What's The Point Anyway?
It seems like much of the Western world is lost. The interesting trend over the last few years is that more and more people are working that out.
More people have worked out that endless materialism and chasing things that never actually satisfy us aint it.
So what’s the point of it all, anyway?
What's The Point Anyway?
Episode #31 - Craig Harper from The You Project on the ever evolving nature of 'The Point'
Craig Harper is somewhat of a local legend in my hometown of Melbourne and a man who hosts my mum's favourite podcast - The You Project. So as any good son would do, I reached out to him to get him on the show. Craig Harper is a successful businessman, speaker and podcaster - his current project has a whopping 1,830 episodes! He has spoken to all sorts of people, from celebrities to nobodies, and given the nature of his work he has a really valuable perspective on the question of what the point is anyway. He's 'looked under the hood' of so many people and is obsessed with the topic of human potential.
One thing that he's learned more than anything over time is how often he is wrong - this humility has helped him to grow in tolerance and open mindedness. I was really interested to chat to Craig about faith, because he grew up strict Roman Catholic and left the faith in his 30's and now identifies as agnostic. Unlike some ex-Christians, he remains open minded to Christianity so I enjoyed digging into what he does and doesn't believe and why.
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All right, mate, worries. Yeah, good and you? Yeah, really good. Fantastic. Even though I've just been to, we're in St. Andrew's beach. We've been here a couple of years, but we had an issue with the air con in the car. So I've had to drive to Melbourne for 15 minutes and back. good podcast listening time. We're about since San Andreas beats you. we're near the rec club. yeah, I know what that is. I got a place in Andrews. Right, okay. How often do you head down? Yeah, not often enough. You might have to go around and check on it for me. Yeah, let us, I've got a call from a mate the week ago, he's in Ryan, the alarm system was going off, he's like, can you go and check on the house? That's hilarious. Well, mate, thanks for coming on. I was really, really keen to chat to you. I've listened to you before and I only just put two and two together around who you actually were and what the longer term connection is. So, mum is a massive, massive fan of yours. God bless mum. What's mum's name? Marie Parker. So I think she used to go to Harper's Gym. I reckon when I was like a five year old. Hi Marie. So she's looking forward to this episode. But I got, I started to listen to you again when you interviewed Trevor Hendy. I think after the fact, but I had Trevor on the show who was awesome. And in preparation for that, I was listening to a few of his interviews and, listen to him with you. So you projects interesting. I'm blown away. You've done like, I love doing these podcasts. It's it gives me a chance just to chat to interesting people for an hour. What are you up to? Like 1800 episodes? Something like that. Plus I did three shows before that that didn't really take off. So what are we up to? Today 18, 24, yeah. good effort. What's been your favorite? Or is that like us? We can, give me that one off the record. You can give me that one off the record at the end. mean, like, we wrong? Like, is this us or are we? We're rolling. If it's terrible chat, I'll cut it out and we'll start rolling. We'll start the... It's funny you say that because I actually got asked the same thing two hours ago, which I haven't been asked for a long time, but so. So Johnny Ruffo, who I loved, Johnny Ruffo, do you know who he is? Or I should say was? Yeah. former, what was he on, Australian Idol or one of those? Yeah. singer, actor, done a bunch of stuff, sadly passed away from cancer a year or a yeah, yeah, a while ago. And he was amazing. I mean, I've had a lot, like I've had very few rubbish ones. A guy called Mark Randolph who set up Netflix, who created Netflix. He was a good dude. I liked him. You know, there are some people you think you're going to get on some big deal and it's going to, it's going to blow everyone's going to listen and you're going to, Oh, we've got this big name and then it doesn't, it's all right. And then you get on people who no one's ever heard of and they're amazing. And, it's a great story and they're inspirational and they're clever and they've got great, lots of great ideas and strategies and, um, yeah. So it's, it's, there's no real rhyme or reason. mean, I've had some. I've had some rippers and I have, I mean, I have a guy called David Gillespie on, he's one of the smartest people I know. He's on every fortnight. He's a researcher. He's a lawyer. He's arguably Australia's biggest non-selling fiction author. You know, we have great chats regularly. Yeah. then, yeah, I mean, it's like a lot, a lot. There've been some crap ones, but there've been a lot of ones that I really enjoyed and where I really, I mean, As you kind of alluded to at the start, you're learning, you know, it's like, this is an opportunity for me to learn. I'm chatting regularly with people that are smarter than me. And my background is in exercise physiology and exercise science and high performance and sport and teams and the general public and owning gyms and helping people get in shape. And then, you know, I moved not out of that, but I started to incorporate. You know, more mind stuff, brain stuff, human behavior stuff, and ergo my PhD in psychology. But you know, that, that whole kind of integration of body, mind, emotions, human behavior, thinking, psychology, physiology, you know, what is success for me? You know, who am I? What are my values? What do I stand for? What am I doing? That's working. What am I doing? That's stupid. Why do I do it? You know, I'm just the whole human kind of adventure for me is interesting and fascinating. Yeah. So the next question I was going to ask basically ties into ultimately the point of my podcast, the title of it, and usually what I open with, but I mean, a guy who's spent 1,824 episodes plus all the other things you do, just chatting to interesting people and picking their brains, where's it left you on the answer to this question? What's the point anyway? Yeah, see. Okay. So I think, can I be, can I, can I go the dark side for a moment? I think the question needs more. Like, what's the point of what? What's the point of life? What's the point of health? What's point of relationships? Now, what's, what's your point? What's Luke's point versus Craig's point? Like there's an underlying assumption that there's, what's the point, which is singular. There's an assumption that there's an underlying single point. Yeah. don't think, I think it's a great starting point question. And I think what is the point for me when I was 25, is not the point for me when I'm 60. I think it evolves over time. you know, I think there's a point in your life when it's all about, what's the point? it's all about connection and building a relationship and raising a family and making dough and being a great dad or mom or whatever it is. And then, You know, there are