What's The Point Anyway?

What's The Point Anyway - Navigating the Perfect Storm of False Prophecy from Talmudic Judaism, Christian Zionism & Islam with Mike Sullivan

• Luke McInnes

Share episode

In this conversation, Mike Sullivan, a Christian apologist, discusses his theological journey which began as a dispensational Bible College graduate and ended in full preterism. He explains the implications of his beliefs on the understanding of the Kingdom of God, spirituality, and the role of an apologist. The discussion also delves into the political ramifications of theology, the challenges of being a full preterist, and the connections between dispensationalism and global politics. Sullivan addresses anti-Semitism, the Talmud, and the interplay between Talmudic Judaism, Christian Zionism, and Islamic prophecy, warning of potential global conflict. He emphasizes God's sovereignty in a troubling world and the cyclical nature of nations in relation to divine discipline.

Check out https://fullpreterism.com/ for all of Mike's extensive work.

Follow What's The Point Anyway on X and Instagram to keep updated when the latest episodes drop.

Please like, rate, subscribe and share if you enjoyed this episode and think others will get value from listening to it too.

Welcome back to What's the Point Anyway? With me tonight is Mike Sullivan, a leading Christian apologist and author of several books, including House Divided and Armageddon Deception. He's an expert on the political and religious backdrop to the Middle Eastern conflict that's going on at the moment, which is one of many topics I'm looking forward to discussing with Mike. But before we start, first question, what's the point anyway? Hey, brother. Well, you know, as a Christian and as a preterist theologian, what's the point? Well, Christ has come. His kingdom is here. It's set up within my heart. I've been forgiven of my sins. I'm in the New Jerusalem where Christ is as the tree of life. In the New Covenant, I'm face to face with God, unashamed, clothed in the righteousness of Christ. And my My call and commission is with the Holy Spirit. The bride and the spirit say, come, come to the gates of the city and enjoy the living waters and the tree of life, eternal life in Christ. And to me, that is good news. That's the gospel. That's why I call it gospel eschatology, not just preterism. So that's the point. And I love the point. How long have you, I mean you're quite sort of well known in sort of reform theology circles and you know you've been around the traps a while. How long ago was it that you came to this position in terms of eschatology? Yeah, the Lord saved me when I was 18, right out of high school. And, I kind of grew up in Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, Chuck Smith's, the church, kind of the founder of the whole Calvary Chapel non-denomination. That's kind of a denomination. And I immediately went to Bible college. some folks sponsored me, paid for me to go because they, all I could do is read scripture and study scripture and they said, let's get this guy in Bible college. Yeah. I went there, so I was immersed in dispensationalism. Graduated Calvary Chapel Bible College, went back to Calvary Chapel. Kind of was a four-point Calvinist at that point. And started to teach and Pastor Chuck Smith said, it's probably better for you to go somewhere that's more like-minded because of the whole Armenian Calvinism thing. And so I went to... Yes. Yeah. they would claim Chuck always used to claim that he was in the middle. But whenever you hear someone say that they're not an Armenian or they're not a Calvinist, they're always an Armenian every single time. But anyway, so at the time I was a four point Calvinist and a dispensationalist. So I thought, well, John MacArthur will be a good fit for me because at the time John did not believe in limited atonement. So I started going to the master's college. and going to his church, John MacArthur's church. And it was there that I began to think about Reformed theology. And I was like, and I became a five-point Calvinist there. That's a long story in and of itself. And embrace limited atonement or particular atonement. And I was like, you know, maybe these Reformed guys were right on some other things. Because I was always taught, well, the Reformed guys are really good in soteriology. Yeah. their eschatology is horrible. You know, they allegorize and, know, we got a hold to a literal, hyper literal, you know, interpretation of everything. And I was like, you know, because now that I understand God's sovereignty, dispensationalism didn't make any sense that Jesus came to offer a kingdom. But because of their unbelief, now God had to resort to plan B, the cross. And I'm like, that doesn't fit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. was learning about God's sovereignty and grace and everything. So at the master's college, did a report on the kingdom of God. And I went through the gospels and I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna put all my dispensational pre-programming on the shelf. And I just wanna read the gospels with that. And I read the gospel and I was like, number one, Jesus never defines the kingdom as a literal, physical, earthly kingdom. Nowhere. Number one. Number two, there is no postponement of the kingdom. It's not taught anywhere in Jesus. It's not taught by any New Testament author. And I'm like, where did I get this concept? Well, it's a system, right, that is now imposed upon scripture. And you you memorize the system and you're indoctrinated with the system from these pastors and seminary professors. But when you actually read the text itself, you don't get any of that. And I was like, wow, everywhere Jesus defines the kingdom, it's spiritual water. It's spiritual food, right? I heard one dispensational and say, well, the point of Jesus miracles of the the five thousand feeding the five thousand was that Someday in the millennium, you know, we're all gonna be fed. No, he tells you what the point is He says my words are spirit and their life I'm the bread Right feast on me now That's the point eternal life now. It has nothing to do with this this millennium kingdom in the future And I heard you say to, I think you said to Gary Demar recently that like, if the kingdom was a physical thing, then why do you need faith to see it? That doesn't really make sense either. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the classic passage is Luke 17, 20 through 37, where the Pharisees come to Jesus and say, you you keep talking about this kingdom, it's at hand, you know, tell us about the kingdom. He says, when the kingdom comes, you're not going to be able to say, see here or see there, for the kingdom of God is within you or within the heart of a person. And then he goes on and he talks about now dispensationalist like John MacArthur will say, well, yeah, the kingdom is here spiritually in a sense, right? Because we're in that already, but not yet of the kingdom. Well, that is not the context. Jesus goes on and he says, when the son of man is revealed from heaven in verse 24, the Greek word is the straw pay. It's not lightning. It just means a great light like the sun. shines from east to west. So it's when he's revealed at his second coming. That's when the kingdom comes. That's when it would be revealed within. And then Luke 21, just a few chapters later, again, Jesus connects the arrival of the kingdom with his coming upon the clouds, both of them within this generation, his generation. you know, you can't let the dispensationalist, and even a reformed futurist, Yeah. well, yeah, we're in the we're in a spiritual already not yet aspect of the kingdom. But when he comes in the future now, they don't believe, you know, this millennium was circumcision and animal sacrifices and rebuilt temple. But they believe in this, you know, whole paradise on Earth thing. Then it's going to be physical. Jesus says you're not going to be able to see it. It's going to be within you. And I'm going to stick with Jesus on that one. As you were talking about that Mike, I've been thinking about this topic quite a bit lately where I think the word spiritual, not many people understand what spiritual means, right? there's, there's all Christians as you would know, being a promoter of fulfilled eschatology, futurists will yell at you all the time. You spiritualize everything. You you spiritualize everything. And then, That Luke 17 verse is used a lot by people that are into new age and other sorts of ideas and they will talk about being really spiritual and see Jesus said, the kingdom of God is within you. I've heard so many, I think that Eckhart Tolle is famously sort of used that in his book that Jesus Christ was a great visionary and he showed us the way that the truth is within us. What, how would you define, what does it mean to be spiritual? What is, what is a spiritual thing? Well, I think it I think Jesus is exegeting for us the kingdom of Daniel chapter two in Daniel chapter two. It's a prophecy first, it's given to Nebuchadnezzar, and then it's solidified more in Daniel's vision in Daniel chapter seven, which the kingdom comes when the Son of Man comes upon the clouds again, he's connecting the two there, but he says the kingdom is going to be different. It's going to be different than these other four kingdoms, right? the Babylonian kingdom, the Medo-Persian, the Greek, and then the Rome, right? It's gonna be different. And also Old Covenant Israel, because he mixes Rome, iron, with clay, Israel. So even the Old Covenant Kingdom, he's saying the Messianic kingdom is different. It's a stone cut without hands. That phrase without hands means it's not something in this physical world that a man can create with something physical. Mm-hmm. from heaven and it's eternal. It's in the spiritual heavenly realm and God's kingdom is now going to come down on earth, but it's not going to be seen. It's going to be within you. so Jesus is exegeting that and the Jews should have understood that because it's coming from Daniel chapter two and they should have also understood that their kingdom was going to come to an end. Not only does Daniel tell them that their kingdom is coming to an end, but this goes all the way back to Moses and Deuteronomy 32. And Deuteronomy 32, well, I won't get into that right now, but just to answer your question, Jesus is clear. It's something that you can't see. It's from heaven. It's cut without hands. It's not something that we make or we can create. And that's why this whole dispensational concept of the kingdom with physical circumcision which Paul says again he uses that phrase that Daniel uses he says it's a circumcision what without hands it's a circumcision of the heart so this is all a kingdom of conscience it's a kingdom in your mind that purges the conscience and it's a kingdom in your heart in your being Yeah. So Mike, mean, you spent at least half your time now working essentially as an apologist. I might get you to explain what an apologist is. think there's some Christians that won't know what it is and there's non-Christians would be like, you know, what on earth is an apologist? Can you explain what it is? then I've got some questions about how you go about that. Sure. First Peter 3, 5 says that to be ready always to give a defense for anyone that asks you about the hope that is within you. Now in that context, there were mockers mocking the Christians and saying, where's this promise? Jesus promised he was going to come in this generation. This generation's kind of ending. What's going on here, guys? And so they were in a position where they had to defend Jesus's teaching that the kingdom is spiritual and that he was going to come in that generation. So they had to defend that. And so as Christians, as a full preterist, I take that passage and now I defend what Christ has accomplished in AD 70. Whereas Peter's audiences, they've got to prove and defend what was immediately going to take place. Now the church has to defend what has been fulfilled. so Apologist is one who defends the faith, but you know, polemics is also another term. Polemics is where you go on the offense, where I'm challenging Bart Ehrman to a debate, which I have several times. He's written a book on Armageddon. I've written a book on Armageddon. His presupposition is, hey, the book of Revelation failed. It was supposed to take place soon, shortly, quickly. Yeah. didn't come in the world history, Rome didn't fall, blah, blah, blah. And Bart has a field day with mainstream Christianity. He runs rings around them. And for those... And that's what I told him. said, you got to stop picking on these guys that don't know what soon in this generation means. You know, you've got to step out of your comfort zone and deal deal with preterists. And, know, my colleague, Don Preston, has debated Richard Carrier and he just totally destroyed him. But these guys aren't used to debating preterists. Yeah, yeah, So for those listening that might not know, Bart Barthes, New York Times bestseller, New Testament scholar that does, he's not a believer in Jesus. He's a, I mean, what even, what is his worldview? He's, I don't know, I guess he's somewhat respectful towards it. I think there's probably. further along the spectrum scholars that really go after it. I think he attacks a lot of really bad teaching and I'm sort of fine with that, but I would love to see him try to go toe to toe with a guy like you. Is there been any response from him? We tried, but he, I sent him my book, House Divided, and he says, well, I think the predator's views is kind of silly. And I'm like, well, wait a second, you're telling me that the New Testament authors taught that the second coming would take place in their generation. That's exactly what I believe. And so where the rub is, is on this very issue, the nature of fulfillment. He holds. The liberal holds the same faulty presupposition that the Christian futurist does, in that they both think that Christ prophesied to end world history. Now the futurist Christian says, well, world history didn't end in Jesus's generation. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to fudge on the meaning of this generation soon, quickly at hand. And I'm going to spiritualize those promises. And I'm going to still hold that Jesus is prophesying about the end of world history. And the liberal comes along and says, well, wait a second, you Christian, you're fudging on the meaning of this generation soon, quickly at hand. And. Jesus didn't come to end world history, so the Bible's not inspired and we can't trust it and Jesus is just a fallible human like the rest of us. And the full preterist like myself comes in and we say, wait a second, both of you are wrong. You both hold to a faulty premise that Jesus and the New Testament authors are predicting the end of world history or a renewal of the planet Earth. That is not what Jesus is prophesying in the olive discourse. prophesying about the end of the old covenant age that is inseparably connected to the temple that they're looking at. And that age ended in 8070. Therefore, Jesus is a prophet, he is a priest, he is a king, he is God Almighty, and he's faithful and true to his promise. And so we're kind of in the middle where we're fighting both of these systems. But it's a great place to be. I'd rather be no other place than where I am. so that was where I was going to get to with my questioning because, you know, the reformed guys go after full preterism, know, like Doug Wilson's attacks, but then they never publicly debate it. Well, I've challenged Doug to a debate. you know, of course, he wrote a book. He was a co-author in a book, When Shall These Things Be? And there was three partial preterists in that book, and there were like three or four all-millennialists. And they thought they could come together and refute full preterism. Well, we wrote a response to that book. And of course my debate opponent was Keith Matheson and Simon Kistermacher. And I think David Green took on Doug Wilson. But I said, look Doug, look how many years have gone by since both of us wrote these books. And you guys will not step up and do any kind of oral debate with us. In fact, you haven't even responded to our book, which was a response to yours. And he said, yeah, let's. Yeah, let's do a debate. I said, well, finally, you know, it's only taken, you know, 14 years or whatever it's been. And he goes, well, you know, my, can't remember if it was his dad or his wife's dad was sick, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't have the time. And I said, Doug, you always use that excuse. You don't have the time. It's been like 14 years. Now, if you're using that excuse, like for the first year, okay. But after You know, decade goes by, dude. You just can't pull that card. So then the next thing we were going to do a documentary. They didn't want to do a debate, so we were going to do a documentary. Darren Jones was going to do that and Rick Welch was going to finance it. The money was there, right? And the guy was going to give Doug $5000 to donate to the charity of his choice. So he was going to be compensated for his time. Plus he was going to be able to give money. I mean, there was no way he could back out. thought, right. Initially. Yeah, let's do this. So it was going to be me and Don and Doug and whoever he wanted to get like Gentry or whoever. And we had some questions that we were going to ask them. They had to be on film and answer our questions. They would have questions they would give to me and Don and we, it wasn't a formal debate. Yeah, Conversation. Yeah. And Doug backed out of that too. And it's just like these guys never respond to us. It's really sad because I used to think reformed theologians were just the greatest. They were the most intelligent. And then when I came to full preterism, they turn into these weak cowards that just run off and they never, it's like a four point Calvinist coming up. trying to debate a five point Calvinist. It's just there's so much in common there that it's so easy to show the inconsistency in logic and in hermeneutic. And the same is applied to a partial preterist and a full preterist. They go so far, like 95%. And it's so easy to see that that other 5 % is fulfilled. And that's why they don't wanna engage because they don't want people seeing the inconsistency. Yeah. So like looking at you, you, and you know, you just said it before that, you know, you love it. You love what you do, but it's a certain personality trait. And I think you have it. I don't think many others do that. You're like, you're a full preterist, apologist. So Christian, no Christians like you, but know, Bart Ehrman and these types don't like you though. You you've sort of got no friends anywhere. How do you... How do you keep yourself, two things, how do you continue to sort of have passion for what you do? I'm sure there's a lot of people that at some point are like, look, I just don't have the energy to keep doing this. And then the second point is, part of our Christian walk is to be, and you might have different views on this or different interpretations, but to be meek and to be gentle and to be patient and to be loving. Do find it hard to, because you have to be a bit of a hard ass to keep debating all the time. Do you find it hard to then do the sort of softer parts of your Christian faith whilst you have to do that? I do, and I have to remember who my audience is. That's the key in this. If I'm dealing with someone who's a dispensationalist, I can put myself in their shoes when I was 18, when I was 20, right? Like most of them don't know that like circumcision is gonna be reinstituted again or animal sacrifices, right? A lot of them are ignorant on the actual theology and doctrine of dispensationalism. They have a few talking points that they've memorized and stuff. but if I'm dealing with a dispensationalist theologian that is overtly teaching this, or I'm dealing with the Doug Wilson that has been confronted on full preterism for many years and ignorance is not an issue with him, but it's in my estimation, it's a hardness of heart. It's borderline deception. I'm gonna go harder after someone like that and I won't be perceived as loving. I won't be perceived as patient because I know that the level of understanding this person has of the truth but has rejected it. Whereas someone, lay person, I'm gonna be much more loving. I'm gonna be much more patient, more long suffering. Sometimes I'm not and I catch myself. Okay, you're treating this person like you would Ken Gentry. Okay, or Keith Matheson. You got to stop it because you know, that that's just not where this person is. And you have to be kind, you have to bring them along. And you have to be kind, even with the other guys too. But I think that there's a level of you can really go after them and confront them because of what they've said and the contradictions they've made and the misrepresentations of full preterism that they bring. so. Yeah. What are your, what are your favorite sort of worldview groups to discuss things with and to tend to debate with? You know, lately, because I'm really seeing the political ramifications of some of the things I believe now and within the last 10 years. Within the last 10 years, I've seen how Zionism is connected with the Rothschilds. I've seen how I've looked at the history of the Rothschilds and their connection with the Talmud. So I've studied the Talmud. And so I've been kind of cross training and looking at, you know, even weird guys. Most people would consider weird like Alex Jones or even David Ike. And these guys are often la la land on a lot of things like lizard people and, crazy garbage like that. But they're very good at studying the global elite, the Bilderberg group or. you know, the New World Order and these things that we were always told was like, were conspiracy theories, but actually are not. They're really out there in the open, right? And so I'm seeing how the Rothschilds funded Schofield, right? And you can see why, because the evangelical Zionists are the useful idiots to the Rothschild-Tamudic Zionists. Mm-hmm. And that's why in our government, the only real conservatives that get in there are the ones that APAC, the Jewish lobby pays for their campaigns and make sure they get in because they don't want any Christians in our government that are going to say, a second, why are we giving billions of dollars to Israel? You know, they want these