What's The Point Anyway?
It seems like much of the Western world is lost. The interesting trend over the last few years is that more and more people are working that out.
More people have worked out that endless materialism and chasing things that never actually satisfy us aint it.
So what’s the point of it all, anyway?
What's The Point Anyway?
Episode #33 - Greg Chacon's tumultuous journey from being a teenage gangster to speaking in tongues & casting out demons
A few months ago a friend said to me that I need to reach out to this guy Greg Chacon, because he was a true unicorn in his theology with a crazy backstory. Greg lived as a gangster in his teenage years, getting kicked out of multiple schools and spending prolonged periods of time incarcerated. Then at 17 he began a journey of discover which ultimately led him to find God. In his worship of God, just like his life beforehand, he hasn't done anything in halves and is someone that you'd describe as being all in. He has a high opinion of personal experiences and despite holding to preterist eschatology where the common view on supernatural things like demons and spiritual gifts is that they ceased in 70AD, Greg has experienced and believes in things like speaking in tongues and casting out demons. He has extensive personal experience dealing with demons in exorcism situations, which to be honest is a practice that I myself am very skeptical of. In Christian circles, Greg can be quite controversial and he's never afraid of getting into a debate to reiterate his opinions.
However, this was a great discussion which went on for almost 2 hours because rather than denying Greg's experiences or trying to debate him on them, I tried to get a better understanding of what he believes and in doing so I learned a lot.
Whether I ended up agreeing with Greg on everything is irrelevant, but I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to be blown away by the story of a man who has had a crazy journey and speaks from the heart about what he stands for.
Check out Greg's content at https://www.youtube.com/@PastorGreg1.
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Yeah, perfect. So you're all set up. Yeah. I'm all good. yes. And let me see, cause I, it's picking up my mic, right? Not my. Yeah, it does. It's the sounds really good. So I'm guessing it is your mic. It's not just your own. Yeah. Perfect. Well, man, I'm, yeah. So I'm really, I'm really excited to chat to you. We've sort of, you've been on my radar for ages and we've been chatting back and forth. So I'm glad we finally found the time. for many reasons, I think, cause I, you know, I think I agree with you a lot. There's definitely some, you know, I think you definitely hold some, somewhat controversial positions a lot of people disagree with. So I think that'll make for some interesting conversation. And then from what I know of your backstory, you've had a pretty crazy story to get here. So there's a, yeah, there's lots of different places we can go in this channel. And I'll just, I guess we'll just see where we end up. Absolutely man, I'm all for it. starting question, which I guess is the same for everyone. When you hear what's the point anyway, how do you answer that? So what's the point of life? Do you want a short answer or a more extended answer? whatever comes to your mind. I would say in the short answer, the shortest answer that I can provide for that is to glorify God. I think that God does all things for His glory. And that might sound like a narcissistic or egotistical claim or statement from an individual that thinks naturally that doesn't think with the biblical worldview. Yeah. but understanding the, know, presupposing a biblical worldview. That is the most loving thing that a maximally great, omnibenevolent God can do is to create creatures that will delight in Him for His glory. And as, don't know what your faith tradition is, I am an individual of multiple streams of thought. you know, people ask me, what am I? and I just say I'm a central biologist because I have, I've connected, I've collected, you know, honey, so to speak from multiple different flowers. I, am influenced, you know, with Pentecostal background and thought, and also with Orthodox and Catholic beliefs and, Preterist beliefs and so on and so forth. And so anyways, I don't know what faith tradition you are in, but, and what writers and readers who you have read, but John Piper, who is of the reform tradition, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him at all. Well, he's... I'm a bit of a mixed bag too. Yeah, maybe. a Calvinist. I'm not a Calvinist. I used to be, but he says that we, God is most glorified in us when we're most satisfied in him. And so I think the highest aim of humanity of, know, of existence is to enjoy God and for God to enjoy us and be pleased by us. in the sense of keeping His commandments, of entering into covenant with Him through Jesus Christ. And so in short, the point of existence at the most fundamental level, an ultimate level, is to glorify God. And then of course that man can't answer that question. Mmm. It has to be divinely given and is given via revelation, know, revelation through Jesus Christ, revelation through the Holy Spirit, revelation through the sacred scriptures, right? And so, that revelation of how we glorify God is contained within the new covenant, contained within the teachings of Jesus Christ. And so that would be. You made an interesting point there that actually came up this week. So I think you've had some back and forth with him maybe on Facebook, but I was on Alan Bondar's show a few days ago and you know, he's part of a group of which, you know, there's a bunch of them now. They're sort of like ex-Christian sort of atheists that are pretty hardcore against Christianity and a common thing. that I hear from those guys is that, you know, the God of the Bible is, is, you know, a crazed narcissist and why would you worship this God who just demands worship himself? So what, like you touched on that idea of it sounding narcissist. I love you maybe to respond to that criticism and then maybe talk a bit about how it could be seen as narcissistic and why you don't think it is narcissistic. Yeah, man. So, you one of the things you pointed out, I'm pretty controversial, a big part for that. And, and to, you know, and, know, I have to be cautious because sometimes I can over speak, but I tend to speak my mind and I would say dudes like that are narcissists. And the reason why, and the reason why I say that is because at the end of the day, you're going to worship something. At the end of the day, you're going to commit to something. At the end of the day, you're going to make somebody, whether it's you, your family, or basketball or football or pornography, you're going to make that the end all be all. And we are victims. We're slaves to our passions. And so it's not a matter of, of whether we will worship or not. It's a matter of what we will worship and if that subject is worthy of our worship. And so going back to the claim that I made earlier about God being omnibenevolent, presupposing that, assuming that that is true and assuming that man's the highest, if God is in fact the greatest good, Mm-hmm. You know, as St. Anselm said, he is no greater than that which can be conceived. He's a maximally great being. And if on the condition that we worship that great being, our lives become good, then that is not a narcissistic thing because if our failure to worship this good God leads to our detriment, our destruction, our demise, then this loving God who commands out of his care for humanity, his love for humanity to worship him. And in that man's safety is procured, man's peace is procured, man's joy is discovered. Then it's not a narcissistic claim. If I say, in other words, like, Yo, don't smoke crack, go to the gym, right? And that, that, or don't do these bad things that will destroy your life and do this instead that will save your life. Then how is that narcissistic? How is that egotistical? Now I understand the difference is that God is, know, man's good is procured in his worship of this, of God. But, If man doesn't get anything out of it, if man isn't saved, if man is not helped, if man is just viewed as a puppet in the worship of said deity, then I can see that being narcissistic. But if man receives fullness of joy, as the Bible says, in his presence, there's fullness of joy and his right hand or pleasures forevermore. There's this mutual love relationship. Hmm. that, that, you know, and so I see nothing, nothing narcissistic about it, you know, and, furthermore men and women, we as human beings, we also want to be loved. We want to be, enjoyed whether we will say that or not, whether we'll confess it or not. It's it's human. It's it's human experience. And so I think that, It's nothing that's foreign to us to desire relationship and, and God also desires relationship. If it's not narcissistic for us, why is it narcissistic for God to desire love? Right. I had a conversation actually, it was actually with a priest recently, who made a really good point on it that like, as, as humans, can experience as you know, a small example of what the Bible says that God did with creation in terms of the act of creation ourselves. So when a man and a wife get together and have children, it's the ultimate act of love. And you're doing and And you're doing that, that you get something out of it that you are going to love. It's the creation of a relationship. So I think that gives us an insight. And I think also you made a really good point about like the presupposition that the created God is ultimately good because that's where it's different to like a flawed human who's the dictator of a particular country who demands worship. Of course that's narcissistic because you're worshiping someone who is flawed themselves, but, you can't really have, you know, I think, and I think this is a claim that some of these sort of anti-Christians make that, you have like a, if, if you agree that there is a creator, well, then that creator can't really be flawed. Like it makes sense that they are perfect. They have to be perfect. You know, so, so to worship them is to. into the closest example of perfection within this, within that creation. Yeah, you know, and in fact, you bring up a good point about that, about the creator being perfect. You know, if God is not our object of worship, as I mentioned earlier, somebody will. And we see man, when man does it, like Frederick Nietzsche, who says, you know, if you don't begin with God, there's no left, there's no right, there's no up and down. And so, you know, this notion of worship, can't be avoided. default to worship, to either worshiping a God or desiring to be worshiped ourselves. And, and so, now we find people that try to worship, you know, say in, and these other routes, which lead to oppression and bondage that lead to demise, that lead to destruction. And so no matter which way you look, if you don't start with the true biblical God, every other route leads to destruction. And so if you look, I mean, just look at social media, you know, a lot of the people that promote themselves, that advertisers themselves, they want to be worshiped. They want others to be in all of them. And Now I'm repulsed by that because at the end of the day, who are you? A fallen creature, a fallen individual who makes mistakes that is no higher than I, you know, we're all stand as equal human beings. and so, you know, something like that, I can see it as narcissistic, but if in fact you are inherently awe inspiring and maximally great and all good and every attribute. that captures goodness is God's essential properties, then I see nothing inherently narcissistic about that. I see it incumbent upon us to yield such worship to this great God. And in fact, know, one of the things that what's interesting about atheists is because I think sometimes we just allow them to go, you know, go free. with claims like that. Okay. So by what standard are you judging what narcissism is? Where do you get this idea? And what's so repugnant and repulsive about narcissism, according to your worldview, how do you justify knowledge? How do you justify aesthetics? How do you justify the good and the beauty, apart from God? And so if you can't justify that, then your statements become utterly meaningless. can't criticize it. That's... Yeah. if you don't start with the moral lawgiver, then there is no more law. If there's no more law than by what standard are you differentiating bad and good, evil, righteous. can't even advance in your criticism. And meanwhile, they also want to borrow from our worldview and say, wow, that's amazing. That's beautiful. That's glorious. As they stand, perhaps, you know, unless you're like some, you know, postmodern radical, you know, feminists, you're not going to really appreciate wonderful cathedrals out in Europe. You know, you know, you, I mean, that's just kind of where we are as a society, you know, with a lot of the, you know, they, think, crap is art. but you know, look at, You know, these wonderful cathedrals, there's something awe inspiring about that, you know, and, and, and that's what man is able to achieve. Right. And, and yet we give men their proper credit, but, know, again, if there's no God, then you're standing in all of these cathedrals and, whatever you would make of, of the claim, awesome, that's awesome, or that's amazing. It's just utterly futile and meaningless, you know, according to an atheistic worldview. You're trying to borrow from Christian worldview. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too, basically. yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree because I mean, I was, and I think your journey's, potentially similar, but I was atheist through most of my twenties, even into my early thirties. So, and really where I got to with my worldview at that time and looking back at it now is I think you, if you're going to be intellectually honest, you have to get towards more or less existentialism. And existentialism is that there is no meaning, but you are free to create your own version of meaning. And that's what I did. it's, you know, this is good, this is bad, this is beautiful, this is not. you really have no basis to say that yours is the correct one over someone else's. It's just, it's everyone creating their own meaning. So I do find, I find the sort of anti-Christian criticism against God of saying, well, how could you worship God who does this, this and that, which is bad. Well, why is it bad? Why is it good? Why is it bad? Like on what, on what basis can you do that? And then this, know, they have to end up getting to a point where they'll at least can see, there's, um, there's some sort of level of morality, which we all believe in or adhere to, you know, well, that doesn't really make any sense in an existentialist worldview. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and I mean, at the end of the day, you, you know, again, either existentialism or when it comes to, you know, morality, it's, it's relative, you know, relativism is, is true. You know, we're all entitled to our own moral code and moral compass, but you know, on that view, nothing is truly objectively binding. Nothing is truly absolute. Yeah. And so, at best they, they, you know, they're entitled to their opinion. That doesn't have any objective grounding. I don't like that. That's not a preference for me, but, okay. But preference again on atheism, it's not something that is bad. know, it's, it's not something that is objectively and absolutely bad. And so you can't, you know, You don't really have any, as you said, basis to set as the stand on. And so that kind of undercuts, you know, any, any, you know, strengths to their argument. but aside from that though, you know, my, my pursuit to worship God, my life, the, the, the free will decision I made to. make the God of the Scriptures my object of worship has only led for my own good and for the good of others because, you know, I didn't grow up in a It let me, I just want to ask real quick. Did, did my mic successfully mute? Okay. Because I, you know, I have a bad respiratory problems and allergies and stuff. so I'll be muting it periodically just so I don't, know, um, but yeah, so like, I didn't grow up in a religious household. I didn't grow up a Christian. I didn't grow up, you know, going to church. Um, And, you know, I, I grew up, you know, raised by a crank addict mother and then an alcoholic abusive father. And, you know, they divorced at five years old when I was five years old. And, uh, you know, the, the make a long story short, you know, at a young age, you know, in my teens, I lived a reckless, uh, life of crime and drug addiction, drug sales. you know, and I was just a minister to society. you know, was a ex, I'm an ex-felon. Mm-hmm. And, you know, the, the life that I lived caused a lot of people harm, caused myself harm, my family members harm. And, you know, the, where my state of mind was, was a very violent kid, you know, as, as young as 14 and 15, 16, you know, had history of arrests and getting locked up, carrying weapons, you know, committing home invasions. And, and, and, know, selling, selling drugs for a gang. you know, even though I wasn't a part of that, a part of the gang, but that was just how I made money just to continue to, sustain my, my drug addiction. But I remember, you know, in my mind, I'm like, man, you know, I want to, I want to die with, with women around me under my arms. with drugs in my right hand and alcohol on my left. That was my mindset. And so I had no intention on living righteous. Now why I bring that up is because of God having pulled me up out of that muck and mire, pulled me up out of that dark lifestyle. It had to be divine in my view. And it had to be because... I had no intention on being moral, you know, because I got programmed. I got, you know, programmed by, by drug counseling, anger management, you know, probation did all that stuff and none of it worked. Fear didn't work. Threats didn't work. Incarceration didn't work. And so, but I had to do. in there, like when you were in the depths of that, did you enjoy, like did you enjoy your life? yeah, I did. In the sense of like, I mean, because it was pleasurable. it was very pleasurable. mean, and I don't know, man, I had a warped mind, you know? And so getting with a bunch of girls, you know, partying all the time and, know, I, kind of had like a, I guess you can say like a street name, like street cred. And so. Living on that ego, the fuel of that ego kind of contributes to this, this sense of, you know, the pride of life, the lust of the flesh and the lusty eyes. And it's what man in his fallen condition loves. That's what I loved. And, you know, I was also, you know, a good street fighter and all this stuff. and, you know, I mean, I'm not saying like, you know, I was the greatest looking kid, but also wasn't ugly, you know? And so. you know, kind of living, you know, with all of that, you you kind of become rich in the goods of ghetto fame or in the rich, you know, the rich in the goods of sensuality and pleasure and, you know, just this hedonistic lifestyle. And so in that regard, yeah, I did. But as time had progressed and as I had gotten older, you know, I really felt the brunt of my decisions. And I got tired of it. I got really tired of, you know, at the age of 17, I started suffering from hot sweats, like waking up, paranoia, you know. always constantly looking over my back, whether it was, you know, for cops or whether it was someone that I feared was going to, you know, you know, catch me slipping one day. And so it just, the, the drugs or just the night for the lost all year? Yeah. that really, you know, and I remember at one time, because, you know, what led to my conversion in Christ. was that a lot of series of events were happening back to back to back that, you know, caused fear in my life, fear of losing my life or fear of me taking another individual's life. And, and I just knew that I was living on borrowed time and that I was going to either. you know, end up in the hospital or end up in prison for many years and my life, what was going to be of my life, you know? And so, to, make a long story short, what, what, you know, to use biblical language, it was the fleeting pleasures of sitting for a season, you know? So it, it, it, it pleased me for a little while, but then when, you know, it had come to collect payment, I felt like, yeah, I'm robbed. don't enjoy this stuff anymore. I'm tired of this stuff. I'm sick of this lifestyle. I'm sick of the fruit that is bringing me, which essentially is death. know, the wages of sin is death. And so. that it starts to turn from like pleasure to just being a real grind. Yeah. So it was 17. you know, because like at 14, 15, 16, it was just pure enjoyment and it was pure enjoyment. And, even though, you know, there was consequences here and there, but it wasn't until I turned 17 that I really began to feel a heaviness, like a, no pressure. you know, I started. not even like an adult at this point. Yeah. And, and then I also started like having nightmares of going to hell and mind you, nobody preached to me. Nobody told me, come to church. You know, I didn't have anybody put a religious pamphlet in my hand. I just knew, I just felt intuitively like there was a God that, that, that, yeah, called me out of it and, and warned me through these things. And that if I didn't give my life to him, that I was going to die or something bad was going to happen in my life. Now I did have one experience though, when I was locked up and maybe it was the seed that was planted, that was coming to fruition at this point. I remember reading the Bible and now mind you, I mean, I stopped reading when I was like in sixth grade. I just read like little, you know, a book here and there. but really I only, I only read like one chapter book from all of elementary, but from junior high on, like I really just stopped focusing in school. And then in high school, got expelled out of like eight different high schools. so, you know, I wasn't literate. I wasn't a red person. I wasn't articulate. I just wasn't, you know, an academic individual to say the least, but when I was locked up, I read the Bible. How are we, so were you locked up in, like was it youth penitentiary? Yeah. Yeah. And you're living out of home at that point too. yeah, so I, I kinda, because my, my, I was living with my dad and my relationship with him was so rocky. like where it got physical and, know, where, you know, sadly to, my own shame, you know, under the influence I had KO'd my own dad and, and that's how physical it would get. so. I didn't want to be home, so I'd always be kicking at like one of my homies house, you know, this trap house or this house over here or wherever, you know, because I just wanted to be, I wanted to live free and do whatever I wanted to do. And so yes, technically that was my place of residence, but practically speaking, I was always out somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but when I did get locked up and I read, I just, mean, you, all you got in there is time. And so I opened up the Bible. Mind you, nobody told me, yo, this is the word of God. Like you can't open, pray, you know, just open this up, pray, Lord speak to me type of stuff. I didn't know any of that. And all I knew was like, man, like, my God, it's time. So I'm gonna just open up this book and start reading. And I felt like the book was reading me. was like, yo, what? I was tripping out like what's going on here? And see that's why. to finish or did you just sort of open random pages and... Well, it was like a little Gideon's Bible. I just, I just, I just opened it up to, was it Mark or Matthew, excuse me. And so, and, you know, and mind you again, I don't know anything. Obviously I know like, cause living in America, you can't live in America and not know about Jesus to some extent. You know, I knew that Jesus existed and despite how wicked I lived, always, I never opposed God. I would never speak against God. In fact, I almost got in a fight, I almost chunked him with this person in high school, because we had this little in-class debate and there were some atheists. it's like, the teacher said, you know, hey, those who believe in