other times when if you ask someone at a certain point of their life, it might be building a business and brand and security for the future. And so I don't know that there's a single point, you know, but it is a great, it's a beautiful starting off or stepping off question. It's like, how many people, there's a concept I talk about called destination disappointment. How many people get where they wanted to go? And then they're like, now what? Like, I lost 30 kilos. I'm light. I'm lean. I feel good. I look good. I'm healthier. but they still, it's not well, it maybe I need three more kilos. Maybe I need to, you know, whatever. And it's like, now I earn a million bucks a year. And I'm still emotionally and psychologically, not where I want to be. Maybe, maybe it's a million and a half. need maybe it's two or now I'm at the top of the mountain, but I'm still disappointed. Maybe I'm on the wrong mountain. Maybe I need another mountain. Right. And I think I think that we try and resolve internal issues with external solutions. I think it's, you know, we focus too much on stuff, too much on things, too much on outcomes and numbers. All of those things matter, but they don't necessarily equate to Luke or Craig being happy and fulfilled and connected and not anxious and not overthinking and not depressed and not lonely and not disconnected. Yeah, it makes sense. It's interesting. mean, the guests I bring on are really diverse and wide. there's, and the answer is diverse and wide as well. There's some people that think there is a ultimate underlying point to life. And if it is singular and objective, then that's the point for everyone. Or there's at the other end of the spectrum, you know, an answer might be the point is the journey. Or the point is life is what you make of it. And therefore by, by definition, it's very much an individual journey and it's evolving over time. I mean, your answer, as you spoke then it reminds me a little bit of the, that old book, the Paul Aquelo book, like the alchemist, know, people set a goal and they set somewhere they're going to and, when they get there, they're often let down. They realize that it was all the steps along the process that were the good parts, not the end of it. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And I think, yeah, it's like, what's the best diet? Well, for who? What's the best job? Like my best job would be most people's nightmare. I mean, I haven't had a job since I was 25. I've worked for me for the last 36 years. I have no, you know, no holiday pay, no sick pay, no consistency of wage. It's unpredictable. I could make X this month or I could make 10 X. And most people hate that uncertainty and that vulnerability. But I thrive in the middle of that, but I wouldn't suggest it. Yeah, yeah, I actually heard, forget what the episode was, but I mean, was when I say recent ones that with you, might've been 50 episodes ago and that's actually not that long. But I think you spoke about the meaning of life and you said that you've come to the realization that there actually is no definitive answer. I think for most things, Luke, like, here's the thing, you know, I don't know how many people listen to this, but let's say a thousand people listen to this. So a thousand people listen to the same conversation with the same blokes, but no one's having an identical experience because everyone's got a different processing filter. Everybody's got a different brain. Everybody's got a different backstory. So we're hearing the same words said by the same guys with the same intent, but we're not having the same experience. You know, so I think it's, and I think it's funny when we get all deep and philosophical about meaning, we feel compelled to have an answer. Here's an idea. I don't fucking know. I don't know. And if you think, you know, I don't mean you necessarily, but it's like, well, I can tell you maybe what the meaning or the purpose of my life is, but then people talk about it like it's almost some preordained destiny, some cosmic kind of karmic thing that we need to find under some mythical rock and go, here it is. I've discovered my destiny and purpose. Now, maybe, maybe, or maybe you just go, well, I've got these resources and I've got this brain and this body and this skill and this talent and this compassion and this energy. So therefore with all of that, what I want to do is I want to teach and coach and mentor people to be, you know, more effective at what they do, or I want to go and start a charity or I want to become the best athlete on the planet or, you know, I don't know that it's a single. thing. Yeah. And it's different for different people, I think. And even for the same person over time, it can evolve because as you change, then where your energy goes, perhaps changes what matters to you, perhaps changes what you think is really important. There's stuff that I thought was really important when I was 25. I don't think it anymore. You know, doesn't not that I was right or wrong then, or right or wrong now. It's just, it's just ain't the same. like, I think with so much stuff, we humans, feel like we've got to have an answer or we've got to know. We've got to know. What do you think? It's like, I've been asked this over, but I don't know a thousand times. What do you think happens when we die? I go, it doesn't matter what I think. Cause I don't know. I go, you don't know. I don't know. No one knows. Right. People go, Oh no, well there's definitely, and I'm not saying there is or isn't a God or there's an afterlife or not. I'm not saying that I'm saying we don't actually know. Mm-hmm. because if we knew then we'd have unequivocal proof and evidence and data and science, which is why we don't. And we call it faith, which is literally believing in something we can't prove. So while it feels emotionally safe and comfortable for people to go, there definitely is this or there definitely is that. And I understand that because I understand the brain and the mind and the need for certainty. But the uncomfortable truth is none of us know. Yes. raised in a very religious environment and I could quote scripture all day, like I literally studied the Bible for a very long time. And while there are certain things I wish or want to hope, the objective uncomfortable reality is I don't know. And so, you know, in 2025, I feel like a lot of people are for whatever reason, because of insecurity or because of ego or because they just think they're right or because, and it's not all bad motives, of course, but people feel compelled to have an unequivocal answer. And I think sometimes, like you think about how many times you've got shit wrong in the last year. I don't know, I've got 20 things wrong yesterday. Why would I think today I'm getting everything right? It's like, I don't know. You know, I don't know. I've been understanding, or I should say studying humans my whole adult life. And I don't know 1 % of what there is to know, like literally. don't, I mean, my understanding to me, might seem significant, but in terms of what there is to know, it's a drop of water in an ocean of information and knowledge. But the problem is people think their drop is the ocean. Yeah. Do you think today there's any... Is there any single thing