From Theory to Practice: Why Hands-On Learning Matters in Engineering

Step into the world of innovation, mentorship, and hands-on learning in Episode 3 of the "All of Life" podcast. This episode highlights Oklahoma Baptist University’s bold leap into engineering education with special guests Dr. Chuck Baukal, Director of Engineering at OBU, and Thomas Hill III, CEO of Kimray. Together, they share compelling stories about their journeys into engineering, the mentors who shaped them, and the transformative power of practical, real-world learning.

Dr. Baukal reflects on his 40-year career in industrial combustion and his vision for an engineering education model that prioritizes hands-on experience and industry readiness. Thomas Hill offers powerful insights on leadership, community, and the lessons learned from navigating the oil and gas industry. Both guests stress the importance of mentorship, technical rigor, and fostering humility within the next generation of engineers.

Listeners will get a behind-the-scenes look at OBU’s innovative engineering programs, including how the university is creating a learning environment that balances technical expertise with ethical decision-making, leadership, and faith-driven community values. You’ll also hear about the exciting transformation of Thurmond Hall into a state-of-the-art engineering facility, complete with cutting-edge labs, collaborative workspaces, and inspiring design elements.

This episode is a must-listen for students, parents, and professionals curious about the future of engineering education and the role faith-based universities can play in shaping future leaders. Discover how OBU’s engineering students are being prepared to think critically, solve real-world problems, and integrate faith into their work—becoming bold, innovative, and compassionate engineers who are ready to shape the future.

Join host Niccole Hall for this rich and thought-provoking conversation about how OBU is shaping the future of engineering education—one student, one project, and one visionary leader at a time.

Listen now to be inspired, challenged, and equipped for what’s next. All of Life, All for Jesus.

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Transcript

Niccole Hall: Hello, welcome to Bison Hill. Today we will be talking about how Oklahoma Baptist University is shaping the future through our engineering program and also our partnerships in industry. We are so excited to have with us Dr. Chuck Baukal and Thomas Hill. Dr. Baukal is the Director of Engineering at Oklahoma Baptist University. He retired early 40 years specializing in industrial combustion, heat transfer and air pollution emissions. He also taught as an adjunct instructor for nearly 40 years. He has a PhD in mechanical engineering from the University of Pennsylvania, a doctorate in applied educational studies from Oklahoma State University and a professional engineering license. He has authored and or edited 17 books, 14 on industrial combustion and three on engineering education. He has authored over 300 publications and presentations. Is an inventor on 11 U. S. patents and serves on many advisory boards. Welcome, Dr. Baukal.

Thomas Hill serves as Chief Executive Officer of Kimray, a leading manufacturer of valves and controls for oil and gas production. Kimray began in 1948 and employs over 600 people at its production facility in Oklahoma City and service centers throughout the United States. Thomas currently chairs the board of Hope is Alive. He's very active in leadership programs all over the country. Thomas and his wife Rebecca both received their degrees from Oklahoma State University.

Niccole Hall: They've been married more than 35 years and have six children. Welcome to our All of Life podcast.

Thomas Hill III: Thank you.

Niccole Hall: I would love to start off just with helping our listeners get to know you all a little bit better personally. Um, so Dr. Baukal, you can, you can get us going with this question. What inspired you to pursue a career in engineering? Did you always know you wanted to be an engineer? What inspired you?

Dr. Chuck Baukal: I did know from a pretty early age. I had an uncle that was an engineer. I was good in math and science. I loved to build things. I loved to play with Legos. I loved to design things. So it seemed like a natural fit for me. 

Niccole Hall: Awesome. And, um, Thomas, what drew you into the engineering and manufacturing field?

Thomas Hill III: Well, I, if you had asked me when I was in kindergarten, what I wanted to do, I would have told you, I wanted to be an engineer and I wanted to run Kimray because of my grandfather and my father, both of whom are engineers. And so I always wanted to be an engineer and always wanted to do what I'm doing. So I guess I'm, I kind of have the Cinderella story. I got to be exactly what I wanted to be. 

Niccole Hall: That's so awesome. Um, would you say that there were some key mentors in both of your journeys or moments that just kind of kept you going on that path? 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: For me, an important mentor was somebody that I worked for when I was in college. I worked part time for an engineering firm, uh, Tom Smith. It was a small company, only about 25 employees. He was an inventor that invented the main product and he was a great mentor for me. 

Thomas Hill III: Yeah, I'd have to say my grandfather and then of course, my father, I spent a lot of time with him in his shop and he was an inventor and 44 patents to his name. And I watched him work on a lot of products. And I think watching his process and that's something I think we'll probably talk about more today. One of the reasons I think engineering education is so important is it's a different way of thinking about how you solve problems. And so I was learning that long before I even knew the math behind it or anything else. And I think that had a huge influence on me wanting to be that. 

