What's The Point Anyway?

What's The Point Anyway - From Fearing the End to Embracing the Now with Steve Magua

• Luke McInnes

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I sat down with the very charismatic Steve Magua from St Louis Missouri to get his perspectives on what the point is anyway. Steve grew up in the faraway land of Kenya, before migrating to America as an adult and becoming Christian at the age of 33. For many years, until as recently as 2019, he was preparing his family and followers for the 'end of the world' and preached about the coming tribulation which was going to be hell on earth for all who didn't come to faith in Jesus. 
Those who know Steve now are aware that his current views on the world are a complete reversal on what they once were. The result has been a feeling of peace and joy that he didn't have before when all he expected was for the world to be burned up.
We discussed many of Steve's controversial views including the questions of whether 'science' conflicts with the Bible, and whether Adam was indeed the first human and if not, how sin could be in the world.
This was a fun conversation where we got to see a different side of Steve - a man who I think we can all learn something from whether we agree with him or not.

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All right, we're on. Welcome back to What's the Point Anyway. My guest today from St. Louis, Missouri is Steve Maguire. He's a pastor and a prolific content creator and he's got some really awesome stuff. I've loved following him. He reached out to me and was keen to come on the show. He's a good friend of Steve Martin and, sorry, Tim Martin and some other guests that I've had, so. I'm really interested in hearing his story and his perspective. So Steve, what's the point anyway? Well, first of all, thank you very much, Luke, for inviting me. And I believe that the point of all of it is the glory of God. I believe that God created a universe in which he wants to glorify himself to manifest and to show his glory. And so the goal of everything is the the display of the glory of God, top of which, of course, is love. but also all the other aspects of the glory of God, which means righteousness, holiness, justice, mercy. So I believe that the world and everything in it and our lives are about the glory of God. Nice one. So I've, I mean, I've only come across you maybe over the last year and a half, Steve, and you, you know, put out a lot of content and you hold similar position to Tim Martin around covenant creation. And a lot of your critics will give you a, maybe a straw man argument saying that, you know, you don't believe God created all things. I think you've pretty clearly answered that, that then with, I don't know where they get that idea because definitely, I mean, if you if you listen to any, mean, within five minutes or any minutes that you listen to what we teach, we definitely believe that everything was created by the one true God of the Bible. Everything visible, everything invisible. He is the creator. He is the supreme God. He is sovereign. So it's all about God. in the end. Yeah. So what's been really interesting with you, Steve, is I listened to you a lot of your content. It like, you know, you're so knowledgeable and so well read and well studied on some of these things that I just assumed you must've held these positions you had for decades. And then I learned recently that it was only, it was only recently that you've sort of had this change. And then I was watching some of the videos on your YouTube channel from you know, a decade or so ago and you were preaching all about the end times and who the antichrist was. So how has that, when you give that, that initial answer about what the point is and it is to the glory of God and it's holiness, it's righteousness. How is your understanding of what that meant changed over time, particularly with your new understanding and new way of seeing different doctrines? To be honest with you, I don't think that that particular point has changed. As far as I can remember, when I first came to believe, which was back in 2007, this was the thing that was impressed upon my heart the most is that God desires to reveal himself. God desires for people to know him as he is, which means that everything has to do with the glory of God. And so that idea of the love of God, the righteousness of God, the holiness of God, that has always been very, very central to me. So therefore, even coming into a very, very different point of view, which I would say a radical change in my view of eschatology, in my view of what God did in the past, it was in the search of that question, because I remember back in 2017, 2018, We were doing these Bible studies and we would discover things that are different from what we had learned. And I remember praying for a particular period of time and saying, God, if there is anything that is wrong in the way that I see you or that I see your plan or that I read the Bible, I am willing that you would destroy it all and bring it back to zero. And you would bring it back because I don't want to continue to do something for 30, 40 years and then come to find out. It was just utterly not what you intended because for me it's about you. It's about your glory. And so when I discovered that Jesus already returned in 70 AD in 2019, which was 10 years into my ministry, 10 years into my, well, maybe about 12 years into my Christianity, it blew my mind. It shocked me. It even frustrated me. But at the end of the day, in my mind, was like, okay, if this is what it's about, if this is how you reveal your glory, fine, I'm willing to go through it. I'm willing to go back to zero. I praise you for your willingness to change positions. think it's a trait that I've designed to have and it's something that I really respect in people, when you can hold a view so strong and then be willing to shift from that, takes a huge amount of humility. And I think a lot of people don't have it. I'd be interested, Steve. you preach and you speak with a high degree of conviction in your views, which is great, but you've shown you're willing to change your views. Right now at this point in time, what are some things, and yeah, I know I've seen you recently type that, you know, if I'm wrong on this, I'm willing to, I'll admit that I'm wrong on it. What are some of the things, I mean, when we speak about the Bible, what are views that you have that are as close to set as possible and what are some things that you could still see yourself changing on? All right, now there are some things that I believe that will not change. First of all, I believe that God is going to remain being God, the God of the Bible. Yahweh to me, I just don't see how that can change. And I do investigate it. In other words, I do listen to other ideas, you know, from atheists or agnostics. I just have not had any... evidence that has been provided for me to think now there might come a time when I might say there is no God or there is or maybe I don't know who God is that I don't think is going to change also the deity of Jesus Christ to me as far as I've studied as far as far as I've listened to other people I'm fully and totally convinced that Jesus Christ is God I believe that the nature of God revealed in the Bible is that he is a triune God he is There is the Father, there is the Son, and there is the Holy Spirit. And I know that this is a deep mystery, but for me, that is very well said. Also, the fact that the first coming and the second coming of Christ are in our past. Now, that to me has become as clear as water. That is a foregone conclusion. I think the last one that I will say is that the love of God. I believe that God is a God of love and he desires to show his love to all humanity. And I believe that is why we are here. And I believe that's what is going to continue to be the goal and the thrust of the ministry of God amongst humanity. Yeah, interesting. Could you, if someone said to you in, I think I watched a video 2012 and you were talking about, I mean, you were disproving it, but you were saying, yeah, the people are saying that Barack Obama could be the Antichrist and you were saying how, these are the criteria that need to be for the Antichrist and therefore it can't be Barack Obama. And good one, were... remember that. Wow. And you were correct on it. So I think we're gonna give you credit for that one. What would have you said if someone said to you like 10 years ago, hey Steve, know, in 2025, you're gonna say that the first and second comings were passed