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The Heritage Show: Legacy, London 2012 and the Future of the Game – The Richard Callicott Story (Part 2)
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This is Part Two of The Heritage Show, a special episode of That Volleyball Guy created in partnership with Volleyball England to honour the people, places, and pivotal moments that have shaped the sport in this country.
In this second half of our conversation, I’m once again joined by Volleyball England legend Richard Callicott, picking up from where we left off in Part One.
Richard shares his powerful reflections on being part of London 2012, the impact of the Olympic experience, and the legacy it left behind — not just for volleyball, but for British sport as a whole.
We speak openly about the ongoing funding challenges volleyball faces and the uphill battles that continue behind the scenes to grow and sustain the sport.
Richard also talks about his instrumental role in bringing beach volleyball to the Commonwealth Games, a major achievement that put the sport on a new international stage.
We revisit the historic Sandwell Grass Tournament, which at its height welcomed a record-breaking 420 teams, earning a Guinness World Record and becoming one of the most iconic events in UK volleyball history.
To round things off, Richard shares his thoughts on where the sport is today and his hopes for the future of volleyball in England.
It’s a conversation full of insight, honesty and passion from someone who’s had a lasting impact on the game. I could have talked to Richard for hours — and even then, there’s still more we didn’t cover.
Connecting Through Conversation
That Volleyball Guy Hello. I'm Luke Wiltshire, host of that Volleyball Guy. If you love volleyball as much as me, then you're in the right place. That Volleyball Guy, hello, and welcome to that Volleyball Guy with me, luke Welcher, and thank you for joining us on the Heritage Show again today Exciting.
Speaker 2:This is part two of our conversation with Richard Calicott. If you haven't listened to the first episode and the first part of this special conversation then I would urge you all to do so. Richard, clearly you know, dedicated to our sport, done so much for our sport and I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with Richard, so much that we had to break it down into two parts Not surprising, really, the amount of stuff this man has done for our sport in this country. It feels right that we only allow the time to talk about it. So if you didn't tune into the first episode then, like I said, I would urge you all to go back and listen to that now.
Speaker 2:But in that episode Richard talked to us about his early volleyball career, his role in the AVA, setting up a volleyball in England, his early days and talking about venues and school gyms and his playing days, and then started to talk about his role in the association and taking more of a leadership role within volleyball. So I'm really pleased to welcome Richard back to the show, where we're going to carry on where we left off last time and we're going to talk about the 2012 Olympic Games. If we remember rightly, as we finished the last conversation, richard was talking about the teams and their training venues. So firstly, richard, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2:It's great to have you. It's great to have you back. Like I said, I honestly love talking about volleyball. Anybody that knows me know that I could talk about volleyball for hours, but I think I've met my match.
Speaker 1:I think you can met my match. I think if you care passionately about anything, whatever the subject is you, you tend to want to talk about it, and I'm sure that's what many volleyballers do going to matches from home, from matches and after training and so on. So, yes, it's a great sport to talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think there are many of many of the people in the volleyball community. You cut them open, they bleed volleyball right. They are passionate about it. You know we do it as volunteers. A lot of the, a lot of the sport relies on volunteers and people that run these clubs and coaches, and yeah, um, it's just, it's amazing that in this country, we do have so many dedicated people that have helped grow the sport, and none more than you. So I'm really looking forward to this second part of the conversation. So we let we finished last time talking about 2012 and the Olympics, so let's recap a little bit. We we were talking about the teams getting together, but actually let's take us back a little bit and tell us more about the challenges of getting teams into the olympics in the first place well, once the host has been determined, then it's down to the national olympic and paralympic committees of that country to determine whether they are going to take up their host position.
Speaker 1:Not all countries do. I was absolutely well, very keen to ensure that the British Olympic Association and the British Paralympic Association were going to select our beach indoor volleyball and sitting teams to participate in the games volleyball and sitting teams to participate in the games and that involved a lot of conversations, attending an awful lot of meetings and even putting forward propositions to the national olympic committee to make sure that we got those those in. And I have to say that not everyone in the structure of funding was necessarily as keen. There was a difference of opinion in that. Uk sports attitude had been well, we will only fund you if you're going to win a medal. And from our side we were saying well, actually that's nonsense. What we want is to use the Olympic Games, even if you're not going to win a medal, as a means of projecting that sport into its popularity. I have to say we won the argument but along the way we lost funding. Unless you stop actually using your women's team indoor and your sitting team, then we will stop funding altogether. Wow. And indeed that actually happened. And if it hadn't been for the women's indoor team under Audrey Cooper, where they did sponsored rides and they did fundraising, that women's programme would never have got through to London itself. And the same with the sitting programmes. And it was only thanks to the strength of feeling in the National Olympic Committee and Paralympic Committees that we actually were selected to participate, even though there was never a chance that we were going to win a medal and we'd set our targets accordingly and we'd gone through a number of coaches. So the biggest issue was getting the squads sorted and pulled together and where were they going to train and to do that? Like in all things, there are a lot of very, very good people that made that happen. So Wayne Coyle was our first manager of the British program based in Sheffield. So we used what is now known as the English Institute of Sport under Hallam University there in the Don Valley. That was the base for the indoor programs, the beach program. You will probably know from talking to people like Jeff Jeff Allen that we actually worked really hard to try and get the beach program based at the University of Bournemouth. Yeah, we had meetings there. They didn't see it through. So in the end we ended up in Bath because we thought, well, bath, it's the nearest to get to a beach down on the south coast and that there was some sort of volleyball there and the sitting programs were at Rodin and that was where Ian took the sitting programs and worked on that through Rodin Institute. So it was three different people that made that thing, that programme, those programmes happened and, of course, our national coaches.
