S3 E24: All About Grading

Dr. Lisa Gring-Pemble, Dr. Aimee Weinstein, Maoria Kirker, and Doug McKenna join your host, Dr. Rachel Yoho, to discuss alternative grading strategies such as ungrading.

Resource: Stearns Center Events Calendar (registrations for Mason affiliates only):  https://stearnscenter.gmu.edu/events/ 

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Rachel 0:08

Hello and welcome to the Keystone Concepts and Teaching podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Yoho, and we're excited to bring you this episode. We're going to be talking about alternative grading, and maybe you've heard the keywords like ungrading before, so I hope you stick with us and check out some of the neat things we can consider when we're thinking about how we can be creative and innovative with our grading. So I'm joined by four guests in this episode, and so I'll let them introduce themselves.

Aimee 0:38

Hi Rachel. Thrilled to be here. My name is Aimee Weinstein and I am an instructional Associate Professor with the Honors College.

Doug 0:45

Hi, I'm Doug McKenna. I am a doctoral candidate in the Higher Ed program and also the University Registrar here at Mason.

Lisa 0:54

Hi, I am Lisa Gring-Pemble and I am an Associate Professor with the Costello College of Business, and I teach in the Honors College and in the Communication department.

Maoria 1:04

My name is Maoria Kirker. I am the Teaching and Learning Team Lead in the University Libraries, and I also adjunct within the Honors College.

Rachel 1:13

All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us, and so let's get started today. You know, we hear a lot of keywords or buzzwords around grading, so let's talk about what is it that we're actually talking about. So can one of you start us off with just a brief introduction to alternative grading?

Doug 1:32

Great. I'd be happy to. Thanks Rachel. There are a variety of approaches for alternative grading, and they're all generally intended to shift the students' focus from their grade and back onto the learning. And there are a variety of approaches. Like we said, there's ungrading, there's contract grading, there's labor based grading, there's any of an assortment of approaches that, again, shifts the student's focus away from like the grade itself and back into engagement with the subject matter, the learning itself.

Rachel 2:11

Yeah, that sounds great. So when we're thinking about this, you know, shifting a student's focus from their grade to the learning, is a big task and kind of sounds like a big task. I mean, we have, you know, students emailing over like one point half a point, five points, whatever a small unit in your particular course would be. So can you tell us how do we do this? What does this mean for us as the instructor?

Aimee 2:37

I found that when I tried it, recently, that it took a little bit more work upfront for me as the instructor, but ultimately, it just provided more engagement with my students about the learning and the goals of the course. Of course, they were a bit nervous upfront until we had a lot of discussion about what that means.

Rachel 3:02

And so what did you try, Aimee, with your course?

Aimee 3:06

I tried ungrading. And I was very lucky that in my particular class, 75% of the grade was for showing up for some mentoring sessions. So it made a lot of sense to try to really hard to pull the focus off of the grade and really get the students engaged with their mentees. And so it helped a lot. We did have conferencing in the middle of the semester to make sure students knew where they stood and some conferencing at the end as well. And I learned a lot about this from both Maoria and Lisa.

Lisa 3:44

Well, I learned a lot about it from Maoria, but I just wanted to also add that for me, I prefer ungrading as well, and I think that it works especially well in Humanities courses, and it works especially well for me in the Honors College. And I got to it because, Rachel, to your point, I started getting a lot of questions from students about how much is, you know, why did I get one point off? Or why did I get this 0.5 off? And when you have like five points, right? What's a 4.7? What's a 4.6? And how do you tell a student what that means? And then they start asking questions about, what form of citation should I use? How long does this have to be? How many sources do I have to have? And it becomes such a focus on the mechanics and the logistics of turning in a paper or essay, which we do a lot of in my courses. And once you take the pressure off of the grade and you shift the focus, I mean, we still have to give them a grade, right? But once you take the immediate pressure off, all of a sudden they start to ask questions like, well, if I wanted to go more deeply into this topic, where would I go? Right? Or, you know, I'm a little unsure about this topic and whether it's the right one for me, but I wanna give it a try, right? So they're willing to take risks and they're willing to investigate deeper, and they're willing to risk, not failure, I should say, but not finding out what they wanted to find out and not writing a rote essay because now they're focused on what am I learning and what do I wanna learn about and why is that important to me? So that was my switch.

