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Digging Deeper - Deb and Bob Pickens: Four Decades of Volleyball Development
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In this episode of Digging Deeper, in proud partnership with Volleyball England, we sit down with two incredible champions of the sport: Deb and Bob Pickens. Originally from the USA, Deb and Bob moved to the UK over 40 years ago and what was meant to be a two-year stay turned into a lifelong commitment to developing volleyball in the South East and beyond.
Deb reflects on her NCAA playing days at the University of Missouri and shares the story of how she met Bob, before the pair made the leap across the pond. We dive into Deb’s early days as a PE teacher and explore the cultural differences between the US and UK when it comes to sport and coaching.
From coaching at ACS International School in Cobham to becoming deeply embedded in local and regional volleyball, their passion for grassroots development shines through. We explore how that passion led to the creation of VBDC camps, which have grown into a well-respected hub for junior talent, offering a range of opportunities for both elite and emerging young athletes.
Deb and Bob reflect on working with coaches from around the world, their evolving approach to performance coaching, and the joy of watching players grow. To round off the episode, we dig into some of the current challenges facing junior development in the UK and hear their thoughts on what needs to change to move things forward.
This one is full of heart, wisdom and decades of experience. A must-listen for anyone passionate about the future of our game.
Connecting Through Conversation
That. That Volleyball Guy Hello, I'm Luke Wiltshire, the host of that Volleyball Guy, and if you love volleyball as much as me, then you're in the right place. That Volleyball Guy Hello, and welcome to that Volleyball Guy with me, luke Wiltshire, and welcome to our second episode of Digging Deeper in partnership with Volleyball England. Of Digging Deeper in partnership with Volleyball England A reminder that these Digging Deeper episodes give us the chance to sit down and have a conversation with some truly inspirational and remarkable people in the sport, and I have got two amazing people for you lined up on the show today. A reminder, then before we dive into this conversation and this is a conversation that I am really excited and looking forward to I just ask for your support. Like I said, I set this podcast up because I really do believe that, in England, we need to share more about our amazing sport so many amazing people, so many good stories that are out there and people that have done truly remarkable things that often go under the radar and this podcast is the platform to share those stories so that we can continue to grow this sport in this country and we really, really do have a great community and this is all just about giving back and allowing people to have their say. So for me, if I could ask you all to share this podcast. Wherever you listen to your podcast, please like, subscribe and share. It helps more than you know and I look forward to developing this podcast and sharing more with you over the next couple of months.
Speaker 1:So then, digging deeper my conversation today, the guests that I've got for you, like I said, are truly special. I've known them personally for quite a while and we'll dig into some of our earlier experiences. They really, for me, they really embody everything that's good about volleyball in this country. And it's a first for you guys it's my first married couple. So here we go.
Speaker 1:She is an ex-player in the NCAA University in America of Missouri, the Tigers, in the 1970s. He started playing volleyball after meeting her at university, which we will definitely dive into a little bit more. They moved to the UK in 1980 and started getting involved in all levels of volleyball in this country and then fast forward, setting up volleyball development camps in 2005, which has thrived over the last 20 years, now includes their own club camps, supporting scholarships, and they're currently the sponsors of Mallory Eagles in the Super League. They're both actively involved in volleyball, whether that be in coaching, part of youth development infrastructure or volunteering on local associations. I am really pleased and honoured to be welcomed on the show today by Deb and Bob Pickens, deb and Bob hello.
Speaker 2:Hello, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:Well, thank you ever so much for giving up some of your time. You're very busy people, so I feel quite honoured to get you for an hour.
Speaker 1:My pleasure and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Bob, we were chatting before we went live on. Our introduction to each other was about 15 years ago, when we both worked as coaches for a local um, a local association, part of the junior, yeah, regional program. Yeah, yeah, and we maybe we'll touch on that later about our uh, our uh, our winning, our winning ways as a coaching duo and and we've never coached together since, but hey. So, look, there is so much to talk to you about and I really struggled to think about how can I frame this conversation with these two people, but I always like to start the conversations about your early days in volleyball. So, deb, I'm going to start with you. Talk to us about your early days in volleyball. So, deb, I'm going to start with you. Talk to us about your early playing days then.
Speaker 3:Well, I was a basketball player to begin with. My love was basketball and I started playing volleyball because my coach had been in the Olympics. He was an Olympian and just took me under his wing and started training me as a setter. I played on a women's team and then, once I finished high school, then I went on to university called Graceland University for two years before I transferred to the University of Missouri where I played volleyball for them for two years and that's when I met Bob and he got to see a lot of volleyball and and action and and kind of in the early days of volleyball. So it's now big, big big. We used to drive our cars to go to all the the tournaments and and matches, and now they take a private jet to get to their, to their games.
Speaker 1:So it's pretty good I bet, and so you've obviously seen it change. But talk to me then a little bit more about what it was like training for a university team and the sort of culture and environment of coaching in at that level well, at that time, um, women's sports, um did not have equal rights.
Speaker 3:It was, uh, uh, title nine came in about three years after I um graduated, and that gave equal opportunities to both men and women for sports. Um, and you know it, it's made some big changes in all sports and so we funded everything. All our things were funded by the players. So all the women's team didn't have any funding, but men's teams did. So, you know, we drove our cars, our training sessions were in kind of an old gym, our matches were in a kind of arena with a kind of like a boxing ring. It was lifted up and it's, you know, had the track around it. So if you lost the ball, you'd have to jump down and go chase the ball and then climb back up onto the, you know, to the area where you're playing volleyball.