Speaker 1:We had a number of full starts. We appointed a guy from Austria sorry, from germany. Um introduced him to the press and media on horse guards parade to be our beach coach. Um offered him the job. He accepted. A week later, back in germany, he declined oh wow.
Speaker 1:Then we appointed a guy from jeff alzina, from california, who came across and we sent our beach programs over to California where they trained. And then we had a Canadian guy who came over, lauren Sawula, who coached the women, and after a while Lauren basically after coaching them for two or three years said look, I don't think this is for me, I think you need a Brit to take you through. So that was when Audrey came in. And of course, with the beach programme we brought in an Australian, matt, and he coached from Bath and in the end that was Morf Bowes took over that programme.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people involved, and one of the things we were determined to do is not just the players benefit from this, but also the coaches had to benefit from it as well, and I think I think we can hold our head up reasonably high and say that a number of British coaches got the opportunity to be involved in that programme, including somebody who is now headlights over in Europe, in Holland and Belgium. Yeah, joel. So yes, I think we did as good a job as we could in terms of creating opportunities for the coaches.
Speaker 1:And remind me Richard, who was the men's coach. Well, there was sort of in the end we used a Dutch coach, harry, and he ended up going over to Morocco. I think he ended up marrying a Polish girl, a player, and they went off to Morocco. Yeah, but he worked his hardest to try and make it happen. And the first thing, one of the hardest things of all of our I would suggest our players found was from being amateur and playing perhaps one match, maybe two matches a week, not at the highest standard. One of the hardest things I gathered from many of our players was how do you become a professional player when you're training every day and all the stuff that comes with training every day at a high density, a high density of operation to stop injuries, and we did get injuries.
Speaker 1:So one of the most, I think, the ambitious thing that we ever did was we took the men's team and again I've got to pay tribute to Wayne Coyle that we looked at an opportunity in the Netherlands and we found out that there was a team that was struggling and probably going to go out of business, brother Martinez and we took over their place in the Dutch league. I signed a contract with the Dutch Volleyball Federation, nivobo, and we. We sent the team over to Holland for a year and they played in the Dutch First Division as GB Martinez, gb Martinez and the the some. We lost some players there who got injured because of the intensity of the program, and Netherlands at that time were a very good side, both men and women. But hey, we made a lot of friends along the way.
Speaker 2:That issue was actually replicated by handball, who did exactly the same, seeing what we had done, and they went to denmark um, and subsequently other countries have done something very similar by putting their teams into a better standard league I just want to, I just want to backtrack a little bit on the the point you made which I've always wondered, like I'm no expert in funding, sport funding, but obviously in the volleyball competition, just talking about, let's just take indoor, for example, you're playing for one, you know there's one medal, whereas you take a sport like cycling or swimming, the amount of medals you can win in a discipline like swimming or cycling, yeah, it's huge, huge right. And so you can understand, I guess, from a bigger picture. But your point around using the olympics to put volleyball on the map, sort of thing to get people playing volleyball, because I, I know, and we'll go on to talk about, um, the actual experience of the games, but I went to watch many of the indoor matches at earl's Court and it was fantastic. You know, we're not going to get volleyball like that in this country again, you know, for, in my opinion, for a very long time.
Speaker 2:Um, and I just wonder, like it is such a shame, isn't it? Because I think someone told me once, and you might, you might be able to tell me if I'm true, but I believe, the Sydney games, uh, 20, what year was that? 2000, 2000, their indoor men's program, I believe they they hadn't competed at olympics before or they hadn't done particularly well. They did. That was their first games because they were host nation and they've gone on to become one of the greatest you know, really strong men's indoor programs. So do you? You know I'm putting you on the spot here, but I guess there's a lot of frustration around the funding and not being fully funded and the pain and the challenge that caused.
Speaker 1:I will say and I'll say it even though I was once chief executive of UK Sport that my predecessors, my successors in the organisation, did us no favours whatsoever as a sport and that the funding that went into volleyball as a sport was unreasonable, unfair and inappropriate when they were giving increases to the sports that you've just described. Now, yes, it is true that those sports have many medals, but then there are some sports that got huge amounts of money going into the late teens of millions when we weren't getting anywhere near that across six teams, which is where UK Sport basically turned around to us and said well, you must stop funding or running two of your programmes or we will pull the plug. That never happened. But, yeah, we had to work really hard.
Speaker 1:Everybody that was associated with us associated with the teams the players, the coaches, the assistant coaches, the physios, the medic teams, everyone that was associated. I mean I couldn't ask them to do more because you know they really did well for us and we did win some matches along the way. We didn't win that many, we were close. We were one of the very youngest teams participating in the Games. For me, the biggest disappointment was I think we could have done better in the beach volleyball. I think that was a big disappointment. But our indoor teams and our Paralympic sitting teams, I'm not sure how much better they could have done. They just lacked a bit of experience and you only get that experience by playing at that level on a consistent basis.
Speaker 2:Um, so I believe the women's. If I'm right, and you probably got a good, the women's team won a game against algeria, was that right?
