What's The Point Anyway - Gnostic Christianity, Self-Righteousness and Clearing the Logs From Our Eyes With Ward Fenley

In this conversation, Luke McInnes interviews Ward Fenley, exploring his background, family dynamics, and theological perspectives, particularly around preterism and the afterlife. Ward shares his personal journey of faith, the impact of his father's struggles with substance abuse, and how these experiences shaped his views on Christianity. The discussion delves into controversial topics such as the nature of eternal life, the role of love in faith, and critiques of modern evangelicalism. Ward and Luke explore the complexities of belief, the nature of God, and the importance of humility in faith. They discuss the psychological aspects of belief, the holiness of God, and the nature of Jesus as central to understanding Christianity. The dialogue also touches on the dangers of self-righteousness and the implications of political ideologies on faith, emphasizing the need for a genuine relationship with Jesus and a humble approach to spirituality.

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Chapters

• 1:00 Introduction to Ward Fenley and His Background
• 12:00 The Journey of Faith and Understanding Fulfillment
• 17:37 Understanding Heaven and the Afterlife
• 22:59 The Fulfillment of Prophecy and the Presence of God
• 30:49 The Beauty of Christ and Human Struggles
• 37:18 Judgment and Grace in the Reformed Community
• 41:23 Understanding Jesus: The Heart of the Gospel
• 55:55 The Beauty of Creation and Responsibility
• 59:19 Faith Beyond Evidence
• 1:13:04 The Ultimate Goal: Glorifying God

Transcript

0:05

Alright, welcome back to What's The Point? Anyway, my guest today is Ward Fenley. Ward joins us from Arizona. He runs the website New Creation Ministries. This is my first time chatting with Ward, but several people, including some past guests, have told me that I must get him on. I followed Ward's content at his website for some time. I really like the way he goes about things, but I know, as I was just saying to him, I know very little about his personal life, so... This will be a chance to learn a bit more about that and importantly his application around those worldviews into the question. What's the point anyway? So Ward, as mentioned the first question for everyone always is what is the point anyway? What is the point? I would say the shortest description would be, even though I don't agree with the whole thing, the Westminster Confession of Faith Catechism, the chief end of man, humanity, is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Yeah. have you always believed that what did you grow up Christian or what's, what's a bit of your backstory? Well, you know, my dad was he was an academic. He was a professor of violin at CSU Sacramento. I was born in 66 and he was there until 94, 93 or 94. And he was just sort of an, oh, you know, just kind of one of those free love. academics, agnostic, probably agnostic. His parents were both very controlling helicopter parents, dispensationalists. Abbot, his mom was an avid follower of John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, C.H. McIntosh, all the old classic disbeys. dad, you know, he, he just grew up with that and that's what he heard. And it was kind of funny, you know, he, got his funding for school, his, degrees. And one of the requirements was you have to play vile. was a professor of violin. You have to play violin for church. If we're going to keep paying for your, you know, your, your doctorate. And, he got his doctorate at university of Southern California and man, once he got his doctorate and started teaching, he, he was a wild man. But you know, the Lord got ahold of his heart. I do believe that when I was about 10 years old. But he had already, you know, he had already had a lot of, just habits instilled and ingrained in him. And so he was a troubled individual, battled with depression. But he was a, like I said, he was a follower of Darby. And of course, you know, by that connection and listening to the pastor who had his THM from Dallas, this was in Sacramento, we started going to a different church. My mom took me to church since I was zero. Mom was just kind of a Southern Baptist but involved in the Scottish covenant, sort of Southern gospel church, trying to be contemporary back then in the 70s, late 60s, early 70s. we were parents together through that time. Yes, yes. They were together for 42 years. They never got divorced. but, you know, dad had his stroke. were, we were very close in a superficial way. He was a very loving, very affectionate father, like I said, he battled depression. He was always on a barbiturates, uppers, downers, alcohol. then Yeah. you know, he became a Christian when I was 10 and, tried his best, you know, tried his best and really knew the blood of Christ. He knew he didn't have anything to bring before the Lord, nothing, you know, except Thanksgiving. But, when I was 15, he got addicted to cocaine and that was a, took a I was a judgmental little rabid new believing evangelical having been converted. I really believe I became a Christian, I was converted at a dispensational youth camp in Lassen Pines, California. And an evangelist came out. from Shroom Lake, New York, Word of Life Ministries. you know, it was just all about the beast, all about the last days, all about the tribulation and pre-tribulation rapture. You definitely want to be raptured or you're going to go through hell on earth, know, the whole thing. And I learned all the charts, Clarence Larkin and all that good stuff. Read lots of Darby, lots of Kelly, lots of Macintosh. And then, you know, dad passed away in 02. I had shared, I became a believer in fulfillment in 1994, shared fulfillment with him. He despised it. My mom came to see it. That created a greater rift between us. But I gave him an article I had written called, a letter to my dad. It's on my website, eschatology.com. And it was a letter to my dad. My dad gave me a book. uh, by John Nelson Darby and it was lectures on the second coming and he specifically wanted me to read Darby on Romans 11. And so Romans 11 is like just in my estimation is an ironclad case for fulfillment. And so I wrote, I don't know, 25, 30 page paper to my dad refuting John Nelson Darby, you know, and this is, this is probably around 90, I don't know, 96, 97 and uh, how long was that after he'd started, he'd become addicted to cocaine? So he was addicted to cocaine, I believe in 82, 83. Yeah. And, and then, and I became a preterist, uh, in 94. And then I think the Darby article, I think I wrote that refuted it in 90, I don't know, 96 or 97. I go back and look at the creation date on Microsoft, you know, And so what was your, I mean, when you said your dad, you know, battled with cocaine, so early eighties, was that, was that and everything that goes with it much of the rest of his life or did he sort of then come clean for a bit? Actually, it was kind of interesting, you know, he became very paranoid, spent a good portion of my inheritance on it. No, I don't hold a grudge at all. don't. It's all good. But he, what happened was, is he was having a paranoid. episode on cocaine at about 530 in the morning at California State University where he was teaching. And he drove over there in the morning and was chasing a man who was carrying engine parts from the engine into the trunk. An imaginary man. he, and you know, he's a violinist and he was trying to get this man and he had a beer bottle in the back and swatting at this man into the car, cut his hand wide open, flagged down a jogger and the jogger scared to death. naturally, you you see a bloody hand handed man saying help me catch this man stealing my engine parts. And so he called. He went to nearest, I guess, payphone. I think it was at the time and called Campus Security and the Campus Security guy came, saw dad and would have arrested him. But he was a former student. Praise the Lord. Took him to American river mental institution and by God's grace, he was there forced rehab for about six weeks and got off cocaine, but never stopped the struggle with alcohol and. You know, and he got on antidepressants, know, Zoloft, Elaville, I think he finally ended up on Prozac, but none of that stuff works very well when you're on alcohol. So, yeah, that w that was the story until he finally had a heart attack. His heart stopped in 2002. And so, yeah, very, very, eventful