Niccole Hall: That's great. Um, do you believe that your perspectives on engineering have changed over the years? I mean, obviously they changed since you were young, but just do you believe that your perspectives on engineering have kind of changed over the course of the years?

Thomas Hill III: Oh my goodness. Well my perspective on everything has changed over the course of the years. I think that's, I think we call that maturity. I hope a little bit. 

Niccole Hall: It's probably true. 

Thomas Hill III: I'm getting a little up there to, you know, I hope I'm maturing a little bit. I think probably I'm less, um, naive about how the world works than I was when I was young and have learned that, um, and in spite of us as engineers, by the way, do you know how to know if there's an engineer in the room? 

Niccole Hall: No, is this a joke?

Thomas Hill III: Don't worry, they'll tell you. We tend to think, engineers, we tend to think that we're right. We tend to think that our solutions are correct and in a very tactical, physical, you know, way that's often true. If we're talking about designing a bridge or designing something, uh, we're probably right and we get paid to be right and people get hurt if we're not. And we spent a lot of time and attention on that. Unfortunately, I think that often translates into, we think we're right about a lot of things. And in the real world, I'm, I'm not sure that there's just this, everything isn't just black and white. There are a lot of different opinions and a lot of different experiences. It took me a long time to learn that other people's experiences and other people's values could be beneficial to me if I was open to listening. I don't know that it was a very good listener when I was a young engineer. 

Niccole Hall: That's great. Dr. Baukal? 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: I think I’ll piggyback on that and say that I'm very optimistic that engineers can fix lots of problems. As an example, the industry that I was in, we worked on reducing pollution emissions. And over the course of the 40 years I was in industry, and obviously lots of people working on this, we reduced pollution emissions by 90%. To the point that the air I'm breathing today is cleaner than when I was a kid.

Dr. Chuck Baukal: That's a fact. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has been collecting this data since 1970 for every major city in the United States.

Niccole Hall: Wow. Wow.

Dr. Chuck Baukal: So, when I hear, for example, governments like the UK say that they're gonna ban new industrial, uh, internal combustion engines by the year 2030, in my opinion, that's stupid. Let engineers fix it. Tell them what the limit is and then let them figure out how to do it instead of putting constraints on them. So one of the things I've learned is that not everybody understands the technology. Sometimes you'll hear people on the news talk about stuff and it's just wrong, you know, and I want to yell out to them “Hey, that's not correct!” And I try to tell my students all the time listen and educate your friends and colleagues and family because they're not always technically trained and we have people making decisions you know, many of the politicians are lawyers. They're not technically trained and they're making bad decisions because they don't have the knowledge whereas engineers do so I hope we're not arrogant to that point, but we do have something we have to offer…

Thomas Hill III: Absolutely.

Dr. Chuck Baukal: …and I just think we don't always take advantage of that. 

Niccole Hall: So listen and learn and explore, …

Thomas Hill III: Absolutely.

Niccole Hall: …which is what you guys are great at.

Thomas Hill III: I yell at the TV too and my wife tells me they can't hear me, so. 

Niccole Hall: Okay, I would love to have a memorable or funny story from each of you from early engineering days. I don't know if it's blowing up something, I know you guys both said you're both pyromaniacs. 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: My memorable story is, I was a young engineer and I was working for a big Fortune 200 company and I was designing a certain kind of equipment that was used in metal heat treating. And we had a customer that called and said, Hey, can you come look at our installation? We're not sure we did it right. So I went there, went by myself. I think it was the first time I went by myself on a field trip. And this equipment blends hydrogen and nitrogen. And what you may know about hydrogen is it's really explosive. It burns really easily. It leaks really easily. So I went there and I, the first thing I noticed was they mounted the safety equipment on the wall, but they never connected it. And they had open flames all over the place. And so I'm making notes and I'll never forget this. As I was driving away from the plant, I started shaking in the car because I realized they could have blown me and everybody in that plant to kingdom come. Not because they were doing it on purpose. It was mostly out of ignorance. And so, yeah, that left an indelible impression on me that you can't assume that the customer is doing things right. And that's something I learned very early to the point that now when I go visit a customer, I'm looking for what did they screw up. Not on purpose, it's almost never on purpose, but it's just because they don't know how to do it. And so they need folks like engineers to tell them, hey, that's not how that's supposed to be used or hooked up. This is how it's supposed to be done. 

Thomas Hill III: Wow, that's an interesting story. 

Niccole Hall: Interesting.