Zionist dispensational Christians in there. that just blindly say, yeah, let's throw all the money over there because they're God's people, right? And to me, that in the last 10 years, I've been horrified by that. I've always seen the damning difficulties with dispensationalism and where it leads. But when I began to see the political connections, and how it's being a tool that really fired me up. And that's why I wrote Armageddon Deception because these people are running us into World War III. Yeah. Do you want to give, cause we've spoken about it a bit like dispensationalism. know there'd be people listening to this. So like, I'm still trying to work out what on earth is dispensationalism. Do you want to give like the, you know, the 5,000 foot view of explanation of it and how, and how it then affects us and by extension global politics. Yeah, well, dispensationalism believes that there's, you know, different dispensations, which even reform theology, covenant theology would understand that. But what makes dispensationalism unique and something that's only been around for about 100, 150 years is that it believes that there God has two different distinct people. They believe that The church is simply God's plan B that was never prophesied in the Old Testament. And God's promises made to Israel cannot be fulfilled in the church. And so they have a a literal thousand year millennium paradise on earth type thing that they believe God's gonna begin dealing with Israel again. Well, actually he started in 1948 allegedly. Yeah, nation created in a day. be fulfilled in this millennium and we're just a parenthesis. But here's the problem. We have over 300 Old Testament passages, quotes, allusions by the New Testament authors. They're quoting Old Testament passages and applying them to the church. Dispensationalists are forced to say therefore, the promise of the new covenant cannot apply or be fulfilled in the church. But wait a second, the blood of Christ is the new covenant. So are you telling me that the new covenant is not established or are promises for the church? And this is where their whole system falls apart. They say, well, the new covenant was promised to Israel, the house of Israel. No one denies that. but the benefits of the new covenant are for you. Well, that's like saying a million dollars is not for you, but you have the benefits of it. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't make good nonsense. But that is what the system teaches. There's two distinct peoples of God, promises that are made to Israel cannot be fulfilled in the church and vice versa. And they keep everything distinct. And so Jesus, they have two comings of Christ. There's a secret rapture for the church, right? And then seven years later, The second coming takes place and he allegedly comes with the church and sets up this earthly millennial period where Jesus sits on a literal throne in Jerusalem smelling the sacrifices of animals in a physical temple and Gentiles are coming from all over the world, all the other nations. They have to be circumcised before they can come to Christ. And when they come to Christ, they have to offer up an animal sacrifice to worship Christ. I mean, have these people, and I have to laugh because I was one of them. I mean, have they never read Galatians, Hebrews, Colossians? I mean, it's really absurd on the face of it. I think, I mean, the point you mentioned much earlier where you said, I mean, this has become the, as you lay it out, I think, particularly non-Christians would listen to you and be like, this sort of sounds like madness. And us here as two Christians would agree that it's madness, but it's actually the mainstream, it's probably the mainstream position in the church, isn't it? Even though a lot of those details have not been thought through by the average person that. believes in it. They just think that, yes, there's a future second coming and we need, we need Israel for that to happen. Yeah. You know, and it kind of goes back to the Rothschilds. The Rothschilds have had a lot of money and they're kind of the top of the food chain of the global elite. You you look at the World Economic Forum, you look at the UN, you look at these people that want... And you're from Australia, right? Okay, so you know probably more than a lot of people just the constraints and what they're trying to do to crush our freedoms. And you know, they saw a good thing when they saw Darby, which Darby did work for the Rothschilds when they came up with this Christian heresy, the church understood dispensationalism to be heresy. All right. And but most Christians don't know that those that are entrapped in dispensationalism, this is the only Christianity they have ever known. Like when I got saved in Calvary Chapel, I mean, I go to this mega church man and contemporary music and I, yeah, I'm supposed to interpret the Bible literally. And I had no sense of any other churches or church history or, and so that's just, you know, where these people are. But, so Rothschild saw an opportunity because, know, they're, they're, they're going to create Israel for themselves. The modern state of Israel is just the state of Rothschild. It's not a fulfillment of any Bible prophecy. And so they began funding it. know, it's literally true that it's Israel was established by the Rothschild. You know, the Balfour deceleration was written to Lord Rothschild, which is funny, as we were saying earlier, you know, five years ago, people were like, hang on, this guy's a crazy conspiracy theorist. Talk about Rothschild. like, no, no, like, look it up. I mean, the main street in Jerusalem is called Rothschild Avenue, I think, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. funded, they funded people coming into Israel to populate. they, they, they owned the land. They built all the government buildings. Right. I mean, they, they have lit with their central banking. They've taken over America with the federal reserved act in 1913. And that all goes back to the Talmud. The Talmud teaches them to enslave the Gentile financially through high interest. Yeah. Talmud teaches that they are to kill Christians, they're to depopulate Christians and Gentiles. The Talmud teaches that the Gentile has no soul, he's an animal. Only the Jew, you know, has a soul and a relationship with God. And that in their paradise, when Messiah comes, that each Jew is going to have 2,800 Christian and Gentile slaves at their beckon. Mm. you can see how they like the dispensational premillennial heresy because they become their useful idiots politically to constantly praise Israel as God's people. Yeah. And the, do you want to talk a little bit about this, Derby and Schofield Bibles that you referenced? Because that really was the start of this whole movement, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Darby and then Schofield kind of took Darby stuff and then the Rothschilds funded Schofield. I can't remember the name of the attorney. I have it in my book, but there was a Zionist Jewish attorney that that took Schofield in. Schofield got out of prison. mean, he was a fraud before he became a Christian. He left his wife. He abandoned his his his wife and his kids. I mean, this guy was a low life and this is the guy, this is the founder pretty much of dispensationalism and Oxford funded this. Now Oxford never funded any Christian book, published any Christian book, but when they saw what Schofield and Darby were teaching, they're like, we want to fund this. We will