What's The Point Anyway?
It seems like much of the Western world is lost. The interesting trend over the last few years is that more and more people are working that out.
More people have worked out that endless materialism and chasing things that never actually satisfy us aint it.
So what’s the point of it all, anyway?
What's The Point Anyway?
Episode #27 - Learning about perspective the hard way with Ryan Leaf
In 1998 Ryan Leaf was in contention to be the #1 pick in the NFL draft. In the end, Peyton Manning went 1 and Ryan Leaf went 2. Manning went on to become one of the most celebrated players in the games history, whereas Leaf was out of the game within 4 years and just over a decade later he spent several years in Montana state penitentiary.
That journey of the extreme highs to extreme lows was ultimately what was required for Ryan to build himself into the person he is today. He's now a happily married father of 2, whose answer on the point of life is to devote himself to his 4.
We spoke a lot about his rebuild over the past 10 years, where he has taught himself how to focus on the things he can control and learn to show extreme gratitude for all that he has - as opposed to focusing on what he doesn't. He speaks about his understand of God, and what it means to surrender to a higher power even if he can't contemplate who or what that is. In talking about the journey to get here, we spoke a lot about how failure and suffering can help us to gain perspective. And to top it all off, we got a cameo appearance from Ryan's eldest son McGyver who had just arrived home from school!
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In Connecticut. So just outside New York, I moved out here for Johnny's points bet. so you were actually engaged by points bet? Right, gotcha. How was that? Yeah, they're good guys, aren't they? dude that dude. That dude's got my back like nobody. Yeah. he's one of my best friends, Johnny. We got back a long way. We've owned a business together. I was almost, I was an inch away from joining Points Bet. I was about to be like their first employee and then we were sort of, I don't know, I think we were happy to sort of settle in Melbourne and we're about to have, we just got married, about to have kids and I avoided a crazy journey. It was a crazy journey for him. I thought he did a tremendous job. It sucked because I had a year left with him when he left and I loved that job. I loved it. Were you full time? Yeah, I had my own TV show with him. I was like the ambassador for all of college and NFL football and had my own show and we were doing really good things. Like we were getting a lot of attention and so hopefully, hopefully us being kind of as good as we were those two years helped him sell it for more money. Yeah, think Johnny just bought a nice house around the corner, so he's done okay, and now he's got three kids, and I think he's enjoying having a bit of time off. I think, yeah, I think he's challenged now. He's looking at a few different opportunities to get back into it, and he's like, I just don't know if I've got the motivation to do what I did again. Yep. I get that. And was that was that sort of your first venture back into the media space or not first, but that is significant one for you. Yeah, I mean, no, actually, it kind of came out of nowhere. I was doing a little stuff with, you know, the conference of my college and ESPN and some Sirius XM radio and things like that. But this was my first, this was my first stop where somebody looked at me and said, you're awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's build something together and go do it. And I just, you know. I just look for that. Like nobody else's business. I like this loyalty. I want you to have my back and and Liam Rockline, was the head of content, four points bet that Johnny had hired, tapped me and you know, we went to work like right away and we made it into something really special. Yeah, interesting. I guess, um, I mean, we'll get into this in the conversation, but a key part of your career arc, had everyone telling you awesome. And then everyone telling you the opposite. And now you, and then, then you're back, but with a bit more humility this time and experience. Yeah, it's weird for, you know, for about six months between the end of your season until the NFL draft, where everybody who you think has any sort of say in anything tells you you're the best football player in the world over and over and over and over again. At some point you start to believe them. Yeah. And it was somebody who had a pretty sizable ego going into it that Didn't help. it even more, you know? Kind of took it to out of control space. And yeah, and it's funny to see how everybody loves you until everybody hates you. And then you're just like. Yeah, and then you gotta start believing the same guys, You believed them when they told you you're good. Yeah, my dad told me a long time ago, like, if you believe all the good stuff that you hear about, you got to believe all the bad stuff. So you just don't believe any of it. And I think I got lost in that for a little bit. You know, but it's just, you know, no one expects to become, you know, the this this football God, you know, you love the game. I love playing I love playing all sports, you know, I was really I really enjoyed basketball. really enjoyed football, baseball, golf, track and field. It just, didn't matter. just, think I just, loved to compete. And so that's what I was always searching for. And, and, you know, the, perks that came along with it, all the money and the power and the prestige, you know, that was, that wasn't necessarily what I was looking for. But when it came along, I was like, yeah, I'll take it. I'll take that too. Yeah. Interesting. So Brian said, thanks for coming on, mate. And we'll circle back to that and your crazy journey that you've had to get here. But now you're going to mid forties and you've got two kids and you look back on a, on a crazy roller coaster of a life as you sit here today. And I asked the question, what's the point anyway? How are you answering that? I'm answering, what's the point? The point is the four of us. That's all that matters. That's the point. I'm so glad I didn't have kids before I figured that out. So I wake up every day and choose to be gloriously happy. Mm-hmm. No one, and I mean no one can take that away from me, ever. That's the point. I understand the things I can control. My attitude, my behavior, and my effort. Those are the only three things I can control. I can't control what anybody else thinks, says. And so I wake up and I choose to be gloriously happy and I look next to me and there's my wife and I know with the little technology these days, the two monitors sit next to the bed. We got the same ones. two kids sleeping, you know, peacefully. I'm like, you know, what, what else could you ask for? What I mean, what else is the point to all this, you know? and so then everything I do from, from that point on, when