What's The Point Anyway?
It seems like much of the Western world is lost. The interesting trend over the last few years is that more and more people are working that out.
More people have worked out that endless materialism and chasing things that never actually satisfy us aint it.
So what’s the point of it all, anyway?
What's The Point Anyway?
Episode #36 - Politics, Patriotism, American Exceptionalism and Theology with Steve AKA the American Pirate
This conversation was a long time coming, with my guest someone who I had been told I had to get on the show quite some time ago and we've just struggled to line up schedules.
Steve is someone who is the same as as me, but has lived a very full life - having spent time in prison in his early 20's after a long drug habit which became the turning point in his life. He's a proud MAGA American, but at the same time he's someone who is quite comfortable being critical of Trump and has a nuance in his perspectives around America that is so often missed. We had a really interesting discussion about the nature of patriotism and how different our perspectives are given our place of origin. We spoke a lot about how our theological interpretations influence our understanding of global events - particularly around ideas like evil, depravity of man and 'Satan'.
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has become like an historical kind of thing to understand. almost I get a form of, uh it almost feels like a celebration, even though it should be a time of mourning, you know, for what happened. But we, you know, you how we are here in America, very patriotic about things and any opportunity we have for, we do it. ah I mean, I was a child, I was in like middle school when that happened. ah Just like most guys my age or anyone around, we remember where we was when it happened. And it's just one of those things you never forget. I was, I think like grade five or six. So I don't know if 13, 14. Yeah, I think I was 13 years old when 9-11 happened. it's obviously we been in a different time zone. I remember waking up in the morning. It was like first thing in the morning. And I think my dad had sent mom a message saying, I turn on the news and then the news is on and it's playing. And then we went into the school and like every single kid, it's school is talking about it and then, yeah, school started at nine o'clock and by nine 30, see everyone still had the TVs playing and we're watching it. And then by about 10 o'clock, I remember a teacher being like, all right, we have to get on with the day now that it really changed the world from then. And I mean, I was a kid then I wasn't really that skeptical on it at the time, but I, look back on it and I mean, I look back on it now, I'm sure you're the same very different views to what I had then, but Can you imagine something like that happening today? Yeah. I mean, we have, I mean, we're always prone to it. That's for sure. I mean, we're, think we're pretty good at security of things and we've obviously taken a bigger expansion of that since that happened. And I, I, you know, I've met with individuals and especially a bunch of professional Christians that are like, you know, this is an inside job thing. I try not to stay out of that. I'm just like, I don't know where. that question. Yeah. know, bro. I mean, I've looked at videos and things that's gone on and I see evidence from both sides. um But I also understand is, you know, is my particular way of looking at our our government. We're, we can be very crooked. We can be a very crooked country. Um, I we, we talk about things of going and placing democracy in other countries and whatnot. And it just seems like to be like this blanket statement. Well, we need to establish democracy in other countries. In reality, we're actually just doing things, you know, we shouldn't be doing. Um, but we, I mean, I'd certainly say for, as for the country, I'm proud to be an American. Absolutely. I love my country. Um, I will help defend my country. I don't. This is the land that the Lord has blessed me to be in and it is a blessing to be here. We have a lot of good things here, we really do. um But, you know, at the top level, know, uh sin is in the world as well and especially, you know, we have some Nebuchadnezzars of the day, certainly. So where do you sit on? It's interesting. I'm being Australian. I mean, we're like, we're sort of like Canada, like this, this, you know, like I'd sort of love to be patriotic and love my country, I think my country hates me and, the country doesn't stand for anything. doesn't have any values. doesn't have any United culture. It's really sad. I, I look at Americans and guys like you that have this pride in their country. And I, and I may be a little bit more just objective on it, the way I assess it, because I don't have this deep sense of patriotism, because it's like, well, what would I actually be patriotic about? But when, when you talk about your patriotism, like, what is it? What is it to be an American? And what, like, what are you proud of? Do you think when you talk about the corruption, do you think it's always been corrupt at the top or, or has the essence of America been attacked in recent times? That's a loaded question. um I would certainly say as for the, I don't know, when it comes to my patriotic kind of oh understanding, maybe some of that's traditional, when I'm honest, maybe that's some of that is very traditional. I'm not anti-American in any kind of sort. I am anti-government in a lot of ways. I don't like government expanding and evolving into our lives. You know, examples like COVID where it starts shutting down churches and things like this. That's something that I'm like, you know, there's a point when, you know, the outside view of like a Romans 13, where we submit to our authorities, things like this as the government. And then there's a point when we draw back and like, no, we're going to not obey you and we're going to obey God in that sense. But when it refers around to the, I love the concept. um You know, and even, I'm pretty outspoken about it, even with stuff that's going on. have like deportations and things like that going on. just, I'm firm with my idea of like, Hey, I'll lock my door at night. Cause I don't want entry because I have something to protect. And I look at that, you know, my family, my children, my dog, my cat, you know, I have to protect those. Not only is my blessings from God, but as a man, you know, that's what we're supposed to do. And I look at that on like a grander scale of the country and there. When I look at that as saying, there's something here to protect. And if I could draw back for a second to 9-11, when all that happened, I was young, but I still remember, and you can look at it in glimpses today, America in some ways united. It was no longer indifference here or here, black, white, this, that, and the other, but hey, we're being attacked. Something's going on and we have to unite this together and draw together. And I think that's what I love. And I don't find nothing wrong with being patriotic in a sense of loving my country, my land. Especially, I mean, if you look at Paul, Paul loved his peoples, his brothers of the flesh. He loved his land. There's nothing wrong with that in that aspect. But if we start to make that as like an idol, as if government and country is everything, which I tend to see somewhat in the conservative Christian kind of movement. Yeah. It's almost like an idol. But when it comes down to wanting to um believe in God, when it comes down to embracing what we have as the gifts that we have, we sow the seeds here, we farm the land, we till the land, we teach our children, we protect our wives, that sort of patriotic tendency is what I certainly... Yeah. I mean, if you look at, if you read sort of Genesis one to two in the, the way that I do that it's sort of using analogies to tell a story of what Adam was to do as a representative of God here on earth. I mean, you just mentioned it. You mentioned one of the things in, in your comment just then it's like till the land that it, we should be looking after the, our land. You know, we should be, we should be looking after the animals, looking after the crops. that, and, I believe that's telling sort of a story in it, in an analogy about how we should be. We should, we should be proud of the area around us. We should be trying to make it, make it better. We shouldn't be like indifferent and nihilist to our culture and surrounding people and, and lands, which sadly is like, I mean, I think, I think the good, when that's When that's done in a good way, you do see it in America. think America is the best, probably the best country in the world at doing that. I mean, not many other, I can't think of many other countries that really had to sort of stand for anything in a unified way. And when you get to sort of like Australia and Canada that don't really stand for anything, then someone else's view will be imposed on you and no one's got anything to unify themselves to fight against it. So you just become sort of. Pawns to the powers that they want to impose whatever they wish to do which generally speaking isn't for our good. Exactly what you said, pawns of the powers of B. I think of, you know, there's plenty of dictatorship and plenty of people that want to have that highest of power. And we see it in, you know, some global leaders and such. Again, in some areas, I'm like, I try to stay away from like this world government, world tendency, because I think a lot of that, I think you might be understanding what I'm saying. I think a lot of that. tends towards something I hope we get into is from dispensational kind of viewpoint, these world leaders. And I think a lot of that comes from there. And we have the tendency to get into. So some of it's like, I try to stay away from just like the politics. uh I did, I voted for Trump, and I'm very critical, and I'm very critical over the man. Very critical. He does something I don't like, very critical over him. But I think he was the I think it's a very blanket statement way of me of saying it. The Leaser of Two Evils. And I firmly believe that. But at the same time, it's, you know... It's such a loaded conversation for that. is, but there is, there's, I, my Calvinistic, uh, you know, views within me is I believe in the total depravity of man. do. I'm openly Calvinist. I totally, I agree with the, spiritual death there. And I think that it's, we see it from Genesis all the way, even still to this day, it's the where I hold to. And I think that those outside of Christ, those without God in that aspect, We're not just because we're totally deprived doesn't mean that we're we're we're constantly doing the worst that we could be doing There's still a restraint there and it's the knowledge of good and evil. Yeah, uh a totally depraved man can still do good. Can you? Can you I find it a I find this a really fascinating subject and one that one that I think is misrepresented to a lot of non Christians. I think I think people that don't that aren't Christian often hear it misrepresented and think that the lesson is that, we're just totally wicked. Everything about us is wicked. And people are like, oh, I don't really like that idea. But can you explain, like when you talk about the total depravity of man and you see it in everything, how would you define that? What does that mean? I think for a good way for me to understand it and... What it boils down to, it's separation. That's what it comes back to as from in Genesis that we were separated from God. I believe him when he says, for today, the day you eat of it, you will die. I believe that some real spiritual death actually happened there. And it doesn't take no