God go this side. Those who don't believe in God go on this side and have a little debate. And so this girl, she just bumping her gums, talking bad about God. was like, heck no. You know, I just started, I don't know what I was saying, honestly, but like, I think I started cussing around and this other dude got it. I was like, well, what's up, man? Let's check them after school, man. Let's what's good. You know, like that was my mindset. Like you ain't going to talk about God and you know, I don't know. just, um, you know, my, my dad, he was somewhat conservative in his values and, believed in God. And so I think that kind of by proxy. Yeah. know, I, kind of rubbed off on me, even though again, like I said, and grow up in church and reading the Bible and all that stuff. But when I, when I did open up the Bible, I was tripping out. was like, it felt supernatural. And I didn't have a reference point or a category in my mind for that. Like, Hey, you could, the, word of God is living in active sharper than any two edged sword. The word is, is prophetic by nature. The spirit of God can't. Now, I don't know how much of what I'm saying you agree with, but this has been my experience. And so when all these little fuddy duddies, know, ex-full-preterist and all this stuff say, you know, it's just a made up book or whatever, whatever the heck they want to say, nobody can tell me this ain't real because of where I was, the route that I was going and just my, the radical experiences that I had. And, but yeah, so. And I remember flipping to Luke chapter 22. Luke chapter 21, I believe verse 15. Well, verse 14 says, will appear before kings and rulers and judges on account of me. I was like, yo, I'm in, I'm on trial. I'm going to court for what? And I was like, how does Bick know I'm going to court? He says, don't worry about what you shall say a four time for God will give you, I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries can gain, say nor contradict. And so check this out. So my dad, he was an abusive alcoholic. My, my defense attorney knew that. And, but, you know, and, the prosecutor did as well, the, the, the district attorney and, and he brought up in court that according to my admission, my father was abusive because they were going to, they were going to, you know, have mercy on me. Cause I was facing like two felony counts and three misdemeanors, along with all of my priors of weapon charges, assault charges. I just had an extensive history. And so I was going to face a good amount of time as a minor. But they were going to have mercy on me and say, you know what, he can go back home with his dad. But the district attorney said, no, by his own admission, what led him to this lifestyle was the aggression and the violence and the physical, you know, abusive, ways of, of his father, right? They're like, okay, so that's not the best deal. Now at this time, my mom was still alive and she, she was no longer on, on crank. And, but because my mom and dad had divorced at an earlier age, when I was five, my dad put a restraining order on my mom because he didn't want my mom around me. So they were going to allow me to go to my mom, but legally I couldn't. Mm-hmm. And so it wasn't until the last day that my sister, who by the way, just turned 18 and that's the, you know, I believe you're in Australia, that's the illegal age for adulthood here. She was I could take care of him. And her boyfriend was like in the military and he had a good paying job. Well, he was, had an honorable discharge. He had, you know, a good amount of money coming to him. Wonderful home. And so the judge said a review. for an evaluation of their home and all their background and all that. See if they were, able to take care of me, if this was a wise decision. But I say all that because leading up to that and how all the odds were against me. And so I didn't script anything. I didn't try to say, you know what? I'm going to appeal this. I'm going to say this to the judge. I'm going say this. All I remember these words stick, you know, leaping off the page to say, don't think about what you'll say. I will give you a wisdom. I will give you a mouth. And so I was like, all right. And I remember even like when I'm in there, I'm a little tempted to like, no, let me rehearse this. No, no, no, no, no. Remember you read that in the book. So I was like, got a note. I just shut my, the volume of my mind off. I'm a just, just wing it, you know, on trial. And I was on trial for quite a while. And so, but the last day of my trial, they said they ended up releasing me and was wild is like, I remember and all shackled up from, you know, on my arms and my ankles, all in the jumpsuit and all that. And the, the bailiff who's taken me from the court back to my cell to get all my stuff and they're going to process me and get all, know, get me situated. On the way back, man, he looks at me, he stops me, looks me dead in the eye. He's like, I hate people like you. I wish you were still locked up. I was like, yo, that's, that's, that's wild, man. But anyways, like I always stuck with me. I'm like, man, that's people like that. That's, that's, no, no, no mercy, only judgment, you know, but long story short, I got out and, and, so that to me was a miracle in itself, but that's not what converted me. Cause I went back out and lived however I wanted live the lifestyle that I, you know, continued to pursue. Went back on to that stuff. So at, you know, by the age of 17, um, I, uh, I'm finally, this is where I'm beginning to feel that oppression and heaviness and, um, just weariness from the lifestyle that I was living. um, you know, um, so. Yeah. Did you ask a question? I'm sorry. I lost my train of thought. I forget what the question was, but I was enjoying the train. So I think it was ultimately about your conversion. maybe, I mean, just keep going. It's good stuff. man. Let me, let me share that. Let me share my conversion. How that, if you don't Yeah. So, um, so when I was locked up, that was like 15, 16 and, and I got released, you know, run my course for a while, still, you know, living that lifestyle. And so I'm about 17, 17 and a half, whatever. And, you know, I've had a number of run ins where. you know, whether it was, you know, enemies that could have had done something bad to me or, or, or stupid stuff that I was doing crimes that I was committing. And, and, you know, and also, you know, like, sexual relations that I had, I began to feel like ugly for doing those things out of nowhere. I began to feel real filthy and ugly for all those things that I was doing. And it was creating the to have, your conscience is sort of starting to take over. Yeah. Feel anything, Mm-hmm. and so I think that God, by God's providence, my conscience is beginning to awake. because I remember even one night or one day, you know, I went to like to the like, local place and you know, I, you know, I ended up picking up on somebody and, so some, some lady and. you know, did what I did, you know, being vague, because I don't like to go into all this stupid detail. But I remember after that, for the first time in my life, you know, this wasn't like my first rodeo. I remember I stopped in the middle of it and I was like, I started crying. And I was like, and like, you know, she flipped out like, what are you crying about? Are you crying? I was like, I can't do this. I feel violated. I feel nasty. I feel filthy. And so I was like, no, I gotta go. gotta go. mind you, was drunk too. And so I remember walking back to my pad. I was living with a friend at this time and I call him up and I was crying. He's like, bro, you crying? He's like, man, just come through. We're drinking and all this. I was like, man, I don't even feel like doing that. And, you know, and, and, um, and so I just started, I started feeling guilty for the things that I was doing. I was feeling ugly about the things that I was doing. And then to top that off, I've, you know, it's having, um, you know, like I said, those parent paranoia and night sweats and, and stuff like that and, and dreams of going to hell and all that. So anyways, um, I, I think it might've been my space at the time. I don't know if I posted something or a friend of mine posted something that I tried to sell drugs to back in high school. I, and I tried selling to him and he's like, man, I don't, I don't be doing that stuff, man. got Jesus. And I was like, man, like you a fool. Like, man, you're, you whack bro. Like, you know, like, you know, that's how my mindset was at the time. And so that always stuck with me. was like, I'm going to talk to this dude, see if I can go to church with him. And, and, um, so. Um, I reached out to him. said, bro, I need God, And he's like, um, he's all, yeah, he's a man. Uh, yeah, that'd be awesome. He said, bro, where you live at? He said, me and my pops will pick you up and see one of the things too, about the world that I was living in with drug addicts and criminals and, and, and gangsters are all these different types of people that are, are just no, no good moral standards. It's like a dog eat dog world. Yeah. Everybody's out for sale. Everybody's trying to, they're grimy, trying to steal off you, trying to get you, you know, and, and even when my own homeboys that we're supposed to be tight with, they were supposed to have my back, were very greedy, you know, wouldn't really wouldn't do very, you know, very many favors or especially financial favors for, for me. And so in my little world, the fact that they would go out of their way, You know, the pick me up. Cause mind you, you know, it's not like I'm some big, you know, kingpin or like Scarface with millions of dollars. I'm not, we're just little, you know, street thugs and with, you know, chump change. And so, you know, the, the, the, the homie that I did that I knew that did have a car every time I wanted to go, somebody's like, Hey man, you want to smoke me out? Or you got, you got some ends, you know, you got some gas money. That was always a question. So. first time in my life really being exposed to a Christian and he was so eager to pick me up like that to me, just it meant a lot to me. He wasn't even aware of it, but it meant a lot to me and it was very foreign to me. And yeah, exactly. Just that, that active service, that kindness, that servitude. And then the church was out in like a different town from the town that I'm in. they're driving. To my pad, pick me up, take me there. Everybody's nice. Everybody is almost everybody. Cause there, there was a couple that, really didn't greet me well and I'll go into that. But for the most part, a lot of them were happy and they're greet me and they had smiles on their face. And there was just like this light around their countenance that I wasn't familiar with. And in my mind, I'm thinking. They're not high. They're not drunk. There's no substance to make them lively. So what is it about them? What's making them tick? so, and mind you, oftentimes on Sundays, I was just got done partying on Saturday. Yeah. And, and cause I'm still bound to this stuff. And so I'll wake up like, man, I need to go to church. And so I'll go hang hung over, you know, hickeys on my neck, all tore up. But you know, I'm still, there's a part of me that wants a change. There's a part of me that wants God. There's a part of me that don't want to be in this rut anymore. And so he said, balancing both lifestyles for a period. Yeah. Yeah. So it was probably about like a month because, because, or maybe a month and a half, because during that month or month and a half, and then every time I go to church, I'm hearing this preacher and I feel like everything that I've been going through, keeps talking about. And I ended up tripping out on the dude that invited me and you know, his name is Noe. I was like, Hey dude, what's up, bro? Like I told you all this stuff not to tell him. Why did you tell him on my business, bro? He's on nine, man. That's the Holy ghost. And I was like, cause he was like a very, you know, extraverted person. He talks loud and he's very hyper. He's on now, man. That's the Holy ghost. And I was like, he's speaking to you. was like, well, you didn't tell him. He's on