Speaker 2:yeah, correct, yes, absolutely yeah, and the men and the men's team competed. Right, they competed. They weren't know, don't get me wrong, they're not. You know the teams that they're up against were obviously higher in standard and calibre but they didn't look out of place. I was there at two of the matches, I think, and it was a proud moment to be part of volleyball in this country and watch. You know players that you know. I was talking to Audrey Cooper actually a couple of weeks ago that I actually reffed first reffed a warm-up match for her. She took her ladies team down to Wessex, down to Bournemouth, and they had a bit of a scrimmage match and I went and reffed it for her and she said, like that's what the whole volleyball the community did for the sport is. We all sort of gathered around them. We wanted them to do well, we wanted to, everybody wanted to help them and do what you could, um, and that's what our amazing volleyball community does in this country, I think I think that's a very fair assessment.
Speaker 1:Uh, luke and uh. To see 16 18 volleyball players on bicycles riding from Sheffield down to Westminster Hall, westminster County Hall, in the city of London was astonishing. And they did that off their own bat and they raised money and we all bought T-shirts from them and whatever to raise enough money so that they could continue to train. So those were some of the issues that the powers that be of the day, uh, that were funding us hadn't appreciated and I don't think they ever really got it that all they were interested in was governments tend to want to measure success of a games by medal tables and the media support them in that. So every day, every two or three times a day, perhaps television companies will put up metal tables.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I understand that. I was in that world and I understand that entirely. But the community impact they now call it at social as social impact. So volleyball england are now measured by sport england and uk sport measure on social impact. Well, we were doing that 25 years ago and I don't think we were ever given the credit that we deserved, to be honest, no, no, absolutely right.
Speaker 2:and, like I said, I I mean, I could talk to you for hours about the actual games, but perhaps just give us a few little insights of some of the you know, because I imagine you were there in the centre of it all as it happened. What was it like then, richard? Because you know it might be a long time before we see another games in this country, so tell us about the experience of London 2012.
Speaker 1:experience of London 2012? Well, yes, it was, and I had a role, a formal role of liaison with the International Federation, between the host organising committee and the International Federation. In other words, if there was going to be a problem, my job was to make sure it never became a problem and we never had those sorts of problems. What was interesting is that one of my dearest old friends, brian Stalker, who was my vice chairman at one point when I was chairman of Volleyball England, brian took on the role of volleyball manager, as it were, under somebody else. His job was to make sure the logistics operated and all the volunteers that came in from people that were associated with Volleyball England Board at the time, but others that came in as well they came in and there was an incredible atmosphere of togetherness. You've just referred to it. The atmosphere was brilliant.
Speaker 1:Special moments, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think we had some outstanding individuals and I'm not going to name those individuals that would be invidious, um, but I think to see I will mention one because it was so fantastic I'd been talking to him about it for months and to see one of the best setters that England ever had, richard Dobell, who had the best one in my opinion Barry Swan and Richard Dobell.
Speaker 1:I put up there as the best pair of hands in the England shirt. Richard had knee problems and, having spoken to him about it, he finally agreed that he would become a minimal injury and eligible to compete in the Paralympic Games and he became our setter for the England men's sitting team and to see him there that was for me a special moment. To see him, an england player who played indoor at a very high level and then to become a paralympic medalist and to be well not medalist and paralympic athlete and to see him doing so well. I mean he was outstanding, um, but we had some good players and if we could have kept them together the indoor team, men, women I think we could have gone and done something more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the funding wasn't there so we needed, needed that support, right, you needed that support to continue the legacy and and it was a shame because you know, the games was all about legacy London 12, the legacy of the games. But you know the world needs money, right, you can't really do much if you don't have any money. They can't really continue a legacy without, you know, sufficient funding. So, um, but from all of us in the volleyball community, I will say this like we owe a lot of thanks to, to you and the other people at the time that fought hard.
Speaker 2:Because, you know, like I said, I I went to the games as a, as a spectator, a volleyball fan, and to be able to watch volleyball at that level. And you know, walking down around earl's court, uh, I, I think I went to a poland, brazil pool game and the atmosphere in there, you can't replicate it. It was fantastic, it was just amazing and it really was what, you know, kept me, oh, this is amazing. This sport is, you know, because if you're not, if you hadn't ever seen it at that level, you're, you're going to watch, you know, even the top league division, one super league or whatever it was called at the time like you're not getting crowds like that anywhere.
Speaker 1:It was fantastic well, and, in fact, um, we actually polled far greater numbers than any previous games, both indoor and at beach, and those records still hold in terms of the numbers of people. So it demonstrated that beach volleyball and volleyball actually captured people's imaginations and volleyball actually captured people's imaginations, and all we lacked was some funding to enable us to carry that forward and to develop. And, hey, we've seen a little bit of the legacy that came through the inspiration, with Joaquin and Javier Bello, who now have got a bronze medal and have won FIVB events and are now world ranked. Um, they've come through, having watched what was going on there.
Speaker 2:So I'm a great believer and they're playing on from my conversation with them, richard. They're playing on sand that I believe was used at horse guards parades in their in their you know. So the legacy of the facilities did live on. You know my club. I know my club where I'm based down in Southampton. We had some post padding from the games. We had some balls from 2012. We had some equipment that was used in the games which I believe was distributed amongst clubs that wanted it and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think as a sport and as a governing body, we actually distribute stuff really well and I thought I still think that had we received more generous funding To enable the squads that we pull together to carry on training at the right level, we could be doing even more. But, as you know, competition in volleyball we happen to be in the toughest zone for across the board in Europe than any other confederation and with over 50 nations participating at very high level. I mean, when Poland can attract 80,000 to watch a volleyball match, I mean we can't compete against that because they're full time athletes. And Serbia, who have probably got 100 and something, athletes who are playing in different clubs, in different zones, in different leagues throughout Europe and the rest of the world, leagues throughout Europe and the rest of the world. Well, the sad thing was, when we didn't get any more funding, a lot of our best players thought, hey, we've achieved something we never thought would happen. Where's the future? Well, there's no funding. So they either retired or they gave up.