and that all prophecies being fulfilled. how, cause I've got people that listen to this show that are Christian and plenty that are non-Christian as well, but I'm trying to show the weight of how radical a change of worldview that would have been for you hearing that back then. Oh, I can assure you if someone suggested that, we will probably get into fisticuffs because that to me was so, it was so central to my doctrine that Jesus Christ is God. He came into this world. He died on the cross. rose up on the third day and he's coming again soon within my lifetime. I was convinced in 2012 that Jesus Christ was coming. within my lifetime. In fact, I was convinced 2050 would not come before Jesus returned. In fact, at that point, think 2018 was really the cutoff point for me because it was all about because I was a Zionist and I was deep into Zionism. so Israel was the time clock of God. If you listen to any of those. you were pro Zionist. Yeah. Israel is going to be 70 in 2018 and that's when Jesus has to have come back. Bye. So no question about it. So that would have been too much for me to even conceptualize. I don't think I would have accepted it in any way. Can you give, had a guest on recently, was saying, can get, I mean, can get easily, every preterist I'm happy to reach out or is happy to come on the show and chat with me. I've had atheists, I've had new ages, I've had Satanists, I've had... what else have I had, Stoics, but I cannot get a futurist Christian to come on and have a chat with me. So in, in lieu of that, can you ex, can you give a bit of an overview of Steve Maguire in the, in the mid 2010s explaining the worldview for that futurist? So you, you, you were thinking that the world's going to end in 2018. I really didn't think that the world was going to end immediately because I was at that point, I was a pre millennial dispensation is right. Pre trip. So what I believed was going to happen was that Jesus was going to bolt out of heaven in an actual physical white horse and that we were going to see him in the physical clouds. We were all going to hear the trumpet and. I had all figured out, I did all figured out from what I was listening to and what I believed. Everybody was going to see him because now we had all the technology, everybody has a phone, everybody has the ability to see a video of Jesus as it comes, no matter which part of the globe you are in. And so once he came, first thing would happen is that he would snatch the church, which of course I was part of, out of the wild for seven years. And then for seven years, it will be hell on earth upon which then the second coming would take place. We would come back and leave with Jesus reigning from Jerusalem for a thousand chronological years. And then after the thousand years, the world would actually literally end. Jesus would somehow take us off of the world, destroy it, remake it, a new universe, a new galaxy. then we'd come back here into an Earth that did not have any waters or oceans, since we would not need water or oceans or any of that stuff. So even then I was saying, I would tell people, the world is not actually literally going to end in seven years or in 10 years, but everything we know is going to change. But the world, as we know it, the planet is going to disappear after a thousand years after the second. Yeah. And so once you're taken in that rapture, what's happening in the seven years after that? On earth or for us? Okay, so first of all, on earth, those who would remain, it would be the worst time ever because the Antichrist would then be revealed after that. And at first he would come in with a peace plan. But within three and a half years, all hell would break loose. People would suffer grievously on earth for not believing in Jesus Christ and for not believing in the pre-trib, you know, set up and then the judgment would begin at the end of the seven years and Jesus Christ would come and judge every man on earth so that everyone that had not believed would be judged and cast into the lake of fire and those Christians who had been left behind because I did believe in the left behind you know system those who had been left behind they would be saved but they would be saved like you know it says in First Corinthians chapter three as being snatched out of the fire. Then now after the seven years at the second coming, now we would we would get into into a situation where there would be peace on earth. Jesus Christ reigning on the earth. There was I was not quite sure what would happen there because it seems to it seemed to me that there would be people left alive that Jesus would would rule over. because the final judgment would happen after the thousand years. But somewhere around 2014, 2015, after having some conversations with my mother and a friend of mine called Lilian, I began to reconsider whether the pre-tribulation idea was accurate. And after studying it again, I became convinced that I was wrong in that. So I changed my position from being pre-tribulation to being post tribulation. So from about 2014, maybe 2015, I began to believe that no, we are going to go through the tribulation. There is no seven year period where we are taken out of the world, but rather we would go through the whole horror system. But Jesus Christ would appear at the last moment, rescue us. We would be snatched up for a moment. And then he would do the judgment. Then we would come back and then. now reign with him for a thousand years. So the thousand years was always after the second coming. yeah, yeah. And I mean, as you say, that's a fairly significant, you know, from pre-trib to post-trib, as you say, is really everyone's timing around where they get snatched away during that seven years of final sort of hell on earth. Now, the scary thing is this is the position of, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 % of Christians around the world. Even though you've just described and I think people listening saying they know you don't hold this now, but they're like, hang on, well, this is would be the view of a mad, you know, a completely mad person. What do you, what do you think it does for worldview and output and how people live when they think that that's just on the horizon? Well, I can tell you what it did to me. First of all, my view of life was very, very pessimistic, very dark. First of all, I kept asking myself, what is the point of going to school? What is the point of investing? What is the point of paying my bills? It's all going to burn anyway. It's all going to burn soon, right? And so really, I stopped. I have eight children, but I honestly, would tell them all the time, guys, it's not even going to get to your lifetime. You guys are not going to possibly grow to be adults. So I was not investing for their future. I was not even teaching them to prepare for the future. I was telling them, we all need to prepare for the tribulation. We all need to prepare for the beheadings. And especially if you remember the time of ISIS, when ISIS was beheading people, I was like, this is it. This is it, guys. You see, my children, because we've talked about this, they lived in fear. I lived in fear myself, even though I on the face, would seem as if I was very courageous. I can't wait to die for Christ. But I was I was terrified every night, every day, because it could be today that it all begins. We are going to suffer grievously. so my worldview became very closed. And at the same time, I also began to categorize people and characterize people. If they didn't believe what we believed, then how stupid they were, how foolish they were. They're not even preparing. The world is about to end and look at them living as if it's Sodom and Gomorrah. Look at them living as if it's Noah's time. And so... Even my view of people now that I look back at it, was like, there was very little love because I felt like a prophet of doom trying to tell people it's about to end and you guys are asleep and you need to get out of your stupor and out of your slumber. And so there was very little love in it. And that's what I see now, even for people who have that view is that because they are so consumed. by the fact that the world is about to end. And there is a part of them, there's a part of me anyway that wanted it to be so. I wanted, God, come on, start it, burn, destroy, you know, cause that's what's gonna lead us to the point where we get glory. We get to the point where we get to heaven. We get to the good part. And do you think, there almost like a bit of a, I know this was the case for me, a little bit of a sort