publish this. Not only will we publish this, We're going to give free, we're going to give these free Bibles out to as many pastors in indoctrinate America as much as we possibly can with this heretical system that they absolutely love, which taught the Schofield Bible teaches that it is sin. And John Hagee teaches this on a regular basis. It is sin for anyone in America, Christian or otherwise. to not support national Israel. You are in sin. And so that is why guys like Mike Huckabee, I'm very concerned. I love president Trump. I love a lot of stuff he's doing, but man, is he ever surrounded by these Zionists. He has got to wake up. But that's a huge problem because you know, president Trump will talk about Jerusalem, you know, making an embassy, making that the capital. And he says he refers to Jerusalem as the eternal city. That's right out of the town. That's, know, and when he says that, I constantly think of Hebrews 13, 14, where it says here on earth, we have no abiding or eternal city. We look to the city that is about, he uses the Greek word about mellow, about to come. And that's the new Jerusalem, the new covenant system. that was going to be matured in AD 70 when the old covenant system was removed. And that's the issue with dispensationalism and even Talmudic Zionism. They don't understand that the old covenant has been taken out of the way completely in AD 70. And if that is gone, then the new covenant is here and the new covenant is spiritual. Everything that constituted old covenant Israel a people, a circumcision, a baptism, a temple, sacrifices, a priesthood, a land. All of those things in the New Testament, Jesus and the New Testament authors say are all spiritual. Every single one of those. We are a priesthood. Abraham was looking towards a heavenly land, Hebrew says. Mm. Hebrews again says we look to a city not here. We look to the New Jerusalem that is coming down from heaven, that stone cut without hands, right? The kingdom. Everything is spiritual in the New Covenant. You don't see Jesus or any New Testament author anticipating going back to the types and shadows of an Old Covenant because Hebrews 8.13 says, talking about the Old Covenant, he says, that which is obsolete and is soon to vanish in 8070? It did. And that's how you get Isaiah prophesying that swords will be beaten to plowshares, which should mean a world with no war, but instead you've got Christians as the biggest funders of war in the world, essentially now as those useful idiots that you say. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And of course, Isaiah two is talking about what the gospel is going to do. The nations are coming to Zion, but going back to Hebrews, Hebrews says that the church is a city of the living God. The church is Zion. We're Mount Zion and we're preaching the gospel and the nations are coming to us. And when it says that they don't learn war anymore under the old covenant, the kingdom was established by the literal sword. Right. Go kill the Canaanites. It was all sacred space, the land. All the blessings were in the land under the new covenant. Paul's favorite phrase is what? In Christ, in Christ. So now we have a radical transition between old covenant, physical, those things which can be created with your hands, temples. All right. Now everything is in Christ. Christ is the fulfillment of all of those types and shadows. And so that's the radical disconnect that these guys need to see is that the old covenant is gone. The new covenant is here. It's spiritual. It is within you. And if you don't get that, you know, it's going to be really hard to understand the Bible. Yeah. So how does, you know, I mean, you've referenced the Talmud and sort of objectives of the Talmud, which I mean, is essentially the most extremist and racist religious texts that exists in the world. But I mean, I'm sure you've been called an anti-Semite, Mike, for saying some of these things. Are you an anti-Semite? You know, this is what I always do. And I was actually on a group yesterday. They wanted me to come on and they actually knew who I was, which kind of surprised me. And I said, I think you guys are approaching this wrong. I said, I make someone, if they claim to be a messianic Jew, like say Dr. Michael Brown, whom I debated on the charismatic issue, First Corinthians 13. But he claims to be a messianic Jew, right? Well, Gary Damar in his debate with him, he asked him, said, what tribe are you from, Mike? And Michael Brown said, well, I think I'm from Judah. OK, well, first of all, there's no thinking about it. You either know what tribe you're from and you can prove it or don't tell me you're some kind of racial Jew, because if you're a racial Jew, you have to be connected to a tribe and you have to prove it. OK, so. through the temple records, which they had up until AD 70. Yeah. them through the Roman armies. So if you're defining yourself as a Jew racially, what I do is I say, prove what tribe you're from. Once they can't prove that, then I'm going to say, okay, let's look at some of your own encyclopedias. Then I pull up some of their encyclopedias on top of like 13 other ones that clearly say a Jew is not a race. OK, so I say, according to your own encyclopedia, a Jew is not a race. And it even says that's a myth. That's a misnomer. OK, so you can't prove what tribe you're from. Your own encyclopedia says you're not a race. So then they say, well, I'm a Jew because I embrace Old Testament Judaism. OK, so now you're defining. a Jew as someone who embraces a religion. That's why Sammy Davis Jr., a black guy, could say he was a Jew, right? Obviously, you know, there's a difference between Benjamin Netanyahu's claiming he's a Jew who is whiter than my booty and Sammy Davis Jr. So what's going on here? Well, then you have to say, hey, the old covenant ended in AD 70. So I'm not going to play your game. I don't, I guess I'm a real anti-Semite because I don't acknowledge there's any Jew post 8070. You're either a believer in Christ in the New Jerusalem or you're one of those liars outside in the darkness of Revelation 20 and you're an unbeliever and you need to come in the gates and be a believer in Christ. That's how I see it. You're either a believer in Christ or you're an unbeliever. There's no special status. There's no covenant. There's no covenantal status. for a Jew today. That category is, I just take it off the table. If they can't prove they're a Jew, then how am I an anti-Semite? And if you're gonna claim that Semites are here today, what are we gonna do with the Christians that were in Palestine and some of these Arabs that can go back to Abraham to some degree? So you're anti, you know, you're an anti-semite because you're going after those semites. So it's just a, it's a, it's a political game and it's a tool that they wield. They're always the victim. They never want to talk about the hundred nine countries they've been kicked out of. because a country welcomes them in, they keep what they're teaching in the Talmud secret. The Talmud teaches that if a Jew tells a Gentile what's in the Talmud, that Jew is to be put to death. Why are they so secretive about what's in the Talmud? Because like I said, the Talmud teaches that they're to destroy whatever country they're in, just like the Muslims. And that's the dirty little secret about the Talmud. When you study the Talmud in comparison to the Quran, they're basically the same thing, except the Jew, quote unquote, is much smarter and they keep it more secret. And because they