you're certain of? Death. Yep, taxes. But even then, but even then, physical death. mean, yeah, yeah. mean, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, there's lots of things I want and hope. I go, I think, I think opening these, these conversational and philosophical doors is good because it's your thinking and your, you know, it's very I was going to say it's very something. So I'm going to start again. To me, it's very important that we think about how we think that we don't live in an echo chamber that I don't think like Luke because I love Luke. Luke's my mate. Luke and I have been hanging out since we were 10 and I live in the Luke echo chamber. And so I just think what Luke's think, Luke thinks, well, that's a dumb way to be. So you and I could be the best of mates who disagree on 13 different things. And our friendship and our love and our whatever for each other is not dependent on agreement on everything. But we live in echo chambers and thought cults and ideological cults where, I did an episode the other day called sitting on the fence and people often go, mate, don't sit on the fence. And I'm like, why not? Mm. That's like, got to pick a side. I'm like, who said what you said? He's, you know, group A and group B. I don't really resonate with either group. I might start my own group might be called group Z. You know, in fact, I don't want to be in a group. because as soon as I'm in a group, there's a price of membership. You know, it's like, I've got it to belong in the group. I've got to agree with the theology, the doctrine, the, and you go, you're, you're a You're whatever. And I'm not saying groups are bad, but you're in this religion or you're in that corporate group or you're in that cultural group or social group or, you know, even in the fitness industry where I grew up, it's like, mate, there are so many fitness cults where people, know, if you, if you're not doing CrossFit, you're an idiot. If you are doing CrossFit, it's dangerous. You know, if you're not, if you're not stretching all the time or you're, you know, or if you're not If you're not lifting weights regularly, then you're this or that. And if you don't do, you know, it's like same with food. There are food echo chambers, you know, where like, if you eat meat, you're a bad person. You're horrible. Okay. That was fair for you. Horrible people then. Cause a fair few people eat meat, but I understand that you don't. And I understand you don't want to. And I understand your values and I totally respect them. However, please don't try and make me be like you. or me agree or conform with you? How about you don't eat meat and I will eat meat and we can still be friends? How about that? Yeah. So I mean, it's a great, you know, that for me that evokes the feeling of the emotion of tolerance, which I think people speak about a lot, but he's seldom practiced to be honest, a lot of people preach tolerance and are extremely intolerant to people, know, it's or it's tolerant within their window. But say, say with you, and I agree with so much of what you've said, how do you, how do you decide what you're gonna stand for. Where do you put a stake in the ground? no, this is a hill I'll die on and this is a hill that I will, this is something I'm willing to be sort of bent on. Yeah, that's a great question. So I think everybody needs to get clear about what their values are. You know, your values are the things that matter to you really, really matter to you. So what matters to me is and this will sound a bit bullshitty, but what matters to me is family. What matters to me is my mom and dad, especially as they get older. So looking after them, providing for them, caring for them, loving them. matters to me like my values. Another one of my values is health, wellness. Another one of my values is kindness. Another one of my values is service. And the reason that I say that is because the more selfish I am, which I can be selfish, the worse I am. I don't like me when I'm selfish. I'm an only kid. I tried selfish for quite a long time. I gave it a good crack. I'm, I'm actually quite good at selfish, but it makes me a shit human for myself and for others. So You know, generosity, love, kindness, all of those things which sound cheesy, but you know, but that's not to say being loving, kind, generous is being a doormat for someone else. I believe that I'm also, I think you need to be strong and resilient. You know, I'm one of the least lazy people I know. Like I'm not very talented. I'm not very gifted. I was a morbidly obese teenage. I was the fattest kid in my school. I... was not a great student. I am not athletically gifted. I'm not creatively gifted. And so for me to do okay, I probably needed to work at nine out of 10 where some of my mates were working at five out of 10 for me to get the same outcome. But for me being mediocre was ironically a gift because it built in me work ethic and resilience and mental toughness and all of those things, because I knew that if I ever wanted to be successful, whatever that means, I wasn't just going to end up there. Like I wasn't just going to end up like commercially successful or athletically or, you know, I was never, you I would have to figure it out, be resilient, step up when some people would step down, embrace the pain. you know, ask a question, solve problems and keep fucking going. Right. And, you know, it's like before my podcast, and this is not in any way a promo, but before my podcast, I did three other podcasts that didn't work. If we're talking about commercial viability, that didn't work. And that was over about two or three years. And then I started my podcast, which I did 600 episodes, which cost me money. So. I lost money because I'm paying for a bunch of things. So I have two people at work for me, one full time, one part time who produce and edit. And back in those days, we, we filmed everything and we did them live in studio with humans in studio, not via zoom. So I spent about four years trying to get this thing off the ground and losing money. And I wasn't very good at it. I was, you know, if 10 out of 10 is my absolute potential when I started, I was a two. Well, okay. Can I just, can I just butt in for a sec? Can I just butt in for a sec there? When you started it, did you have a very clear goal in mind that you were working towards or did you start it and you let it evolve? I had, mean, everything that I do, I mean, it depends on that's a good question, but look, I wanted to do it for a bunch of reasons. One of them commercial, but another one was to, you know, it's like, so my main job in inverted commas is corporate speaking is working with teams and groups, companies, organizations, all that. Uh, and this is, you know, my podcast. Now we go into about 90 countries. We have lots of listeners and And that's a pretty good business card or a pretty good brochure for your business, right? Yeah. And it gives you leverage and it gives you awareness and it gives you brand exposure and all of that stuff. and I knew it would do that, but I wanted, I wanted to meet cool people and have good conversations and learn new things. But I also wanted to produce something that would be, sponsorable and commercially viable. And I come from a background