ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

Toxic Teams, Lonely Jobs, And How to Fix Them - Morag Barrett Ep 30

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 1 • Episode 30

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In this conversation, Morag Barrett discusses the importance of transforming workplace connections and the personal nature of business. She emphasizes that relationships drive success in business and explores how to navigate friction in workplace interactions. Morag introduces the concept of the ally mindset, which focuses on being a supportive colleague while holding others accountable. She also addresses the challenges of networking, especially in remote settings, and the impact of office politics on workplace dynamics. The conversation concludes with practical advice for building better relationships at work and the significance of addressing loneliness and disconnection among employees.


Takeaways

  • All business is personal, and success is powered by relationships.
  • Friction in relationships can create stress and anxiety.
  • We should ask ourselves why someone behaves a certain way instead of assuming the worst.
  • Being a friend at work means being proactive in building connections.
  • Networking should focus on depth rather than quantity.
  • The ally mindset promotes accountability while preserving relationships.
  • Remote work can foster deep connections if approached with intention.
  • Office politics can be navigated positively with a we-first mindset.
  • Managers can facilitate connections without forced fun activities.
  • Loneliness at work is a significant issue that needs addressing.

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Morag Barrett is on a mission to transform workplace connections. Morag has helped more than 15,000 leaders across 20 countries transform their workplace relationships from sources of stress into catalysts for success. She is the founder of Sky Team, a bestselling author and was handpicked from over 16,000 candidates to join Marshall Goldsmith's prestigious 100 Coaches group. When she's not transforming workplaces cultures on six continents, you might find her enjoying a proper cup of tea. She's British after all. Or sharing insights from her latest book, You, Me, We, Why We All Need a Friend at Work. Join us as we explore why 75 % of employees say interacting with their boss is the most stressful part of their day, and more importantly, what we can do about it. Hi Morag, welcome to ProductiviTree. Hey, Santiago, looking forward to our conversation. You say business is personal. What do you mean by that? Oh, well, that goes back to when I started my career um in finance in the UK. And I remember being told it's not personal, it's just business. And I have come to realise through the decades that my career has been in existence, that that is complete BS, that all business is personal. And in fact, I believe firmly that success in business is powered by relationships. and success in life is fuelled by connection. And both of those come back down to our ability to network and build connection, human connection, with others that can help us to realise our goals. That's so true. You've worked with thousands of leaders around the world. What's one thing they all have in common when it comes to relationships? that it is the friction that arises between people, between teams that creates the most stress, anxiety and frustration of all. So, yes, annoying when the systems go down, but when your colleagues who you think have your back seem to be going in a different direction, it can be, as I say, frustrating. The reality, though, and the thing that I've got in common is that those colleagues that may be causing you frustration today, for those of you who are listening or watching this conversation, my money is on the fact that very few of them, if any, got up this morning and thought, can I be a pain in the neck? Can I get in the way of Santiago's success? So that friction, if we can find a way to navigate it appropriately. reduce it, then we can all have a lot more fun at work and reach our goals together. Number one, why do we take it so personally? So personal and how can we use a little bit of friction? And I mean, the point that you just gave is excellent, right? I'm sure at Docs of Intentionality, I'm sure he's not trying to ruin my day or my career. But how can we do you have tools to go through this? do. So the first question you asked is why do we take it personally? And the reality is we can't help it. We are hardwired to react defensively. And think about it when we were all uh in an early stage of evolution, we've all heard of the fight or flight response. It's what kept us alive when we perceived danger, when our amygdala in our limbic system fired, we didn't wait to see if the rustle in the grass was a sabre-toothed tiger, we ran for the trees. And that worked for thousands of years. Now that system is still hardwired into us. And so now while we don't meet a sabre-toothed tiger at work, our amygdala doesn't know the difference. All it knows is you gave me a funny look. or you didn't reply to an email in a timely fashion, I immediately start to write a story. And let me give you a quick example. Santiago, let's assume you're working with a colleague who keeps interrupting you. What goes through your mind? What might you tell yourself about your colleague who keeps interrupting you? Just share. Why is she or he interrupting me so much? Okay, great. Why are they doing it? What else? Keep going. Um, what can I do so they stop interrupting me? Yeah, and what might you do? um I might tell them to stop interrupting. You might tell them to stop interrupting. What I hear from other leaders is you might start interrupting them back. You might start talking quicker and louder so that they can't get an edge in. And the stories