I wake up until I put my head back down again is about, you know, serving others and, and, and making it, for my family. And what's ironic about it is when you make it about somebody else, your life usually gets better. Yeah. that was not how I thought it had to go as the narcissist, you know, growing up where it was like, to make my life better, everything had to be about me or what I got out of it or, you know, everything, what you could give me. And so that's been a shift, you know, at 48 years old, you know, playing football is a lifetime ago. You know, what's the point is what I just told you, what I get to do every morning. Awesome. Have you thought about the philosophy around all that? Like why it is that focusing on others and having a what's the point being your family, the four of you is so much more fulfilling than individually. Like I noticed you spoke about the things you control. It sounds quite stoic to me and that's probably, I mean, I've certainly delved into stoicism and. you know, the circle of control and the circle of influence and there are things outside of that that you can't control. Where are you at in terms of how you think about these things philosophically? Yeah, I don't probably delve too deep into it. I understand that there's, you know, I'm not religious per se. I'm more of a, I have more of a spirituality aspect to it. I know there's a God and I'm not it. You know, it's the simplest way for me to break it down. Otherwise I probably shouldn't or wouldn't be here right now. So there has to be something bigger than me guiding that. And I let it. I don't try to understand it, why necessarily something works. I just do it. In these last 10 years, and that's where I think the line of demarcation for me is, the last 10 years, that's been the answer. And it's... It's funny to think with like, life is life and life is hard and life isn't fair, you it's really about how you deal with it that matters. so regardless of, of any sort of stressors or disappointments or things like that, that crop up now. you know, I have a perspective that's different than most others. And so I just kind of go, you know, it could be worse. And if it could be worse than I'm, I've got it better than anybody right now, you know. And so I tend to just look at it that way. And it's, that's, it's a mindset thing. It really is. It's a choice on how to do it. Cause you can get bogged down in, in, in things that, that could be bothering you and, and disappointments because they'll still exist and judgments of others and things like that. But again, I mean, if you realistically look at what I talked about and the things that I can't control any of that stuff. And since I can't control that stuff, it is absolutely pointless to even have a think about it. You know, it's it really is, you know, let's, let's go, let's go do something positive. Let's Let's put all our effort into doing whatever we can in this moment. Have a good attitude, which results usually in good behavior with that. And it just clicks. It keeps going. you and I just talked about this real cool job I had with Points Bet, working with your friend, Johnny Akin. And I loved it. It I was just, it kind of came out of nowhere. gave me and my family everything. It moved us to the East coast where we got much more land for our kids to run and I mean just it set us up and I don't know if know I don't know if Johnny fully realizes that I've told him but I just I don't think he he he may fully understand what it meant to our family and everything like that so but that ended and I was incredibly disappointed right even the new company that bought it like I had a year left on my contract And they chose to buy me out of the contract rather than have me just keep doing my show. And I was just like, well, you're you're paying me. I really like doing the show. I do a really good job at it. Let's just keep doing it. And they're just like, nah, you know, we wanted the they wanted the licensing. And and so I was really kind of disappointed and distraught. And instead of focusing on that, what I focused on was I was home for the first nine months of my baby girl's life. And I wasn't for my sons because I was out there hustling, really trying to support the family and everything like that. So I was home like every day she saw my face, whether that was me getting her up feeding her at night, whatever it was, I couldn't do my show. But I was with her, you know, every single day. So it ended up having it's really how you choose to, to walk through it, to behave and how the attitude follows and the effort you put into it. You know, now, you know, now I'm just now she's, you I'm a, you know, she's got me wrapped around her little finger, but I'm okay with that. Absolutely. Has that been losing that points bet job? you talk, you know, you're essentially 10 years into this sort of transformation and new way about looking, new way of looking at life. What have been, is that the first major challenge that's come up in that period where you've had to implement this new worldview and perspective on life? Or have there been other big challenges? Mean Any time there's like some something really big where it's like a job and like financial to the family and everything like that So it seems like the bigger of the the things but for me The practice of it on some of the simplest things is What allows for something when big something like that big happens for you to walk through it in that way? know, whatever that's look like, you know First off, early on it was, well, your listeners have no idea really. So I spent three years in prison. So when I walked out... you know, the morning afterwards, I woke up in a real bed, which so I was really grateful for. You know, I was living at my mom and dad's house as a 38 year old man who was once a millionaire football player living in your parents' house after just walking out of prison. Your ego is not in the greatest of places, but I was grateful. I had slept in a good bed. I was, you know, home and, and I woke up in the next morning in my hometown newspaper. There was a cartoon. And it was a goofy kind of picture of me. But the blurb said, lock up your medicine cabinets, Ryan leaves out. In my hometown newspaper. And then my immediate reaction in that moment was like, yeah. Why, how did I forget that this is how everybody views me? This is what it's going to be like the rest of my life. What's, what's the point? mean, so there was a real come to Jesus moment in that. My first reaction as a recovering drug addict and the reason why I was in prison was to find that drug of choice and numb myself. I don't want to feel this way. I hate feeling this way. I never want to feel this way again. And so that was my first initial reaction. And instead, I went down to the homeless shelter and I started to volunteer there. and I would sit down and just listen to the guys or gals talk to me. And I didn't feel like I really didn't did anything big. Yeah. I most the time I just listen