of narcissistic element of it too, that thinking you are part of this special group that are gonna go through this and you're, you you're almost like the hero in the movie. Yeah. and that's why I loved the movies about the left behind and the tribulation, saints and everything. I loved it because I was like, finally. And I would preach it. If you listen to my message, I would preach it. that God is going to give us this special grace. We are going to be the shining heroes. We are going to be the ones that are going to show the world that they were wrong. And, know, I would read Revelation because I at that point I was I had been taught to read myself into the Bible in almost every way, you know. I see Jesus and everything. So I see myself in Revelation 2 where they come and they kneel down before us and they admit we were right and they were wrong. And I would even tell people like if somebody argued with me and say, okay, see you soon. We'll see. Let's see how you feel about it once it starts happening. think you're, you think. So it was very narcissistic in my view. And of course I regret, you know, having even such a view, but that's the view I was raised in. And that's the view that I adopted and that I took up and say, this is mine. Yeah. So where did the, when did that flip? When did the penny drop and what led you right out of that into something completely different? Well, like I said, I've always had this ministry, especially from about 2014, 2015. That's when the change really began to happen, when that flip from pre-tribulation to post-tribulation began. Because once that happened, because that was such a radical shift for me, I was like, what else could I be wrong? If I was so wrong. And because before that, you see, I grew up as a, at least in my adult life, as a charismatic Christian. And as a charismatic Christian, you are led by the Spirit. And so when you pray and you fast and you open your Bible, the Spirit gives you clarity of what the passage means. Right. So this how I studied the Bible. So and I was convinced that the Spirit had led me to believe in the pre tribulation. But now about 2014, 2015, I began to say, hmm, I think there is a great part of it that he he definitely God leads us. But I think he allows us. to grow at our own speed or with the capacity that we have of thought and diligence in study. So I began to change even my thought about how do I study? So I began to look at people in the reform doctrine, people like John MacArthur, John Piper, even the old guys like Jonathan Edwards and Charles Sprague. I began to say, what was different about them? How did they look at the Bible differently? Yep. that's the first time I came into the issue of hermeneutics and understanding that there is a proper way to actually look at the text and there is an improper way to look at the text. so gradually, I began to incorporate this into my studies and into my teaching. You will notice if you look at my progression in my videos that now I begin to speak about exegesis and eisegesis and exposition and looking at the text and, you know, historical grammatical method. And so at the same time, I'm praying deeply as a charismatic. I'm praying all the time. And I remember, like I said, 2017, 2018, we had a time of prayer and fasting and so much was changing. I said, God, I need I I I'm appreciative of doing the piecemeal thing, but I don't want to spend too many years being on the on the totally wrong side. So help me see where I'm really wrong. Yeah. And I forgot about that prayer. So for about two years, I was just kind of in the same place, still expecting the second coming was going to happen shortly. The tribulation was about to start. Then in 2019, December. I can't remember exactly what I was doing, but I was watching this guy and he had a video called the Jesus trip and he was just speaking about different views. And he said, and then there are these people. who are claiming that Jesus already came back. And that is just crazy. And I said, yeah, that's crazy. How would even anybody think about that? So was just thinking about different views of Christianity, you know, and when he said that, I was like, who would even think that that is crazy? mean, Jesus about to come back. But because I was on that place where I was willing to re-examine or to at least examine whatever other Christians were saying. I noted in my mind, said, after I listen to this guy, I am going to check out these people that he's saying are saying Jesus already came back. I'd never had a preterism until that point. For some reason, even in my studies in systematic theology, they just never gave it any any space of time. So that's the first time I hear about it. So after the video, I went and because he had mentioned Don Preston. I went and looked up Don Preston to see what is this ridiculous foolish man saying. And so I listened to him the first time and I was like, man, that is so stupid. And I looked at him and I can remember saying to myself, wow, he's a doctor of theology. He's a doctor, don't press it. And he is just so clueless. He just doesn't know what he's speaking about. So, but I said, let me, I'm gonna take five minutes. I'm gonna prove this guy wrong in five minutes. So I sit down with my notebook to disprove him and. He's going through Matthew 10. And I look at it and I'm like, I had a double tick. I was like, whoa. Does it read? And I'm like, how many times have I read that verse? It really says that. But I was like, oh, but it cannot mean that. Then it goes to Matthew 16. And as he's going through it, I begin to say, oh, my goodness, how come I've never seen all these verses? That was the first time I'd seen those verses for what they were saying. So that's where the flip really happened for me, but I didn't immediately embrace it. I was really, really frustrated that these guys were bringing up verses that to me, it seemed as if they were inserting verses into my Bible. So it took me maybe two or three months before I really began to consider that this could be the correct position. And so all that's, the other funny thing about this is all that's happening is COVID starts to hit. So that was, mean, COVID was your end times. Now, interestingly, if I had not come to understand this, COVID would have been the correct, the right place for me to say, look at it now, it's starting, right? But because this happened just before COVID began, that's when I came to it, now I was in a big turmoil, but I began to consider that maybe COVID has nothing to do with the end times. And so for me, COVID was never this is the end times because that was the time that I was not investigating it, looking into it, listening to different people, listening to Gary DeMa, listening to the Bible Answer Man, listening to Ken Gentry, Don Preston, Ed Stevens. So I was listening to all these guys and I could see that what they were saying disturbed me, but they were being very faithful. to what I had come to see as the proper way of approaching the text. They were using exegesis. They were allowing the text to speak for itself. They were not imposing themselves on the text. And so for me, COVID time, I will always associate it with the time that like the lights turned on. That's when I really began to see the Bible the way I believe it should be seen. Yeah. like Steve with, you know, with your wife and eight kids? that experience, you know, your kids had only ever really experienced you as sort of a doomsdayer that thought the world was ending. Did they think initially you were going mad or was it a relief for them? Did it take time? Is it still taking time? Now, first of all, for my wife, it surprised me because when I first discovered it, I didn't say anything to anybody. was looking into it for about two weeks. I was very, very angry at God. I was very angry at all my past teachers. I was angry at myself. And I thought I was going crazy. Honestly, thought I was going crazy. This cannot be. This cannot be. But eventually, when I got ready to speak with it, I spoke to my wife first. said, Listen, I've discovered some things that are so radical. I want to hear what you have to think about it. So I began to show her what I was discovering. And the first thing she told me, you know, Steve, to be honest with you, I've always asked myself about these things. I said, what? But you sat under my teaching, you've never asked a question and we've had this open. She said, no, it was too radical for me to ask. And I thought you have to know better and all the other people. Nobody has ever. said anything about it. So, so for