Thomas Hill III: I've spent quite a bit of time in, in the oil and gas industry. That's the, our products are used in the production of oil and gas. And early in my engineering experience, after I got out of college, I did spend a lot of time in the field. And I would say I had a lot of similar experiences where people were doing things out of ignorance that were actually very, very dangerous. And, uh, the world is not a safe place. The world is a dangerous place. And engineers are trying to make it a safer place most of the time. And it's really frustrating, uh, when people are, are just not paying attention to what they're doing or don't understand what they're doing. I actually had a guy once, we were trying to figure out how a particular system was working. This is all two inch line. probably running about 500 PSI of natural gas, which is also very explosive. And, uh, he goes, Oh, we figure out which way the gas and he breaks this pipe fitting open in a, in a flowing system. And I'm, I'm like, I'm going, I'm running the other direction while this is happening. Um, but you know, we talk about, um, you know, the, the things that interest us. I, I think for myself as an engineer, I've always been interested in how things work and why they work well. and why they don't work. And I started learning those things very early. I was, uh, either not supervised or trusted and I think it was probably the first and, and did a lot of things, uh, with explosives and with tools and with equipment and, uh, and learned that if you're not careful and if you don't do the right thing, you can cause a lot of problems, so.

Niccole Hall: Someone's going to have to either come to one of your leadership seminars or read your book to hear about this rocket story.

Thomas Hill III: I almost blew up a guy's house with a model rocket. 

Niccole Hall: It’s a great story. Um, okay. We're going to transition more into Engineering. We are so excited that we have students on campus already in this program. Um, actually a couple of programs and, um, I'd love for our listeners to hear more about initiatives that drove the university to launch these programs. So Dr. Baukal, you might be able to speak towards that. So 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: So we started the program from primarily for two reasons. One, these were the most requested degrees that we didn't already have and two, really strong demand from employers. We had lots of employers tell us we need more engineers, what can you do to help us? The fact that it's faith based also contributed to that. But we found documents going back to at least 2012 where somebody at OBU had done a study saying we should add engineering. And it took us another, you know, 11 years before we finally started that.

So, very exciting. Really, the reason why I'm here is I've been frustrated for a long time by how we do undergraduate engineering education in the United States. I don't think it's the right way, and lots of other people agree with me, or I should say I agree with them. Because it's way too theoretical and not very practical.

The vast majority of engineering professors have never been engineers. The National Academy of Engineering Published a famous report, uh, called the engineer of 2020. And they identified that, which is where we have people teaching students how to be engineers and they have never been one themselves. I read an article by one of the engineering societies that made, when I first read it, I thought that's a shocking statement.

They said that engineering is the only professional degree where that's the case. If you look at doctors, lawyers, nurses, accountants, pharmacists, dentists, PA's. They're all taught by people that have done it. And in many cases, those professors are still doing it, right? If you're a professor at a medical school, you're still a practicing doctor.

That's not the case for engineers. There's a reason for that. Many schools focus on research, getting research money to do, uh, really advanced cutting edge projects, but they have not been engineers themselves. So a question that students have always asked me is, Why are we learning this? Why do we need to know this heat transfer, this fluid flow, or this thermodynamics?

And I can tell them why, but when they ask most professors, they can't answer that question because they've never been an engineer. And that's frustrating to me because one of my jobs in industry was hiring new engineers. And when they come out, they're not as well prepared as they could be and lots of people, including me, would argue should be.

We used to play jokes on them. We used to send them up to the shop to get the left handed screwdriver. And they would dutifully go up and ask the technicians, and they'd get laughed at. You know, it was great fun. Or send them up to the shop to get the pipe stretcher, and they'd race up there to get that.

And, you know, there's no such thing as that. So, the problem is when they come out, they haven't learned. how you use this information that they've learned. The theory is important, of course, but it can't all be theory, because guess what? Almost all the problems we solve are not in the book. That's why engineers get paid a lot of money.

That's why I love it. That's why we get to think. So if you can't apply what you've learned, you're not going to be a very good engineer. So this was a chance for me to stop complaining and to start to do some things differently. So I'm just so excited that we can, we're doing some things differently than when I went to school.

When I went to school, I would say, I don't remember any of my professors ever being an engineer. I don't remember us ever having any guest lectures come in that were engineers. And so I learned, because I was in a co op program, I learned when I went out to work, but I didn't learn anything from my instructors about being an engineer.

So, that's what we're trying to do. My goal is that our industry partners will say, yeah, we need engineers, but if I have my choice, I'd rather have one from OBU, because they're better prepared. We used to have a president at the company I retired from, he joked that it took a new engineer two years to figure out where the bathroom was.

He was kidding, of course, but his point was, these guys aren't ready. And it's not their fault, because they're not being taught by folks that know what real engineers do. Okay, I'll get off my soapbox. 

Niccole Hall: On that note, because of course you're in industry, have you, have you noticed that as well? Do you feel like we have students coming in that are ill prepared to come on with Kimray? I mean, are they, do you feel like it's more of, like they have a lot of theory, and it's gonna take a long time for them to understand what you all do? 