time, bro. Within the time you see from the separation there and then they're running and trying to hide from him, they see the nakedness of their bodies. You know and he's asking who told you you were naked it's there this knowledge is there as we just said the knowledge of good and evil and Then you see it from there and in the story of Cain and Abel and next thing you know he's like you know he kills his brother and He's he asked God am I supposed to be his keeper. You know this this tendency to like it's just smart alec It's this complete this and you see it just roll through there within no time. God's already wiping the earth completely clean besides those that he is blessed with Noah and Just wipes it all the way out now That's a that's a big question for me too is but I don't want to go on to that page too much for a draw But I think that the fundamentals of it when I when I read Paul and like Ephesians and he said that you were dead in your sin and Trespasses you were dead. He didn't mean we were sick He didn't mean we were just paralyzed just crippled or anything like it. I believe that we were Dead in our sin and I mean from back to Genesis spiritually dead You may have seen my conversations on X before I've asked the question and I'm still wrapping my mind around it as if hey we're Adam and Eve and Intended to live forever and the flesh, you know And that kind of gets back to my question here is like the spiritual death or some people's like, you know flesh is a result of this death um But nonetheless I think oh I think we have the tendency to do things and even though we don't do it in our actions, Jesus lifted that so much more. He said it's not just about doing an adulterous thing with a woman. It's about just looking at her. It's something in the heart. And I think when we carry out and we don't have that restraint, um especially now, you know, take an example of an American. So we have like these some morals around the country and stuff, which is great. But I think if you eliminate the morals, from around us, even the unbelievers, restraint would even be even less held back. He would do even more. And when we see this with like abortion, ah the restraints not, it just gets worse and worse and worse. it's, I believe that God does restrain us in so many ways of things that we could be doing, maybe put roadblocks in our lives. ah But I believe that It's so profound of a thought. Let me just keep it on me. Let me keep it on me because I can discuss me the best. um I know that total depravity makes so much sense to me because I understand the individual I was before him. I understand um my heart's desires to chase after this or after that. I don't have a really humble up- church upbringing, uh a mother and father, know, listening to your podcast with Brother Chris not long ago. that really, uh I love his tender heartedness and I love, you know, how he refers to his dad as a pastor, you know, so on and so forth. like, brother, I didn't have that. I didn't have the godly upcoming on that sense. My mother and father, in fact, my father was married to another woman when he had an adult. relationship with my mom. My mom ended up pregnant with me and she still chose to have me thankfully. um You know and I didn't have that structure of a Christian home in any kind of way. Did I have a godly concept? Well then that would kind of get me in my thoughts of like well Steve when do you think you were saved? Honestly brother I can't answer that question. I can't answer the question as much as I would like to and like I'd like to have this You know, road to Damascus story, you know, I'd love to have that. I don't have that. It just, it just kind of etched in me. I don't know if that was God tugging at me over the years. but I didn't have it the time I was a teenager. I was already in drugs really, really bad. I did lots of sorts of things as a young teenager growing into a young man. drugs was a huge, huge, huge story of my life. Um, I had a. Was your mom like a nominal Christian? My mom was, she's Baptist and, she's Baptist in the sense of, um, at this time, my mom's, I mean, she's almost 70 years old and I have conversations and I try to teach her or express my faith, how I can to her. And she still learns things for me. Thankfully. Um, she's been wrapped up in some, in some things. Our health's not doing all that great, but I have two older brothers. Um, my middle older brother was really in a bag of drugs. I followed him in a lot of. And it's not, not to, he's the blame or anything like that. yeah. was just there and yeah. And then we got into other stuff. But man, um you know, I think about that when I listen to others and I hear their gentleness and I hear these things. And brother, I'm almost 37 years old. don't, again, I don't know when. Well, here we are then. ah I don't know. And I try to think on it. know, earlier I was preparing for this and I thought about it and. And one of my Bibles, one of my older ones, I don't know see it, but this is actually just like a life recovery Bible. All right. I got this in a SAP program. Now, if you don't know what a SAP program is, it's called a substance abuse program. And because I was in drugs real bad and I got incarcerated in 2010 to 2012. And when I got into this SAP program, yes, and I got into this and I started reading. And I was baptized July 12th, 2012 in the river here in Paducah. I live in Paducah, Kentucky, Western Kentucky. We have this place called the Ohio River and I was baptized in that. And I remember when I was there is it was, I was thinking this was going to be some fundamental change to my life, bro. This, this, you know, I was almost going to have like a, I don't know, almost in a blasphemous kind of way of thinking, just like the skies were going to open for me and these things were going to happen. Yeah. And it didn't happen that way at all. I'm, you know, 13 years later almost, uh I'm still struggling. I'm still struggling in my theology, my eschatology. uh I'm still struggling to try to figure out where I am, but God is so complex. And I think I have, I don't want that tendency, bro, to put him in just a box or just, you know, anything like that. Yeah. And I'm, I struggle with sorts of things like that. Am I a sinner? Absolutely. You know, I make small little comments like, man, I hate it. I hate it. So when I see other brothers like, you know, such tones in their voices and things like, bro, I didn't, I didn't come from that. So I still try to work out things in my, in my sanctification, um, from, from drugs and women. and a lifestyle that I was so prone to for so many years. I don't desire that. And that's what gives me hope is that I don't desire it. When he said, love not the world, don't desire that. I don't want no more than that. And the Lord has blessed me with a beautiful wife, beautiful kids. um And maybe that's part of my sanctification of help calm me down. um But I still struggle in my heart a lot. um The smallest. I find for me, like gentleness and kindness doesn't come easy. I mean, I had to sort of privileged upbringing, but know, parents that were divorced and I was, you know, was a hard ass. then, you know, in other ways I'm low empathy. I've always struggled with sort of emotional conversations and emotional people. And then, You know, I came to faith when I was 33, so I was later than you. But I still struggle with being gentle and kind. That's been the hardest part for me. I I'm in I live in Kentucky. I we do have this I don't know. This is a kind of a tendency as well. We southern hospitality we do I Held, you know doors open for women, you know, yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. I'm very I try to be like that But I think that's just a thing of respect but when it comes to Sometimes showing grace now, I think grace should always be should always be shown Absolutely, but I think there's an also a time when we should hold a rod out and and be firm and what we believe And I'm not gonna say like, know, like a charismatic kind of way rebuke Satan, you know do this But I believe yeah, spro said it not spro. I'm sorry What's his dispersion he said it one time What do you say Strong-spirited people are always called mean or whatever by cowards. um I'm paraphrasing in that kind of way, but I understand what he meant. um know, people standing up and trying to be firm for what they believe and what God's word says, you know, people are like, well, you shouldn't judge. You need to show this kind of thing. And then I read stories in the Bible and it's like, Lord even, yeah, like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Paul walked up in synagogues, bro, and started debating with them on their turf, you know, and calling them out, you know, Jesus called them out, you know, vipers, uh snakes, this and whitewash, you know, that gentle when he needed to be gentle. Yeah. like you find Christians that are just like, they want to define what that is. And I'm like, I don't want you to define what that is. want to be as true to the text as I can be. Which, know, or when I was talking earlier, but when we was talking about Chris, another thing y'all spoke about was Sola Scriptura. My conscience holds so tightly. It does, bro. And I can't get away from it. And I understood what y'all's conversation was with the many profess to be solo scriptora, but instead there's solo creed and things like this. And you may have seen me say things, you know, pushing against people on X or anything. And I agree that comes with my eschatological views um there. But I believe it, bro. how, you know, I understand you've been having conversations with Catholics and whatnot as well, you know, and how they Y'all made a comment about one guy like, hey, we relied on them to give us this, you know, and then now we're like, you know, well, what makes just this to be in the canon of scripture? I think God works all things according and I don't want to use that in a broad way or out of out of it for it, but I believe that it's supposed to do that. And I certainly believe that the church is still working out so many things as a preterist and as of where I've shifted now, I'm sure we'll get into it is from my full preterist perspective. I still, I guess it's a cheap way of saying it. Maybe we're still in the early church. Maybe we're still in this early perspective of how things are working out. And maybe we certainly don't understand some things now. Maybe we're figuring it out still as a whole, you know? well I think where I push back on sort of the solar scripture idea is it sort of comes from my preterist reading of the scriptures. If we read it as a narrative of events that happened and were completed and more fulfilled to establish this glorious eternal kingdom, then why are we limiting all of that to you know, one book, is, what is it 2000 pages or something, you know, like it's so much more than that. And you said even this idea, which, you know, I might not agree with you totally on it, but I think it hits the right point that like, if we're in the early church, it's like, it's a living body that will work things out over time. We'll make mistakes. You see that, I mean, see it through act, you know, you read acts, it's a 40 year period. they were, I watched a really good video. from this guy and he was like uh a archeological sort of scholar on the New Testament period. And he used a really good example. He's like, if you read like say, first and second Corinthians, he's like, you need to realize these were real letters that were written at a real point in time. So you can imagine, and you know, like they didn't have a post office back then. So like first Corinthians is sent and you think about it, it's like Paul would have been in Corinth, established the church, had