now, man. That's God getting a hold of you. I was like, Whoa. And so the Lord was working on me even more at that time. And then I feel like. One of the last things, we done like hit a lick on this store. We were stupid, man. Like back to back, like three times in a row, stealing a bunch of bottles and beers and stuff like that. And on the third time I got, the cops were already, right when we're actually in the store, the cops were right there. And so I thought I was going to outsmart them. like, man, these dudes, they got a distance to run. So I'm going to run in the back of the store and hide behind the dumpster. And so let the cops pass by, but they were viewing from the cameras and signs like, he's just right there in the dumpster. they ended up arresting me and they're like asking me, are you on probation? I was like, yes, I am. And well, anyways, man, they gave me a slap on the wrist. And they're like, we're going to, and at this time I got kicked out of the dude's house that I told you I was living at because I tried to fight him because I was a very violent drunk. Mm-hmm. I tried fighting him and he kicked me out. So, I'm staying with my, with my mom at this time, but under the table, because, know, legally I wasn't able to, but it was just the only place that had left to stay. And so this was probably about like one in the morning when the cops, you know, arrested me and they had taken me to my mom's house. And they say, if nobody answers, we're taking you in and we're going to violate you. Yeah. So right now we're giving you this window of mercy. And I was like, okay. And so nobody was answering. And the reason why, man, because my mom's husband, which wasn't my father, but it was, know, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was smoking a lot of meth. And so he was always tweaked out and paranoid. So he sees cops at his house and he's awake at the time. He's not answering. Yeah. But they stayed there knocking and knocking. I'm in the back of the police car and I got handcuffs behind me. I'm like, Lord. I said, look, I know I deserve to go in. I said, but if, and nobody's answering. I said, I deserve to go in, God. I'm drunk and I'm praying. And I said, if you're willing to get me out of this situation, because at this point, all the other crazy negative stuff already happened. Mm. And I'm, I'm going to church at this time, but I just, I wasn't, I wasn't free from all of that. I said, I'm, I'm in, I'm throwing in the towel. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm already sick of this anyways. And so, and so as they're walking back, I was like, all right, I guess I'm going in Lord. I deserve it. Then the door opens. And so they ended up releasing me. They're like, well, you know, someone answered the door, you know, And, so I got, I got Scott Freeman. didn't violate me until my probation officer or anything. But anyways, that, that was kind of, you know, one of the last wake up calls, I'm like, I really don't want to do this anymore, especially because God is already calling me and I feel this work in my heart, you know, as I'm attending church and everything. And, and so what broke. the straw that broke the camel's back. So I remember that old, you know, that brother in the Lord that invited me to the church, his name was Noe, he said, man, you go on a youth camp. in my mind, like at the time I was like, man, that sounds gay. Like I don't wanna sleep with a bunch of dudes. You know, I was like, man, like youth camp. And so in my mind, that's what I was thinking. But I told him, I was like, bro, I don't got no money. Cause it was like 250 bucks. I was like, I ain't got no money. It just says an excuse. He's like, man, don't even trip. God will provide, man. Don't even trip. And so I'm like, whatever that means. And so I remember probably about two weeks later is I'm sitting in the pew. This guy is like preaching. He's preaching. He's on you, Greg. He's all the Lord provided for you to go to youth camp. Someone paid $250 for you to go. I was like, wow. And then he, and then no, he looks at me. He's like, told you God will provide. And so there was like this random kid that, um, wasn't even going to church for what, I don't know if someone told him, but somehow he caught wind that this, this Doug was going to church. And I was wanting to give my life to God. So he decided to pay. Right. And, um, so he paid $250. And again, you know, for, for, you know, adults, uh, you know, depending on how much money we make, I mean, it's a, it's a good chunk of money, right. You know, but it's not, it's not like tens of thousands of dollars, but to me as a young minor, you know, you know, from the world that I was living in of greed and, and ugliness that, that, that meant a lot to me. And that was another seed that was planted because I seen the kindness in the church. I seen the joy in the church, the sense of meaning that they had and purpose that they had and care that they had for strangers. But yeah, the reason that I told you that I was gonna mention those two people. Because one day I came in, I walked in the church, it was probably about like my second time. And I'm I'm smoking outside the church and I'm not saying that people should do that. But you know, and like I got all hickeys on my neck and stuff. And then these two older ladies, they see me and they one taps them on the shoulder and they start whispering and saying negative stuff about me. And I tell Noe, I was like, hey bro, man, you better go check them right now. Cause if not, I'm going go walk over and create a scene in this whole church right now. You And, um, he's like, nah, man, don't even trip about them, man. They whack anyways, man. You know, and, so I was like, he calmed me down, you know, but that was just how far like unethical, you know, I was as a person to, you know, uh, um, so anyways, fast forward and now I'm going to youth camp. The day is set for me to go to youth camp and I'm going with my church, right? But I'm a part of this denominate this, organization that has other local churches in my town and, in, nearby towns and nearby cities. We are in one sector. It is an international denomination. I, I, it was a Pentecostal denomination and so it was international, but we had this sector where, you know, every so often we would all meet together locally. And a larger church and, know, worship the Lord and have youth events and stuff like that. But at this youth camp, all the, the, the churches for all the youth from those sectors are there. And I'm new to all this. Nobody from any of these sectors know me. nobody only, only that brother in the Lord that invited me out and was kind of connecting me to the Lord. Yeah. And so why I mentioned that, because it's relevant to the point that I'm going to make. So the first night, you know, um, he's already hyping me up and he's a man. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be awesome, bro. Like, you know, it's going to be amazing. And so I'm like, okay, you know, I'm praying God, you know, do something in my life, whatever, you know, I'm not no prayer warrior. I don't really even know what the pray. can't tell you, I can't quote John three 16 to save my life. This is how ignorant I am. Yeah. Did you, did you, did you feel like at that point you truly like, had you reached the point of, of believing? No. Yeah. So I believed, but nothing about my heart. No, felt different. Nothing about my values and my, my, my, still craved and lusted for all these foul things. And I'm trying my hardest not to cave into all that, you know? And, and, and so at this point, at that point, when I'm at youth camp, I did cut out the alcohol. Or I might have rationalized it say, know what? I'm just not gonna get drunk. Let me just you know, have a few I don't know, but I know one of the last things You know was that and all that, you know rap music I was listening all the like gangster rap stuff and all that negative music and cigarettes and and you know, and I'm not saying that some of the smoke cigarettes are gonna be kept out of the kingdom of God, but but I just wanted nothing to do with any of that. And, and so my heart, feels the same. My mindset feels the same. Everything feels the same. And here's the other thing too. They told me that this was another central part of, a key part about where my mind was at, because they told me, and I know there's debates within the Christian realm about this. They told me that unless I was baptized in Jesus' name, then I'm not saved. So they, I don't believe that anymore. I don't believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, but that's where my mind was. And so I wasn't baptized yet. So I was like, I don't, I don't have salvation because I don't know anything to really contest about what they're saying. You know, all I know is like, just want to leave this world behind and be introduced to the world that you guys are telling me about. Now I, and then two other people from my local church were, they were also seekers. And one of them was like this gangster kid. They weren't baptized. They weren't serving the Lord. They were visitors, but, but they ended up attending to why that bring, why that bring that up? Cause this is kind of funny. Um, and so the first, the first day there, um, that, gangster dude, he's smack talking one of the sisters that sings in the church and he's calling her a beep in this beep in that. And like, and so still being, you know, my mindset at the time, I was like, Oh man, I can't let that slide. You're going to make me chunk them with you right here at the youth camp, man. And so I was like, Oh heck no. I was like, why don't you say that to my face, dude? And so. And he's like, beep you blah, blah, blah, whatever. I was like, all right, man, you got to catch my fate right now. Let's go. And so I threw my hands up. He threw his hands up and I'm squaring up and stuff. And then some counselors run in the middle. It was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, And thankfully they didn't kick me out. Now he's, he told me, he's like, Hey man, you better watch your back. Now I don't know if he was all bluff and all fluff, but he said, you better watch your back, man. Keep your eyes open. Cause I'm a slice your throat when you go to sleep. Cause I'm a cut you. And. In my mind, I'm hearing, you know, because that was like straight holiness church. They harped on repent. You're to go to hell, you know, and, you know, I don't know where I stand today as far as annihilationism or eternal conscious torment. I don't know. I, tend, I, tend to incline towards eternal conscious torment only for this reason, not scriptural reasons, but because of NDEs and near death experience literature. And even though those allegedly conflict, but whatever my point is I'd rather be safe than sorry. but. scripturally, I can see how someone can make the case for annihilationism, but at that time, I don't know all that stuff. All I, I'm believing I'm, I'm gonna go to hell. I'm gonna get tortured by some demons or whatever, however that works out. I don't know, but I believe it. And so I'm afraid I'm like, okay, well, they're not going to baptize me here. They told me I'm going to get baptized when after this three and a half day retreat is done. And I go back to my church. on Sunday and they're going to baptize me there. So I got to play it cool with this dude cause I'm not trying to die in the meantime. I ain't trying to go to hell. I'm already suffering from paranoia when I sleep and hot sweats. I'm not trying to die. I'm trying to, I'm trying to meet this Jesus you're telling me about. And so anyways, I got beef with this dude. so anyways, when it comes to that night, cause that night We had our first service. man. I just think the Lord every time I think about this testimony, because I'm there, nobody knows about 250 youth and I'm praying, I'm praying, you know, the music's playing everything. And so, so there is no reason that would have led them to suspect. I don't know Christ because every it's a Christian youth camp. again, nobody knows me even slightly except. that brother. So everyone would have presumed I was a Christian anyways. Yeah. Um, so I'm standing