and colorful experience with my dad. How did it, you know, so I think whenever substance abuse gets involved in families, it always causes tumultuous events. whether their families are Christian or not. I've spoken, you know, I know a lot of people in the sort of preterist community and past guests, even on this show, we've spoken about it. Like Daniel Rogers had these experiences. know, Joel Rosenhouse certainly has was. What was it like in the later years with your debt? Was there a real rift as a result of you seeing fulfillment? Huge, enormous. Yeah. It was very fascinating actually. So we decided to have, I got married in 2000. We had our first born in late 2000, October 2001. And we decided to do a family trip and my ex-wife, was pregnant at the time with our second, Truman. And we decided to do a trip in June of 2002, a Southern Utah, Northern Arizona trip. Beautiful Canyon country, red rock, all that good stuff. And I had come across it in 95. I was working for a piano company traveling through eight states, came across St. George, Utah, fell in love with it and told my parents all about it. Well, we went on this family trip and we had two cars and on one leg of the trip, My dad and I decided, hey, let's just the two of us get in a car. And my wife at the time, my first born, they got in the car with my mom. my dad and I had our first birds in the bees talk. I mean, literally, literally our first birds in the bees talk. We talked about everything from sex to struggles, you name it, alcohol, everything, music. It was tremendous. And we even talked about predatorism a bit. We didn't go into it too much, but, he did. It was very interesting in between that. was June, 2002. died in August of 2002 and about, I'd say a month before he died, he had asked me for my articles for me to send him a bunch of my articles. Alright. I thought, wow, what's going on here? And I never did. didn't have a chance. Well, probably did. But regretfully, I never sent them to him. But he passed away. I think he was seeing something. I think he was seeing something. He was a very logical man. But alcohol and drugs can interfere with that. Mm. you know, even when you're sober, it can kind of get in the way. But I think that he was having somewhat of a revelation toward the end there. And if I could go back, I would do, I would have done things differently. You know, I would have sent those articles right away and I would have really tried to tap into further development of our relationship and just tried to answer questions and be gentle because when he was struggling with his addictions, like I said, I was a rabid judge mental evangelical. dispensationalist and you'd be hard-pressed to find a worse case than me at the time so you know dad just felt judged by his kids and but mom by the grace of God stayed with him all those years a lot of tragedy you know affairs lots of affairs And my mom just stuck it out and she, she became a believer. That's what I mean. She became a believer in 94 and that really, really ticked him off a lot. Um, but in 2002, I think he was right on the cusp. think it was on the cusp, you know? Um, but like I said, he was very depressed and I, know, we, we don't know really what stopped his heart, but we, we feel that it, some of us feel that it may have been an intentional, uh, ingestion of sleeping pills. that did it so yeah. Do you think, I mean, you spend a lot of time, you know, debating, you know, and getting into the areas of apologetics, but it's interesting. I look at you now and you have a very sort of gentle demeanor and you're very loving in the way you go about things. I know all of us go on our own journeys and I've heard that, you know, and we even mentioned it before, that probably early days, you know, you're... You're a bit of a sort of smart kid and love getting in debates. Do you think you did? Did your dad start to come around and this flows through not just to your dad, but also in other discussions we have people with people. Was it logic that started to show him these things or was it him watching you and thinking there's something there's something about the war, the way that ward is living out his life that, that brings me to wanting to understand that more. Yeah, that's a real good question. No, it wasn't. And I should correct you a little bit. I try to be gentle. I have lots of moments of not being gentle. Ask Tim Martin. You know, ask Jail Vaughn. Ask any of these guys who disagree with me. I try. I try really hard. I really do because I know... the characteristic of the kingdom is love and mercy. know, first Corinthians 13, you know, it's just, and so I am, I just want you to know, I am striving, but I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, succeed all the time. So that, don't believe that's what my dad was seeing. I think being the academic that he was, now, mind you, When I was a little kid, okay, they had me enter talent shows. know, and because dad, you know, he has doctorate music, mom had a bachelor's degree in music. They both had perfect pitch. I didn't get it. You know, I mean, go figure that probably was a huge source of insecurity for me, but they were adamant that I was educated musically. Yeah. And I think they both knew that music can have a profound impact upon you in many areas of life. you know, there's a lot of evidence even academically that it can help you. But when I was a young boy, they had me enter these talent show competitions and they had me memorize poetry, a lot of poetry, particularly from the poet Robert Louis Stevenson. And they would interview, they would have me these talent shows and they would, my mom and he would make me choreograph, you know, movement to these poems that I had memorized. and I would win the, you know, I won first prize from, I don't know, K through fourth. And then finally I became to be such a little rascal that, in fact, I got suspended in fourth grade for fighting. You know, I just, started to turn into a real. a little evil son of a gun, but it stuck with me. And at the age of nine, they demanded that I take piano lessons and I hated it. ended up becoming a music major. I looking back, I'm so glad they made me take piano lessons, but it really set the stage for God working on my memory. Yeah. Um, and so when I fell in love with the scriptures, I became a Christian. was told start in the new Testament. So I started in Matthew and I read a chapter every day until I got married. And then, you know, you get married and it's like all hell breaks. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, I'll be honest. You know, marriage can be tough. Kids can be tough. And so it occupied my time and I didn't study as much, or I didn't read as much like I used to the regular reading. began to study more, however, right now, I will say I was studying all the time, from 1992, really 1989, because I became a believer in sovereign grace, got acquainted with the Puritans. And in 1989, just began to buy thousands of dollars worth of books from great Christian books, Christian book distributors, and just loved the Puritans, especially John Owen. And I just began to devour it. And there was a time in 1989 where I was living on the bank, not on the bank, but right near the bank of the American River. was renting out a bedroom while I directing music for a mega church in Sacramento. And I, I just started memorizing scripture and it, and it, was very, very easy for me. And and I don't, I mean, by the grace of God, but I believe it was related to the music and the poetry and memorizing. I did a lot of memory. You know, I, I spent a lot of time memorizing Johann Sebastian Bach. In fact, a lot of my recital, my senior recital was Johann Sebastian Bach. And I really believe God used that to help develop my memorization. And so dad showed up to a couple of church services where I was, you we started this immature church, um, back in 92, we had it for about five years and, he was actually quite amazed at my recall. And he also liked my writing when he read that big old long thing, that refutation of John Nelson Darby. And so I think I appealed to him on an academic level. I don't think I appealed to him on anything more than that at the time, sadly. Yeah. But, you know, God can use anything. know, God has used academics, God uses whatever, but ultimately I believe God uses love, the love of Christ to draw people to himself. And so I don't know what was going on with