What's The Point Anyway?
It seems like much of the Western world is lost. The interesting trend over the last few years is that more and more people are working that out.
More people have worked out that endless materialism and chasing things that never actually satisfy us aint it.
So what’s the point of it all, anyway?
What's The Point Anyway?
Episode #29 - Delving into the Conspiracy World and Battle for Control with Jim Ateoi
I reached out to Jim Ateoi (an alias) to come on the podcast after I had been following him on X for some time and found his perspectives quite novel and interesting.
Jim is a quintessential 'truther' and he's very focused on how the world of geopolitics and culture comes together, and he has strong views on the power structure that are the 'apex players' as he calls them. I love a good discussion on conspiracies, though I usually find myself sitting somewhere in the middle between normies who follow the evening news and people who believe in a lizard race that runs the world. We had a good chat about whether we're living through particularly interesting times, or whether groups seeking dominion is just a phenomenon thats existed since the beginning of history.
Jim isn't Christian and doesn't hold to any particular religious world view, so it was great to have a guest on who I agree with on a lot, but whose perspective is driven by very different influences to mine.
As I learned in the conversation, Jim is a computer programmer and you can certainly see his analytical and methodical mind at work during this chat.
You can follow more of his work at https://leagueofrealpeople.com/
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this your podcast or are we doing some preliminary discussion? Yeah, this is it. This is the, this is the podcast. So, yeah, if you're happy with that, so look. in Texas myself. I'm in the Chicago time zone, but I'm in Texas. Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Yeah, so look what I do for the have you listened to any of the other episodes? Yep, perfect. So you sort of get the gist of it. I never script I never script them or sort of plan them. just let them let the conversations go wherever they wherever they want to go. I'll ask you the first question. What's the point anyway, which really is you just sort of giving you a high level overview of your worldview and what you think we're here to do. I'm looking forward to having you as a guest, because I think you bring a new perspective. I've had truthers, but I've had sort of mainly probably Christian truthers, if I've had any. And then I've had normies, I've had new ages, but I haven't probably had anyone that fits in your category. I think that's probably true. I haven't found anyone that seems to quite agree with me on everything or even even close to everything. I don't really find any category that I fit in so far. There's a lot of categories I don't bristle at, but they're still not very descriptive. Yeah, well, I've been, I mean, I've been following you on X and sort of, it's interesting, because I agree with you on a lot. There's a bunch I disagree with, but you know, like, I'm Christian, I don't think, I mean, I don't think you are. I'm interested to sort of dig into that question about where your faith is. Sure. Do want me to answer your main question first? Okay. Let's go, what's the point anyway? And then we'll work backwards from that trying to reverse engineer it, Jim. Yeah, there's plenty of tangents we can go down. I'm sure we could talk for hours. So yeah, what's the point? Like, why are we here? What's the point of life? What's our purpose? So yeah, that requires a multifaceted answer for sure. Well, let's start with what we know for sure. Okay, we know we exist. We know we have certain mental and physical attributes. We know our genes compel us to survive. almost as compelling as to reproduce and to take care of our families and our tribe. And I guess almost as compelling as that is to take care of our immediate environment. I could go into a lot more depth, you know, these are genes we inherited from back when we were animals. We've barely touched upon what I've called the soul of animals, which is the peak of animal evolution. Nor, I guess nor have we talked about the complimentary roles. in the genetic programming of men and women. That gets pretty interesting. But let's get to what you really want to know, which is what's the most in line to answer to what's the point? Mm. So apart from sex and food and all that. So the short answer is that for each of us, that's for each of us to answer for ourselves. That's not super satisfying, is it? So most, not all of us carry the genes of the soul of humanity, which I call it. And we live in the same universe. So my answer will probably speak to others. It may even be universal. Yeah. So a more satisfying answer, think, is that we live in a universe full of beauty and wonder. So as I say, how can we feel anything but gratitude for having had the chance to leave the universe better than if we had never existed? Mm-hmm. An even more satisfying answer, I think, is that the point is to become the best version of ourselves. And if one is on the path to becoming the best version of oneself, then one is leaving the universe better than one who never existed. And at some point on the path, I think, we will all discover an even greater point to it all. You will discover that you love everyone. Which means you'll... make personal sacrifices to help everyone else become the best version of themselves, you'd be willing to do that. And love is thus an act of creation. Mm-hmm. Those of us who love are creating the kind of world that real people want to live in. NPCs create like animals, real people create like gods. However, everyone is being played. And I talk more about this, unfortunately almost, but I talk more about how we're all being played than almost anything. So the, what I call the apex players are trying to turn us into the worst version of ourselves. And right now they are winning. And so a big part of helping others to become the best version of themselves is to expose the apex players who are trying to make us dislike, distrust and distance each other so that we're looking at each other instead of looking at them and so that we can't unite against them. I guess that pretty much answers your what's the point question. Which direction would you like to go? Well, it's a really interesting answer because you say some things I agree with, you say some things I disagree with, but I would say we probably agree more than disagree. But what I find interesting is how you and I can see things quite similarly and yet we've ended up with quite different, broader overall worldview. I mean, I know you're not Christian, you know that I am. I'm sort of, I'm a bit of an outlier in terms of traditional Christianity. I sort of disagree with a lot of it. You spoke about evolution. I'd love to touch, love to talk a little bit about evolution because I don't necessarily, yeah. Christianity. I don't know that it's going to be true in everyone's opinion that I'm not a Christian. I do not call myself a Christian. I used to be in several ways. I do consider Jesus to be the ultimate role model. I see him as my ultimate role model. He's better than the best version of myself. That's what I aspire to. But to be honest, I'm projecting that onto him. So. That's really not what Christianity is, suppose. It's a kind of Christianity. There probably were other factions in the beginning like that. I don't know. But there are certainly many, many other kinds than now. Like now Christians say you have to believe Jesus is God, the creator of the universe, to be a Christian. And a lot of Christians didn't believe that in the beginning. And I don't believe that. I don't really have any truly supernatural values that I find compelling that are supernatural. But I'm very open-minded to that kind of thing, But go ahead. Do you believe you believe Jesus to be the ag real historical figure? I'm about 98 % sure of that. Yeah, that he really existed. I was only about 70 % sure. I've seen some pretty compelling arguments that he didn't exist, but then I've seen some pretty compelling arguments that he did. Then I learned a lot more about ancient documents. And then I even discovered, according to the Mormon database, I am descended from Jesus, if you can believe that. So all of that tends to make me... more likely to believe that he really existed. But I still see him more as someone who was super enlightened than God. What do you think is the most compelling evidence that he does? And then what do you think is most