to them. And these are individuals that just don't feel seen, don't feel heard. Yeah, and they just don't feel seen or heard. And that's all I really did. And I could see them get better. And then also I was like, you know, one of the guys who was homeless, like I had perspective. I'm like, he doesn't get he doesn't have a place to sleep tonight. I have a bed to lay my head down. Like you started to have kind of perspective around this stuff. So what? You know, your hometown newspaper made fun of you. Yeah. Okay, you know, it's going to be like that. You got to walk through it, find a way to walk through it and do something different. So that was the first real start. And that was the day after I got out. And there's been many of those moments along the way. So, and I think it's prepared me really well for when that, you know, kind of job of my life disappeared to, to, understand it and feel the disappointment that I was having. liked the people I worked with. I loved working for Johnny. Especially because he just like I said to you before the dude it dudes just got my he had my back like through everything And when you find that when you find true loyalty for somebody who didn't owe me anything like he'd never met me before The disappointment was real so I had to figure out a way to walk through it in a positive and healthy way And that's and I've tried to do that, you know, I've tried to do that and kept climbing and doing the things I love to do. But he gave me a real opportunity. And that also showcases with content that other people can look at now and go, this guy can carry his own show. He's really good at handicapping NFL and college football. so that's opened some doors for me there in other places too. But I think it just goes to show what happened on day two. is the same way you deal with it on day, know, year 10. If you do it in a healthy, positive way, usually you get a positive result from it. Yeah. What was the turning point, Ryan? So it was my understanding probably it was whilst you're in prison that you start to have this shift. Well, yeah, for like 26 of the 32 months I was incarcerated, nothing changed. You wouldn't even recognize me. was like, had a beard down to my chest, hair down to my nose. It was like 325 pounds. I don't know what that is in kilograms. Yeah, I was a big boy. Six foot seven, 325 pounds. angry all the time. Yeah. you know, and not really moving towards any sort of answer. And my roommate, who was a Iraqi Afghan Army veteran. kind of confronted me one day in my cell and told me how much of value I was to not only the other inmates but for when I got out that I had my head buried in the sand and then he suggested we go down to the prison library and help prisoners learn how to read who didn't know how to read so that would be the first now I've had many of those opportunities in my life, coaches and mentors and people who've tried to write the ship for me. So I can't tell you why in this moment, I actually kind of listened, maybe because the substance that I was addicted to, which was opiate painkillers, hadn't been in my system for 26 months. And so my head was at least a little clearer. to the idea, but I was still really like childish and in my attempt, you know, walking down the hallway to the library for the first time, thinking this is stupid, this isn't gonna help me and like, doesn't he know how important I am? The guy in the red jumpsuit in a prison still thinks he's important is the problem with that line. So I walked into this room and there was these, you know, middle aged men in a place where you're supposed to, you know, not show any kind of transparency or vulnerability because that can get you hurt or taken advantage of. And a guy came up and asked me for help. Never had learned how to read it, faked it his whole life. And that's where it started. I, listen, I'd love to tell you that I just, this was the epiphany. Yeah. But you just, you don't realize it while it's happening. makes more sense. Yeah. back on it and go, okay, that that was a turning point when you started to figure that out. And so where I did start to notice it was probably and listen, if I didn't go back, like nothing would have changed. Like, there's a consistency to to this process to right, you have to be consistent with it, you have to show up. I liken it to going to the gym, you don't go to the gym one day and the next day you wake up and look like the rock, you know, it, yeah, you have to, you have to put put in the effort or Australian for you guys. You don't wake up and look like Chris Hemsworth, know, as Thor. And, and so you know, I just kept coming back in a month or so past and I realized I was sleeping better. I was more personable and I was I was actually talking to my family. And those were three things that I hadn't probably done in a decade. Hmm. And so that was the shift and that was the change that I understood. I was being of service to another human being for the first time in my life. And so that shifted. So I knew when I got out, that was going to have to be the foundation of it all, or nothing would change. Most likely I'd be back or dead actually. And so I can look back now and go, okay, that's it. But the reason why we're talking now 10 years later is because I've followed up with that. been the true north of everything over the last 10 years is be of service to another human being, remove yourself from the equation and things tend to work out pretty well for me. And so that was the turning point. can look back on it go, okay, that was it. Didn't know it, but I know it now. Yeah. How much longer were you in prison after that point? Yeah. Okay. So it had given you a bit of a, a bit of a period to prepare for that. finals six months out of the 32. That well, it allowed me because I was I kept denying my parole. I could have been out after nine months. And I kept denying it because I was so miserable. And I was so and I felt like that was some sort of control I had like I'm deciding not to get out. And so, you know, soon as I kind of gave up the control of anything. When my parole came up, I didn't deny it. And they granted me it immediately, you know? you know, I was in there for 32 months. You know, I've spent about 10 years and four months now outside those walls. And I ended up kind of getting the life of my dreams because of it. So it's... It's odd. Thought football was going to be the reason why I would get the life of my dreams, but it turns out it was a nasty drug habit and going to prison. So who would have figured? exactly. I mean, I mean, it's a consistent story through history and through people's experiences that we learn so much about ourselves and most of the good comes through the suffering, which is sort of paradoxical to what we would think, which makes me want to sort of circle back a little bit. You know, 20 years earlier, we've spoken about your journey afterwards and yeah, there's people listening to this that will know you well. And there's people who'll be