her, she was like, yeah, I always ask myself about these things. And now that you're saying that, it's so clear that that's what they're saying. So for her, it was really not a struggle. So and that really helped me because I was like, OK, then I'm not crazy because if you've you've been asking yourself this. So she was very supportive about it. But when I started to veer off into Israel only because that's almost always what happens at first is you You listen to all these guys, then you find an Israel only guy. Then he begins to convince you, hey, all Christianity ended. Everything was fulfilled. God is gone away. He has nothing to with mankind. Now that's where she was like, that one, I can tell you that direction. I can see that's not it. So that helped me to come off the brink. But my children, when we sat down and we began, I began to show them these things. they began to say, wow, that's like a weight taken off of us. They were happy about it. They were like, wow. Because we began to, at that time, also began to re-examine things about hell. It had been very, very heavy. Futurism and hell kind of go together. They go hand in hand. And so once we began to re-look at that and to actually see what the text says, it seemed to me like the kids, because they were not yet fully invested and I think the kids, their minds are easily, you can change, they can change easier than us. So for them, they were like, wow, this sounds more like what the Bible is saying. That's on the face of it, that's what the Bible is saying rather than what you guys were saying before. And so I think for my wife and kids, it was a much easier transition than it was for me because for me, I think it was a deeper investment. and a greater emotional thing for me. I felt as if I was losing my faith. Yeah. Have you got a theory? I actually posted something in a Facebook group about this today. And it was funny. had some of these Facebook groups are really strange how people sort of just argue with each other all the time. some of what I saying was, I mean, I hold a really similar view to you around what the scriptures are saying. And I look at it, I'm like, it's, it's really clear. Like, it's not like it's some complicated. system. It's just like, I think if you got the average non-believer to pick up a Bible, they've never heard anything before. And like, you know, what is this saying? Is this talking about something far distant future or is it imminent? Yeah. At that time, I think most of read similar things to what we're saying. And so I pose, I pose the question today. I'm like, do we really think it's taken 1950 years for people to work this out or Have you got a theory on what's happened over time? Have, have people worked it out periodically over that period of time? Just those records and writings have been scrapped or for one reason or another has the, has the teaching around future and how just blinded people to it. I think that a long time there have been significant people who figured it out and we can see it in the early church fathers, we can see it in people like Athanasias, we can see it in people like Eusebius. I think they figured it out, they understood that what was supposed to happen happened. However, at the very same time, and I think this has been the pattern of humankind, is that there are always people who are in control of how much information people get. I think that has been there from the beginning. And I think that the people in power are always interested in what is the best information that we need to get out there so that we can control the people. And so I think that there has been suppression of those people who would come out and figure it out and go, because the first time you... When you really figure it out, you usually go to the authorities and say, hey, guys, I've just discovered this. And they would look at it and they'll be like, do we really want people believing this? If people believe this, how controllable will they be? Because if you look at the history of the church, whether it's the Roman Catholic Church, whether it's the even the Reformed Church or the Pentecostal Church, even within the church circles, there is always this tendency to want to control the information that people have because you don't want people to have too much freedom. Hmm. want people to have choices. You want them to be afraid. You want them to be dependent on you as the leadership. And so I think that along the way, it's not that people didn't figure it out. I think that those who figured it out were suppressed. And I think that whenever we have a person who they cannot suppress, that's just the grace of God. See, for instance, like a Martin Luther, I believe that the... the organized church tried to suppress what he was saying because it was going to be too much of a change. But I think the grace of God was more than sufficient to make sure that what he discovered came out and became the norm. so I think there are two things working. So there is the manipulation of humans. But also, I think that there is the plan of God to where God allows ideas to come forth when they are ready, when people are ready to receive them. So you know, like how it says in the fullness of time, God sent his son. Yeah. In other words, I think if Jesus, let's say had been born 400 years before his time, it would have been too early. So in the same way, I think that people have to have been mature enough just as a people to be able to receive it. And so that's why we see it. The change is happening almost every 500 years. And so that's why I think it did not become mainstream earlier on because I think it was just not a time that people are not it ready. Yeah, I agree with that. I think the church is a body and humanity needs to go on the journey. And, and yeah, what's the Bible say about our, our life is but a vapor. You know, it is it's 70, 70, 80 years on average, but that's small in terms of the, the timeline of, of human history and, and church history as well. Steve, you mentioned Israel only. One of my most recent guests is Jen Fishburne, who was an ex-Israel-only, now atheist, former Christian. What led you, when you started looking at Israel only, so we covered that, any listeners of this episode will have heard a little bit of that. What led you to say that, Israel only can't be true? See at first when I started looking at it, the Israel only people focus on the verses that show that Jesus only came for Israel, God was only dealing with Israel, God gave the law only to Israel, and very appealing. And it seemed to me that all the passages that had to do with the return of Jesus had to do with gathering Israel back to God. But then, thank God, I had already had a long foundation of studying the Bible and I had already seen and I already knew from the beginning that Adam was not an Israelite. The Patriarchs were not Israelite. Noah was not an Israelite. And especially with Noah, because that had been a very interesting topic for me before I even came into all this, Noah was the progenitor of most of the people that live in the Middle East and North Africa. So like for instance, Ham. was the father of Egypt and Libya and Assyria and all these people. Then you have Shem and Japheth. And so I already knew that when God made a covenant with Noah, and it said it's an everlasting covenant, it was with Noah and all his sons. And all his sons did not all lead to Israel. In fact, Israel comes from only one branch, which is Shem, which goes through one man, Abraham. It seemed to me that all these other people were also part of God's plan. You know, you see passages, I think like I think it's Isaiah 19 or Isaiah 18, where he says that at the time when I do this, Israel and Assyria and Egypt will become united and they will all come and worship me. And so such passages, you know, he would talk about how he gave up. I remember actually early on I watched a video by Tim Martin, and these are actually I came to know about Tim Martin, and he was talking about the promised land of Lot. So I'm watching this, and I'm like, and he gives so much evidence that God had made promises and covenants with gentile nations, which were not Israel. He had made covenants with Moabites to give them promised land. He had made covenants with Sidon and Tyre. And so, so. I think I only doubled and listened to the Israel only and considered it to have any value for maybe all of, maybe a week and a half. But when I considered all these other passages and I could tell that from the beginning from Genesis, God's view or God's goal was to reach all of