of working in radio, worked in commercial radio for 15 years or so. And so I was used to being on a mic and used to having conversations and I worked on talkback radio. So I was used to just banging on, you know, and, but I wasn't terrible when I started, but I certainly wasn't great. so, you know, whatever I'm doing, whether or not it's doing, you know, post postgraduate study and I'm not a brilliant student. I want to get through it and I want to do it as well as I can. I'm, if I'm learning how to do some tech thing and I'm not a natural tech person, I want to learn how to do it. Well, I don't want to be the best. want to be my best. Like what's the, know, like I'm 61, my chronological age is 61. And I think, and I've always thought this, you know, uh, since I was the fat kid who got in shape, I think, um, all right, well with my body, with my genetics, with my potential, What's the best way for me to eat the best for me? Not, not generically or broadly, but for me, yeah. What's the best way for me to move and exercise? How much weight should I do? How much cardio should I do? And what about sleep and what about supplements and what about booze and what about stimulants like coffee and tea and Coke? And, and so what I do is I've always tried to create an operating system where I think, well, I can get another business and another podcast and another car, but I can't get another body. So how do I optimize the one that I've got? So everything that I do without being, you know, obsessive is especially when it comes to managing my health is the best thing that I can do. So I've never been high. I've never been drunk. I've never drunk alcohol. I've never had a cigarette. I eat two meals a day. lift weights every day. And I don't do that because I mean, some people would call that whatever they want to call it, right? Weird, obsessive that I'm cool with that. But the bottom line with that protocol is that my brain and my body work as well as when I was 30, you know, like I don't know what my biological age is, but I would think it's somewhere in the low to mid forties, right? And there's no ego in that. Just I've done lots of biological age tests on other people and I've had mine done, but not for a few years. Yeah. But, you know, so why wouldn't you want to get the most out of whether it's your talent, your potential, your genetics, your resources, the hours in a day, you know, that's just how I think. Yeah, I think it's funny as you say that, and I say this in myself and I've seen it with guests. Like one of my recent ones was Ryan Leif who picked two, I don't know you know his story, it's insane, but picked two in the NFL draft quarterback for the San Diego Chargers. Went to jail, yeah, out of league in four years. Now, This is like an inversion of what we all think growing up, but I think natural talent's one of the worst things that someone can have. Because when you can get away with doing things easy, you can fall into the trap of doing that. I mean, I've done it. mean, things like school came really easily to me. So I got a good score, got into a good uni, of flapped my way through uni without doing all that much work. Five years out of school, was like the guys that were less talented were out, they were outperforming me because they taught themselves to work. Yeah, Ryan, the same story. He, you know, just found it very easy to throw a football. You know, he's always first picks, never had, never had to sort of work hard to get to where he was. And then the moment which came in his third game in the league where he had to deal with adversity, he fell in a hole. Yeah. did you do at uni? I did commerce at Melbourne, marketing, finance. I can't remember picking up a book the whole time there. I sort of just backed myself to get through based on things I still remembered from year 12. And it worked for me. But it's still a trade idea with today that I can be lazy and get away with it. But I know I can't, it catches up. I now know more than ever that it's just hard work and it's grind that gets success, not talent. Yeah, look, I think it's a bit of everything, you know, I agree with you that it's primarily what you do with what you've got. But it's like, you know, your potential, like what you're born with your potential, your genetics, your IQ, your brain, I mean, that's a gift. The skill that you develop, well, that's work, you know, you can be proud of the skill proud of the achievements, proud of what you do with what you've got. but what you've got, you can't be proud of that. You can just be thankful, you know, and I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful for so much stuff. I'm grateful that my parents are 85 and still around. And, know, I think also without being too weird, deep philosophical, but when you get a bit older, so many people get sick and die, of course. And then like one of my best friends in the world, someone I love very much died a few days after Christmas and on Christmas day. I was sitting with her in a hospital and she was probably about 72 hours away from passing away and I was holding her hand and I was talking to her and it's like, In that moment, and I know this is deep, but when you are with someone that you love and they're dying and you know that you're never going to see them again, and this is the last conversation and you've known this person your entire life and you've loved them and they've loved you. So this lady was like my second mom. And in some ways I've at times were more connected to her than my mom, mom. And she used to call me a fifth kid because she has four daughters and me. Right. And I remember. talking to her and she said, she said to me like three, four minutes before I was going to go, she goes, you know how much I love you, right? And I, I just fobbed her off. go, yeah, I know, I know. And she's like, and she squeezed like frailest hands in the world, right? And she squeezes my, my arm as much as she could. And she made me look at her again, right? And then she said it again. And, and you're like, oh yeah. So So when you go like, what's really important, what really matters, it's like that, you know, for me that love, that level of connection, you know, cause you, and there's nothing wrong with being and doing creating, but there'll always come a point where you go, none of that actually matters. It kind of matters in the moment, you know, but, you know, my mate, my training partner, Uh, who's one of my best mates in the world. died six years ago, temporarily in the gym. He had a cardiac arrest right in front of me. Uh, and dead, absolute dead, no heartbeat. He was dead for 17 minutes. And so I worked on him straight away and 17 minutes, I worked on him for 11 minutes and then the Ambos got there and then they worked on him for another six and, and a whole bunch of stuff. And anyway, Thankfully he's still here. I'm seeing him in two and a half hours to do a workout with him. But it's funny when someone that you love, when that happens, how meaningless and inconsequential and unimportant everything else is. Right now, I'm not trying to be too weird and deep, but it's like sometimes we go, my God, this is so bad. my God, this is such a big issue. And this is such a, and then you're like, is it, is it