, that's when alcohol really had its grip on me. And it went from being a choice to, not being a choice. And it was something that was just, it became a daily part of my life. And because my tolerance was so high by this point, I was drinking to black out. was the only way that I could really sleep and the only way that I could really stop. Like for me to be able to put the cork back in the bottle and say, I've had enough now, like I had lost the ability to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think, when you talk about, obviously had that crazy almost like two decades and you spoke earlier about, know, when you were, you had these feelings of sort of insecurity and worthlessness from the time you were sort of three years old, how much of it do you think was you were born that way with these tendencies versus learned environment that you grew up in? Yeah, so I mean, it's a good question. I think that for a little bit of context, I grew up in an alcoholic home. So I have a mom who loves a drink. I have a dad who identifies as an alcoholic. He's in recovery as well. And so alcohol was a big part of the environment to which I grew up in. And that's not necessarily what made me an alcoholic, but For people who don't understand what that looks and feels like is it's not about the booze. It's the uncertainty and the inconsistency of behaviors that come with that amount of alcohol consumption. So I don't know if anyone listening along who can remember being hungover at one point in their life. Now, when you're hungover, you're pretty short-tempered. You know, you might have had an argument with your partner the night before. There might be a lot of silent treatment going on. They were all the sorts of behaviors that would play out between my parents. Now, as a little girl in that environment, number one, I felt like it was my fault. So I never felt like I was good enough because mom and dad always seemed to be upset. And it was never really with me. It was more towards each other. You know, Dr. Gabor Marte talks about how children are inherently narcissistic. We haven't developed that part of our brain yet to be able to discern, no, this is an argument between mom and dad. This has nothing to do with me. And I was the youngest in my family system. Yeah, there you go, little tiny narcissist, teeny tiny terrorist as my sister-in-law says. And you know, so we do, we make it mean that it's something that we did. And you know, God bless my parents that they also didn't have the tools to communicate. in a healthy manner. You know, they both grew up in their own chaotic environments as well that looked quite different from one another. And then they came together and my parents loved hard, but they fought hard as well. And so there was a lot of uncertainty, a lot of inconsistency. A lot of times dad, you know, we'd be sitting at the dinner table and dad just wouldn't come home. You know, that, that saying you can cut the tension with a knife. That was like palpable within my family system when I was growing up. So I do think it had a lot to do with the environment that I grew up in. Again, not blaming my parents for that. They did the best with what they had. I truly do believe that. But you know, I do think that things may have looked a little bit different if I had, as a child, had my needs met, because I believe that a lot of these core wounds are created out of that inability to have our needs met. However, that... for a child. So yeah, I do think it had a lot to do with my environment. Some people do believe that alcoholism and you know, the because a lot of people that identify as as alcoholics will will also share this feeling of not enough. And that you know, some people are of the belief that that it's genetic. And then some people will say, Absolutely not. So I, I'm more along the lines of I do think it's genetic. Like you can shake my family tree and alcoholics are going to fall out of it left, right and center. But you know, I think, yeah. there's personality traits that lead someone. It doesn't mean you're gonna, it's not like you're born an alcoholic, but if you've got a more sort of intense and addictive natural personality, then if you put a drink in front of you, you're probably more likely to have 20 of them rather than two. Yeah, and what do they say like genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger. I really yeah, I think that that's that's gotta be me for sure. So I loved when you're on the, when you did the interview with Ryan, and I mean, people that know you will know your backstory. People have never heard of you. What won't know the part that obviously your dad went through a really sort of high profile, you know, spiraling out of control. And at his peak was, you know, one of maybe the most high profile successful businessmen in all of Australia as well. and I love how open and humble both of you guys have been in telling your story and sharing that story about it. What have you learned about, I know you're not a parent yourself yet, but you know, think a lot of people think, you know, what do we need to give our kids? You know, we give them a, a nice house, a nice school, you know, live in a nice area. mean, you had all of that. but that clearly isn't what meets the needs of a child. Absolutely not. That's, know, it's been really interesting. I lived in Sydney for eight years and I at times was moving in circles with some of the wealthiest people in Australia. You know, I won't mention the names, but like you never need to worry about money ever again in your life. And they were some of the most miserable people that I've ever come across. And so certainly to your point, it's not about Can you hear me? You've just dropped out, but... Hey! You there? Yeah, I just sent you an email, so. Yeah, so you cut out when you said, I lived in Sydney for eight years. Yeah. Yeah, I'll just edit it back in. Yeah, that's fine. Yes. Okay, cool. Okay, are we are we rolling? Yes, we are. Okay, So I lived in Sydney for eight years. And during that time, I spent, you know, in social situations, I was with some of the wealthiest people in Australia. And I'm telling you right now, Luke, they were also some of the most miserable people. in Australia. And