there and, all these kids are lifting their hands. And at this time I'm trying to follow Sue with them, but I'm still like filled with pride. I'm like, nah, man, that looks weak. I don't know if I'm gonna do all that. You know, you know, these girls are looking at, I don't know, but that's, that's where my mind was at the time. um, yeah. And so, but I'm praying, I'm praying in my heart. I said, Lord, I feel so wicked for everything I've And I don't know if, and I'm doubtful as to whether or not God will forgive me. And I said, Lord, and mind you, this is a Pentecostal church. And so I'm not trying to, you know, go into this, you know, try to delve deep into this doctrine of tongues and justify it here. Cause you know, I don't know what you believe on that, but this is just my story. I said, they're telling me that I need to get baptized in the Holy Ghost and to get baptized in water. And, and they say you need, you need to have the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. And, now I still believe in tongues today as a full Preterist. And sometimes people say I'm a walking contradiction. And be that as it may, and you know, I, and I still cast out demons. believe in all that stuff. So just for the record, I don't believe in tongues, but I'm not going to debate your honor and I'm happy you know it yet And that's what, that's why I preface with that. Cause you know, a lot, even non, because I believe, you know, you're a full preterist if I'm not mistaken. okay. So, so even those with, you know, that are futurists that don't believe it. So as a full preterist that like places me in the minority of a minority, you know? And so I'm like, I got, know, anyway, so I'm just, I'm there. And so I'm, eagerly, I'm praying for this. I'm expecting this. And, and mind you, I'm already doubtful as whether or not God will forgive me. I wasn't particularly emotional person. Even at that time being street smart, was, you know, even though I was a youngster, I was still somewhat psychologically and socially keen. I wasn't very gullible. and I said, God, if this is real. and you're willing to save me and you can forgive me. I said, please have somebody come and pray for me and give me salvation. Give me these tongues or whatever these people are telling me about. And so no lie, as I'm praying in my heart, 30 seconds later, about a minute, maybe a minute later, let's do that, I don't even know, comes up, whispers in my ear, repeats my prayer verbatim. Mm. You've been asking God for this, this, this, this, this, this. I was like, yo, this is a trip. He said, lift your hands. You're about to speak in tongues. You're about to receive the Holy ghost. I was like, wow. And so I just lifted my hands and all I can describe how it felt, I felt like this hot liquid just was. poured upon my head and entered me and I felt a spirit enter me, the Holy Spirit. And I just began to feel this bubbling up in my belly and I began to feel it bubble up and bubble up and words started coming out of my mouth. But a minute prior, I felt dead as a door knob. I felt dead. All this music, nothing is moving me. And, and, and so as I'm praying, man, this probably is taking place for about an hour and I feel hot. And this was up out in the mountains where it was nice, cool breeze and everything were outside. And this was night. So it was really cool. and so I feel hot and I began to cry these hot, hot tears that I never felt a day in my life. Began to stream all the way down to my belly and I'm speaking in tongues, I'm crying and I feel like this internal cleansing taking place. And, so the reason why I get so happy is because in my mind, know theologically they told me I need to get baptized and get saved. But all I know is that I felt like I had this union with him that I, this risen Christ that y'all are talking about. met and I felt. Everything in my heart changed. Everything was cleansed. And I felt this joy and I had this smile on my face. And I told him after where I said, yo, I did so many different drugs. I slept around so much of my life. I'd done so many hedonistic and sensual things. I said, but nothing compares to what I just experienced. And I have the biggest joy and smile on my face. so why I mentioned that one dude, because I wasn't even tripping anymore. I wasn't afraid of death, like at all. I'm like, man, even if this dude does follow through with this, I have no fear, no fear. I know God, I'm different, I'm changed. I know Jesus, I know the Holy Ghost. And so anyways, you know, every following night was just even more glorious. And so come Sunday, you know, once my, so, well, he ended up giving his life to the Lord and he repented that night anyways. And so we kind of watched it. Yeah. We ended up making amends and, and, and, and he ended up repenting, giving his life to the Lord, getting baptized, everything. Um, but so. We spent three and a half days there and then come Sunday, man, was my day to get baptized once we had, uh, cause it was probably about like an hour, an hour and a half way, uh, the camp that we're at. And so, uh, we had a baptismal service. so I know this and I, I tell you the truth. I'm not making stuff up. I'm not trying to fabricate stories. I told this even to my, my wife, closest people to me. This is what happened. So when I got baptized, I literally started ascending to the top of the water, dude. I started, I felt I'm, I'm sitting in the bottom of the tank and the tank. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. it is designed for baptisms. And I'm in it and it's about to my shoulders and my, feet are on the ground. My heels are touching the ground and my butt as well. I'm just seated in here waiting to get baptized, waiting to get done. And the path, and I'm on top of the platform and he's talking to all the congregation. He's saying, you know, these young people today, they're going to be baptized. So his attention is focused on them. Their attention is focused on him. And so meanwhile, dude, my butt starts lifting up and my, and my whole body starts ascending and ascending. my, now my toes are beginning to peek out of the waters. My body's elevating. And I was like, yo, this is a trip. Now it didn't dawn on me until years afterward. Cause I always wonder like, Lord, what was the significance of that? And, and you know, Paul talks about, know, you died with him and baptism been risen again. Well, dead bodies float to the top of the water. And so there was this, you know, and people can call me a liar, delusional, gullible, whatever, but I know what I experienced that day. And, and so when I came out of the water, when I got baptized, I felt like, man, I had new skin. It's crazy because then, you know, later on I ended up reading Naaman, you know how the name of the leopard dipped seven times in the Jordan river. then depending on what translation you read, it says, and then his skin was like that of a baby. Yeah. And, and so, you know, I'm not saying that I was given new skin literally, but subjectively that's how I feel about the skin. I feel very cleansed. And then when I walk out, I used to say back in 2011, I was like, the world was like HD. Now I had to revise and say it's like 4k because once I stepped outside of those walls, I, I, in some weird mystical subjective way, I feel like I'm seeing the world. for the first time in a very clear way, everything seems clear to me, like there was a veil that was lifted off of me. But anyways. what was some of the clear, like, how did you experience and see things differently? What are, what were some of the biggest changes or feelings that you had pre being a believer to post? I mean, well, first of all, you know, I was, and I say this with shame and I'm a very, very big proponent and advocate for purity and treating women right and everything. You know, I'm married. I've been married for almost a decade. I believe in sexual purity, living righteous, living holy, living a repentant lifestyle. But at that time, you know, I was, you know, a man whore and I was, addicted to pornography. was addicted to all these substances. I had murder in my heart. Like, I don't know what you listen to, but I used to always listen to stuff like Brother Lin Chung. He raps about some demented stuff, murder. had murder on my mind. I had violence on my mind. I loved fighting and beating people up. love, I was a thug, man. That's how, that's my mindset. And, and, and, and I cuss like a sailor. So. When that happened, man, when I had that encounter, cussing immediately stopped, pornography immediately stopped, fornication immediately stopped, getting drunk immediately stopped, everything stopped. And the dudes that I had beef with before in the streets, I looked at with love. I looked at with care and empathy and compassion. My heart revived and it was the Holy Ghost. that regenerated my heart. so everything, man, it wasn't me trying to indoctrinate myself in a world of, I felt into my gut. I felt into my spirit. I felt another person living with me, the Holy Spirit. now I'm, but. old person in the old ways try to creep back at all or was it just done and then it was done for good? done for good, man. And I've never looked at another porn site a day in my life. I never went out fornicating again and it's been going on 14 years. all, every vice broke. Now I'm not saying that there weren't times where I might've gotten in the flesh and got angry and, you know, like as if I've never fallen, but you know, but as far as these more overt and you know, vices that I was, was just. characteristic of my everyday life broke, dude, in an instant. And so I knew internally, I knew internally, and like even the old rap songs, know, murder rap and all this stuff, it felt disgusting to me. I hated, I hated, dude. even when, so my dad, when I repented and all that stuff, We worked on a relationship and all that. But he knew that I was going to church even before I fully committed and that I was trying to improve my life because we had a rocky relationship. So he was proud to see his son change, even though it was a work of God and get baptized. So he drove me there that day because once we left the youth camp, they dropped me off in my dad's house. And I was so excited to share the news that I'm a changed man. And, and, so it was crazy about that too. So there was this dude that like probably about a, were tight, man. was another one of my homies. We, we partied probably about a month before I got saved. We were tight, knew each other for years. I stayed at night as pad, everything. And, and, and, so when I'm still a minor at this time, I'm in high school and, So I go to high school and he hadn't seen me for a month. didn't cut my hair. Nothing changed about me. And when I walked in in the high school, cause it was like a charter school that I was going to, it wasn't like a traditional school, but he seen me and his jaw dropped. He's like, dude, what happened to you? I was like, I said, he's like, you look different. He said, bro, there's even a glow around you. I said, bro, I met Jesus. You changed me. I'm, I'm saved, man. I'm a different man. And he's all, Whoa, that's wow. And nothing about my attire changed. Again, nothing. And I just seen him a month before. And so I believe that, you know, like the radiance that was upon Moses in some similar way, the glory of Christ shown upon me and they seen it in my countenance. They knew that I just, I would come into a presence of people and they just knew like, Whoa, dude, you're different. Mm. And, and it wasn't because I was trying to fake the part. but, what was your question again? I'm sorry. I forget I'm sort of I'm enjoying this interview. I'm just sort of asking you the odd question here and there and letting you roll with it. I am interested. Yeah, I think I was just asking how like you saw how clearly you saw the world differently after that. Yeah. yeah, yeah. So all, all those vices, man broke. and, did, what did, like, what did life then look like for you in terms of day to day through your twenties then? Cause obviously, you know, you said, you know, you're barely literate. You hadn't read, you don't even kicked out at eight high schools. Now you're this different man. Like what