people that he knew, established elders, bishops, whoever, deacons, that church has gone. Then Paul continues on his missionary journey. Then there would have been like letters and communications come from that church in Corinth who met with, it might have been a Timothy, right? Who's, Timothy's with the church in Corinth. And they're like, Hey Paul, like what about, this, you know, Timothy, what about this? What's going on with like the resurrection? Yeah, what's going on with the resurrection? What are we meant to do if we have a sinner in the church that wants to? And it's like, it's not like Timothy was like, here's all the answers. Timothy's like, good questions. Let me go back to Paul and I'll communicate it. And then he would have then spent three months traveling back to Paul and he's like, Hey, Never got all these, and it's like, Paul didn't have all the answers at every point in time either. Paul relied on the guidance of the spirit. He'd be like, okay, they're trying to work out sanctification. So then Paul is working his way through sanctification, sending a follow-up letter to those Corinthians. They received the letter and like, okay, this is what Paul is sort of saying about it now. That makes more sense to us. Now let's go and live it out. So it's like, We may, I think we make the mistake of thinking that the Canon and particularly the New Testament Canon is just like the guidebook on everything that we have to do. It's a snapshot of what was happening in the establishment of that early church, which was a living body working things out, making mistakes, but very quickly sort of transforming and taking over the world from this one itinerant preacher from Nazareth who came and died on a cross and told, you know, pronounced himself to be God and the one way to the father. And then here we are 2000 years later and that itinerant preacher, whether you believe in him or not, is the most famous name in all of world history. I think as from the revelation of... you're right. Absolutely when it comes to the letter and that's a big thing with my preterism is audience relevance. Audience relevance that this was a letter written to them. If I took one of your letters written to you and I read it in 10 years, I could not apply it to myself in any sort of way other than the grand um pointing to the Messiah. Now, however you or whatever that letter might do as long as we're pointing to the same Messiah, I think that's what now we certainly have elders, deacons, things like that. This is what Timmy that he is to establish these sorts of things is we're to have this. Great traditions in some ways to be passed down. think traditions can be very, um, catchy and that gets into kind of the Roman Catholicism kind of thing with traditions. You know, how are we supposed to pass these things down? Um, but I think in a lot of ways, yes, absolutely. I believe that scripture is not addressing, I agree with what Chris has said, um that it is not about the end of the cosmos as we understand it. I believe that this is the transition from the O test or from, excuse me, the O covenant into the new. That's firmly is what I believe that the Bible is doing. I wouldn't have said that a year ago. I was when he said that several years ago I've from shifted out of my Dispensationalism from ten years ago to push to where I am now and I never thought I would be preterist full preterist uh but I I'm absolutely I'm I'm settled with it bro. My heart settles with it 100 % I've been working it out over for several months. The biggest thing to me was the um I Was a partial preterist post-millennial for a long time with your Reform Bros. I watched Durbin too and Doug and Vadi is one of my favorite pastors. I don't agree with him on eschatology. Man, I love that man. do. The Lord has used him for me. um But yes, it's from that shift from... But I think Gary Demar was the controversy really spoke volumes to me. And mostly just because the questions. And I see these same things and I'm like, read in the book of Luke where Jesus says all things would be fulfilled. And I'm like, this is what the text says, bro. This is consistent with other spots, especially with, go back to Daniel 9, which is a good hanging point for a lot of people of eschatology. And it says, oh, know, still a vision and prophecy, noise sorts of things. I think for dispensationalists, you know, they have their excuse. They're just like, we're going to push all this in the future. I actually think dispensationalism is a lot more correct than people realise. But they get it totally wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They completely understand the first century story. They just think that the whole first century is going to happen in the 21st or 22nd century. Yeah, I mean, there's some things that I'm just in a disagreement with someone like, you know, especially Daniel 9. I don't think that it speaks of an Antichrist. I think that it speaks about the Messiah. He is the prince. Yeah. come and do and what he indeed did do. It's like, the most powerful apologetic for the truth of Christ almost in the entire Bible and they want to give it away and call it about someone else. I mean, yeah. it and then and then for no reason um Any any reason all just we're gonna stick a gap right here Thousands of years and be like well God was done with the church or I'm sorry with it You know, he put a pause on Israel now is dealing with this parentheses era and we're the church and it's just like Which I want to touch on that in a minute where y'all had the spiritual conversation about Israel such we'll get to that a second, but that I that's where, that's what they want to do is just like, wait a minute, can God not do both? Can he not deal with Israel and the church at the same time? And I'm like, there's this parentheses period and there's, you know, then you get your pre-trips, post-trips, mid-trips, you know, all those guys. Pre-mills, I get it. I understand it. I understand, you know, but the tribs like, bro, like it's right here in the text, you know, and then, and I try to point it out to a lot of people and Y'all said something to it's like speaking the Chinese to them. It really is bro It really is and I'll make little comments to some of them just sometimes I'm a bit of sarcastic, know And I don't mean to be I'm like sometimes I just want to do it in love like if they just knew me for a minute I'm like man, I'm just I'm just trying to challenge you a little bit here, but But I think I do come off some sometimes a little bit of Yeah. I don't know, a jerk maybe, but like man, I'm just trying to be firm and right to the point, bro. Like don't want to spend 30 minutes trying to go through these sorts of things. I want to get to this point. um But I agree with him on a lot of aspects. Other than the, think, back to the conservative Christian thing I made a comment about is I think, yes, I believe Israel was a focus point. I do believe that wholeheartedly the redemption of Israel and when you always have in this conversation, this is just kind of where I disagreed, um is the idea of it's you have those people that are Israel only, you have those people that is all these sorts of things. Granted, they're out there. My thing is, if I disengage, Gentile and the redemption of Israel if I if I focus it just on them it starts to I Don't know maybe it's just where I'm at bro, but things start to fall apart for me it certainly doesn't start to make sense because if that's the case and I look at things like Ezekiel 36 and I think of back to my maybe this is my Calvinistic uh Traditions in me or anything like that. I think the things like that being totally depraved And Jesus telling us to be born again. I get the concept of saying well this is supposed for Israel that they needed to be born again out of this. Well then what would be the point of Paul saying to the Galatians who were Gentiles that you were dead in your sin and trespasses, but you have been made alive is the same language. Ezekiel 36 where he says, he's speaking to Israel, the house of Israel. And he's speaking to them. He says, I will put uh my spirit within you. I will teach you my commands and my ordinances. But it doesn't, it's not referring to Gentiles in any way. It sounds as if it's only speaking to Israel. And so then my problem becomes this like, wait a minute. Either I'm nothing to do with this at all. or I'm part of that ecclesia. And I look to the martyr Stephen where he says that the ecclesia was in the wilderness. The congregation, the church, the same terminology is being used and it's God's people. And then I go back to people like Abraham and I'm like, all right, well, if we tie that with Romans nine, but yes, I mean, I understand both conversations for Romans nine of saying, well, this is corporate. And then there's the individual. A lot of me holds to corporate. but it's also speaking individual because it's just a more detailed. Corporate is a group of individuals. Yeah. speaking kind of both languages there. I'm like, I get it. But I'm like, this is the same type of language or like Jesus saying in John 10, he said, I have sheep not of this fold. And he was referring to the grasping of the Gentiles also being brought near as Galatians that Paul speaks about that you were far off, but you have been brought near these going back to Abraham. And this is before his son, Jacob, before Israel is even like here yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Abraham and to the promise that the father of many nations, many nations are going to be blessed. This is where it goes back to. And that's where the core, or I read things and saying, all right, well, it's not about the flesh. And I'm not out here like I'm a spiritual Jew. That's not what I'm saying. But I believe, I believe in an election. I believe that Israel was that point. And then Paul says that these are things of types and shadows. And I think that it's God had a people, Israel. He had a people for Himself. All those outside of them, they couldn't come through unless they converted into that to become one of God's people, to be brought near. It's the same concept now, those outside to be brought near, but Jesus is that Deliverer. He is that Shepherd that brings us near. And I think that's the grasping of the bigger picture. And that's where I'm like, all right, well, predestination, election and stuff like this. And I've had conversations with dispensationalists of saying, well, election was just the Jews. It falls apart for me, bro. The Bible doesn't make sense to me. And maybe it's a lens I'm reading it into, but a lot of my convictions are saying, no, this isn't. That I believe that we have, he has a people, a remnant, not only just in an Israel context. but a bigger context of history and that he is drawing those in. um So I look at Israel as that type and shadow, as the writer of Hebrews even speaks about these things, it was passing away, but we look uh to a greater one, to a tabernacle not built by human hands, the one of God's tabernacle. that applies to, because some of it just doesn't make sense to me if I've pullback of it sounds too dispensational these two brides these two things These two Israel church this it sounds dispensational to me and it scares me to look at it that way and I'm just like this is a type of maybe this is just where I'm at, bro, maybe this is where I'm at But when I read it and I see that even him speaking to them and he says that you were dead But you've been brought near You are here these sorts of things and I don't want to go on to feel good gospel. But I believe that God certainly gets into the individual even more, know, even not just his church, not just the body, which we are members of this body that make up a whole body. Yes. But I believe that he, he, I believe that he wept when Lazarus, even though he knew it, he said was going to happen. I think he still touches us um in ways. um I believe he's very real. um And I don't know if that's, you know, there's It just makes more sense to me to read scripture that way. um Maybe am I wrong? I don't know. But sometimes I try to draw back from making everything so complex of hitting this check mark, this check mark, this check mark, this check mark. And I believe, you know, it's I think there's certainly fundamental things to understand. Absolutely. But I believe in the simplicity and the sovereignty in His grace is such a bounding. I think those are big things that have to be expressed. That we wasn't... Back on me, I wasn't looking for him, bro. I was lost in my life, my drugs, alcohol, women, prison, all these sorts of things. I wasn't looking for him. But that I was that sheep, bro, that ran off. Now, we can go on a product with some content and I get it. That's not a... I agree with you. That has to do with Israel. 