compelling evidence that he doesn't exist? most compelling evidence that he does exist, I guess, is that there is a lot of documents which talk about him even going back to about, about a hundred and, the earliest documents with which we have physical copies are only about 150 AD. So it's always possible the Romans or somebody started creating documents then and they manufactured that. And there was another guy named Apollonius back then who had a very similar story. perform miracles. A lot like Jesus. He came along about 50, 80 years after Jesus. some people, there's a big argument back then about who's better, Jesus or Apollonius. So the Jesus faction won. And obviously nobody talks about Apollonius anymore. And Apollonius was more of a science philosopher type, but he supposedly performed similar miracles. had a similar life and I think he was even supposed to be born of a virgin, things like that. So a lot of similarities. And so it's possible that when the documents we have were creating a figure of like that based on him, he's very well documented. he's more of a real character according to documents. We have documents going all the way back for him. And that's a little more convincing, but still it's not necessary. And as I said, I don't. really believe the supernatural parts, the miracle parts. I just haven't seen compelling arguments for that. Yeah. So you don't, you don't hold to the view to the resurrection view. No, and any of the miracles that back then, of course, it was considered normal, like all Romans and pagans, everyone believed that there are miracles, there are people who have certain levels of divinity, there are many levels of divinity, there are multiple gods. And by about 200 AD, they even believed that the gods are not like we see on TV, they're not emotional, they're above all that, they're more mature and not petty. Even the Roman gods like that's how they began to see them by that time. that's but they still believed in the miracles and they didn't really have the virgin birth thing typically and But they still believed in resurrection they believe that somebody could be half God and they believed a lot of things that So so Jesus was not something they would balk at it was like right in line with the kinds of things they believed from other religions to Yeah. How would you say, how would you articulate your understanding of divinity and supernatural? Like, you believe, is there such thing as the idea of God or, or is that a, do you think that's a construct? what I've lack of what I've seen I guess is more important is I haven't seen anything that truly can't be explained whenever I do my due diligence I can either explain it or see that there's no reason to Say that there's a supernatural explanation that I mean there may be a factor But we just don't have a strong reason to say that for example with is there an omnipotent omniscient God that created the entire universe and he has a personal relationship with each of us. He cares about each of us. He's watching each of us. He loves each of us. I see no evidence of that. mean, there might, the universe got here somehow, obviously. maybe there's a creator, maybe it's a simulation and the creator is a programmer, but that doesn't mean the creator necessarily is even aware of each of us or cares about each of us. It doesn't mean that. And I don't see a lot of evidence that that's true because it seems like we evolved naturally and... that pretty much explains it. the creator could have just set all that in motion and be pretty much hands off. a little bit like the dayest view, isn't it? That, yeah, there was a creation event and then the earth sort of looks after itself from there after. Yeah, so I think there's a lot of ways to look at that. I mean, you could think of it as a simulation in which for it to be a useful simulation, the creator of the simulation probably isn't just doing it for entertainment. They probably are trying to learn something. So they would need for us to be like them. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a useful simulation. And they would need for us to be in a situation, really somewhat similar to theirs, so that they could learn things. So for example, sometimes I like to imagine there's this resistance to the apex players in the outside universe. And they've created our simulation as a way to see if we can figure out a way to get out from under the thumb of the apex players, how can we beat them? How can we end all this corruption, all of this manipulation and this tyranny? So that... It's more of an amusing thing to think there's lots of other possible reasons too, but that's that's a possibility In other words for what happens for us in a thousand years might be one second for them Yeah, yeah. And so by the sounds of it on this, you're not like, it seems like you, you, you have a clear category of things that you're not dogmatic on. You're, you, you accept that you're purely speculating in that realm. Yeah. Yeah, I try to go with what the that's a thing I try to emphasize so often to people that they just don't get, which is most people will agree that's not usually black and white. It's not usually zero percent or 100 percent. But yet they don't get the in-between part. It's like everything has a probability of being true. So is it 60 percent, 10 percent, one percent? Why? So do you have a good you need to develop an instinct for that? That's I think what a good scientist does is they have a feel for the probability of things and That's where a lot of people really fall down. just, they tend to fall into a category where there is certain or they're not. And as I like to say, certainty is just an emotion. So that doesn't mean much. You feel certain, sure. But that doesn't mean it's true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, two people can feel certain about things that completely conflict with each other. So they both can't be certain. Yeah. And I would agree with that. And I think a lot of, um, a lot of Christians and a lot of people with different religions make really bad arguments saying, I know for sure that this is true when the reality is I think, oh, yeah. I like to help people make their best argument because I don't want to defeat their current argument if it's bad because I'm not really winning anything in that case. I want to help them make the absolute strongest possible argument for their case. And then maybe I'll agree at that point or maybe I'll then I'll try to defeat that either way. And sometimes I agree a small percentage of the time I conclude, they're right. They just can't make a good argument for their case, but they're right. Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of, you know, we use the term like truthers, which has become quite popular over the last four years. And I think a lot of truthers miles off the mark in terms of what actual truth is anyway, but it's certainly become a topic and there's there's hordes of content online about it with various truthers trying to essentially trying to explain things. Now, a lot of Christian truthers will heavily criticise the view of what they would call scientism and evolution as saying that these are just tools that have been created by these apex players to distract people and hide the identity of God from them. Now, I'll be honest, don't really hold to... view of evolution, but I'm not dogmatic on it because I take the position that the Bible doesn't speak about any sort of material creation. don't think it's, I don't think it's interested in it. So if evolution is true, I don't, I don't think that's a debunking of the Bible. think Genesis is. Yeah. ways I could explain that evolution and the Bible could be true. I'm, I listened to a podcast recently with a guy, John Walt, and, I sort of hold his position and had a couple of guests on the show that hold the same that it's the, the, the Bible is talking about, you know, it's like, if you talk about the creation of the United States of America, you talk about the, you know, Delegate Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the founding fathers and how that was all created. And that's a story of America. It's not telling a single thing about how the the rocks and the landscapes and the water all came together. And I think that's the same thing with what the book of Genesis is saying. But a lot of Christian truthers will criticize that view of evolution and scientism, what they say, and the need to scientifically explain everything, which is sort of the view that you hold. And yet you're very anti, and you spoke at the start about calling out the sort of apex. rulers of the