though? Is it? And I know we've got to do life and I know we get caught up in the minutiae, me as well. Sometimes I invent problems that don't even exist yet. Right. So I still do it. So I'm not being critical of anyone but myself, but it's like, yeah. And so I think too, as you go down all these philosophical and you know, emotional and psychological rabbit holes, it's interesting to come back to base and you know, love, connection, kindness, family, friends. Because as long as you're somewhere in that ballpark and you're getting boxes ticked and needs met on that level, then the other stuff matters, but not that much, I don't think. Definitely, yeah, have done. Well, you might know him. Do know Ryan Traynor? Fellow sort of bright. Yeah, fellow bright, Hampton Brighton sort of guy, but I've worked with Ryan Heat. Yeah, he came on my show. was, well, he might have been my third or fourth guest, but he's been a mate for ages and, you know, super successful entrepreneur, businessman. And so it must have been about 10 years ago now, his youngest daughter. Yeah, he CEO of a company started at that point in time got diagnosed with a form of cancer. And he said the same thing. He's like, I remember getting the call and looking at my calendar, which, know, as any founder, CEO looks at the calendar, it's jam packed with important meetings, need to get this done, need to get this done. And I looked at it and none of it mattered. But you need those moments in time and So as you were saying that, it made me think that one of the more common answers or themes that I seem, I think I pick up on a lot of the conversations I have is that most people, when they think about what the point is or what is important from all different faiths, non-faiths, atheist, whatever it might be, relationships to me seems to be probably the most common theme that's there. And you know, different faiths or different worldviews have an explanation for why relationships are important. I mean, in a totally sort of existential world, it's somewhat doesn't make sense. It would be more me, me, me. where, and I know, and I'd love, maybe after this we'll circle back to your sort of journey growing up. I know you grew up in a Catholic family, but where have you got to today in terms of what your, how would you define your faith? or you know, faith slash religion. Yeah, I mean, this is probably a whole show, but yeah, look, so I grew up, forget, mean, yeah. So I grew up in an echo chamber of religion and theology and doctrine and behavior and rules and punishment and control and threats. So that's, that's where I grew up. And that was the Catholic bit. but well, that was only a bit of it. Then I got, then when I was about 18, 19, I immersed myself in, I found myself in another church, which was a fundamental, for want of a better term, born again, Christian church, which was really fundamentally strict. literal. Yeah. Yeah. And then look, there were bits of that that were awesome. Like, it's not like, poor me. was in doctorate. No, it's not that at all. Like there's stuff in the Bible, some stuff that is amazing. and, you know, there were, were experiences that I had in the context of, church and my journey with other people. And that were for me fundamental and shaped me and, you know, got me to look at myself in a way that I hadn't looked at myself before and to learn about a little bit more about self-awareness and humility and accountability and a whole lot of things that really were not high on my list. And so there was a lot of good to come out of it. But I think the problem with any group of people, let's just say that, is that it's full of people. You know, so let's go. A church, forget the building, let's call the church the people, right? Well, that's a bunch of people who have got egos and attitudes and beliefs and values and behaviors and idiosyncrasies and agendas. so it's not that I think religion is of itself bad, but I think a lot of what comes out of religion not because of necessarily the doctrine or the theology, but it can be that some doctrine is pretty fucking horrendous. I'll let you know, but it's just people like I've met Christians that are beautiful, amazing, gorgeous, and other people that are just fucking lying, conniving, narcissistic, controlling people who know a lot of scripture. I've met Buddhists who are beautiful and I've met atheists who have got much more wisdom than any Christian I know, right? Or it's not good or bad, it's just that. And so I think, again, I probably was in and out of church till I was about 30, but I this again, this is going to sound like bullshit, but I don't care. This is just true. So I believe that that most, most, most texts and most theologies talk about love. There's an underpinning message of love. Right. And I think that while there's a lot of other variables, right. And we live in a world that is a bit terrifying at the moment, there's a lot of division. There's, know, all you got to do is go online and say, I think this and you'll have 50 % of people who hate you, 50 % who agree with you. the sky is blue and you're going to get people disagreeing with you now. 100%. So, but, and I don't know if the world will ever get to this, sadly, I don't think so, but I know that all I can control is me. And so what I do is I try and come from a place of love and kindness and I fucked that up a lot. I don't get that right often, but that is my mission. That is my aim is to be a positive force in the world and a positive force in other people's lives. And sometimes I get it right and sometimes I don't. I'm not interested in philosophical or theological debates. I'm not trying to win anybody into my cult or my team or my tribe. I always say on my show, I'll tell you what I think and why, but you need to figure out what you think. Don't agree with me because I make sense or you like me. Agree with me because You've thought about what I've said, you've taken it for a test drive, you've done your own work and research, and then maybe you land at the same spot that I'm at or not. And it doesn't matter. yeah, I'm very much like a lot of what Jesus taught in the New Testament. I'm on board. A lot. So I wouldn't call myself a Christian as much as I am. a fan of the doctrine of Jesus at time, you know, and then, and again, what do we know? But am I, you know, am I a good example or role model? No, don't fucking do no, I'm I'm shit. Don't pay attention to me. But I try to be that. there are, you know, like, I think we need to try to operate in self awareness. And there's an area of research in psychology called metacognition that you may or may not know about metacognition is essentially thinking about thinking, trying to do a deep dive into, why do I think the way that I do? And why are me and Luke in the same conversation, but in a different experience? Because it's not about where we're at or what we're doing. It's about how you and I both interpret this moment and give it meaning and tell ourselves a story. And if you have a thousand people listen to this, it's more than likely that someone's thinking, this is pretty interesting. and someone else is going, this is fucking confusing. And someone else is going, this is boring. And someone else has turned off, right? So it's