What's The Point Anyway?
It seems like much of the Western world is lost. The interesting trend over the last few years is that more and more people are working that out.
More people have worked out that endless materialism and chasing things that never actually satisfy us aint it.
So what’s the point of it all, anyway?
What's The Point Anyway?
What's The Point Anyway - Growing up in Egypt and Becoming Catholic with Mesh Mesha
Unlike most of us in the West who grow up in a predominately Christian society, Mesh grew up in the minority Coptic community in the majority Muslim country of Egypt. When she came to Australia as an adult, it was her husbands search for faith that led her to truly question what was ultimately a cultural belief system. She spent many years as a 'church nomad' and in recent years became convinced that the Catholic Church is indeed the true Church of God.
Though I first became a believer within a Catholic Church, I have been a 'protestant' for most of my believing life and would consider myself 'anti-Catholic' like many other Christians who look at Rome as a counterfeit religion. In past episodes I have been openly critical of Catholicism and whilst I've never questioned the faith of many of its people, I am highly critical of the papacy and many other elements of the Church. This episode was very interesting for me, because I have gotten to know Mesh and believed many things that she did before I learned that she was Catholic. In having discussions, she has forced me to reconsider some of my presuppositions which have been influenced by culture and society. Whilst I still reject Catholicism, this was a chance to have an open and honest conversation about things where maybe what I currently believe are wrong.
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Okay. going yeah, so what I'll just ask the first question. What's the point anyway? You can give your answer on that doesn't need to be in depth whatever and then and then we'll just continue the sort of conversation we've been doing that I'll probably ask you know, I'll probably ask more about like Just for starters like your upbringing and what it was like growing up in Egypt and then how you've sort of got yourself to where you are now And now I'll just, do you want, how should I refer to it? Mesh? Yeah, Mesh is fine. Thank you. Good to see you. You too. What's the point anyway? the point is love God and live a good life for Him. That's the point. I think that's the point. So I've really got the, I've enjoyed getting to know you, I guess just through sort of this face, you know, mutual Facebook groups that we're in. And I always found your comments really insightful. But then when I found out about your story, when we started messaging each other and asking a few more questions, I was fascinated. So as soon as you said that, I was sort of even more interested to bring you on the show. Can you just talk me through your journey, your sort of life journey up to this point now and, and you know, where you grew up, what that was like and how you've got to sunny Queensland in Australia. Sure. So I grew up in Egypt. Just a standard upbringing really. Orthodox Coptic, I don't know if you know about Coptics. They're minority Orthodox in Egypt that are very small community. I wouldn't say very, they're like about 20 million of them in Egypt. And there's a lot of us everywhere around the world really because of migration. really, really old, my understanding it's a really old denomination. Yes, so it's actually was in union with the Catholic Church. So it part, you could say part of the Catholic Church. It was not actually a separate church until I think it was 1051. So that's when they split and they split over from what I understand is actually a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ or like miscommunication. but I do believe there's a very slight small difference in their understanding. But then things have progressed where they have a different theology in terms of they don't believe in purgatory and they're very similar to a big extent, but they're different in terms of the progression they've. I think the Catholic Church have kept the faith more intact than the Orthodox, even though they claim the other way. And they are lovely people and they're very, very loving. They're just very culturally oriented. It's sort of a small culture, local group. Yeah. And is it, is it initially Egyptian? So the Coptics, Coptics just means Egyptian actually. It's just the language, the original language of Egypt was Coptic. and there is, they are in communion with other Orthodox groups such as the Ethiopian Orthodox. Yeah, and the Oriental Orthodox. They're not exactly the same with the Oriental, but they're in communion with them. Yeah. So what was it like for you growing up? So you were just born into a orthodox Coptic family in Egypt. Yeah. went Sunday school. I learned all the hymns. I sat through a five, six hour mass. It's not a short mass, it's a long mass. It starts at 6 a.m. when you finish about 11. So, every day. But I mean, there's the weekly one where everyone goes to and there's shorter daily ones. a Sunday Mass is the weekly one. It's a Friday because Egypt, we don't get Sunday off, unfortunately, because it's an Islamic country. So they give them Friday off. So we had to move our mass to Friday, but then there is also a Sunday mass for those who don't work on Sunday. makes sense. what, so what was it like growing up as a sort of Orthodox Coptic in Egypt when you were a child? Are you a, cause I mean, most, most, mean, certainly myself and most listeners to this show have grown up Western where being Christian or Catholic, I mean, it probably feels a little bit different now, but certainly 20, 30 years ago, felt like you were sort of in the majority. Were you sort of like an extreme minority in Egypt? Yes and no, like yes we are minority but we, so the church in Egypt is different. it becomes your community because you know that you're minority. only play with the same people you hang out with at church. You go to the meeting groups at church. You actually have, we had games at church. have like video games and actual board games and that sort of stuff at church. So the church is my... You could say a club, it's your club for the kids and it's for the youth and then for adults as well, they have activities. So it becomes like a safe haven because we can't really, we've always told you can't really mix with the world because we're so different than them. And because we, we always look down upon because they think that we, we are, you know how the Muslims think Egyptians, not Egyptians, but Christians are. like worship idols and they, you know, they do crazy things and they, you know, they eat real blood and they, you know, they don't understand. So they think we're crazy. So they don't really want to associate with us a lot. So unless you have friends in church, you really will have nearly no friends. You might have one or two open-minded people outside the church, but that's not often. the case. And is there like, I mean, I'm not sure whether it's similar same now as it was when you were a child, but in that community, is there secular people or is it basically majority Muslim and then you are one of us, you're a part of a small minority group that are copped in? Okay, so from my experience, the majority are actually secular, but they don't admit it openly. It's again frowned upon, so everyone pretends to be holier than they are, and they're just amazing Muslims or amazing Christians. But there's a lot of people who are actually just like do the traditions of celebrations and whatever, but then outside that. They're just everyday people, just want to get on with their lives. They don't believe in anything in particular. Yeah, okay. So a bit like, I mean, I know in Western countries, like what we would call maybe like cultural Christianity, where they go to church on Sundays and say they're a Christian, but actually don't really believe or sort of act it out. They believe it. A lot of people believe it, but they don't question, they don't read, they don't do anything. They just believe that they've been told the truth and they're practicing the truth and leave it at that. Yeah, it's it's a tradition, comforting tradition as much as anything else. Yeah. Yeah. And was it like, was it hostile growing up or did everyone sort of get along? Not always, no. It wasn't when I was growing up. when I was young, it was pretty good. And it was pretty actually good in the 80s, 90s. And then I think mid 90s, it started to change. Just before I left, it started to take a switch to extreme, like the extreme ideology. There was a bit of immigration from Saudi Arabia, all these people that came