Speaker 2:So it was dirt. Yeah, it was dirt, it was dirt, yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it was lots of fond memories. It was nice to move to a bigger university where volleyball was a little bit more, a bit higher level and, you know, had a lot more structure to it. So it was good and just kept going from there.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned then that you were a setter. I was. I'm very intrigued by this. Not that I've got any statistics or data to back this statement up, but I'm finding that a lot of the coaches I speak to often have played as a setter. Now tell me, tell me now again, no, no, no data or statistics to back that up, but talk to me about your setting career then. What was your strength of your game? Do you think?
Speaker 3:um, I don't know, I was pretty quick, I wasn't. You know, at that time height wasn't that important. You know now, you, you know if I went back to a reunion a few, oh, about maybe 10 years ago or so, and you know I was the shortest one there, you know they're all over six foot tall. But you know I think I, my coach, my first coach, was a setter. So you know I developed a lot of those skills from his you know background of coaching me. So I just I liked kind of that whole being on the court and kind of be the playmaker. I like that. I have a strong sense of, I think, determination and I like to win, a strong sense of, I think, determination and I like to win. So you know, I think, being a setter, you know you have you kind of push that team to go as far as they can and you know, make the best out of the situations that you have.
Speaker 1:And you're absolutely right. You know, as a setter, you are that playmaker, aren't you? And that tactician, often knowing what's going on on the other side of the court, where the gaps in the block are all those sorts of things. So is that something that you've pushed with your coaching career, which we'll come on to later but is that like your setting experience? Do you think that's helped you in your coaching career? Do you think, Understanding of the game, yeah, I think I've.
Speaker 3:I also like the pass, so I think at that time they didn't have liberos, but I think I would have liked to have done that too. I love passing, so you know it's it position and you know at the level that we're coaching at, especially at club level, you know, you see, these top level teams and the players that are blocking can put up a block quite a bit of the time, but with your younger teams they can't do that. And trying to develop that strategy with them and have them give them the understanding and and I think probably the experience and just the maturity of of, you know, coaching that kind of younger player has always been a challenge and I've liked it. You know, I've just changed from coaching girls from probably for almost like 40 years, to boys about four years ago, and I really like coaching boys because you can be straightforward hold on to that.
Speaker 1:So we'll come back to that bit in a minute. So no awesome, it sounds like your earlier. I'm always intrigued that people's early sort of playing career determines, especially from a coaching perspective, how they then. You take a lot of that, even if it's unconsciously, into your coaching later on in life and some of the lessons you learn. I was just thinking I think, Bob I actually think it was you that told me this once which has always stuck with me, which is you can out-defend a team, you can out-attack a team. See and that's always stuck with me Does that sound something you would say?
Speaker 2:No, but I'd like to claim it if you don't mind.
Speaker 1:Deal, okay. So, Bob, tell us a little bit about meeting Deb at university and how you got involved in volleyball then.
Speaker 2:Well, it was a sunny afternoon. I was just staring out the window of a fraternity house I lived in and a car pulled in and a couple of girls got out and Deb was one of them. I was a couple of floors up looking down and I could tell she was kind of hot and sweaty just come back from training and she was in her shorts red shorts and a yellow t-shirt and I kind of liked the sight and I said I'm gonna have some of that and uh, so I went down and asked her to a gridiron football game. Just to what? Sorry, a gridiron football game.
Speaker 1:You're gonna have to explain that American football.
Speaker 2:Okay, cool, great guy on the marking zone. Okay, yeah. I'm not going to tell you what went on after that day. No, no.
Speaker 1:That's right, probably best. And then tell us a little bit about how you got involved. Did you start playing volleyball at that time? Had you ever played volleyball before that?
Speaker 2:You know church socials and stuff like that. I didn't know it as a tactical game or a highly organized competition and Deb introduced me to that and got me involved in local leagues and that sort of thing and that's how I got introduced to it.
Speaker 1:I really didn't know much about it no, and you're right, because even when you speak to people in this country, right, whenever people say, oh, what sport do you play? And I often come out with you know, I'm play volleyball, I coach volleyball. Oh yeah, I played that on holiday once on the beach and you're like, yeah and that's fine.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's one of the great things about volleyball it's versatility. It can be played at church socials all the way to Olympics.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. Then you moved. I believe you moved over to and shed some light on this. You moved over to the UK in 1980, I think was it for a teaching job, deb, maybe you could elaborate a little bit more teaching job, deb, maybe you could elaborate a little bit more.
Speaker 3:And um, in the states, um, when you uh, all the communities have um, let they have levies and if they don't get the levies passed then they have to do um, they get rid of some of the things within the school district. So the things like sports, you know, pe, art, music, and usually they pass, but it takes several times before they pass. And I just thought you know what? We've just been married a couple of years. Bob's parents lived over here. Let's take the opportunity to maybe see if we can get jobs abroad. And I got offered a few teaching jobs. One of them was at the school ACS Cobham International School, which was the American Community School at that time, and my sister-in-law went there, so I was familiar with it. I got offered several offers, but that one was the one I took and we were going to be there for two years. I was going to coach volleyball and be a PE teacher and 45 years later we're still here.