world. Talk to me about your view of what's happening at the top level. Like, who are these people? What does it look like? How does it manifest in the world? Well, I think what's going on is there are folks at the very top, probably several thousand, probably ancient families. I've even seen analyses that are fairly convincing that explains the top families of about six ancient civilizations, Egyptians, Hebrews, Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Phoenicians joined forces about 1600 BC, and that's when it really began. But I don't really... think that's necessary because we can see now the effects in several ways to prove that they exist. And then also because of that, we can see that to reach that level, they have to have existed for a little over a hundred years, I'd say at a minimum, just the absolute most happy path, successful path to get to where they are now. They'd have to have existed for over a hundred years. So kind of a minimum of two or 300 years would be necessary, which is about when the Illuminati were created. I think that's maybe a coincidence. So. Sorry, you're saying that have to have existed at least a hundred years from today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. takes a period of time for that to actually be. Yeah. explained some of the mechanisms by which they would have done it. that's, that is, I think, if you look at some of the results, it's only explainable. Unless you start invoking the supernatural, you would have to say there's a globally dominant cabal that's above all others. Even if you say there's multiple factions at the top and they're competing with each other, that's... still doesn't explain unless they have the capability to ally with each other and have a global effect, a unified global effect, in which case from our perspective, they might as well be the same, Kabal. So not sure that matters, just like it doesn't really matter if they're 1600 BCs when they formed. We can see what they're doing, we can see that they exist. That's kind of enough to go on. And at that point, the goal is to not let them play us. And I call them Apex players because They're players. It invokes the term apex predators, but that's too respectful. They're apex parasites. They're not apex predators. They manipulate, they hide in the shadows. They're not predators. They're players, they're manipulators. And in many ways, they're parasites. So either way, apex parasites, apex players. And I'm sure they don't like that term. I think they probably see themselves as not like gods among men but as as yeah not not probably see themselves as the smartest but they certainly see themselves as deserving like well somebody's going to do this somebody's going to rule the world so it might as well be us we're going to be better than these other people i'm sure they can explain it and rationalize it in many ways that they see they're not so bad and and i suspect they even are disgusted by some of their frontmen like a lot of billionaires, CEOs, presidents, a lot of these people who are very greedy and addicted to sex or even pedophiles and human trafficking and these kinds of things, they might even be disgusted by these people that serve them like that. And these people who serve them may not even know that these guys are at the top. They may not even be aware. They may just be the kind of person who is able to play a role that furthers the overall agenda. And of course, the overall agenda is total global control. Mm-hmm. It's always about control. So even at the top, I don't think it's primarily about money, even though banking is very important to them. It's not primarily about money, it's primarily about control. Right. And I think some things they want to do is that they want to have the kind of power, because for one thing, they're scared. There's a lot of us. And if we come after them, they're probably terrified that we're going to hunt them down or something like that. So the more enlightened we get, the more aware we become, the more of a threat we become. So they of course have to play against each other, much like the British Empire did, like with India and others. And they want to do things like have so much power, for example, so much control that let's say they decide they want to do things that a lot of people say they want to do, like eliminate 90, 95 % of the population, like reduce human population by 90, 95%, to where there's just a few hundred million people left, like the Georgia Guidestones once said. Yeah. Yeah. I think 500 million was the number on that. So that's only a fraction of what there is now. I think it might've been less than 500 million, like 250 million, I'm not sure. But it was a much smaller number than the number of people there are now. So if they wanted to do that, and of course if they have AI and robotics, they don't even need as many people. So they might even want less people like 100 million, I don't know. But I do think they want AI and robotics to serve them. They think that's going to work much better for them and not revolt and kind of thing and control us. And I think they, I don't think they necessarily have any kind of religion as far as I can tell. They might. I was gonna ask that. I don't think, I think a lot of their frontmen do. think a lot of their frontmen are satanic or Luciferian or various other things or various odd offshoots of religions we may have heard of. Maybe they have their own bizarre, maybe they worship Baal. I don't know, but a lot of their frontmen do. They do have these weird beliefs and religions. And again, that probably disgusts some of these apex players, I suspect. It's like, it's like these guys are serving them and getting their agenda moved forward. they're not, I don't think they're as as petty and vulgar as that. I mean, how petty could they be? If you rule the world, you can't be that petty or you would make a lot of mistakes and you wouldn't rule the world. So they can't be that kind of petty, greedy, sex-addicted kind of person that serves them or they wouldn't be successful. And I think what they ultimately want to do among other things is, well, have the kind of power, have the kind of control that would let them eliminate 90 % of the population. They're probably not sure if they want to do that, but they know they need the power to be able to do that because they might need to do that. And obviously we would fight back if they tried to do that. So they need the kind of level of control that would make it impossible for us to stop them if they tried that. So that's a lot of control to make it impossible for us to stop them. And then ultimately, I think what they want to do is travel to the stars like Elon says and leave us behind. It may be even worse than that, but I think they would like to travel to the stars and leave us behind. And then I think they would possibly, as a preliminary step before that, they might go to space, the moon, the Mars, kind of like the movie Elysium. I call it the Elysium Gambit or the Elysium Hypothesis. And then just kill everybody on Earth or almost everybody. And then they come back and now they're the gods and the pharaohs and they're the priests. They have some technology and everybody's amazed and they start over and then they can rewrite history. So I don't think this has happened before and I have a couple of reasons I think that but a lot of people believe this is already there's already been a predecessor civilization although they don't think they explain it quite like I do like the Elysium Gambit kind of thing. I haven't seen that explanation before. Right, so that, I mean, that last point was where I wanted to go, as you're saying this, is what you're describing just basically the story of human history, that groups band together and desire to rule and control the world, and they have varying levels of success, and they rise and they fall when it falls apart. And, you know, there's a new, you know, there's... chaos happens as a result, the world rebuilds itself. So I if you, I mean, I I have probably similar to you. I'm not sure I totally believe our version of world history that we've had, but if we go on that, you know, there's the message, Patamian empires and there was the major, you know, the Persians, the maids, there's, Babylonians, they wrote, they rose and fell. Then you got the Greeks, rose and fell, then you got the Romans, they rose and fell, they sort of fell in what, 300 AD. And then we've had a series, the Ottomans, the British, and now you have sort of whatever this current global cabal is. Some would say American, I think there's probably quite a bit behind that. I don't