in with all the Wahhabis ideals. you don't talk to Christians, you don't buy from Christians, you don't... And these things were new because there wasn't a lot of it before that. Like Egypt was quite open and everyone was very educated. then education just went downwards at that time. just went... Yeah, art and education took a dive and people just started... I don't know. But that's... But that's my experience. I think it goes in waves. It comes in waves. And Egypt is a big population. So what I see is a small portion really of that big population. How big a population is it? Yeah, okay, yeah. and it depends on where you live, it differs greatly. Like if you live in a tiny little town where the majority are sort of farmers and Muslims and that, they tend to be very conservatives and you know, and then if you live in sort of a bigger city, you have more of a highly educated people, people who work in the corporate world, they just, they don't care, they don't mind and they're happy to have a chat. about it, laugh about it and argue about it and still be friends. So it differs a lot and that's the thing. It all depends on where you live. Yeah, whereabouts were you, Bay, in Egypt? I was in Saitan about an hour north from Cairo. And it was not a big town when I was little, but it grew very rapidly. Yeah. And what made you leave in the end? It was the thing to do back then. Everyone knew that like, you know, how great life is outside Egypt and how tough life is in Egypt and all these things, which is to an extent is correct and incorrect. So, you know, there's, there's like, you know, this balance of the grass greener. Yes. And you always see what's what the benefit is and you fail to see, you know, the downsides until you're in it. Yeah. But I mean, you know, looking back now, I'm so glad I Best thing I did. And why, so why, why'd you pick Australia at that point in time? knew someone from here that's why yeah. It's funny when people move, there's always like, if they're not one person, it always makes the move so much easier, doesn't it? Yes, yeah. I actually knew more than one person, but it's just how, you know, I was told it's one of the best places and that's correct. So yeah, and then I kind of stayed in the Orthodox Church for a while. Yeah. Did you, when you spoke before about, you know, the sort of Muslim community where they just had their traditions and they didn't really believe, did you grow up truly believing in what you followed or was it a bit of a tradition for you too? I did truly believe it. I did question some things later on in life, but I believe the basics. the basics is that God is real. He is the creator of all things. because... Later on when I sort of went through like a crucial point in my life where I questioned absolutely everything including God and Christianity and everything, I could not let go of that fact that God is real and He is the creator of all things. I put it away from my mind for a while and I was just basically like living like an atheist for a while. But it's never left me and it was always in the back of my head that I shall not sin against God. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so, let you, I mean, this might be the next part of the basics, but the child that sort of grows up in a Muslim family would believe the same as that, wouldn't they not? They would just call that God Allah, yeah. they believe that they believe 100%. I think every child believes and that's just the thing. know, when we're children, we take it all in and we 100 % believe it. And we don't question things because we trust our leaders, we trust our parents and we don't read. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what, and so what was, what were the other basics that you believe that you would... I knew that Jesus was real and I obviously believed in the Holy Spirit and the value of baptism. These are the basics that kind of didn't leave me. Like I've never, never went away from these basics. But I mean, did, I did, throughout my journey, I did go into Protestant churches for a while. Yeah. So this is, so this is once you've left, once you've left Egypt, you're in Australia and you sort of, ventured into somewhat atheism, but you still believed in God at that point in time. Is that right? You're in Australia. You're in Australia. You're just starting to explore. Yeah. Yeah. And it was mainly because of conflict in my life. When you're conflicted in your life and you're like, that what really God wants for me? You start to question things. Why is this happening? What's point of it anyway? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The fundamental question. Yeah. get to that and you're like, really, what is the point? What is this? Why? What is the truth of all this? And is there a truth? And if there is one, I'd like to find it. And then you start on a journey of trying to find it. But. how did you, where did you start then? Cause you're, yeah. I actually, I don't know, I credit my husband for that. So I was happy to just keep going. As just like, just don't think about it, just don't think about it, you know. And it's all too hard, it's all too much, you know. And then my husband, he was not my husband at the time when we met. And he started to question things. And he started to have experiences because he'd pray and he's looking for God. But he was Christian when you first met? No, right, okay. no. We're both now Christian and Catholic, but he was not either. And he was looking for God. He was looking for the truth. He's like, there has to be a truth out there. And he had the same mind on going to find it. And he used to read a lot. then he asked me about the Bible. And I remember giving him a Bible and I said, because I didn't know how to read the Bible then, and I remember when I was a child I started at Matthew. That's where you start, the New Testament. So I gave him the Bible and I said, start at Matthew. Which is probably the worst thing you can do. Do you think? What would you say now? I started Genesis. You'd start, yeah, okay. I don't know. I don't mind the idea of starting at Matthew. And I think I agree with you that it's crucial that it doesn't just, the story doesn't begin just three quarters of the way through at Matthew. My only concern with someone that's never read the Bible before is whether, I mean, the first 10, 11 chapters of Genesis would be interesting and exciting and then, You know, you get to Exodus and a bit of that sounds familiar, but where the numbers and Leviticus and all the details just bog someone down. Yes, I know that's where I always did as a child. I'd started Genesis, halfway through Genesis I'm like, forget this, next, you know, it's too hard. I don't know what's the point of this. And then I'll just skip to the next book and then I'll read a little bit of Exodus and then it gets to, you know, the old vertical laws and I'm like, man, that's too much, next. Yeah, a pinch of fine, pinch of fine flour and a bit of oil for a grain offering and... then, you know, because obviously I like the bigger picture and I wish there was a like a, you know, a prefix in the Bible to actually tell the bigger picture and just paint the picture and let me fill it in. You know, like here is what you need to understand. The, you know, here's the, the fact so many books talk about the covenant. This is about the, you know, the, and that's what that's you're going to get to that later, I'm sure. But that's what. I love about the Catholic Church. They do that. They do that. I'm like, why didn't I discover this long time ago? Yeah, it's like scrambling the puzzles together only to find out that somebody has already put it together and they had it all there all along and you've just been pulling your hair out for years trying to put it together. So that's why I love Genesis. but your husband did start at Matthew? Yeah, okay. Well, he became a Christian, so it must have worked. But keep going with that story, essentially he went to the chaplain we used to be on a defence base at the time. went to the chaplain, talked to him and he gave him a Bible and chatted to him for a bit. And then he started reading and praying and buying books and he's got his hand on some orthodox books which was very helpful in sort of shaping his sort of views on the Bible and views on what the early church did because you know the Orthodox Church are a lot about the church fathers and their stories and their life in the desert and you know their mystical experiences and all that and he was very interested and at the time I was not as interested or excited as he was but he dragged me so I was like let's go to church and I was like no now I'm gonna be going every Sunday it's like my childhood all over again. And yeah, it