What's The Point Anyway?
It seems like much of the Western world is lost. The interesting trend over the last few years is that more and more people are working that out.
More people have worked out that endless materialism and chasing things that never actually satisfy us aint it.
So what’s the point of it all, anyway?
What's The Point Anyway?
What's The Point Anyway - A Focus on Healthy Soil with Tim Martin
In this conversation, Tim Martin discusses the importance of relationships in various aspects of life, including family, business, agriculture and theology. He emphasizes that the biblical narrative centers around covenant relationships and critiques mainstream interpretations of scripture. Tim also explores the intersection of faith and agriculture, advocating for a regenerative approach that mirrors healthy relationships in society. He addresses cultural reactions to Christianity and offers a nuanced perspective on politics, suggesting that the issues faced today transcend political solutions and require a deeper understanding of the gospel. Tim and Luke explore the intersection of faith, politics, and community. They discuss the importance of local solutions over national politics, the role of the church as the bedrock of society, and the dangers of Christian nationalism. They emphasize the need for maturity in understanding the new covenant and how relationships play a crucial role in manifesting the kingdom of God. The discussion also touches on the challenges faced by American Christianity and the necessity of navigating new paradigms in a changing cultural landscape. Tim discusses the reinterpretation of biblical narratives, using the story of Noah and the implications of covenant theology to show that a material interpretation isn't necessarily the right one. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the historical context of Genesis and how it shapes our understanding of faith. Tim also shares insights into how his worldview influences his family dynamics and daily life, highlighting the role of his nine children in their family business. The discussion further explores future directions in theological engagement and the evolving perspectives on education. Finally, Tim reflects on the political landscape, expressing skepticism about the effectiveness of political solutions and advocating for a focus on community and personal relationships.
You can get a copy of Tim's book, Beyond Creation Science, at this website. And be sure to check out his library of content on his YouTube channel where he has over 300 videos looking at ideas that challenge Christian fundamentalism.
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for you, so I'll read that out. And I just thought that I just sort of put in a few of our notes from our messenger chat, talking a little bit about your background and what you do. Cause I thought, I thought it's good to give that at a high level. And then if we get into it in more depth, we can, but I'm also wary that you've got so much content out there that I'd love to push listeners to that, to get, you know, a one hour summary of what you're doing on certain things that they're interested in. So let's get going. Welcome back to What's the Point Anyway. Joining me today is Tim Martin, dialling in from the idyllic southwest Montana. Tim is a really fascinating guy and I've been looking forward to this discussion for at least a couple of months now. Tim started a window cleaning business in Denver, Colorado when he was 22, saving enough money to eventually pay cash for an old Amish farm in Montana in 2009, which with his wife Amy and their nine children has been has been transformed into a regenerative agriculture farm called Covenant Gardens. He continues to run a window cleaning business which has over 2,200 residential customers and is integrated into the farming business to support Tim's overall mission of service, work, ministry and health. He's also the author of Beyond Creation Science, a thought-provoking but controversial book which challenges many of the mainstream Christian assertions regarding the Book of Genesis in particular. though it doesn't stop there. And he runs the prolific YouTube channel Covenant Creation where he's produced over 300 detailed videos on this broad topic of biblical interpretation. He's a busy man and Tim I appreciate you taking the time to sit down and chat with me. Let's start with a big question, what's the point anyway? Hey, Luke, I appreciate your invite. love, I love your podcast. listen to your episodes and stuff. And I love how you start off that every episode with that big question, right? You know, what's the point? So, you know, I think I, yeah, I think I'd boil it down to relationship because, you know, I wear a lot of hats in the different things that I do and the different, you know, roles that I serve. And it, The older I get, the more I realize how much everything does boil down to relationship. whether it be, you know, me wearing a hat of, of father to nine children and, you know, four grandchildren, a husband, farmer, business owner, you know, all these things that we do with theology and, and author and stuff, it's all about relationship because what I've noticed is that, When you value and see the priority of relationship, you start to understand why things get done in this world, because this world runs on relationship. And we can talk about the theology behind that and the philosophy behind that. I do have background in informal training, both in theology and philosophy. So it's a fascinating, fascinating question. But to me, it's it all the point is relationship. in this life and we can talk about why that's the case and why it works that way. Awesome. I love that answer and it's, you know, I think it's different. It's similar, but different to a lot of answers that I've received. And what I do find interesting is I'll chat to Christians, I'll chat to non-Christians and not everyone has the same answer. And it's the first time I've heard relationship though, a lot of people do talk about love. You've, you know, you've got the experience of nine kids and four grandchildren. How long has it taken you to realize that the point is really relationships? You know, think growing up in a Christian home, from my earliest memory, it was always there because of course, with Christianity, the idea is, know, God is the center of everything and our worship of God is flowing out of our faith. And so obviously it starts with relationship and that concept too. I mean, you mentioned love, love, you know, assumes more than one individual in some kind of relationship. So... Mm. Yeah, we're not talking different answers here, just different angles on the same, same basic conclusion. But as, as I grow older and learn more, and we can go lot of different ways with this, but with our children, my children and my wife, Amy's support, you you see how important it is for them in a healthy environment to have that relationship. And of course the siblings have their own relationships to each other. And, You know, they grow up and they learn different things. So it's, almost like a maturing process of seeing how profound the idea of relationship and experience. I think I want to emphasize the experience of relationship too, because sometimes people just have this idea over here. That's, you know, this concept, but it's actually reality. It is, it is so, so real in our experiential life that, it can be sometimes, you know, missed, you know, and we talk about farming, we're talking about relationship again, we're talking about plants and animals in relationship, we're talking about life, this web of life that works together in certain ways and, you know, regenerative agriculture is a little bit different because we highlight that relationship side of growing things in a new way from you know, the modern conventional agriculture, is kind of focused on profit production output without, you know, kind