that I hear from leaders when I ask that question is... Why are they interrupting? my goodness, they are so rude. They are arrogant. They think they're better than me. They think, or I obviously have nothing of value to add. I must be stupid. You know what? I'm going to keep quiet. And so I either shut down or I start interrupting back and it gets into a battle of wills. And here's why I asked that question and it answers, you know, um are what we do when this happens is we're hardwired to assume the worst because most of the stories we write are around they're rude, they're arrogant, they don't want to hear what you've got to say and yet the reality is, because I am a habitual uh interrupter which is why I asked that question in my workshops, it acts as a reminder because I don't do it to be seen as rude. and arrogant and because you don't have something to say, in fact quite the opposite, you've probably just said something amazing to me that I want to go deep with with the intent of coming back to what you were going to say later. But the aha for me is that doesn't matter if the impact is that it causes you to shut down for you to start thinking of me as rude and arrogant. That is what causes the divide. And so what can we do when friction occurs, when a colleague blindsides or surprises you with their words or actions, is to do what you did, which is to ask yourself a question. Why would a rational human being do this? Why would Morag interrupt me? What else might happen? Because when we ask a question, we're engaging the gray matter, our smarts. as opposed to reacting to the fight or flight response, which is what triggers when we perceive disrespect or a lack of response from our colleagues. Most people ask, do you have a friend at work? But your question is, are you a friend at work? Why does that small change matter so much? I'm glad you asked that, Santiago. So that is at the heart of my second book here, You, Me, We, Why We All Need a Friend at Work and How to Show Up as One. And Gallup has been researching employee engagement for more than 20 years, and they have 12 core questions that their research shows quite clearly. If employees can answer them, yes, you have a more engaged workforce, you have increased productivity. There is a win-win for everyone. And question 10 in that list is do I have a best friend at work? And Gallup shares that they get the most pushback on that question. This is a business that I don't have time to make friends. However, I've already shared success in business is about relationships. So whether you call them friends, colleagues, trusted allies, it really doesn't matter. But who's your go-to colleague? And The reason we chose to reframe it in our book is that do I have a best friend at work is passive. It allows me to sit back and say, well, no, because Santiago doesn't work in my office. No, because Santiago got the promotion I should have got. Whereas when we reframed it to am I a friend at work, now it is proactive. Am I showing up as a friend at work for me, not just a doormat? somebody who can articulate my goals, dreams, desires, the guardrails that mean I don't just turn into a yes person, but also am I showing up and curious about who you are, what your goals and dreams and aspirations are, and finding a way to work more respectfully together in support of your goals and my goals. Interesting. Let's speak a little bit about networking. Why does so many people think that networking is fake and they feel so uncomfortable? Oh, because a lot of people, I think, approach networking like capturing Pokemon cards. It's all about who can get the most business cards in a meeting. How many LinkedIn connections can you collect? But that is just the first step. If you are only in it for what can you get, then the relationship will only ever stay surface level. and it is likely to only ever turn transactional and at best a quid pro quo. You do something for me, I might do something for you. Networking at its best is about meeting strangers, but it is also about going deeper with those colleagues and connections you already have in your network. Because when we start to share more about who we are as individuals, more about our life journey as well as our career journey, we find more moments of connection and commonality, hidden talents that we can leverage so that ultimately we are better together. And that's the true power of networking. It's not the business card, it's the conversations and the relationship that follows that can be truly transformational. Let's talk about the other side of networking people that have difficulties for whatever reason to establish relationship and they are not even able to collect Pokemon cards because they're too shy to approach someone. Do you have any advice for them? Oh, I do. So a colleague of mine, Fine, wrote an excellent book called The Fine Art of Small Talk. And here's what I love about her book. She describes herself as a recovering engineer. And one of her jokes is, how do you tell the difference between an introverted and an extroverted engineer? And the difference is the extroverted engineer will look at your shoes, whereas an introverted engineer will look at their own shoes. So that's all about eye contact and it's a little stereotypical. But here's the secret, Santiago. I am an extrovert. I make my living delivering keynote presentations to thousands of leaders at a time, facilitating workshops to executive leaders around the world, as you've already shared. And yet walking into the ballroom with a room full of strangers at a conference absolutely terrifies me. But through using resources like Deborah Fine's Fine Art of Small Talk, getting out of my head and being truly present, what I try to do is channel what I call a hostess mindset. And what that means is my role there is less about the stress and angst I might feel about going up