started from then and he would read with me and we'd read together. How long after he said, wanna borrow your Bible, did he become a professing Christian? Like was it quick or was it still a fairly long journey for it? Not that long, few years. Few years. Yeah. The thing is, for him, like, I don't want to speak on his behalf, but he had an experience that he could not deny. So he had actually an experience that changed him mentally and spiritually. Yeah. Because he was really seeking God. He was praying constantly for a sign and he got given multiple signs like and things that he saw and you know things that like like a real mystical experience that That I can't explain or no one can so see that's that's transforming points for him with where for me it was more of a like reading and like I am very He calls me the world biggest skeptic. I am very skeptic even of my own beliefs, of my own thoughts, of my own, you know. So I examined myself a million times. So he started sort of looking for, you know, for church to go to every week and we started going to a church on the base where they had a weekly service. we went to, yeah, we went pretty much every week. And then. And being on the being on the base, I'm guessing you didn't have a huge amount of choice of churches. It was basically just one church, one denominator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And is that that was, I'm guessing, just like a Baptist or Presbyterian or something, was it? I think it was Presbyterian. And then we, but that didn't stop us from going to other churches. We drove around looking for other churches and we went to the Baptists. We went to... I remember now, we went to multiple churches there. I think we've gone through all the Protestant churches. All of them. We went to the Anglican for a while. And so you were, as your husband starts to become a believer, you're starting to question your faith. What did that look like for you? Okay, so for me, it was more of a, you know how I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist, right? I'll admit that early on. And what was happening in the world at the moment made me question things. And it made me think this is a counterfeit. Like something is being manipulated to try and make people believe that Christianity is going to end and that's a very strange thought. Yeah. Cause that was that, was that the Coptic view growing up that there was a few, no. No. No. There was never, almost never, ever talk about that, Christianity going to end. Never. Never. Cause it's more, it's a bit more sort of kingdom building in its overall approach. that? Yeah. you know you're in the Kingdom, you're in God's presence in church. Church is the New Jerusalem and this is it. there is no, yes when we die we go to heaven to be with the Lord and just the basic really views but there is no talk about end times and whenever somebody asks a question, you know we used to go to meetings and people ask questions, you send your question a little piece of paper and then know somebody answers it. Yeah. always, the answer was always, don't think about that sort of stuff. Think about the end of your life. How are you going to meet God at the end of your life? That's the end for you. So it's all about the end for you, not the end of the world. And that's answer that I've always heard. They've avoided that so much. And I remember one priest, actually he was a bishop in one of the meetings saying, the reason we don't talk about it is because we don't understand it. And I was so surprised that he admitted that out loud and he actually said, we don't understand it. And if somebody tells you that they understand Revelation 100%, you know, they probably think they do, they don't. And. So, know, yeah, I mean, you've, I'm certain you've heard this. And I, and I've believed this at a point in time. don't know. But, you know, a lot of people, know, Christian conspiracy theorists say that the Catholic church doesn't teach on revelation because it's all about them as the, the anti-Christ system. No. See, that's been refuted a long time ago. yeah, I agree, because I don't think it is as well, but I mean, I've got to... Yeah. The Catholic Church is the only church that will acknowledge anti-orthodox. They will acknowledge Deceivers and AD 70 and the end of Jerusalem and the Olivet Discourse was about that. They were actually the only people that will acknowledge Nero as the Antichrist. They were the only people that acknowledged all these things. And I was like, why wasn't I told this? Yeah. You know, like why am I left to look through the relation and be wondering if it's going to happen? And I think. me as a preterist now, get futurists criticizing me all the time saying that preterism is just a Catholic conspiracy to make us think everything's in the past and not realize it's all about them. So they're true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that makes you think everything is about the future and they would love to see the Catholic Church disappear. So, I mean, as you know, I'm not Catholic, but I'm and I've been critical of Catholicism, but I've I know in our discussions we've been respectful about it. And I'm actually fascinated to dig more into the Catholicism because I if I'm going to criticize, if I'm going to criticize Catholicism, I need to be consistent. And I could throw just as many criticisms at the Protestant church as well. So we'll get to that but I thought I'd cover it just for anyone that is listening that we actually at this point in time disagree on the views of Catholicism but but you know, who knows? back to my story, at the time when I was looking, a friend of mine on the base heard that I am interested and now we go to church. And she's a Protestant Christian. I forgot what her denomination was. But anyway, she was like, oh, know, that's great. That's a great idea. Let's go to Bible studies together. And she dragged me to a couple of Bible studies. And then she gave me... Do you remember the iPod? I'm that old. And she was like, know, all these things are iPod for Chuck Missler. Do you know Chuck Missler? Yeah. And all his futurism and dispensation is to use. And I used to go for walks around every day and I'd listen the entire time I'm walking into him. And there's no like, just couldn't put them together. Like I'd listen and listen over and over. So I'd listen to every one of his sermons about five times trying to match just to get how did he get to there? Like how did he get to hear from there? You know? And then I wasn't reading much then, but I was just taking it all in. And I was like, I suppose, you know, maybe, maybe he's right. I went with it, you know? And And she was such a good Christian. She would say, oh, you know, let's pray together and let's do things together. And she was so lovely. And when we left the base, this is a very unfortunate event, I'm going to tell you now. We went to Brisbane, oh, not straight away. But for a while we went to Canberra and then we went to some... I think it might have been Anglican Church or maybe Presbyterian. No, Presbyterian. And then we moved to Brisbane anyway and then we met the Plymouth brethren. Do you know? Yeah. You know about them? give us an overview of them. They basically Derby's people, know, John Derby. So they are all about that. They're all about dispensationalism. That's all their lives. it's very, honest view is very morbid. They are very morbid place to be. It is they sit there and just nearly cry about the spilled blood of Jesus and the sins that they cannot get rid of. It's about the same thing every single week. It's and they vary. Like they don't believe that women should speak or sit through public like Bible studies or have Bible studies or teach or, you know, or any of these things. just they and they believe that everyone who is new to the Plain with the Brethren should sit in the back and be called the unlearned they and they they they kind of two branches one the exclusive and one the open and exclusive is just them families amongst themselves and they don't allow anyone in and the open is they absolutely absolutely absolutely and uh i remember sitting there one day when one of them was saying at that time i was reading at the time i was like i would like for lack of a better word i'd say partial pruders um not that i believe there was anything else to come but I didn't understand enough to be full prayerist. And I remember at that stage I'm sitting there and then one of them got up and said, whoever does not believe in dispensationalism and in the millennium is from Satan and is satanic. I was just like mind blown. I was like, man, where did you even get that? I'm sorry. And I remember after I was outside talking to people and when I said to somebody that, you know, talked about preterism and then came like one of their big heads of them sitting, so you're a partial dispensation list? I said, preterist. And he was like, what? And anyway, I tried to explain a little bit and but at the time I had already made up my mind that that's. I shouldn't be coming back. Yeah, so that was, yeah, that was an interesting time of my life. And then, when, is it, when you said you were, you know, you're, you're into conspiracies and you're sort of conspiratorially minded and skeptical, was that what that started, you know, giving you just doubts on the broader sort of Protestant base in general, or was that later? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is I started to look at where did this come from? Like how did we get to here? Who is Darby? Who is Schofield? Who are these people? Where that, you know, that girl that dreamed that dream, who does she belong to? You know, is that an authoritative person to even speak? Like, you know, and then. It just went down the rabbit hole, finding out a little bit about them. And then I decided to go back further. So, you know, into the formation and I must say, like, my husband was the one who does most of the reading or did most of the reading at the time. And he would share things with me now and then, but I go through like period of life where I'm just really, really busy and... yeah, yeah. You know, being a female, you don't have that lot of time to just sit. know, sometimes I envy guys, know, how sometimes they get that little bit of time at night, they can just kick back and read, you know. there's a I saw a meme the other week. It's like Something like the way to stress stress your wife out is you just sit on the couch and and read something Yeah, just can't we can't do that So what exactly, so what did you, what did you, what did you learn about the reformation then? So I can't tell you much now, I don't remember much, but I remember looking into it and I remember looking at, no, still looking, yeah, exactly. And I was looking at what did Luther really want? What was his protest about? And then when I found out that his protest, was about penance, is not about, he didn't, none of what we think is Protestant, in a Protestant church now, is, anything to do with Luther. And then I read a lot more about him and about his struggle with his faith and about struggle with the idea of salvation and his fear of losing that salvation was so great that it tormented him. He was he was basically tormenting himself because he thought he's going to lose his salvation at any point in time had he made any mistake with thoughts or you know and and I understand how he feels because I went through that too and I think everyone who who goes through like I don't know he does not understand salvation will have to go through that some point because the you know you it's not the fear of hell as such it's the fear of what if like do you lose it you know did you gain it what is it and his fear of Satan was so big it's consumed him and you can see a lot of his books and a lot of his writings were about it and that is why he was you know talking about you know the the just shall live by faith but it you know I think a lot of things that he said also was taken out of context. he, you know, he, when he talks about works, he doesn't mean, you know, he, we think, oh, you know, no works can lead to salvation. I mean, works are essential. It's not, you saved because of your works. That is not it. You know, that is not what the Lord said, but it's... like, this is the big, I guess, just to, um, for anyone listening that isn't getting this, this is the big thing. And I would agree with you. I don't think this was the big thing at the time of the protest, which became known as the pro, you know, the protestants or the Protestants. And I mean, if you go into a Presbyterian church today and you say, how are you different to a Catholic church that they'll say, you know, Thorsism is all about faith plus works, know, and we totally, the plus works is a false gospel and it's, you you're saved by faith. And so what is the Catholic position? What is it actually? Okay, so I am a new Catholic, so you can quote me, I'm not the Pope. But from what I understand is that the same as we've always understood, works are essential. It's not like you lose your salvation, you're baptized, you're part of the covenant. So this is the other thing about the Catholic Church, I'll just mention it while we're at it. Yeah. Yeah. which is very, very, very essential to Christianity and a lot of the churches don't get it. All the Protestant churches don't get it mainly. So you're part of the new covenant. Covenants, when you make a covenant, it's much bigger than a contract. It requires laws. It's like a marriage covenant. You can leave that covenant. Yeah. It's not, you can't stay in a marriage against your will as such, right? But once you, like if you decided to lose it, you lose it. It's, you know, like, it's not like, you know, whole thing of once saved always saved or whatever. It's a covenant. I mean, Adam broke the covenant. That covenant was with God. He put in. you know, God gave him the breath of life, made him the high priests, he gave him authority over all the animals and, you know, he clothed him in righteousness. He chose to let that go, to forfeit it. And that's the thing, you're in the new covenants. And I was reading Romans 11, which is actually really interesting when Paul was talking to the Romans and saying that don't boast against the old covenant Israel, don't boast against them because they were cut off because of the lack of their faith and you were grafted in because of your faith. But if you don't continue in good works Mm-hmm. Yeah. He that did not have mercy on them because of lack of their faith can also cut you off. So, so here's the thing that I think he summarized it really well. We're grafted in that doesn't make us, you know, untouchable. And, and I think that's another big thing about the Catholic Church. The new covenant has a shape. I love bretterism and I love that we established that the old covenant's finished. But what does that new covenant look like? It's just this vague thing of, you know, some people... Exactly, no idea. lived... The old covenant Jews might have many criticisms, but one benefit they had is they actually lived under a formal covenant for 1500 years. They understood the covenant. They knew what they were in. And I think a lot of Christians now say, oh yes, yes, I'm in the new covenant, but they've got no idea what that actually means. that mean? Yeah, like what does it look like? Who is the head of that covenant? Isn't it Christ? What's that body of Christ look like? Is there laws to this covenant? Is it just a lawlessness covenant? is there, every covenant has a terms and the covenant was signed in the blood because the blood of Christ is the blood of the covenant, of the new covenant. So when there's death, new covenant, new laws. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And who is the head of this? And we see early on the church is getting built, getting appointed. know, Peter had the decision over who does what, who says what, because the Lord said that, gave him the authority. He said to him, I'll give you the keys of hell. And he had that authority. he put his hands to impart the Holy Spirit. And then he also had to decide whether to accept Paul or not. He had to decide whether to accept the Gentiles or not. All these decisions went back to him. And then you can see all the disciples, all the sort of the big decisions, they had to be with the authority and they had to appoint bishops. and they had to choose a bishop who with one wife or, you know, they had requirements to who's going to be the bishop, who's going to do what. There was like, when do you meet? You know, and when you meet these are the conducts you do. One, two, three. You don't accept the body of Christ unless you're worthy because that can make you sick or die, which Paul did said. There was a lot of beginnings, lot of details. You could see that it was getting built. You could see the new covenant getting like, you know, one stone on top of the other, early in Acts and throughout the letters of Paul. We don't get to see the whole lot, but we can see what it's shaping up to be, and it's shaping up to be the church. And then it didn't just vanish and disappear. after that, it took over. It literally took over. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, not in, not like, not immediately, but it took over. And that I think when in all the parables that the Lord said, he's, he's always said that, um, like the muster seed will be a great tree that will take over and all the birds of the air will come under it. And like, you know, like a, a doe and it will take over and it will just keep growing. It's not to be, it's not to end. It's never going to end. Yeah. And so your view is that that mustard seed, which is the kingdom of God that was birthed in the period of Christ, it became what became what we know as the Catholic church. That was a way in which it manifested in the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I believe in that authority that the Lord has signed, it's still carried on. Yeah. Cause I think there's, mean, there's a few positions on it. and most of them are using a lot of mental gymnastics in a very awkward, right? Bit, because I agree. And I think anyone that reads the book of acts or Paul's letters, like there's, you know, crazy amount of detail and there's authority and there's hierarchy going on. Now a Catholic will say, this is the early Catholic church and we took on the succession of that and continued it. I think if there's anything a Catholic can claim doctrine wise, it would be that. was, you know, look at the deacons, look at the bishops, look at the church as being established and we've continued this on. A Protestant has a really awkward answer to how that happened because I basically, they have to somehow create some mental gymnastics to say all that was happening, yes, at that point in time. And then it just sort of stopped for 1600 years. then the church, you know, went all sorts of directions. And then when the reformation happened, then the church started to come together. But then you look at the Protestant denominations and you have They can't agree on the method of Baptist. Like they literally cannot agree on anything. and they'll say, yeah, but, but we all agree on the fundamentals. don't even know whether any of them could go, you know, say what the fundamentals are. so I think they have a really awkward answer to how on earth this detailed hierarchy turned into what we have now. Now I think the Preterist has a more solid answer on it in that, correct me if I'm wrong and you obviously know both worlds, but I think the average Preterist would say that there was a very clear mission that the early church had that came to its consummation in 70 AD and that after that point in time, we seem to have in world history lost that authority and structure and hierarchy that existed and our best explanation for that is that it was a set period in time where they needed to do something which they did achieve during that 40 year transition time. And after that, the new covenant kingdom was birthed and the need for hierarchy structures, authorities didn't cease to be a factor that that mattered. Yeah, see that's not consistent. Like how does that work? If I'm building a kingdom, I'm not just building it for 40 years and then dismantling it and just like leaving it to the wind. And that's the problem with the New Covenant. So if the church only existed till AD 70, then the New Covenant only existed till AD 70. So did that. that would take us down to Israel and Lee Road really because then did Jesus die to fulfill that and to gather his church till AD 70 and was that the end of it? Everything. Was there no more need for Jesus, no more need for new covenant, no Gentiles coming in forever or you know, what does that covenant look like and why did, I mean if it was only for 40 years really, why did the apostles die? as martyrs all that time and suffer and you know all the persecutions that they went through all the Christians that went through persecutions years after 80 70 holding on and trying to keep their Christianity and getting martyred like what is the point if that if if the kingdom was not to grow and that was the end of it and really if If the church was only a transition, it's really not serving any purpose because church is the root of Israel that had the Gentiles planted in it. Yeah. So that is the tree, the tree of life you could say. The body of Christ. So if that body of Christ and that tree of life are not essential to the world at all and they ended right then and there, then Christianity doesn't need to exist. Then I wouldn't claim, no one would claim they're Christian then. The church, if the church does not exist, Christianity shouldn't. Yeah. And that's how I see it. I know I don't articulate myself very well, but yeah. yeah, I can see where you're going with it. So, I mean, I would be first to admit that, you know, I probably hold the preterist Protestant position, even though I struggle to hitch myself to any Protestant church because I think they're all a total mess. But I also completely refute the Israel only position. And my best answer at the moment, which I wouldn't stand on a platform and argue because I'm still trying to work this out and I can see some holes in my position, which is why I'm really interested to have this chat with you, is that basically they needed to, you know, the early church needed to get to that 70 AD Parasite. resurrection judgment moment. And then once it happened, it created a new covenant where all men, all nations, all tongues throughout all time could come into covenant relation with God. And that had relevance and has had relevance for 1950 years since. And as much as it might be in cycles and troughs, there's still 2 billion professing Christians in the world today. And my answer for this really weird disjointed fact that this early sort of hierarchical and church with set delegations and authorities is that in this new covenant kingdom, all of the denominations are a feature, not a bug. And because we can look at the 40,000 denominations and say, they're all over the place, they don't agree on anything. But then I look at them and say, well, I think there's true Christians that exist within these crazy charismatic churches. I think there's true Christians that exist within these mad dispensational end times doomed churches. I think they're full of people that say they're Christians and are not. But I do think there's true Christians within them and I think only God can sort of measure the hearts of man. And I think there's true Christians within Catholicism and I think there's people within Catholic churches that are just there for the traditions as well. So that's my best answer. That's a good point, it's a good point. But how does someone join the new covenant if the church does not exist? Well, can you define church? what Jesus set up to take over Israel, the new Israel, God as in like Jesus, the body of Christ. body of Christ, yeah. So is it the body of believers? Yes, but believers who joined the covenant, so in the Old Testament, to join the covenant you had to be circumcised. So in the New Testament we see that to join the covenant there was rules. So the baptism of John was not if, it was the baptism of Christ. But that's right, but did the Gentiles have to be baptised? even though they were not in Adam. So we know that the death of Christ meant the death and resurrection in baptism. So the Jews had to be baptized to be resurrected with the Lord, but we see the Gentiles also had to be baptized. So to join the New Covenant you had to be baptized as the Lord instructed Peter to baptize in the name Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So there was instructions to baptize the Ethiopian eunuch, for example, gave him particular instructions how to do it. And he was a Gentile, as far as we know, we don't know. As far as we know, he was Gentile, but there was other Gentiles that had to be baptized. So the baptism is the new covenant. way to join the New Covenant as I understand it anyway. And then would you say like the thief on the cross to obviously Christ welcomed into his kingdom that day who definitely wasn't baptized. That's an exception, not the rule. Here's the thing, Jesus, after the Lord died, the Bible says that he went into Hades and preached to those who were not yet saved. I mean, he would, from my perspective, that would apply to him. Why wouldn't it? yeah. However, his faith and that was the Lord himself saying that to him. I think that overtakes any baptism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, all right, so let me sort of pick apart the Catholic position a bit, because I would agree with you. I think if you're gonna look at the early church structures that were set up, the Catholic has the best answer around succession of that now. But, and when I first came to faith, I was in the Catholic. I was in like a Latin mass Catholic church for six months. So I know I, and I went to a Catholic school. I didn't believe it at all. I completely rejected it when I was there, but I'm familiar with, I am very familiar with Catholicism. When my argument against it and what I can't wrap my head around is, and this is, this is one of the main things that led me out of the Catholic church. When I was first going there, I thought, well, if this apostolic succession is true, then to me it appears that somewhere down the line things, things have gone really wrong with what they've taught and what they've been doing. And, and, and I think the Protestant claims against the Catholic church around idol worship, the veneration of Mary, the papacy and a whole bunch of these other things. To me, I see no evidence for them from what I read in the New Testament. And I think you'd agree, know, what's the other one? Purgatory, a bunch of other things. And clearly there's been times throughout history where there's been some, I mean, even if you want to argue the current Pope is good or bad, I mean, I know there's a whole bunch of conspiracy. Yeah. So, so what not gonna cover him here, obviously. But I can say that I was in the same mind as you. At the beginning, I was like, no way, I am not going in there. And now why will I ever be a professing Catholic? And at one point I was like, hmm. I'm going to examine things. You know how I said I'm a skeptic, right? I'll examine things. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. mean, coming from an Orthodox, I understand, for example, the veneration of Mary. So I understand that we don't pray to Mary, we don't worship Mary, we don't bow down to Mary. And that image that you see is not Mary. It doesn't look like Mary, and we know that. And the statues. Yeah. or the icons as they call them in the Orthodox, they're there to focus your mind onto the story or onto the person so you're not completely distracted. And that's the whole point. It's that they, I mean, all the icons you go to the Orthodox Church, look at the old icons of Paul, for example. It's somebody with a round face and no hair. With round eyes and a little bit of... around the side. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the funny thing. They go, this is Saint so and so and this is Saint so and I'm like, really? And all the icons look the same because they're not actually a picture of anybody. They're just a story. And it's the same as when you see the manger. You're not worshiping the manger. It's just a story and it's- tells you the story and you look at it and you admire it and you think, wow, that's wonderful. But you don't pray to it and you don't worship it. I learned that later on. Like now that when we pray, especially the Catholic Church addresses that point where the Orthodox don't really like the Catholic Church is we say, St. Mary, pray for us. We don't go, St. Mary, please do this. Or we proceed you to, you know, we don't, go. We please pray for us. Pray for us. Yeah, that's it. So so you're asking her to see it. And that's the thing. As a praetorist, we believe that we that the saints are alive in heaven. Then they're not they're not dead people. So, you know, the person go, you're praying to dead people. But we're not we're not we're not talking to dead. We don't don't talk to the dead. And there's no more death. And there's no dead people. Yeah. These people are alive and they can help and pray for us. Just like I asked you, can you pray for me? I've got an exam coming up. Will you pray for me? And you'll be like, yeah, yeah, sure. I'll pray for you. So I don't see it as any different. I mean, it's not something I was comfortable with for years or entertained for years. For years I was like, no, I'm just not touching that part because I am so afraid of of sinning against God by accidental thought or you know thinking that I might miss pray and start asking for things of that saint. So I kept away from that. on the, just to continue while we're on it on the Mary topic, do you think... Do you accept that there's maybe some priests within Catholic Church that do go too far? Which to me is reasonable that... Well, I mean, I've seen Catholic Church where they're... I mean, the one I went to did it. You know, they'll literally march around holding up a statue of Mary. Um, I don't know. I just think it's, it may be will and intention. I mean, they're not really worshipping the statue. It's just like, the thing is once you realize what they're actually doing, what they believe they're doing, you just see it. Like from the outsider. the first point. It's setting, you think it's just setting the mind on what the focus is. Yeah. see here's the thing, the Muslims think that we worship idols by praying to a man who is Jesus. They don't understand, they just don't get it. You see, and I believe it's exactly the same. It's just they don't get it. They don't want to get it. They see it and for years I was against it. And I must say, I'm not a of the million icons in New Orthodox Church and how people almost, they tend to take it too far in New Orthodox Church, way too far. They will say, this icon had made miracles and this icon had did this. They take it a little too far. Some in the Catholic Church might as well, I don't know. yeah, that's fair enough. what about things like the... Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. So what about things like the Marian apparitions? Do you think... I struggled with for a long time and you know how sceptic I am. Yeah, because I've been to Medjugorje in Croatia and there's the statue that's got, you know, they say Mary's tears came out of it. But see, there was thousands of people that saw it, that saw the apparition, sorry, the teas. So I think we're talking about, are we talking about the, I forgot which one, the Fathomless? Yeah, that's a separate one, our lady of Fatima. the one the thousands of people saw it. So there's things like that where it's hard for me to deny because there's witnesses and there was eyewitnesses. It was in the news. It was just something that was so obvious. I don't know. I wasn't there. So like I said, I'm a bit skeptic when it comes to these things, but that does not make me deny. the truth of the Catholic Church. You see what I'm saying? if, let's say there's a king and that's his kingdom, that's his castle and then somebody comes from, know, throws some paint on it and goes, look, it's damaged, that's not a castle. I can't go, yeah, now it looks bad, it's not a castle, the king's not there anymore. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. not a good illustration, but I know the kingdom was built by the Lord and there was appointees in it and there was succession and there has to be a purpose for it that it was serving and it's still serving that purpose. And really the Catholic Church is what took Christianity as a whole world. Mm-hmm. They built churches, they went into places where there was no one and they built orphanages, they built schools. Like I said to you, think I was in one of the schools they built in Egypt. And I grew up in that school and that's thanks to them. They built that school. And that school was a Christian school who taught me a lot. the missionaries all over the world until today. And the church that it's so criticized for having money and it is the most giving church ever. Like they give to anyone and everyone. And that's what I've personally experienced. And I was told by friends many years ago, I was single when I was going through a bit of a rough time. And one of my girlfriends said to me, just walk into the Catholic church. Mm. And I said, why? She said, oh, they will give you vouchers. And she was telling me the story of how they gave her vouchers for food. They gave her a free bed and a place to stay and actually gave her furniture when she moved. That's what the church did for her when she was in need and she was not Christian. And that's the thing. really, that's, aren't we Christ's body? God's, you know, are we Jesus, the body of Christ on earth, that's what we're doing. And that's the thing. The other thing about the Catholic Church is, you know, in a Protestant world I found that we're waiting for a Savior to come and save us. Take us out of this bad world. This bad world's got to end. It's so bad, it's corrupt. It's, you know, while in the Catholic Church they're like, you're the light of the world. You make sure. that you are God's hands and feet, you're Christ's representative, you don't just act good, but you act, you become Christ, you give at every opportunity you can, you help, you, you know, it doesn't matter who you help, you're not, they're Samaritans, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a Muslim that was trying to kill you, you help them, you know, and it's totally different mindset from the Protestant churches. Well, that's my, I mean, my, my preterist mindset is that the church is the light of the world and our job is to make the world a better place for everyone. It's not a, it's not a Christian only mission. Of course you want to spread the gospel and of course you want the mustard seed to grow, but, as that mustard seed grows, you have the image bearers of God here on earth. loving their neighbors, they love themselves and loving God with their hearts all in mind. That should create a far better community and society. what, one of my biggest issues with sort of the Protestant denominations, and I think maybe this stems from a lot of the ideologies within it, is that when it is just man and his Bible, and there's a focus on end times, then that can turn into a very, very individual faith. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. think is what's the most important thing. It doesn't matter if you die tomorrow, they don't care. As long as you know you don't go to hell and to them, they think that fear is what is going to drive you to be saved. Like when I was talking about the Plymouth brethren, for example, every single week, they were like, they strike the fear. They just drum that fear. of what hell is going to be like and hell is, you know, it's fire for all eternity every single week. And I remember thinking, you know, reading the Bible, I don't remember one person ever getting saved because of fear. Yeah, spot on. When did that ever take place? spot on. all about what is available for you in the new covenant kingdom through faith. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't understand people who preach like that. Why would you? And anyway, so I forgot where I was. yeah, so I mean, the Catholic Church, for all its detractors of which there are many, and maybe that's the, I think that's the next place I'd want to go with it, gives a lot, has done a lot. I mean, there's Catholic hospitals, churches, schools, orphanages, all around the world in the widest parts of the world. Now the critics will then say, which is funny, you know, from a preterist, point of view that yeah, because the mission is kingdom building, the critics will say, yeah, there are just a power hungry organization that is building their own kingdom. And we'll point to Rome and we'll point to the papacy and the Vatican and say it's just another corrupt political organization like the rest of them and then point to things like, you know, child sex abuse in the orphanages in the schools and all sorts of other corruptions. What's what's your response to that? So there has been infiltration and that's the thing. Zionism has started early on. Zionism has been going for, I don't know, nearly since probably before the 1500s. And they're trying everywhere to corrupt the Catholic Church. The biggest, we always forget as a proterance, as a proterance we understand that, but I think the Protestant world don't understand. that the biggest enemy of the church, it was the Jews. In the beginning, know, Paul had to speak in a covered language because he would be persecuted if he said who, you know, who it was that he's against. It was the Jews that tried to kill our Lord. There's the Jews that tried to kill us. It was persecuted. Yeah. it kept going for a long time. And why are we forgetting that? And we think that just somehow magically disappeared and now we're all friends now. And that's the thing, they will never be your friends. They hate you more than anybody else in the world because to them, we are the biggest heretic. We've taken their power. You know, can you imagine some king? Christ took the kingdom from them. Yeah. some king and you go and just take the kingdom off of him and he's going to be your friend. He's going to make sure that right to the last descendant that you you're wiped out and that's what they're still trying to do even though I don't believe they're the same people they're you know people who claim the Jews but they're not. Yeah, okay, so you don't think the current sort of Zionist or Jews, yeah, okay, just converts. Yep, yep, they are. Well, no one of them can actually prove by DNA or lineage or anything. No, no. But the thing is, it's a good Masonic political move because you've got claim on the hand. You've got all these Christians that you can manipulate and say that, look, this you know all this is mine I am God's favorite son I was the first born I was here first and you are my servants and you've got millions of Christians and there is that will say I meant to that and that's the sad part is that they will sit there and take it and will be like I will serve you I will send you money I actually went to church to Protestant churches with ladies who sent money to Israel every single week yeah, yeah. you know, they're not realizing that they're actually killing Christians in Israel. The original churches in Israel that survived all these years is getting bombed. So, you know, to them I'd say, yes, there has been some infiltration. And again, there's humans everywhere. when I say some doctors, for example, did the wrong thing by you know, injecting that COVID vaccine to a lot of people who killed a lot of people. Does that mean all the doctors are bad? I'm never going to see a doctor again ever in my life. I'm just going to die on my own sickness and I'm never going to a doctor because they're all evil. I mean, you know, I'm more reluctant now to go in there, but I will still go. But I will just not take a vaccine. Yeah. It's, mean, that was a, that might've been a controversial thing to say three years ago. Now I think it's like, it'd be more, it'd be more controversial to say you're going to take them. think we're almost at that. That's right, you know, we'll leave pardoned Fauci now, you know, he's all, he's pardoned of what? We don't know what it is. yet. So would you, yeah, okay, so you'd say, so you don't deny that the scandals have happened, but it's just, yeah, yeah. remember watching, was it the Australian, I forgot his name, yes. And I remember him, I don't believe he did it. I don't believe he did it. He, yeah. And the thing is, it was after he spoke against abortion and same-sex marriage and they decided to get rid of him. Yeah. he spoke openly against it. And that's the other thing that the Catholic Church still speaks against that, where the Protestant churches just open the door wide, like the Anglican church I used to go to. Now they have a female priest who believes in whatever. So, you know, it's just all gone now. And the Catholic Church is still trying to stand against it. And that's why they're trying so hard to bring it down. And you know how many Catholics will lose faith over something like that. And they will be like, you know, if he can do that, then, you know, I can't trust my kids going to that church. And that's, that ends a generation right there. So, I don't think he did it honestly. just because of the human nature of you can see, you can tell someone's innocent when they are, you know, nearly swearing that they're innocent and they, you can tell. I don't know if you know what I mean, but as a female with a a very keen eye, I can tell. Yeah. So you think, yeah. So I guess you accept that there are scandals, but you think that they're overblown and that the critics of the Catholic Church make sure that, cause it, know, I mean, I think, I mean, you live in Australia now, extremely secular country, the average secular person and even Christian is extreme, has an extremely negative view towards the Catholic Church. I know, even I did when I was, before I became orthodox. It's because the media is owned by Zionists. That's all you see, that's all you read, that's all on social media. That is, you bombarded with that information. You bombarded with how bad it is and a big misrepresentation. Like for example, I remember when, only not long ago, when they said that the Pope decided to bless same-sex. couples and it was all over the news or nine years and seven years blah blah blah the Pope's finally accepted and then you read what he actually said and that is not what he said it's completely different and then you're like now you have millions of people believing that he actually accepted it because nobody went in to actually read the letter did they no one ever reads the follow-up stories either. Yeah. and nobody actually goes into clicks on the link, go, I'm going to read that, that, that, that, and see what he actually said. No, nobody did. And, and then, same thing when they said he's appointing gay priests, he's going to accept gay priests. And again, that's the same thing. It's not a practicing gay. That is someone who is celibate. yeah right yeah yeah yeah yeah no, this is just Zionist media trying to paint the church at the worst possible image. So for Christians, it's not really a worst possible image for non-Christians, but for Christians who believe it, they go, no, this is it for me. I'm not going there anymore. And that's