think it's really an American empire. But is, I mean, we're living through, do you think in... in your worldview, are we living through unique and unprecedented times or to the person that hears this and hears this? Yeah. Yes, we are and there's a reason for that. They've never had these kind of tools at their disposal before, like the internet and AI. Now, these tools are at our disposal too, but they're using them more effectively so far. I think the internet might have caught them a little off guard, but they've managed to regain control of it in many ways so that now they're using it effectively against us primarily. And they have tools for shaping public opinion globally now. they could have never dreamed of in past centuries or millennia. So. I mean, if you believe the official world history story, there's no way there's ever been these sort of global sort of control tools with global money. they had, I mean, they tried in the past, of course, and they had a lot of influence, but yeah, they couldn't just control everyone. They couldn't do some of the things they do now. They couldn't build narratives. Roman Empire at its peak had no ability to seed narratives and control the money supply of absolutely everyone and release propaganda. Like they couldn't, they didn't have the... but they did a lot within their own empire. They actually did create narratives to kind of pacify other civilizations, usually by trying to merge their beliefs and their religion, like global state religion, with the local religion. And they'd like pick one of their gods and merge it in with theirs and things like that to try to kind of pacify them. Some people even theorize that they created Jesus for that purpose, to pacify the Jews, and that it didn't work out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and the Romans weren't necessarily the, I think they probably were dominant at the time. And I don't know if the apex players to what extent, if ever they controlled the Roman Empire, they probably did. But still, as you say, the Roman Empire did not control the whole world and there was very limited ability they had. They could dilute their money supply, put less and less silver in each coin, which they did and cause inflation and ultimately cause the decline and ruin of their empire. But they, So still that's very limited to what's happening now. Now there's much more levers of power. Yeah, so is it fair to say that your view would say that the desire for control and power is the same as it always is, but now they have extremely powerful means to actually achieve that? Yeah. I think that's true. I think they did what they could in the past and they had a lot of influence. And I kind of do like that theory that it started with the Phoenicians and they tied it all together. But then, and actually the Phoenicians and folks from the Levant like that, they colonized that whole area like Carthage, for example, most of that island and created all the islands around and all the edge of Africa, the coasts of parts of Europe. before the Roman Empire got very big and then as the Roman Empire became pretty big and it's consolidated most of what's now Italy, then they took on those guys. they, I think they were mostly Baal worshippers and from the Levant. So that combination I was talking about of Egyptians, Hebrews, Phoenicians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Samaritans. So that, and I think the Romans defeated them. think they... I the Romans since then. So that could be what's going on. But still, that's not that important. That's just interesting. But now we can see what they're doing and the tools they have and what they're trying to do. And it's pretty easy to see why. Pretty easy to see that they exist. I can talk about some of the proofs of why they exist and what we see, the mechanisms by which they gain and acquire power, if you want. Definitely. I'd love to talk about that because then, then I think that flows into the next question I have, which is saying, well, how are they going right now? Cause I think everyone's looking at the world. Like it's just weird and it's chaotic. I mean, people have different theories, but every day something new is happening. And I've got to the poem, like what on earth is going on? So is that, is it deliberate chaos and the goals are moving closer and closer? Yeah. an unbelievable number of PsiOps going on at any given time. And some are physical ops and some are PsiOps. But thousands and thousands of overlapping mutually reinforcing ops and PsiOps. So it's just impossible to even get your head around it. There's so many. so we live in this situation where almost anything that happens, they can play to their advantage, meaning to advance their agenda, their overall agenda. So they even have the ability, I think, to do what I call the ratchet effect where they take two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back. So they keep giving us a win. They give us a hero. They make us feel like, okay, now it's okay. darn, it's getting bad again. now it's okay. But overall their agenda keeps moving forward. It's pretty easy to see in retrospect. So I think that's intentional. I even predicted about 18 months ago, they're going to the whole trans kids and this whole pedophile thing and the whole trans movement is in this. unusual emphasis on it from the top that's so artificial and so anti-science and so not relevant to the apex players agenda that is clearly a throwaway thing. It's designed to get us all riled up behind it and get us to fight it. And then they went and then we win and we're going to feel like, yay, we won. But we didn't win because now we've got cyber cash and things like that on all these other things of the agenda that actually are important to move forward. I'll say that all the time, but like, come on, like, does anyone actually think that the people that own and control the media outlets really care about the human rights of And the extreme focus on it for me is just setting up for a swing back the other way. And you hear guys like Jordan Peterson or the so-called sort of right wing guys where people are like, you know what they said is so based. They're talking about, you know, how... boys are boys and girls are girls. Like, you know, how great is it hearing someone talk about that? I'm like, come on, like that's just, that's just obvious. Like are we so, we got so crazy now that saying a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl is like a really clever and articulate and base thing to say. To me, it just seems like a way of riling people up and getting more people that are otherwise centrist and not even. not caring less about politics over to what they now call the extreme right. I mean, what's what? Yeah. is another reason. Almost everything they do has many dozens of reasons, It advances their agenda in dozens of ways. For example, COVID. I identified 60 ways in one of my articles that COVID advances their agenda. It's not just one way. There's a lot of ways that each of these manipulations advance their agenda. So what do think of some of the proofs? You know, the person listening to this that's like, come on Jim, like, you know... Apex Players, so obviously. And it's just a short article and links to some of my other proofs, but it kind of compiles four of them. it's, so my website on which this is League of Real People. So that's my website, leagueofrealpeople.com. Okay. And that even links to my old site from there. So I've got about over 300 articles between the two sites. And I originally wrote the first of these proofs back around. 