and starting a conversation with a leader or a group of leaders at a conference. It's how can I make that conference experience meaningful for you. And if you're the host of your party at home, you welcome people with a smile. You ask them, how was their journey? What are they most looking forward to learning? Who are they hoping to meet at this conference? Because maybe you can affect that introduction for them. And what I found was when I shifted the mindset from the internal monologue of why will anybody want to talk to me? I know nothing about American football. what on earth am I going to talk about to being curious about you and what's brought you here, it allowed me to start conversations that truly have transformed and sometimes turned into clients here at Sky Team. Hmm. All right. Some people are super smart, but really tough to work with. uh Can good relationships help them improve or are they always going to push people away? Is this some sort of like a persona, a mask they wear? So tell me more about what you mean about tough, tough leaders or tough people that might push people away. So the way I think about this is two ways, right? People that is avoiding any time of relationship because maybe they think that might weaken them somehow, or they need to help people in ways they might not want. And then there is other people that is simply more rough in the way they behave at work and these kind of things. Hmm, so I hear you. Yes. So I am going to make a plug. I'm make a plug for my first book that started it all and it's called Cultivate the Power of Winning Relationships. Because when I started my career in banking, what I noticed was that there were a lot of leaders who were very hierarchically and command and control focused and they were focused on the logic of business. What we do, the widget service product that we provide. and how we organise the systems, the technology, and then maybe the people that delivered it. But what I came to realise and why I shifted is that the truly successful companies, the one that lasted, the ones that made a profit, didn't just focus on what they did and how they organised. They also focused on who they are as individuals and how they relate, especially going back to our earlier conversation, when there are times of uncertainty, doubt and change where friction and conflict might arise. And so as a leader, I think the mistake we make is assuming that having a friend at work will make you soft. And in fact, what we have found is that you can set even higher standards. You can hold my feet to the fire and hold me accountable for delivering those results. But do it in a way that preserves the relationship that makes me want to be there, lean in to take informed risk as opposed to the hard-nosed leader that might cause me to filter my messages, to only tell you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. And as you know, that just risks that no bad news makes its way to those who need to be aware of it. So in fact, Best leaders are the ones that are very clear about the standards that need to be reached, but also flexible in how we get there and focus on the human connection so that the relationship is strengthened. What is the ally mindset and how is it different from just being nice? Oh, wow, layers, layers, layers. So the ally mindset I introduced initially in Cultivate because I talk about four relationship dynamics in here. The ally, who is your friend at work, the go-to colleague, the person who doesn't just give you the feedback you want to hear, which is nice, but give you the feedback you need to hear, which is kind. You then get supporters who are like fair weather friends. Yay, go Santiago until the proverbial hits the fan, in which point they go quiet. They're not going to take risk for you. And then there are rivals and adversaries where more of that friction that we've already talked about will start to appear. Well, Cultivate was hugely successful, but leaders then said, well, how do I show up as a friend at work? But without becoming a yes man or a yes woman, a doormat, how do I come up as a friend at work? and yet still hold people accountable. So we went back to the research, we interviewed thousands of leaders from around the world and identified what we call the Ally mindset. And everybody watching and listening to this conversation, you are welcome to take your free Ally mindset profile and you can do that at Skyteam SKYE team.cloud forward slash you me we. And there are five practices that our research show quite clearly result in a reputation of being a firm but fair, a go-to leader that others want to work with. And it starts with abundance and generosity. Do I even care about your success as much as I do my own? Am I willing to coach and mentor you to help you to be successful? If I'm looking out for you, Then we get to connection and compassion, which is, hey, tell me a story, Santiago. What were you doing before this company, this role? What do you love? What makes you thrive and flourish? What drains and frustrates you? What do you do for fun outside of work? And when we get that human connection, then you and I are more likely to demonstrate courage and vulnerability. Courage and vulnerability in taking informed risk. in feeling empowered and taking action that leads to candour and debate where I'm giving you the feedback you need to hear, where I'm willing to discuss and debate where we disagree on a course of action. And then practice number five, the capstone of them all is action and accountability. It's following through to deliver those results, but delivering them in a way that doesn't cause politics silos and turf wars, but in fact brings the whole organization into alignment so that we can be better together. So that is the power of an ally mindset. And when I've seen leaders make that shift, both their reputation is enhanced. They