Speaker 1:Wow, so something, something caught you, I guess, and so talk to us about your early teaching, sort of your early teaching memories in the UK, and teaching PE and volleyball to perhaps a different level, because volleyball is not the sport. It may be in America, mate, would that be?
Speaker 3:fair. Yeah, it was very different coaching and you know I was probably a lot of the British coaches and teachers when they said you know you got it can't be so tough on those kids, you know a little bit easier on them. Said you know you got to can't be so tough on those kids, you know, a little bit easier on them. You know the regimes in the States were a lot harder and and you know I was trying to implement those things into the, the. You know the, the three months, because the school only has volleyball, you know, for three months they go on the American system and not. You know there's not really clubs around in the UK at that time. A few I think there was. You know the closest one was Ashcom, but so it was.
Speaker 3:It took me a while to acclimate to that coaching style that I kind of was expected to have at that school and I liked it. You know I coached the high level girls, you know, with the varsity girls, not kind of the same level that was in the United States, but you know still good for that that. You know, international schools setting, I think so, schools setting, I think so. Yeah, we did a lot of a lot and a lot of trips and you know, with international schools, tournaments, which was nice Met a lot of friends still friends with people after 40 years. You know they're all over the world still and and that's the nice thing about you know coming abroad and that's what's kept us here, I think, is you know the kind of the, all the different people you meet, not only volleyball but you know outside of the volleyball community too.
Speaker 1:So absolutely and obviously I'm intrigued to find out what your sort of early impressions of volleyball in England when you, when you first moved over here, what were your early sort of impressions about volleyball in England? Because obviously it's a sport that's evolved and it's continuing to evolve in this country, um, but what were your sort of early, early takes on our sport?
Speaker 3:well, I think that the thing that was good is that the Ashcombe club, you know, and Fr was the guiding light in that club. They were a hardworking club. They were probably at that time, I think, one of the top clubs in England. It was nice to be associated with that. You could see where it could be. It was still in the states at that time too. It was still, you know, up and coming because of title nine.
Speaker 3:You know, you're still seeing a lot of growth in volleyball and it just, you know it, it really it climbed fast, much faster in the States than it has here. So you know, we, we we've kept up with it because we're, you know, originally from the U S and and so we're familiar with that kind of moment and it it didn't quite keep up here, but we're seeing that kind of rise now, I think, with, you know, a lot of junior clubs and the growth in the Grand Prix's and the interest in volleyball, and I think there's just not enough of us to go around a lot of times to keep it, you know, on that momentum.
Speaker 2:Tell you what got me was when we first moved over here. One of the first things we did within a few months was affiliate with Ashcom, and I don't know if it was before your time or not, luke, but you know that little gym off to the side, that for martial arts and stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah that was the training gym.
Speaker 2:That the, the ceiling's what? 15 feet tall and the net hung off the walls. It didn't have standards in it or anything, and, uh, that was where they trained and you know for what they had, they did a a darn good job, but that was probably the state of the art in volleyball in this country.
Speaker 1:Well interesting. You say that because, as I'm sure I don't know if you're aware, but I also host a show called the Heritage Podcast and we had Richard Tellicott on as the first episode for the first guest. And exactly what you were talking about, bob. Around facilities in that time were just non-existent To play volleyball in. There were probably a handful of sports halls across the country, so that was one of the biggest barriers to to our sport taking off in the uk and in england is the actual and it still continues to be a bit of a challenge today with yes it does with venues, which maybe we'll come on to later.
Speaker 1:Bob, I'm sure that you might want to raise that um I tell you what they ought to put.
Speaker 2:One of those blue plaques in the hall there in Ashcombe you know that says volleyball was first played here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I wonder, Bob. Hey, I wonder what those walls would say and the amount of people that have been in that little gym and played volleyball over the years.
Speaker 1:I personally recall going there as a player and playing in that sports hall. I also recall coaching in that gymnasium, um, and my very, very, very similar and familiar to me, my local school where I grew up in. In secondary school the gymnasium was exactly the same. You know, small hall, slow, ceiling, um teaches you to play a different style of volleyball that maybe the youngsters of today don't, don't, don't, appreciate. But there we go, um. So let's talk, keep keeping it on coaching. Just obviously you're, you're, you know, you're really involved with coaching juniors. I just want to talk about the attributes of a good junior coach from two people that have been around it for a long time and I'm sure you've seen the coaching ethos and Debbie alluded to this earlier. The coaching ethos has changed over the years but in your opinion, what are the attributes of a good junior coach?
Speaker 3:well, I think you know you. You have a um, uh, lots of different personalities. It's a, it's a team that has to work together and I think to me and I have noticed this all along but to know you and I want to know them in a different light, just besides being a volleyball player, you know knowing some of their needs. They're all different and you know manage them. You have to kind of be a little bit of a psychologist and helping them along the way and I like that. You feel good about that when you can help somebody that maybe is having, you know, trying to get over a hump, and they do that and it's rewarding. I think that's you know what you're looking for in coaching.
Speaker 1:I definitely agree. I think you know you mentioned earlier that in the States it was a bit of a regime when you were playing and things move on right and things change. And I think back to even when I started as a junior player. It was very sort of routine, strict. If you were late there was a punishment, those sorts of those sorts of practices. But that seems to have changed. You know, the culture seems to have changed when we talk about juniors, like you say, to getting to know them, what, what, what makes them tick, how can you get the most out of them? Right?