dad, you know, when he passed away, but I like to have a positive, you know, spin on that. And I'd like to think that he was on the edge. Yeah. So Ward, you've spoken and I mean, you have some controversial views within preterism. Yeah. And I get a lot of non-Christians looking at this show and a lot of them have at least heard of preterism now because I sort of bang on about it quite a bit. But one of those, you know, probably relates to your views. I've heard you speak about it around this idea of, I mean, the traditional Christian idea of heaven and where we go. you know, you just mentioned your dad passed in the early 2000s and he was a believer. So he, he went somewhere. Now are we in heaven now? Where's he, where do you go when you die? Where does everyone else go when they die? Yeah. goodness. You know, that's, actually, I don't, I, in all the interviews I've ever been in, and you know, those little round table sessions at the seminars and things, I've never been asked that. So praise the Lord. That's a wonderful, wonderful question. First, let me preface what I'm about to say with this. There are a lot of, there's a lot of preterists today who love to. say, it's here and now we have it right now. And that's what matters. know, whatever happens after we die, no big deal, but it's here and now I'm not one of those. trust me now, do I believe heaven is here? And I, yeah, you remember the song heaven came down and glory filled my soul. I don't know if you remember it. You're a lot younger than I am, but that was real big in the seventies, right? And we'd sing it and you know how it is. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in the singing of hymns and contemporaries. I'll open my eyes, Lord, I want to see Jesus, even though he's not going to appear for another five years. I mean, it's crazy. The things that we sing and yet don't believe, joy to the world. A lot of, lot of people's theology goes out the door when it at funerals at, when they say a prayer, when they want something. Yeah. That I completely agree with you. Ever. I made the comment to someone the other day. Everyone's a full preterist at, at funerals. can't, I can't remember one I've ever been to where they sell. off they go to Hades now and we wait for the future resurrection where they'll go to heaven. Yeah, everyone goes straight to heaven. yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. Have you heard? Well, of course you have. You've heard of Hillsong. They're in your neck of the woods, right? Yeah, yeah. So you're familiar with a Brooke, Brooke lighter wood or something like that. Anyway, she sang the song, what a beautiful name it is the most, widely watched worship song ever. What a beautiful name. And I think it has like a half a billion views or something like that. It's a big time mainstream. Well, she also sang a song, beautiful, it's probably one of my favorite worship songs and it's called King of Kings and it tells the entire story of the gospel. And, theologically it is spot on. It is deep. It is as deep as any of the old hymns, great hymns of the faith. And in the last verse it says, he has resurrected me. Yeah. That's what it says. He has resurrected me and I want to go chick. Do you know what you are singing? Do you even know? And it's so powerful. I love the song. And, anyway, so let's get back to your question. So I, I have an article at new creation ministries.tv and it's called, the afterlife from a preterist perspective. Okay. Now it makes absolutely no sense. to believe that we have eternal life and you know, these almost, I owe Israelite only kind of folks, that we'd say, we have everlasting life. that's just age lasting, age during, right? They bring that up. And then I want to ask them, okay, so does Jesus have immortality? Right? In the New Testament, it says, now under the King, eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, the honor and glory. So he's eternal, he's invisible and he's immortal. Well, the Bible says we are in Christ. It doesn't mean we are Christ. We are in Christ and we are in him. I'm, I believe me, I believe in the corporate body view. I believe it, you know, very similarly to Max King in that area. A lot of other areas, not so, but some of these corporate body people to just, neglect the individuality. Well, the corporate is nothing without the individual. Yeah. And so I believe in both. believe that we have the full rich body of Christ that we are as the church, the body of Christ. Mm-hmm. we are also individuals. And would I call them bodies? Yeah, I would, spiritual bodies, for sure that we have them. I mean, we're risen with Christ, we're risen together with him. And the Bible says he has been raised up and seated in the heavenly places at the right hand of God the Father. One chapter later he says he has raised us up together with him and seated us in heavenly places, which means we are at the right hand of God the Father with Christ. Doesn't mean we're deity, it means that we are the sons of God, that we are immortal too. mortality in corruption that we are holy and blameless. are as holy as the Son of God in spite of our wicked selves. He does not see our sin. We are sinning, if we were looking at us through the eyes of Moses, we are indeed sinning. But in God's eyes, because it's a new covenant, he says, their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more. I will cast their sins in the depths of the sea. As far as the East is from the West, Psalm 103, that is new covenant, that's prophetic. I absolutely believe that's fulfilled. And so whenever you read all these things about streets of gold, living waters, safely, forgiveness, know, no more warfare. Your warfare is accomplished. Your iniquity is pardoned. God with us, with us is God. Emmanuel, I will dwell among them. I'll walk among them. Be their God. They should be my people. All that is now and forever. Yeah. that it's eternal, that what we need to start doing is looking at these golden streets. And we need to look at these living waters. And we need to look at this beautiful relationship that we have with God. Safety from the enemies. No more accusations that for the believer, the devil is cast into the lake of fire. Yep. Yep. being. I know I'm getting theological here and it's not my intention to get into debate issues. I'm trying to encourage people to say, look, screw those IO guys. I'm mad at them. I am. I'm trying to be as loving as I can, but they are divisive. They're deceptive. They're creeping into these predators groups under false names and girls with big boobs and trying to entice guys. It's terrible what they're doing. trying to tell us that it all ceased in 8070. If you look at them all, they're all deists, they're all agnostics, they're all atheists. And what I'm saying is no, we have the fullness. You are complete in Him who's the head of all principality and power. There's nothing lacking. We are perfect, the Bible says, for by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. And I just want people to know whatever it is you were expecting as a futurist, you have it now. And after you die, you will have it. Now, everybody and their mother does not know what the experience is without our physical bodies. The futurist, they will say, when we die, we go to heaven. And then I like to say, well, tell me, what's that going to be like when you don't have your body? They can't explain it. Mm. Right? Well, I don't know. It's just going to be peaceful and blissful, but I got to wait for when my body is united with my soul. And I'm sitting there saying, wait a minute to the preterist. And there's so many preterists out there saying, I have to die to get my body. And I'm like, wait a minute. The body is a fundamental part of the fullness of redemption and risen life. That's fundamental. Jesus said, I came to do the will of the Father that everyone who believes in me, I would raise him up at the last day. That's part of the will of the Father. And the last day has come. And so I believe that everyone who believes in him enters into the fullness of resurrection life, the gathering of all the saints that took place in the first century. By faith in Jesus Christ, we enter into the gates of the city, which is the new Jerusalem, which is where the temple is, the church. And we're in the holiest of all. I like to ask Preterus this question. So you say when you, there are a lot of these people, I'm not going to mention any names. I want to. I'm very tempted to mention names right now, but I'm not going to do it. Other Ned Stevens, you know, but here. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, well, I can't go to heaven unless I die. Wait a minute. You're saying that physical death is necessary. to obtain the greatest goal and expectation of all the prophets, which is God with us, Emmanuel, the mercy seat. And I ask them, are you in the holy place where the mercy seat is, the holiest of all, the presence of God face to face with Jesus? And they say yes. And I say, what more do you want? Are you gonna get something more when you die? And they struggle with that. Yeah. And all I want to say is, look, when Paul said for me to die is gain, think, honestly, I think what Paul was saying is not that I'm gaining something redemptively, but rather what Paul was saying is I'm being persecuted. I've been stoned. I've been shipwrecked. I've been beaten, you know, with 39 lashes a few times. I am dying while y'all are living and ruling with Christ, you know? So he was joyful in spite of it. I've learned to be content in whatever state I am. I just think that Paul's scenario when he said that is not to be the Christian experience post-80s, 70. In the Christian experience post-80s, 70, we're like, no. The parousia, the presence of Jesus, Emmanuel with us is God. That was the greatest expectation. of the prophets, the fullness of or the, the, the, the anti type of Leviticus 16, 17, the priest comes out. They were waiting for him to come out, but they couldn't go in. Well, our priest has come out without sin under salvation, brought us back in to his presence, the holy place face to face. It don't get any better than that brother. And so I just want. Christians to realize that it's beautiful, it's glorious, and I wish it didn't have to turn into these huge theological debates. And people get mad at me because they think, you're Gnostic. You know, you're Gnostic. David Curtis, he in 1997, he had me teach at his church. I'm grateful. But he called me Gnostic after that. I'm like, dude, I'm just trying to tell you what we have in Christ Jesus. All the promises of God in him are yes and in him. Amen to the glory of God by us. I'm gonna stop there because I've been rambling, but it means a lot to me. Yes, I know, it kinda gets under people's skin. I don't mean to, I don't mean to. And sometimes I get a little edgy and I have to come back, sometimes I apologize, sometimes I don't. Probably I should for those times that I haven't. I think we can see your passion and that's a good thing. I'd rather passion than no passion. Well, yeah, of course. Well, I mean, this is a beautiful thing. And that's the other thing. I think that preterism has turned incredibly mechanical. It has turned into intellectual idolatry for many people. And I think that's exactly where Israelite only has come from. Is this desire to I want to know if you know, I want to turn. Yeah, everything. And and I want to come up with something new. You know, they're like the Stoics and the Epicureans. I'm sitting there going. Searching the new thing. Yeah, yeah, I'm just like, man, this is about Jesus. This is Westminster Confession of Faith. Again, the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him. Let's enjoy Christ together. Let's enjoy him. I just want Christians to know what they have. That's all, Luke. I want Christians to know what they have so that they're just living a life of gratitude with all the junk and all this. good that we experience every day, know, our gossip, our addictions, our pornography, our greed, our jealousy, our pride, man, the pride of ministers, the pride of worship leaders and God sitting there, you know what? I'm going to accept your praise. And because of my blood, I'm going to leave all that crap that you stepped on stage with. I'm going to leave it out and still accept your praises. You know what I mean? I mean, that's beautiful stuff. absolutely. mean, I think the, the Gnostic criticism, which I've heard, and so many people throw it around and it's such a strange criticism because the Gnostic idea is that, you know, the, the earth is cursed. The physical is all bad and the spiritual where we, the spiritual realm that we can't see is all good. And then, and you get that criticism and you're like, hang on, I'm saying that the earth isn't cursed and that life is good and there's beauty here and it's with us. So it's sort of the opposite of Gnostic that people like to use. you know what's so funny? I always, you know, while I just quote the Westminster Catechism, one of the things that I can't stand about the Westminster Confession of Faith is that it has a very Gnostic proportion in it, where it says in the resurrection, it is raised as the what? Self, same body. Why does the, if the body, I mean the big, the. The big thrust of Gnosticism is that the flesh is evil. And that's why Jesus could not be God. And I'm sitting there going, self-same body, are you saying that the flesh needs resurrection? Well, if you say it needs resurrection, what you're saying is it's cursed and it's evil and it needs that. The Westminster is Gnostic. At least, I'm not gonna say the whole thing is, but that portion of it... yeah, absolutely. yeah. So it's like, who's, will the real, that's I should do. You know, I have one called, will the real Jew please stand up? That's a way back in 2009. And then I just made one called, will the real darkness please stand up? I should make one with a real Gnostic police. But that would just be too contentious. But I think it's right. think that, for me, the great, tragedy is that Christianity has become this, I'll call it a religion. Cause honestly, most of it, most of what people look at and most, you look inside of the church is just another religion like all of the others where, where the great tell us an end goal of it is to die. Right, right. Yeah. mean, what I only became Christian three years ago, I lived as an atheist my whole life. then, and my background's very sort of, yeah, well, you know, academic, but also driven, like I, you know, studied at top universities, started businesses and did everything in me should make me intellectually focused in my faith. But once I've sort of seen fulfillment, I get so frustrated. I'm like, guys, like who cares about every single detail? The great takeaway from this is how we can actually go and start living and, present the church, which is in just a diabolical state in so many places in a, in a light that's so much more presentable to, you know, people outside of the gates that, you know, I think look inside and you're like, well, you know, I've got these people talking about this wicked flesh that they're in and they need to get out of this wicked flesh and believe in this guy so that when they die they go to the good place rather than the bad. I think people will reject that and I agree with them, I don't blame them for doing it. Well, yeah, and you bring up a good point and I don't want to get too political here and I, you know, I'm not a supporter of any of the administrations that America is producing, but I will say this, that neo-evangelicalism has had a catastrophic effect on evangelism because You know, you angle on means good news. Good news is not, you know, it's so difficult because in this, had a recent debate with, I don't know if you probably heard of Sam Frost. Okay. I had a recent debate with him and he said, I support the LGBTQ lifestyle, which I don't. But I also don't support gossip. I also don't support debauchery. I also don't support stealing. There are lots of things. I don't support anything that hurts other people or that disobeys God. However, the LGBTQ community, they're people who need to see our love. They need to see our grace, just like an atheist needs to see our grace and kindness and compassion and a willingness to dialogue in a way that is caring. that is tender hearted. know, the Bible says, they will know they, right on the outside, it says, they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another. So we have these people on the outside looking at Christians, biting and devouring one another Galatians, right? James. And they're like, well, do I, do I want to, do I want to go be with them? And I'm sitting there going, you know what? you're gay. Okay. Yeah. We've got some people struggling with all kinds of things in our congregation. Come on, come on in and meet Jesus. Meet