did you do with it? What did you do with yourself? Um, so, um. Hold on, I was trying to think about where I was going with that. about how I changed and stuff. So, yeah, so even people ex, you know, who knew me knew that there was something different about me. hold on. when my dad, drove me to the baptism. So on my way back, he's playing worldly music. And I, I, and I feel a grief in my spirit. I feel a grief and, I didn't know anything about that. I didn't, I didn't know I was supposed to feel those things. And I, and I, and I ended up telling my dad and like, one of the things about my dad, he's a very strong headed, aggressive buff guy, intimidating guy. And so like, I was careful about what I said to him, but even at that time I was like, dad, Can you turn this music off? Cause it's bothering me. And that's a, I'd never said that a day in my life. And it, and it wasn't even like some crazy, crazy wild out music. I just feel the sensitivity in my heart for purity, for love, for righteousness, for holiness, for everything that glorifies Christ. And he was just like, it ain't that bad son. Like, was like, nah, I feel, I feel bad in my spirit. And so anyways, all the old homies that I used to try to kick with and stuff, they're using and I tried talking to them about the Lord and every time I'm trying to talk them about the Lord, they're using right in front of me and I feel just grief in my spirit, man. And so I knew like, I'm not the same anymore. My reality, my subjective reality just changed. But, excuse me. So, Yeah. To answer your question, what that looked like. So I'm, I'm going to school. I'm still in high school. And so now unlike before just fooling around, I'm actually trying to learn and I care about my education. And what's funny is like, man, like, like, you know, again, I got saved in a Pentecostal church. they, they, they, you know, I'm, don't really care about, you know, dressing, you know, with proper attire anymore. Now. But at that time I equated it, albeit in ignorance, to modesty, have, we emphasize long sleeves and the ladies were to wear dresses and stuff like that. So in high school, I got my dress shirt on, I'm carrying a Bible and man, like I'm walking clear across town in the heat of summer and here in Cali, gets hot. It gets like in the hundreds. And so I got saved in August. And so I got enrolled like late August or early September in my high school. And so I'm skipping down the street singing all these songs I'm learning in church. Like I love you, Jesus. I worship and adore you. I'm singing on the top of my lungs as I'm skipping a high school, dude. And so all, even the ego went out of the picture for me. I would like, I wanted someone to ask me about Jesus. Hey, what's that you singing? And like, I would stop and evangelize people on my way to high school. Like, amen. You let me tell you about Christ. But I remember like the first week, man, a whole crowd of kids were gathering around me because they knew the old person I used to be. And some of them didn't know me. And they're questioning me about God. Aren't you embarrassed to have that Bible? There's this girl, she's like, aren't you embarrassed to hold that Bible? And she was a... holding hands with her boyfriend. I said, are you embarrassed to hold your hands with your dude? She said, no, I was like, why? And she's like, because I love him. I was like, well, I love Jesus. And I'm not afraid to be ashamed. I'm not ashamed to be identified as a Christian. I love him. And so I started getting educated. And so I read like the easiest translation. I don't know what translations you guys use out there in Australia, but a very easy translation that was given me was the NLT. The New Living Translations, it errors more so on dynamic equivalence versus formal equivalence, know, word for word to make it more reader friendly. But even then I kind of struggled with that, with that easy translation. A lot of times I couldn't even understand what I was reading. So I'd pray, God help me. Help me, help me, I read every day, every day, every day, just devouring the Bible, praying every day. know, early on my age, man, even at that age, my prayer life was like 45 minutes to an hour. I was just hungry for God. The moment I wake up, I spring up out of bed with joy, fall to my knees and start shouting hallelujah. That's how, you know, just enamored I was with Christ. And so that's how real it was for me. And so, you know, I started getting educated and then I picked up a job, you know, at McDonald's and I, and I felt, and just little signs that were happening. remember, you know, even going to open interview at McDonald's and then like, and then I had this Bible and this dude's shipping out. He's like, that's a Bible. He's like, yeah, he gave me 20 bucks and he walks out. And so little things like that, which I didn't ever get that look as a drug addict. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wish I would have had people hand $20 on my hand back in the day, but these little things where God was showing me, I am gracious. As you put first the kingdom of God, these little things will be added unto you and doors were just opened up, radical favor, all these amazing prayers I prayed about, I prayed for this, this would get answered. I prayed for this, this would get answered. And so, to answer your question, you know, I started working. Yeah. church also became a life for me, a lifestyle. went to every prayer meeting, to every midweek service, to every Sunday service, just started learning about God. so I was 17, right? And so I was working at McDonald's. I wasn't there for long until I turned 18. And I don't know where you stand with this, but I believe like God can speak to us. even outside of the Bible, not to say that it can be added to the canon. Don't want to get into that if you don't believe in that. But anyways, so why I share that is because there is a job, you know, in my town is a slaughterhouse and there is like guaranteed full time, like they're going to work you there. And at my measly little McDonald's job, I ain't picking up all these hours. Cause you just, you don't get many hours, especially as a minor. And so I had to turn 18 first. And so when I did turn 18, I was in prayer even before this and God, feel like God told me. You submitted an application there. I'm going to open up a door for you to go there because I needed more money to start building my life. And so. I ended up getting a job application. Now Lord spoke to me and I even told my brother and the Lord, I knew at the time his name was Marlon. I said, yo man, I said, I'm even telling you this in advance. I'm gonna get a job there. God already promised me he's gonna give me a job there. And so I said, walk with me, man. We're gonna go pick up an application. So I pick up an application and I asked the boss, was like, are you hiring? He said, no. So, you know, a person, With my stubborn faith at the time, said, doesn't, you know, in my mind, I'm like, it doesn't even matter what you're telling me, because God already told me. And he said, and so, you know, I'm sure Marlon's thinking in his head like, yeah, God told you. And so I'm like, okay. I said, well, I said, my name is Greg. I said, I'm ready to work. And so I take the application anyway. And so I filled it out. And maybe a week later I gave it to him. Are you hiring yet? No. I said, well, I'm ready to work. And so I'm still, you know, believing in my heart, like God's gonna open up a door. So check this out. There was a nearby town that I got invited to. was like this Pi Day. I don't know what it was, but a brother in the Lord and a sister in the Lord invited me to go on out with them. And they had all these different boots and stuff. There was a raffle and all these things. So I entered my name in the raffle. think it costs money. I don't remember. Probably about two weeks later, maybe three weeks later, I get a call. I won the raffle. I won a free membership at a gym. And what's a trip is, the one of the friends of mine who was going to the same gym, was talking about me getting a membership. And so I was like, yo dude, like I won this free membership. And I was like, okay, so I go there, we go together. I sign it out, I'll do all that stuff. Guess who I see there? The boss. And he walks up to me and says, are you ready to start Monday? I was like, hallelujah. And so it was just God's providence that orchestrated all of that. And I said, I told Marley, said, I told you God opened up a door. I done told you, the Lord spoke to me. I'm, I'm going to start working there. So anyways, I started working there and you know, I ended up, you know, becoming a hard worker, started reading, building my life. and, and at this point I'm 18. Now I'm, you know, I'm turning 31 next month. Yeah, so what do do with yourself now? Great. Yeah. So, um, what I do now is obviously, you know, as I mentioned, uh, I'm married. have, um, two step kids and then, um, a biological son of my own. I, since 2020 during COVID lockdowns, I'm sure you remember that where a lot of churches were closing down. I decided to kind of. answer the call to help the need of those that were isolated. You know, depression started increasing, suicide rates started increasing. People's loneliness started, you know, it was just on a rise during those times. so I was like, you know, I'm gonna start an online Bible study. And so I just created an Instagram. I threw out a random invite and I got like 50 yeses, like people saying they wanted to join. many from many of whom I did not know the majority I did not know. So there's people from Asia, from Europe, from America, from South America. I mean, all over the world, including Australia, people all over the world started joining my Bible study. And so that was in 2020. And so it's, 2025 and has been going strong for five years. And so I've been helping to, you know, disciple people and shepherd people through that ministry that God has given me. And I've seen people get saved. I've seen people abandon the occult, abandon gangs, abandon so many different things that I've, you know, through by the grace of God have helped through that ministry. I'm full time in ministry. The Lord has been gracious. Yes. All, you know, The Lord has been gracious to supply my funds and rent and everything through the proceeds of the ministry. And so I devote full time to that. I also occasionally go out evangelizing to the local college, know, local, also, you know, the hood and the trenches. Heck man, another amazing story I can probably share some other time or later is the Lord. gave me access some years back in the same juvenile hall that I got locked up in, and I was reaching gangsters and all that. It was just an amazing story how God opened that door. yeah, I'm a married man, full-time ministry, evangelizing, helping the shepherd people, and advancing the gospel. That's what I'm doing today. Good stuff. Hey, I'd love to ask you, I'm wary of time though. It's been great, better, you're good. Yeah, I mean, we'll get a few more questions in. I'd love to ask you a couple of like theological questions as you speak through this. Like I think a lot of people feel, and this is probably more pronounced in, in Preterus where people can be very sort of intellectual. And I think in a good way, like, You sure? people in, in preterism, but, feel uncomfortable with like experiences and people sort of assigning those experiences to truth and saying, is an experience from God versus saying, that's just an experience that you've had in your own head and assigning it to God. Where do you sit on that? And then where do you sit on the idea of, where do you sit on the idea of solo scripture, which is obviously like a core pro, Protestant doctrine because I'm sort of unsure about it. So I'm interested to see where you're at. Good question, man. I actually like these questions because as I'm sure you can tell at this point, I am a fan of experience. Yeah. one of the criticisms that I have, not only with full preterists, but, with other people that aren't full preterists that, tend to be cessationists or borderline into cessationism. And sometimes that even charismatics that, you