Speaker 2:And whilst it was sad, you know, it's sad to see that it didn't continue. I think what it did do, though, is allow a group of athletes, you know, the opportunity to go on and some of them did go on following the Olympics to compete professionally abroad and get contracts abroad and make a living out of the sport that they loved, and all those sorts of things. So, yeah, lots to take away, and I mean like we could do a whole episode. Maybe that's another idea we could do a whole episode on 2012 someday one day.
Speaker 2:Um, so talk. Talk to me a little bit then, richard, about life after the games from a bvf perspective. So the games are finished.
Speaker 1:Talk to us, you know well, I think I've just implied it that following the games, you inevitably go for a dip because everybody is so exhausted having put so much into it for such a period of time and yet the game has still got to continue at its domestic level. So I think there was a dip Legacy-wise. You've just explained some of it and I think that was a dip Legacy wise. You've just explained some of it and I think that's very fair. I have to say that maybe claims that the London Olympic Games left a bigger legacy than the reality across the board not just in volleyball, across the board, I think has been exaggerated. I have to be honest and say I don't think there was the legacy that we'd all anticipated and it wasn't through lack of money, but it was lack of policy. It was the policy of determining how, in fact, governing bodies were going to respond and indeed, governing bodies lost funding. So in losing funding, with the best will in the world, how do we get athletes from across the country, of England and from Scotland, and if they applied Wales, because there were Welsh players in the Paralympic squads, how are we going to pull those together and to pay for the facilities that we needed in order for them to train and to pay for a coach to coach them. How can you do that? And and gain credibility? And the reality is we didn't. So there was a lost period of time until such time as, um we were able to put pressure on to uk sport, uh, with some other governing bodies, um, you won't be surprised that I made my, I made the case of volleyball particularly loud at brit Olympic Association meetings, noc meetings and also to UK Sport. But the reality was it wasn't until we were able to get some funding through an alternative programme not the main programme, which was probably about just before the pandemic in order to start pulling together training schedules. And even then we had to make decisions.
Speaker 1:The reality, we ended up having to fund beach volleyball and sitting volleyball. Why didn't we fund indoor volleyball? Well, number one, our funders wouldn't fund it because they said we were too far behind um. So when we used examples like um Slovenia, slovakia and some of the smaller countries that have done remarkably well in Europe, particularly um, that was that didn't uh, that didn't get us anywhere. So, in in the end, we made a policy decision that we would fund beach volleyball and sitting. It's interesting. I've just referred to, joaquin and Javier Bello having done particularly well, but also now we've got a second pair who are doing particularly well. So we've got two men's pairs who are doing really well on the world scene because they're they're able to train, they're getting coaching and they're able to compete on a regular basis at the very highest level. That will make them better yeah um.
Speaker 1:So, yes, we're waiting to see now what's happening. Uh, I haven't got the latest figures, um as to what it is, but I understand from the the current, the new chairman of british volleyball, marco dublos um, that actually there is some funding there and they're able to continue some of the issues that they were and some of the the policies that we were trying to implement some years ago yeah, no, it's, it's just a really incredible journey.
Speaker 2:I think, you know, a lot of people have been involved in volleyball in this country for a long time. Even though they were involved and they saw it, they probably didn't know all the backstory, didn't all the the, the hardship and the fight that had to go on. And, um, yeah, no, I, like I've said to you many a time, I, I really respect all of the people that got it to where it was and I think the sport you know is is better for it. Could it have been better? Absolutely, but not through a lack of trying right?
Speaker 1:so, um, yeah, it's sad, luke, it's sad in my book that the one club who has a professional administrator, um, polonia, um, it's still unique. There is nobody that's being paid full time to run their volleyball club, um, so it's still run. Now don't get me wrong there are other sports in this country that are in a similar position to ourselves. Um, there are some of the the higher profiled sports that are finding life particularly difficult with their funding, so much so that they're struggling. Some sports are finding life really tough. So we try to keep a perspective, a reasonable perspective, whilst trying to be as adventurous and forward-looking as possible with the sport of volleyball in all of its three categories. We haven't yet been tempted to go for the fourth discipline in volleyball, which is snow volleyball yeah, I don't know too much about it hey, it's in Europe.
Speaker 1:It's not really going. I think they might be one or two other countries that are trying it, but it's mostly in those countries where you would expect it to be in Austria, germany, switzerland and Northern Italy and so on. But yes, we've not been tempted to get in there yet, but maybe there will be opportunities. And of course there's also talk about can it become a Paralympic discipline, snow volleyball or maybe even a winter games sport. Those discussions are taking place now between the FIVB and the powers that be in the IOC, but we'll see.
Speaker 2:That's a separate issue Interesting there, right? You actually mentioned there something that I wanted to come on to now then. So, just you know, maybe explain and talk to us through about your involvement and your roles with the FIVB, because that would be really interesting, I think, for the listeners.