the soul savior. Meet the one whose compassion's never fail and his mercies are new every morning. Come and meet him. And hopefully we are loving one another so that you can see that so that you're not, you can see that we're not kicking each other when we're down. I mean, I'm gonna give you a good, I'm gonna give you an example right now. I don't know how familiar are with the reformed community, but the reformed community is highly judgmental. the post-millennial reformed, they're all believers in what we call John MacArthur, Lordship salvation, right? The gospel according to Jesus. And as wonderful as R.C. Sproul and all those guys might be with sovereign grace or whatever, and even the last days, even the last days, partial preterism, the doctrine of progressive sanctification is a doctrine psychologically that must produce superiority. Because if you believe in the doctrine of progressive sanctification, what you're saying is we're all growing more and more into the impeccability of Christ, the image that they'll say we're growing, 2 Corinthians 3.18, which you and I know is covenantal. It's changing from glory to glory, not glory to glory to glory to glory to glory, as some assume, but from glory to glory, from old covenant to new covenant. It's not moral sanctification. It's covenantal sanctification. And if these doggone preterists would get on board, we wouldn't have such a problem. you see these post-millennialists believe, and well, that's evangelical Christianity and Catholic Christianity and Orthodox Christianity. They believe in progressive sanctification. Psychologically, it is inevitable that if you believe in that, you will look at someone who is sinning in an area that you are not sinning in and you will point the finger. You know, Do you see what I'm saying? 100%. And I think you said, mean, you know, jump onto, you jump onto a platform like X, you know, which is sort of like a global town hall. So you can see anyone there and you see these reformed guys that Christians know and non-Christians will probably look at and realize the ones that you're talking about, you know, that sit there with a beard, a glasses, a glass of scotch, a cigar, and talk about how moral they are compared to the rest of the world and how they basically know how to run things and set things up in a way that no one else can understand without their level of discernment. And it is, it makes you want to throw up, doesn't it? But the bad thing, the challenge I think in the world at the moment is you've had this huge swing to really progressive ideas and pretty hard course of leftism or wokeism if you want to call it. And what that's done is create a pendulum swift shift back the other way for all particularly a lot of males that are like, I am this world is left me behind. want no part of it. So then they hitch their wagon to these reformed holy are they are guys and then that's become what I think for the outsider, they look at that as being what Christianity is and what Jesus is. I'm like, I said this to friends recently. like, cause I'm, I'm naturally maybe I'm, I'm naturally 10 more conservative, but by the end of all this, I'm going to end up a progressive. I want no part of that. I mean, I, I've really similar views to you, Ward. It's, you know, there's no way the Bible promotes homosexuality, but Why the focus on that more than lying or coveting or stealing or gossiping? I mean, you see it on X all the time. know, some sort of daft Christian girl put up a post, no homosexual enter the kingdom of heaven. All right. right. When was the last lie you told? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reveiler. And then drunkards. I cannot tell you, you know, and I speak out of hypocrisy here, but I cannot tell you how many reformers are drunkards. Like you said, Scotch. And it's not just one cup, you know. These guys are, you know, drinking a half a bottle of, you know, Jameson or whatever. I don't know. Does Australia have a popular whiskey? Yeah, Australia actually does some great whiskeys ourselves, but you know, we do all the imported stuff as well. Okay, okay. Well, you know what I'm talking about. I mean, you when you start describing the reformers, I was like, my gosh, he I wonder if he's been in these circles, because I have I've spent I've spent years in these circles, you know, and it's like this. It's weird. It's like, we're cool. We're intellectual. We understand predestination, you know, and I'm like, Yeah, predestination is good. Whoa. And now you're consigning me to hell because I am telling you that Jesus kept his word. Whoa, that's funky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I bring this up. Are you familiar with David Chilton? Yeah, I haven't really, I know his books, know, it was a Days of Vengeance is one of the most famous sort of preterist books. I've never read it though and he was before my time. Okay, well, he was, you he's one of the most, well, you probably won't find other than maybe Greg Bonson, Cornelius van till, you probably won't find a greater reform reformed mind, but, just brilliant. He was brilliant, you know? And then he had a, I guess it was a heart attack, I can't remember, in 94 and he died in 97, but he came to believe, and how I knew this was he lived about 45 minutes from where I had a church in Sacramento, in Diamond, we were in Sacramento, he was in Diamond Springs, California, and I had the privilege, I mean the privilege. of going up there about four or five times and discussing preterism with him. And he came full swing into preterism. Now he started to kind of wonder if it was kind of a universal thing, you know, because the post-millennialist says, you know, the earth shall be covered with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. That's a big post-millennial, you know, focus. And so he kept that, but he did come to see. fulfillment. And man, he was anathematized. He was anathematized by North Matheson Sandlin. I don't know if you've ever heard of Jim West. He drafted the Hemanian heresy. Right. So if you look up Jim West, Hemanian heresy. it's just anyway. The point is back to this progressive sanctification. We need to understand the psychology of what we believe. I'm not saying go to a pop psychology. I'm saying we need to understand what happens with the mind when we believe certain things. Because if, if we believe, for example, if we believe we're saved by works, those who are not performing adequately according to our view of the works, Hmm. fallen short and they are condemned. Well, along those same lines, if we believe we are progressively being sanctified, that is being molded more and more in thought and action to the impeccability of Christ, if someone is not being conformed in our same areas, right? God's not sitting there saying, I had to die harder for these sins, but not as hard for these ones. You know, God is holier than that. And that's what I want to tell these reformers who believe in progressive sanctification. You know, you're all about, you know, at RC Sproul wrote a book called the holiness of God. Great book. But I'm like, yeah, how holy is God? God is so holy. He's so holy that he won't allow gossip, a gossiper to enter the kingdom of God. In fact, I always direct people to Psalm 15. Psalm 15 slays humanity because it says nothing about homosexuality. It says nothing about adultery. It says nothing about animal sex. It says nothing about necrophilia. It says nothing about pedophilia. Now, all those things are disobedience. The only thing it says is who's going to abide in my holy hill. Mmm. one who does not backbite his neighbor and who does not slander with his tongue. Yeah. That's Jesus. What that chapter is saying is that's only Jesus. It's him and nobody else. And we have to be in him, covered by him, clothed in the garments of righteousness in order to enter into the gates with thanksgiving. So when the Bible says, open to me these gates and I will enter in, that's Jesus. Yeah. That's the first person of Psalms. keep trying to tell people, don't put yourself in the first person of Psalms because you'll be damned. Throw Christ in the first person of Psalms and then just put yourself in there by virtue of his grace, right? And then you're acceptable to God. You know? But this... I, I'm sorry, go on. No, I was going to say the one thing for me that really, comes through in all of your messages and your ministry, which I think, which I really