so to your point, it's got nothing to do with the material things, you know, as long as a child's basic needs of like food and shelter are met. I think the most important thing that a parent can possibly do is to be there, to be present with your child and to listen and communicate. Because I remember at the time, all I wanted was for my dad to come home for dinner. Mm. And I've got this theory. I'm not sure if I shared it on Ryan's podcast or not, but I want to, I'll share it with you now. Cause I swear to God, I'm onto something here. I have a theory that if a family sits down at the dinner table at night, the two primary caregivers, whether that's two moms, two dads, or one of each sits down at the dinner table and has a meal without the television on, and you actually engage and communicate and actively listen. Then I think that your children have a far greater chance. of growing up to become healthy functioning adults. That wasn't my reality. It was very rare that we would have an experience like that. And yet when I look at all of my friends who seemingly went down the right path versus those of us who perhaps got a little bit waylaid, a little bit sidetracked, that seems to be a common theme throughout is whether or not they had that family system and that act of sitting down at the dinner table and having a conversation with their parents every night. You know, I could never go to my parents and tell them what I was doing. My mom, I remember when I was from a really young age, like I remember I would get home from, I'd go to my boyfriend's house when I was 14, 15 years old. And of course I was drinking and I would get home and my parents would breathalyze me. Like it was so full on. And so I just figured out ways to become a really good liar. You know, there was like the dishonesty and the manipulation, like they're two character defects that I've really had to work on since getting sober. And I became aware of this behavior because here's the thing about dishonesty and manipulation. When you're really good at it, you don't know that you're doing it. You know, like, and then you start to trick yourself into thinking that you're just a really nice person and that you just do all of this stuff for people. And it's absolute bullshit. Yeah. people pleasing is inherently dishonest behavior because what you're doing is you're saying yes to something you really want to say no to. And then you develop a resentment towards that person because you've had to do something you didn't want to do. And then this person's wondering why you've got the shits with them. Like it's so much easier to just be really honest and just to be clear with your intentions. You know, I people will, people feel a lot safer when they know that you're showing up honestly and authentically. So these are all things that I've had to learn about myself. yeah. you know, all these things that have been revealed to me over time. And I'm sure that there's going to be much more that will be revealed. You know, I think this is the beauty of being on a transformation journey and allowing the layers to continually peel back is like, just get to learn more and more about myself and how I can show up and be a better human every single day. Awesome. So I'd love now maybe to move from that into this journey of, I guess, Ash Butters post 2020. So you obviously had, mean, it was a really funny time for you to snap out of it, given what was ahead. But what was it, February 2020, there was sort of a set of incidents that led you to the point where you're like, no more, I need to sort this out. Yeah. So I can, again, I have a defining moment that I call my rock bottom. The interesting thing about that Luke was that it wasn't so basically what happened was my, my husband and I were really not in a good way. So by the start of 2020, we'd been married for almost two years in which that time we'd both been very much consumed by our own addictions. And I describe it as almost like we were two bodies living under the same roof, but we weren't connected in any way. And so it was very lonely and very isolating and we would fight all the time and we were very defensive with each other, but then continuing to enable each other's addictions. We went to the US at the start of 2020 on a ski trip. And I just remember by the end of that trip, I thought, I can't, I can't do this anymore. I can't be in this relationship. And I also blamed him for the amount of alcohol that I was consuming. And I remember that he ended up He decided that he really wanted to get clean and he wanted to go to India to do that. So he flew out to India on a silent retreat. And I remember thinking at the time. did it. I did the silent retreat. Yeah. But Pashana. Yeah. That was like 15 years ago. So I know that. thank you God. You'll have to chat to dad. He he's done that before as well. And yeah, and yeah, loves that. I actually really want to do it. Anyway, so he went to this silent retreat. And I remember thinking, look, in all honesty, I was like, this is fantastic. Because once you leave, then I'll get my shit together. I'll be working out every day. I'll be eating great. I won't be drinking because you're the reason why I drink like this. You know, it was just constantly blame, blame, blame. And what do you think happened? He got on the plane. Yeah, he got on the plane and I was like, all right, now I can drink how I really want to drink because I don't have anyone watching me. And I was actually down in Melbourne because my head office for the company I was working for was down in Melbourne. So I was in Melbourne that week and I was staying at my mom's house and I decided to stay the weekend so I could catch up with some old school friends. And I remember it was the Friday and the company I worked for, was some of us going out for Friday night drinks. And by this stage, alcohol had such a hold on me that I couldn't guarantee my behavior when I drank. So I was drinking alone. And so I remember declining the invitation to go out for drinks with everybody. And I picked up a bottle of wine on the way home and I was sitting at my mom's kitchen table drinking this bottle of wine. And I got a text message from a friend who was in Richmond and he said, Hey, come