Speaker 3:and I think you form a bond and you have that respect and and you know they're, they feel comfortable coming to you, you know, and talking to you as a person as well as their coach, and that's that's a nice feeling to have and what about for you, bob?
Speaker 1:what do you think greatest attributes of a junior coach are?
Speaker 2:probably the biggest one is patience. Uh, because you can't develop a youngster overnight and you've got to uh understand that they will to a degree. They will, they will progress at their own speed. Uh, you know, they've got their emotions and hormones and things to deal with and you've got to be patient enough to take that into consideration. But I think also, as a coach, you've got to introduce a demanding regime in stair steps to the youngster.
Speaker 2:I think you have to do it in a compassionate way but a firm way, and you need to demand commitment to the sport. If they want to get better, they've got to have that commitment. They've got to set goals. You've got to help them learn that setting a goal is an important part of becoming a better athlete. They've got to learn self-discipline. They've got to learn how, like with these raging hormones that teenagers have, they've got to learn to put their emotions to try to control them, to put them behind, to not worry about, to not think that 500,000 people are looking at them when they get on the serving line or if they make mistakes, a million people are going to say oh, did you see that kid mess up, and forget about it, to try to learn from that mistake, but to put that mistake it's done, it's over with.
Speaker 2:Everybody knows you didn't try to make a mistake, but get on with the next rally, get on with the next point, and that's a hard thing for a kid to overcome, and if you can give them some guidance on that, that's really good. And another thing that a coach would have to steer is that a good, successful relationship involves communications between the coach and the athlete, and generally the athlete has to put in more than 50% of that effort, and youngsters aren't always uh uh, they don't know how to do that necessarily. So if you can help them learn to communicate with their coach in confidence, uh, i's an important skill that probably the best coaches have. The best coaches are not only people who are technically knowledgeable about the sport, but they are able to deliver the lesson. That's why both Deb and I feel that teachers make the best coaches. And if you want an example somebody I think you've interviewed her before. She was the coach at our very first camp is Carol Gordon. I mean, you know I love you, carol. You know she is my all-time greatest coach.
Speaker 1:It's the ability, like you said, bob, it's the ability to take information and make it relatable and transferable to an athlete. Right, because, you're right, you can have really technically good ex-players that try to turn their hand to coaching. You know, and when you look at other sports like football and or soccer sorry, soccer, um rugby then you know it's not always the best coaches, aren't always the best players. Right, there's, there's something about how you get a message across, how you nurture talent, how you can spot potential. Would that be fair? I could talk to you for hours about junior coaching, because I, as you know, I'm I'm a coach and we, we did have some success. Success, bob, didn't we? We coached a regional team to the national, the regional championships, back somewhere, I don't know when, it was a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Well, you, were the head coach. Why don't you say what we did?
Speaker 1:well, we, we won, didn't we? Southeast volleyball under 15ball Under-15s won an Interregional Under-15 competition. But I haven't done much junior coaching because of some of the things that you said. You know, patience is not one of my skills, me neither. I look at you two and I look at any junior coach who puts in so much time and effort and it's hat off to you, because it's different going to coach a group of adults on a cold, dark night in the middle of the English winter compared to rocking up and being that sort of motivational person coaching juniors who you know they are sponges and you are. I think as coaches we have so much impact and influence over these athletes and sometimes we forget some of the some of the sort of influences and not power. I don't want to use the word power, but we make a difference to some of these, these kids' lives, and some of the stuff you've taught them they will have taken on into adult life and probably, you know, into their careers.
Speaker 2:Well, that's one of the things I like about coaching younger kids is, if it's an older person, they've already acquired the skills and they're good volleyball players. But if they're a younger person and if you're successful in inspiring them and teaching them the skills of volleyball, you get to see them grow into the sport, and there's been a bunch of kids that we've seen grow into very good players, go on to play pro ball or get scholarships in the States or, you know, play at a very high level and it really makes you proud to think that you may have had a small hand in helping them get there.
Speaker 3:I can tell you a story, luke, go on. So I think it was about a year ago on Facebook. I got this message and I thought, oh my gosh, it's a scam. And I wrote back to the person and it was a lady and I can't even imagine how old she is. Now that wrote to me that was on my first volleyball team when I taught in the States.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:And she's a grandmother, you know. So she's, she's um, I don't know, probably 50, maybe something like that.
Speaker 3:So I cause I I started coaching in the States when I was 25, I think, Um, and she would have been 16, 17 years old, and she made the effort to contact me and to say what an important part of her life was in that volleyball court, learning volleyball because of school, because of Title IX. It was a new sport at the school that I started, where I taught, and I just thought that was outstanding and those are kind of the rewards you get as a coach, I think. Yeah right.
Speaker 3:And it's you know you can't make those.