do love is you are like a good old fashioned, just Jesus freak, right? You know, which I don't think a lot of these, you know, bearded reform guys are the, you know, and people look at them, you know, like, they come across as very intellectual, really smart guys. And, you know, um, they can argue against anyone. They're, they're intelligent, but they're not, they're not, they're not like Jesus isn't flowing through them. They're not, they're not, you know, falling on their knees and just, um, enamored by everything they know about Jesus. Jesus for them is a, you know, I think at the, at the extreme end of the spectrum, um, someone that they've been smart enough to come to know, you know, you're, you are this like, um, real true Jesus freak in the way that you, you talk about him. As I said, a lot of my listeners on this show and actually my most recent guests, um, Steven Long, he's, he's homosexual, grew up in the church, homosexual, joined the, um, satanic temple. so I'm really I'm really open and this is, think, the kingdom of God working in me. I'm a real focus of, I think what I want to do is speak to a lot of these people that have been cast out and rejected by the church and also rejected the church as well. And sadly, I think rejected Jesus because of that. Can I get you to, can I get you to give us a, a bit of a spiel on who Jesus is? boy, I'm gonna catch flack, okay? And I've already, I recently, okay, I don't know, have you heard of covenant creation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I'm pretty similar to you. I tend towards the covenant creation view. Okay, well. corporate I'm sort of corporate body covenant creation. And yeah, I know the dispute you're talking about. Yeah. And so, I don't know, it was in about 99 where I started looking at Adam differently and looking at Eve differently. I looked at Romans seven and the marriage and dying and the thorns and the sweat and the subservience to your husband. And, and, and, and Paul bringing that issue up, you know, in a general way and Romans chapter, well, really Romans five through seven, but specifically seven, the first few verses. And, I, I just started seeing something. Like I was seeing something that I knew it wasn't just what met the eye in Genesis. You know, a talking snake, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree of life. Well, you know, hope delayed makes the heart sick, but you know, when, you know, when the desire comes, it is a tree of life. the tree of life, revelation, something was up and, and, and God, no chapter in the Bible was written in a vacuum. especially revelation. And when it speaks about a tree of life and when it speaks about a new heaven, a new earth, we know it's pointing back from the end to the beginning. to the beginning. Yeah. And you know, even as futurists, every single one of us, when we would read Revelation 21, I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven, first earth passed away. First heaven and first earth, every single one of us, every single one of us as a futurist immediately went back to Genesis 1. And now all of a sudden you become a preterist. Uh-oh. Well, wait, we gotta keep our literalism there. You know, because otherwise we won't be able to have an apologetic against the atheists. What? That's enlightenment thinking. That's the enlightenment. God did not design the Bible to be supported with enlightenment thinking. He designed the Bible to be believed presuppositionally by the faith he has given us. The Bible is about Jesus. Yeah. I keep telling, Jesus said that it is about me. From Moses, the Psalms and the prophets, it is about me. And if we look at Genesis one through three as anything other than about Jesus, we're missing it. And if we try to use enlightenment, in, in like their enlightenment, uh, scientific apologetics, right. To defend the faith. We're using human centered means to try and fight human centeredness. And God was never about that. He was never, mean, one of the greatest things that people can learn from is where the deity of Christ is supported and magnified and are apologetic. The biblical evangelical apologetic is supported and magnified and that is this. You've seen and you've believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and believed. Great, get me your Lee Strobel's, get me your Josh McDowell's, get me your Norm Geisler's, get me your, you know, John Frames, all these guys. The reality is if we are believers in Jesus, as Paul said, when it pleased the father to reveal his son in me, man, you might as well have called Paul a hardened atheist. You can't get more hardened than a Jew on a mission to kill Christians. There, there is no hardness that is greater than that. Jesus said, They would not believe if they saw a man rise from the dead. What part do we not understand about that? Right? And here's Paul. And he says, gosh, everything I've ever done is dung. I mean, think about that. It just, it breaks my heart because I was raised, you know, in this dispensational, least drobable, Josh McDowell environment. And then I got exposed to this reformed environment, which is, which was kind of divided into classical apologetics or evidential apologetics versus presuppositional apologetics. And it was like, well, pick and choose. And it's like, I looked in the Bible and I'm like, okay, well, presuppositionalism. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not about evidence, but Hmm. you know, these presuppositionalists keep appealing to Romans chapter one. And then we keep appealing to progressive sanctification. And we keep appealing to our feelings. I've got to get out of this life. These are the IBV at death proponents. It's like I've got to get out of this life because I still sin. I still sin. Man, you want to talk about heaven on earth. It's that God sees you as holy and blameless and in His presence and totally acceptable and as holy as His beloved Son, Jesus Christ. You ask me who Jesus is? He's Immanuel. You know, thus says the Lord, Yahweh, and His Redeemer, Yahweh of hosts. I am the first and the last. Jump to Revelation. I was dead and now I live. Yeah. You ask me who Jesus is. That is the greatest question that we could possibly ask. And he's almighty God. He is Yahweh. And we have so many Unitarian and Aryan Preterists. It's it's unfathomable. And I don't know what to do about it. And I just go, Lord, just. keep me proclaiming the person of Jesus and his kingdom, his good news. And keep me ministering to gays and to liars and to gossips and to addicts. Man, I'm the biggest addict there is. I've struggled with so many addictions, so many, and I by no means have conquered all of them. And I'm fairly authentic in my videos. Because I don't, I can't stand pedestals. I can't stand, you know, I had a, when I was pastor of this church and we're, we're preterist, know, sovereign grace and I had this worship leader, funny guy, really funny guy. And he was describing the modern day worship leaders in these mega churches. And, you know, it's the rock star worship leaders. We know, you know, and I'm not, gosh, I have to be careful here because I don't want to be negative. But it was like. Worship me as I worship the Lord, you know, and he said that and I laughed my head off. But you know what? Over the years, it stuck with me. And it's like, are we doing the same thing in preterism? Yeah. You know, who are the stars of the show? And I'm like, no, there are no stars. Don't charge for the word of God. Charge for the materials, maybe, yeah. Have people donate or whatever. But don't charge for the word of God. Buy the truth and sell it not, Proverbs says. Buy the truth and sell it not. The truth is Jesus. I am the way, the truth, and the life. And we should tell the world about him. And I guarantee you, if those in the non-binary, the community, and believe me, it's a weird community. I know that, it's weird. I'm not saying it's not strange, but man, it's no different than the Greco-Roman community of the first century. It's no different. There's nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes is very clear. And so I do really believe that we have so much to offer with fulfillment. We don't have a doom and gloom mentality. We can protect the environment. We can. We can actually say, wow. This is a beautiful earth. It doesn't mean I have to be woke. It doesn't mean I have to be liberal. It doesn't mean I have to be conservative. But wow, what a