of seeing the big picture of a relationship. Right. Exactly. So we could talk, we could take this a bunch of different ways. Theology is, you know, when I do work with theology, I'm working with a whole bunch of friends that have like-minded ideas. over the years since, you know, we published Beyond Creation Science, 2007, it's been a wrong project and it's been a lot of relationships involved in that. So it's not something that's individual thing. I think we even go into politics with American politics now too, because you have different factions that want what they want and they're willing to sacrifice. what they need to to get what those political conclusions or political action accomplished, sometimes by ignoring relationship. That's the American scene right now. And I see that it's sort of all interrelated in this web of the world that we live in, God's world, who is one and many. That explains everything. From my perspective, you know, my training, my contemplative thought about the different activities that I'm involved in, details that I work with, that explains everything. Something that, you know, in an atheist worldview or a naturalistic or materialistic worldview doesn't really explain why is relationship so central to life? Because all that is, you know, all you have there is matter. You have stuff. I was actually, I'm glad you mentioned that because that was, as you were talking through this answer, there's so many different ways we can go on topics we can poke at. I'd love to now poke at the theological, you know, the theological back, I guess, background of this, because the last point is a really good point. I think a lot of people will say, yeah, the point of life is to love. It's relationships, it's some form of that. And you'll, you'll read a whole bunch of philosophies and worldviews, but most can't really answer why relationships are important. As you say, if it's a atheist or naturalistic worldview, then what then actually there's no point of relationships. It should be all about me, me, me. So how does your theology and beliefs and faiths tie into the importance of relationships? Yeah. So, so I think, I think my experience in working with, the agriculture, you know, brings me kind of into a scientific field as well. And, I've always, I've always had a really, you know, kind of intriguing relationship with technology and science. I, and, and even with a large family, you know, we have sort of old ideas of priorities of large family and and the value of children and stuff, which many people consider very, very conservative. But at the same time, we value the technology and progress as far as a great tool in God's kingdom at the same time. So in some respects, we're very liberal in that respect because I have certain views of creation and certain views of Genesis in the Bible that plays a background to the work that we do. yes. Right. So I think the theology is one of those things where, you know, when my friends talk to me, my liberal friends consider me like some conservative whack-nut, right? But But when I go and talk to my conservative friends, because of my theological views and conclusions and the scientific applications of those things, they think of me as a raving liberal. Yeah, so you're an outcast everywhere. Right. I have, because of these different roles, I have a lot of interaction with a lot of different communities. So there's a lot of experience where I'm in a community where most of the time you won't see a lot of Christians involved in. Like even like ecology in the United States, like environmentalism type stuff like that. That's generally considered a liberal, like sort of atheist or, you know, kind of progressive view. And I don't take that view at all. You know, from a Christian point of view, I believe ecology is extraordinarily important from the value that God has made all things and, you know, starting with human life on down to the ecology that we're working with in the farm scene. So that puts me in a really weird situation because we're kind of polarized here. So I try to work with different groups in different ways that I see productive for the kingdom of God, because that's my center, following the teachings of Jesus Christ and loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself. Mm. which to me includes people you don't agree with, you know, and service. I don't know if that answers your question, but it sort of meanders there. Yeah, definitely does. think, you've touched on it and maybe let's get into this in a bit more detail. And we've obviously had these discussions that how one interprets the Bible and how one builds their worldview based on this set of scriptures that we have has profound implications for how we live. I think your view is similar to mine that a lot of people which I would say Christians and also non-Christians have interpreted the Bible in completely the wrong way. Do you want to maybe, and I'm going to point people to all of your links in the show notes because you've done a mountain of work and I'm going to ask you a five minute question that you've written or spoken tens of hours or hundreds of hours on. Do you want to give us a bit of an overview of what you think? the biblical narrative actually is and perhaps counter that to what you think the mainstream idea of what the narrative is. Sure, you know, it's kind of related to my one word answer of relationship, right? Because I really believe that the Bible opens with the creation narrative in terms of covenant relationship. That's what's being communicated there. And I think you can go back to the ancient Near East context of Genesis and see how, you know, the idea of temple and priesthood and the relationship between God and his people is sort of the world for that ancient Near East mindset. And I think that's where the Bible comes from. And so for me, the eschatology, of course in Genesis 1, 1, in the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. that's the beginning of the old covenant creation, right? Which plays into the eschatology of the passing away of the old covenant creation in the first century with the completion of the work of Christ. So it's relationship from beginning to end when you get into the story of the Bible. And I think Christians have missed that because we have made it about material things with our traditional, quote unquote, traditional doctrines of creation and the doctrines of eschatology, where you have a new physical creation coming. So all of this stuff is going to be burned up. If you read 2 Peter 3, they interpret the elements there as like a Greek concept of physical matter being burned up and we're going to go to heaven, which is a new creation in the future. So to contrast that, You know, if you start the Bible off about a story about how God made the physical universe and some kind of a literal description, scientific for our minds. Now you're going to start down the road of a physical priority for scripture. And that's going to lead you to your physical priority to eschatology and expectations of things like resurrection. and other Christian doctrines. And I think that even though that has a long history in American and church history, I think that's suspect. I think that can be demonstrated that's really an abuse or a mistake in understanding of scripture. It's really Greek. The Greek idea was. matter and spirit in this dichotomy. And then that has played a large role in the formulation of Christian theology and biblical reading. Yeah, and matter is all evil and wicked and spirit is the only good. And escape is ultimately leaving this creation to the new creation, eschatology. So yes, it plays into that whole ideal. so how would you articulate your views on what it is as a contrast to that? So, yeah, that's where you have this idea of fulfillment in our eschatology of Christ came to bring that new relationship into being and has completed that task. So we live in the fulfillment of that