have more money, they've learned to take over the education systems, the political systems, the health organizations, the media. So they're able to be less... less out there in the public, whereas the Quran and the Muslims are in your face. mean, they're going to strap a bomb on their kid and go, you But I think things are changing. I think people are beginning to see what the Talmud teaches and the connections to the Rothschilds. And I just hope that we don't get into World War Three before we really wake up to what's what they're doing. So I'd love to then chat about this potential World War III because I mean, an Armageddon deception gets into this, that it's a perfect storm with Talmudic Judaism, Christian Zionism and Islamic prophecy. Where's it all taking us? Yes. And that is the vicious circular cycle that we have not been able to get out of. And it is the perfect storm because you have Islam who, who ripped off a bunch of stuff from Christianity and a stuff, a bunch of stuff in the old Testament and even out of the Talmud to form their religion and their religion teaches. Well, the Mahadi and their version of Jesus' second coming won't come about until they wage war with the Jews. And then Jesus' second coming is going to help come in the final battle and destroy the Christians and destroy the Jews. So that's them. And that's what ISIS was trying to do, right? They were trying to get a ground war with the United States to fulfill their quote unquote in time battle Gog and Magog. Then you have the Talmudic Zionists that believe they can't bring in the Messiah unless they wage war against the Muslims and against the Christians. So they're constantly trying to destroy us and most Christians have no idea that they're trying to destroy us. They think that we have a Judaic Christian ethic and they have no idea what the ethic of the Talmud is that these people want to kill them and destroy them and depopulate them. But so and even like Benjamin Netanyahu, many Christians don't understand that religious people in Israel today view Benjamin Netanyahu as kind of like the John the Baptist and their Talmud, the John the Baptist, the one who prepares the way for the Messiah. He has to wage war with the nations to bring Messiah in. Other people consider Benjamin Netanahu to be the Messiah because also the Messiah, when he comes, he wages war, right, to bring in the temple, to rebuilding of the temple and so on. there is, and then you have the Christian Zionists who, don't they they're not going to strap a bomb on their kid they're not like the muslims and they're not going to directly go out there and kill a palestinian christian but they have no money giving the talmudic zionists to do the dirty work so they can fulfill prophecy and so this is the circular system we've been in and the globalists have been sitting back and saying this is going to work this is going to work for us We're going to play all three of these systems to work out for us. And if you look at the Albert Pike letter, know, it says the third world war is going to be between Israel and the Muslim world. And when there's no second coming of Jesus and there's this religious void that takes place after the war, we're going to fill that with atheism and humanism, transhumanism. technocracy, the worship of the state. And there will be a lot of disillusioned Christians because yeah, the war happened and they didn't fly off the earth. So did their faith fail? Well, if your faith is always in trying to find out who the Antichrist is or who the six six figure is, if your faith is all about flying off the earth, then you're gonna have a crisis of faith because none of that has to do with the gospel of Christ. None of that is biblical. So I see all of this moving towards when this happens, if it happens, there is gonna be a void. But you know what? The transhumanist is wrong. It's not gonna be filled with that. It's gonna be filled with Christianity with full preterism. There's gonna be a reformation in the church, in the area of eschatology, and it's gonna be forced. at some point. And I think that that is going to be the climactic event where the church has to wake up, has to get back to Scripture. Yeah. I think there's a lot of people that call themselves Christian by name and I, and I'm not judging anyone's heart. I don't think it's me to do, but I just see it. think there's people whose faith is in a different Jesus and I hate to say that, but I was talking to my wife the other day and I'm just like, I don't recognize this stuff because I've been in scripture and I see scripture so clearly after 35 years. It's like this is a totally different religion, especially dispensationalism, you know, going back to sacrifices, going back to circumcision. mean, Paul and Galatians says that these are so-called brethren. Mmm. are trying to get the Gentiles, he says, they are accursed. He says they are preaching another gospel. And yet Dispensationalism's gospel is that in the climax of redemptive history, we're going back to circumcision. We're going to circumcise the Gentiles so they can offer sacrifices. And it's just like, that is a totally different religion. I'm glad you believe in the Trinity. I'm glad. You say you believe in salvation by grace, but you're going back to the law. You know, your system takes you back to the law and justification by the law, whether you want to admit it or not. That's where your theology ends up. Yeah. So Mike, I'm interested to hear you're a sovereign grace guy. And for those that don't totally understand that you believe in the total sovereignty of God and you believe that God draws people to him that that are his and therefore the sovereignty means he's ultimate. Yeah. It's not a plant. He's not a plan B God. Right. And then you, and you know, lot of reform guys who are sovereign grace. have a yet future second coming. So you know, you're in a rare position where it's past fulfillment. How do you think and we and you and I can talk about this and I see the world in a really, really similar way to you do with everything happening now. How do you reconcile this with how is God operating in the world now? How's he letting all this happen? Is he is I mean, is he actively making it happen or is he sitting back and letting us create our own reality? You know, it's God's sovereignty is the only comforting doctrine I have. Cause when I started studying the new world order, the Talmud, the Quran, I mean, I saw the depravity of man to a level I've never seen before. Right? Like I knew intellectually the depravity of man. can, you can ask me about the doctrine of depravity man. I could rattle off scripture after scripture and talk about it. But it wasn't until I just got knee deep in what they actually believe and what they wanna do to kids, what they wanna do to us, depopulate us, poison our food, poison our wine. And I was just like, this is just, and I have to pull myself out of it and remember that God is sovereign. I'm sure when... I went down, I learned all of this before I was a believer. So you can imagine how dark I got. was like, no, yeah, it's hopeless. It's totally hopeless. Yeah. So I just go back to like Daniel, I think it was four verse 35, where Nebuchadnezzar, you know, God has totally humbled him before, you know, he has this dream and Daniel interprets the dream. He's like, yeah, I'm the head of gold. You know, I have done all of this. And then God just boom makes him crazy. for seven years, he's out in a field literally with the animals. He