Speaker 1:They just happen Absolutely. And I think imagine all the people you've coached over the years. I still bump into people, especially in England, in English volleyball. You know you go to places like the Volleyball Centre in Kettering or Cup Finals, or or even you know I go and watch some Super League matches and I go oh yeah, I remember I played with them or I coached them. There is a real sense of belonging in our sport in this country, I think, because it's smaller than America. Then you get to sort of create these relationships, don't you?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's a small community, but you know, even on a global scale you do. What's the thing Six times removed? The old thing about you know somebody Well, volleyball must only be about two times removed. The old thing about you know somebody Well, volleyball must only be about two times removed. You can't always find somebody somewhere in the world who knows somebody you know in volleyball.
Speaker 3:So we went to the American. We're members of the American Volleyball Coaches Association and we often go to their annual convention. We didn't go this year, we went, went the year before. It was in Tampa and there's probably 2000 people there.
Speaker 2:Maybe, oh no, it's more like about 4,000.
Speaker 3:And so you know, you're seeing a lot of people, coaches and things and I saw this figure walk by me at a distance and I I looked and I thought I know that walk oh my gosh, and it was. She disappeared so I didn't see her. And then the next day we're getting ready to go to the semifinals for the cause. They also do the NCAA finals at the convention and so we were going to the semifinals and this person walked by me and it was somebody I had coached with. She was at the International School of the Hague and our conference that we were in, acs, cobham was in, played against that school. I mean, you know, what are the chances of that happening?
Speaker 1:wow, yeah, it's just. It's remarkable, isn't it? So, yeah, no, and and I love thank you for sharing that lovely uh story about that person who reached out to you. I'm sure you're going to get lots more of those over the years as well, so um.
Speaker 1:I hope so yeah so I could talk to you for hours about this sort of stuff, because this is the bit that I love and it's about showing before we move on to some other things. What would your you know, share your wisdom? What would your, what would your one piece of advice be to any new junior coach that's starting out? You know, what would your one piece of golden advice be? I'm going to start with you, bob. What would your one piece of advice be?
Speaker 2:I think it would be. It would follow the lines of the biblical saying about the child is the father to the son, no child is the is that right Child is, you know the one I'm trying to come up with. It would be learn from your athletes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely Lovely, Thank you. So you're saying you can learn more from your athletes than you know, right?
Speaker 2:Maybe not more, but you can learn an awful lot. Yeah yeah, maybe not more, but you can learn an awful lot. And don't go into that relationship thinking that I'm going to be the teacher and they're going to be the learners. Learn from them, because if you're just willing to think about it a little bit, you can become a much better coach by understanding what your job is to teach the young people. Learn how they feel, how they react. Yeah, deb, for you.
Speaker 3:Well, I think you know, I see we have some young coaches that are young in not maybe age, but young in coaching volleyball.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know, I think enthusiasm for the sport and open-mindedness and taking in you know, I still see things that I think wow, I've never seen that before Always have an open mind to new ideas and new things that will make the sport better and make your teams better and make your club better. You know, just kind of be open to new ideas, I think.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree with you more. I think you know any coach, regardless of sport. You've got to really have a a learn it all culture rather than know it all culture. Right things, move on things move on.
Speaker 1:Things change, you can learn. You know, only recently you mentioned carol gordon, bob. Um, I am very fond of carol, as most people are in this country, um, and you know just someone like that. So I'm actually mentoring a coach myself at the moment, someone who's new to coaching, and we took a trip up to Mallory to go and watch their training, and Carol and Jefferson both sort of took us under our wing and let them watch a training session, ask questions and like that's what you need as a coach and that's what I hear from so many of the coaches that um come on to this show is that they do those things.
Speaker 1:They don't just go into a gym and think they know it all. They. They go and learn from other people, they go and watch video, they go to conferences and keep themselves. You can never know it. You can never know it all, you can just learn it all. That's my, that's my take on it. So let's move on. Then I'm I want to talk about volleyball, development camps and where all this started and where this came from. So take me right the way back to, I believe, 2005.
Speaker 2:Oh boy, do you want to do that or do you want me to start? You go ahead, I know how to guess. It's OK. About that time our oldest son, bo, had been playing at a high level. He played for four years for England and he was lucky to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:There was no sort of established structured pathway into learning performance volleyball. Structured pathway into learning performance volleyball if your parents played you might be able to train with their club or you might get lucky and that your PE teacher was a a player and could help you out. But it was really a a stroke of luck as much as anything that you would get the training needed to to move on, to even discover whether volleyball was your sport. And so one summer Deb and I and John Bittescombe, who I think a lot of people will know, got together and we started holding volleyball camps. We called it volleyball development camps because that's what they were intended to do develop your volleyball and they started out as really a club and Carol taught kids, young athletes, that first one. It was pretty intensive considering the way it was done in this country, or wasn't done, in that it was five days, about six hours a day with a structure to. You know, let's teach these young athletes how to pass, then how to serve, then how to move around the court first of all, how to track the ball, then how to pass and serve and and attack. And it was a success.
Speaker 2:Everybody enjoyed it, and so the next year we did another one and then people started to say, well, you know, not all the kids are that good, could you do one for more beginners? So we introduced ones for really yeah, basically, or skills. Anyway, it was for young athletes who are still developing their individual ball handling skills. You know, they weren't capable of getting into the team-based drills because they weren't that great at consistency or passing. So we started introducing some different curriculums and people like that. And then we developed a few more.