100%. But again, I think these are sorts of things that just maybe they have a purpose and it's kind of going back to the solo scriptura thing is that these all have a context for which they were written. But nothing is new under the sun, according to Ecclesiastes. Nothing is new. All these sayings are the same. We still have the same tendency, the same things to go on. um And I think for the goodness of the gospel within the heart of it. this, whom this Messiah was, this promised Messiah that we read about in the Old Testament when he says that all these things were written about me. I believe those, I believe him. And I believe as in Hebrews 4.16 is that we, know, this is the greatest privilege is that I get to go into my locked room, close the door, lock the door, get on my knees. and pray to him and I'm in his parousia. I'm in his presence. I'm there because he's within me as the individualistic making up the same corporate body. And then when I get to share into the same truth with brothers and sisters that I know as however you want to say the word elect, I don't care. I'm not one of those Calvinistic kind of guys like, it's only the elect. If you're not the elect, I get it, The gospel needs to go to everyone. Let God do the watering. We just plant the seed. I look at these sorts of things and it's where the goodness of the gospel really makes sense when we get ourselves out of the way. You haven't really asked me that question yet, but I'll go ahead and answer to it anyways. What's the point? That's the point. um It's to glorify God, to know Him. And I don't want to be like, well, I'm not one of those guys like well let go religion. want relationship. Absolutely I'm not one of those people because it's so broad. I think God has a systematic way he wants to be represented Worshipped things like that sort um but I I do believe when it comes down to things maybe the and I don't want to imagine things but I imagine the things that that aren't written, and I'm not going outside the solo scriptura thing for myself in this, don't take me wrong on this, in my way, but I'm saying there's some things that aren't written, the laughter, the tears, the hugs, the things like that that these apostles experienced with him. They loved him. I mean, they loved him and he loved them. Think of memories with brothers or sisters and things and the love you have, know, for them, the tears you shed. I mean, they had problems, everyday issues. They had struggles. And I'm sure a lot of them brought those things to him. At the same time, I think keeping our eyes on him. And not so much on that, you know, I don't want to take symbolism out of him walking on water, but things like that. You he was showing who he was. It was a sign of who he was. um The works that I do, if he said, if I don't do these sorts of things, don't believe me. There's all kinds of miracles and things that he did. um But I think there's more to that in that story that we can grasp, um you know, keeping our eyes on him, who he is. And I don't want to get really evangelical kind of soft like this is a person. That's not what I'm trying to do. But I do believe in a relationship away because when I, for myself, and not that I'm anybody, but I feel like that same tax collector that even couldn't look upon God and he's sat in the distance and pound his chest knowing he's a sinner. And when I feel that way, that's where I want to be. At his feet, at his, I don't want praise, I don't want any of these sorts of things. You know, and then we get in, maybe we'll get into the resurrection conversation. You know, I talk with individuals and it wasn't a big deal for me to let that go. People like, well, you deny the resurrection. I've heard it, bro. Like you deny the resurrection of the saints. You deny the gospel. How so? Nobody's explained that to me yet because I don't deny the physical resurrection of Jesus in any sort of way. I don't deny the physical ascension, nothing along them lines. Now, where that went about after he left, I don't know. I think the Bible is silent about that. It's not for me to pick at. But I believe that he physically got up and he physically did these sorts of things. um there's so much broads. Theology is a deep topic, No, it is. Well, so the other thing, like, as you're talking about some of these stories and you're like, you you use the prodigy, the prodigal son, you're like, yeah, this is a story about Israel. makes total sense to me. Doesn't mean it can't be a very true story for us as individuals as well. And it's like, I've heard, I mean, I don't know how much you've gone into the whole Israel only crowd. I don't pay too much attention to them because I think They bring in, these are just guys that don't want to believe and get intellectual and then they bring in presuppositions that they must use in order to have their system work. They're really interested in trying to find out what the truth of it is. But there's a lot of guys in this Israel only sort of movement that will draw on, they'll try to just say that the scriptures are just another myth. And you you can see these similar stories in all these other ancient mythologies. And they'll make that point as if it's a win and say, Hey, like, because we see things that Jesus did in stuff that happened in 500 BC and other cultures, that means that it's just a copy. I'm like, I don't think so. think if the claim that Jesus is the logos is true. then the logos is the true thing, it's the real thing that permeates all cultures over all time and therefore you would expect to see allusions to Jesus in it but not even copycats, even like... beforehand, too. People trying to make it. I think some of them are grasping at straws, just trying to grab at stuff. But also think like, I mean, imagine like a thousand BC before the gospels had came and, you know, some tribe in the lands of Northern America or Australia or wherever, you know, they've never met an Israelite before. I don't doubt there was people there that were seeking to know their creator, you know, and they probably had become convicted of their own sin and realized there was something more. created these stories, I'm sure that I don't think God was entirely hidden from them. I think God helped all these other different people to recognize the Messiah when he would come into the sort Hellenized world. And that would mean, I mean, you sort of see it with like Paul when he would go to the, uh you know, the hill at Athens and be like, this unknown God that you guys have a statue for. He came, his name was Jesus Christ. So it's like, these stories that people created to try to make meaning of the world all pointed to the Messiah. You didn't just need to look in the Hebrew scriptures to find Christ. I think he was everywhere. I think it was a lot of it that I'd... I think it's hard for me to explore it when I'm honest. I think it is. It's hard for me to explore it. um And what I mean by that is I trust God to be God and do with what he needs. I do say this, um you know, not out of pure ignorance for all and all of humanity, because if, you know, and I've had a conversation with universalists before, especially, and what I mean by this is, um you know, Maybe it's the universe was conversation with, with them, but I guess it's, it's kind of like, look at it if. If people aren't punished by what they didn't know on that aspect, then the most harmful thing we could do is go tell them about this. Because now they would be acknowledging what, you know, I guess that's kind of hard to explain there. If people are saved outside of Christ, not knowing this Messiah, not knowing these sorts of things, now I'm gonna let God be God again. I don't, just to be clear, I don't believe that. yeah, yeah, yeah. didn't think you did but at the same time as it's kind of touching on it is for those that are outside so I I Guess I look at like a Romans 3 kind of thing. There's I think it's Romans 3 all of creation um Basically exposing God like he's yeah, he's there. You can't count it really deny it um So everyone has had this, you know, we see the different pagan gods of how people want to worship here worship there We all know there's a God. I believe that there's not such thing as an atheist. You can say you're atheist all you want. don't believe that for a second. You just want to suppress the truth as Paul says. um Ikeism at its core gives people an out. Yeah. religion. It's like it wholeheartedly They're just like, you know, they'll push on to the science thing and then you get in the conversation, you know Evolution and Big Bang and all those kind of atheist guys and like well, so it spawned from nothing, know So nothing created nothing And it really just pulls it's a religion for them. It really is It's just a different systematic falsehood is that they have there um But But what about you real quick? I didn't hear any Chris has this, but I have to ask a little bit. um Where do you stand with a couple of the things that I've said so far? I'm very open Calvinist. um I've said that now wherever. I know some people have said they've drawn back from it a little bit. I'm not a cage state Calvinist running around my Romans nine, know, thumping it on everyone. I'm not one of those guys, but I'm certainly Calvinistic and And I understand that you are a full Preterist now, right? Okay, so... Where did your journey... Help me a little bit here. Where did your journey and what was your clicking point? So maybe I can see if I'm kind of on the same page... to Preterism. so I, it's funny, we were sort of touching on this in the first part of our conversation. I came to faith in 2021, so deep into the whole COVID thing and became like convinced that we were living in the end times. So, know, there's a global world government and I mean, there's not a conspiracy hole that I haven't been down. But I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty, I'm sort of hyper rational and objective. So I can look at, I could spend 20 hours looking at flat earth content and not be like triggered by it and think these people are insane. I can look at it and be like, here's a good points, but here's the points I think they're making that are wrong. I can, I reckon I've probably looked at the whole lizard, lizard people theory. I think that's that. That's But I'm but I'm like, I don't believe in it. And I don't believe in Flat Earth either. But so I'm like, I can look at I can look at all this stuff. So I I came to the view that there is a sort of a global cabal that are trying to totally enslave us. And then that sort of led me into that led me into the church, which was sort of the it was the wrong way to come to faith because I, don't think I don't think my face was