went out of his head and God humbled him just like that. And when he comes back, he says, God is the God of heaven and earth. And when he does something, no one can resist what he does. Right. He figured out real quick who's in charge. And I don't know why God has allowed the Rothschilds to have He gave him so much money. He gave them so much political power. But, you know, I'm sure God's people during the Babylonian reign didn't understand it. In fact, we know they don't. They didn't because they were weeping as they were going in. The Babylonians would stick big hooks through their skin and pull them naked. And some of them would gouge out their eyes. I'm sure some of them were like, why is God allowing this? But God allows evil in this world. He's sovereign and he uses it for his purposes. And it's a hard reality to learn, especially when you're in the midst of evil or you're experiencing suffering, but God works all things out for the good of his people. I mean, you look at Job, you look at Joseph's life, you look at Daniel's life, you know, God always shows himself sovereign. You know, I'm not afraid of the Rothschilds. You know, I pray in precatory prayers against them all the time. And I'm I know God is going to sustain the church. Now, if you're a futurist, you're dispensationalist and you're studying this stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of scary because you're thinking that they're the fulfillment of 666 and and, you know, the earth is going to burn up and all this stuff, but it's just. None of that is true. So what do you think, you mentioned the Elwood Pike letter. When was that written? Was it early 1900s or late 1800s? is a debated issue, right? Like some people think Albert Pike actually wrote it and other people think it was a forgery. It was discovered in 1970, which is right around the time of the trilateral commission, which is a globalist, know, Brzezinski and Rockefeller and Kissinger pretty much headed that up. So to me, it's like the protocols of Zion. And to me, I look at the doctrine of the document. I'm not going to get caught up in the weeds of, it a forgery? When was it written? Who wrote it? As much as I'm looking at the doctrine and the theology of it, and I'm seeing if it's being implemented and the logic of it. And so that's kind of how I look at the Albert Pike letter. And I'm like, this is beautiful. I mean, this is if I'm the enemy, I'm like, this is exactly what I would do. Yeah. I see it being implemented. I see the formation of Israel by the Rothschilds for this very purpose, because the Rothschilds plan has always been to play both sides of a war, fund both sides of nations in a war, destroy the nations economically and have those nations be in debt to them. Now, if they can do a third world war and the currency, the fiat system is already imploding. And they know that, right? So they need this third world war with Israel and the Muslim world to draw all the nations in, in hopes to bring about their great reset, in hopes to bring about their agenda 2030, right? And their CBD digital currency. That's what this is really all about. And they're going to play each one of these three religions. They're gonna play them like suckers and if we don't wake up to it, they're gonna try and get their way, so. Hmm. See it's, mean, the challenges, you know, we spoke before about like what dictates someone being Jewish and no one can really trace the lineage back more than a few generations. But probably the, mean, some of the ones, some of the people that are the most caught up in this really is like, yeah, average sort of secular Jew who's... you know, come back to this land of Israel. That's now just like a complete nutter war zone. And I think they're cannon fodder for their, know, elite class above them as well. They don't really care about, you know, what, happens with them. and, know, same as like the average sort of Islamic guy that's in Palestine or in Syria or whatever, they don't really care. You know, as long as you, as long as you have these sort of ethnic debates going, going on and and battles and wars, then that suits their purposes, doesn't it? Yeah, there's almost a civil, almost like a civil war that's going to take place in Israel, where you have a lot of secular Jews are like, we don't want to kill all these Palestine Palestinians, man. And, you know, we don't want the law of the land to be the Talmud because Tel Aviv is like the homosexual capital of the world. It's like, it's like our San Francisco on steroids. You know, I mean, that's the last thing these people want is the Talmud to be in place. Right. And then get the death penalty. So. They're in a really strange position to be in. And I don't know if you've heard this lately. I was going to do a show on it today, actually, where I find it interesting that a trillionaire or a billionaire, the Rothschilds, created Israel. Now they're talking about there's a billionaire in Ukraine that's talking about creating the New Jerusalem or the heavenly Jerusalem. And what they're talking about is combining Ukraine and Israel having Israel's land expand into into Ukraine and that that somehow is going to be the new Israel or the new Jerusalem and they're trying to convince Christians that this is the fulfillment of Revelation 21 and I'm like that is so stupid but yet look at how many Christians have already bought that yeah so I'm like no Yeah. So what do you do? There's a really sort of strange trend happening that I've seen and you would have seen it the last few years where, mean, probably three years ago, four years ago, you're mentioning, mentioning something critical about Judaism would have been like shooting Bambi. And now you jump on X and like, or anywhere. like, it's like everyone is starting to turn against Israel and Judaism. Yeah, whether that stuff on like, mean, jump on X and type in Holocaust and say what you read, you know, go read about Talmud or all this stuff. Do you think that could be like the Talmudic elites trying to get people to turn on Israel? I've heard that theory. I've actually heard that, that, that they're trying to get people to, go against Trump who secretly isn't a Zionist. And so I have no idea where Trump is really. I don't know how much of it's ignorance on his part or if he's a part of the whole system. Mm. I just wrote my book in dedication to him, hopes that he gets it and reads it and can see a difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of the Zionists and Islam. But I don't really know the answer to that, but I am excited to see what you're seeing. And that is, I mean, look at Candace Owen. mean, she has, mean. after what's taking place with her and Ben Shapiro, mean, she saw what's behind the scenes, right? And now she's, she did a documentary on the US Liberty, you know, when Israel tried to do that false flag by sinking one of our ships to try and pull us into a war with Egypt in a third world war. And she's doing a great job. And she just won anti-Semite of the year, right? Just for asking basic questions. And you see guys like Stu Peters, I think he's doing a great job. And on and on it goes, people are waking up to what they're doing. And I think they know that. And that's why they're trying to usher in this. The premise of my book and for the last 10 years, Albert Pike, right? The next thing that's going to happen is there's going to be a bomb threat. There's going to be some kind of major explosion here in the United States. They're going to blame it on