like, never heard of this guy, but I love his perspective on life. In your early twenties, you're a football star and you're spoken of about who's going to go pick one in the draft, you or Peyton Manning. Now, if I'm in my early twenties doing this podcast, I'm probably thinking, Hey, I'd love to get Peyton Manning on the show, know, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or these stars. Now that I'm a bit older, I'm like, I'd much rather chat to Ryan Leach because I love hearing about the sufferings and how that makes people and how that creates such a better answer on what's the point anyway. I love hearing the people that have sort of been to the bottom and got back out of it. Do you want to give a bit of an overview of what your life was like from the so-called peaks in your late teens, early twenties to how you ended up in that prison shell? That guy, yeah. since I was that guy, they made little action figures of me. That's how crazy big I was, right? I mean, I was never supposed to make it there. I'm from a really, really small town in Montana, which is a state in the United States. And no one's ever from the state of Montana been drafted in the first round of the NFL draft until me. And there hasn't been anyone since after me. To your point, there's more first round draft picks in the Manning family than the whole state of Montana, where I grew up. So was never supposed to get there. And then when I did, it was almost like everybody was so flippant about, he's just so talented. You know, it was easy for him, you know, and not understanding how darn hard it was to get where I got. There's a chip you wear on your shoulder. Everybody does to help fuel that. You talked about having guys on the show, having Peyton on or Tom on. Listen. You know, my final game in college was against Michigan and Tom Brady and he couldn't even get on the football field, you know, in the Rose Bowl. You know, I was probably the better quarterback than Peyton Manning coming out of the into the draft, more talented, you know, did did more with less in college. And and so all of that was was true. And in what you've seen with Peyton and Tom is they've they've invented suffering in some ways for themselves, right? They gone through different kinds of things. The, the comeback from the neck and Peyton's scenario, Indianapolis giving up on him, him going to win a championship, Tom being picked in the sixth round and never really thought he could do it and, and continuing to try to improve every single year to get better and become one of the greatest to ever play the game. Like all those things you create that there's a chip on your shoulder that you wear and I had it like I, and it fueled me and it pushed me to limits that I didn't think I could ever. you know, achieve getting out of Montana going to a division one college, the highest level, you know, playing for a championship, being a Heisman Trophy finalists, know, number one or number two pick in the NFL draft, all of those things. You know, the thing about a chip is if it fuels you in a way with the negativity, it can have a good outcome. But if it just absolutely swallows you whole, almost like a black hole, that negativity it can take everything else with it, you know, there has to be a point where that ship becomes, you know, absolved of you used it for what you needed to use it for. There's no benefit to it anymore. Find another one or find a way to fuel it in a different kind of positivity or goal setting. Instead, I was still just constantly driven by the fact that, you know, my upbringing in my hometown and my home state did not. They weren't very kind to me as a kid. I get it. as an adult and me ending up back in that state and victimizing the state as a criminal and everything like that. But I still can never get over how they could treat a kid the way they treated me. I wasn't what they wanted. They wanted kind of a blue collar, conservative. I grew up in the era of the Fab Five in Michigan, the five freshman basketball players, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, really Kobe Bryant at the beginning of his career. And so those were my heroes, you know, and I had a shaved head and earrings and, black socks and shorts down to my knees. And, know, my hometown and my home state always wanted a professional athlete. Instead, they got me. This is what it, what it turned out to be. And so there was a lot of shame there and shame, you know, really builds that chip. And so for me, when I got to the highest level, I that chip consumed me, the negativity consumed me. And then when others turned on me because of poor play. Mm. I immediately was back to being that child again and dealing with it in the way I'd always dealt with it. Really defensively, I don't need your help, I'll take care of it. But at the highest possible level of professional sports, the quarterback position, you can't be going up against everybody. The defenses, the media, the teammates, everybody, family, your central nervous system is just on tilt. And, and you cannot be successful at that level. And I just thought I could be. And when I couldn't, instead of saying, I'm really struggling here, I need some help from somebody, I just quit. After four years in something that I wanted to do my whole life from, you know, being this guy to four years later being out of the league to... literally five years later being in a prison cell. So, you know, it's just the irony and all that and how quickly one can dissolve into another is I think very very appropriate for everybody out there watching to know that, you know, it can turn like that. If you're not making, you know, the positive and healthy choices, you're to make negative and toxic ones all the time. But if you can be self aware, and understand when it happens, or when somebody shows you the mirror, and that was always a problem for me is when somebody would show me the mirror, I'd see the old version of me. Yeah. And that would bother me so much that that I would burn it all to the ground. And I think that's a way for a lot of people who deal with things. It's just it's almost a natural act for a human being to to be defensive, to be defiant, to try to fight back rather than to really kind of take a look at it. Maybe have some perspective and then and maybe try to adjust it or or evolve in a way in a positive and healthy way. That's just It sounds like the simple reason and in the abstract when you're behind everything and you're looking back on stuff, you can look at it go, yeah, that would have been the answer. That seems really easy. Why did not? Why couldn't I, you know? So the earlier we can be taught that I think it goes a long way. And that's what I'm trying to do with my seven year old right now. Like those three things that I talked about and control, behavior, the attitude, the effort, like that is a constant with me and him. knowing that every moment, every opportunity, every fork in the road when something happens, he has a choice to deal