know, to use the term that I've heard before, or charismatics with seat belts on, there's a sense of caution and I think caution is good. I think you should always have caution. You should be a critical thinker. But there's a difference between being a critical thinker and having a critical spirit and, and, and espousing radical skepticism. Cause it to be a critical thinker is different than to espouse radical skepticism to experience. Because if we want to play that game, we can be radically skeptic about everything. can, cast radical skepticism upon the world and say, how do I know the external world is real? How do I know, you know, to use Renee Descartes that there isn't an evil demon. You know, deceiving everybody or that you're a brain in a vat. why not, you know, be logically consistent as espouse solipsism. The only brain, the only mind, you know, exists is your mind. So, so we can espouse that radical skepticism, but I would say for us to be consistent. now the criticism is, well, that's subjective. Well, hold on, you know, and this is where, you know, as I am a critical thinker, you know, I've, I've gone to school for philosophy. I love apologetics. love philosophy. love, you know, I'm an analytical person by nature. If it wasn't for my radical experiences, I would probably be a cessationist for how analytical I am. so just because something is subjective doesn't mean that it's not valid. It doesn't mean that it's not true. because there are, for example, the thoughts that you think the pain sensations that you feel are true. They are subjective. Does it make it any less true if it falls within the category of subjectivism as opposed to objectivism? No, it doesn't make one or the other any less true or any more true. It just is a different category. that we, can acquire knowledge and philosophers call this properly basic beliefs. You know, it's, immediate knowledge. There's no mediation. In fact, I would argue it's the most reliable and indubitable form of knowledge because for example, if, if I say, I know what happened in the past, well, what separates me from what, what connects me to the knowledge of the past is the mediation of history. and historical texts. Well, the thoughts that I think and the pain sensations that I feel, there's no mediation. I experienced them immediately. And so there is no... Do you get what I'm saying? yeah, there's no, there's almost no like Chinese whispers element to it. There's no steps in between. Yeah. Yeah. You experience it immediately. It doesn't require evidence. So if I were to say, to me, how can you prove that you are really seeing me? Well, I see you because I see you. That's why philosophers call it properly basic belief because you have to start at some... a fundamental, you know, starting ground. so, so again, you know, to, use the, example of thoughts and well, how do you know you're thinking the thoughts you're thinking? Where are you going to sign, allude to some empirical proof? Are you going to, write me a syllogism or what are you going to do? You know, it's not third person communicable. That's, that's where people. You know, have a difficulty is like, well, I can't, I can't objectively attest to what you say you're experiencing. So it must not be true. And that doesn't logically follow. It's just that by nature, it's not third person communicable, but we're all within good reason to suspect that you have thoughts and I have thoughts and this person have thoughts, but that's a mere inference. I mean, I'm only inferring that you also have a mind. Right. but I can't. I can't deductively prove that I can't empirically prove that. And anybody that has like, you know, just even a basic reading of philosophy, no philosophers will also concede this, but, know, unless of course I presuppose the existence of God, right? Because then, then I can justify there being other minds from a theological basis. But anyways, let me try to get around to your question. So. I see subjective experiences as no less valid, but I have to vet everything with the Bible. I have to vet everything in line with scripture because I do believe that while my experiences are valid, while I do believe that my experiences are true, people can, and this is another thing that opens up a of worms because a lot of full predators believe demons aren't around any, any, around today. I personally do, especially again, based off the experiences that I've experienced. Do you think you were ever possessed by demon? with you was it just you worshipping other things? I think I was definitely oppressed. I think that there was a degree of influence, you cause I also used like hallucinogenic drugs and there's times where, know, there's, there's the brain is involved in that as well. So it's not purely spiritual, but I've had experiences where I felt like, you know, something overtook me and I, you know, and I, I punched out somebody against my will and I I'm witnessing my body move against my will. but I think that I was oppressed by demons. I never had an exorcism performed on me. I've performed exorcisms on people. let me just say this parenthetically. Maybe we could get back to this, because I do want to answer your question, but I've had strangers. Announce. slither on the ground, announce and blaspheme my first and last name. And my last name is not common. This person did not know me. They were blaspheming me and say, he's one of those lovers of God. And slithering on the ground like a snake, man. And it took four grown, heavyset men to hold this individual down, to cast out a demon. I've had another time where, This one I knew personally, I knew him for years. No psychiatric history, had no mental disorders, was not high. And I'm talking to him about the Lord. He's a pronounced atheist. I'm talking to the Lord, as he drops me off in my grandma's house, and where in my truck, in his truck. By the way, leading up to this, he said that he had gone to like Las Vegas like a month prior and he met this witch, he had sex with her and I'm still a baby Christian. I'm only 18 at the time. I don't know much. I know now that that opens up doors for demons to enter in. I know that sounds weird and superstitious to people. Be that as it may, I've learned from experience that that's what happens. mean, non-Christians would believe that too. Like an occultist would believe that they can connect with spirits through doing these. Yeah. Yeah. But so he's a pronounced atheist and I'm talking to him about the Lord and I'm in his truck. And I feel led to start quoting Psalm 23 for some reason. I don't suspect in the slightest that he's demon possessed. I don't even have a reference for a demonic possession to begin with at this point. I'm fresh in the faith. I've never seen it. I don't even know what to look for. I don't suspect that he's demon possessed. So I don't, I don't have some presupposition that he is that, that, that, you know, that lends to the power of, you know, of, of, of suggestion. And so I, as I quoted, as I'm quoting Psalm 23, I feel, and this is nighttime, he's dropping me off at the house. We're parked right in front of my car in front of my, my house at the time. The truck is in park, but it's still on. And I feel this intense. ringing in my ears. It's high, high pitch frequency. And I feel my mind begin to get scrambled. I can't think straight. And I feel like this cloud, this fog began to almost try to veil my mind. And I'm finding it difficult to even think at this point. Now I don't say anything to him. And I'm just musing in my heart. like, what's going on? I'm musing in my heart. And then I hear, He says, bro, I feel weird, man. I was like, and I'll say anything. I stopped. I'm like, is he experiencing the same thing I'm experiencing? I'm like, Lord, I suspect that this is a demon. I suspect this is some demonic, something going on. And so I'm like, Lord, if this is a demon, please strengthen me and help me and give me wisdom in this moment, Lord, cause I don't know what to do. And as I'm praying that in my heart, I'm not saying anything to him. I hear a second time, but I hear terror in his voice. And he, it's like, I just hear horror in his voice. I feel weird, man. And like, I was like, ah, that's a demon, man. And no lie, I put my head down, like, God, give me strength. And like, all I hear is this sadistic laughter come from him. Like this is my homie. I've known him for years. Never did anything at all in the slightest. Mm-hmm. I hear the sadistic laughter. I don't know if you ever seen Batman the Dark Knight with Joker. That's exactly how his face looked. And he looked like he wanted to murder me. And he says, we know who you are. Your brother, Greg, get out of the truck. like, dude, like I'm not lying, man. His face contorted. I seen an entirely different personality, like kind of surface to his face, his eyes became darkened and his voice changed like base. And, and it was the wildest experience, man. And, but yeah, just with the mocking tone is speaking in, you know, like we, we know who you are. and so I'm inexperienced. don't know what to do. and it's like, I'm in a truck and it's running, it's in park. I ain't trying to even try to cast out a demon and see how this even works. You know? And so I just kind of took the L I'm like, you know, I'm a just digress and, not even try to cast this thing out. And so long story short, I get out of the truck and like the he's revving up the engine. and like peels out and then probably about like 30 minutes later, he texts me, he says, dude, I don't know what happened. And he says, that was the wildest thing. I've never experienced that before. And I said, bro, you have a demon. he says, it's contradictory because he was an atheist. said, I know I has been living there for a while. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, but anyways, man, that was, you know, a wild trip and I have other ones too. won't go into, but so I want to come back to this. So what do you do? Because in that instance, that wasn't just me that experienced it. We don't even have the same worldviews. We don't have the same pre-commitments. We don't have the same presuppositions. And what this, my subjective experience is actually corresponding with what someone else is subjectively experiencing without me stating it. So there's something activity that's going on in the objective world that, that I can empirically verify that is also, corresponding with this internal or, you know, the subjective experience of this ringing in the ears and this crazy, you know, scrambling of the mind and, and this just blanket of what I felt was like another presence entered the truck. Yeah. Like I felt like there was a demon and before that manifestation even occurred, I felt as if I had some intuitive knowledge that this was what I suspected it to be. and so one, so where I've pressed full preterist on is when, when we, know, in philosophy and critical thinking, there's something called abductive reasoning and we're aiming for the inference to the best explanation. Yeah. And, and so for us to attain that, we have to satisfy quite a bit of criteria. has to be internal, coherence, external consistency, scope, explanatory power, simplicity, you know, and so on and so forth. But one of those criterion is explanatory power. theory that can best explain all the phenomena, all things being equal is the theory that is to be preferred over against another. Yeah. So if I walk outside my house and the ground is wet, I might infer that it rained. But suppose further that the roof is not wet and it's a sunny day. Do I have warrant to infer that it rained given all the other phenomena? No, because that doesn't best explain all the phenomena. And so many full-predatorists or, you know, will say, you know, there's no demonic activity today. And I just simply say, okay, well, let's just set the Bible aside for a minute. Not saying that it's not our infallible rule of faith, but even from secular sources, they report similar things that I explain, that I've witnessed in some cases where people levitate reported by secular, psychological experts and psychiatric experts. the speaking of fluent languages in Latin and Greek and ancient Scandinavian