solidified until I became convicted of sin. And I think that's a lesson he said. I sort of, I poke at the bear with a few of these sort of Christian conspiracy theorists, you know, on X and they, you know, they're just rattling on about other people's evil all the time. You're like, if you don't think Christ has come to solve a problem in your own heart, then brother, you've got it wrong. And your faith isn't built on much, you know, so. So I was, but I say that to make the point that I was like hardcore focused on like, could see all, I could see all the conspiracies. I could see everything that was happening. And a lot of these things are real. Like they are happening. I now hold the view that this stuff is not as coordinated as we would like to think. I think the world is a lot more chaotic. It's just a lot more chaotic and the sin of man combining with other sin of men to try to establish dominions, whatever I'm trying to do. And they can, but they can never do it. Nothing's new under the sun. It's been tried over and over and over. Um, so I sort of became convinced of these sort of cabal and that, but then I was reading. So I was, I was desperate to try to understand the end types. It was my mate when I'm, when I'm reading the Bible and studying the Bible, I'm listening to revelation studies. I'm reading revelation. I'm reading Daniel. You know, I'm not doing, I'm doing that a whole lot more than I'm reading the gospels. And then I, and I just kept getting stuck. Like I'd land on different ideas, you know, and you see this online where you've got your pre-trip guys, your post-trip guys, and they're all, they all have their system and they land on basically the exact same thing because they've got their verses that they have to use to make their system work. And then you got the other guys that have a different system that take a different view on those versus. So, so everyone's in all these camps, but one thing with me is I, I can't believe in, I can't convince myself that something is truth if I know deep down that it's not. So I was sort of like a, I don't know, a pre-trib, I sort of journeyed into dispensationalism, but not too much. Cause I was always like, I saw the sort of I saw how corrupt Israel, you know, 1948 Israel was. So I didn't really ever see them as fulfillment. I thought people trying to say they'll fulfill. It was pushing a bit. So I had all these different positions. I was like, none of it works. I was like, there's verses that destroy my position here. I know I, I know I'm wrong. I know, I don't know what it is, but I know this system, there's, there's something I'm missing here. And, and I was just, you know, this reading. watching heaps of YouTube studies on it. And then I was like, you know, I'm just going to throw all this out and just, I need to just a refresher. And then I went and read, I actually think the first thing I did was I read something about Daniel, not, you know, Daniel nine, such a lynch pin verse for end times. And I remember reading this thing saying that, um, you know, here's the different interpretations of it. And, there's also this very fringe interpretation that Martin Luther had that Daniel 9 27 was actually talking about the Messiah. And when I first read that I was like, well, that's a bit like, that's ridiculous. This is a anti-Christ verse. But that's, I don't know, something about that stuck. And then I went and just read it for myself. stopped reading commentaries. I stopped watching YouTube videos. And I was like, I read Daniel 9. I'm like, this is just all about Jesus. How, how on earth am I putting in here? this sort of antichrist and then that led me to, and then I was like, okay, so if, you make down to 9.27 about Jesus, not antichrist, that opens up everything everywhere else. You're like, so then I saw, and then I started to see all this time statements and all this other stuff. I'm like, this is, this has happened. There's been something, you know, where I went first, I don't know whether I've mentioned this. I don't know whether you knew it, but I then got to the little season thesis. Have you come across that? Mm. Little season thesis is insanity, but it's, it's almost true. Like it's, they get a lot, right? So what little season, most little season guys are like what I was back then. You see all the evidence of a first century Parasite and the imminency of all of the New Testament scriptures. But then you look at the world around you and you're like, well, there's evil everywhere. There's all these conspiracies, Satan's everywhere. They're trying to do this to us. They're trying to do that. Therefore the only system that works, cause of course no one's thinking for preterism at that point is to say that we're in the little season of Revelation 27 to 10. Where it all happens uh and then Satan will be released for a short season and then there's the Gog and Magog and then, then yeah, he's devoured. So I landed in little season. I tell you what, if you want to go down some crazy rabbit holes. Look at the little season guys and the theories they come up with. they'll be like, the camp of the saints is actually Jesus with all the believers of the first thousand years and they're in um the North Pole at the moment. And they've set up a camp at the site. It gets completely insane. And then there's all these conspiracies around. America and Russia have some uh plan to, you know, they're hiding things in the North Pole and there's going to be a global government that's going to be established and the whole world is going to go against the aliens that they say are in the North Pole. it's actually, so I say it, I mean, it is, it's, it's complete madness, right? So I was in this little season sort of, because I thought it was the only way that the scriptures worked. I was in this idea for maybe a month or two and I was like, this is just, there's too much madness in this. And then the big thing that shifted for me was just seeing that what was the kingdom and what was established and what was meant to happen and what is, who is Satan, what is Satan? And then, and then it's, and then it's verses like, you know, Isaiah 66 and 2 Peter three, 10, I think it is about like what this new heaven and earth would be and how there's still sinners there. There's still people dying there. There's still, yeah. And I was like, well, hang on. I think I've just got wrong. What was promised. And then I started to look at what was promised. And then I think it's, I don't have it all worked out. And there's, and maybe then this will segue into some questions I've got for you on it around. I don't know what it means in terms of is there ever an end of this physical world? What happens exactly when we die? You know, is this the kingdom fully realized here or is this a new heaven and earth and we just live on the new earth but the new heaven is where we go for eternity? this, and within within preterism, no one agrees on any of these points. It just gets back to the same pro-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. There's individual body preterists that all have their verses and then there's corporate body preterists that all have those verses. So the more and more I get to this, and this is what gets me to this whole sort of solar scriptura argument is like, I just don't think the New Testament is ever sought to tell us a story about everything that would happen from the you know, the end of the first century up until the end of the world. It's just, it's, it's telling us a story about the creation of the new covenant, which has been created. And then, so that's, yeah, that's where I've got to now. I've been wrong too many times to be too set on anything. I'm certain there's elements of full preterism that I've got wrong, but I clearly see fulfillment and I see the establishment of something great and something grand that I think has transformed and taken over the world. I I haven't got into those guys the short season. Maybe I just have been in a box a little bit, but some stuff I scroll right past some people and I don't listen to some things. It's interesting what you said is something when you're reading the text, it's the fulfillment um and to where you just touched Daniel nine. um that you was reading with the same lens I was. We had this set of lens of a system that you're reading onto the text. And I don't know, man, I came out of the dispensational thing, I think when I started to shift into my little Calvinistic kind of soteriology, that's where I started to kind of really shift. I guess that was about, what, 20? I guess I've been a Calvinist probably about seven years, six, seven years, give or take. And that's where I started shifting to all millennial. Maybe that was a little bit of influence and stuff like that. If I'm truly honest, maybe some of that I fit around more guys that I was around Beards tattoo cigars and whiskey, you know, it's just like Maybe I gravitated to that a little bit But I started to listen to some and then y'all mentioned Jeff Durbin. He has been a huge blessing I believe not only just to myself to a lot of people I think there's certainly people in history that Lord has used with a profound um outreach um and he helped me with Matthew 24 as well. And then when I started reading the time statements, um that's what really broke me was the time statements when I really started to pay attention to them. Cause now I'm like, I don't understand how dispensationalist or dispensationalist. If you just read the text without the system, I don't understand how you are a dispens- pre-tribulation raptured dispensationalist. I don't, I- like, it's like people will point it, they're like, oh, but read Romans 11, read Romans 11. I'll say, yeah, look at verse five. It says, at this present time, like. amen. And there's there's so many of those timestamps, man. and aren't they do. people just flat out and someone said it. And I think they summed it up well when it comes to sort of seeing fulfillment. It's like you reach a point where you just decide I'm going to take, I'm going to stop ignoring the time texts. You either take them seriously or you ignore them. Amen and and the gap theories of stuff that they're doing between you know, Daniel This was I think it's between Daniel 25 26 or 24 25 somewhere in there where they stick the gap This church age gap and then they do the same thing with the book of Revelation. They're like, well, I ask all the time Well, what about John and verse 1 and verse 3 where he says the times near and soon to come and even places in verse 9 He's like, I'm part of this tribulation like he's placing himself in this Yeah. no, in chapter four, verse one, John is caught up and they're like, well, this is the rapture. This is where the church leaves. And then the church isn't mentioned anymore. I'm like, so who are the saints here, bro? Are we not serving the same Christ, the same? Like, what are you talking about? think it's a, I mean, I'll be blatant with it. People hate, this is not sort of judging. I don't know anyone's individual heart, but a lot of these people I think follow a totally different faith to what I do. Yeah. that I said that on X a while ago and I know I mean I love people like John MacArthur I love brother John I do but you hear and when you your eschatological view really shapes your worldview and every kind of way in every kind of way and how you're gonna live and how you kind of do these things and I it's it scares me when I'm watching I see it through Twitter all day long bro is just the people that this is a new sign that the gods coming soon this is gonna be soon this is happening soon and it's like bro when do we yeah, yeah, it's escapism and it's like oh Jeff did a good video with I think was dr. Sanders. I think his name is