Speaker 1:I've never been on the Board of administration, but in the uk the board of administration is the executive board of international volleyball and we do have a brit on that, margaret anne fleming, the chief executive of scottish volleyball. She is on that board. My role has been much more in terms of within the FIVB. I was, I'm, on a small, very small commission called the Ethics Commission. So over the years, every governing body of sport, particularly international federations, are accused from time to time of having people involved in the organization of their sport who is basically either crooked or is guilty of fraud, embezzlement, doing things for themselves rather than the sport. The Ethics Commission of FIVB is there to ensure that there is a standard of integrity that is applied to people that serve, and we now do a spot check and we do a very in-depth study through a big international company who checks out every candidate that sits for a position on a commission or on the board of administration. I'm on that panel that investigates the Ethics Commission and, yeah, I think you know that I'm sure that there will be one or two people who have still escaped the net, um, but I don't think there there are many. I think we have a surprisingly high level of integrity at international volleyball, and the same is true of um paralympic sport.
Speaker 1:I chaired a judicial panel for um world para volley. Yeah, we have a another couple of brits on that, one of whom is gordon neal, who, funnily enough, turned 80 the day before yesterday. And gordon neal was chief executive of disability Sport England at one point, but he basically is the granddaddy for sitting volleyball in this country. He worked in London for a spell. He now lives up in the northeast. He did an enormous amount of getting disability sport established in this country. So I chair the judicial panel for that and we look at things like somebody, because of classification rules, somebody will come in and go through a test and they are determined that they have this disability at that level or whatever, unbeknownst to some of them. They are then assessed in a match situation and guess what? The difference between I can't do this and I can't lift that and whatever, and then being watched in a match and they'll go diving around whatever, means that somewhere along the line they have um falsified the level of their disability. So we then carry out an investigation, we interview them with their legal experts and their coaching staff and whatever, and we make decisions as to what we should do about them and, it has to be said, we play it very fair over here in this country, in the UK, and particularly in England.
Speaker 1:In other countries people don't necessarily play quite as well as we do and we have to ban players. We ban players for a period of time and we warn the Home Federation that's concerned as to their practices and that they need to get their act together and sort things through so that we don't have cheating. It's, in effect, cheating. It's as bad as somebody taking drugs to improve their performance. So that's my role in international volleyball and then I suppose, the one that gave me some of the greatest pleasure, apart from London 2012, was in 2011,.
Speaker 1:The year before London, I went to Kuala Lumpur to a meeting of the Commonwealth Games Federation sports panel and I prepared and presented a whole presentation on why beach volleyball should be included in the Commonwealth games. I obviously succeeded because the sports committee of the CGF recommended to the board of the CGF that beach volleyball be included in future Commonwealth games and we got in. As history will show, we got into cool and gatter in australia in 2018 and it was one of the most successful sports of the games, so much so that cool and gatter is now on an fivb circuit run by australian volleyball and it's one of the circuit locations. And now we obviously had Birmingham where we actually got our first ever bronze medal in a multi-sports event of that standard. So it's a bit sad that we're not going to be in Glasgow, but hey, the rumours are all over the place as to what's going to happen to the Commonwealth Games.
Speaker 1:One rumor, which I have no mechanism of determining whether it's true, have, and what's encouraging is we have 100 percent of the FIVB support in the Commonwealth and what we're trying to do with beach volleyball, because, as a result of doing beach volleyball within the Commonwealth Games and we were running tournaments leading up to it to get qualifiers a lot of countries, I would suggest I don't know the exact number, I think it's somewhere in the region of seven countries are now running fivb course um, beach volleyball events that were not on the circuit before. We had commonwealth games, beach volleyball, uh, and the fivb, to be fair to them, uh, they've been 100% supportive of trying to get us into and supporting the standards of the games and give us an awful lot of support. I'm hoping I haven't given up any ideas yet of um. Can we do something between now and 2030? Can we do another beach volleyball event? Um, somewhere doing something with someone? So we'll see where that goes.
Speaker 2:So really, what you're saying there is, you're the man responsible for the beach volleyball being played, being taken part in the Commonwealth Games. So without you going to that presentation, the Bello brothers wouldn't have even had a chance to compete, and the other teams for Englandland so, yeah, so amazing story. See, richard, I I had no idea that's what I mean. I could talk to you for hours and I still think you'd surprise me of lots of other stories and things you've done over the years well, but one of the lovely moments in um preparing for 2018, all this was being done through the internet.
Speaker 1:We did a qualifier in Cyprus for 2018. I persuaded an African country to do an African host. We did an event in the Caribbean using the Caribbean beach circuit as the qualifier, and the same with Birmingham. We actually I persuaded Ghana to host an event for Africa and they got 12 countries present, which is phenomenal. And we did another qualifier up in Edinburgh and, yeah, I mean it's lovely to see things happening and progress being made. And I mean there we almost had Northern Ireland qualify. They were so close in the men's event to qualifying for the Commonwealth Games and that would have been even better. And I'm going over to Belfast in two, three weeks' time of Belfast in two, three weeks' time, where a new beach volleyball court are being opened and they're going to be called the Paddy Murphy Beach Volleyball Courts after Paddy Murphy, one of my dear old friends who has kept beach volleyball and volleyball going in Northern Ireland for decades. So that's a nice compliment and tribute to him. Awesome, look, richard. Nice compliment and tribute to him.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Look, richard, it's already been 40 minutes. This is what I mean. We need part three, part four, part five. We could just no, don't apologize, we could do a whole series. It wouldn't be fair to have this conversation and not talk about Sandwell Grass Tournament. So maybe for the listeners, tell us a little bit about you know where that even came from, the success of the tournament you know, and what is at its peak.