humanity, not just Israelites. And so, So all the other persons that talk about the other people that are not Israelites and God's plan to save them, God's plan to bless them. That's what helped me to come out of that idea. And of course, when I came into covenant creation, which I'm sure we'll mention as we go now, that helped me to have a proper worldview of not only the the the peoples that lived in the Bible, but also what that had to do with the people that now live. in on the planet apart from the people that lived in the Bible. Yeah, do you want to, I mean, any Christian and any preterist and anyone that knows you is going to know very clearly what covenant creation is. Maybe for someone that's never heard of it before, what's your, what's it, can you give us an explanation of it? Yes, absolutely. Now, a covenant creation is the understanding that, first of all, God is a God of covenants and God deals with human beings through covenants. And we have two main covenants. We have the old covenant and we have the new covenant. And that in Genesis chapter one, what is happening there is an establishment of a covenant with a people that already existed in the world. And The way that one actually comes to understand covenant creation the best is first of all, by understanding the end of the of the old covenant at the second coming of Christ. So in other words, of the best pathway is possible for us for somebody to understand pretorism, that Jesus Christ returned in our past and that the old covenant world passed away in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and when the sacrificial system was brought to an end. And so once I understand that, then I have to ask if the first heaven and the first earth of Revelation 21 passed away and the sea is normal, when did that first heaven and first earth and sea get created? And of course, naturally, you have to go back to Genesis one because that's where you see heaven, earth and sea being established first. so covenant creation shows or explains that In the beginning in Genesis one, it is not a material creation that is being described, but a covenant creation. In other words, Genesis is using the same allegorical and metaphoric and symbolic protocols as in Revelation so that heaven and earth and sea are not space and physical earth and oceans, but rather those are symbols that describe the different categories of people that God got into covenant with. And so therefore, we are not looking for a material creation at Genesis. We are looking at a covenant creation, the establishment of a relationship between God and people. Dr. John Walton, who is not a covenant creationist, has what is called a functional creation view. And what he says, which is very similar, is that at Genesis, All that is happening is that God is reorganizing people who already exist in order for them to establish a system of worship and a system of relationship with Him. But it is not the creation of the physical world that is happening there. Yeah, what, yeah, if you possessed a time machine and you could jump in it and you can go back to the time where the first three chapters of Genesis is happening, what do you think you're, what are you looking at and what are you experiencing? I think what is happening, first of all, you have a very ancient, you know, civilization of people, the Sumerians, the Akkadians, the people of Mesopotamia. And I believe that they are living life as we imagine it. are living. Now, I think that they, at least at the time of Genesis, they have developed into cities. They are developed into very organized communities. However, They have no knowledge of God. They have no knowledge of how the world came to be, what the world is about. They have no knowledge of anything that we know about God today. And I believe that it is at this point, and I think that there's many religions at that point. I think there's many beliefs. that. Yeah. there's, there's, there's stories of gods. Yeah. There's, yeah. have many stories of gods. They have many ideas, many theories of who controls what they they think that, you know, thunderstorms are gods. They think that the oceans are anything that they can understand must be some god or some some being that that that is controlling the world. And I believe that at that time, that's when God considers that humanity is ready to begin to receive the information about who he is. and what he did. And I believe that he chooses a people within the Middle East, amongst the Sumerians or amongst the Mesopotamians. And he begins to reveal himself to them using language they are already used to, using communication that they are already using. And so that's why when we look at the creation story and we look at, let's say, for instance, even the creation stories of other peoples around there, the Egyptians or... or the Sumerians, they are very similar. They are all speaking pretty much the same language, just different variations. And they are using a lot of metaphor as was common to them. I think that's what's happening in that time of history. And do you think, so when we talk about like Adam and Eve and then we'll have to get to the serpent, is Adam a singular man? Is Eve a singular woman or are they metaphors for peoples? I think that in Genesis one, Adam is a population. believe Adam is like the way you would say God decided he's going to deal with Israel or God as a nation, as a people, right? Because that's what's presented there. says, he said, let us make mankind because the first usage of the word Adam, it's not a proper noun. It's just a descriptive word of a people. made men in his own image. And then he says them, he made them male and female. made them, I think, is a general population which God is now going to begin revealing himself to. But when you get to Genesis two, I believe that there is a specific man and a specific woman who it may be that their names are actually Adam and Eve, because we do see in other cultures, I think, for instance, it is the I believe it's the Assyrians who have Adapa. I believe the Akkadians have Adamu. So they are these historical figures, even in the ancient nearest writings that have very similar names to Adam. So there was a man whose name is Adam, but he comes out of the population of the people group called the Adamites. Yeah. And then what's, so when this man, when God starts to reveal himself to this man and woman Eve, what then happens with the great fall of mankind, you know, which is Genesis three, where the serpent comes into the garden and tempts them. What do you think, what are we in that time machine? What do you think we're watching happen there? I think what we're watching happen is this. So we have the people group called Adam and they all live somewhere in the Middle East around, you know, Persia, Saudi Arabia around there. And I think that amongst these people, Adam is the person who is carved out by God to be the first priest. So I believe that Adam is at the temple. He has an actual temple. There's even excavations that they've done that are about 4800 BC. And they have found a small temple and with an altar with burnt offerings that is actually as old as what the Bible says. And I believe that he's at the temple with his wife. They're the ones who are serving as the first two words of the first temple. But they also have other people within that community that are with them being the guides of people spiritually. And so what I believe is that amongst them, there there is another person who is within their service. Yeah. who is a close confidant of Adam and Eve. And as they are grappling with how to fashion this new faith, this new religion in which they are guiding the people into God's knowledge, I believe that the serpent being another human being gives very bad advice, very bad counsel. He misleads Adam and Eve into contradicting what God is revealing to them because I believe that God is revealing himself to them supernaturally through visions and dreams. And so he misleads them away from the path, you know, by promising them, hey, if we double into this, we'll get into deeper knowledge, you know. And that's what I'm seeing in Genesis is that the serpent is a human being, just as Adam is a human being, just as Eve is a human being. And we know this, at least the way that I see it is that In that culture, the ancient eras, often, and especially in religious circles, people are described as animals often. So you have, you know, you have kings being described as lions or mighty monsters and so on and so forth. And so in their telling of the story, they assign to