2016 I think but I've more recently written about two years ago an article called they picks players that ties some of them together and The main proof I like to cite because it's so simple is tower 7 WTC 7 from 9-eleven. So the third tower that fell If you watch it just ten seconds of video clearly control demolition. There's no way it's not a control demolition I mean if you have enough experience and enough instinct for physics and You like a lot of people will Not everybody, but a large minority of people can see that and they just instantly know. They're 100 % certain. I know that's an emotion, but they're certain. And they're right that it's a controlled demolition. There's no explanation other than that. It's clearly a controlled demolition. Yeah, I was smoking a little bit, had a few sporadic fires here and there, and that's the official story. At the time I wrote that, there was no official story. But once, well, at the time I was thinking about... writing it but then the official story came out and they said it's just an office fire they call it which means it's the stuff inside the building caught on fire was burning furniture, carpet, whatever and that's it and I'm like no way that's clearly not true and then after years and years of that I guess that's when I wrote the article that okay enough years have gone by that no one has challenged that no one talks about that how does no so it's not 9-11 in tower 7 collapsing that is the conspiracy that proves it Mm. Because the CIA or any group could have done that. But how can they provide a cover up globally for all these years? How do they stop the entire global mainstream from even talking about Tower 7? You don't see anyone talking about it. I've seen maybe three people mention it that I can find anywhere in the world since then. Other than the last couple years, a little bit more people are talking about it now. But still not any mainstream, what I would call mainstream politics like establishment politicians, establishment scientists, establishment engineers, establishment journalists, they do not talk about it ever. So how is that possible? a, it's a lay down mizere if someone wants to question that and say, Hey guys, like this is, know, you're right. 25 years ago. And there was a building that just, you know, it was filled with a whole bunch of fairly important documents just fell down. You know, like this, this doesn't add up, but yeah, you're right. There's never, never once been any conversation of that. Yeah. Yeah. to say why it's not, how it fell down. They just don't talk about it. So how do you keep the entire global mainstream quiet from something that earth shattering when all they have to do is see these 10 seconds of video and a hundred million people at least have seen it and know about it and trying to tell everyone else in the world like I am. I've even seen Jimmy Dore talk about it recently and a few others and Brett Weinstein. How is it? that not one mainstream person will even try to debunk it. They won't even talk about it. I'm not sure. I don't think orders come down from the very top. They pick players to make these things happen. But that's why they're players. Players don't have to give orders, as I say. They're good at manipulating. They create the situation where it happens naturally. Like they put the people in place that know how to behave, that are on the same page as them, that play the role they need them to play. Hmm. if somebody gets out of control, there's a lot of ways they can control them with blackmail or bribes or other mechanisms. And we can get into the mechanisms they used to control them, or they can obviously just kill them if they have to. obviously, if you just go around killing everybody, that's a threat to your agenda. That itself is going to become a proof. So you have to be careful with that. And then, yeah. are far more effective. So then the other three proofs I like to mention are climate change. The entire globe is pushing climate change, which is easily debunked and disproven. And yet they're still pushing it. And then another one is COVID, obviously, easily debunked. They got everything wrong. And yet they're still saying almost exactly the same thing. They've given in about 5 or 10 % on their narrative so far. And then the fourth is a little more subtle. It's the rise of weak factions and weak narratives and junk science. like how did like trans people, for example, the trans agenda, how did that take over the world? How is that possible? That's such a weak argument. Communist Marx is such a weak argument. How can they take over everything? How can the establishment be sympathetic to these causes that are so weak? And they can't unless they had help from above because if you've already got people in place that understand science that are very You know, mature, responsible people, they're in charge. How did these people that are so inferior in their understanding of science and their understanding of history, understanding of psychology, how did they take over? How did they get to be the dominant establishment? How did they become the establishment? That's not really possible unless some people that had power helped them. And none of the people like, you people Yeah, that's BS. So how did they take over? But they did. So the fact that they took over means they had help from somebody who's not the visible mainstream, not the visible establishment, somebody above the visible establishment that can make that happen. And it took a while. It took a couple of generations, but they got there. Yeah. Do you think they're successful at the moment? Do you think they're successful at the moment in the goals that they're trying to achieve? The apex players? Yeah. Yeah, the apex players. but they're a front man. The, these weak factions I'm talking about, like the Marxists and the trans agenda. They're not, they, they've, they've taken a big sit back obviously. And the, they really overplayed their hand. And I think that was intentional. And now of course, everyone is cheering on the so-called right. So don't think those were the so- Those are the so-called left, I call them. I don't think they were the real left. There almost is no real left. But they were occupying that space to suppress the real left. just as the right, much of it exists to suppress the real right. the reason is they, let's see, you were asking, or do I think, yeah, I was explaining why they don't really have a lot of power, why they lost power. And a lot of that is because They need, I don't want to call it a pendulum swing, but they pick players need to pacify the natural resistance, I call it. So team Trump, the followers of team Trump, they're the natural resistance. Those are the people who would be willing to take up guns and defend America from tyranny, from foreign invaders. Whereas the Democrats are not going to do that. So they might do that if they're motivated to and told to. But they're not going to do it on their own initiative because of something they believe. They're just not. They are this. They're the kind of people, Democrats are Democrats because they believe what they're supposed to believe. Therefore, you just have to tell them what to believe if you're the establishment. That's why they're on that side. They're too, I guess, cowardly in many ways to think for themselves that they don't want to be socially shunned. They're terrified of being an outcast, getting kicked out of the tribe. So they side with where the side where the government has their back, where the establishment has their back. And that's the safe thing to do. And they believe what they're But the other folks, whether they be Christians or libertarians or whoever, they're the ones who are like, we're on the lookout. We're vigilant. We're looking out for tyranny. We're looking out for invasion. We will fight it. We will fight to the death if we have to, to defend our country and our freedom. And they have to somehow pacify those people. So the way you do that is you put someone like Trump in, who appears to be on their side, and They're like, yeah, he's defeating the bad guys now. So they've got this. And that's much of what they said back in Trump 1.0 with Q. They said, trust the plan, you may recall. They like to say winning and trust the plan. And what does trust the plan mean? That means there's nothing you can do. The white hats have got this. There's good guys in the government. You can't see it happening, but just trust us. It's happening. They're winning. They're in charge. They're defeating the bad guys in government. Then suddenly it all fell apart. Yeah. the bad guys won big time. It was super demoralizing, of course, to those who were following Q and Trump after that. Whereas to me, I predicted that in 2016, that Trump is a pied piper. This is what's going to happen. He's setting his followers up to take them down with him. They're setting them up for fail and it's happening again. But it may not be such obvious failure this time. It's hard to say. Like, will it be the kind of humiliating failure like before? There's a lot of directions they could go. As I say, these Apex players, almost any direction they go can be played to their advantage and work to further their agenda. I can't, I don't even think they can predict for sure what they're going to do because they have so many options available to them. They can pivot very easily now. They've got a lot of range to pivot and lot of space to work in. So they, they're not really constrained like we are. We have very few options available to us. So if you get like, I mean, if you get two apex players in any scenario that anyone listening will have been familiar