the thing. I had so many messages from my friends that know I'm Catholic. bombarded me going, what do you say to this now? I'm like, just read. You know, it's... a salvation point of view, you think someone can lose their standing in the new covenant and they can lose it by faith? What do you mean? Yeah, is that what I'm reading? Is that what I'm sort reading between the lines in terms of the way you've spoken? If someone is currently in the new covenant and going back to what Lou, the sort of concerns were, can they lose their standing in the covenant? If they choose to, yes, they can. It's a, I mean, it is a bigger than a marriage, but it is a marriage. And you can walk away from that covenant and you can choose to deny the Lord. it's not, here's the thing, our salvation is different from the previous idea of salvation. Like, just let me clarify that. So just cause I'm a full-throats. So yeah, so can you, lose life in Eden? Of course you can. Can you choose not to eat of the tree of life? Of course you can. It's not a... I don't know how to explain it, but it's not something that you have and then you can live completely like an evil life and still assume that you have it forever. See, the orthodox say that you're baptized, you're part of that covenant. If you choose to repent, you don't need to be re-baptized. You can be taken back as a prodigal son as such, because you're part of that covenant. So the prodigal son walked away, did whatever he did, he was still a son. He said, I will become as a servant, but his father did not let him lose his sonship. And because he repented and he came back, he got his sonship back. So that's how they understand it. And like I said in Romans 11, like you can be cut off if you choose to not continue in faith. And I think you probably see it with a lot of people that were once believers, once participated in everything and became atheists and they don't believe in God anymore. Yeah, I had, I had Jen, I don't know if you've come across her, Jen Fishburn. Yeah, she was my latest episode. So. listened to the whole thing yet, but I saw bits of it. I want to. I'm interested, actually. hardcore atheist now, I mean, raised Christian and then sort of an active Christian, I think for maybe 15, 20 years in adulthood. And then now, you know, essentially an atheist, apologist really, yeah. And an anti-Christ, I mean, she would admit that she doesn't believe that Jesus even existed. yeah. well, okay. So I don't think, mean, if she is indeed in the new covenant kingdom, she certainly doesn't want to be there. No, well that's the thing, wouldn't heaven be hell to them? So, do you want to really be with the God you don't want and you hate? So, yeah, no. That's not how it works, I don't think. I went through a period where I believe that, I still do to the same extent, the church, as the new heaven and new earth, is the temple. that we used to worship in, know, like in the Old Testament temple. The heaven and earth where God meets people. And in a church, God still meets people like it's heaven. And you can be in heaven every time you're in church. And I do mean church building because people will be like, oh, you don't mean the church, I mean the church building. I mean the place that's consecrated for God and has the Holy Spirit and a priest praying and the prayers being said and that's God can dwell with people. You can feel the presence of God. You can be in heaven right there. It's possible and it happens every week and it's there for those who want it. And those who want to walk away, they're able to. There's a door. They can just open a door and walk away. Yeah, yeah. And if they choose to walk away forever, that's their choice. So it's like the whole thing about Calvinism and, you know, I think it's actually built on the wrong foundation. You know, there's just no foundation for the actual argument at all. So that's my view. Yeah. And do you think, I mean, you're wearing groups together and I think most of the people that hold your sort of broader biblical doctrine are not in the Catholic church. You would, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you would still consider those people to be in the new covenant kingdom. I don't know. I haven't thought about it. That's, that's up to them really if they decide to join the Covenant they'll need to join the church they'll need to be baptized properly and have the sacraments done properly because I do believe in the authority you see I believe in the authority of the Pope and bishops and the laying of hands and the Holy Spirit and that has not ceased I don't believe that has ceased so that is still going and they do need to participate in these sacraments if they want to be in the New Covenant. Yeah. What about maybe final question for you? What's your view on the current Pope? Because I know there's a lot of sort of conspiracy minded Catholics that are of the view that the Catholic church itself got infiltrated in around the time of Vatican too. And that the current Pope is sort of bad news. You don't? Yeah. No, no, I'm not. I'm not with that. I actually believe again, it's just design is in propaganda. It's not true. A lot of things that are getting, you know, put in like, what's that behind the Pope? There's like symbolic things, things that got gifted to the Pope. You know, it's just like that building that looks like a snake, you know, it does. It actually doesn't. It doesn't actually look like a snake. There's other images with a normal not narrow camera and it looks normal. You've got windows on both sides. It doesn't look like that at all. And you get the, you can see the satellite image doesn't look like that. So, so there's a lot of hate, there's a lot of propaganda and I would examine everything, absolutely everything. Because that's where I used to be and it stopped me from enjoying heaven. And I am not exaggerating when I say I feel like I'm in heaven now. And that's something I have not experienced ever before, like not ever, like not ever. And I'm just so grateful every day that that happened and that's just changed my life. So yeah, I'm just super grateful for it. I also work for a Catholic school. Yeah. Are you a teacher? no. It's like an absolute blessing to be amongst God's people. We can pray freely, we can talk freely about the Lord, we can read the Bible freely, we can quote saints, we can immerse yourself in knowledge that is, you know, true and amazing. it's, and you're around these people who have committed themselves to the new kingdom and to being angels you know how we in Prudence we talk about you know we are like the angels and you're in the presence of angels and I'm not exaggerating these people are like angels they they they're amazing they pray they teach the kids how to pray they read the Bible every single day they service and help everyone they donate they volunteer their angels. And it's like, where was this life all my life? You know? So yeah, and I let all that propaganda stop me from being part of that. And I probably regret all these years that I was hesitant. And I'm grateful that my husband made me examine these things that because every time I bring a point up, he'd be like, read. Yeah. Stop listening. You Awesome, Mitch. Well, thanks so much. You're a fascinating guest for me and person. I'm glad we've got to know each other because I'm not Catholic. I'm still not Catholic. You haven't convinced me, but I'm fascinated by your position and I'm asking questions because I really respect the way you go about it. maybe... I think there probably are. I think I've probably got some presuppositions and blind spots. So I'm glad I can examine them with you and get your perspective, which is different to the one that I've had over this recent period of time. So I've learned a bit and I expect me to keep asking you more questions. Absolutely go for it. I'm so glad to talk to you. That was very interesting. But like I said, like I'm only semi new. I'm only, we got married in the Catholic Church two years ago. Really? There you go. Look, you're halfway there. an absolutely beautiful building in Dubrovnik, Croatia. Yeah. So only two years back in, it? She is in the Catholic Church, married. we were, yeah, so, so it was like, as in like officially married in a Catholic Church. But yeah, like I said, so I'm still reading and learning myself. Like I got very little knowledge in comparison to most people. So I'm still, I got long way ahead and I absolutely love the Perts Group and I appreciate everyone there. especially the Covenant Creation Persegroup because it's more interesting than any other groups where there's not a lot of arguments there, it's more information. So yeah, so I to talk to you and enjoy your night and one day we'll see you in person.