the men who misled them the the the image of a serpent because even then snakes, serpents, reptiles would have been considered to be very, very sneaky, to be very deceptive because they slither. And so because remember the story is being written afterwards, it's not being written in real time. I believe that Adam records what happened in the temple texts after it has happened. How did we fall out with God? What happened? Why did we get into this chaos that we are in? So he's recording. in tablets. So that's another thing that I do believe that Adam actually wrote the early parts of Genesis. So I do believe that the serpent was a human being. We are told in Genesis three that he was one of the the creatures that God made in the garden that was to serve together with the men. yeah, interesting. While we're on the topic of creation, maybe we can circle back a long way to your early upbringing, because I know you mentioned early on that you became Christian in the early 2000s. So you obviously didn't grow up Christian, and you grew up in the, you know, the foreign land of Kenya. So tell us, what's it like growing up in Kenya? And what is, what's your worldview? All right, now. do they think about creation? Right, now let me say this. When I say that I became a Christian in 2007, that might sound a little bit deceptive because in Kenya, generally Kenya is a very, very, very Christian country, at least when I'm growing up. We have been colonized by the British and of course, eventually we became a Christian majority nation. So when I'm born, My parents are very committed Christians. They're going to church. We are going to Sunday school every Sunday. And it is one of those things that even when you grow up into teenagers, you either go to church or you don't live in my house, even if you don't believe. And we are learning Christian religious education as a subject that is required just like mathematics or English or geography. So all the way up to the last year of high school, you're learning CRE, which is Christian Religious Education. So we were we were very inundated with the Bible. We knew the Bible. But what I mean, I became a Christian is that this is the first time that my eyes were open and my heart was open to believe in God personally, to begin seeking him, to begin serving him. So I grew up in a very, very, very deeply Christian culture. So we believe in the Bible to be the fundamental truth of the world. So you go to most Kenyans, you ask them, do you believe the world was created 6,000 years ago? absolutely. Is somebody suggesting any different? Do you believe that Jesus is the only God? Of course. mean, who else could there be? So for most Kenyans, 80 % of Kenyans consider themselves to be Christians, even if they don't go to church. but of course, In my teenage years, especially when I turned 17 or 18, I began to explore other religions, other viewpoints. And for a period of time, they became an atheist. And I just didn't feel that I wanted to commit myself or submit myself to the worship of God. So from about 17 or 18 until I was about 33, I did not go to church. I did not pursue anything to do with God. Uh, so it was not until I was married for five years that I came into a crisis point in my life that and now I felt I need help. My marriage was breaking apart. Uh, my life was in, was in Taurus. And so that's the first time that I pray to God and say, God, if you exist, I need help. I need you to reveal yourself to me. And I, and I believe that's the first time that I really come into a place where I sense God speaking to me. I feel God. calling me toward himself and I begin to have a desire to know more about him. So that's in 2007. But generally, I grew up believing that what the Bible says, or at least what I was told the Bible says, the world was created 6,000 years ago. There is a place called hell that I'm soon going to be going to go and burn forever and ever. All that was part of the basic beliefs. But my parents were also doctors. My father is a general practitioner. My mother is a dentist. So they were scientists. And so when I went into high school and we began to learn other things in science, you know, about the age of the world and evolution and all this stuff, I would come home and it confused me because I was like, mom or dad, I need you to explain to me, you are Christians. But you also scientists, are you saying you don't believe in homo sapiens or homo erectus or, know, and Kenya is one of those places where they say early men is supposed to have been. And so we would have these discussions and now my parents would begin to say we are Christians, yes. And so my mother was very fundamental. She'd like, yeah, whatever the Bible says is what it says. But at the same time, she would say, but if it was to be discovered that what scientists are saying is true, it would still not change because. God would be the one that arranged it like that. So I began to have this dual view that science could be right, but the Bible must always be right. So I was not really settled on that question for long time. And I don't know that I am truly, truly, truly settled. But at least for now, I know for a fact that God did do something 6,000, 7,000 years ago. But now I know it was not the material creation. So now I'm more willing to say, So there was this thing that had been happening for millions of years, but at the right time, God enters into humanity and reveals his plan, his covenant plan, his plan for redemption about six or 7,000 years ago, right? Yeah, I was actually I was chatting with a friend today. I don't know if you listen to it but Mel Gibson, the actor was on Joe Rogan. Yeah, it was listened to the latest, I am familiar with that. Yeah, it was, I mean, I think Mel's got terrible theology, but I think he's a genuine believer and, and it was an entertaining lesson that they were talking about. You know, Rogan was talking about Homo erectus and all the other different humans and Mel Gibson, obviously, I think, holds this fairly, fairly sort of fundamentalist view and he's just sort of like, no, I don't really believe any of that. But he's like, don't really buy what they're selling on it. But what I was saying to my friend today is this, I don't really buy what they're selling on it either, but I don't need it to be false for my Christian worldview to work. Whereas that's not the most Christians absolutely relied on a lot of these narratives being false because if so, it's. essentially in their mind disproves their faith. Right. And I think that that's where covenant creation really helps so much because a lot of Christians will not, even if there was 100 % evidence that the world was created 15 billion years ago, the earth has only existed for 4.7, they cannot deal with it because their worldview, and especially within the last 200 years, last 100 years with fundamentalism, is that Without Adam being the first biological human being, then you cannot convince people that they are sinners. But what covenant creation helps for people to see is that, no, there was sin in the world before Genesis one. Romans 513 says that before the law was given, sin was in the world. People are sinful. People are killing each other. And that's what we see in archaeological records. People are living very, very violent lives. But when God breaks through about six to seven thousand years ago, it is in order to declare the light of the gospel. It is in order to begin to, you know, sensitize people as to what sin is. And that's what he does with with Adam because God wanted to change humanity. Right. But God is a God of order. He begins with a people. He begins with a man. It begins with a community. And this news is supposed to spread gradually throughout history. And that's exactly what we see happening. And we see it accelerating, especially after Jesus comes and dies and resurrects. And he predicts that this mustard seed knowledge is going to spread throughout the world. And now we are in a world in the 21st century where almost everybody has heard about the God of the Bible. Almost everybody has heard about Jesus Christ, exactly what the Bible says. So to me, when people tell me, well, if Adam is not the first human being, then how can you preach to them about sin? And I was having a conversation with that with one of my opponents. And I told them, listen, I come from Africa. My people did not hear about Jesus Christ until 1844. But when the first missionaries came to my people in Kenya, they did not need to convince us that we were sinners. We are in our culture. We already have a