new covenant order, that new relationship that opens the way into the presence of God himself. And again, we're back to relationship. Yeah. with eschatology. you know, those details could be fleshed out quite a bit. But I'm convinced they have tremendous implications for worldview, like what you said. Because I see it living and doing the things that I do, whether I'm relating to my customers in my work, or I'm relating to the farm stuff, or family stuff, or ministry stuff in a congregational setting. You know, it's It really is the big deal. Yeah, I saw I was listening to one of your videos and there was a quote from you on that where, what'd you say? said, churches today, what are they there for? They present themselves to stop Satan and the devil and help people get from this life to the next because that's the way they present the gospel. That I think explains most of world geopolitics, doesn't it? Yeah, it's that escapism. It's that, that, that the idea of going from where we live now to some like purified form in the future that, you know, it just, it's, it's not, it's not even a real spirituality either, because it's always, it's always, you know, left off for the future, whether it's after you die. or after genius comes back, right? It's not real here. See, to me, spirituality is in the material existence that we have. And you can see, you can see so many lessons and the spiritual outworking of the meaning of real life in the natural world around us, the human culture that we are involved in, the scientific understandings that we come to bring. like a spirituality to our existence. So that's how I see it. It's an imminent idea of spirituality. It's an earthy idea of spirituality, whether I'm getting up and going and pushing a squeegee across the glass to clean somebody's windows, or just the physical act of watching plants grow. Those are... spiritual lessons and it's a spiritual experience whether I fully understand that or not. Yeah. I am. mean, on this show, I, I have spoken to an endeavor to speak to a whole lot more people that, you know, as sort of maybe new age or a little bit sort of Buddhist or esoteric in their worldview. And a lot of Christians will hate me saying this, but, I think a lot of them understand that the nature of spirituality and the nature of God better than many Christians, which is. an indictment and that's not saying that that's not ignoring the key point that they're missing Jesus Christ. But, but I think, I think sadly what is happening in modern society is people look at the Bible, look at the Bible and they'll read it and they'll read about women being created from man's ribs, animals going onto an ark, surviving a major global flood. bushes being on fire and talking to humans. And then they look around the world around them that they see with their eyes and they're like, well, none of this happens. So this is just some mythological story and I'm not going to invest my life in that. But by, and I think they're almost, and sadly Christians are saying, no, hey, you don't believe in the earth literally being created in six days. And all these things did happen because the because the Bible says they happen is one of the best retorts they use and people dismiss it and miss the real meaning in that. And I think there's a whole bunch of people that have dismissed the gospel of Jesus Christ because of really bad testimony of what they should be looking for. Yeah, I think from my understanding, you know, I agree with you totally that, you know, this push to New Age thinking and the Buddhist resurgence in Western culture, American, European context is kind of a reaction. It's a reaction to Christian sort of mixing materialism and enlightenment thinking and presenting that as Christianity. Mmm. And so you have this idea that, that, that man is the center of everything, that material prosperity is the gospel itself, right? I mean, that's, that's the materialistic modern age that we have. And so you kind of reach a dead end with that because it doesn't give meaning. It doesn't really answer the needs of people long-term. And so you have this reaction in the other extreme toward, you know, new age thought, Buddhist priorities, all kinds of Eastern mysticism. so that has not always been the case though, because Christians have been very, you know, if you go back to medieval times and the early, you know, the desert fathers, for example, in Christian church history, they were very mystical about the meaning of their faith. And they were very down to earth in the sense that they also appreciated the meaning of the physical world that they live in. So there has been this ebb and flow, I think, if you look at history, church history, particularly as it unfolded and where we are now. So. Yeah, I have friends that are very, very new age and we get along great because, you know, they reinterpret a lot of things that I say, you know, to them, Christ is like an idea or whatever. That's just how they do that. So there's always that need to sort of, you know, bring a conversation around to define things in a biblical sense in the appropriate ways. and keep those relationships working and strong because that's how ministry does. That's how we outreach to other people is through relationship again and keeping those friendships healthy and mutually beneficial. But that's the way agriculture works too though, because if you look at the way things grow, sometimes you need different plants growing together to bring that health, the mutual interesting. symbiotic relationship. You need plants and animals working together also, by the way. So that relationship thing is an intriguing perspective to look at at different philosophies, even what we call unbelieving philosophies. From my perspective and my experience in the agriculture side, I can understand why diversity is health on an agricultural plane. But to me, the same lesson applies in human society, right? Because we need the diversity, and I think God sees that as healthy, as kind of a master farmer. That's the image that the Bible gives of God. God's the master farmer. He's the landowner. He's the one planting the seeds. He's planting the field, right? I mean, all of these... agricultural images are more profound than we realize. And, you know, I can see unbelievers in the world as a necessary element of God's healthy creation. Hmm. I've never thought about in terms of agriculture, but that that creates a whole bunch of really interesting images. Now, what you want to be careful with in agriculture, you don't want things to get out of balance, right? So it's always about, if you're in regenerative agriculture, you're kind of stewarding the processes that are going on. You're trying to bring those processes to be healthy, balanced, and sort of sustainable for the longterm. So you don't want things to take over and run everything else out. So you have to be careful not to let certain imbalances play out in a way that's destructive. And a lot of times that has to do with soil health, Regenerative agriculture places a super high emphasis on soil health because all life, all healthy life is coming from the health of the soil, from the ground up. That's the way regenerative agriculture works. And it's very different than conventional agriculture, which enforces, you know, nutrition and health from the outside in, right? Through application of chemicals, through techniques, through poisons, through sprays and things like that. it's a ground up approach to health. And so there is that idea of balance out there and you want to keep a coherent system that's working together. And that's difficult in human society too, because you have that will to dominate. It comes out in politics, comes out in religious instruction and culture in various ways. So that's a different perspective than I grew up with because the idea was, if you have other people that are not in charge, then Christians, then everything's terrible and