really about how we interact with the world and how we create our own experiences. But back to your original question that I've meandered from. Yeah, I don't, you know, it's love and kindness. It's not a religion. Like I don't want to belong to a group, you know. Did you get, cause look, I mean, and I find, I find it fascinating. I find people that grew up in the church and came out of it just as fascinating as I find the ones that grew up outside of it and came into it. And I'm interested in why I'm interested in sort of, the process of why some went on my end, some went the other, but I think as people have grappled with churchianity, I'll call it. You know, there's two parts of it. There's the first is saying, hey, you know what, like, I believe in the existence of God, but I don't know about this building or this set of doctrines or whatever, you know, whatever it is. When you came out of it, where did you land on the God question? Because there's a lot of people that believe in God and just don't believe that that God is knowable per se, or there's no doctrine that explains it. Did you end up... agnostic or did you end up atheist that there is no God and this is just all just us trying to create meaning in something that's ultimately meaningless. So I grew up with the, know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that God, right? The, know, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, John 3.16, the salvation scripture, all that, whole nine yards. So that was the God that I knew because that was the God that I'd been taught, you know, and you're trained and told and taught and programmed and conditioned and coerced, right? Just like you are, the sky is blue. Mm-hmm. know it's blue because we got told a million times and we can see, and we now identify that teaching with that color that we look at when we look up, right? So there's nothing in our brain that says that's not blue. So too for me, there was nothing in my brain that went, there's not a God. Cause I know there's a God. Cause from when I could walk and talk and comprehend, I've been told about the blue sky and the God that lives up somewhere beyond the blue sky, right? So, but what we're not. taught, we're told what to think. Luke, we're not trained or taught how to think. Right? You know, so I'm more interested in teaching people how to think for themselves, to think critically, and to arrive at their own truth, whatever that is. Do I think there are some objective universal truths? Of course, jump off a building and see if gravity is not real. That's real as fuck, right? So Of course, there are lots of things that are objectively true that I think any any of us would agree on. But then there are the other things. Where you go, I don't know, is there a God? Is there the God that I grew up believing the version of the God that I grew up believing? The truthful question, the truthful answer is I don't know. Is there a like, I'm not trying to be avoided, but I just don't fucking know. I'd love to go. Like, I think there is, well, I don't know. Do I think there's a, I definitely think, and this could be wrong. See, this is an interesting conversation, beliefs and identity, because they're intertwined. But do I do, do I think there's an intelligence or a divine something that exists beyond human understanding and cognition and our version of intellect and our version of logic. and our version of science and what is. I do think that, but I could be wrong. I just think that we think like what we think is vast knowledge is probably not vast at all. I think we're also, you know, we're also looking at everything as a species, eight billion people, all the scientists, all the researchers, all the theologians, all the philosophers, all the sociologists, we're always looking at whatever it is we're looking at through the window of our own understanding. Well, that's a very fucking limited lens. Because I'm a dumbass. So me going, is there a God? Fuck, I don't know. Do I want there to be a God that loves me and cares about? Yeah, of course I do. That's great. Gives me great comfort. Is it true? I don't know. And so, but I think the brave path to take, not saying I'm brave, but is to go This is what I believe, but I could be wrong. See, the problem is that there are, even with this God discussion, there are 12 major religions and 4,000 minor religions. Pretty much every religion thinks they're the one true religion. And when you think that the way that we think and the way that we worship in our theology is the one true, whatever, then you concurrently think that everyone who doesn't agree with you in the world is wrong. Yeah. that's pretty arrogant for a faith that's meant to be rooted in humility, you know, or a belief system that's all about humility. And, you know, it's like, that seems kind of arrogant. you know, and I think also we get to enter, like, there are a lot of people who are religious in inverted commas. If there's a God, there's a lot of people who are religious who are nowhere near God, in my opinion, your honor. And there are a lot of people who've never set foot in church, you're probably more connected to God than a lot of people, but that doesn't fit well with the group thing. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And so I like your answer. think saying I don't know is, I actually, love having guests on the show that answer any of the questions with I don't know. I wish those three words were something we heard more of in the world because I don't know shows a willingness to learn something new in future. It moves you out of that sort of fixed mindset. But I'm doing a show next week with a guy called Alan Bondar. He was a... I think he was a Baptist pastor anyway. Now he's a staunch atheist and would answer the question differently. So he wrote a book called, I think it's called, How to Kill God the Easy Way. So he's gone, you know, the other end of the spectrum saying there absolutely is no God. You know, I mean, he's as fundamental as the fundamentalist Christian, just taking the other side of the fence. But I mean, the funny thing, and you probably, you wouldn't remember this from. from the Bible, the, I mean, the fundamentalists hate this, but the reality, the Bible, the one time it really sort of explains what faith is. It's like, it's this, you know, the evidence of the things unseen, it's the substance of the things hoped for. It's, a Christian has faith in something, they don't, it is not, it's not a doctrine of proof. It is those who walk in faith. And I think people are really, I mean, I see it with Christians and I see it with atheists. lot of people, Christians, try to argue that, no, no, it's all proof, it's all provable. It's like, your own doctrine says it's not provable. It says that your faith is something that you walk by without sight, without evidence. That people love to be able to explain everything themselves. Yeah, that's cause people are insecure. think. and, know, I mean, Luke, people want to be right. And I understand that people want to be people don't want to say, don't know. And the thing is, by the way, if any religion had absolute objective proof, well, that would make faith redundant. No point of faith, absolutely no point of faith. you're