Maoria 5:30

Yeah, and I'll add too, that the way I came to the alternative grading and ungrading, as an adjunct in particular, the point negotiation was not only happening with the students, but it was happening internally as the grader. Like, oh, is this a one point, a two point half point deduction? And I found no useful value in that in either a grading process or in student learning. And so I started thinking and reading about alternatives. And everything I read was very much like how do we emphasize feedback for actual student improvement and student learning? And that led me to alternative and ungrading. So like, I think you can get to this pretty easily from either like a instructor point of view or a student point of view. And I think they're both really valid in different ways. And they work together really well too. But going off of Aimee's point too about having conversations, it is a trust building exercise with you and your students, right? And so you have to put in work at the start of the course to build that trust to make it work.

Doug 6:34

Yeah, and I just would like to say that this is borne out my research is on the student experience of ungrading and so this is borne out in interviews that I've conducted where students say, you know, I definitely feel like I had a lot of autonomy. I could pick something and I could explore it. And that's something that was unique to ungrading. It wasn't like I had to pick from a list and then hit a benchmark to achieve a particular grade, or that I feel like I had the freedom to choose what I like, what I find more interesting to do research about. And so separating those two things of the assessment and that meticulous 0.1, 0.2 differences in the grading rubric, and allowing students to be more autonomous, to be more engaged, to have more control over what it is they're doing, makes a difference for students.

Rachel 7:29

I think that's a great point, and here we're really looking at in everything that we talk about in this podcast and from teaching and learning center perspectives not every single thing works in every single course. There's different modalities, different size courses. So when we're talking about this, you know, ungrading is one specific thing, but alternative grading is sort of that umbrella term. There's a lot of different opportunities there. And overall, I think what I'm hearing from you all is that, you know, some of our motivation, some of our benefits, hopefully improved engagement, student experience, but instructor experience too. So moving from that, can I define the minimum? What is the bare minimum for the students to do for the grading? All of that. Into, hopefully, returning to a little bit more of the process of learning. How were the students involved in that process? So I guess here, especially with the, you know, if we start to move into some of the challenges, some of the limitations as well, obviously different disciplines or different courses or modalities. So can you all expand a little bit on how maybe you've overcome some of the challenges or what you've identified as challenges for some of your teaching?

Maoria 8:38

So I've used a form of ungrading, with no points throughout the semester, just complete versus incomplete for one class. But there's a different class I teach within the Honors College, which like that it just wouldn't have been productive I don't think, for students. And so I use contract grading. And they're first year students, first semester students too. And I was actually even nervous that it was going to work out. It would be overwhelming or confusing. But they got on board really quickly and I think it was the right rating for that class, which has a very scaffolded step-by-step process oriented curriculum. Whereas if I had gone complete or no incomplete for that class, I don't think it would've helped learning, I think it would've actually been worse. And so I think you have to be intentional of does this match the course and the expectations for the learning.

Lisa 9:29

I was gonna say one of the challenges that I think, Aimee alluded to in her first comment and that Maoria talked about with trust, is this idea that you have to spend a lot of time upfront talking about ungrading. And so the first readings I do are on ungrading as a process and having students talk amongst themselves and with me about what worries them about ungrading, because particularly with Honors College students, they are so focused on I need to get a grade of A and now you've taken away my ability to know where that A is, right? And so that makes them really nervous. And so I think what I try to do is have those conversations, not just upfront, but throughout the semester. I try to check in with them every couple of weeks. How is the feedback? Is it helpful? This feedback that I'm giving to you, what do you need to hear more of? How are you feeling about ungrading? And then I tell them all, I'm hoping that you'll give this a try. But if you find that this is not working for you and it's causing undue stress, which I'm actually trying to take away through this process, but if this process is causing you stress, come find me and we can go back to grades for you individually. Now I've not had a student take me up on that yet, so I don't know what that looks like. But I think that frequent checking in and that frequent reassurance and then I think the benefits of them looking at the comments that they get. So now they're not looking like, what grade did I get? And they, you know, shuffled through the papers. Oh, I don't have a grade, but now I have a whole list of comments. They can look at those comments and take those to heart. And I think that's really beneficial.