recognition that people are evil, people are sinful and that we need to do something about it. We already had protocols of discipline. We already have protocols of justice. So when they come to us and they tell us we have good news about how to deal with evil, we're not like what is evil? We are not evil. No, no, no, we know evil. We are masters of inequity. We are masters of evil. Same thing, if you got in the Amazon forest today, you don't need to convince those people who are enriched or that there is murder or that there is rape or that there is lying or stealing. No, they know it. They see it in their community. So I don't need to convince them that they became sinners because they descended from Adam. Because they already know they are sinners before they know about Adam. Now, what I need to convince them is, do you have a good solution for this? Do you have an eternal solution for this? Yeah. believe that every community believes and at least my community believe there was an afterlife. We believed that whatever a man did in this life was going to affect their position or their situation in the afterlife. So when the Christians come and they tell us the God of the universe, the God who created everything, sent his only son, he died on the cross in order to make sure that you can obtain eternal life. We were like, tell us more about this. Yeah. is what we have been trying to figure out within our own systems. So I don't need everybody to come from Adam in order to deal with sin. What I need to know is this God of the universe who created everything, what has he done or what is he requiring? What way has he provided that we can follow and resolve this issue of sin? Yeah, yeah, I agree. find, mean, I'm the same as you. I don't think Adam was the first human and that really rattles a lot of Christians. And I've heard the question, the same one, oh, well, if Adam's not the first human, then why do I need Jesus? Yeah, why are you? And I take the same view. like, I don't know. I'm like, if you're not convinced, then maybe you're not. Maybe, know, I don't think this is a theology issue for you. I think maybe you need to sort of look inside your own heart a little bit more. I think it's an issue of this is what somebody has been told. If you don't believe that Adam is the first human being, you cannot be a Christian. So therefore, when they hear you say, I don't believe Adam was the first human being on the earth, then Christianity becomes. It becomes untenable for them. But it's the same thing like if you tell people Jesus is not coming back soon, the same is just like a future is to tell them Jesus is not coming back soon. Then what hope is there? Yeah, yeah. is the point of it anyway? And you're like really? So you believe that Jesus coming back in your future is what determines all of life Right, but that's not what the Bible is teaching the Bible is teaching that at some point of history Jesus was going to come back and when he came back Life was going to continue on the earth, but it was going to continue on the basis of his finished work, right? So for me, hope is not taken away just because Jesus came back in my past Yeah. same way, sin does not go away just because I realize I don't belong to the line of Adam. No, I belong to a line of people who are sinners and we need a resolution to evil. Jesus Christ is that solution. Because Adam doesn't save us. What I believe about Adam really does not change. My my pathway to salvation. So even if I was to say. I don't really believe Adam was a real human being. Let's say I believed he was an allegory. Nevertheless, the question is, do you believe that Jesus was a real human being? Do you believe Jesus died on the cross? That's what matters. Do you believe that Jesus provides a solution for anyone, anywhere in any generation to come into relationship with God and to come into a place of obtaining righteousness? That's the core belief that every person who is a Christian needs to believe. Yeah, great. What do you think the future path is for the Christian church and then by extension the world now? And when I say future path, I'll keep you on your initial timeline as a futurist that was, you know, looking at the world up until 2050. There's so many different narratives and storylines and weird things happening in the world now. I think we've got a whole lot of sort of counterfeit prophecy. seems to be happening. The church is a mess in many ways, society is a mess in many ways. I think as a reflection on that, what's your sort of diagnosis? Well, this is what I think. First of all, remember the concept that we say that the church is a real being, a real organism that's growing. And so I believe that right now the church is a teenager. That's why I think there's all these hormonal tantrums and it looks like a mess. Just like you can remember when you are a teenager, things just look like a mess. You are clumsy. But I believe that the church is going to continue to grow and to mature. I believe that by about 2070, futurism or at least pre-millennialism will be dead because everything, all their prophecies will have come to the place where they can no longer be sustained. Right. And so they will have to now go back to the drawing boards and they will find that there are people who have already discovered that already took place. So, you know, wise up and just believe the Bible for what it says. Jesus already came back. And since the Bible shows that the plan of God was gradually in a very, very, very gradual, progressive way to infiltrate the world with his kingdom, I believe that's meant to continue for thousands upon thousands of years. And over time, the knowledge of God is going to impact the world in a very positive manner, but it's not going to all happen at once. I believe the way it's been happening is the way it's going to continue to happen. yeah, yeah. believe that when you look at the world right now, even though it may feel like a mess, the world is way better than it used to be even 500 years ago, even 200 years ago. And I believe that Christianity has very much to do with that because you look at the most developed nations, places where there's most healthcare is in the West, is where the light of the gospel has been shining greatly. And yet we are just at the very beginning of this explosion of knowledge. So I believe that the world will gradually, continually become a better place as people have a better understanding of God and his plan to dwell with men in the visible world perpetually. Now, do I believe that the earth is always going to be here? No, I believe. read my mind. I was about to ask that question. Right. I believe that just based on the laws of nature, the way God has set them up, I believe that solar system is going to collapse. And we can see that with other solar systems or other star systems in these galaxy and in other galaxies. Eventually they run out of fuel. Eventually they collapse. New star systems are always being made. I believe that humanity will be able to conquer space. I believe that humanity is going to move. from this planet and from this solar system. It may take a million years, but I believe that the thrust and the knowledge of humankind is going towards that direction. I believe that's God's You know, I remember, I don't know if you ever watched that movie, Contact, from back in the day, and they were asking the question, well, if there's nobody out there in these whole galaxies and everything, then what a waste. And I don't believe it's a waste. I believe that God created it as it is, as a frontier for humankind. to explore and to colonize and to occupy in the millions of years to come. And I believe that the faith of Jesus Christ is going to be spread throughout. Now, I know that's a personal opinion, but so in other words, when it says that the earth will never end in Ecclesiastes, one generation comes, another generation goes, but the earth and years will go, I don't believe it's speaking about the planet earth. It's speaking about the land. which is really speaking about the people of Israel. Yes, God's people will always exist. God's people are created to dwell in the visible world. Perpetually, I don't believe that there will ever come a time when nobody is in the visible world or the visible world doesn't exist. I believe that God intends for this to be here and for it to continue to be the domain of human beings. Do you think, I mean, this is just purely speculation now, which is a bit of fun, know, who we spend so much time to try to work out what passages say we may as well be a little bit