out for one drink. And I thought, I can do that. I can go out for one drink fully believing that I would just go out for one drink, by the way, this is the insidious nature and the, the delusion. And so I. went out for one drink saying to mom, I'll see you soon. And that would have been maybe eight o'clock at night. And what time do you think I got through the door? I am. Yep, it was 8am the next morning. All the while I had, you know, mum had been messaging me all night, where are you? I'd been lying to her about where I was. I had done a lot more than just drink alcohol. was, remember sitting in the back of the Uber, you know, the sun was up in the sky and I just felt like the biggest piece of shit. And I just thought to myself, I cannot do this. Mmm. for a single, like not another day, not another minute. I cannot do this. If I keep going this way, I'm not gonna be here for much longer. And it was in that moment that I realized I was the problem because my husband wasn't there to blame. There was no one there to blame. I had the opportunity to get my shit together and I went the complete other way. And there was so much shame, you know? my God, I can still feel it. Hmm. It was palpable and I walked through the front door and the look on my mom's face was just it was actually just she was just broken. You know, like it wasn't even anger. She was just broken. And in that moment, I made the decision that I had to stop. I had to make a change. And so pretty, pretty quickly, it was we actually called my dad and it might mean my parents have been separated since 2005, but we called my dad. Yeah. he was just around the corner actually about to walk into a 12 step meeting and he was there within 10 minutes and we sat there and we were chain smoking cigarettes at the back and we, we called a rehab and I, and I got admitted the following Monday. So, and that was the 24th of February, 2020. So yeah, I haven't had a drink or a drug or a mind altering substance since that day. And Really, thank you. Yeah, really. That was the beginning of this transformation journey. And really, I think that my, when my life actually began was that day. Yeah. What was, so what was the first like week, two weeks, months after that? Like obviously there's a massive like rebuilding process, right? It doesn't happen overnight. What, like what were the first challenges and then what were the next set and then what did you, what did you start to focus on? really funny Luke because you know, I remember sitting on the end of the bed with sitting talking to my sister-in-law as I was packing my suitcase to go to rehab. So it was the night before I was about to fly up to Sydney to check myself into this treatment center, which was actually a psychiatric hospital. And I was saying to her, this is great. You know, I'm just going to go and they're going to teach me how to drink like a lady. And then I'll be able to come back out and you know, I'll just drink on like special occasions, weddings, like I was. I had no intention of being sober for the rest of my life. I, I just had to, yeah, I just had to clean up the mess. I just wanted the chaos to stop. I just wanted to get off this hamster wheel, rebuild, and then just go back to, like I said, drinking like a lady. Now the reality is I've never drunk like a lady, but again, it's this delusion that next time will be different, you know, or, or the delusion that I could somehow control it, which Yeah. I have enough evidence to prove that that is simply not the case. If I was able to control the amount of alcohol that I consumed when I took a drink, like we wouldn't be here having this conversation. And so, you know, the three weeks that I was actually at the treatment center were, there was a lot of rewiring that happened during that time. And I did a lot of work on my childhood trauma and those negative core beliefs and the core wounding. And it was the first time that I actually acknowledged my experiences as a child because I had the perception that because I grew up, you know, we, actually, when I was really little, my dad had no money at all. Like he, built his wealth as I was growing up. And so, you know, that like the big house that we moved into, like that was when I was sort of like 12, 13. So I remember having absolutely no money. And then I remember the, the, the building of the wealth, which happened quite quickly. And then I remember it disappearing. you know, but I had this real I really found it hard to wrap my head around the fact that maybe I had a traumatic childhood because I had the house. Anything that I wanted for was provided except for emotional support and, you know, and real connection, which I didn't realize at the time, because here's the other thing is Your reality is your reality. I didn't know that there was another way to be raised. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know what it felt like to have two parents who were really present and attentive to your needs. And so I minimized a lot of the stuff that I went through. You know, there were lots of things that happened in my childhood, particularly my teenage years, you know, eating disorders and you know, I went through a phase of, of cutting and you know, some, some really horrible experiences, all of which I just thought were, you know, part of being a teenager and part of growing up to normal. You know, I didn't know any other way. And I remember being in group therapy and we had to do this thing called a timeline where we wrote from zero to 17, all of the big memories that stuck out that we, that, that impacted us in some way. And I stood up and first things first, my timeline, it was on this A3 piece of paper. And I had like, Rulered and color coded and like highlighted everything. So perfectionist, which also got addressed while I was in rehab, chronic perfectionism to the point where the therapist said, this will kill you before alcohol does. So that was a rude awakening. And then the, here's the other kicker. As I was reading this timeline back to the group, I smiled through the whole thing. That's how disassociated I was from the experiences. that occurred throughout my childhood. And it's the first thing that the therapist pointed out when I finished and