Rachel 11:24

I think that's a great point. So let's dig into something Lisa said just a little bit more about sort of that idea of grades being, it almost sounded to me like, subjective. So sometimes, especially with more traditional types of grading, some of the feedback, maybe it's a written assignment or something like that, it's not a math problem, it's not something with the answer is 7.5, something like that. There can be that student pushback on, well, that's just your opinion, or that's what you think but this is all subjective in how something was assessed. So let's talk a little bit more in how do we not go down that pathway with these different types or some of these different types of alternative grading, because I can see directions where that could be a direction of student pushback. So what have your experiences been? How might you address that?

Aimee 12:15

I think addressing the student's expectations upfront is super important. Good rubrics for assignments and the expectation of feedback and what it means. So not just feedback, but helping the student understand when you hand me an assignment, this is the type of thing that you're gonna get back. You're going to get back feedback on not only the way you wrote it, but the way you put information together, and anything else that you want the student to learn how to do. So that's where being very clear about expectations comes into play, and it is important, as you mentioned.

Doug 12:55

The other thing about subjectivity and what alternative grading approaches or alternative forms of assessment enable is that students will read the feedback and they are able to receive the feedback in a different way when there is not a grade on it. And so they can engage in that dialogue of, okay, this is what I wrote. This is the feedback that I've gotten about it. They're more open to, what do you mean by that? Why did you think that way? And are willing to ask those follow up questions and have that engaged learning about what they've written when there's not a grade on the paper or on the assignment or however, whatever form that submission was done in. And that's borne out in the literature, shows that repeatedly. There's a famous example of that. I'll dig up the site. But even just in my own research with the interviews that I've done with students, they have said that not having a grade on the thing, I've actually read the feedback, like it has made a difference. And I think that that's a really important part of this where lisa was talking about like we're trying to reduce the stress level using alternative forms of assessment because there is a high level of stress with our students around the grades that they are receiving. And so if we can give them meaningful feedback that they use, that they look forward to by the end of the semester, it might be a shock to them that there's like actual written feedback that they can engage with and grapple with and question about, you know, well, what was that about? That helps, that pushes everything forward.

Maoria 14:46

I couldn't agree more with what Doug just said. And I see it play out particularly in that first year class that I've taught, like switching to contract grading over traditional grading, i've never had so many students actually apply the feedback before. And, you know, it could be that group of students, I'm willing to admit that, but like when you see so many students do it, and that didn't really happen before it raises some hypotheses. Um, but the one thing I'll say about subjectivity is what I love about alternative grading is it's actually admitting that grading is subjective to the students, right? They think it's subjective. We're saying, yes, we agree, which is why we're going to come up with different ways to do this, to promote to the learning and not the grading. And so I think it's an interesting meeting students where they are moment, an acknowledgement that the system is imperfect and we're gonna not probably have the perfect solution, but we're gonna try to get to a more meaningful outcome together.

Doug 15:44

That's just like your opinion, man.

Rachel 15:47

Yeah, that, that, that one, that's the feedback right there. Half a point. And you know, that's your opinion.

Doug 15:52

Yeah.

Lisa 15:53

But I think actually ungrading is less subjective, and the reason it's less subjective is because now it's not just the instructor's subjectivity that's providing the grade, it's I'm in dialogue with you, right? I'm having conversations with you. You are evaluating your work. I'm evaluating your work, we're coming together, and now I'm seeing things that I wouldn't normally in a course where I was just giving grades, I wouldn't see it because I'm having conversations with students about how have you grown? Give me examples of how you believe that you have achieved these learning objectives over the course of the semester. And so instead of a single, here's my grade, that's completely based on what I see and what you've produced on paper or in class, now I have your whole worldview as you express it to me, plus what I see, and that to me makes it a less arbitrary, if you will, form of grading.