Speaker 2:I think we got it up to about seven curriculums in fact in two divisions skills, which was individual ball training, and performance, which was team-based training, and people started attending them, mostly domestic athletes, uk athletes and we started to earn a little bit of money at it and figured well, you know, the tax man's not going to like this, it's not a really good club. So we went legitimate and formed a limited liability company and did the good thing, reported ourselves to HMRC every year and, you know, went proper. And then, a little bit after that, we found out that young athletes from other countries were coming because they wanted to learn, get comfortable with English, and they found the camps a great opportunity to train volleyball and to study their English, and so we introduced an English language program. And well, it's just grown. We've had lots of different things.
Speaker 3:GCSE.
Speaker 2:GCSE. We do remote studies in GCSE. You know not that many PE teachers are qualified to be assessors for volleyball and Ryan Murphy, who many people will know, is one of the coaches who works with us and he's really, really a good teacher. He takes second place after Carol and he has developed a program where he's choreographed it, where over three days we set up about three video cameras and video kids going through the drills that are required by all the assessing bodies or qualification bodies, whatever they're called, and then we give the young athletes who are on this course I think in Hollywood they call it the roughs. They're edited but they're not finely edited and they make their own package for presentation to their coach from that and that that's a slow burn. We've been doing that for a couple of years but unfortunately GCSE students wait to the last minute to do anything and really the kids who are going to take their GCSEs and sports studies next year should be coming to the one that we're doing this Easter, you know yeah.
Speaker 3:So we do one at Easter and then we do another one in October. And because Ryan is an assessor you know he's and a volleyball coach and a former England junior coach, he knows kind of all the tricks of lower the net make him look like they're jumping really high. He's excellent, he's very good. He's got a very good rapport with kids of that age and again, as Bob said, you know he's a teacher and they seem to make to us the best coaches.
Speaker 2:So an educational aspect to volleyball has been creeping into our offerings, which is really exciting. We really enjoy that. It means a lot to Deb, especially because her career has been in education. But there's other things that we're doing too, like we recently introduced air volleyball, which is sort of like walking football Basketball.
Speaker 2:Only it's upper body stuff and it's with a big oversized ball in a badminton court and it's great fun to see OAPs playing it. A badminton court, and it's great fun to see OAPs playing it. And we we got a grant from a local council to implement it at the local leisure center and, yeah, I was giving credit Elmbridge Borough Council and we've introduced that and we're right now deep into introducing an under-12s program to the UK which we call New Kids on the Block or the Court. New Kids on the Court yes, new Kids, those are the same. It's a young age, from the age of eight.
Speaker 2:Some clubs are starting to realize that and they have uh uh groups where they where they do that. But we've uh actually did a lot of research on this and we talked to experts in, uh, the netherlands, germany, japan, uh, united states. We have the uh the, a guy who uh uh, alton williams out of Miami, who's under 12 team you ought to see them play serving and and uh oh, the real thing. And they won the national championship. And Alton's expertise he's good with all young athletes, but with the really young ones he shines and he came over and really showed us some some great drills and things to look out for when working with youngsters, and it it's coming.
Speaker 2:It's coming because we get I constantly see get requests so from people can I have private lessons for my 10-year-old in volleyball? And you know how do you give a private lesson in volleyball? Yeah, I haven't figured that one out yet. I know they do it in the States and they do it for that, but I haven't figured out a way to do that. So I know that there are people who have youngsters who've seen the Hayaku anime cartoons and who've seen the um Hayaku?
Speaker 2:uh, and they've watched the Olympics and and maybe their older sibling plays volleyball and there's a lot of kids out there who want to take it up, but there is not a scientifically created curriculum that starts with things as basic as how do you move? Yeah, you know, move from one cone on one side of the court to another cone, pick up a tennis ball off that cone and put it on the cone on the other side, then follow a volleyball in the air as you run from cone to cone. Learn tracking. Tracking, it's very basic. Oh, deb taught PE to little ones and really movement is the very first skill you have to teach in any sport, and a lot of times I think there's a tendency to just put a little a nine-year-old out in the court and feed them balls and expect them to be able to dig it. And no, you've got to teach them to move to the ball first of all.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people are a little bit fearful of teaching young kids. Yeah, and I think that's. You know you've got to get past that and you have to be. You're exhausted when you finish because your activities can't be very long. You know they've got to be. You're exhausted when you finish because your activities can't be very long. You know they've got to be short bursts of fun, fun. You know they've got to be something that's fun, that does have a goal at the end. But they don't, maybe don't realize that Um and um. You know there's it's hard to um get a lot of people excited about that.
Speaker 2:I asked Jeff Williams once if he'd ever liked to coach little ones and he said no way. I'm afraid of that.
Speaker 1:I mean, like you say, it takes a completely different character to coach and even if we look at adult volleyball right, sometimes I've coached in the Super League in this country, which is the top league in this country, and it's different coaching those sort of athletes to even coaching national league, division sort of three and local league, because your role as a coach is completely different. Personally, I actually really enjoy coaching the lower division, three division two volleyball, because you're teaching them the game and some of the aspects of the game that they don't know but you know. Like I said to you at the start, hats off to you both for the energy, the dedication, all the work you've put in and, um, I know I've always kept an eye on your camps and see some amazing pictures and what you do and some of the drills you do and I wanted to ask you I could ask you loads of questions, but I wanted to ask you about some of your favorite coaches you've worked with in your camps.