Thomas Hill III: Well, unfortunately, I feel that way about almost everybody that comes out of college. I, I think that in many ways the concepts that are being used to create four year degree programs are not really acknowledging what we need from people that we're trying to employ.

And I think that historically education, the education system is just really slow. They lag. the reality of, of, of the day to day world pretty significantly sometimes. So I'm going to say that about everybody that we hire, you know, no matter what their degree program is, uh, the material that they're studying is old.

They're not current. They don't have a lot of practical experience. Um, I think part of that is because we're trying to cram too much. There's too much specialization. And so you go straight to, you know, to some special, uh, uh, You know, line of study, but I just definitely agree with doctor, uh, that we need more hands on now.

You know, my favorite class when I was at Oklahoma state getting my degree in mechanical engineering was a materials and failure analysis class. And the reason it was my favorite class was because the guy that was teaching it was a practicing engineer. And every problem we worked on in class was something that he had brought in from the field.

He was called all over the United States. You know, basically, if a bridge collapsed or the walkway in a mall collapsed, he was the guy they called. He was the, the, the best in the, in the United States for figuring out what had happened. And he brought back all of that material and all of those components and all the data.

And he, of course, already knew the answer, but then he would have us work on those problems. You felt like you were doing something that was real. And then I also appreciated when we finally got around. To doing our practicums at Oklahoma State. We were matched with industry and we got to work on a real problem I actually got to design a part that ended up in a manufactured product for a fairly large company And of course you sign a bunch of NDA NDAs and you sign a piece of paper says you're never gonna make a dime no matter What but it was fun because we were making something that was real as opposed to just working things out in the book, but Doctor, you said something else that I think is really important.

And that is that, um, when I'm hiring someone, I'm not just hiring a skill. I'm hiring a human being who is going to become part of our team. They're going to become part of our community and we're going to be doing life with each other. I don't believe that there's work and life. I banned the term work life balance at Kimray, because Work is life and life is work and we do both.

And if we're not living for all those hours that we're at work, then what, what are we doing? So that's part of our community. We're going to be interacting. We're going to be doing life together. And it is much easier in a community to do life with people who have shared core values and shared beliefs.

Now Kimray is a very diverse place and there's no requirement for you to believe any particular thing except Kimray's core belief, which is everybody's intrinsically and equally valuable. But in today's world where there is so little anchor for morality, and morality even seems to be a dirty word now, nobody wants to talk about morality, but we want to talk about ethics.

There's no ethics without morality. Ethics is the practice of morality. And so hiring someone who shares our core values is going to be a much easier fit for our community. And it's not so much that they're Christian per se, um, I wouldn't hire a lot of people who would call themselves Christian, but if they have, if they have spent time with people like you, who share our beliefs and share our core values, then they're more likely to fit into our community. And, and, and that's going to a, I think that that has as much to do with how quickly they become productive and how quickly they become part of our community. Because part of that, New part of that not knowing any is not just not knowing where the bathroom is It's not knowing how to interact with people and not knowing what the expectations are And so I think that's really useful and really helpful So I think the two things that are going to be going on here that are very significant is one That it is faith based that we do You know these are engineers who are going to believe there's right and wrong in the ethical and moral world not just in the You know textbook world and then that there is we need more every field needs more practical experience.

I really think Young people should be working as much as they're studying I just don't think they're getting enough hands on experience and then they get to us and they're like well this is hard. Yeah, that's what we do for a living, you know. 

Niccole Hall: Something that I think is great about this, these new programs is that we are, we're new and we're starting off and we are a small university.

So I feel like we can be more, um, flexible and adaptable and with industry partners like you, Dr. Baukal can say, Hey, can you come to my classroom? Can you, um, meet with these students? And they can have more of a real world. conversation with someone who is going to say this is what you can expect and this is what we need.

So I think this is all really awesome. Okay, we've been talking a lot about the theoretical versus the practical. I'd like to hear more on your, more thoughts on, um, students working. You know, what can they do to prepare more practically before they enter? The four year degree program at OBU that's maybe mechanical or electrical engineering.

Ideas on that. Programs, I don't know, in the high, at the high school level, tech schools. What would you suggest? 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: One of the things that's changed pretty dramatically from when I went to school many years ago is most of the students were guys and most of them, most of us, worked on our cars, right? Not so easy to do today.

The cars are computerized. It's harder to do. Well, we weren't nearly as good at computers as the students coming out today. So today, students are really good with computers, not so good with hands on. Some students, you could hand them a wrench and they might not know which end of the wrench to hold. So, one of the things that we have seen, at least that I've seen in recruiting, is the best students that I recruit coming into college are the ones that go to our tech centers in Oklahoma.