Aimee 16:59

I actually asked my students to write something at the end of the semester, and I give them very specific things to answer, a reflective assignment to say, this is what I learned. This is how I learned it. This is the way I will use this in the future. And I invite them to say, based on all that, I think I deserve a a in the class. And so, most of the time I've agreed with the student on their assessment of their own learning, and I, we all know that reflection kind of cements the learning anyway.

Lisa 17:34

I do those same reflections. I know Maoria does as well. And that's what I mean, like the students are actively participating in their own assessment. And so even the first assignment, I have them use the assignment and then evaluate it and give themselves feedback. And I have them do it in pairs, so they have to have a dialogue about it. And then I have my feedback ready to go. And then we talk about sort of norm that, if you will, or just what are the students keying in on, what am I keying in on? And I think it's a really eye-opening experience for all of us about what we're learning. And I do think that as we're talking about this, the question that you had sort of originally asked in terms of like how do you overcome some of the challenges, and one of them is you have to let go of control. Like you just have got to let go of completely controlling the classroom experience and let go of the grades and let go of the things that I think we're taught as instructors and to use to help kind of grade students. You have to let go of that a little bit and, actually a lot of it, and you have to let the students teach you. You have to be willing to open yourself up to what's working and what do they think is working and how you're going to respond to their learning and their learning needs in the classroom. And so, ungrading, in the same way that it's not for every student, it really isn't for every class, and it's not for every instructor.

Doug 19:10

But I will say there's a lot of conversation about alternative forms of assessment and ungrading in response to the rise of artificial intelligence. And there was just an article recently that the provocative title was The Revolution Will Not Be Graded. And so in response to students just churning out AI generated essays, when you stop and you say, what did you learn? How did you engage with the process of learning? How did you come up with the points that you were making? And when there's not a grade associated with what it is that gives students the freedom to not do that, to not use AI as a way around doing an assignment that they don't want to do, particularly when they know that they can do the assignment that they wanna do, and that they will get something out of it. So I think that's a ungrading and alternative forms of assessment overall, I think are something that we really need to dig into in response to a flood of AI generated submissions.

Rachel 20:22

Absolutely. So we see a lot of benefits here. I mean, we don't wanna waste our time reading AI nonsense or some version of AI generated something or other, but we also want to feel like our feedback is meaningful. And we don't wanna be giving a bunch of stressed out students reason to be more hostile. You know, we don't wanna be getting those angry emails. And I mean, it's part of our real worlds too. So as we're thinking about this, we see lots of benefits, but we're also talking about lots of challenges. It's hard, it's labor intensive. It's a shift, it's a mindset shift for us and the students. And so as we're thinking about this, again, large umbrella term, and so certainly not the same thing for every class, every modality, but as we're thinking about something within the alternative assessment sort of sphere, if you will, what would you say to faculty who have heard some of these terms and are quite skeptical, or, this is not at all for me, I would never be able to do this, this doesn't work in my field? you know, anything along those lines.

Lisa 21:27

I can say what Maoria told me when I came to her and I was interested in doing it. And she said, start slow. Right? And that's in fact what I had instinctively done. I didn't just say, you know, voila, I'm going to do ungrading now for this course. I tried it out with a few assignments and I paid attention to how that felt for me, how I thought it was feeling for students, and I asked students for feedback on that. I'd also say that perhaps it's not for you. Perhaps depending on the type of course that you're teaching or the number of students that you have, I couldn't do this in a classroom that was a large classroom in the same way that I can do it in an Honors College class, which typically doesn't have more than 25 students in it because I meet with them one-on-one two times throughout the semester. And that takes time. And it takes time to write the kinds of feedback that I know that we all do. But I think starting slowly and try it out with one assignment and see how it goes, and see if it's something that you wanna pursue. The other thing is that Maoria has been, she's like the godmother to all of us, like starting on this journey, and find a Maoria. Find find. Find your Maoria. If you can't get ahold of Maoria, get ahold of one of us. But no, find your Maoria and find the person who's going to be there when you have a student question or something happens. Gosh, what, I don't know how to process this. I find somebody that you can talk to about it, is what I would do. I would take advantage of the resources that are out there. Both, like Doug's research that he does, like Doug's a font of information about everything alternative grading. Find those people to talk to and just try it out and see how it goes.