with it in a healthy, positive way or negative and toxic one. unfortunately, the negative and toxic one comes with consequences, whatever that looks like. And sometimes those consequences are going to be brutal. In my case, they were brutal at times. And you hope that it doesn't take those brutal types of consequences to make you take a real honest look at those things you can control. so, you know, the 48 year old dad and the seven year old son are trying to navigate that, you know, 10 years removed. So I'm kind of 10 years old myself and he's seven. So we're, you know, we're kind of in this together. What's, do you see personality traits in your son that are similar to you as a kid? Yeah, I do. see there's a real competitive streak to them, know, and, you know, when losing, there's a there's an emotional reaction to it, which I think is fine, to a point, like I do, I think it shows how, how hard you want to, I always looked at guys who didn't take losing as badly as like something was wrong with them, you know. And clearly it had its had its effects on me, it worked, right, it got me to the highest possible level of competition you can get to. what I was going to say. It's like you have these personality traits. mean, being a brash, arrogant, super self-confident guy might not be great for your people around you, but in a lot of people's ins in a lot of instances, they're crucial elements of success of a sports star. What we, yeah. Yeah. And you seem to have got, I mean, from the outside, outside looking in, it sort of seems like you. reached those peaks, then you get drafted pick two, first two games, you started, you have wins. And then I've heard you speak about on other podcasts and your third game Kansas City, the wheels completely fell off and you, and it seems like that's the first, you just never came back from that. Is that fair to say? Yeah, and it's so odd to think that one game, but it's not one game. was how I dealt with it. I didn't deal with it in a healthy way. And that just continued to, like if I would have stood up to the microphone the day after and said, even though, mean, I had every excuse in the book. I was in the hospital all week with a staph infection. I probably shouldn't have played the game. It was a monsoon rainstorm. It was a horrible game to play in. it was just humiliating and embarrassing. I've never, I just, I, to think about it, I don't know if I've ever had a bad game in my life. It was a bad game. It's a horrible game. There was so much like humiliation and embarrassment. And I had every out, you know, every excuse in the book, like all those things, your rookie moment, like it's there. Instead, I just kind of, I imploded on a cameraman. It got reported in the press. I yelled at the reporter about showing everybody what a petulant child I am. When he was just doing his job, I mean everything I could give you a blueprint of how not to deal with a situation Ironically enough, you know I started a company a few years back where we do a lot of consulting and in crisis management because When I watch people walk through what I did I I almost view it. How are how can they possibly do that? I know how they can because I did it But it's such an easy fix If I stepped in front of the microphone the day after the game and said, that will never happen again. I will work my tail off. So something like that would never happen again. I'm embarrassed. I'm humiliated. That's on me. I'm to go fix it. it just, it's nothing. That is not hard to do. In the moment as a 22 year old brash millionaire that's being judged by everybody. It was really hard. Yeah. Mm. Didn't want to hear it. man, it's so crazy to think that you are at the elite level of your profession, but you cannot function on the level of like a seven year old when it comes to emotional intelligence. It's fascinating to me. And I've studied it and I've tried to understand more about it. And I think it's made me really good at what I do now. But yeah, it's fascinating to me to see people willing to burn everything down because of the stereotype or stigma that surrounds the idea of mental health or vulnerability, accountability, those types of things. Yeah. Do you think, how much do you think, um, and also, you know, factoring in the fact that you said this son is similar to you, what was your upbringing like and how much of it do you think is nurture versus nature that led you to being the position that you were when you're in your early twenties? Yeah, it's, listen, I'm the first child of our family's generation of grandchildren. You know, mom and dad, first child, dad's a two tour Vietnam veteran, you know, came home with spit on, you know, raised three kids, built a marriage, a business, just built on character and integrity of my father. Mom's a registered nurse, delivered babies, middle of the night, her whole life, like helping people, you know, was the caretaker of four other sisters and kind of my mom, my grandma. You know, so like I don't, you're not a product of your environment. I don't buy too much into that. Otherwise I wouldn't end up in a prison cell, that's for sure. But I do get what families do in the vein of protecting or believing they're protecting. My grandfather, my mom's father was an alcoholic, but he was a really well known businessman and pillar in the community. So he was in the public eye. And a lot of times some of those public eye moments were embarrassing to the family when someone has an alcohol problem. My mom was always trying to cover up for it and things like that. So there was a lot of shame with that. And I think she saw a bit of him and me early on and she was really frightened for everybody else to see it. And so she tried to guard against that. And there was a lot of shaming that went on, not only publicly with my with my community, but I felt like it started to play out at home. Like I was kind of told I was bad rather than I did a bad thing or something like that. And so I think that's where I was kind of taught to hide or lie and keep everything secret. And so so yeah, I think there's a there's a nurture. value to that. Like most things, you're not born with the mindset that someone's different, which makes them worse or less than. It's a taught thing. And so I think there was something to that. And so my wife and I still see it creep up in me sometimes and how I handle stuff. Usually when my wife asks me questions, I hear it as confrontational. as to why I messed up rather than her just asking a question to be educated or to be informed. No judgment in the accusation. It was just a real question like, why did you go to the store after this? You know, that's not an accusation because you're lying to her or covering something up. It was just a question. Yep. And so I I've worked on that a lot early in our relationship. It was, you know, I had to really work on the fact that she's not shaming you. She's not saying you're bad. She's just wanting to be informed about something. And that's taken a lot of