Speaker 1:tell us about the tournament and how you, because you are the you know founder of the tournament, tell us about it well, I think I mentioned in part one that, um, in the days when we started the volleyball in this country and we were starting to structure it, there were no sports halls. Yeah, there was a, there was a, there weren't any. But by then I'd already been bitten by the bug, the volleyball bug and I found another team and we ran an event and it was in the days of what we called Worley. Worley was smithic, um, and West Bromwich weren't in the picture. Then it was the county borough of Worley, um, and in there there was a, a pal of mine who was working in the recreation department, and I said, hey, I'd like to run a volleyball event. He said, yeah, you can use Harry Mitchell Recreation Center, which is in Smethwick, still stands and was an old army drill hall, and we managed to find some posts, freestanding posts, with lots of weights on the base, and managed to get some tension on it and so on, and it was two teams, 1969. And that was the start and it went all right. You know, I mean we had a bit of fun. So the following year we decided, well, no, this isn't going to work. I mean we can't have any more teams in. So we took it to Hadley Stadium, which is also in Smethwick. Hadley Stadium was an athletics track and we did it inside the athletics track on the grass, and we gradually built it. Gradually, teams started to understand and we got to the point where teams were coming in from outside of the West Midlands and that meant more teams. So it gradually grew and we had a few more teams and I think the most we got to was probably around 24, 26 teams at Hadley Stadium.
Speaker 1:And then in 1974, local government reorganised in this country, local government reorganized in this country and the Metropolitan Borough of Sandwell was formed, which merged together the county borough of Worley with West Bromwich and West Bromwich and Worley became one. So by then I'd been teaching in Smedwick for a while and I went and I got to know the politician, the local politician, the councillor who was chairman of the recreation committee, and I said to to jim, jim, um, I'm going to move the salmo volleyball, the woolly volleyball tournament. We're going to move it to where can I put it? And he said, well, take it up to um, take it up to King George's playing fields. I said where's that? He said it's in West Bromwich. Okay, right, by the side of Junction 1. Okay, so we took it up there and we had a look around and decided yeah, so we became the first event sporting event to take the name of Sandwell in the history of Sandwell. So we became the Sandwell Volleyball Tournament in 2074. And we marked out courts and over the years it grew and grew and grew until we got into the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest volleyball tournament in Europe, into the Guinness Book of Records as the biggest volleyball tournament in Europe.
Speaker 1:And at the peak I think we were at our very peak we had 420 teams playing and we were playing on 85 courts simultaneously. And we would have I would by now I'd also got. I'd also founded a rugby club, which was another story, but Worley Rugby Club was in existence and I persuaded at least a dozen of Worley Rugby Club mates to come up, along with friends and teachers I knew, and they became court managers and did all the different jobs that you would need, and we ran it on a Saturday and a Sunday. At its peak we had 17 divisions running to enable that. There were different standards and we got to know well enough the people that were entering that when they said, oh yeah, well, we'd like to enter Division 5. And you think, hang on, this is a Division 1 team. They're after pot hunting. So we started to sort of, we reserved the right to, so 17 divisions and we ran eight divisions at children's age groups, from under 18s down to under 16s. I think we even went at one year down to under 14s.
Speaker 1:Um, so we got to the guinness book of records and then, um, because I knew the president of the FIVB was in England for an FIVB board meeting and the late Peter Wardale who was then on the board, we persuaded Ruben Acosta, the then president, to come and open the Samwell Volleyball Tournament. Oh, he was going to come to Birmingham to open the Samwell Volleyball Tournament. Well, we always started with a whistle at 10 o'clock on the Saturday morning, 10 o'clock came, there was no president of FIVB. So an old pal of mine, an American, mike O'Hara, who was a big noise in the development and the establishment of beach volleyball worldwide, not least in california, um, happened to be with me. I'd met him when we were doing the olympic bid.
Speaker 1:So 1985, 86, we were beginning to get to our peak. I said, mike, you know you're gonna have to open the tournament. He said, well, ruben's coming, I said well, he's not here. Um, I'm sorry, we've got 420 teams out there we had, and of course, all the teams most of the teams were camping and down in the other part of the valley. So Mike opened the tournament and as he opened it he said get your. You know, roll it up, head up, head up, go. And at that point we just saw Ruben Acosta walking across the field. It was 10 minutes late and I had to explain to him that. Mr President, I know you wouldn't have wanted me to hold up 85 courts and 420 teams. You would have wanted me to get started on time, wouldn't you? And of course he doesn't know where he can say no, he started it and yes, I mean.
Speaker 1:The interesting thing is that the top team was the Division of Honour. We called it and I've got trophies still in my office here above me from the Division of Honour and the two teams that were the well, there was Spar Kelly, there was Liverpool, who were outstanding. Those two were two of the outstanding teams of the day. And there's people from Liverpool and Preston are still around in volleyball this day and I still get messages from them every now and again saying are you going to bring sandwall back. But the reality was, we had people would come, we would. We had it sponsored one year by uh well, by a number of years by a coventry engineering company. Don't ask me how I got to know them it was through a power of a friend, of a friend, but it was Multi-Screw Parts Coventry Limited and the guy there, dave and Bob. They used to make my posts.
Speaker 1:So we'd make the post with a base. And that was the first time we started saying, right, let's have a lug on the side of the post and put a rope through it, like you would with a tent, and hammer it down. And that created the tension. And you put a piece of rope around those two ropes and pull it down and that gave you the tension on the net and that was the first time that that had happened. So we had 85 sets of posts and nets which we bought through Volleyball England at that time and the volley shop that was running. Then we did a deal with Ascot Sporting Goods. We had Mikasa as one of our sponsors and we had all sorts of different organisations coming in, including Sportset would come and Volleyball England would come and whatever, and we'd have a tent and you could go and have a full English breakfast in the big tent at the side there. And it was wonderful.