she was really quite concerned. She's like, Ash, do you realize that you smiled during that whole, I mean, it was like a presentation. It was like I was doing a school, you know, like it was crazy. And that was the first time that it really sunk in that the childhood that I had maybe wasn't the childhood that I thought it was. Yeah. And that there were actually reasons as to why I felt the way I did about myself and that it wasn't my fault because I blamed myself for all of it, which is why I thought so little of myself. So that was really validating. That was really healing. And then you go through the process of learning how to, to heal from that, because like I said to you today, I'm at a point of complete gratitude. have an incredible relationship with both of my parents and it's a healthy functional relationship today. It's not codependent, it's not enmeshed. And I can stand really tall as an adult within that relationship with my parents and that's taken a lot of work as well. But I'm also really grateful because you know, like I said, my dad's in recovery as well. So we speak the same language now. And my parents have a lot more education today than they did even say, you know, gosh, what was it back in 2005, 2006 when I first, you know, had a lot of trouble with substances. So yeah, it was quite the journey. Those three weeks were really intense. And I remember right towards the end actually wanting to leave early and to go out and use because the pain of the memories and the things that were coming up was so intense. But I'm so grateful that I did stay and that they really looked after me and cared for me. And then the weirdest thing happened, Luke, my husband picked me up from rehab and it was weird because while we were in there, so I was in a rehab where we didn't have phones, there was no caffeine, no sugar. It was in terms of like the scale of strictness. I was in one of the most strict facilities in Australia. Exactly. Yeah. I love that. was literally like that. But the idea being that they, you're not, It's all about creating an environment where you can't search for things outside of yourself to make you feel better. It's like the ultimate dopamine restoration because you've got to get it from within, right? And so it's really powerful for that reason. You know, I was able to give up smoking while I was in that rehab and I'd never been able to do that before. But we started getting these whispers because you were allowed, you're gonna laugh here, this is definitely max security. We were allowed to make 10 minute phone calls on a payphone. you And on these phone calls, we started hearing these whispers from the outside world that there was toilet paper. You you couldn't get toilet paper in the supermarkets and there was, yes, there was, you everyone's talking about this like COVID-19 thing and it was a bit weird and a bit strange and it was happening on the other side of the world. So, good. Anyway, you remember how quick it was? I basically came out of rehab and it was within 10 days that we went into our first lockdown. So, Yeah. I was living in Sydney at the time and it was really weird because the way that I then reintegrated back into work and going back, because I went back to the organization that I'd been working for, you know, straight back into the role that I'd been in. And I had to learn how to do all of that on Zoom. But you know what, Luke, I was so, so grateful and hindsight, you know, solidifies this even more for me. I, know, the temptation for me to drink. was removed because what would have been my Achilles heel in those early days of my sobriety would have been birthdays, weddings, like any sort of, because I couldn't fathom, like I was like, how on earth would I ever go to a wedding and not drink? Like I just couldn't get my head around it. Now I freaking love it. Like, well, exactly right. So I really feel like I was being looked after in that sense. You know, know for a lot of people, COVID was the thing that tipped them over the edge. I think the fact that I had gotten into rehab and gotten out before that first lockdown was an absolute blessing because I definitely would have been day drinking if I hadn't have gotten sober before those lockdowns kicked in for sure. So yeah, the first year of my sobriety, I was actually really safe and protected in that sense. My husband didn't drink. He, you know, he smoked a shit ton of weed. But he didn't really drink alcohol. wasn't his thing. And I hate weed. So even though that was a big trigger for me, there was enough resilience. There was enough determination that like I was not going to pick up a drink no matter what, you know? And I was going to 12 step Zoom meetings every single day and I was doing everything that was suggested. Yeah, yeah. So what was meant to happen was I was meant to go into like a transition program for two weeks, but because we weren't allowed to go back to the hospital, They, and they, they weren't on zoom yet. I basically just wasn't able to do that program, but they had been taking us to 12 step meetings while we were in rehab. So they put you on a bus. We nicknamed it the druggy buggy and it would take you to a meeting every night. And so you start to get really familiar and comfortable with those 12 step meetings. And so I did what I was told to do. And I went to a meeting every single day. There was an 8am meeting. called Bondi C-Change and I would get on that meeting and then I would roll straight from that meeting without needing to move from my chair and I'd be, you know, at my desk 9am ready to go. Yeah, exactly right. So again, like it was all like it just worked for me. And you know, like I still attend 12 step meetings to this day, almost five years later, it's a big part of my recovery. It's where I get to be of service. It's where I get to give back and to give what was given to me so freely. And it's, you know, it's a beautiful part of my life, but it's certainly not all of my life. think one of the biggest things, you know, that's happened to me is, you know, I talk about sobriety as being the foundation to my transformation, but what it really did was it gave me the clarity to be able to start that journey back to self, which, you know, we spoke