don't just lead better. It also ripples out into their whole lives. They actually live better. How can someone find out how others see them at work? How can you get the outsider perspective? Any advice, any trick? Well, first thing is think about three words. Think about yourself, Santiago. What would be three words that you would hope other people would use to describe you at work? mind. Mm-hmm. efficient uh Mm-hmm. and collaborative. Cooperative. OK, so kind, efficient, cooperative. So how can you find out? Here's the easiest thing is this afternoon, tomorrow, go and ask somebody, hey, when you think about me, what three words come to mind? Just that. And then start making your list and seeing where is there overlap and where is there a disconnect? And then the choice is yours. What is it that you need to do? How might you need to turn the dial up or down in how you show up every day? to close that gap if there is one. Let's talk a little bit about remote work. Many say you cannot connect on a remote set. um Yet, I've been in offices where there was less connection than it's only meeting you and I are having. Why? So it's interesting, before the pandemic, I might have agreed with that, that if you want to be a better human, if you want to build a relationship with other humans, you have to do it in a room with other humans. Well, the pandemic put stop to that, didn't it? And what I've learned over the last five plus years is that some of my newest and deepest, not just work colleagues, but friends in life, I have gained through the camera. And it was a mindset shift for me to do two things is to choose to lean in to this mode of communication. And what I've noticed is that when we get onto a Zoom call or a Teams meeting, whatever it is, we tend to firstly, if we're three seconds late, it's my goodness, I'm so sorry, I'm late. Whereas when we were in the three dimensional office, you would stop and you'd make a cup of coffee on the way. Somebody would ask you a question, you'd roll in three minutes late and nobody would bat an eyelid because those first three to four minutes were the transition passing time that was used for the fine art of small talk and for connecting. And so what can we do here when working remotely is A, believe it is possible. Make sure that we schedule time for us to connect at the beginning, middle or end of the meeting. And starting to have things like we did in the green room, you were asking about some of the displays that I have up here in my home office. It's starting to bring in like you've got the unicorn poster. You can see my books there. There are pictures of my family. All of this is an opportunity for you. I'm a big fan of Outlander and Jamie. Well, so now you've got things that you be able to connect with me about or ask me about that move from us just being here for 30 minutes in a business meeting. What are you doing? And connect more at a human level with how are you doing? Is it possible to succeed without playing office politics? God, I hope so. All through my career, every time I think about office politics, it leaves me clammy and cold. Now, it still happens and it will always happen. But there is office politics that is Machiavellian, where you need to pretend, where it is all about dog eat dog and win lose scenarios. And then there are office politics of just who do I need to call in order to get my printer fixed? Who do I need to call in order to make sure that this decision is as informed as possible? There's the informal leaders as well as the formal hierarchy. And that I think we can all play, but do it deliberately and thoughtfully. It's when it becomes knowledge is power. Information is hoarded. My network, my success, me first. When we can embrace the ally mindset and a we-first mindset or a we-together mindset, that's when politics shift from being something nefarious and dark and let's just face it, something that is just part of how we do business, but a way that ensures that everybody thrives. Let's give a little help for managers. How can managers help people connect, especially on online settings, without feeling forced fun activities? Oh, yeah. Well, we've all done those, the force fun activities, and I think we're all a little tired of the virtual happy hours, but it can be something as simple as grab something from your desk. And maybe there's time to talk about why is there a little unicorn on my desk and what does it say? It says, don't let anyone ever dull your sparkle. Maybe there's an opportunity for a quick pop quiz. Are you a mountains or beach? Are you a soda or water person? Are you... look what I have... dark chocolate or milk chocolate? There are ways to do it without it feeling too trite and too forced, but it is about giving people the choice as to how much they share. And that is the key, which is let's not go deep and talk about... childhood and trauma and some of the more sensitive topics. But we can certainly do more of and slightly deeper of the things that the world can see anyway that brings us closer together. Did you go to university? Did you not? Where did you go to school? In my case, my accent is always one that starts conversations, whether I'm here in America where I live now. or back in Europe, it's an opportunity to connect and be curious about the world journeys that people have taken. Morag like people leaving their jobs because of pay and conditions or because they feel alone and disconnected. Oh, OK, so we all have bills to pay, so let's be clear. We go to work because we need to pay our bills and we may choose to change roles because somebody offers us a few more pounds, a few more dollars, a few more whatever, which great. But what the research shows consistently is that people will leave an organisation because of the poor health of the relationships around them. So either a toxic relationship. or because they are feeling