beautiful thing. I like trees. I love trees. I love rivers. I love clean rivers. I don't like to trash in an ocean. You know, I'm not going to rack up debt on my credit card expecting the rapture to happen in 10 months. You know, Harold Camping, 1994. People are killing themselves over this death. We have such a beautiful message to offer. And it doesn't diminish the depravity of man. When I can go up to an LGBTQ advocate or a homosexual or a liar or a gossip or an addict, an alcoholic, you know, a heroin addict, a meth addict, an opiate addict, I've well, I've been in a lot of those, believe it or not. I've committed adultery. I cheated on my wife. That's why I lost my marriage. I've been a drug addict. I've been an alcoholic. And I sit there and I think to myself, my gosh, if God... could see me through the blood of Christ as holy as his only son like Jesus said that they may know that you have loved them as you have loved me. Good God, literally. That they may know that you have loved them as you have loved me. That the Father has loved, behold, manner of love. Hmm. has given to us that we should be called what? The sons of God. You know, it's just beautiful. All my memory can be thrown in the trash just as long as I know I'm loved by God. And he says, go tell people about me and that I'm Lord. and that I have a kingdom that's so beautiful and that if they trust in me and abandon their self-righteousness and idolatry, they just abandon it. They will enter into the gates of the city and enjoy my presence. That's he says. In your presence is what? Fullness of joy. Yeah. It's a beautiful message. do I know? It's a, it's the perfect answer. Um, I see it in a similar way. Like I think so many people, and this ties into the way that we like to debate using sort of scientific methods. I think the idea of faith scares the life out of a lot of people, true faith. And I think it's the one thing that we're called to have and For me, the most supernatural thing that I've ever experienced is the fact that God loves me. I mean, that is the supernatural. I don't need flames to come out of the sky to see supernatural things happening. That itself, there is nothing in my background that should make me a believer today and yet here I am. And I think it scares us to be able to have that childlike faith. want to, we want to be able to grasp to something we want to, I did this particularly in my first year of coming to, I want to be able to prove it to everyone. And, that just, it, doesn't work. And it's the, and where, it's the wrong thing. It's the wrong thing to do. And it produces the wrong type of faith that produces the wrong type of works. That's right. I always tell people evidence never saved a soul. You know, and here, here's this book, evidence that demands a verdict, right? Josh Mcdowell. Yeah. Or the case for faith. I'm like, you know what the case for faith is? They will know you're my disciples by your love for one. And that's why, that's why I said from the very beginning, it's like, okay. What is love? Well, Paul, Jesus said, love one another as I have loved you. Right? Paul said, as Christ has forgiven you, so forgive one another. Yeah. And what does Proverbs say? James, love covers a multitude of sins. Yeah. The whole world has a multitude of sins. Love covers a multitude of sins. Christ's love covered a multitude of our sins. Mm. And we're called to love Christ's children as ourselves and cover a multitude of sins. It doesn't matter what they are. And I was going to bring up, I'm going to bring up a guy. I'm going to bring up a name. well, how's our time? I should honor your time, brother. How's our time? with I'm fine with time if you're Yeah. me, let me bring up two examples actually. So the first example is a man. Have you ever heard of a man by the name of Ted Haggard? No, the name sort of sounds familiar. Okay, it might be more commonly known in America, but he was the president of the National Association of Evangelicals. And he was pastor of a church in Colorado Springs, which is kind of known as the... the Mecca of evangelical Christianity. You have focus on the family that was there, James Dobson, you've probably heard of him. You have World Vision is there. And you have New Life Fellowship, which was Ted Haggard's church. And there's 14,000 people. And he was, like I said, he was the president of the NAE National Association of Evangelicals, which their statement of faith is kind of cool, actually, because it's, if you agree to that. It's like, you can be a preterist. So anyway, but he was the president and the national association of evangelicals has 30 million members. He was the president and he was always condemning. And I don't support abortion by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah. And he was condemning homosexuality, condemning abortion, but homosexuality with a vengeance. You know what I mean? Just like any right-wing evangelical would do. And then it was found out that he was having gay sex with a masseuse and doing meth up in Denver. Right? Now we, now your typical Christian would say, my gosh. You know, the guy must have been a reprobate, you know. Now, I'm not even going to comment on his relationship with God. The point is, Paul says, therefore, you are inexcusable, a man, whoever you are that judges another, for wherein you judge another, you who judge do the same things. Romans two, verse one, right? Jesus said the same thing. Judge not lest you be judged. And he also said this, a lot of people misunderstand this. He says, before you judge someone or take the speck out of someone's eye, you got to take the log out of your own eye. Well, what he was saying, he wasn't saying, well, you're gambling, so before you... can judge a liar, you gotta stop gambling. No, the log? Well, let me ask you a question. I just got a teaser here. Okay, come on Luke. You've been a Christian for three years and man, by the way, I applaud you that you've come to know the kingdom by the grace of God, obviously, but what do you, Luke, think the log is? What does it represent? What does the log represent? The beam in some translations. the log in your own eye that you need to take out. Yeah, what do you think it represents? The log. I I don't know if this is where you're going with that. It's not something I've deeply studied, but it would tie in with my overall view on what death is, what being a part, but for me, it's the separation from, it's the state of our being that comes from the separation from God, whether that's a... Israelite living in the first century under the law, whether it's a Melbourneian guy living in 2020 that I cannot. The log in my eye is just my natural tendency to do the things that I do. Well, can I make a suggestion? Yeah. I believe that the log is self-righteousness. Mm. Before you try to remove the spec, sins, gambling, homosexuality, know, greed, jealousy, coveting. Before you try to remove the spec that's in everybody's eye, everybody has a spec. Take the self-righteousness out of your own eye. Why? Because when you do that, You can't, you see what I mean? You're not going to focus in on the spec. And so the log, you see that? Can you kind of see that? Absolutely. I think that, I mean, essentially my answer, I mean, I'm different to a lot of Christians in that I, you know, I still live, I've still lived the majority of my adult life as a non-believer. So I can clearly understand the difference between the two ways of being, whereas, whereas a lot of Christians have only ever known one way. But the life of a, the life of a non-believer is self-righteousness. That's right. you're your own God, you're your own God, you're your own judge. do, know, I mean, Paul sort of says that in Romans, you know, it's like I did what I thought was right. I set the boundaries on things. And people have different, yeah, people have different views around, you know, different levels of self-righteousness. you can be a non-believer and have a really low level of self-righteousness. You don't think you do any good. And then you can have a non-believer that thinks that everything they do is good. And sadly, you can have a lot of believers that think the same as well. But it's, me, faith, and it ties in with that, is it's the ultimate humbler of man. It's humility. The only way I step forward in my faith, the only way that I grow in my faith is humility. that means, mean, just, time and time again, I realize I've been wrong. And