semi-nauseous is this escapism and it's It does have a lot of the same tendencies as this God of the Old Testament and we have the New Testament here and it's like, well, they're not in difference to each other, bro, in any kind of way. You know, but it's this, I want to escape, want to escape, I want to escape. And it's just like, why are we brushing or polishing a brush on a sinking ship? We're about to leave. And it's just like, like, bro, like, what are you doing? And then they go through these things and they share these verses and stuff. And they're just like, you know, this is proves this. And I'm like, I want to have more respect and it irritates me bro. It does. And I don't know if it's a righteous anger. I don't know if it's just what it is about. I don't know, but it, sometimes really bothers me. like, why are you just doing that bro? Like, why are you taking his word and just doing whatever you want to do with it? Just saying it out here, you know, and it's in the pushback sometime I get the pushback and even sometimes when I'm just trying to be nice and just respectful if I, if I almost like a spirit from them. I don't want to say like charismatic way, but I'm saying like the spirit of gentleness and stuff like that. They're pretty gentle and like I've tried to be gentle with people and it's like you get blocked or you get called a heretic for asking certain questions. Like, dude, I'm just asking the text, but I'm with you, bro. I just started wanting to read the text and when I see things that, you know, the the audience relevance, the time statements and Daniel 12 kicked me in the face, bro. yeah, yeah. 12 kicked me and I think that was the one that was like, you know what? I'm settling here. I don't care what you call me. Call me what you want to call me a heretic and apostate this, that, and the other. I'm like, all I disagree with you is we have the same gospel. Our gospel isn't any shifted in any kind of way. I believe in the same exact message from this perspective. The only thing I disagree with you guys on them on even from my posture brothers, there's a lot I disagree with. I'm the dispensational brothers. There are brothers and sisters in this sensationalism. I'm not gonna say there's not absolutely But but the partial preterist bro is there that you know that kind of tendency to pull back and if I could touch real quick This is what helped me with the Gary DeMar thing is the is how he was treated For asking the questions just hey, we all read it. We all see it, bro Why are y'all not wanting to answer the questions and then you got people getting on on YouTube just like Gary DeMar is wrong He's an apostate. He's this that near I'm like, wait a minute I won't have a discussion with him. Yeah. I want to these debates I want to answer these questions and stuff and it's just like we're all seeing the same text bro. It's like I would Would I be okay with being wrong as a full Preterist if you can show me as a partial person I'm open to it 100 % bro. I I promise I am if you are a partial Preterist and you can convince me through the text with Great exegesis hermeneutics all those sorts of things in a good Bible study to show me know this is actually speaking of a physical Resurrection at the end of the cosmos if you can show me that through the text in any kind of way I will recant every single thing I said about full preterism and have no problem going back to it and be on my hands and knees in prayer Asking the Lord forgive me 100 % but the more I read it bro The more more read it the more I study and I've sat right here at my desk with several different Bibles open I look like that one meme with the guy with the conspiracy thing showing if you know what I'm talking about. I his hands up on the board I've been that guy on this desk notes Highlighters pins studying in prayer and I believe when I I don't believe the dance He said if you ask me I will give it to you and I've asked I believe him and I I'm not saying that my prayer has led me to the belief because guess what? Dispensation will say the same exact thing You know, I'm not gonna say that but I want to Yeah, yeah this like Yeah different different everything but what I want to be led by is just, I believe that I'm not, we're not stupid. I'm not saying this is sensational, it's not stupid, there's very intelligent ones. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying is, it's where I land, it's where I read it and I'm reading somebody else's mail. And I wanna read that mail with respect. I want to know God in every way I can. Sometimes it's too much. Sometimes I have days where I won't touch it for a couple of days. I just have to work it out in my head. I have to get relief. But where I sit is with physical resurrection. That's what pushed me over. It's like where that's where I'm out of the camp of that. What I do with Satan yet. I don't know, Bubs. I still have that conversation. I don't know what to do with that. um But as for the physical resurrection. It's hard conversation. It is a really hard conversation. It's hard to defend in any way. So I kind of stay away from I'm just like, I don't know, bro. I don't know what to do with it. I'm still working that out. But as for the physical resurrection, know, people are like, you well, you're not going to have your physical body, bro. I don't care. It doesn't affect me in any kind of way for myself. Maybe I'm wrong for that. I don't know, man. But I've said it for a long time is that is you touch on something you said a second ago was or a little while ago about talking about what happens at their death idea. I mean, I believe is in for the aspect is when I'm that I am covered by the the atonement of Christ. I believe that through my faith. And I believe that when I stand before Him, I am not judged upon anything that I have done, but I do believe we give an account, not so much on the sins that we have done. I don't believe that because He says He cast them as far as the east is from the west. I believe that wholeheartedly. I think it's maybe love for somebody to help me on that if they want. But I think for the stance of that judgment is that judgment is we are found under Christ, under that blood. of an atonement of Christ. And what I'm asked about is not what I've done in my sinfulness, but what have I done to receive the rewards in the body of Christ? What have I done? What have I helped to grow the gospel? What seeds have I planted? These sorts of things. But at the same time, I'm with open arms and welcome this not because of anything I've done, but because of what He has done on my accounts. When God sees me, He sees that's the atonement. That's straight up the atonement. So when I give up my breath here, I believe that I stand before Him right then. I believe that the resurrection that it speaks about, especially in John 5, is that I've been brought from death to life. That is my resurrection. My physical tent will fall, but I have a better body by God as 2 Corinthians 5 that is waiting for me, a heavenly temple, a heavenly tent that is with Him, seated with Christ. That's the one that I will receive I'm not worried about this physical body to come back later Because I believe that when I stand before God I am made perfect in all righteousness right then not waiting for my body to be perfect I think that that's the stance that I will receive and and for myself and I've said it a long time This is where my heart sits is that my heaven? My glorification the how I don't want it, bro. I'm okay with being behind to Billion other saints and Christians in the far far back just to be climbing up in a tree to see him walk by I Got no problem saying that I got no problem being that guy to see him in the distance to lay eyes upon the true Messiah I have no problem with saying that at all, but I hope This is is my this is for me and him I hope is that when I give up my breath here and that I trust in his and in his atonement of his work that the first thing I get to do, the first thing, is to squeeze Him and cry. That's what I want. Not from what I've done, not from all these sorts of things, but out of pure bliss and thankfulness for what our Messiah has truly done for us, because I don't deserve it, and nobody else deserved it, and I believe wholeheartedly is that this is the point, especially with the New Covenant, is that He has done what we could not do. We couldn't do it. couldn't fail, king after king after king. Yeah. after leader after leader failed and when I read guys like about Psalms 51 our brothers like David that murdered a man and slept to the woman and fell to his knees in prayer and agony and I feel his tears and I believe when somebody like that in that was called a man after God's own heart brothers like that that gives me hope not that I killed anyone that's all I'm saying yeah, yeah. that, not that it, but I've done sins just as much to send me to hell. Let me say that real quick. But at the same time, that kind of thing gives us hope. And the Messiah, and I'm not waiting for a Messiah to show up later on. My Messiah showed up. He did what he was going to do. And he brought that covenant and put an end to sin, as he said in Romans, or in Daniel 9. He put an end to it. And not as if we just stopped sinning. No, no, no, no, no. He made an atonement for the sin. And where there is no law, there is no sin. He did away with that law. Absolutely. So. So what about Steve? What do you think about, you know, there's, there's hangups that people have when they start to see fulfillment. What's your thoughts? Like, let's say something like the apostle's creed that like, you know, he'll, he'll come to judge the living and the dead. Do you, do you think there's like, is that what's, how do you understand ideas like judgment for the unrighteous and the unbeliever now? think- 2000 years on. I think for the same perspective everyone dies. um this is what I I try to come back to where people is like, all right Well the end of and and the creed thing i'm kind of with I got a problem with the creed. Uh, just Point me to the chapter in verse how you got there. How what are you saying here? What are you? How are you? What text can I look at here to help me with that there because I have no problem with saying well, um The earth fled, the skies rolled up, all these sorts of things happened. And even for my partial Preterist brothers, they have no problem saying, well, this book of Revelation, especially a lot of them, like Ken Gentry or anyone, says, well, the majority of the book of Revelation is in the past. Really? You agree with that? Okay, cool. Then why is in Revelation 11, we're speaking about a final judgment? It's in Revelation 11, you stick it in the past. You want to pull that out of its place and then stick a relation 20 and then put it in our future But all these other things so I think I think the judgment there it's a very Hard understanding there for me. I think a lot of the judgment was upon Israel at that point I think that that was the entire point of that and I think it's always going back to apocalyptic language. I Don't know my video. I'm still can you still hear me oddly? Yeah, and I can still see your video too. I think it died though, so I'm going to plug up and keep going. I think... um It was all about Israel in that perspective. I'm gonna try to kill my cam and then bring it back up in a second. Now what happens beyond that? I believe the same thing applies to them as it does us. We are appointed to die once and then judgment. So you either are going to away from Christ or to be with Christ. That's what it's gonna boil down to. I my cams to stop, so I'll just leave this off. fine. No, that's all right. Have you come across Sean McMahon yet? Sean did an episode with me. So Sean's a full