Speaker 3:Oh my God. So. So this year we've got an American man who's he's been over a few times. He's with the Department of Defense, us Department of Defense. He was. He grew up in a military family so he's been around the world and he's been in, I think, korea and Panama and lots of big, big voice. And he's going to do our camp at the end of June. He's already working on his syllabus on the curriculum.
Speaker 2:The last one was 70 pages long.
Speaker 3:So I would imagine and what I think they do and I'm sure a lot of coaches here do the same thing but what I do like to see is with him is he puts, writes his whole theme of the day, puts everything out, it's that he engages the kids really well. You know, he's very um thoughtful on on his, his coaching and and it's it's nice. It's nice to um, you know, have him um come to coach, but we've also got other coaches as well that I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's another one that you can think of. I can think all of them are really exciting this year. I mean, I'm looking forward to working with Danny Traylor and having him come down from Scotland, because we've known him and he's close to our family and Danny likes to have a beer after the training sessions, and so I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1:That's why you invited him, Bob. I got it. Well, you know that.
Speaker 2:But that's why you've invited him, bob. I got it. Well, you know, uh, but also there there's people like uh, one of the first people you interviewed. I've not worked with him before, but I have admired him from afar as Alex Chinry, uh and uh. The interview you did with him was, I thought, very revealing about a person who's insightful and intelligent about their coaching and I am looking forward to working with Alex. But we've got other people too, like Andre Monar, who's the head coach of the Ireland team. Andre is from Romania. Andre is from Romania, so in his background is that sort of military style Eastern European coaching approach. But he's lived in Ireland long enough so that he's been softened a bit and he knows that you can't that doesn't always work that well on the British Isles, so he's kind of he's able to bring the two together. He's big, big laugh, big, a lot of zillion and a half stories to tell and and really a genuine interest in the, in the youngsters he works with. So there's a bunch of people.
Speaker 1:What I absolutely love about it is the diversity in your coaches. When you look at your website and you know if you I'm sure want to head over and find out more, your coaches, when you look at your website and you know if you I'm sure want to head over and find out more, you can find out more at your website. So do you want to maybe share your website details at vbdccouk? Is that right?
Speaker 2:yes, vbdccouk that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can head over there and have a look at, find out some more about the coaches profiles. But I think you know, for athletes personally, you know and I, I, I personally encourage all my athletes you want to be coached by lots of different people, because you'll learn different things from different people. You'll learn how to do things, how not to do things and, as a coach myself, I think it's really important that you get to work with different coaches as well, to pick up different sort of and share and share hints and tips, and you know that's what this podcast all around really is sharing more in our, in our community and we try to bring coaches in from other countries.
Speaker 2:We've got the, an assistant coach from the hungarian men's team, coming in. We've got uh uh. Who else do we have? We owe um matteinti. He's the head coach at one of the most successful youth clubs in Italy, and these people bring in different attitudes and approaches to their coaching style.
Speaker 3:And I think the coaches enjoy the camaraderie too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the coaches enjoy exchanging with each other.
Speaker 3:And I think that's part of again broadening your coaching experiences and being a better coach is seeing other people on the court and being their assistant or being the head and just kind of collaborating with each other.
Speaker 2:But it's good for the kids too, because volleyball is a global sport and if you can introduce them to some of these different attitudes and approaches, that's going to make their own game much richer.
Speaker 1:No, awesome, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing all about your camps and, like I said head over, I'll put the link into the podcast description to go and check out the VBDC website to find out more about their camps. Look, I can't believe I've already been talking to you for 53 minutes. Um, I could talk to you for hours, you two um just really really briefly, really briefly, um, volleyball in this country it's, it's on a, it's on a curve, it's definitely on it on the way up. Um, we spoke a couple of months ago about this. Just tell me a little bit about your thoughts about the trajectory of volleyball in this country and you know what you think the volleyball in England needs to do to maybe take it to the next level.
Speaker 2:Shall I go first.
Speaker 1:You go first, Bob.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, I think that the biggest hindrance to the growth of volleyball in this country is the lack of suitable venues. There is a huge clubs are fighting with each other over leisure hall space and until some effort I mean a real effort is made to create more venues that are affordable. Clubs don't have not all clubs have a lot of money, but they've all got a legitimate need for venues. Until more venues with proper volleyball equipment are in place, we're going to hit a ceiling that we can't get through. Are in place, we're going to hit a ceiling that we can't get through.
Speaker 2:And that's the duty of the Federation and I know Charlie's working on it that's the responsibility of government organizations to see that the demands for sport and leisure and recreation are being met, for sport and leisure and recreation are being met. And that's also the responsibility of local governments, because they build these leisure centers with our tax money and then the first thing they do is hand it over, outsource it to a management firm that puts in bouncy castles and, uh you know, yeah, well, I'm not that bouncy castles or tumble tots are bad, but they go to things which require little capital investment and have the highest return, and volleyball can't do that.
Speaker 2:but it was our flipping tax money that built the place, and those companies that are doing the management are not paying attention to the communities that they're supposed to be serving, and our MPs should push for the creation of oversight committees which monitor the management of the leisure centers, and sometimes their school facilities too, and make sure that the community is being properly served, having funded the construction of these facilities in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more about venues, and we know that in our own club it's hard to find venues that are affordable. So you heard it here first Bob Pickens for Sport Minister, I think. Yeah, I like that Deb anything you want to add on that?