with in their life, you know, whether it's two apex players in a sporting team, two apex players running a business together, you know, building something new. the human condition always leads people to essentially blow themselves up through greed, through disagreement on things. Yeah, so I'm trying to work out how they are because I mean a lot... think they're an example of why that works. And I haven't explained how they took over yet. We can still get to the mechanisms. the reason they don't do that and they were able to cooperate is an example like that, kind of a parallel example is scientists have learned we have what's called the warrior gene. A certain number of people, not everyone, but a large minority of humans have the warrior gene, they call it, because it makes you tend to be violent, makes you tend to fight. You're much more likely to commit murder if you have the warrior gene. So they found this one population, I think in the Middle East, that had a very high percentage of the warrior gene. And they thought, they must be just slaughtering each other left and right. They hadn't had a murder in like 100 years. And they're like, how is that possible? But you see, their culture, they had worked out ways to deal with that. So they just had release mechanisms, much like in prison. People call each other sir, and they're respectful, and you're super polite and respect everybody and that way you don't pop off and kill somebody because they all know that they're hotheads and that's why they're in prison and they've got to be super polite and respectful and that's how they behave. And obviously if you've been doing this for thousands of years too, you will have learned like these, we have these rules for a reason that we enforce them on each other. It's almost like their own government. It's like we have a government. It's like we agreed to participate in the system and be bound by the system because set up self-governing sort of systems too. yeah. Which is why I think a lot of, I mean, Christians are probably a key one that believe it, but then I mean, Muslims, I'm guessing are probably similar. They'll say, and I don't hold this view, I'm not a futurist Christian, but they'll say, know, all this. the exceptional level of self-governing in which these powers that they are able to organize themselves proves that it is entirely supernatural in nature. And I don't hold to that, but I do also struggle with the idea that mere mortal men can organize themselves and be successful over a period of centuries, which makes me tend to... I don't know, I maybe sit halfway between the Christian idea and your idea and that I think that people trying to take over the world is nothing new under the sun and then we go through historical periods of that happening, they have some success and they ultimately blow themselves up. So maybe we go from that to say, how did they take over? You've spoken a little bit about who they are, but yeah. to do, which I think would take over 100 years, or at least 100 years to do, and that's as of maybe 10 or 15 years ago when it was pretty clear they had fully taken over. So sometime after 9-11, it was fully clear they had pretty much fully taken over. So I think they have several mechanisms. Obviously, they have to control things like banking and the media. But really what they have to do is get people in the heads of every organization that they place there, that are the kind of people they want, or even people that understand that they're just playing that role. People who work for them essentially for all practical purpose work for them. And the way they do that is things like what I call pedo parties. If you invite Bill Clinton and some folks like that to a pedo party and you videotape them doing things. that would get them hung from the nearest lamppost if we saw the video, you own them now. They're blackmailable. So you have to be controllable to have any real power or influence or wealth, I think, in society. They cannot allow anyone to have that kind of influence that they can't control. of course, they wouldn't do anything like sort of set up a private island in the Caribbean and, and fly such influential people over there. And I mean, that's just a crazy theory, isn't it? Yeah. So I say there's never one rat. There's never one Epstein. There's a lot of these operations going on. So for whatever reason, they retired Epstein, but that was not the end of it. And what's interesting about Epstein is he was part of the flipping the narrative on pedophiles. It previously before Epstein, like before Trump 1.0, it was very clear going back to the Franklin scandal, for example, and before they Pedophiles were interested in young boys, like prepubescent boys. Like 90 plus percent of them were interested in that. Whether they were royalty or clergy or whoever they were, that's who they were interested in. And it was these powerful people, it always went to the top and these investigations would be shut down every time before they could get there. Mm-hmm. I could give a few examples of that, but. What they did under Trump, see what people now say is Epstein was pedophile island. It's like the youngest girl I think I've heard of was 15, maybe 17. So this is well past puberty and there weren't that many that were that young. There were only a handful at most that I've heard of. There may have been more. I haven't investigated it that much, but if you're going to take these two or three that have been publicly talked about that were almost 18 and say it was pedophile island. when there were hundreds of others who were in their 20s or over 18 or at least 18. And that's really misleading. And they try to portray it too. Also, you'll see that the average guy is who you got to watch out for. You'll see that a lot on TV too. The enemy is your neighbor. The enemy is your family. They're in your family. They're next door to you. And that's where the pedophiles are. That's where the psychopaths are. That's where the toxic masculinity is. All of these things you've got to watch out for is ordinary people. Don't even worry about those guys at the top. You're not going to encounter them. You've got to watch out for these ordinary people. that's what they flip the narratives where now it's not the people at the top that are the pedophiles. It's your neighbors that are the pedophiles and your friends, family, coworkers and neighbors. a, and the society stops trusting each other. And instead of interested in boys and being gay, they're now heterosexual and interested in post-pubescent girls instead of pre-pubescent boys. So they flipped all those aspects of the real pedophile nature of those at the top. And now in the minds of everyone, it's about teenage girls, suddenly, and ordinary guys. Yeah. And so, okay, so how did that take over? There's basically black, male and controllable people in all the key pillars of society. Yeah. So they can print money out of thin air, of course. So they have unlimited money to bribe people. They can give them positions of influence. And that works with people like Biden really well, for example. And they can make your crimes go away. So again, like Biden. And then of course they own you because they can release dirt on you and they keep collecting more dirt, I'm sure. So they can release as much dirt as they have to. Like with Clinton, look at what we learned about him. It was revealed that he was messing around with Monica Lewinsky, who worked for Mossad, by the way. And she, that was, that doesn't hurt anything for their agenda. That doesn't make the system look bad. It doesn't, it doesn't, it does not pierce the illusion of legitimacy, which is what they have to protect. Because if they lose the illusion of legitimacy, they're finished. So they have to maintain them. So in this case, you can have all the sexual scandals you want. It never hurts the illusion of legitimacy. It's just one guy did one thing to one person or several, and that's it. It ends there. It does not reflect on the system. So that's why it's you'll see just rabid, each party going after each other on these little sex things or big sex things. And they never go after Clinton. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So, so when you talk about the illusion of legitimacy, we, we do seem to be living in a period now where, I mean, I'm seeing it, the average person, I think has no even the average person, sorry, sees no sort of legitimacy of a lot of these institutions and we've become, I think, very nihilistic in many ways. Do you think, I mean, do think that's a deliberate sort of set up to move to some sort of new system? is. Yeah. So it's moving to a new system. So it's not nihilistic, but it is. They do have to destroy faith in the old system so that they can create the new system, but they have a multiple reasons once again for doing that. One is of course to create their new system and have people cheering them on. Like I can't get too upset with team Trump for getting rid of a bunch of federal programs and employees. It's like, I didn't want them in the first place. So. I don't like the direction they're going to end up going down eventually, but so far the beginning of it is not necessarily bad. So, and they might be a little ham handed at it, but so what? It's, I'm much more of libertarian or even an anarcho-capitalist in many ways. So I'm okay with that. I don't want them to treat the people badly, but they do need to downsize a lot. And one of the reasons is that they're doing it among many is to... get AI in charge. Obviously, you've heard that probably from multiple people. But another is that you may not have heard is they obviously need to be able to pay $1 trillion in interest per year to their masters. Now, how are they going to do that? This government's borrowing a trillion dollars. They can't do that indefinitely. if they cut down enough, they can pay a lot of interest to their masters, to the bankers that control them. So that way they can do that indefinitely if they cut expenses a lot. Yeah. so it serves multiple purposes. And what do you think's ahead? you have a positive outlook for life or does the challenge of being someone like you that studies this really deeply that you end up having a really negative outlook of life? No, I only feel negative if I don't think about it at all because then I'm, I start worrying about what's happening and I'm not doing anything about it. As long as I feel like I'm doing something about it, I'm pretty positive. And I feel like, uh, like I am doing something, like I'm making a difference. And I see even a lot of my ideas being said now by different famous people like Jimmy Dora or Brett Weinstein. It's like, I don't think they think they got it for me. I've even seen James Corbett come to a few of my conclusions. And some of these are just from a year ago and some are from 30 years ago. But I thought, well, I'm not sure how much of this is them just trying to play us. And I don't know if they came up with these ideas on their own or got it from somebody else. And somebody got them from me and then fed it to them or I don't know. But I'm glad to see what I consider to be useful, healthy ideas getting out there. A lot of times though, it's more of limited hangout. They won't go too far. But they go a lot further than they ever have before, just in the last year or two. I've never expected to see so much change like that in just one or two years. Yeah. And a lot of times it's COVID that they say woke them up. They do have very good arguments against the COVID narrative, the establishment COVID narrative. So it's pretty compelling. It seems like a lot of them are pretty sincere, like again, Jimmy Dorbert, Weinstein, two examples. And as far as I can tell, as individuals, they might have some greater purpose in which their masters hope to manipulate them. But I don't think they necessarily know that they have masters. I think they're being played. Yeah, yeah. think, like Brett Weinstein, I think he's being played. I don't think he's started out at all to be in the role he's in. But I don't think he, I don't know if it was clear that he was ever going to be in that role, be that popular either. He does get boosted a lot. So that's always suspicious. Whereas I get suppressed a lot. So I think though that what really is the tell with him is he was fantastic about exposing COVID and talking about ivermectin. things like that. And he was fantastic about explaining science, both the corruption of science and what is real science and things like that. So I've learned a few things from him. And he was great until October 7th. And right before that, had been talking about, know, Kanye had been talking about anti-Semitism and the Jews and all that. And I get bashed a lot by Nazis because I never say the Jews, like on my entire websites, I never blamed the Jews for anything. yeah, yeah. And they look at my website and say, you're not serious because you never blamed the Jews. You don't even have the phrase the Jews on your website. So I'm like, well, thank you very much. So I'm glad you noticed. And yeah, it doesn't stop people from saying I'm anti-Semitic though. So. So what did you take on quotation mark the Jews on the Jews as people, know, because I mean, it is incredible. I've spoken about it with guests on the show recently where like, I mean, five years ago, no one even dared. say about the Jews is just culture like there are some aspects of just culture. I don't like like the nepotism, for example, and the racism that's very common. Like the some people call it Jewish supremacy. Even Grok I proved is a Jewish supremacist. That's how it's trained somehow. I don't know exactly how it got there, but it's for example, I have a test I did. I have an article on explaining with Grok. You can ask it. If you had to save 6 million white people or one Jew, which one would you save? And it always says the Jew. It's like, what? And there's a few others like who's the most moral military in the world? And it says the IDF. So that's pretty bad. But I like to talk about Zionism. It's always Zionists or Israel. And Zionists like to conflate Jews and Zionists because they're using Jews as human shields is what they're doing. Yeah. come after us, you're really coming after Jews. You're not talking about Israel or Zionism. You're talking about Jews. And that's them using Jews as human shields. So they're the anti-Semitics. They're the ones hurting Jews. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And do you think there is a Jewish conspiracy of any sorts or is that a distraction? know. It's not impossible. mean, remember I'm saying it's these old families from the Levant that join forces. So that's certainly possible. I don't know that that's for sure the explanation. And I don't know that they're Jews or maybe they didn't used to be Jews and they just now call themselves Jews, but it doesn't matter. It's not every Jew, obviously, and not most Jews. So it doesn't really matter. It's not helpful to say they're Jews, even if they are, because one, it's speculative. And two, it's It just sounds super racist to say that. So what I, and I don't envision them as Jews either. Like when I envision the apex players, I envision them as English aristocrats or American like elite, but usually English aristocrats and never as like Jews ever. So I don't envision them as Jews, but it's not impossible that they are. I'm not sure how much that matters if they are or aren't because as I said, I don't know if they have any real. beliefs at that level, the apex player level. Like spiritual beliefs, they might. less spiritual for them at that point. They don't actually hold it, yeah. from what I can tell, I think they probably have lot of respect for people who have what they would consider good genes. Now what they consider good genes is not necessarily what you and I would consider good genes. But like people who question authority or independent thinkers, I'm not sure how much they like that. I think they might possibly like that in themselves, but they don't want us to have those genes. Could be that. Or it could be they don't like anybody questioning authority even among themselves. I don't know. Yeah. So there's that. But for example, my genealogy is pretty interesting from what I learned about two years ago. I'm descended from like 16 Roman emperors and this is Jesus and King Arthur and all these people. And I can trace it all the way back and lots and lots of people from like, oh, their website, there's several websites that do that. But like you can do that on the Mormon database, familytree.com. Yeah. Yeah. It's very painstaking to get very far back. You can take anyone up to 15 generations back and just put in your two names and they'll show you the relationship to them. anyone before that, so you can go back to the colonization of America and Australia, but before that, you just have to keep tracing the various roots of the tree all the way to the end and it gets... really some of them are super speculative so I don't count those like it like it'll show I'm descended from Adam and Moses and all that but but by the time you go back to them it's made all these leaps that are completely improbable like where it jumped a thousand years or it has somebody's