everything's... going to go to hell in a handbasket, right? And you're going to have all kinds of problems, which is true to a certain degree, but it's a balance issue. And that's a different way of looking at human society and culture. Yeah. So what you've just said there, I think this could be an example of where you'd find agreement and disagreement with the far right and the far left, right? So you talk about the world being an example of sort of this regenerative agriculture with everything sort of growing together. A new age person might look at that and say, see what he's saying is God is leading everyone to the same place and they'll get there and they'll say that, Jesus was the way and Buddha was the way and Muhammad was the way. And so I agree with him. And then a Christian will look at you and say, this guy's a universalist. He's a heretic. He's teaching that, you know, that, that, that everyone is getting to God and it's not only about, about Jesus. So how would you, how would you answer that? Cause I'm guessing your answer is in the middle. Well, my answer probably is a little bit different in sense that I view the different existence as sort of God's So I'm not saying in terms of like a religious like goals for them. I think they're productive in God's kingdom and he uses the differences for his purposes. And ultimately at the center of those purposes is God's people, right? That's my perspective. It's not a universalism in the sense that all different perspectives are equally true. It's that they're, it's that they're helpful and, and they are useful in God's reign, God's Basil, Basilion, God's reign of, and kingdom. So that's kind of how I would look at it. As far as the politics thing, you know, I don't really, I'm probably a little different than lot of Americans. I didn't, I didn't vote for. for Donald Trump or for the Democrat candidate Harris on the last election, because my views transcend politics. I can see certain benefits from Trump getting elected in certain details and some distractions and some deleterious effects. And I look at Harris and the Democrats and understanding the political scene in United States, I could see certain benefits that would be good for that and certain deleterious effects. The trade-off is not 100 % either way. That sounds far too, that sounds like far too nuanced and balanced of you Tim. What's wrong with you? I have friends on both sides. you know, and I understand there, I understand what they're trying to do. It's just that, you know, when it comes down to my worldview, I don't believe that the issues that we're dealing with in American society were caused by politics and they can't be solved by politics. Right. So I'm transcending politics because those issues, they're not political. You know, they have to do with They have to do with greed and they have to do with idolatries of various things that people engage in. And the only way you can approach those things is through the gospel that offers the solution to things like drug abuse. And just to give examples, greed, corporate abuse of environment issues. You could have like, tyrannical type ideas that the government has to give you every detailed solution. So I don't fit in. I don't fit on the political spectrum because I really think I gave up. I was very involved in politics when I was younger, but you just see the futility of it from a a from a contemplative Christian worldview. And I'd rather spend my time in other things that I do see in my own local community is very, very health. and service oriented that brings that kind of gospel light into my community. So I'm very localist in that sense. The national political scene in the United States is too far gone to really, that's the thing is people think that if they vote and elect somebody, then that's the solution. And what happens every time, and if you get older, you see this. you know, years go by and then there's this great disappointment that, it didn't work. And it's like, well, that's because it's not the solution. There's only one solution. You know, that's, that's, that's health coming from the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, so how are we going to interact and manifest that in our lives? You know, that's, that's really where the solutions lie. And it's individual, it's local. It sort of percolates into the national scene, I think, down the road, but that's not where it begins and that's not where it's sourced. So that's my take on the current political scene in the United States. And it is different. yeah. so I spoke, I spoke about this topic with Zach Davis on the show and I know you listened to that. And I mean, Zach sort of answered it in a, in a similar vein, but then we didn't dig into it. And maybe, maybe we can dig into it a bit more now. So Zach, Zach said a line that was sort of along the lines of what you said that the church is the bedrock of a society. I think a. Christian can listen to that and can take completely different interpretations of what that means. And we know at the moment there's a massive move towards this sort of Christian nationalism and almost the theocracy, which ignores the fact that the whole Old Testament deals with a theocracy that didn't work. And then a non-Christian hears it and is like, what are you on about? The church being the bedrock of society, I don't even believe anything you guys do. I don't want to be subject to your dominion. I agree with you. think the church is the bedrock of society and the culture is our report card on how well we're doing. So how does that look practically? You know, so there's a lot of theology involved in that as far as defining what the kingdom of God looks like, first of all. Let's start there with the New Testament because the people of Jesus's day wanted to make Jesus king, right? And then overthrow the Romans, reestablish the Israelite monarchy and, you know, rule like the Romans. They were looking for a kingdom just like everybody else. Mm. And if you look at who Jesus dealt with, the Pharisees, the Judaizers, the Sadducees, you know, he rejected that outright. And I see Christian nationalism as repeating that error of defining the kingdom of God as political authority to sort of rule over other people. And in that sense, it's a lot like all the other kingdoms of the world, because everybody's, you know, you have a history of worlds, one kingdom taking over another kingdom. This army defeats that army, right? Right. So Christian nationalism is a theological error at that very base level. But I think the right wing in the United States has the problem of defining dominion in terms of freedom. and sort of hybridizing freedom as Christianity. And I live in Montana, so I live in a very libertarian state, but probably the most libertarian, don't tell me what to do state. And I think it's crazy. We love our guns, we love our freedom, we love our... low tax scene. love, you know, just lack of regulation. And that's fine. I can work with that. Christian gospel can work with that because again, it transcends all those things. But here in Montana, with the most, probably the most libertarian state, we went for Trump, I think 60, 40%. So it's a red stays Trump country. But in the very same election, A lot of people don't realize this from the right-wing Christian, sort of Christian nationalist group. Montana went, voted to establish abortion rights in the constitution of Montana, almost two to one. Yeah. Because why? It's a libertarian state. I do what I want. So the idea that just being free gets you closer to Christianity or values from a right-wing Christian perspective, they don't work out because being free by itself isn't Christian. Yeah. mean, that's the goal of a lot of this Christian nationalism stuff. And I'm living in a libertarian state and you want to talk about a place that is relationship starved. Montana is the place to go because everybody comes here to be left alone. You we have the highest drunk driver fatality rate in the United States. Right. And there's a lot of reasons. There's a lot of reasons for that beyond these particular discussions, but we have a huge problem with suicide and drug abuse. And that is the symptom of lack of relationship. So being libertarian, sort of like the idea of Christian nationalist idea that we just need to be anti-government, remove all of government, and we have a Christian nation. Mm. It's a shortcut because it's a goal that isn't Christian, right, first of all. But second of all, it doesn't really manifest the gospel of Jesus Christ. It really is manifesting the idea of power politics, which Jesus rejected. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's incredibly, hypocritical in its approach. It's we're sick of sick of the left wing telling us what to do. So we want to come in so we can tell them what to do. It and it's power politics in American in the American scene is power politics. So it it's hard to deal with because you're always bumping into it, Luke, no matter what you're doing. You know, different people have different ideas of what the rules should be. Right. So the question really isn't isn't really about rules or no rules. The question is, are you going to have good rules or bad rules? Hmm. what are there going to be the standards that flow into those guidelines and how we order ourselves as a community? Because nobody can live by themselves, right? That's the fundamental reality. Government isn't going away, no matter what. Some people would like to see. You know, the anarchists are very, very prevalent here in Montana. There are stories about it, I'm sure, that you probably hear about. And I'm saying that living in a cabin, you know, with a cabin in Montana. a beautiful log cabin too I can see in your background. Yeah. so, so to follow up with your conversation with Zach, you know, the idea that's very prevalent in right wing Christian circles is that if we just remove government or limit government, then we will have a Christian effect is to me, it's, it's a bit naive. and I, and I used to hold that by the way, I was big on you know, that political side of things. But I just see, I just see, you know, the gospel in such a different three-dimensional way now that, that you're not going to get structural change that affects gospel living. It takes more than that. And that's what we should be focused on. So what then is that, Tim, so like what is, you spoke about what Jesus said the kingdom of God isn't. What is it? And then how should a co-ruler in that kingdom be ruling the earth and what does that look like for them and what does it look like for everyone around them, including the non-believer? Yeah, that's a hard question because I don't think there's a one single answer for that question. It really depends on where you're located, right? And what kind of community you live in, what kind of country you live in, the needs of the people around you. One of my thoughts on the glory of the new covenant, if you sort of think through the application of the theology, is that the new covenant in Christ is free for maturity to take over. You know, what we really need is for Christians to mature in their faith and learn different ways to, to, to relate to the world in a mature and godly fashion, wherever they are and whatever the details. And at that level, when you, when you can emphasize maturity, you can learn about your own situation and understand, you know, where is the most effective way. or goal in my context to make a difference for the kingdom of God. Because I really, I really believe that we have not really thought much about the glory of the new covenant in terms of freedom, because the old covenant is very, very rigid, right? You look at, you look at Israel and all the laws that they had to follow, et cetera, which magnify God's holiness. So they were good in that context, you know, for sort of for Israel underage, you know, the law is a tutor for school children, right? That's the way Paul presents it. So when Jesus comes and accomplishes his work, he is the new man. He is the mature man. And we as followers of Jesus Christ become of age. Well, when you grow up and you move out of your house as an adult, right? You don't walk around asking, this continual question, what am I supposed to do now? What's my rules for today? No, no, no. You think about your future and your goals and priorities, and you have freedom to sort of develop a plan and an attack to make those things happen. And I think that's where we are with the new covenant and the church is in the new covenant. The church hasn't fully understood that. But I think believers are in a position to where we can think through what are the wise ways of interacting with our culture, of forming our churches, our congregational settings, our family settings, husband-wife relationships. I think we're in a mature situation where we can actually say, given my wife's benefits and her skills and her talents, and my personality and my skills and my time, how do we best work together? That's a position of freedom. That's very different, very different than the ancient Greco-Roman patriarchal view, which, you know, a lot of Christians still want to perpetuate. So I think the freedom of the new covenant is bigger than we have really comprehended. And with the freedom comes in the new covenant, to sort of interact with culture, it puts the onus on us to value maturity, you know, to figure out and learn the best way in that context, to do ministry, to do kingdom work. So in that sense, you know, I'm probably pretty progressive in my views. But, you know, I believe it flows directly from the biblical theology. Yeah. very, very, almost fundamentalist on that side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it, it ties in so perfectly with your opening statement about relationships. So it's freedom, not in the Christian nationalist libertarian sense of freedom so that I can do this. It's freedom that I can live in accordance with a way that loves my neighbor as myself. And I think that it would I be correct in saying that that is how this impacts the world around us in a way that's revolutionary, whether they are a believer or not. I think that's the example that we have with Jesus. I mean, how did Jesus change the world? He came in and lived here and he gathered his disciples and he interacted, he ministered in a real place at a real time through relationship. And that was the power. He did it without taking political authority, whether it be in Judea or in Rome. That's the paradigm. to me, that's the paradigm. How did Jesus change the world? Because I don't think Christians really have thought through what that means in a full and complete worldview sense. I sense that Christians are struggling to basically have a football game in American culture, right? It's like, our team is over here, we just gotta push you guys off. And of course, as soon as you approach culture as a football game, Whoever is going to be strongest, most powerful, whatever. You're going to get that feedback and they're going to have the same idea and you ended up in a... in a loggerhead, right? It doesn't work. Well, that's, I had, I don't know if you've listened to the episode, it was a fascinating discussion, with Stephen Long. So Stephen was grew up Christian, was homosexual, left the church. His dad was sort of a Protestant exorcist. and so he, you know, he went through gay conversion therapy as a teenager and then left the church and he ended up going to the, satanic temple and worked as a minister at the satanic temple. Now he's actually, he's, he's an awesome guy to chat to and he's got, I mean, I agree with him more than on most things than I agree with most Christians, right? But he, he has gone about his life post the church in a way that in many ways is like the antithesis of the church because it's It's outed him. It's, you know, it's cast him out. It's treated him