lonely and disconnected. And in fact, my latest keynote addresses loneliness, disconnection and disengagement because 20 % of the leaders who've completed our Ally Mindset profile say they have no friends at work. None. Can you imagine? So they do the fake perky for 30 minutes on here and then they hang up and they just go, I can't even. And that is what is most insidious about this and why as leaders and as individuals, we need to be leaning in more because it is the hidden tax that is undermining success every single day. And the more we can create and deepen our relationships at work, the lower the turnover and the greater the creativity, innovation and collaboration that we see. And when we have creativity, innovation and collaboration, we see the business results and productivity increase. What is one small thing someone can do today to build better relationships at work? So I'm going to give you two. Can I be an overachiever? I'll give you two. One is think about the colleague that you would jump at the chance to work with again or the colleague right now that you adore working with. So in fact, Santiago, who would that be for you? Who would you jump at the chance to work with again? I think I know. Go on and name them, name them. What makes them special? Tell me. people that is fun, creative, and I mean in general, and that can understand that we are not perfect and we all make mistakes, but that we are to have each other's back. That's the people I want to work with again. I love that because when I ask leaders this question, who's your best boss? And I talk about their characteristics. It's everything you've just listed, how they made me feel, the coaching, the feedback, the fun. It's rarely about how smart they were, technical or how strict they were in setting goals. So that's the first aha. So what can you do to strengthen relationships? Send a message to that best boss or best colleague that says, hey, I was listening to Santiago and Morag. They asked us to think about best boss. I thought of you and here's why. And I promise you're going to make their day and the replies you're going to get will strengthen that relationship. So that's the first one. And then the second one is what are the opportunities for you to make somebody else's day? Where can you help someone else to be successful? So one is a give, just the feedback, and the other is a give in terms of what's one thing you can do to help remove a block that will enable somebody else to move their goals forward. If you work in an already toxic workplace, is it worth trying to fix relationships or is better to run away? Yes, all of the above. So first of all, it's hard for one person to fix a whole organization, but you can fix one relationship, one conversation at a time. So maybe you and I can become those allies surrounded by the chaos. If I'm a boss, maybe we in my team can become a team of allies amongst all of the chaos. So first off, what's within your control? One conversation, one relationship at a time. But at some point, you have to make the decision that you have done enough and the right thing to protect you is to go find another team elsewhere in the organisation or at another company where you can thrive, where those toxic behaviours aren't impacting you. So there you go, that would be my answer. if you are in that environment, call me. and I'll help coach navigate through it with you. You're not alone. Let's do some rapid fire questions. 30 seconds or less. Number one, what is the worst way to start a networking chat? Can you do this for me? uh Number two, should you focus on having lots of LinkedIn contacts, quantity or a few real connections, quality? Quality over quantity every time. Quality over quantity. Is it better to grab coffee in person or send a good message online? both. I'm just going to hedge my bets because if you can't have coffee in person then send the message online. There you go. how can you tell if someone is a great leader by how they treat people? Do they smile? they make you feel safe, cared for, trusted, valued? Then they are a good leader. And number five, should you be vulnerable when networking right away or is that a bit risky? depends on what you're sharing. So you can be vulnerable in that you're nervous to be there, maybe you can be vulnerable in asking questions, but I wouldn't go all the way down on the first date. No. Thank you, Marek. um Tell us, what is one rule you try to follow or always follow when you're building relationships? that the world of work, in fact, the world of work, the world of life is a team sport. It's best done in service of and with others. so relationships, as I said, the few, it powers success in business, but it is connection that fuels life. This matters. Where should people go if they want to learn more about you, how to be better at work, connect with you, read you, go to one of your fantastic keynotes? yes, fantastic keynotes for sure. You'll get energy, fun and engagement. Either of my two books, please go check them out. You can find me on LinkedIn. It is me that responds to all comments and all messages. So send a message that says you were listening to Santiago and I, and I will accept your invite to connect and we will be on our first date and starting to build our relationship. And please come find me at Skyteam SKYE. team.com where you can learn about me and my friends at work, Eric Spencer and Ruby Vesely. Morak, I want to thank you for these 35 minutes of your energy, your wisdom, and I'm taking away the ally mindset and the intentionality of things. And in most cases, people is probably not trying to destroy your career or your day. They just don't know what kind of day you have or What are you trying to achieve? And they are using a different energy that is not connecting with you today. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you, Mara. My pleasure.