preterist who became Catholic a year ago. Oh, hang on. Can you still hear me? I don't know why I did that, but here let me kill that cam though. That's right. I'll just edit it out. um Yeah, I'll just keep going and then I'll chop it out. yeah, so Sean's the full Preterist who became Catholic like a year ago. And he's done some really interesting studies sort of um trying to reconcile the two and reconcile our understanding of things like judgment and resurrection about how perhaps the church has got it wrong over time. And he was talking about, he's like, you know, people say, well, how can you be a Catholic and you don't completely agree with the apostle, apostles creed. And he's like, I'm not sure I don't agree with it. And then we were, we were discussing, said like, look at 12, cause he would say, I still believe that he will come to judge the living and the dead. And then we were like, look at Luke 12, 35 to 48, right? and it starts, dressed in readiness and keep your lance lit like men who waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast uh so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. like Matthew 25, basically. Same idea. goes, yeah, he says, um, yeah, blessed are those who the master will find alert when he comes, you know, uh, and then he's, um, be, be sure of this, the head of the house, knowing what the thief was coming, he would not be allowed to enter his house to be broken into. Um, and then Peter said, are you addressing this parable to us or to everyone else as well? And then, then who then is the faithful and sensible steward whom his master will put in charge of his servants to give them rations at the proper time. Blessed is that slave from whom his master finds so doing when he comes. But if the slave says in his heart, my master will be a long time in coming and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women eat and drink, the master that slave will come on a day when he doesn't expect him and at an hour that he does not know him and cut him into pieces and sign him in a place with the unbelievers. So That's talking about, and then that exact same language is used in Matthew 24 about the parousia and the coming at the end. If you read that in Luke 12, that's talking about a very individual, where he says, but if this slave says this, then he'll come at a different time. That's sort of suggesting to me like an ongoing parousia and an ongoing judgment. that he's very much like individual. So it could be that like Matthew 24 is talking about the sign of his coming. Like what's gonna be the sign that the Parasite is here? And that's talking about the end of Israel. But then from that point forward, I could read Luke 12, 35 to 48 and think, well, that's actually, that can be talking about a first century Israelite, just like it could be talking about a 21st century. American or Australian, you know, that the, that maybe, and it's the same as like, um, Martha and Mary, when the disputing Lazarus and Jesus says, you know, what's going to happen? Oh, well, we know on the last day he'll be raised up. And Jesus is like, nah, I am the resurrection. Like forget this idea you have about a last day resurrection of your body. Like I'm here. So it's like, I, I'm leaning towards this idea. And I'm still working it out. I'm sure I've got it wrong, but maybe like the judgment and the resurrection can be an ongoing thing, an ongoing reality through all of time. Yeah, I'm not against that in that same individual aspect. I look at this one from chapter 12, which he was reading in 35 through 48. I look at the beginning, well, there was thousands around him. So he's not speaking directly just to his apostles, but he's speaking to everyone. So this is a broad statement in which he's saying all these sorts of things. So absolutely, I think this could be to individual. Now, if it's, think of things like the hour coming. You didn't expect him. I think this gives language, kind of like the Olivet Discourse. Is this referencing to 70 AD? Possibly. But I think the broader aspect there too is yeah, just the hour you don't expect. I mean, some people know when they're about to die. I mean, whether you're in sickness and stuff like that. overall, the hour doesn't be ready. I think the principle to that is you should be Everyone should be ready. The same kind of what I said, Matthew 25, have your lampstands kind of ready with oil in them, plenty to be, you burned. could be a bit, or can be at any given moment. Now I don't, as in for the whole judgment thing is if I want to be a full Preterus, I have to be consistent in my full Preterus. And I want to hold that as like I'm saying well the the great white judgment I believe that was pointed towards Israel at this point has to do with them now does God back come back and Clean it up, you know, not really, you know, said obviously we have no vedic covenant So he's not gonna destroy the world with water anymore, but he didn't say fire He didn't say this instead. No, I don't think God's one of those kind of ways I think that the things that he made and he called good And when God calls something good, it is good. um I don't see a reason for, yeah, I mean, just like, I mean, the kingdom's here. I I see these sorts of things. These, you know, it didn't come with observation, as we said. um other than the signs of his coming. But that wasn't just the coming for like the end of the cosmos. I mean, that was the coming. I mean, this is the Messiah, the promised Messiah. He's quoting Daniel 9 so much and all this, know, Daniel 7. So I think this was the enthronement. This is an ascension language, not decent. Like this not him not coming back. This was his ascension and being seated at the throne. This reflects Daniel 7. Revelation 1 Revelation 11 all these things are the same kind of language of judgment So it's kind of I Don't know. I think the individualistic kind of view is On point honestly, I think I think it's very on point as a corporate Bro, I don't know. mean, as we said originally, this, feel like this is the end of the old covenant into the new covenant. And that's what the Bible is talking about. It's what its focus point is. um If he's going to come back and destroy what he, you know, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't think the Bible speaks of that. So it's where it's silent. I'm going to be silent. eh think, I think when I've seen it, you know, like guys in preterism are super smart and really, really good with their scriptures more than any other, more than any other sort of sect. Yeah. And yeah, and like this, yeah. But it's like, I know to, you know, I've had them on as guests on the show. know. two different people that both I would consider in that camp and they both have a totally different interpretation of one element of it. Now that just tells me that we're not given the full story. And there are things that we're silent on, I think, when we try to piece every single element of it together. we end up losing our consistency. No, I mean, you're right. You're right. I think precepts start taking over and we start to try to let our mind wander and put things in there that aren't supposed to be there. know, I'd have been part of, you know, the greatest Bible study ever. And that's when Jesus revealed, you know, all the things about himself in scriptures. know, I mean, that'd been the greatest Bible study ever, you know, to understand. can you imagine how many of these smart, uh, know, students of the scriptures were just totally wrong? Yeah. I am I have no problem with that I when I read about the gospel and and and I look back to you know I pointed out to a lot of people that are like well the gospel is a revelation or I'm sorry first Corinthians 15 verse 1 through 4 Well, yeah, that's the first important see but I think there's more to they should keep reading bro, and I think a kingdom is a big of his message. I mean when Jesus comes in his first words in his ministry, bro, repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Those are his first words in his ministry after he's baptized. So it's like there's something about this kingdom that has to be presented. There's something about this sitting on a throne, this Messiah, this promised Messiah that has to be presented. So that's where I get into the, know, that's where I kind of shy against dispensationalists. They're like, well, if Satan is the God of this world and Yeah, it's so defeat- so just utterly defeatist. You're like, dude... Yeah. Yeah. he's got to come down here and sit on an actual throne. Like you want to sit on a throne made by hands. said, come on, bro. Like just and that kind of bothers me. um And I got to touch a second with the Satan thing before it loses my mind, um where I said, I don't understand. um I don't understand what to do with him, but I don't want to think of him in a way at the same... and I'm guilty of this, bro, and I think many, many Christians are, and I don't want to... I'm so guilty of it. I don't want to think of Satan in an omnipresent way. I don't want to think of him that way of any attributes like, yeah, you're making him just like God, and it's like, can Satan speak into my mind kind of things? Is he God? Or is he Satan? He had to show up in a serpent to talk to Eve. Like he didn't just speak to her in her head. He spoke audibly to her from a snake kind of things. he's so I don't know what to do with Satan, but I know the precepts I've had of Satan, know, there's this horns and living in hell and, and, and, know, like, don't, I don't know what to do with him. Um, the binding of him, I was cool with as a partial Preterist, um, post-millennial, I had no problem like, He's bound we have all of these texts that are showing that he's bound these sorts of things and then once I shifted to full It's like bro. I don't know what to do with this him being defeated I don't know what to do with this and and and I kind of do go back to well man is sinner I don't need Satan running around here telling me to sin. I'm really good at it myself. I don't need him to do that the same. I look at my own life. I don't need any, nah. He can, you know, but I don't where I sort of sit on it is I think, again, I think the New Testament is telling the story of, know, it's telling the grander story, but one element of that story is the Satan being the adversary to the true children of God, who was the corrupted old covenant priesthood being defeated, being deadbound. And I think that all happened. Now what- What a lot of preterists will do and this is certainly what I did for an element is that they'll say Satan is Satan is 100 % the old covenant corrupt priesthood and There's no such thing as therefore. There's no such thing as Satan anymore, but where I I think I'm starting to move to where I disagree with that is if Satan is the adversary and an adversary that God can raise up to sharpen his church, I think at times, and to test us and to challenge us, then just because the Satan of the New Testament was destroyed doesn't mean there can't be more Satan's moving forward. And I think there's ample evidence of Satan's in the world and Satan's who come up against the church. I don't take the view that Satan is an individual spirit, that takes on the form. I think it's just it's a spiritual adversity, a spiritual sorry, adversary, that the one that we read about in the New Testament is gone, but that can continue to exist forever. I don't I don't think we're ever promised a world where we're not given exactly. Yeah, but but it was you know, the accuser under the law is different because we I mean, you and I were never born under the mosaic while it was gone 1900 years ago. So it's, and that's, you know, the accuser under the law was this old covenant corrupt priesthood who