Uh, we don't do some things in Oklahoma great for education, but this is something we're doing better than most, most states…

Thomas Hill III: It’s true. 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: …in the country. So, the students that are in the tech centers, they are taking what is called Project Lead the Way. They have pre engineering, they have biomedical, and they have computer science.

And those, and this is a nationwide program, so it's not just Oklahoma. And those students are really well prepared. They're better prepared in math. That's the biggest weakness that I see of high school students in general is they're not very well prepared in math. So something that that students can do is if they can get into a project lead the way program they're going to be way ahead and they'll know if engineering's for them or not because they're doing some pre engineering in high school 

Niccole Hall: That’s great. 

Thomas Hill III: Yeah, those are outstanding programs You know, I think that a lot of things have, have morphed a little bit. I, I think that, you know, we're seeing more, um, internships that are actually useful. Um, I know that if you're an engineering intern at Kimray, you're going to be working on an actual project. You're going to be responsible for work product. We're expecting you to actually create something, do something, be a, be a proactive member of the team.

Um, obviously we're going to take into account, you know, where you are and what you do and don't know and somebody's going to be looking over your shoulder, but. You're going to be doing real work. So I think, you know, colleges and universities should be working really hard. I know that historically, that's kind of been something that got left up to the students.

You know, you need to go out and get an internship. You need to go out and get a job. I think it should be part of the program to say, We're going to expect you to have spent some time in the real world. Maybe even to the point that they take a semester and work as opposed to going to classes. I think there's a lot of opportunity.

I just think that the traditional four years of just being in a classroom is probably outmoded for what we need people to be able to do today. And so I think anything that we do that mixes that up is going to be helpful, especially if it pushes them towards doing something hands on, actually getting some experience.

Dr. Chuck Baukal: So I'll piggyback on that. And there are two things in the German model for an undergraduate education that I think are good. First one is that they're tech schools. The professors typically have to work for at least five years before they can be a professor. But the second thing is what Thomas mentioned is their students are working with industry the whole four years that they're in school.

And I don't know about you, but I think German engineers are some of the best in the world. When they graduate, they know the basic things. You're not going to trick them and, you know, going to get a left handed screwdriver. So, and that's our advice to our students is. Do as many internships as you can for a variety of reasons.

One is the pay is way better than they're going to get at Walmart or McDonald's. Two, they're going to get real world experience to see how do we apply what we're learning in class to this. And three, they're going to learn what they like and what they don't like. And really, for an employer, you don't want to hire somebody that doesn't like what you do, because eventually they're going to leave.

So, you want to find out early, is this for this student or not? And again, that benefits both the student and the employer. And maybe they like the employer, but they don't like this particular job. Well, next summer do a different, go rotate in a different group, and find out maybe that's something you like better. So, yeah, I wholeheartedly agree, internships a must. A lot of companies these days are not hiring students unless they've done at least one internship, preferably with them, but not necessarily. 

Niccole Hall: It makes sense. Um, could you talk to us a little bit about our current programs? Student enrollment as far as, you know, how many do we have currently enrolled? What can we look for next year? And then even accreditation. I know we get a lot of questions on that. 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: Sure. So the program started in fall of 2023. Our goal for that first semester was to get 12 students. Doesn't sound like a lot but we did not get approval from the higher learning commission Until the october of the year before and you normally want at least a whole year to advertise So we missed some prime recruiting.

You're not allowed to advertise until you get their approval. So you can't pre advertise So the goal was 12, which again doesn't sound like very many We ended up with 37. So way more than we expected. In fact, I'm told, and this is before I got here, I'm told that our leadership considered waiting another year.

And Dr. Thomas said, nope, let's, let's go. And so we did. So, uh, of that 37, 28 persisted. So they made it to the second year. We had 28 new students come in. So we have 56 students in the program right now. And Deposits and admissions for next fall are way ahead of where we were at this time last year. Last year at this time we had three deposits and I think 39 Admissions we have 14 deposits and 70 admissions. So I don't know what's going on I don't know if the word's getting out, but I’m excited and scared for next semester next year.

Niccole Hall: It’s a lot going on That's so exciting. Um, and then in regard to pursuing additional accreditation, certifications, those are questions we kind of get asked. Is that a big deal?

Niccole Hall: I know we have, what, sophomores now, and I guess once their seniors is that when OBU can officially apply for accreditation?

Dr. Chuck Baukal: So, ABET accreditation you cannot be accredited until you have at least one graduate from a program. So, our first graduates won't be for a couple more years yet. And then the process takes about 15 months after your first graduate.