languages that were not learned by the subject or the knowledge of the unknown, you know, and supernatural strength, all these things, some of the things of which we read in the scriptures, and which I believe makes it even further compelling case, because if you have it comporting with the New Testament data, then we have to assume much more for us to to fit this idea that no demonic activity or there's no demons today. And I think it doesn't explain all the phenomena. And so what I have found in my experience, I'm either called a liar, I'm gullible or I'm delusional. so, I'm in like certain Facebook groups and I occasionally say, okay, Let's talk about this, you know. Let's not opt out. Let's try to actually unbiasedly examine the evidence and give a best explanation. Just give a stab at it. Is it something that the mind is capable of doing? Right? And as opposed to demons, right? Try to take a stab at it, explain it, but just evading it completely and ignoring it, act like the evidence isn't there, I don't think is... being a critical thinker, right? We're only critical of what we want to be critical of. And so I'm sorry, man, I could go on tangents, forgive me. So where I play subjective experience, it never overrule scripture. Never overrule scripture. I believe also in the continuation of tongues and prophecies. I've operated in the gift of word of knowledge and prophecy, probably thousands of times at this point, sharing information of people's names, where they were moving to exact city states. I mean, things from complete strangers. and so, I don't think I can add any of that to the Canon any more than the Corinthian prophets were adding anything to the Canon in first Corinthians chapter 12 through 14. We don't have any of their prophecies added to the Canon. So I, I, I I elevate this above everything above philosophy, above experience, but If people say there are no demons today, I don't say that the two can... If the scriptures actually teach that there are no demons, then I have to go back to the work shed and say all that I've experienced, I have to reinterpret that. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the Bible teaches that. Because if so, I'm living a contradiction. Yeah. I say that maybe we want to reevaluate what we think the Bible says, because unless we're willing to place our interpretation on the status of infallible, then we have to at least leave open the possibility that we might have misinterpreted what we think that the Bible is telling us. And so, you know what I'm saying? And so if at least, at the very least, if I provide a viable explanation, it may not be the most compelling. Mm-hmm. It may not be the most persuasive, but if it least reaches the threshold of viability, that it's my theory, my interpretation of the scriptures are viable that demons still exist, assuming the preterist framework. I think that that is the best option to take given my experiences. Right? Because now the person is not presupposing what I'm presupposing because it's likely that they haven't experienced what I've experienced. But I have to cohere all my evidence, my scriptural evidence, psychological evidence, experiential evidence. I don't set any evidence aside no matter the domain. Right? reasonable that like, so I did an episode with Mike Miano, Kirsten Barton and another guy and we were on demonic possession and all had different views. And what I'm sort of, you know, I lean towards the New Testament showing sort of a cessationist narrative. And yet I can't deny that there's all sorts of experiences that people have had afterwards. So I'm wondering. And I mean, I think I'm arrogant, if I think I have the scriptures worked out, I think I have a working hypothesis on what I'm reading at this point in time, and that will change in future. So what, what are your thoughts on whether maybe the full preterist arguing against demonic activity might be correct in their reading of the scripture, that it's telling a story of first century events, but that it really isn't speaking all that much about what's happening afterwards. So therefore there could still be demonic activity now. It's just, we're not told that story in scripture and that we try to be too black and white with scripture, which is ultimately a narrative of the events that led up to the gospels being given. It's not a story about absolutely everything. Yeah, no, and I think that's accurate because I don't think the Bible gives us an explanation for everything. It's not a book of cosmology. It's not a book of science. I believe that the Bible is a divine corporate liturgical book. And as a Westerner, I'm... prone to interpret, view this as a private devotional book. I think it was intended as a corporate liturgical book that doesn't exhaustively explain everything about God. It gives us some fundamentals. It gives us the essentials, but you know, John says, I've written these things so that you may believe. So, so if, if, you know, on the name of the only begotten son of God. the goal of it. Yeah, it didn't try to be anything more than that. Yeah. if it satisfies that goal, then the goal is satisfied. And people can walk away being a cessationist and having believed on the name of the Son of God, right? Now, I think, and furthermore, I just don't think, I think that we want more from the Bible than it actually gives us. Because let's be honest, if Jesus was here or Paul was here, you would pick his brain, I would pick his brain and write down a bunch of stuff. Right? Like, well, what about this? And what about that? What do you mean by this? what do I, how am I to view this? So there's always more questions that can be asked. Now that's where I would say, I'm more prima scriptura, not sola, where prima is primarily scripture. It's to me, it's the final authority. But I see experience yielding as an area of authority. We consider it to be an area of authority in other realms. If a heart surgeon has experience, we would consider him, and has the abstract and textbook knowledge, we would consider him to be more authoritative than the one who was just recently qualified as a surgeon, but doesn't have all those years of experience. And so now I'll, you know, I don't know if you've heard this term before, it's a philosophy is a handmaiden of theology. And while I think experience is also a handmaiden to theology. and, and so never overrules, but it's always subservient to, and, helps compliment and supplement our understanding of scripture. Heck, you know how aloof we would be? Think of it this way. psychopaths. I don't know if you ever heard of David Wood. He's an apologist. He argues against Islam and he's a strong proponent of, he got saved in, prison. he's a clinically diagnosed psychopath, does not feel empathy, doesn't feel guilt. He is lacking an area of experiential psychology that I have. And so, therefore, I'm better qualified to speak to people who are dealing with guilt because I'm not just coming at it abstractly, but with the experience and relatability. And so, I'm more privy to certain things that the Scriptures speak on, such as guilt and remorse, godly sorrow. That without that experience, you're not in the most advantageous place to speak on those topics. And so when it comes to demonic possessions, when it comes to speaking in tongues, when it comes to prophesying and giving words of knowledge to strangers that I've never met a day in my life and all the information being accurate, I'm saying that doesn't mean I'm a better Christian. All it means is that I've been privileged. to have experienced certain things that I think makes me more keen to certain aspects that are already there contained in scripture, not inventing something. It's just that, you know, and so, yeah, so when it comes to, I watched some segments of it where you would have to refresh my memory, but of the podcast that you are mentioning about someone that had sought for deliverance and that he had some sort of experience where behavior, where he was eliciting some uncontrollable behaviors, right? Is that correct? yeah, that's right. That was Stephen, Stephen Long, non-Christian. I've actually, I have, when I look into these things, know, psychology, you know, Yeah. Pretty good books on demonic activity. No dominion by father Chad Ripperger or Ripperger. The exorcism files by Adam Bly, I believe his name is, but I mentioned that because if anybody who's watching this, I'd strongly recommend this book. Demonic Files by Dr. Richard Gallagher, who has 25 years. as a clinical psychiatrist. He's an expert in mental disorders and classifying all these things, but he's also had, and he approached it initially as a skeptic, but then later had, you know, 25 years of experience of exorcisms firsthand with side by side with priests because the Catholic church, they like to have medical experts and psychiatric experts. before they say, know what, this is definitively demonic. But he goes into how modern psychology, and this is by an expert, an authority, doesn't explain a lot of the phenomena that he witnessed firsthand to be demonic. There are some times where there are overlap and, you know, And not all cases where people do have mental illnesses, is there even a demon? It's a genuine mental illness. There's genuine mental disorders, but there is this margin that exists that he says it cannot be classified by modern psychology. And, and, and this is not only from religious, people with a religious worldview, but also, there's been, secularists as well who have said, you know what? this is probably paranormal. There's something about this that we don't understand. And so now I say that, yeah, so to answer your question about the Son of God, about the Bible, I don't think it answers everything. I think it gives us a general framework to discern and interpret, you know, because let's face it, if it answered everything, then We would be omniscient, right? But it doesn't, it doesn't claim to satisfy that, that desire of, of man. And I think it's just something that we're, we want and something I want, but, God deems it fit to not, not explain everything. And I think that was Job's experience as well. He read into a lot, right? And then at the end, he had to learn humility. I clasped my hand over my mouth and he, I've spoken of the most high and I've spoken eagerly. But yeah, so I would say I'm prima scriptura. I believe that it is the final authority. I believe that everything has to be vetted through that. I believe that no experience can overrule our understanding of scripture. I mean, the truth of scripture. Yeah. and that it is binding. But, you know, I leave open experience because think about it, Balaam, where was it at in the Bible before he seen a talkie-donkie? You know, and I understand that's, you know, well, that wasn't the complete canon, but hey, you know, the other thing too, man, is I see that we would have to also discount a lot of the experiences of Muslims coming to the faith. You know, through dreams and you know, in their dreams, they claim to see Jesus and they appear at this market and you'll meet this man and talk to him. His name is this. He will tell you about the Lord. He'll tell you about me. And it's like, you see this in the thousands, people that were radical Jihadists. You get what I'm saying? And so I don't, I don't like to, you know, place myself in a position to where I immediately dismiss it. have to put stuff on the shelf. You know what? Maybe I'll learn something later on that will give me more insight in how I reconcile all this and cohere it together. Amen to that. Well, Greg, thanks so much for your time, mate. It's been a really fascinating conversation. I knew it was going to be coming into it. And I didn't know what we'd end up speaking about, but I love how you sort of laid your story out there and told it and really made me think about a lot of things too. We've ended up speaking about different things to what I was expecting. thanks for your time, brother. And I'll post all the links on how people can follow you in the show notes. Look forward to staying in touch. All right. Yeah, man. Likewise. Thanks for having me on. was a blessing. All right. God bless.