as a treated him as an outsider and someone that's the enemy. So then when you create a whole bunch of enemies, then those people he spoke about when he went into the satanic temple, he's like, we were just a bunch of outsiders that finally found a place where we were loved by each other, you know? So when we, when we manifest this kingdom in the wrong way, it has really bad implications in the world. You know, that's another example of sort of how American Christians on the far right tend to have problems keeping their children. Right. And they talk about this all the time. If you go to Answers in Genesis, they're doing seminars on how to keep your children believers and how to make sure they start with Genesis and the literary Genesis to be, you know, but it doesn't work. Right. And they've been trying to do this for generations. But But here's where my experience with agriculture and regenerative agriculture comes back into play. Because when you have problems of succession, you're really dealing with problems of soil. It's the soil context and the unhealthiness in the soil itself from which that life is springing that is the root of the problem. And I believe the American right-wing theology is bad soil, leading naturally to the problem of how do you keep your children? How do you grow as far as a community? mean, a lot of these churches here in the United States right now are, and this is true of both left wing and right wing, but they're just basically disappearing. You've got, you've got a generation that's dying off. You've got a new generation that they don't want to have anything to do with it because what they've been presented from the churches from the Christian ministries is not really what I would consider and probably not what you would consider biblical Christianity. It's historic Christian doctrine that has got so many problems and so many applications in a materialistic sense that is, it is problematic to say the least. So the soil itself is bad. And then you have the problem of not keeping the the children in the church. So a big aspect of my priority with my writing and my theology stuff is to re-examine scripture in light of itself, whether it be the eschatology side of the prophecy stuff or whether it be the Genesis creation side, because those two things are very much related to each other and have been understood to be related to each other for 2,000 years. And sort of like Let's bring health to people from the ground up. And to me, the theology is soil that a lot of this stuff springs from. so the theology that I'm doing is a lot like in a parallel universe, what the agriculture is doing. So I hope that I hope that kind of gets the direction. But I think our fundamental manifestation of American Christianity is very toxic. right now. I agree. So I mean, it's interesting. Jesus spoke about, you'll know them by their fruits again. I mean, agriculture is rife throughout the biblical narrative. And then Paul, Paul described the kingdom of God as peace, joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. So if you think of those together, a representative of the kingdom should be so full of peace, joy and righteousness. that those around them look at them and say, I want what they've got. But what we've got instead is the opposite. We've got so many people looking, saying, I don't want anything like what they've got. So I'm going to go and seek the opposite. Fruit of the Spirit is an agricultural image. The idea of the tree of life and the leaves of the tree being for the healing of the nations, right? In the Book of Revelation 21 and 22. Those are agriculture imagery. So yeah, I think that's key to re-examining. And we're kind of at a weird point in Western culture right now. We're kind of like the... the 20th century consensus is breaking down. And so there's like all these different competing alternatives, new paradigms, new ways of thinking, new politics, things that are competing against one another to take the place of, you know, like 20th century paradigm thinking. yeah, and we're kind of at the point where you can see that the old paradigm is not working. Yeah. whatever subject you're talking about. But the new paradigm that will probably manifest itself isn't there yet. And so a lot of people feel very insecure. They feel like the world is ending. That's common zeitgeist, right? The world is ending, which is probably true to a certain degree when you talk about like, if you understand worlds as ways of thinking, ways of organization, yeah, that's true. But that doesn't mean there's not gonna be something else that's gonna come along as well. yeah, I think we're in the end times. think the world is coming to an end and yet I don't think scripture speaks about what we're living in today at all. It's not concerned with that. This is the progression of the way life works. We can see it with our individual experiences too, right? I mean, you go through different phases of life and they come to an end and then you get to a new phase of your own personal existence, right? Getting married, having children, retirement, right? This is the way of everything. This is not sort of apocalyptic as modern American Christians think of as apocalyptic. So yeah, and it's the maturity to understand that, right? And then not be distracted by all the, you know, the world is ending. my gosh, I can't believe, you know, not getting distracted by that, just to understand that's the context. That's where you live providentially. Now find a place to get busy, you know, and bring health to the different, you know, contexts and relationships that you have. Yeah. Tim, I'd love to, maybe just in this last little section here, lot of my guests, we've spoken a lot about the end and misconceptions around the end. You've obviously done so much work on the beginning. you know, which starts in the book of Genesis. What's a little, give us your favorite, little store biblical story that everyone thinks means one thing, but that you think clearly we can say means something else. I know whether that's maybe Noah's Ark or, yeah. was the direction I was going. know, the idea behind Genesis six through nine, of course, modern Christians make Genesis six through nine to be about geology. The great global flood of Noah created the entire geological record, right? All the dead things buried them all. That's what Noah's floods about. But man, when you read the story of Noah in the context of Genesis creation, you see, hey, here is God's man who lives by faith. And he brings about the salvation, not just of himself and his own family, but he brings all the animals together into this arc of salvation. And they go through the destruction and come out on a new world. You know, that's the story of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, is the man, he is the Israelite, he is the man of faith, right? The ultimate example that we have. And through his work and his disciples' work of going out to the nations, to the animals, they bring all of the nations into this gospel of the kingdom. And they last through that time of great tribulation. the consummation of the ages, the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem, and even the difficulties that Rome had at the time with the end of Nero Caesar. It was a very tumultuous time within the Roman Empire with earthquakes and famines and all. Through the gospel and through Jesus Christ, all these animals are brought together and they're taken through that to a new world. And we would call that the Christian age, the new heavens, the new earth. Yeah. I read Noah's story of the flood in that covenant context as opposed to geology. That's like a very modernistic idea. Nobody understood that the flood was about geology until 20th century when they wrote this all up. It's so non-contextual and modern. Do you think there was an actual boat and actual flood at all or is it purely a parable? No, I think that there's, I believe that