Speaker 2:It was wonderful, Bringing the whole volleyball community together. I'm going to ask you a question that I haven't prepped you for, so putting you on the spot. But out of how many years you did it, how many years was it cancelled due to weather? But how many of the year out of the how many years you did it any? How many years was it cancelled due to weather?
Speaker 1:uh, it was never cancelled, yeah, because of weather, and it was always in the first full weekend of july and one year raf um pilots came in their team and they would bring across Kuwait pilots and so on, and we'd get teams coming over from the States and we get teams coming in from Europe and the guys that were in the pilots they would go up in the air and they do record checks and I don't know whether this is going to help anyone, but they all they came back to me and they gave me the report and they said richard, the first weekend of july has the highest incidence of good weather of any weekend in the calendar. Over however many years they've done it. So we were always there, we had rain and people learned to play in their socks and take their shoes off. Nowadays, beach volleyball has taken over to some extent from grass volleyball, but what the grass volleyball did is 420 teams if you take it as eight roughly per team.
Speaker 1:We had over 3,500, half to four thousand players there camping. Those that didn't like camping would stay in the local hotels. Yeah, get in um. I had tents galore for people filling in this and people filling in that, and then on the sunday we had the playoffs and for those teams that came that were already knocked out of the formal competition because they they weren't qualified through first or second, we used to run an alternative structure for friendlies. So people would get. They. Probably people will tell, tell you or tell me.
Speaker 2:Most teams probably got five or six matches over the weekend or tell me most teams probably got five or six matches over the weekend. Yeah, it's one of my um, because obviously the tournament's not running now, right. So, um, it's one of my sort of, because I've been involved in volleyball since 2007 2006 I think and I I always hear people that I know who are older, wiser than me, that talk Sandwell. Such memories and fondness, and you know you can't be replicated. Obviously there are other big tournaments. Whitfield, we know, is a huge volleyball tournament and continues to go, but, like you, probably without knowing it, you know, volleyball for me has always been a huge part of my life and my friends, relationships, all those sorts of things, and I wonder how many I'm not asking you to know this, by the way I wonder how many people that tournament has either connected friendships, relationships that have gone on and have got a Sunwell Volleyball Tournament to thank for their, for their sort of connections. Mad, when you think of it like that.
Speaker 1:Hopefully many. I mean, I suppose one of the nicest stories was early on. There was a young player playing for the women's team from Birmingham University and there was a young man playing for Wombourne, amsdale, and they met at the tournament because it was a mixed event. Um, they got married. Um, I'm godfather to their son, eldest son, and Catherine Tony Brewer went on to become managers of the England junior men's team. So, uh, and they live now about two miles away from me because I live over that side now, whereas at the time I didn't. But it's yeah, nice stories like that, and lots of structures, and I mean, and as you well know, david Gunter, who I was fortunate enough to play with as well as coach Dave, would tell you a far more accurate picture of what was going on in the tents and in the pubs and wherever else, than I could possibly share in something like this, luke.
Speaker 2:Just phenomenal. I mean, yeah, and so the last Sandwell tournament was what year?
Speaker 1:2019. I mean it was the problem was, I got the job at UK Sport as chief exec and one of the things that you try not to do is to show your personal influence or your personal interests, because you're there to represent all sport. Yeah, yeah, so we reached a peak of 420 teams. I got the job in 1999 at UK Sport and by that time I'm afraid there were a lot of local politics and local government was deciding whether they wanted to fund this and fund that, taking money out of one person, putting it somewhere else, so it it killed the tournament off. After I left uk sport, I brought the tournament back again and we ran it up until 2000. Well, we brought it back around 2006, something like that, but it never had the same cachet. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean the most I think we had. We ran it for about another eight years, nine years. The most teams we had, I think, was something like 35 to 40 teams and it was only a one-day event and it worked really well. I really enjoyed it. But then came the pandemic, yeah, and that killed it. Um, and I've been I mean charlie charlie ford at volleyball england and I have discussed it. Um, I'm not getting any younger and the idea that I'm going to put together a tournament of 420 teams isn't going to happen, because I don't think volleyballers these days necessarily want to play grass volleyball. I think it was.
Speaker 2:It was of its time and sometimes things are best left and remembered for what they were and I'm sure that there'll be, you know, rebirth itself again in the future, in a different format or a different place, I think you know. I bet you've got some amazing pictures and um memorabilia and stickers which you've already showed me, which I know for the listeners might not be able to see, but you know, that's that's uh 2000, some of the brochures.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah sorry, yeah sorry, I could go on, but I'm not going to.
Speaker 2:No, no, you're fine. Maybe, like I said, we could do a feature episodes on Sandwell and all the other things. But this conversation and, Richard, like I said, I'm thoroughly, thoroughly enjoying the chat Talk to me about. Obviously now you're still the honorary president for Volleyball England, Yep, and I know you're sort of still involved, but not as actively involved as maybe before. What are your stances and what's your opinion on volleyball in England now?