work. but that's, know, that's usually how I hear it when somebody is what I think is critical, which may just be I hear it as judgment and shame. And that's how I usually react to it defensively, angrily. and over the top. that's something I've had to work on a ton over the last 10 years. And it's still, you know, still something I have to deal with better. Yeah. How did you go right from, this is interesting. You know, I know there's a story, you know, when you got drafted, you went to Vegas for the night. and from, and you know, people knowing that you ended up a drug addict and you ended up in, in prison that you might, that might've just been you the whole time. But I've heard you say like, you can't blame your career on your drug addiction. Cause that didn't start till later and you actually weren't really ever a binge drinker or into any other drugs whatsoever. How did that happen? How did you go from finishing the game to ending up addicted to drugs when you hadn't been addicted or used substances before? Well, I tell people I was a drug addict long before I ever took a drug. And I think that points to it in that competition was my first drug of choice. Flat out. And so when that went away, when I left football, there was nothing to really fill that void. And there was a lot of shame and there was a lot of, you know, judgment from others. And so we were in Vegas one night for a fight. I think it was a Mike Tyson fight, actually. And it's the closest I could get to of what a game day felt like. Like adrenaline in the room, just kind of, you the atmosphere. But usually when I went to that, there was a quid pro quo with our hosts. They would give you these really good seats, like ringside, and they would usually announce your name in the audience and stuff like that. There's a trade off there. because I didn't like what came, usually what came with it was booze or something like that with me. But as a narcissist, out of the game were you at this point? I would argue about four or five months. Yeah, very recently, it was during the season that I would be playing at that moment. So there had to have been a void filled of what that was. And so I was at this fight and they were announcing celebrities in the audience and they were announcing like Dr. Dre and Tiger Woods and Charles Barkley. Place went berserk and they. announced my name and it just exactly what I expected to happen. Everybody booed and hissed. It's not like that happened hadn't happened before. I mean, when you play and you walk into an opposing team stadium, you know that that happens, but you're wearing armor, you got a helmet on shoulder pads. And you might have a saying deflecting that you could go out and play really well and shut them all up. Like there's nothing now. So my Attic brain, as I said, I was an addict long before I ever took a drug. My attic brain heard not only you were a terrible football player, but you're a horrible human being. That's just how I kind of interpret it. we would go to, we'd walk into some parties that night after the fight where there were Superbowl champions and Hall of Famers where I always felt less than and judged, scared. But I'm also a narcissist. So I'm also want to show up and show everybody that I'm still rich and famous and everything's fine, you know? An acquaintance of mine who was in there offered me some Vicodin. Now I knew what Vicodin was. I've had 15 surgeries playing pro sports orthopedically and I was given this opiate painkiller after every single one for the acute physical pain and it worked. The drugs made for a reason, right? It does the job it's supposed to. But I'd always quit taking them and start rehabbing and get back to competing. Well, those were usually, that was for physical pain. I was in emotional pain. You offered me a couple of Vicodin. I mixed it with the alcohol I was drinking that night. And I would walk in and out of those rooms, those parties, and not feel any of that judgment or fear or less than. Like, drug works for me. I've never taken any other drug in my life. I smoked weed one time when I was in Amsterdam because I That's what you're doing. Yeah. Winning, Rome. you do. I didn't like it. I've never tried another drug in my life except an opioid painkiller that was been given to me by a doctor. And it worked. You know, I didn't feel any of that emotional pain. I didn't feel anything. And I think that's what I was, I was searching for, for so long, not to feel anything. know that shame, guilt, fear, less than all of it. And so I had my answer and that was, that would be the next eight years chasing that feeling of not feeling anything, eight years of it. And when you go from making $5 million a year to making zero, cause you quit, spending the money, still pretending like you have this lifestyle. So everybody thinks everything's fine. That goes away in a hurry. The doctors that you would go to and manipulate for the medicine, they figure it out. And before you know it, I'm like I said, I'm back in my hometown where I'm supposed to be the hero. Instead I'm broke living in a one bedroom, you know, little in-laws house back by the alley, waking up every morning, you know, asking myself, do I have pills? And if I don't, how do I get them? And that was my life. And that's so crazy to think and that I was like, this is my life now. This is just how it is. You know, and so you become a criminal. You start going to friends houses, pretending you were stopping by to say hi, excuse yourself to the medicine cabinet. Ultimately, I was going to open houses. And then I just flat out started, you know, breaking and entering knocking on doors. If someone was no one answered, I'd feel the door handle. If it was unlocked, I'd let myself in. And ironically enough, kind of during that time period where no one really talked about the epidemic of opiate painkillers. Nine times out of ten, you had some sort of... Yeah. And so. Could you get them on the bl- like, was there a black market for opiates or was it- There was you could order them online. There was like a black market kind of pill mill through Florida. was Florida. There was a lot of pill mills in Florida. And that's what ultimately got me caught because I would order them COD because I was so fearful that I was going to get fleeced. They were going to send me bad stuff that I would wait till they got delivered and I would give the postman like a money order. Well, apparently our postman only gets like, I don't know, one or two CODs a month normally, and I was getting like one or two CODs a week. And so he turned me into the drug task force. And that's what I ultimately got pulled in on. You know, and they ended up saving my life, ironically enough, you know, so you know, they deserve a lot of lot of credit for this turnaround because they're the ones that kickstarted it for me. Yeah. How was it? Did you, how did you go getting off the drugs was once you're in prison, you literally just don't have a choice and you got to go to cold Turkey. Yeah. first