in all of these Genesis stories, you're talking about real people that have this relationship. Again, that's the priority. It's a covenant relationship and they're going through their experience and they're relating things in symbolic ways sometimes. But if you look at the details in the early Genesis, it actually matches up very well with the ancient Near East in Mesopotamia of pre Abraham. time period. had gardens, they had walled gardens, they irrigated the land through rivers, right, controlled where the water went to produce the fruit. We see that they had, in Mesopotamia there are a number of documented floods, sometimes leaving, you know, layers of silt that archaeologists can dig through and find cities underneath that were wiped out. So I do believe there is historical sort of dimension to the stories of Genesis. But at the same time, they were not like in the ancient Near East. They didn't think in terms of like modern scientific perspectives of and didn't ask the questions that we ask. So they were very, very different in that way. So the challenge to understand those stories and sort of like, you know, interpret them is to get closer to their their worldview, their ancient Near East context and reconstruct that. with that sort of humble approach as opposed to, you know, imperially projecting modern geology as in Genesis 6 through 9. It's very, very imperialistic, modernistic in that sense. Definitely. So does that mean that you believe... Like where do think the first man came from? Do you believe in ideas like evolution or... Well, the idea of evolution really depends on everybody's interpretation and definition of it, because everybody has a different definition of evolution. You know, these young earth creationist organizations talk about macroevolution and microevolution, you know, these kinds of separations and stuff. I don't believe that the Bible was given to answer that question, because it's again in that relationship context of God's covenant people. I believe the covenant begins with Adam. Yeah. don't believe that speaks to anything about, you know, who exists before that or what exists before that. think those are scientific concerns. Just like when you see the end of the world in New Testament prophecy, it's not talking about, you know, the end of all human civilization. It's talking about a covenant end. And we can see life goes on beyond that and people continue to exist. So I see them very parallel. beginning and the end in terms of covenant context. And you know, that that's just a consistent outworking of my theology that that brings me to those conclusions. Yeah, yeah, I think the great mistake so many people make is they think that the Bible is a book about all things. Every single thing that is in the world is covered in the Bible and it's not. I think it's a story about God's relationship with people via covenants. Yeah. It's a transformation. It's a paradigm shift. You I grew up very much into that, into that, you know, sort of common fundamentalist perspective. And it is a real paradigm shift. And it's controversial to this day. But that's, that's the way things go. How are you going for time Tim? You got a hard stop? You're okay? Yeah, perfect. I won't keep you too long because I know we've just ticked over an hour, but I'd love to talk a little bit about the manifestation of your worldview into your day-to-day life. What does that mean for your living? And you know, I mentioned at the start, you've got nine kids and four grandkids. I'm sure, I mean, I've got... three kids under four and that seems crazy to me. And I'm sure people listening to this are thinking how on earth is this guy running a farm, running a window cleaning business with nine kids running around. What's life like for you? What is, how does your worldview impact the way you are living? The crazy thing about it, Luke, is I don't think I could do what I do without my family, right? Because they're all interactive. One of my sons is a full partner in the business. As you say that, my little two year old's just running the room. you want to come say hi, Thomas? No, he doesn't want to say hi. Sorry, dude. children have been key in growing the business that we have and in running the farm. They go to farmer's markets, they sell our plants, they make deliveries that sort of make the business work. So the idea there again is we're all working together as a family to accomplish goals. You we wake up and we offer a service to customers. A lot of these customers that I work for can't physically do the work that we do. They're retirees or whatever. And it takes ladders. takes very manual sort of effort-based kind of work to do this service. So my worldview plays into that because I'm always thinking about how to serve these customers in the best possible way. And they reward us through pay. and they pay us very well for what we do. And we've been doing it for coming up on 30 years now. So we're pretty good at taking care of our clients. But in this world that we live in, that's not something that's very common. People love our work and they love having that relationship with us. They watch our kids grow up by the way, and it's like, well, who's the next child that's gonna show up and run the crew on the window clean? you crew or you know, a farmer's market is when are you going to be, you know, they're talking to the little toddler, right? When are you going to be running this market? So, so that that's really a manifestation of my long term view of, of, of the value of children. And, I think that they benefit from that too, because they learn skills in life. older children are already grown up and moved out. We only have, you know, five and a half left. Yeah. Because, you know, I've got a 19 year old at home who's not at home a lot, right? So it's, that's only half. So, so we can see the benefits of that for their life, their life's work too. They're responsible, they're disciplined and, and they, you know, when they, when they fly the nest, they do well. And with challenges that come along the way too, as well. But so, so that's kind of how I see. spirituality working its way out in the daily life, right? Because every bit of that is gospel application. You how we relate to our customers, how we work on our farm, you know, how we run as a family and the blessings that we try to bring to our neighbors, because our customers are our neighbors. We're working for our friends. And some of these customers we've known for 20 years or more. It's fascinating. and so your focus is on the soil is on the environment around you and keeping that healthy. Yeah. What's, what's next on the horizon, Tim? Like, I think the last, by the sounds of it, last 20, 30 years of your life has been very busy and, and insane. What do you think your shift towards doing more now that you know more fly that more more of the kids fly the coop and You've got a bit more time for different things I've always been involved in theology conferences and get togethers. so I'm going to keep doing that and probably focus more on that. We have a big conference coming up here in Montana next year in July. The Montana conference, it's called the Eschatology of Genesis. You can read about that on the website beyondcreationscience.com. So obviously, Conferences, think that theology work is the most important, like long-term contribution that I can give. so YouTube content creation is going to be big, video production, just media in general. And then of course, through that, there's a lot of relationships involved with people that are like-minded, that are doing similar work that I consider to be very valuable. So that's kind of where I see it. You making money is... has been sort of a priority for a long time. And we've been blessed to be productive with these businesses. The farm is very productive as well. It contributes to the family income and stuff. So now we're in a position of freedom that is going to allow us to do