about at the very beginning of this conversation. You know, I spent so many years running away from the person that I was. And now Like everything I do is about coming home to myself and to actually really nurture and nourish the relationship with self. Because when I'm in alignment with myself and my values, I get to show up as the best person and I can be the best to everyone else in my life and to give back, which I think is really what it's all about. Yeah. When did you see that shift happen? like you mentioned, you know, the end of the three weeks, you were almost, you know, if you had had the chance, you would have left and gone and had a drink it. And then you're out and lockdowns basically sort of helped you not drink. Obviously now you're in a position where you're very much, you know, a lot more in control and you're very deliberate with what you do with yourself. When did you feel that shift away from things in the universe basically helping you on your journey through to you really seeing things clearly and knowing what you wanted to do with yourself. Hmm. You know, it's really funny because it's actually been through cultivating a faith based practice that I've gotten really clear on my path and my purpose. It actually hasn't been about getting more in control. If anything, it's been learning how to let go of control. Yeah. Because like I tried to run my life. When I controlled my life, things didn't go so well. And it's been in this constant surrender and this act of like handing it over, which I do through prayer and meditation. know, practices can look different for people. Like for some people, it'll be like getting in the surf. For some people, it might be going for a walk or just being by the ocean. But having this faith-based practice where I can actually just like hand it over to the universe and really trust, like really deeply trust that I'm going to be looked after. That's when things have just started to happen for me. You know, none of what I'm doing in my life today was planned. Like none of this was vision boarded. I'm telling you right now, it really wasn't. It all came from having good intention and coming from a place of, of passion and purpose. You know, when I started my first podcast behind the smile, it's because I so desperately wanted to remove the stigma around mental health trauma and addiction. Hmm. And I wanted to have these conversations and normalize these conversations. And it was off the back of that, that people started reaching out saying, Hey, like, can we do coaching? Can we do one-on-one work together? And I was like, right, okay. This is where the universe is guiding me. Let's start to lean into that. And from then that evolved and what I've been able to do, which, you know, has been an absolute blessing is tying in all of the holistic principles that and modalities that I have. lent into myself within my own personal transformation. you know, in sobriety, I became a yoga and a meditation teacher and more recently a breath work practitioners, because one thing that I'm really passionate about doing is anything that has changed my life. want to share it. want to give it back. And so it really has evolved from a place of like deep authenticity. rather than it being like this really structured plan of like, wanna get here. And I know that goes against like so many suggestions and like, you you should have a five year plan and this is the roadmap. And I like, I'm a big believer in setting intention and manifesting. But at the same time, when I try and overthink things, stuff starts to feel out of alignment. And when I compare it back, and go actually know what's, what's the intention here? What feels good? Because one thing I've been able to do over the last five years is really strengthen my intuition. The more I've been able to do that, the more I'm able to move into this flow state and things just happen and they, and they feel good when they do as well. Like if I'm feeling resistance, then that's a sign to me that it's not the path that I'm meant to be on. Yeah. Interesting. So I'd love to talk a little bit more about the sort of spiritual worldview that you've adopted. And I know, I actually spoke about it a bit recently with a guest of mine who came on Joel Rosenhower, who went through the 12 steps of AA as well. And we spoke on the podcast a bit about that experience and Joel, like myself, is Christian, but, sort of became Christian through that process. And we spoke about how... think the founders of AA were Christian, but they deliberately decided not to make it related to Jesus or to Yahweh. They talked about the higher power. And as Joel said, AA didn't intend to make people Christians. It intended to make people sober. And I think he's done a really good job at that. But the idea of the higher power seems to have really resonated with you. Is that your first time really starting to think about? Yeah, this is such a good topic and good conversation. So basically, like my understanding and interpretation of the 12 steps is they're really based off the tenets of the Oxford group, which was a very religious Christian group. But they changed a lot of it over time to make it a little bit more palatable. At the same time, if you read the first version of like the 12 steps, like the word God is everywhere. So it's been slightly adapted in the early days, but not too much. And for me coming into AA, I was, you know, we talk about the gift of desperation and I had that, like I was willing to do whatever it took. If you had told me that I had to put a monkey on my shoulder and rotate anti-clockwise while tapping my head, like I would have been like, yeah, whatever. You know, I was desperate. was desperate to save my life and to get well. And so Developing a concept of a higher power is something that I was really open to. I went to an all girls Anglican school and I was in a choir. So I spent a lot of time in church and singing religious hymns and I had no issue with it. I kind of rebelled against God just because I was rebellious in nature. And so I, you know, I remember like back when I was a teenager, like it was kind of cool to be an atheist. So Yeah, yeah, know what that meant, but I was just like, yeah, cool. I'll do what