like, you don't need faith anymore because you've got knowledge, which by the way, can I see the data, the evidence, the knowledge? No, you can't. Okay. I just know. Well, I just know. And I know you believe, you know, and that's cool. Don't confuse what you believe with what is you can believe that gravity doesn't isn't real, but doesn't mean that it's not real. It just means you believe that, you know, and this like, you know, there's a lot of guys that don't believe in gravity in the whole sort of truth, in the whole truth of movement. Yeah. Yeah. They believe it's density, not gravity. If most, if you speak to any guys that that are, that hold to the flat earth for you, they'll say gravity is not real. It's density. I think they're just moving the physics deck chairs, right? You know, it's okay. That's okay. You know. to our point before, there is disagreement on everything. Even the one thing you're using to say is the one objective truth. a hundred percent. Yeah, of course. Of course. Like what do we, you know, and then if you talk to somebody else, even when not real, we're just in a simulation, you know, so speaking to that I'm going to bring on that's his worldview. Yeah, like the funny thing is about really hardcore atheists is they get quite religious about their atheism. religious. Yeah. Yeah. It's ironic and yeah, but you know, bless his little socks and who knows he could be a hundred percent right and we could be a hundred percent wrong and or some version of, know, the thing is the challenging thing is that we are probably more emotional than logical creatures than we are logical. And, you know, so when you believe something, your emotions are intertwined with that and quite often your identity is intertwined with that. And so If, if I know like a really easy for me example to illustrate is so when I was younger and I was growing up in fitness, health, wellness, owning gyms and all that stuff, we used to talk about the food pyramid, which was in inverted commas science, and it was the gold standard. And we spoke with absolute certainty about, you know, this high water mark of eating, which was called the food pyramid. And then for reasons I won't go into, but fascinating reasons. kind of found out that the research and how it all happened and how the food pyramid came into being was bullshit. And that it's Adventists or something were involved in that weren't they? No, not in that one, in another one, but there was a guy called Ansel Keys who ended up being something of a fraudster. But he was a scientist, a researcher, but he did a study. He was trying to figure out who were the healthiest populations in the world. And he started off looking at 21 countries. And so he had a hypothesis, which was more than this, but it was in a way, was like low fat eating equals low fat people. Or in other words, cutting out fats and saturated fats and lots of meat and nuts and butter and cutting all that out, that was the key, right? So low carb eating, sorry, high carb eating, low fat, protein, but mainly low fat. But anyway, so he did all this research and of the 21 papers, 14 of the papers, so 66 % give or take, refuted his hypothesis. and the rest were a little bit like on the borderline. So he cut the 14 countries out of his study and then said, I did a seven country study. and, you know, I mean, it's pretty well documented, but there was a lot of skullduggering bullshit. But anyway, my point is that for a long time, that's what I thought was true and real. And that was what I taught. That was how I advise people. You know, we had every gym and every dietician and every school almost had a food pyramid somewhere on the wall. And here it is, you lots of this and less of that, and less of that, and hardly any of that. But that was all misleading. But at the time, that was what we called unequivocal science. And people would get quite hysterical defending it. And the problem with that is when you've... When you've been a food pyramid and it could be anything, but because it's just an ideological stance, but when you've been a food pyramid person for 30 years and you've taught and told and trained thousands of people, then you realize that you've been wrong. Fuck that. Then I'm just going to be critical of whoever's critical of the food pyramid. Cause I know, yeah, I know I'm right. It's like, but sorry, Brian, you don't. Yeah. So that, you know, even when I talk about God and church, there's part of me that is quite uncomfortable and feels guilty. And I understand where that comes from. Because I spent most of my life or at least half of my life with absolute non-negotiable, absolute unequivocal beliefs, know, and certainty. And you go, could I be wrong? I could be, you know, did I get something wrong in this podcast? Probably three things. Is that okay? Yes. Yeah, like you said before, here's an idea. If you don't know, say I don't know. You don't have to pick a side. You don't have to be. You don't have to know. Have you always been the sort of person that has that philosophy where you're like, could be wrong here, or did you have a few hard lessons later on in life that taught you humility around that? I was, I was open-minded ish, but not like I am now. and because I grew up in my own echo chamber, right? So I, you know, confirmation bias where you only pay attention to what, confirms what you already think. So if you think like me, then I'm going to like you more. If you don't think like me, I'm not going to like you as much because you're going to challenge my thinking. And, and by the way, you'd be wrong, of course, cause I'm right, you know, so. Yeah, and I mean, I think without being too weird and deep, I did a big stock take on my own life and my own reality and existence when I was in my early 30s. I was cool. Yeah, but probably a couple of years later, like I was already doing quite well. I owned three gyms and I own two other bricks and mortar businesses. So I had five standalone premises and I had about a hundred staff and I was making all the businesses were making money and I was writing for the Herald Sun and I was working on radio and I was I was doing lots of cool things and I had lots of nice stuff right and in the middle of all of those things that were going well I was probably less happier than I'd ever been in my life and I'm like this is interesting which is not to say that that what was going on caused the lack of happiness but it was just interesting. was an awareness for me that, you know, I'm living in a nice house and I've got all these businesses and I'm in good shape and I've got biceps on my eyelids and I'm making good dough and all this great shit's going on. Why do I overthink everything? And why am I somewhat sad or disconnected or anxious or depressed? Not darkly and deeply, but periodically. Like from the outside looking in, Most people would have said, he's doing really well. They would have said, wow, he's successful. But the inside out experience was not that. So I just started to question things and think about things like what is my purpose? And I realized that while I'm not bad at making money and building businesses and being an entrepreneur, it's not, it's not my priority. And it doesn't, you know, I could have ended up, I don't know, opening. 