a lot of things in the future. And you not have to focus on day-to-day budget. My son is planning on taking over the business. So that will continue to be productive in that. context with any of the other children that decide to join us full time as well. They work usually four or five years and then they try something on their own. And, you know, that's what we've seen. And some of them are doing very well, very, very happy with what God has benefited and blessed us with, with the family, with the family life. So don't get discouraged. They grow up and they will surprise you, man. They will surprise you. the ways you just can never conceive. What have your oldest kids gone off to do? So my oldest son is in computer programming and web type creation stuff. My second son is also in artificial intelligence, robotics, and computer programming. He actually lives in Los Angeles right now doing that kind of work. My daughter is outside of Las Vegas. sounds very conservative to him. I don't understand going to Los Angeles. know, I have one of my sons was in Austin, Texas for a number of years before he came back to Montana because he really missed Montana. But they do that. That's they go out there and they they try their own things. Conservative and liberal really isn't a label that I kind of define myself. It is it's it's it's It's the kids growing up, you as a parent you want to see that, right? I think a lot of parents would be jealous of that in a lot of ways in American society, because we try to keep our children sort of immature for far too long as a culture in the United States. I think it's very harmful to do that. so to answer your question, I would like to focus more on the theology and production of content down the road. And at some point I like to get away from the business stuff. I enjoy the business. It's very energetic and it keeps me in shape. We enjoy the outdoors here in Montana with hiking and camping and whitewater rafting and skiing in the winter time. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff to do. Yeah. So you're, I mean, you're counter mainstream on most of your theology views. What's the most recent thing you've changed your mind on? The most recent thing, like homeschooling versus like government schooling and stuff like that. used to have a very ideological view of education. know, that I was never really against kids going to college, right? So I think that the children are so different now. From my perspective now, the children are gonna find a different situation with education, depending on their personality and their gifts and what they're trying to accomplish, that one size doesn't fit all. And from my background, it was sort of like, if you're a Christian, that's serious Christian, you just don't send children to government schools. But they're not always consistent about that because they're okay with them going to college. Yeah, yeah. sometimes they have like Christian alternatives, right? But I really kind of view education, you know, because I'm not so hooked into the fundamentalist idea of indoctrination, it sort of has had effects on my view of education and the children. So a little bit more open to different alternatives for my kids. And again, I feel comfortable with doing that because I have that relationship with the children. Mm. And we can talk about details that, you know, come up in what are more secular educational environments, right? So, so I don't fear them like I used to fear them. And a lot of, a lot of fundamentalist fear drives their indoctrination. And that I think is counterproductive. So that's probably the most recent sort of aha moment when you, when you don't fear. the world in a way that's very common to fundamentalist sort of ideological possession. It opens doors that I think are more healthy. Yeah, and probably allows you to live within society and influence it from within in a far more effective way. Yeah, we could do a whole show on that subject of education and Christian faith, like the intersection between those things. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Tim has been really, really good chatting to you. I've enjoyed getting your insights. as I said, you know, I think you got 300 plus videos on beyond, beyond creation science on the covenant creation YouTube channels. So I'm to put links to all of those. And I think your studies on things like Noah's Ark and Adam and Eve in the garden brings so much more beauty and light to a story that sadly has been. destroyed with sort of bone dry literal interpretations. but it's been really good. The last hour, just getting a lot more of, you, Tim, person and your outlook and how that actually changes, what you do today, day to day. So I appreciate you being so, open and honest with it. Maybe just a final question. What do you think? I think I know the answer to this, but yeah, is Trump going to make America great again? And what do you think's ahead for the next few years? You know, the politics thing, I remember 25 years ago when George Bush was elected president and he was elected in a squeaker with Al Gore. you know, George Bush was one of those guys who could like quote hymns, like evangelical hymns, right? In his speeches. And he'd get all the Christians so excited, so excited. Our Christian president. You know, and then you got, you got like all the wars that he started and, And, you know, his vice president was Cheney, right? You know, and I see that as a great disappointment. And I have a brother who served in Iraq in the Iraq war for two tours. You know, so I saw, I saw just what a disaster that was. And, and the letdown after those years, of course, when, you know, Obama got elected and it's like, everything's going bad. So, so I see with Donald Trump, honestly, I see setting up for very much the same disappointment. Mm. it's crazy because a lot of these Christians are like, well, we don't want these people like Liz Cheney, you know, to be close to governmental power because they're neoconservatives and stuff. And I look at 25 years ago, you were voting for all those guys. You're the ones that put them in the power. That's why we got to vote for Trump to save us from the neoconservatives and the globalists and stuff. That was George W. Bush that you voted for. So I look at it, it's kind of funny because I see American conservatives never learn. They just keep doing the same thing over and over again. And then I expect there'll be great disappointment with Donald Trump. I look at his cabinet that he's picking right now. It's like, ooh, this is going to be epic, you know? But you can't convince, it's like this perpetual, we never learn from our mistakes. You know, we just move on to the next one. Right. Now Trump is the Christian guy with the integrity of Bill Clinton from the 1990s. So I laugh at it, honestly. And people can vote for Trump or whatever. it's you have reasons and I get it. There are there are silver linings from that direction. So that's my perspective. I view it as entertainment. And it's just I laugh because I think that if you think that voting for the Republican version of Bill Clinton is going to solve anything? More power to you. I just don't think that's going to work. I see it setting up as another disappointment. four years, we'll see. Maybe I'm totally wrong. Maybe I'm just like, nope, Trump really, really is going to do something. But we'll see. I've lived through four years of Trump. He did all the same things back then, too, and didn't do any of them. Yeah, exactly. Well, I guess whatever happens, hopefully it will lead people, if it is through disappointment, to focusing on the soil around them. And I think that's been a great analogy and probably the big takeaway from this conversation. Well, thanks for inviting me, Luke. I appreciate the time with you. love listening to your episodes as well, and I'll continue to pay attention to your podcast. So thank you again. Awesome Tim, thanks for coming on.