Muslims. So they get all these dispensational Zionists all in a frenzy to go to war, to join Israel and attack Iran. I mean, you can see it a mile away, right? And it's going to force Trump's hand. Mmm. Trump has ran on this agenda of supporting Israel, calling them God's people, calling Jerusalem the eternal city, right? Making Jerusalem or Israel great again. And so it's going to force his hand. And that's what scares me the most. Because I see that coming. And unless God intervenes or he may allow it by giving God disciplines his people by giving them what they want. Remember when Israel was in the wilderness and they said, well, we want what we had in Egypt, you know, and we want this manna. And he gave them so much manna, or so much meat from the quail that they began throwing it up, right? And I'm just wondering if God is saying, okay, you've rejected my word. Like you've rejected the nature of the kingdom I've taught you. You've rejected all the time statements. You've rejected that the old covenant is gone. You don't understand what the new covenant is. You don't understand that I've already come and established. You're going back to sacred land and sacred space when you don't understand that you are my sacred space. I dwell in you. You've rejected my teaching. You want this war so much. I'm going to give it to you. Yeah. And when I don't come and you don't fly off the earth, then you better get on your knees and on your face and cry out to me. I honestly think that it may get to that. Yeah, I think for 150 years, Christians have wanted to give away our status as God's chosen people to another group who are robbers and thieves and God's saying, all right, all right, you can give it to them and you can see how you enjoy that. I, great point, exactly. I think that God is disciplining us by allowing us to believe this nonsense and to reap the consequences of this heresy. And he is gutting us. I mean, we have become, I grew up thinking that our country was the greatest country on earth. The most godly, the most righteous, right? And then for the last 10 years, I've been studying this new world order. Like we were taken over in 1913. know, I mean, and I've seen how we're like the host to the parasite of the new world order. mean, they are feasting on our corpse. They're using our wealth to destroy nations, to wipe out Christians in Syria. Hmm. I mean, I told my wife the other day, I'm like, man, babe, I mean, this is just totally rocked my world, you know, on what our country's about. And it's, and my tax money, my tax money is going towards giving Israel an ungodly, despicable nation and agenda so that they can do the greater Israel project and kill Christians. I'm like, I'm getting pissed off, man, just to be honest with you. mean, I, I, I, I visit Tim Bershett, who's my congressman. I went into his office with my book and I said, you just passed the anti-Semite awareness act, right? Which made it illegal for even Christians to criticize Israel or a Jew. And I said, wait a second, Tim. I said, You realize that me as a Christian apologist, you understand how the Muslims have played this game in Europe and they've played the game here that if we criticize Muslims or what the Talmud or the Quran teaches, that's hate speech. Is that not wrong? He says, yeah. Now, this is before I I was baiting him. I was leading him up. So, that's absolutely wrong. So I said, you see the problem as a Christian apologist that if I address what the Quran teaches and I show how violent their religion is and all I'm doing is exposing what they're teaching, they come back and they sue me for hate crime or hate speech. You would stand up for me, wouldn't you, Tim? yeah, that's unconstitutional. Why did you just sign this thing for Jews? Now you've done the same thing. They're playing the same game. I said, I'm an American. I have free speech. I have freedom of religion. As a Christian, I can look at the Quran and I can look at the Talmud and I can call a spade a spade. And I'm going to continue to do it even though you signed this. said, do you even know what the Talmud teaches? You're one of my congressmen in Tennessee. I said, did you know that the Talmud teaches that they're supposed to kill you there to depopulate you? They're to enslave you financially and even physically. you understand? Did you know that they don't even believe you have a soul, Tim? He just looked at me. Most Christians don't know that. And I'm like, and you just gave them a free pass. I can't criticize them now because now they can come and sue me or they can say I'm guilty of hate speech or a hate crime. And that's where we are. Those are the bad consequences, the bad fruit of this heresy. And when it gets mixed with politics, it's a dangerous combination. Yeah. So what you're feeling ahead, Mike, I mean, mine is I think it probably has to get worse before it gets better. see it the same way? Yeah. do. I think we have to bear the consequences of this bad fruit. We have to reap what we've sown. And isn't this the history? I mean, you look at Israel, right? Cycles. Repent, come back, get weak, compromise, know, go back into idolatry. And I think that's, that's a cycle of the nations and that's a cycle of our country. We started out pretty decent and we've become humanistic and the Christianity that we do embrace is this heretical Zionism. And I think, I think that's what God is doing. He's like, okay, this is what you want. Let's see where it leads you. And then you're going to have to cry out to me. And then I think we will see. a lot of productive growth in the world. And I think that God will take down the whole globalist cabal, but at some point he's going to raise up another in him. God loves this. He raises up like Pharaoh, right? He says, I'm raising up Pharaoh to show my power. God loves a good brawl. I love a good brawl. I really do. I love casting down vain imaginations that seek to exalt themselves above my king. I love a good brawl and God loves a good brawl. He loves to take a small minority of truck drivers, casket drivers, waiters, waitresses, fishermen in the first century to confound the wise, to confound the PhDs in theology. or the political elite. And, you know, there will always be evil in the world. Even in the new creation, there's evil. In Isaiah 65, there's sinners, there's birth, there's evangelism taking place. And that's what we see in Revelation. In the climax of redemptive history, when the New Jerusalem comes down, the gates are open because there's sinners still out there. There's still evil. And You know, that's going to continue and God is always going to triumph over over evil. He's always going to show his sovereignty. He's always going to show that he is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And that's my only hope. That's the light. Definitely. Well, Mike, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. It's been really insightful. And you've got, mean, you're doing what you do. You've got that hope and you're going to work to try to fill the void that's increasing from people that are seeing the hopelessness. So I'm going to add all your books and links to your articles and sites, you know, in the YouTube channel, in the show notes and. I recommend people checking it out because I think you're a rare Christian in the world speaking in an anti-war tone with a lot of common sense. So if only we can get your message out there. I appreciate the time brother. It's great meeting you. Thanks, Mike. I'll hit stop, but just don't.