the cool kids are doing. You know, I really wasn't thinking for myself, but as I look back, you know, I remember a time when I was really in the depths of my addiction and I was dabbling a lot in meditation and yoga, which are both deeply spiritual practices. And I didn't realize it at the time, but I was searching for something, you know, greater than me. And so When I came into recovery and started attending 12 step meetings and it was put to me that there was a solution and it required me to develop a relationship with something greater than myself. I was really open to it. And to be honest, Luke, like in the beginning, I had no idea what I was doing. Like I was just told to get on my knees and pray and I could pray to anything. could be anything that I wanted. It just couldn't be me. in AA, is it? Yeah, right. they you know, it's part of the suggestions we call them. It's great. Someone says to me, so we have these things called alcoholics don't like to be told what to do. there's lots of suggestions, but it's kind of like the suggestion that when you jump out of a plane with a, you know, correct, we suggest you pull the cord, you know, so that's with the parachute. That's what I'm looking for with the parachute. So Yeah. And like I said, you know, I'm, really blessed that I've not, I've not questioned things. I think I see a lot of people get in a lot of pain when they come into 12 step programs and they try to intellectualize and question everything. you know, it's a simple program for complicated people we say, so, yeah, this development of a higher power and for me enhancing my spiritual life and my spiritual practices has been what has kept me sober. Hmm. like for a lot of people, fear will be the thing that gets them into the rooms. But fear will not keep you sober. Fear will lead you back to drinking eventually. You've got to replace fear. And what's the opposite of fear? It's faith. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, whether what it looks like for me today is the foundation. I'm big on morning routine is, you know, always, always meditating, even if it's just for 10 minutes, it can be silent. It can be guided. I just feel into what I need in the moment that day. And then I do, pray. And what that looks like for me is I have a couple of set prayers that I do. one of them is called the third step prayer and then the seventh step prayer, which I really love. And then I do what I call freestyle with God. And that's where I just talk. just talk. just share what's on my heart, what's on my mind. I ask for direction. I give thanks and gratitude. And then the third and final thing I do is actually write a gratitude list. And that has been part of my recovery from very early days. And it's something that I actually share with a group of sober women, which is really beautiful because I get to see what they're grateful for. It reminds me sometimes when I'm not feeling so grateful of all the things that are really amazing in my life and in the lives of others. And it really helps just to help nourish that positive mindset on a daily basis. So they're just some really simple foundational things that have made a huge impact in my life. Yeah. And so do you, you know, as you've developed this faith in a higher power that's there that you feel like you can communicate, who do you think God is? And do you think you know God or are you still learning who he is? God, I love this question. I'm just smiling. My heart just like exploded a little bit with love in that moment. For me, God is love. Like in its absolute essence, God is love. I do use the word God, like it works for me. And for some it doesn't and it's like do what works for you. But God is love. God is in everything. And for me, it's actually, it's energetic. I feel the presence of God when I'm really tapped in. and it's also within me. So, you know, I often think about when I'm praying, I'm talking to God. And when I'm meditating, I'm listening because so often, you know, an example I'll give is, know, say there's something that's happening in your life, a situation, a circumstance, and you just don't know what the right answer is and you're stuck and you're, you know, you can't figure out what to do. And then you'll have a moment of stillness and all of a sudden the answer drops in that that to me is God. Like that is, that is the universe angels, whatever you call it, communicating to you, but it will come to you in your voice. Like it will sound like you, but it's not you because if it was you, would have had the, you you would have had the answer straight away. So that's how I see it. God's in the spaces and God's. God's in the spaces between you and me. You know, I also believe God speaks through people. And so people will be brought into my life and teach me lessons that I need to learn. You know, it's everything. It's overflowing, it's abundance and it's pure. But yeah, at the core, God is love. Yeah, it's interesting. I totally agree with that last point about God speaking through people. You know, the term, the word angel, which I think comes from the Greek word angelos, which is through the Greek New Testament. The meaning, people think of angels and they think of little sort of flying beings with wings and halos. It's actually, the word just means messenger of God. Hmm. and I think there's some really clear examples in the biblical narrative where the messenger of God is just another human. So whether there are spiritual beings, I think there probably are as well, but an angel can be a human without any doubt. Without a doubt. Yeah, there are angels on earth all around us. We just got to open our eyes. Yeah, that's so beautiful. How much have you dug into the various interpretations of the character and who God is? Like have you read texts like the Bible or whether it's other, you know, I think there's other books or scriptures that claim to be revelation from God. Have you dug deep into a lot of those? So I haven't read the Bible myself. My fiance reads the Bible. He's Catholic and he's got a really strong faith-based practice as well. We often have conversations around that. What I love is that he respects that my God looks different to his. And for me, know, the Bhagavad Gita was a really