So, uh, What we're the plan is then obviously that we're going to get accredited because you have to be accredited, right? There are some bigger companies that will not hire students from an unaccredited program they won't they're not allowed to donate to a program like that. Interestingly though many of our advisory board members have said it's not as important as I thought it might be. What they do is they evaluate students on their own merit similarly for graduate programs most graduate students in engineering come from outside the United States and their programs are not accredited So the graduate programs again, they're going to evaluate the students on their own merit But again that being said we need to be accredited.

I've been a program evaluator for ABET for over 10 years I just went on a visit a few weeks ago So I know the process it's a fairly painful process, but I know what we have to do So we will go through that when the time comes. 

Niccole Hall: Are there plans to introduce any other programs? So currently we have mechanical, electrical and software? Is that correct?

Dr. Chuck Baukal: Correct.

Niccole Hall: Okay. And will there be plans, do you foresee that there will be other programs added in the future? Are you just coming to kind of hone in on those three? 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: We are considering some other programs. I won't say which ones yet because we have to run up the…

Niccole Hall: Right.

Dr. Chuck Baukal: …flagpole. But yes, there will be some more. The funny thing is since we had a lot more enrolled in the first semester than we planned for the immediate question from administration is what else can we add? I said, wait a minute. I just got here. You know, give me some time. But yeah, that's exciting. 

Niccole Hall: It's really exciting. How do you think that OBU's, this program will be different than even like a larger university's program?

Niccole Hall: I mean obviously, Smaller class sizes. Are there things that you think would be a benefit to having being in a smaller school of engineering? 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: So I went to a bigger school and one of the problems in engineering education in at big group schools is the, the introductory classes are often very large. So I talked to a lady who teaches at one of our tech centers here in Oklahoma.

She was a freshman at one of our big state schools. She was in a class of 800 students. And it's not uncommon for those introductory classes to have 100 or more. 800 seems a bit of a stretch. But that's, that's a problem. So that's the first part of the problem. Second part of the problem is that many of those introductory classes are taught by graduate students.

We call them teaching assistants, so they're not professors. The third part of the problem is many of those graduate students, their native language is not English. 

Thomas Hill III: Yeah, I would like to second that, um, and tell you why that's so important. I went to Oklahoma State University, got my degree there.

Five of my sons went to Oklahoma State. My daughter came here. And so I know what the experience here is from a parent, you know, watching a student go through school. And she had a very different college experience here because the environment is, uh, much friendlier. You know, by the time she was done here, she pretty much knew everybody on campus.

her professors and, and her, you know, the people that she was interacting with in the administration knew her by name. Now that happens for you at Oklahoma state when you're a second semester junior, maybe, you know, senior and you get into smaller class sizes because basically they weeded everybody out.

But, uh, he's exactly right. Those initial classes are large and especially the math classes. And he just told you that we had a lot of people now coming out of, High school that are behind. Where they really should be on math and they're behind on some of their other physics and some of those things. So they could put in these large sections often with someone who's difficult to understand or you know, just isn't I mean it's just a low paying job for them.

They're trying to fund their own schooling and They get through the class, but they have not mastered the material. And one of the problems with, I think this is probably true in all areas of knowledge, but it is unbelievably important in engineering that you don't just, you didn't just get through the math and you didn't just get through the basic sciences, you really need to master them.

Because when you get farther down the road, Those things should be as simple as tying your shoes. They should be as simple as, you know, when you're sitting at dinner, you're not thinking about what it, how you're going to bring the fork to your mouth, right? It's a, it's a, it's just a ingrained thing. And I'm going to tell you, if you're going to be a really good engineer, a lot of the math, a lot of the base sciences, you can't, you don't have time to think about those need to be things that are ingrained.

So what we're seeing is we're seeing engineers who are They're capable, they're smart, they have good ideas, but it takes them too long to process what's going on because they're, they're having to mechanically crank through things that you really should just know. I remember working with my grandfather, um, Who learned engineering long before either one of us.

Um, he was still doing calculations with a slide rule. When he and I, and he would race me on my Hewlett Packard calculator. And he would beat me on his slide rule. And he would have two or three more, um, points behind the decimal place because his slide rule is more accurate than my Hewlett Packard and to use a slide rule you have to Fundamentally understand the nature of math So I think that one of the things that has happened is not only are we not putting enough effort Into those basics and not putting enough effort into them becoming masters of those It's also just gotten easier.

I know my I have a son who's an engineer and his You know his attitude is why should I learn to graph stuff? I can do that I mean I can plug the stuff in on a spreadsheet that's free on my computer and it'll graph it for me And I’m like well because you don't understand, you know, there's a piece there that we're missing I don't I don't have a solution to that.

I'm sure that you all are working on that But I do know that if we can if we can give These young students more attention and see where they're having difficulty, which is going to happen better in a small class size. It's going to be happening better on a smaller campus. Then they have an opportunity to not get behind or at least to stay up and then they're going to end up being better engineers simply because they have mastery of things that when you go through the mill you maybe not getting there.