Speaker 1:I think there are strengths and there are weaknesses. I think if we look at the Paralympic discipline of sitting volleyball, I know that there's a new group that's been formed from the leading personalities in sitting volleyball who are trying to find a new structure to go forward on sitting volleyball both for men and women. And that's needed because I think we could still get success in the Paralympic Games did because I think we could still get success in the Paralympic Games. On beach volleyball. I think the legacy of London did live on and the legacy of Birmingham is living on with the possibility. Now we've now got beach volleyball courts in Birmingham as well as all over London and they're up in Staffordshire at Kiwi University and so on. There's still a lot of work to be done on that, even to the extent of perhaps a covered beach volleyball training courts in Birmingham. That's still a possibility. And for volleyball itself, I get the impression.
Speaker 1:I'm president of Stourbridge Volleyball Club, which is our local club, and we've got over 100 members and we run teams. And then Teton Hall, cleabury, mortimer and Stourbridge come together with their best players and they form Black Country Volleyball, come together with their best players and they form black country volleyball. Yeah, so in this part of the world, um pete bragg and and um a number of other people um make that happen and and it's alive and well and I I get the feeling that actually volleyball is on the up. I think that there are a lot of good people coming through. I think that there are a lot of good administrators coming through, because that's crucial. I think that the idea that a club is based in the community is exemplary and I think that's necessary.
Speaker 1:The big issue that's holding back, I think, is the cost of hiring halls and the question of every time you play a match and you want a registered referee, um got the cost of the referee along with the sports hall, and that can be quite difficult for a number of clubs. But I think the general direction of the of the sport is going in the right direction. I wish we would get more media coverage, but I think that Volleyball England are putting out far more press releases and far more social impact and social media stuff than they've ever done, and I welcome that because I think that will have a huge impact. One little, maybe a final comment it was never proven, but there was a time when, following the london 2012 olympic games. The number of people playing volleyball in east london meant that volleyball was the number one sport in that part of the country. Now east london's a big place yeah, east london, I'm not talking just about a little borough, I'm talking about the whole of east london's a big place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, east london, I'm not talking just about a little borough, I'm talking about the whole of east london yeah, um and one of the things we've got to recognize is that a lot of people that have come to this country or have second generation come from a history of where volleyball has been very big, yeah, so um people that come from a history of where volleyball has been very big.
Speaker 1:So people that come from Eastern Europe, for example, volleyball is huge. People that come from other countries in Western Europe, the sport is huge. If they come and stay in this country, whether they're training, whether they're living, whether they're settling, whatever they're doing, they're bringing a whole new rationale behind this culture of the sport and I think that's a really good thing for us because, I mean, the sport will progress and and grow, and I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm confident that we've got a bright future no, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, you're right, you you really good, really good comments and opinions, which it's not a shock. You've been around the sport forever, so who who better to know? You know the direction and and the feeling of it. I mean, you're right. I personally my opinion I do think we need to do more together. That's, you know, one of the reasons why I started the podcast. Um, I do think there's pockets of pockets of stuff that happens and we've got a bit of a fear of sharing some things sometimes. And I think, with resources and, like you said, cost, and you know costs to play our sport, when you come together and work closer together as clubs, then you're probably going to have better results and provide volleyball to more people if you can work closer.
Speaker 2:Talking in my region, for example, there used to be there aren't now, but there used to be there aren't now, but they used to be five or six national league clubs all competing within a 15, 20 mile radius and it sort of sounds great, but at the same time it was stifling because there was, there was too many clubs at the same time. Now we're now we're down to one or two, so I think it's going to go through these sort of, like you said, peaks and troughs, but I agree, I think it's on the on the way up. I think the work that the social media team are doing will help get us some more media coverage, and you know they produce and put out some amazing content. Now which looks, you know. All we need is a crowd of thousands of people behind the players to sell it a little bit more.
Speaker 1:You're absolutely right, and and the only way you're going to do that is to put events in front of people that they can come and watch, that they can come and see. I mean going back to the sandwall days for the final of the division of honor men particularly. We would have 12 to 1500 people sat on the grass banks to watch that final, and we're talking 30 years ago. So, admittedly, it was all volleyballers and their families. But I think the event strategy that England are trying to create, or have created and are trying to develop, is crucial.
Speaker 1:I'm a great believer in events and I think that we need events and who knows where England will go? I just hope that there will be some positivity and some vision in terms of that event. But of course, they can be quite expensive to put on. So, hey, I think an awful lot can can be done, and there are a lot of people in volleyball today who have a great deal of experience um of how to put on an event and without wasting an awful lot of money, which otherwise um makes it more difficult to to follow on from richard, look, I, yeah, I want to.
Speaker 2:I just want to keep talking to you, I want to press stop record and then we can just keep chatting for hours. But yeah, from all of us, from the whole volleyball community, I just want to say a huge thank you for everything you've done, for everything you continue to do. You know, you're someone who, from our conversation, you go into rooms and you manage to influence and get stuff done, and that's a skill, that's a huge skill that not many people have, and I think our sport wouldn't be the sport it is without you know, you and other people that helped form the sports the way it is now. So so, from me to you, thank you ever so much for everything you've done and for all of the volleyball community. Just, yeah, a huge, a huge appreciation bless you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that, luke, and congratulations on uh, the heritage show and um, that volleyball man and um keep up the good work and um, hey, let's. Let's hope we can meet up soon in person great?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely so, richard. So thank you ever so much for your time. Like you said, um, if you haven't done so already, then I'd urge you all to go back and listen to the first part of this conversation all together, because just some amazing insight from a real gentleman. So, from me, luke Wiltshire, the host of that Volleyball Guy, remember, whatever you're doing, keep playing, keep supporting, but, most importantly, keep that volleyball spirit alive. I'm Luke Wiltshire, the host of that Volleyball Guy. Thank you for listening. That Volleyball Guy.