the more you do that, the more I grow. Looks like we had a disconnect there. Yeah, we had a disconnect. I just finished saying the more I do that, the more I grow. And that was, and then I didn't hear you say anything back, but that was sort of the end of my point. So if you just want to respond to the more I do that, the more I, the more I humbled myself, the more I grow, you can respond to that. And then I'll edit that bit in. no, I will. to your point on the left, you know, because we're in a culture that deals with left and right on the left. Or if you want to call them the woke or the liberals, you have you do have self-righteousness, but it's it's from a secular perspective. And it's deeply self-righteous. It is. You know, they'd like to say, it's not self. No, we're not, we don't judge. And I'm like, well, the way you act is terribly judgmental. But I get it because it is a reaction. It's kind of like, it's kind of like Palestinians reacting to Israel, right? What the, you know, Hamas, what Hamas has done is, is wrong, but the reacting to this, grotesque. Well, let's not go there. I mean, cause, cause that's a whole different, we, we, yeah, maybe we can, maybe we can have a, I would love to Michael Miano and I, God bless his soul. love that man to death. Yeah. Michael Miano is wonderful. He is a wonderful guy. We have different views on buffets though, but no, my Michael Miano is wonderful. I love it. I've spoken at a couple of conferences and his conferences and he's spoken at a couple of mine. He is just a marvelous man and I am. Mike was the last guest on my show too. He came on with Steven, the homosexual, former Satanist. All right. All right. Yeah, there you go. Well, but where are we going with this? If we were talking about, yeah. Yeah. Palestine. my gosh. We, we should set that up. Luke, we should do another interview. maybe I'll have you on mine and we can discuss Palestine. and yeah, because there's a lot of, well, that's, that's a whole issue in and of itself that has created. conflict among the liberals and among the conservatives. But when we look at the liberals, the far left and the far right, the root, the root of both sides is self-righteousness. It's self-righteousness. You know, and that's why I can't latch onto any of these administrations is because they're, they're, they're rooted in self righteousness and war and weird response and, and, and, and, sort of a military, a militaristic, if that's even a word approach to society. Exactly. The other side's right and we are, the other side is wrong and we are right. So we're going to enforce our way. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've seen it. I've seen it over the last period of time. I've seen it really emerge with the right and the right wing movement needed to happen as a natural response to some absolute sort of insanity on the left wing. But now the right, they're doing exactly the same thing. That's right, same thing. different moral code, which they would argue is better and I don't even know if I agree with them on that anymore. Yeah, well, you know, it's crazy. I'm sitting there then, okay, Trudeau, he's resigned, right? And every, you know, the, these Canadians are rejoicing and whatever and Americans are rejoicing. I'm thinking to myself, okay, you're rejoicing. What are you rejoicing about? What are you rejoicing at? What's the ultimate goal? What is the end? What's, you know, your little thing, what's the point anyway? If you ask any right wing evangelical. or left wing secularist, if you ask that question, what's the point anyway? It's going to be every answer except the glory of Jesus Christ. That's what it's going to be. Right wing neo evangelicalism is not Christ following. It's not following Christ. Yeah. I mean, obviously left wing, it's not either, it's all those, but those left wings, those left wingers. They're looking at the right and go, wow, if that's Jesus, I want nothing to do with it. Totally, totally. reaction to people with logs in their eyes casting stones at everyone else. On boat, yeah. and I don't mean to, you know, kind of microcosmize this into a preterism, but that's kind of the way I feel like with covenant creation. You know, I believe in covenant creation, but there are these people in covenant creation that are, know, they're humanists, they're human centered, they're Arians, they're Unitarians. Well, I'm not going to latch. I'm not going to rub elbows with you just because you're covenant creation. Yeah. Okay. Well, it's okay if he, you know, doesn't believe that Jesus is God, but, you know, at least he's preterist. I'm going to unite with him, you know, but I, same story, same story. And so that's why. That's why I don't have a lot of views on my channel. I mean, I got a lot of subscribers. Not a lot. I mean, I don't know. It's like 3000 or something, but I, know, it's 3000 by people who are going, Oh, I'll subscribe just because the guy's weird. I want to split. What else is weird to put now? You know, but I, but, but for me, I always say this. Here's what I used to say to all the people who were quote under my ministry or who are listening to my, my videos or reading my articles that in, and maybe, you know, this could be a segue into who knows finishing this interview, which has been so fun. Yeah. My, and this is the God honest truth. Okay. Luke. my greatest desire and spent like every time I got up behind a pulpit, we know with a message I'd spent hours on preparing every time I got up behind a pulpit, probably 50 to 75 % of it was pride. Right? I don't know. Maybe more. I'm not, I'm going to err on the side of more because that's probably the reality. Yeah. But then, but in my studies, I was so excited, know, so excited. I hope they see this, but then you get up there and it's like, Oh gosh. And I always knew, I always knew, okay. That message was primarily pride because I worried more about it rather than prayed more about it. Right. When I pray. That's me saying, I can't do this. Yeah. when I don't pray. That's me saying, I can convince these people. Right. And that's why I'm so thankful that God is sovereign because he honors retroactive prayer. Right. It's like, I didn't pray for that video. I didn't pray for that message. God. Please. remove me or as Stephen and Olford once said a great English preacher, you know, more of a, I'm going to use a theological word, Arminian preacher, but he said eclipse thy servant. Yeah. You know, shoot. My whole goal, in spite of my pride, my whole goal for every single one of my articles, my videos, my sermons, is that people would just be more thankful as a result of what I taught. That's all. Not that they would be more knowledgeable. Not that they would be better persons, you know, here's how to be a better person. We just need to be better people. It's that they would leave the message, leave the article, leave the video, leave the seminar, leave the debate, leave the discussion. I love this too. It's just a informal, beautiful discussion, but they would come away and say, wow, Jesus, I love you. I adore you. I'm so thankful for you, for your kingdom, for your grace, you know? And that's honestly what I want. At the end of the day, that's what I want. But I try to get in the way. You know what I mean? I do. I don't want to, but I do. I just get in the way a lot of times. And I just hope to God, you know, people would... that I would be eclipsed. Eclipse thy servant is what he said. Eclipse thy servant and you know, may the glory of Christ shine brightly and everything else be diminished. fantastic award. You've definitely done that here and if we can all learn from the takeaway, what's the point anyway to glorify God and thank you for doing that today. Luke, man, I had no idea that it would be so enjoyable and cool. And thanks for not judging me. I shared a lot tonight. I, you know about. you being so open. I really do. And I'm sure the listeners will as well. And as we said, know, humility goes a long way. Well, yeah, it does. What does he say? Isaiah 57, he says, thus saith, oh, King James, get rid of that. Thus says the Lord, the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity. I dwell with the one who is of a broken and contrite spirit. And then he says, we may come boldly before the throne of grace. You know, beautiful stuff. Thank you for having me, Luke. Thanks, Ward. It's been an absolute pleasure. Alright, God bless you brother. God bless you.