Speaker 3:I think and this is you know I've been talking to a lot of clubs I'm also I wear multiple hats, like we all do, and so I'm the chair for the club that we sponsor and you know we're all volunteers and I think we have to get past that volunteerism a little bit and I think we need to remunerate our coaches. You know the fees might have to go up to do that, but you know we can't get the commitment of the coaches if it's always a volunteer. If they have some kind of commitment with a monetary amount, it won't be a lot but something to keep them involved in the sport. You know a lot of them do it while their child is involved in it. We need to get them beyond that.
Speaker 2:Well, also to show respect, because I mean they're putting time and talent.
Speaker 3:And I think you know because we have close links to the States as well. You know we and and it's it's a different system over there. You know we and it's a different system over there. You know it's one. A lot of the clubs are owned by hedge funds. Their buildings they own. You know they've got to make a lot of money to pay for those facilities and you know their subscriptions are well, no club in the UK is even close to probably any of the average subscriptions in the United States. You know you're talking $8,000 a year for your membership for a club and then you go to tournaments. You know so you're. You know we're not there. Yet you know a club that asks their members for 300 pounds for membership. You know, you know that's you've got to if you want to have good quality.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that's something that you're going to have to pay for Good. Sport costs good money.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Yeah, no, and I'm happy. I'm sure we're going to pick up this conversation off off this off line, and we'll we'll keep chatting away, but for me, then, I'm going to finish up like we always do, so this will be quite quick fire, but I'm going to ask, deb, this actually. So this is a question that was left to you from the previous guest, which was coach Sam Shenton, who coaches the Newcastle Knights Super League team. So a quick response from you on this one, which is, if you had a one-hour session before your biggest game of the season, how would you divide that hour up?
Speaker 3:game of the season.
Speaker 3:How would you divide that hour up, well, um. Well, I'm thinking about the team I have now that I coach. Yeah, so I would, um, probably do a lot of um, do some drills on serving um, we, we had a quite a big issue with serving this year, um, um and and uh, probably doing a lot of research before I actually did that to make sure I had drills that could replicate some of the situations we had, um and get them into the mindset maybe of of you know where where we fell short in some of those matches with our serving. You know where we fell short in some of those matches with our serving. But, and trying to, I like to not just do just serving to serve. I want to do skills that link with that as well.
Speaker 1:So probably a serve reception is two and attacking and and um court defense. But you're right, yeah, I think most coaches would say serve, pass, that's where volleyball is one serve and pass. Like if you get that bit right, then then yeah. But hey, I'm sure I'd love to be on one of your coaching sessions, deb, and learn from both of you. So, um, maybe we'll sort that out soon, right?
Speaker 1:sounds good so to finish off, then, bit of fun, this or that. I've never done this with a couple, so I'm gonna go bob one question, deb. The next question, um, it's a game of this or that, so I'm gonna ask you some of them are volleyball related questions, some of them are a bit of fun, okay. So first one is to you, bob bob, usa food, american food or english food?
Speaker 2:oh, can you have a mixed platter?
Speaker 1:I know all that bob this, all that uh well, I tell you what I'd.
Speaker 2:I do like my fried shrimp and barbecue.
Speaker 1:So we're going USA. Yeah, okay, deb, which is more technical setting or middle hitting?
Speaker 3:Setting.
Speaker 1:Bob, coaching beginner juniors or coaching more talented juniors? Which one? What's your preference?
Speaker 2:I do like coaching the more talented juniors, especially if I've had an opportunity to work with them when they're younger.
Speaker 1:Deb orange or apple juice.
Speaker 3:Oh, I like orange juice with bits.
Speaker 1:It's got to be with bits, right it has to be with bits. Bob, what's more frustrating? A junior who just gives up or a junior who doesn't listen?
Speaker 2:How come I didn't get the orange juice question. That's a finger. Well, I can't tolerate a giver-upper. I've got a tattoo on my arm that I had put on after I had a stroke. It's non-deficere and it means it's Latin for never give up. So I can't tolerate a giver-upper. A giver-upper.
Speaker 1:Awesome, deb, if you were in charge of volleyball in England, okay, and you could only choose to fund either a junior program really well or a senior program really well, what would you fund?
Speaker 3:Junior program.
Speaker 1:I thought you might say that. And finally, um, this has got to be really quick fire on this one, deb. Do you love to win or hate to lose?
Speaker 3:I love to win bob.
Speaker 1:Love to win or hate love to win. Look, thank you, that's all I can say. I wish I could stay on and chat to you for hours, but maybe we'll get you back for part two sometime, because I think there's more more to unpick, um, and more to to share with our amazing volleyball community. But thank you from me, honestly. I've known you guys for a while and you're just the most yeah, you're just a very, very special couple and very special people. So thank you for everything you've done and, um, thank you for giving up your time well thank you, it's been fun yeah, thanks, luke, for starting the uh the podcast.
Speaker 2:I think that's going to be a great asset for volleyball in this country.
Speaker 1:Thanks, bob, that's really kind. So from me, final words whatever you're doing, remember, keep playing, keep supporting, but most importantly, keep that volleyball spirit alive. I'm luke wiltshire, the host of that volleyball spirit alive. I'm Luke Wiltshire, the host of that Volleyball Guy. Thank you for listening.