imaginative in, you know, we're in year 20, 25 now in the year, you know, 15,000. How do you think, like, is the world looking back at the story of the itinerant preacher Jesus of Nazareth in 15,000 years earlier as still relevant for them. I believe so. really do believe that because if Jesus is who he says he is, if Jesus is God and Jesus came from heaven to reveal God, which I believe without a shadow doubt in my, that's one of the things I told you. don't see that changing in my life. I believe that he will be even more significant then because it's my belief that as the world goes and as the church goes, there'll be a clearer and clearer understanding of what was meant in the scriptures. Just like right now, we look at the scriptures, we see all the interconnection of the scriptures, right? And as people, we have a clearer understanding of the gospel than let's say Martin Luther and his generation. And so in the same way, I believe the people 500 years from now, they'll be looking at us and be like, you guys were just discovering that Jesus returned? Hmm. I mean, that's basic. That's axiomatic. You should have known this. So I believe that as people go, there'll be more discoveries, even in archaeology. I believe that many writings that have been suppressed or that are not discovered and translated will come to light. think it's Gary De Ma who said that based on what is known, only about 10 % of what was written by the Church Fathers has been translated or even discovered. Right. So In the next 500 years, I believe that much of that comes to light. And all of a sudden we realize, so there are so many more people in the first century, second century, third century that actually believe that Jesus already came back, but that information was suppressed. So I believe that the information gets clearer and clearer and clearer down the line. And the belief in Jesus Christ becomes even more solid. So I don't think they'll look back and say how primitive it was. They'll be like, wow. He came in when people were so close and it will even be more of a miracle to them based on how developed they will be. But of course, it could be that we are going to have another Ice Age and another catastrophic destruction of civilization and then they'll have to start over again. So they'll be where we are. I don't know. But my hope is that things will only get better and better. in terms of understanding what God has done, what God did through Jesus Christ and why it has taken as long as it has for people to begin to come to an understanding of. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think patience and humility about how small our time on earth is in this far longer journey helps us to sort of work out these narratives and understand where it all goes. So Steve, what's life been like since you came from Kenya to America? Well, I came to the United States in 1999. I first of all came to go to school, which I did and completed by 2004. And at the time, like I said, I was not really following in the pathway of seeking God. I was a lifer. I was a drunkard. I was clubbing. was what I felt was enjoying life. Yeah. And so, but I also got married within three years of coming here. And that changed my life radically because now I have to begin to think about life and my wife and I didn't know each other very well when we first got married. So the first five years of my life in America as a married person was it was really bad because I was very narcissistic and I felt this marriage thing was cramping my style. So and that is what actually led to the crisis where we were like Something has to break either we have to figure this thing out or we need to go our separate ways. So in 2007, I came to faith in Christ. I I became a transformed man. stopped living the life I was living. And I would say for me, as far as I can remember, when I look at my life, that's when my real life really began in America. That's when purpose became clear to me what what was the purpose of my life. What was the purpose of my marriage? What was the purpose of my parenting? And of course, at the time I felt in 2007, 2008, my purpose was to prepare my family for the soon coming of Jesus and the Great Regulation. And so I really focused on God and I really focused on learning and studying theology and studying the Bible and studying other worldviews. you know, you know, being an apologetic kind of person. And so in 2019 was the next big shift, which when I discovered that Jesus already came back in our past and that this world is not going to end and that God's kingdom in this world is going to continue to to to to be here, that changed my whole worldview. I look at the world so differently now. I love this earth. I love the people on this earth. I want this world to be conserved for the future. I want to leave a legacy for my children. I want to leave a legacy not only for my children, but for the people that are coming behind us. Now I find myself constantly sitting with my children and also with the chat people are saying, we need to do something now that will impact people 500 years from now. Whatever we believe, whatever we write, even the videos that I do all the time. I'll be honest with you, look, I'm always thinking. 500 years from now people are going to be watching this a thousand years people from now people are going to be so that's always my view I'm not I'm not just thinking of I need to get likes and I need to get a following now That that is important, but I don't think that's as important. I'm thinking how can I impact this generation so that Ten generations down the line or five generations down the line It is actually making it clear for them and better for them how to live and how to follow after God and how to seek after God and how to impact their fellow men for good, for love, for righteousness. So that's how my life has turned out to be and I'm loving it. Awesome. It's an extraordinary worldview. I've really appreciated you coming on Steve and sharing your story and hearing a little bit more about your backstory and how you think and how you've worked through these things. I've certainly been able to see a different side of you. Maybe just a final comment. You have spoken about, you just mentioned it then looking sort of 500 years into the future. What is your... I mean, what's your real purpose right now moving forward? I believe, just as it has always been, my real purpose is to serve God, to serve the glory of God, to be a vessel, to reveal God to people. But more especially now to reveal the outworking of God's plan so that people can understand what the plan was at the beginning, what the plan was in the middle section when Jesus came, what the plan was for the second coming and what the plan was. is for the future. Because I think that when people have a clearer map of what life is all about and where it's going, then it's easier to put your roots down. It's easier to lay a good foundation and to begin to live a life that is going to be significant, not only in the present, but for the future generations. Because for me, when I look at the way that I looked at the world before I discovered about the whole plan of God, Mm-hmm. very temporary. It was very self-centered. It was very selfish. It was all about here and now and me and escaping. was escapism at its best. But now, by the grace of God, I think I have a clearer view of the of the map of eternity, that eternity is not just lived out in life after this one, but that eternity is lived out by the church here. Yeah, here and now, yeah. but at the same time, I believe in heaven. I believe that after this, I continue to be alive. so therefore, my purpose and my goal in life is not only to please God here and now, but also to be able to duel with him and to see how he works out the plan from the other side of heaven. Awesome. Great story, Steve. Once again, really appreciate it. And in the show notes, I'll drop some links to all your content. And I hope people that are hearing about you for the first time can go and check that out. There's probably over a thousand videos, I think, aren't there? they'll... There's plenty to sink their teeth into. Thanks, mate. And look, I want to thank you so much even for taking the time to speak with me and to give me an opportunity to just express myself. I don't take it for granted. This is a great, great, great. May God bless you and your ministry and your podcast. May everything that you do just be abundantly blessed. I that, it's been my absolute pleasure and God bless you and your family too. Thanks for offering.