I think that's really important. And I think that big in education is not necessarily better. 

Niccole Hall: It makes sense. 

Thomas Hill III: Scale is not necessarily good. We know that as engineers, things don't actually scale the way you think they do. [00:33:00] 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: Yeah. One of the things that I tell prospective students is if you want to be anonymous in class, OBU is not going to be a good place for you because the professor is going to know who you are.

And I think that's a good thing, but if you want to be anonymous, go to a big school and the professors won't know who you are. But at a smaller school, the professor can help you with the class material, of course. They can help you get internships. They can help you get jobs. They can help you with life if you want them to, right?

That's why we're here. If you're not a good teacher, you're not gonna last very long at OBU. Whereas at a bigger school, again, the school I went to was a bigger school, Their focus is more on research, bringing in dollars, you know, writing papers. Frankly, you could be not the greatest teacher, but if you're bringing enough money in for research and you're writing enough papers, you're gonna get tenure.

And that's unfortunate, but that's, that's the reality. 

Niccole Hall: So I'd like to kind of wrap up our time with some updates on Thurmond Hall. Thurmond Hall is where our, all of our engineering programs will be housed. And actually our first floor is currently finished correct So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about what the first floor looks like When things will be opening up just maybe some construction updates And then I’d like to talk a little bit too about Thomas's gift from Kimray to the university. But first we'll talk about…. Construction.

Dr. Chuck Baukal: Awesome, so we are working on the final design for the second and third floor right now In fact, I have a meeting this afternoon regarding that. So the plan is we're going to send those drawings out for bid Hopefully this month and then start demolition in January and have the second or third floor completed by about this time next year so we can take occupancy in the spring of 2026.

So I'm really excited. We're going to have some really awesome classrooms, some laboratories, some faculty offices, and a newer trend these days in engineering buildings is study places for students. Right? When I went to school, we didn't have those study spaces. You just kind of have to find somewhere, usually the library or somewhere else.

Uh, and we also didn't have places to do our projects. Well, we have some really nice project space, again, that I didn't have when I was going to school. So I'm really excited about that. I think the students are going to really like it. And two things that are going to be special about our facility. One is that the Bison that you're going to see when you first come up the main steps to come into the building.

And then we have a drone that was donated to us by Kratos Defense. It's a military drone. It's a cruise missile drone. It's about 10 feet long. About a six foot wingspan. So when you come inside the building, you're going to see that as well. So, we'll have two things that I think are really special that I'm excited about.

Niccole Hall: I'm excited about those too. You brought some little 3D, um, bison, correct? So there's a 3D printing space. We got another, these are gifts for, for Thomas. Um, and a wind tunnel, what are some other, I mean I know there's labs, what, what are some other spaces that you could talk to us a little bit about that maybe the listeners don't know?

Dr. Chuck Baukal: So the, the wind tunnel is, is a key one for our program. We have an aerospace emphasis. Uh, that doesn't mean students have to go into aerospace. I didn't come from aerospace, I came from oil and gas. But there are lots of employers, especially Tinker Air Force Base, That are interested in that. So the wind tunnel, we'll use that in a few classes for labs.

Students can use it for their projects, for their design projects, their capstone projects, things like that. So that's an important space. We actually ordered the wind tunnel. It'll be here in April. It takes like five months to build. And then we'll have some laboratories that are going to be very flexible in how we use them.

So I'm excited about that space as well. 

Niccole Hall: That's really great. 

Thomas Hill III: Can I come use the wind tunnel? 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: Yes, you may. Absolutely. 

Niccole Hall: Thomas wants to come do something.

Thomas Hill III:  I haven't had a wind tunnel 

Dr. Chuck Baukal: He's gonna bring a rocket and blow the place up then. No, no, no arm, no arm devices inside the building. I 

Thomas Hill III:  no arm devices inside the building. I promise

Niccole Hall: Well, we are really thankful for this partnership that OBU has with Kimray. Um on many levels.

I know you have inspired. Um, Dr. Thomas and our university to Look differently at even art, which is exciting. You don't always think about engineers being artists or as creative as you are, but I mean, you are, you're very creative. So tell me a little bit about this, this bison that's going in front of Thurmond Hall, that will be kind of our centerpiece for students walking into their engineering programs.

Thomas Hill III: Well, since OBU is obviously older than I am, I'm going to have to acquiesce that they had the bison thing going before I did. But I have bison guy for a while. It had nothing to do with, I didn't even know OBU existed until my daughter decided to go to school here. And I tell, uh, Dr. Thomas all the time.

This is Oklahoma's best kept secret, and I don't know why we need to stop. We need to stop having this be a secret. We're working on that, but uh, we like bison because bison remind us of something that's true about our community. So as an employer, you all as running a school, you're, you're creating a community here.