20, 30, 40, I mean, I had five bricks and mortar businesses when I was 30, maybe 29. And then I reckon I could have 30 or 40 by the time I was 40 if I wanted, maybe, maybe not, but it just didn't, it didn't do it for me. And the stuff that did do it for me really didn't necessarily correlate with anything commercial at all. So there's that. in terms of service? Yeah, a little bit. mean, what is aside from religion, what is spiritual wealth? What is social wealth? What is emotional wealth? What is cognitive wealth? What is psychological or mental wealth? What are these things? What does that even mean? What does that look like for me? Like, why have I got all this money and all this misery? What is that about? And when you lean into that, you know, And which is like I said, it's not to say one caused the other. And it's not to say you can't build a brand and business and lots of dough and be happy. And yeah, of course, of course it doesn't. But that was just my experience. And I think I was. I think I was too externally focused. So I was all about, you know, in our culture, you think if somebody's talking about a successful person, they're never talking about the person who lives in a one bedroom flat and drives a 20 year old car, but they're wildly happy and content and fulfilled. They're never talking about that person. They're always... when my daughter was born, I bought all these books, they're Little People, Big Dreams. And it's a little children's book about the story of successful people. And it's all that, movie star, actor, business person, philanthropist, scientist, whatever. And then I sort of had a real, I mean, I became Christian. three and a bit years ago and then just having kids maybe really think about life. And I came to that same realization, I was like, these people aren't successful, they may be, but we're thinking about success in the wrong way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, that's you and me, right. And other people might go success for me is, and I would go, cool. You're not right or wrong. I'm not better or worse. We just, at where you're at and where I'm at right now. I was talking to somebody before and I said to them, if somebody said to me, harps tonight, you can go to Rod Laver arena and you can talk to 10,000 people for free, or you can walk across the road. and talk to 20 people for 10 grand, I'm going to go to Rod Laverena for free because I want to be able to connect with 10,000 people. I want to be able to do that. want to be able to, know, whatever gifts I have, which are not many, but whatever knowledge, whatever gift, whatever skill I have, I want to invest that in people, which sounds cheesy and cliche and I get it. And I understand if people don't believe that that's okay. But And this is gonna sound, it's probably a dangerous thing to say, but what I don't need, if we're talking about an absolute need, what I don't need is lots more money. Yeah. Doesn't mean I don't need money to pay the bills, but I'm not, I was once quite motivated by money. I'm not anymore. Like it matters. I want to pay the bills. I want to pay Melissa, who's my business manager and Tiff who works for me doing editing and things. Um, I need to pay them and look after them and I need to look after me. And, but, uh, you know, like I'm the lowest maintenance bloke, like you heard, don't drink, don't smoke, don't socialize. You know, I'm finishing my PhD. All I do is work and study and go for a run and go to the beach, which is 600 meters away and go to the gym and left heavy shit once a day. And like, I'm very like, I'm cheap in terms of maintaining my life. It's not expensive. So I don't need heaps of dough, you know, Yeah, mate, it's been great to chat to you. I really appreciate your perspectives and the way you go about it. What's obviously I'll put in the show notes, all the links to your podcasts and so forth. But I guess final question, what's the main things on your plate now? So I'm stumbling towards a finish line in my PhD and we're recording this mid March ish, 14th of March. And so I hope to have my PhD finished around June, July. After that, I'll tell you, you what I'm gonna do? This is a fun thing. I'm getting a puppy Luke. I'm very excited. I'm getting a puppy because hey, I was actually chatting to my wife earlier. She's throwing that idea around. We haven't spoken about a puppy in five years, but... Yeah. So I, I don't have time right now to train a puppy properly because my life is a bit chaotic. But once I've finished with my study, then also I live by myself. So perfect. You know, like the dog will get lots of attention. The dog will get lots of walks. I've had dogs before, but I haven't had dog for over a decade. so just, you know, it's like, Yeah, probably in no hurry to go and tick a lot more. But like I've got, I've got commercial things in the, like I've got speaking gigs booked for the next 18 months. So there's always stuff in the pipeline and, but in terms of hustling, grinding, growing, building, yeah, there's no hurry. It's not hurry at all. you know, I can sit out in my garden. I've got about a million bamboo trees and just sit in the bamboo and just read or listen to something. And I'm having a great time. So. Yeah. I don't... I'm not that... I'm probably more curious than I am ambitious at this stage. What are you most curious about? human potential. Yeah, what we can do, what we can do when we get out of our way, what I can do, what you can do, you know, and it's tough because what's tough and it's not, but I think for most people, and this is very much a generalization everybody, this is not based on research, this is based on anecdotal evidence and my background training. 50, 60,000 PT sessions. I think the biggest practical challenge for people living in first world relative first world luxury. So let's discount people living in absolute poverty and the story would be different there. But for us, I think our biggest challenge is managing our mind. How do I manage my mind? Because my mind is the control room for my life. It is my operational HQ. And if you can't manage your mind, can't manage your choices, your reactions, your behaviors, and by virtue of all of that, your outcomes. So try to understand your mind. And my, my PhD is essentially in a version of that. Trying to understand your mind and manage your mind and have your mind work for you rather than you work for it and understand that you are not your mind and it is not you and finding the space between it and you. And I know we're getting weird now, but You know that I meet people all the time, Luke, who are way smarter than me and more talented than me, who are just not using any of it. And, you know, I feel I really want them to do well. Yeah, awesome. Well, thanks for sharing your insights with my audience. If I can point a few of them your way, then that's a blessing out of this and I look forward to following it and all the best for the next, what is it? March, April, well, we got a couple of months and the rest knock over the PhD. Thank you, man. And to all your Christian listeners, I apologize for the swearing. I think, I think any of my listeners are pretty used to that. Don't worry. Thanks, mate. Good man. Thank you.