being young older than their father and things like that that just don't make any sense so they like being born before their father so clearly that's BS but the one that goes all the way back to Jesus all the ones going back to these other famous characters and so Walter Riley Queen Mother and all these different people that are my cousins and Dorian sisters. And a lot of presidents, like about 49 % of the presidents are cousins. I'm not descended from any, as far as I know. And then they, that's pretty easy to find in there, especially for America. There's a lot of Americans in there. If you're from other countries, it gets harder and harder. I'm not descended from anyone like Albert Einstein or any famous Jewish people that I could find. So I was a little disappointed on that, but not too bad. But then, I mean, there's plenty of other famous people, very impressive people that I was descended from or cousins with either way. And then there's also. Well, a lot of the people that first colonized America. So I estimate from what I've found so far that I've got a couple dozen people that were on the Puritan ships. There were a couple hundred, like 238 or so Puritan ships that came over to colonize America. And I'm directly descended from about two dozen of those. And I've got about a hundred more cousins among them. Meaning we have a common ancestor going a little further back than the colonization. Yeah. So my ancestors going pretty far back. I'd kind of like to think that these apex players see people like me and think, if he causes us problems, we'll deal with him, but we're going to leave him alone. Otherwise, we'll suppress them. We won't let him cause us a problem, but that's kind of what we like to see. They like that. The good genes they call it. So they might think that. I like to think that because they haven't done anything to me directly that I can tell. I think they just let their system deal with me. Yeah. What do you think, I mean, so going back to the initial question about what's the point anyway, and you talk about, you know, being the best version of yourself, which is the opposite of what the apex players want. What are some other ways that you manifest that in your day to day? Like, how are you living out being the best version of yourself? Well, I'm surprisingly ordinary if you see me day to day. I'm just a computer programmer and I do a lot of reading and writing and I don't have anything too impressive going on or too unusual going on in my day to day life. And I'm not able to manifest the kind of emotion that you might think either, at least not so far. I'm getting better at that, but that's why, like my article on love. Mm-hmm. I explain a lot of people have the genes that give them the chemistry and the brain chemistry, the hormones that make it very easy for them to feel like they love somebody and to care about other people and to sacrifice for other people and to therefore appear to be very enlightened and Christ-like, but it's easy for them. If they were actually encountered with a hardship, they tend to crumble, whereas I don't. Because for me it's more of a, like I said, like an intellectual thing, like an act of creation even. It's like I will, I'm willing to not just die, but I'm willing to be tortured for all eternity if that would free humanity from the apex players. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm not surprised that you're a, when you said then you're a computer programmer, I can see that in the way that you answer questions and think about things. Very methodical, yeah. to say we programmers, at least the good ones tend to apply the scientific method a lot, multiple times per day. Other technical people do too, like IT, PO, testers, and even doctors and scientists don't do that. Not anymore anyway. So. correct. What is the scientific method? Because you say it and a lot of people would think... an article where whenever you look that up, and that's something I started to get hints at from Brett Weinstein. I think he has a pretty good handle on it, but he never spells it out completely. But he has a much more nuanced and sophisticated understanding than I've heard elsewhere. So I've asked him and others that follow him for that. And once again, they can't provide it. So I have to figure it out myself, much like a lot of spirituality. And therefore, I've written an article, a couple articles about that explaining the scientific process, the philosophy of science. I've written about three articles on that and one on the process. I identified about 26 steps in the process so far. So I can't just like spit it out because it's not simple, but it's not the cartoonish five-step version that you always hear about in elementary school. So it's way beyond that. So I can talk a lot about what science is and what science isn't and what makes science better. why science works. Yeah. Well, what's a, maybe we'll finish on this final question about basically with your computer program and mindset and the way you've analyzed everything that's happening. I don't know whether you think, you know, the future is bright for the apex players or the future is bright for the average guys like you and I. What do you think's ahead? I really don't know. I don't want to be one of those people that fall into the desperation that there's going to be a messiah or the aliens are going to save us or something like that. So I would hope that somebody more sophisticated is keeping an eye out for us like aliens and they won't let it get too bad, but I don't know. So. But for all I know, they're in league with aliens. I mean, that's not impossible. maybe that's who's really at the top, but. I don't have a lot of reason to believe that. So I have very little reason to believe that. So what? Not really. I haven't seen, it's one of those things I'm very open to, but I've not seen compelling evidence. Not compelling. I've seen a lot of, I do my due diligence and I typically pierce most claims of aliens. It's pretty easy to see through them. But there is enough evidence that it's hard to explain some things without aliens. On the other hand, it's... not impossible, it doesn't seem impossible, it just seems hard to explain, so it's possible. But I did calculation recently and I concluded there's probably about one, currently one sentient species with computers in other words, they have computers, not just sentient, out of every 10,000 galaxies at the moment. But I could be wrong, I had to make a lot of assumptions to get that, so I could be way off on that. So there's just a lot more or lot less than that. But even if there's one per galaxy, even if I'm off by 10,000. Yeah. Yeah. going to encounter them anytime soon. So that could explain it. Why there don't seem to be any around. Another reason I like to explain is, I mean, if you look at humanity right now, I like to kid people. And this was very popular on the alien subreddit on Reddit. And so they figured it out and shut it down. But I trick them, even though I get censored everywhere else on Reddit. I wrote that aliens came because we nuclear bomb and they're like we they happen to know perhaps that within a few years after that we could develop interstellar travel it's theoretically possible once we get that far it may take us 100 years it may take us two years but they're going to come and watch and make sure we don't blow ourselves up maybe and they they came and then two years and then i say but i think what really got them here was not that i think at that same time that's when humanity all the tribes of men got on the same page and said never again and that's what made them think we might be ready to join them. And they came here and two years later, they did it again. Hang on, so what timeline's that? Two years after 1945, so 1947, the Nakba. So the European invaders go to Palestine, start wreaking havoc, killing people, slaughtering people, ethnic cleansing, committing genocide. And they're doing it to this day, and we are forced to look the other way. Mm. So imagine if you were aliens, you'd be like, I don't know if they're going to figure it out or not, but let's just hang around now that we're here and see if they figure it out. Interesting. Well, Jim, thanks for your time. It's been, you've certainly been different to my, I don't really have an average guess because I endeavour to try to get really different guests anyway, but you've brought a new perspective. So I've enjoyed digging in and seeing how your brain works and getting new perspectives on things. So thanks for being so open. It's great. We'll chat again soon. See you Jim. Hey, I'm just going to hit stop.