powerful text. Yeah. And so I became quite familiar with that when I was doing my yoga teacher training. So I just love, I love the stories, I love the mythology. don't know that I have a specific, like God definitely doesn't have a form for me. Like I said, it's more felt, it's more energetic and it continues to evolve over time. You know, as my God consciousness grows, so does my concept of God. And so I'm open to that being something that will be forever evolving and forever changing. But I do, I really like to take little bits from, you know, all sorts of religions, know, Hinduism, Buddhism, I think there's just beautiful things that we can take many different interpretations and many concepts of both religion and spirituality. Like I'm certainly not anti-religious. think religious people have got some things incredibly right. And so yeah, I take what works for me. I'm pretty anti-religious to be honest. But that's not, and that's not anti-religious people per se. I just, I hate the religious, you know, the carrot and stick religiousness that has been attached, I think particularly to Christianity more than anything else. Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. It happens through traditions and people just following things because everyone else has followed it. But don't you think as well, like for me, it's like, it's not so much the religion, it's the people. You know, like again, when bad things happen, it's not, that's not God. Like that's a person did that. You know, you know what I mean? Like people start wars, not God. So yeah, I mean, it's God, could go, we could really go there, but I don't know. Yeah. I think for me, like something that I've been taught to do within my recovery is to stay open-minded. So. willing, honest and open-minded are the tenants and the principles that I try and live by. So yeah, there's good and bad in everything, isn't there? There is. Did your partner grow up Catholic or did he have a sort of transformative or is he a bit more straight up and down than your life? no, no, he gives me a run for my money. He, he grew up Catholic and then he left the church when he was in his teenage years and then he came back and connected with God and with religion when he got sober himself. So he's also a sober human. Yeah, he's been through a similar experience and he Yeah, he went back to the church and got baptized and confirmed and yeah, he's a member of the local church here where we live in Melbourne. And yeah, it's part of his life. it's something that, you know, like I'll go along with him like at Easter time and Christmas. And I actually really enjoy the symbolism and the community and the singing. And there's some aspects that I love about it. But like I said, yeah, I can't, I don't know, can't commit to one. I like to. I, yeah. I think, I'm really a believer that we all go on our own journeys and God sort of calls us and puts people in our paths and we either yield and we listen or we keep pushing with our own will as long as we can. particularly, yeah, I think particularly my experience, I never try to proselytize people or convince anyone because if you tried to convince me of anything five years ago, I throw a rock at you. I wasn't listening to anyone and I'm certainly not going to judge anyone else on their own journey. One thing I'd love to ask Ash about, I often think this about people that have come through programs like AA and really sort of rebuilt themselves out of it like you have. you, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the, I guess, philosophies of AA is that you, you are always an alcoholic and you always will be. So you, now that you know so much more about yourself and you have, you have a way with dealing things. Can you ever imagine a situation where you relapse in future and if, and do you ever think about that? And if you did, how would you deal with it? Hmm. Hmm. So let me answer the first part of the question. Do I ever think about relapse? The answer is no. In all honesty, if you were to offer me a drink tomorrow and you said, Ash, you can drink again and you'll have no issues. Like Luke, I wouldn't be interested because the life that I get to live in sobriety. is so much better than the life that I had when I was drinking. And it's not even about the chaos and the carnage that came along with the way that I drank alcohol. It's like alcohol is a poison. It's a depressant. It disconnects me from my essence and my true self. Like there's nothing good in my humble opinion. There's nothing that alcohol gave me that was positive. You know, even like social connection and interaction. Like it was all bullshit, really. Like the connections and the people that I have in my life today are so much more authentic and real. And the conversations that I have with people are like the conversation you and I have had today. Like we've known each other all of five minutes before we started talking. And yet we went there. I wasn't able to do that without a drink or 10. Yeah. know, five years ago, like I relied on alcohol as a social lubricant and it did, it really was this great disconnect or disconnected me from you and it disconnected me from myself. And it really put a cap on my potential. It's like anyone, I truly believe that anybody would benefit from removing alcohol from their life, whether or not they have an issue with it or not, because I just think that you become a much more productive and connected person. when you remove alcohol from your life. I've had how many? Two? I've had two, I wanted to make sure I was telling you the truth. I've had two girlfriends in the last five years in my really close friendship group, girls that I went to school with, who have given up drinking and they didn't not have a problem with it at all. You know, like they didn't mind to drink, but they witnessed my journey and the transformation and they were like, and they were listening to behind the smile and they were like, I want some of that, that sounds awesome. And now, like I love having conversations with them. They're like, I would never go back. Yeah. You know, one of them just ran a marathon. Like she only started running 12 months ago. Like it's just unbelievable the things that we do when we're not