Doug 23:20

I would say that the research bears that out too, Lisa, where there are so many different ways to incorporate some form of alternative assessment into your class. Do not think of this as an all or nothing kind of a thing. You do not need to switch a hundred percent of your assignments in 100% of your classes to see the benefits for your students of alternative forms of assessment. I think two, starting out with the idea that we acknowledge that grades and grading are subjective and problematic. I think that's a place to start even just opening a conversation with your students about what does it mean to be graded and what do these grades mean, and then moving into how can I change the approach to my class? Whether or not grades continue to be in the day to day. Obviously as the registrar, I still collect all the grades at the end of the semester. Sorry. Um, I, and I, and that's the thing, like I struggle with that because grades and grading are deeply ingrained in higher education. I don't think that we're gonna get to a place in the near future where grades are not reported. But what I would love to see is mitigation of some of the damage that bad grading practices do to students and to the way that they engage with their learning.

Maoria 24:44

Yeah. I think for me, when I think about what is good teaching? What is the best teaching? And this is a subjective thought as well, although there is some research behind it as well. Um like good teaching happens in community, not necessarily in the classroom, but outside of the classroom. And so if you're skeptical, talk to people, build that community of people who are also willing to try it because good teaching is also taking risks. We ask our students to take risks all the time. And so we should be doing the same. And then also I think the best teaching comes from a really authentic place of the teacher. And so, like Lisa said, this might just not be who you authentically are as a teacher, and that's going to read through to the students. And so I think you should really think about it. Does this fit with my teaching style? Does this fit with who I want to be as a teacher to my students? And that might help you determine if it's even something to try.

Aimee 25:46

It's all about learning and growing, isn't it, with each other as colleagues and with the students, and as well as for the students because I've always found that my best teaching comes when I'm talking with the students about how they're learning.

Rachel 26:04

I think that's a really great point, Aimee, and I think that's really sort of our keystone concept for today, is really looking at learning and growing. What that looks like for us as an instructor, trying out little things. You know, just like we talked about many, many times through the podcast episodes, you know, trying something small. We're not saying like, throw out the whole syllabus and start over. But also what it looks like for students to actually learn and grow. You know, actually learn something, actually grow from week one until the end of the semester, you know, in this topic, in this area, in this field, instead of just trying to hit those bare minimums or what's the baseline to get me 930 points out of a thousand or something like that. We're also looking at how we might be able to learn and grow. For our students and with our students. So with that, any concluding thoughts or small changes, approaches, or recommendations for today?

Doug 26:55

There are a lot of resources available. If you are interested in exploring this, Stearns Center obviously is a great one, but look for your communities and reach out to colleagues who are doing this. There's not a wrong way to go about doing it. And so however you feel like you can incorporate any of these alternative assessment practices into your teaching, be brave, be bold, be all together, different.

Rachel 27:23

So good. Thanks Doug. So with that, I think that's a good place for us to stop for today. So thank you so much for your time. We have a lot of good ideas, but that's really the community piece. That's really what we're looking at as far as try something new, something different. And so thank you again. It was a great group, large group, and I'm very excited. Thank you so much for your time.

Lisa 27:47

Thank you so much.

Aimee 27:48

Thanks so much, Rachel!

Maoria 27:50

Thank you.

Doug 27:50

Thanks, Rachel!

Rachel 27:52

Please join us every two weeks during the fall and spring semesters for our next episodes. Thank you.