day first 83 days while I was locked up, I was in solitary. Because it was supposed to be for my own good. They were worried that someone's going to try to hurt me because I was famous. And that had that never had that never was the case. People just wanted to know me and wanted to hear stories like no one ever wanted to hurt me. But anyway, first 83 days inside, I was in solitary and like the word the last place anybody should ever be is in my brain. Hmm. coming off drugs for 83 days. I mean, it is as chaotic as that may sound is what it is. And so, yeah, it was just, you know, cold turkey in a, you know, eight by 10 cell, just sweating it out, coming off it, miserable, you know, the things that what withdrawal feels like. you know, at some point, you know, you get past that point and gradually, you know, start building it back up. And then, you know, I didn't see I didn't see freedom again for, know, for 32 months. So when I walked out of there, it really showcased what the real problem was. And it wasn't me. The drugs hadn't been around for 32 months. But I looked worst, felt worst, thought worse, you know, I was 325 pounds about to stroke out from high blood pressure. it clearly pointed to the drugs were just a symptom of the bigger issue, which was me. And so you better fix you. And if you don't fix you, it really won't matter what the symptom is. It can be food. It can be drugs, alcohol, sex, self harm, whatever that looks like. There's so many adaptations to that foundational. If there's a problem there, you'll manifest a way to make it worse. Did you go through, you know, I've heard you talk about higher power, which I know we've spoken a lot in sort of, that's, you know, through the AA programs. Did you go through any sort of structured programs to build your way out of this, or was it all just yourself? no. mean, like, you know, AA has been a huge part of it. That fellowship is just the guidance. Mainly, it's early on, it was my higher power, you know, because you're just, you're looking for whatever God is. And I remember a guy telling me that that God was an acronym. It was G-O-D, group of drunks. And I like that. Like, if I had a problem, I went to them. Yeah. to the people that had been through what I'd been through, overcame it, and found a way to live a peaceful and chaotic life. And that's all I was searching for. And so that was the answer. So for the longest time, that was my higher power. Since then, it's become nature, the ocean, these things that are just so much greater than me. If you want to feel small or understand how small you are, go walk out in the ocean. Yeah. and see the movement and see how quickly your life can be tossed aside by this nature that exists around you. And so that's kind of become the, and so I use golf in that a lot, because when you're playing golf, you're out in nature for four or five hours and the trees and nature and everything like that. And that really kind of started to be the catalyst for me. You know, everybody always has, you know, their religion and the way they want to bring it to you and everything like that. And I always am like, yeah, I get where you're coming from. That's what works for you. That's awesome. I'm so happy for you. Keep doing it. You know, I'm going to keep doing what works for me because I don't know how this works. It just does. And I'm not going to, I'm not going to, you know, up in the apple cart on this deal, right? Like it's just, this works for me. I'm not harming myself. I'm not harming anybody else. I'm doing the best I can for my family and for other people. And I just, you know, if it's not in the judgment of somebody else through a higher power that they choose to follow, that's not that's not a me problem, right? That's a that's that's a you problem. And there's nothing I can do about that. Yeah. Did you grow up with any sort of faith or belief or with, and... Yeah, okay. Yeah. Catholicism is kind of forced on most people. Sundays were for football for me, but church was at 11 every Sunday. We wouldn't get back till the first half was over, the first games, and the standing up and kneeling down, and the forced confessions and penance and... First communion and being an altar boy, like all the stuff in Catholicism was, you know, and I did it until I was 18. And when I went away to college, you know, I You know, that was kind of it, you know, for me. I didn't really... I didn't have time for it. Like, my mindset was to be a success. And everything I did went into that. didn't see faith as a... I didn't see faith as a way for me to get to that, right? I felt like, you know, it would be... It would take away from... You know, if church is at 11 on a Sunday, you know, I'm supposed to be in the weight room then. You know, lifting the Bible ain't going to be like lifting that bench bar. That's a different deal. you know, that that and I'm still listen, I'm still I understand that and I simplified as I as easy as I can. I've said it to you earlier, you know, I know there's a God and I'm not it. You know, is the best way for me to put it and. kind of stolen all the good parts from every religion. I read the entire Bible from front to back while I was in prison. I see the Bible as the first self-help book ever created. It's not a instruction manual, like a life instruction manual. It's a self-help book. It gives you the tools to deal with things in the best way possible, but you're going to have to make those choices. Mm-hmm. It's not an instruction manual because there's some stuff in there that's absolutely crazy. know, it's just nuts. You know that. I mean, I'm Christian. I'm also the atheist until like three years ago and get all my guests sort of different. I've had heaps of heaps of people that have come through. I, I, some have ended up Christian. Some have ended up new age. Some of, can you hear me? Oh, yeah. gonna, little man just walked in from, whoa! Are you okay? Little man just walked in from school and he just dumped it on the floor because his socks got slippery on the ground. Are you all right? Did you get your shoulder there? Okay. You want to say hi? Hey, how are you? What's your name? MacGyver. Great to meet you. The seven year old. You want to tell them what, what are the three things you can control? Yeah. Good one. Right. Good job. How's school? Good. Yeah. What'd you learn? we learned about yesterday. We learned about Abraham Lincoln. And then after yesterday, after Abraham Lincoln, we learned about George Washington. And today we learned about. Harriet Tubman. Really? Yeah. Can't wait to hear more about it tonight. Harriet Tubman was born in 1820. 