would, you know, strain it a nat as Jesus said with them, but then go and swallow a camel. So that accuser isn't there for us, but we have spirits, we have all sorts of spiritual adversaries and they sharpen us and they're for our good. Same as when, you know, God sent, a Satan and adversary to David in Chronicles, you know, to, number the children of Israel. He used Satan's all the time. Um, yeah, you Satan in used adversaries in job to test and challenge job for his good. So, so I, I, solid point. That just got my mind racing in different places just then. um I don't know if I have a position because I said I don't really know what to do with it. And at same time, I had to not give him the attributes of God in any kind of way. So I don't know what to do with it. um Maybe God will show me something to do with it. But I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's something I need to study more. um of many of them. I I do see um things like in Revelation where it's, you know, the power of Satan, like he's given this power by him. I think if you look at Job, there's aspects of ways that seems like almost like a almost like a concept. I'm not I don't want to say I don't want to say it that way because I feel like that'd be a blasphemous way of saying I don't want to say it. But there's a ways and, you know, storms or taking of life, you know, things he was able to do towards Job. only with the permission of God. Well, then there's Judas. like, I was reading this last week being sort of Holy week, the gospel account of, you know, Jesus's passion. And it's due, you know, they're at the last supper and then Judas is there and then says, then Satan entered into him. Now, I don't really have a good answer for that. My description I've just given then doesn't really, how does an adversary... enter into him. I can see how he became an adversary but that certainly does read as though some spirit entered into him. Which is, I've sort of changed my tune on spirits and demonology. I would have said that demons, certainly the Covenant creation guys will also, demons are just an analogy to talk about, you know, infirmities of some sort. But then I've spoken to too many people that have these vivid experiences of demons and sort of possession. I don't know. sit there. I'm not sure I can totally deny that. But then you read, I think it's in Samuel or Chronicles where soul gets possessed by a wicked spirit that had been sent by God, you know, and David calms him by playing the harp to him. that, that sort of suggests to me that, evil spirits are real things and I'm not sure they were intended to be done away with entirely at 70 AD. I disagree with this idea that some of the, you know, what I call Satan worshipers have that these spirits are omnipresent and omnipotent and can just enter into people at will. I don't know. I think we all maybe have our ideas around demons and spirits uh a bit wrong. I think they're real, but maybe we need to realize. where they come from. too when he asked Peter or Peter said uh To Jesus about um when he said he was gonna be crucified and He had to rebuke Peter by calling it get behind me Satan like whoa You imagine how Peter felt like what do you mean? Bro? Like what do you call me Satan for like but it was something trying to stop um there he's, I mean, that makes sense in terms of the, you know, the word study of adversary, like get behind me, Peter, you're being an adversary to me and to the plans of the cross. I don't need you. What you're saying here is, it is against what needs to happen. You are being an adversary. I don't think it's like, I don't take this idea that Peter's all of sudden quickly possessed by a wicked horn bearing spirit that he's trying to stop. Jesus going to the cross. he said it? So, I mean, I try to look at as the broader perspective that is anything that's a hindrance for the gospel or the kingdom or anything that's going to, I mean, why, you know, the, do you say the gates of hell would never prevail against it? You know, like why, why, why language this way? I mean, I mean, these are deep, deep thoughts that I don't know if we'll ever, I mean, the Bible, we can get hints of it, but these are things that might be silent. um And now the possession part, when you said that, I got a thought of that and um to do away with, um I can't quote it at the moment. It might be John, but when he takes the pig, he casts him out of the man and into the pigs. um Their statement was to him was to argue to judge us before our appointed time. Hmm. That's something that comes to mind when you said that and and what what it I think about on stuff like is like they they knew There was an appointed time of judgment like they they knew it um And he didn't he didn't destroy him he didn't do anything like that wait I mean however you want to say it he destroyed the pigs at least I mean they we don't know if the the demons, you know directly was destroyed in that that instant, we got an appointed time. We got a timestamp right there. you know, there's a, so there's a whole theory on that. I'm not, I'm not sure on the pig story. think any explanation of it, there's totally different camps on it. Every explanation of it is maybe missing something, but, but there is, I've heard a really good explanation of what's going on in that story. And that it's again, just using pigs as sort of an analogy for unclean and unclean spirits, which makes sense. And that's like, why would you come to tormentors? for the time it says, which I always, know, particularly as a futurist was like, well, that's their time hasn't yet come. You know, these wicked spirits are given a period of time until they're going to be destroyed at the end of world history. But what, what that may have been talking about is at that time in Jerusalem, you had these basically lunatics who were sort of out on the street in these areas. These guys were and know, possessed by something, whether that was supernatural spirits or whether it was mental infirmities. And the men of Israel would go out at evening for dinner and part of their entertainment, they would go past these lunatics and sort of torment them on the streets to get a bit of a laugh out of them. And because Jesus was there walking with the apostles sort of during the daytime and he walked up to them, they're like, why are you coming to Tormentus now? Like it's not dinner time yet. It's not evening when you usually come and play games with us. it's, I'm not saying that's the answer of what's going on there, but uh it's an entirely different way of reading the text than what the sort of mainstream idea of it is. Which it- time being not so much as a destruction time, but just a reference. Yeah. when all the men of Israel walk to their usual time of dinner and come past us and stir us up and get a laugh out of us because we're like the clowns of the town. Why you doing this in the daytime? This is what happens at night. That's a good thought. I don't know. I mean, I honestly don't know what to do with that. um So, but it's hard to deal with. There's a lot of questions. I mean, I thought I got so many answers um shifting into full preterism. And I still have so many. It created a lot. It does. But I know that it's more consistent. um That's the big thing for me is it's just so much more consistent and, and bro, feel. I don't. I feel like in a lot of ways it's strengthened my faith. I don't feel like, you know, I've heard some people talk about, you know, the, they left full preterism. was dark, gloomy, this and I'm like, don't, I don't get that, bro. Like I don't, I don't, I think, and most of time it's just misrepresentation. And I, that's what I was seeked out to do is when I was first studying this topic with the Gary thing. You know, I'm asking questions and I'm like, dang, that is a good question, bro. Like, so what is your other response? And it's like, Oh, crickets or silence or write him off. Or I'm like, David, that's not, that's not how we do this. Like, and I would love to see, you know, we got guys like, um, Dr. Preston, if you know Don Preston, it's super good. Uh, it's super, super smart. and I've, I've heard all kinds of stuff about him, but I think, um, I would love to see a, cause I think it was, I don't hope I don't misrepresent him, but Wilson, Doug Wilson, I think he was talking about, um reference it. Well, it's not really a big thing yet. People shouldn't, you know, ah kind of worry about this. It's not like it's a big thing on the stage. Like, like bro, like you have no problem calling dispensationalists that call, I say it. Bro, and I said I was guilty of it as well, but I think when you call the Messiah, the prince and Antichrist and Daniel 9, that's a blast to me, bro. that's your like, and you have no problem with congregating with them, communion with them, all these sorts of things with all these people that do this stuff. You have no problem with that. But here we are. Most of us reform brothers. Most of us are very onto the same page, but 99 % of the stuff is like, okay, well, we don't agree with a physical resurrection or a judgment at the end of cosmos kind of thing. it's like, well now we're apostates. Like we're no longer your brothers. Like, like, bro, like let's get, I would love to see a big debate. I would love to see it. Um, get a lot of answers out there. you know, these guys like Wilson and Co, they know they can't win the debate and they have a pretty successful, know, but successful in terms of monetary and power and prestige ministry that is based around, you know, based around not losing a debate. I think they're protective of their brand, which sort of sickens me really. It's it would it sickens me as well the same um I just don't like being wrote off. mean, it's just kind of whatever, you know, and I most of my, and I love my brothers and my inter-reformed faith in my partial brothers. I'm not like, Hey, I'm a full preterist for the rest of you or apostate heretics. Absolutely not. Like I'm not that way, bro. Like I'm not, I just want to challenge each other, sharpen each other. And I'm still seeking a lot of answers. As I said a little while ago, I will gladly recant if you can show me that I'm wrong. But the more I read and the more I study, it's, I don't feel that way at all. But for them on that perspective, like I wish we would just all have a seat at the table, hash these things out, discuss them, and maybe we glorify God in the things that we do agree with wholeheartedly. I really do. um Amen to that. Well, Steve, it's been an awesome chat, man. We've been trying to sort of tee up this for ages. I'm, yeah, I know it's a... But, uh man, I'm very thankful that you've let me on here to conversate with you. Obviously, this is the time we've ever conversated vocally, other than just over X. It has been a privilege to discuss with you, um especially about everything. Everything we're trying to figure out. from deepest parts of my heart, man, I really appreciate you. keep doing what you're doing. and just thank you, bro. Honestly, just thank you. Appreciate that brother. uh I love the way you go about it. love there's, there's such a clear humility with you, ah both in the way that you talk about your own faith, the way that you see people outside of the faith and the way that you've, you know, been able to change positions on things and not judge people that don't agree with you. I love the way you go about it. And it's been, it's been a refreshing testimony. So thank you for giving it. I appreciate you brought me God have all the glory though Honestly, let him have all the glory, but thank you brother and until next time I will get with you man All right, you do the same or good day. I should say uh Good day for me. Hey, I'm just gonna hit stop. But just...