hung over on a Sunday. So I don't really think about relapsing. bringing you back to it. It was not a. Definitely not, but that's not, but I have to be really honest. recovery is a big part of my life. Like I still attend 12 step meetings. I have a partner who's sober. I am of service. I sponsor women. You know, I put myself in the middle and I stay an active participant in my recovery and in my life. What I have witnessed and observed in the short time that I've been in recovery is that if you don't continue to put it first and commit, you will fall off. And that's why I believe relapse is, you know, is so, common. And, you know, like perhaps there are a handful of people who can leave AA and drink like a regular person again. They probably weren't really alcoholic to begin with perhaps. But like, I actually haven't really seen that happen myself. Most people go out. And they may be able to manage and control it for the first couple of weeks, maybe months, and then pretty quickly they're back to where they were at the end, if not far worse. So yeah, it's just not something that, you know, like, like I, in the grand scheme of things, the, the, things that I need to do to maintain my recovery today are such a small price to pay for the life that I have on offer as a result of being clean and sober. awesome to hear. So what's next for you Ash? 2025 is going to be a big year. I'm really excited. So I'm running my transformation coaching programs, which I absolutely love. So there are six month container with incredible women helping them to experience the same life transformation that I have experienced. So that's really about helping women to reclaim their self-worth and to discover their purpose so that they can live a deeply fulfilled life. So that's really what lights me up. I'm also running three retreats next year. the retreats, when you come on retreat with me, the things that you can experience and expect are meditations, yoga practices, all levels of experience are welcome. We also do breath work and there's a lot of beautiful connection and community at those retreats. So I've got one happening in March, April, and then Bali in September. So lots of fun things happening there as well as running one-on-one breath work breakthrough sessions here in Melbourne. Yeah, lots happening in 2025 and I'm just so excited to keep it up and to keep going and to see what evolves. Like I said, I try not to plan too far ahead because I like to let the universe guide me. Yeah. Is that totally different to where you were? mean, I won't disclose, won't disclose what it was, but you were talking, at the start that you're looking at doing something that's a bit sort of sporadic and, and you, before you would always plan, would you try to always plan everything and you wouldn't let things just sort of take you where that needed to go? Yeah. Luke, I like, if you could have seen the version of me five years ago, I used to go away. My mom and I went to Hawaii one year on a mother daughter trip and I printed out a run sheet of what we would do. It would be like 6 a.m. wake up, 6.15 go down for breakfast, 6.45 walk along the beach, 7.30, like I was militant with the way that I controlled my life. Just look. see my daughter Amelia becoming like this and she's only four and a half now. I'm the opposite. I'm the opposite. Yeah, I mean, look, I've still got it in me. Don't get me wrong. Like I still love a bit of a plan, but I try to let go and surrender and hand it over as much as possible. So yeah, very different, very different attitude and outlook towards life today. That's for sure. I think that's a good thing. Maybe, maybe that's an easy compliment from me though, being some users not users not plan is an excuse to be lazy. I are you studying or reading anything interesting at the moment? Do know what I have actually, what have I just finished? my God. So I've actually just gone down a rabbit hole of fiction, which I have not read fiction for years. I've always been somebody who's like, you know, like if you look over at my bookshelf, like it's like Dr. David Hawkins, Nicole Lepera, Gabor Matei, Somawise by Dr. Luke Sinekki is a phenomenal book. If you want to read more into like somatic healing, that's been one recently that I've absolutely loved. But no, I've gone down this rabbit hole of fiction recently. And it's like, been so lovely because I've fallen in love with reading again. And it's just been like, like I'm doing, you know, my partner works nights and has crazy hours with his job. And so I'm actually just getting into bed and like falling into like fantasy novels, which is just again, so not like me, but I'm really enjoying it. So yeah, I mean from a my goodness. So, You're going to like, I forgot, can't believe I'm going to admit this publicly, but there's a series called Fourth Wing and it's like about dragons and yeah. I mean, there's, yeah, but like there's some steamy parts as well. It's just, look, it's got everything. If you're looking for something to completely distract you, but it's been great. there's, there's, I've read two in that series. The third one's coming out in January. My best friend who lives in Germany, she's all into these these books so she just keeps sending me recommendations. So apparently I've got to get into a Court of Thorn and Roses next so watch this space. Interesting. Well, Ash, much. Thanks so much for being so open and coming on to chat. And I don't think we mentioned it while we were recording, but when we're trying to work out a time, you said you were definitely a morning person and then we locked in this time. And then I listened to you go on a complete rant on another podcast, how you can't do anything after 7pm. So it's good to see. You know, I'm sure the listeners will agree you've been awesome in this hour, but I better let you get to bed now, I guess. thank you, Luke. I'm so grateful. I've absolutely loved this conversation and I can't wait to get you on my show because we're going have another epic conversation there. So thank you for your time and thank you for what you're doing. I'm absolutely so into this concept and I think you're going to do great things. So well done. Awesome. Thanks so much, Ash. We'll chat again. See you later.