1820. Yeah. That's super old. Was I born then? No. No? Good one. Not that one. All right, you're to go do some reading? Yeah. Okay, when I'm done, I'll come. I'll come see you, okay? All right. Love you, bub. Good kid. Yeah, I was just saying, my big takeaway from reading the Bible is something that I think you've sort of essentially spoken about, inadvertently through this is just the flawed character of man and how basically, you know, there's no good man. I heard... I remember there was a little clip Tucker Carlson was talking about it very soon. He was saying he was saying he went and read the Bible start to finish. And I love the way he spoke about it. He's like, read all these sort of so-called heroes. He's like, Abraham's off selling his sister. And then, you know, David's coming along. He's the great King and he's an adulterer and a murderer. And he's like, so whereas most people struggle, I think, look, I think a lot of people have put off from being raised super religious. I think that's a turnoff for lot of people. When you don't believe in it, it becomes useless. But a lot of people get put off by the idea that, like, I don't want anyone telling me that I'm flawed and I need a savior. Whereas you're fired, you've lived it. You know that more than anyone. Yeah, it's a we don't like we don't like to be shown the mirror as humans. We don't like to see our flaws like and we don't certainly like someone else showing them to us who you may actually see the same flaws in and you're going, you know, you have the gall to talk to me about this. Look at you, you know, and that's why we just you don't pass judgment on somebody else. You just you show them, you know, this is what I'm seeing, you know. take a look at it. And that's what like true friends and true people who care about you unconditionally do. And so yeah, that's hard. And I think that's exactly it. I think what they were doing and writing the Bible, they were writing the stories of like the trials and tribulations. And they're showing you these people that are going through adversity and watch them walk through it in a terrible way. and have the consequences and then dig themselves out of it to become the person they always wanted to become and things like that. So I think the writing has been there forever. think the examples have been there forever. And it's just, we are so close-minded to the idea of like, hey, if I don't have to go through the crap of it all, then I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to walk through it with everything that I can. But what I think and where you do learn the most from is you learn from the failings more than you learn from the successes. It's just plain and simple. And when you look back on it all later years in life, you're going to go, you know, if you've done it right, and if those people out there are judging you still or pointing their finger at you still, what you've done is you've failed more than they've ever tried, you know? And And that's where the resolve happens. That is exactly who I am. I have failed so many more times than you have ever tried at anything in your life, is the mindset that I go at when I find somebody who's confronted me on that, or being judgmental of my past. And I like that. I like the fact that I understand that about me. I am the sum of all its parts. I'm not just this one thing that you think of and whether you're not happy with the fact that I should be getting this chance and I found happiness from it. I think that's the bigger piece in all this is like, I can't do anything about that. Yeah. So at the start, Ryan, you, your answer to what's the point was, you know, the four and the four in your family, they're there with you now. and you look back and you know, your football career didn't have a single thing to do with that. Maybe it did through the failures, but how long did it, I'm sure. I'm sure you had a period where you left, where you were thinking what could have been, what if I did this differently? Did that, how long did that Or maybe it didn't, but if that did, how long did that persist? And do you ever, do you ever now look back and think about if things had gone differently, what life would have looked like? man, it happens in the shower all the time, right? I'm standing there, water's rolling over the back of my head, just thinking about like, what the mindset I have right now, when situational things happened back then, how if I would have taken the different path, right? What it would have looked like. Now, would have that, it's a very slippery slope. You can get rolling down a hill pretty quick on that one. I mean, how does that change you? Are you saying that I think this way then? So that means that I think it through really well that way. I don't think that. I don't believe for a second that if I wasn't taught the lesson that I was taught, that I would have been in any different sort of person. So that's the slippery slope for me. What I think would have happened if I would have taken a different path is that I would have just been a I would have snuck by, I, you I would have just kind of snuck by and went on, had a crazy cool career. Like I had my whole life, you know, 18, 20 years, couple of Superbowl wins. And I just kind of would be, you know, a 48 year old asshole with a couple of two Superbowl rings. And I don't think anybody wants to be around that guy. Football is, I mean, it's an institution in this country, the United States, it's listen. It's a silly game that we get to play a child's game that you get paid a lot of money for and it derives a ton of importance in the eyes of so many people out there. And then if in the eyes of others that you don't have a lot of success in it that you're a failure. I think really speaks to how big of a deal it is and how much I let that impact me. So so yeah I think about it but listen you know nothing's going to change. I know that it's. You can't carry it through on what that would look like. I know this though. I know that I live in a ton of gratitude for having gone through what I did. You know, I didn't think I'd ever be able to tell somebody that I was grateful for having spent 32 months in prison. You know, I'm grateful for it. I don't recommend it, but I'm grateful for it, right? And so, so yeah, I'm here. It happened, everything happened exactly the way it was supposed to happen. And I've been given everything that I was promised. And so that's, that's the bottom line. And, you know, if I'm going to live to be a hundred, then I'm only halfway there. Yeah. Awesome. Well, it's been a hell of a journey and I really appreciate the openness in which you've shared it with us, Ryan. I've learned a lot from you. Such a great guy. I love hearing the stories about everything that's got you to this point. I appreciate that. You know, this is a, you can't keep it unless you give it away. And I didn't know what that meant. And my mentor explained it to me. And he said, you can't keep this peaceful and chaotic life unless you give it away. Give away your story. And it's gonna help somebody, you know, and that's all that matters. 100%. Awesome, my friend. God bless you. All the best to your family. I'll let you spend the afternoon with yours and I'll start the day with mine. I love it. That's the way we're supposed to do it. Take care. I'm just gonna hear, no. I'm just gonna stop recording.