You're bringing students in. You want them to stay, right? It'd be nice if they stayed and got their degree here. I like it when I hire people and I invest a lot of money in their training and bringing them into the community. It's nice if they stay. It's helpful not to have turnover. And so, bison are herd animals, unlike cattle.

They stick together. They protect each other. Uh, you've probably heard about the into the storm thing, you know, if a storm's coming. And so, uh, They only need three things to be content in their herd first and foremost They need their basic needs met which for bison is easy That's just grass and water and they need to feel safe Which I find ironic because they have no natural predators and they're very big and very scary animals but they don't like to be harassed by wolves or bears or whatever they'll move if there's if there's a lot of harassment of the herd and then they need community and Community for bison is other bison in a in a family unit in a herd unit. We started thinking about the fact that people are a little like bison or maybe bison like people, depending on which way you want to want to pitch that.

We need our basic needs met in order to stay somewhere in order to be content in a community, in a group. We need our basic needs met. People are a little more complicated. You know, here on this university campus, there's a lot of things that would equate to someone getting their needs met, personal attention, feeling like you're connected, part of the community, having the opportunities that you need for our employees.

Obviously, first and foremost, it's that we're paying them well so that they can take care of their families and see their dreams and their visions come to fruition. We all need to feel safe. And in the manufacturing world, in the business world, we've focused very heavily on physical safety. In fact, we started out talking about physical safety.

I don't think we're doing a great job on mental and emotional safety, and we need to do a much better job of that. And I would say that's something that a small university is probably much better at, is that you're going to notice when someone's not doing well quicker, there's going to be more opportunities for people to be interacting at a personal level.

So I think that's a great thing that you offer here. And then, we need connection. We need community. And that's not just shoving, you know, you can find community to Oklahoma State. I'm, I'm a big fan. I go back all the time. I still have a kid. I'm going to school there. My dad got his degree there. I went to preschool there.

I love this, love the, the university. But with 20 or 30 thousand students on campus, you can be anonymous. You can be lost. You can go back to your dorm room and sit there and nobody would know whether you were there or not. Um, and the same thing is true, you know, just putting a lot of people in one place doesn't create community.

There has to be connection around a mission. And that's one of the things that I think, uh, is fantastic about OBU, is that everybody here is going to have similar ideas about what they want out of their life. The kind of person they want to be. It's much easier to create that connection, you know, to be a bison here.

So we have a bison and we use that as our kind of our, our emblem. And a while back I, and he started out as just a 2d representation a while back. I said, We can make him 3d and I am a mechanical engineer. I'm not a real artist. And so the, the bison that you're going to see out in front of Thurmond hall is the way a mechanical engineer sees bison.

He's very angular. It's made out of tubing. It's, it's kind of a cool deal, but I think he's a pretty cool statue.

Niccole Hall: He’s pretty cool. I'm excited.

Thomas Hill III: And the whole art thing, you know, the, the world would be a terrible place without beauty. God, uh, is as much as anything else, creative. If you look around, if you look at a sunrise or a sunset, you look at a tree or a flower or all the animals or even us, just so much infinite variety, color and beauty everywhere you look.

And I think we're meant to see that. I think we're meant to spend time with that. And then we build buildings that are flat walls that are painted gray and floors that are, you know, and so I think there should be art in buildings. I think that the spaces that we spend time in impact us, they can impact us positively, or they can impact us negatively.

And I think art helps shift it toward the positive side. And so at Kimray, we have an enormous art collection. We hang art everywhere. It's in our commissaries, in our halls, in the shop, uh, our people are involved in it. And, uh, we just have fun. And I, and I think art's important for another reason is I think it helps us practice empathy.

Because when you see a piece of art, you should be asking yourself what the artist was thinking and what the artist was doing. And what if all of us approached interactions with other people and our first question was, I wonder what it's like to be that person. I wonder what that person's experiences have been rather than putting our own ideas and our own assumptions on top of them.

I think the world would be a, safer, more communal place. So, I think art can help us do that. 

Niccole Hall: It can. And that's definitely inspired Dr. Thomas. I know we have actually an art committee now on campus and we are going to be very excited to pick, um, different pieces and I think the pieces will be inside, outside, I mean sculptures, whatever, to go on these new beautiful facilities that we are working on.

Niccole Hall: For our university. So I'm so thankful that you were both here today. Um, of course our, the title of our podcast is all of life, all for Jesus. I think that this, um, these engineering programs are crucial to our university shaping the future practically. And it makes me excited that, um, we have you all to kind of lead out and be visionaries and examples for all of our students.

Niccole Hall: Thank you so much for being on here today. 

Thomas Hill III: Thank you.

Dr. Chuck Baukal: Thank you.