The Publishing Performance Show

Russell Nohelty - Why Your First Book Launch Should Be on Kickstarter

• Teddy Smith • Episode 64

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Russell Nohelty is a USA Today bestselling author who has successfully navigated both fiction and non-fiction publishing. Starting his career with aspirations in filmmaking, he transitioned to comics and eventually found his way to self-publishing. As the co-founder of Writer MBA, he helps authors build sustainable careers through innovative marketing strategies and business approaches. His expertise spans from successful Kickstarter campaigns to building author ecosystems.

In this episode:

  • The evolution from filmmaking to writing comics and books
  • How to effectively use Kickstarter as a publishing platform
  • Understanding value proposition in book marketing
  • The challenges of selling fiction vs. non-fiction
  • Strategies for running successful crowdfunding campaigns
  • Building an author ecosystem across multiple platforms
  • The importance of networking and relationship building in publishing
  • Creating sustainable author careers through diverse income streams


Resources mentioned:


Book Recommendations:


Connect with Russell:


Connect with Teddy Smith:



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[00:00:00] Teddy Smith: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Publishing Informant show. I'm here today with USA Today bestselling author Russell Nolte. So thanks for joining the show today, Russell. Thanks for having me. So you've done a lot of things in the authoring world. But could you tell me first, let's go through how you got started as being a writer in the first place.

[00:00:24] Russell Nohelty: sure. So I wanted to direct movies. I went to school, for journalism in Maryland, and then I spent a few months. Working on Capitol Hill and I decided I wanted to make my own stuff. and so I started, being like a DP on projects and that showed me, Oh my God, no one knows how to write these things.

[00:00:41] Then I started writing my projects and I was like, Oh my God, I don't know how to write these things either. Like these are but my plan was we were going to produce a bunch of low quality, like low time intensity movies. and then we would use those to get funding for eventually more and more successful movies and then eventually we'd be making like the kind of movies that we wanted to make.

[00:01:03] And it's a very popular format in movies and it's just as bad every time someone says it. we fell into the classic problem, which is, when you make a movie needs to be edited and so we made the movie real quick. I did my part real quick and the editing took 7 years. During those seven years, I moved to Los Angeles, I got a manager, So I sat in a lot of meetings, kept saying, I don't have my thing yet, like, it's coming, until the meetings kind of dried up, And my manager was like, You ever thought about making comics?

[00:01:33] I just read a bunch of comics, hadn't read one since the 90s, and, kind of fell in love with it, it made complete visual sense to me. Started making comics, and then those take a lot of money and time, intensity, but they don't take time intensity on the writing part, you kind of write, send it off, and then like wait for stuff to come.

[00:01:53] And so during that time I was like, You can probably write books. And then I started writing books. it took a bunch of the movie scripts that I had written and TV scripts, started writing books and comics and all sorts of stuff for them and then slowly learned kind of the book writing process and realized that I could write 10 books for every comic that I did and met a friend in 2017 who kind of showed me what was possible independent publishing and like self publishing on Kindle and such and I kind of went all in on books.

[00:02:24] And I wrote all these things and then wrote a bunch of nonfiction because people kept asking me questions about my fiction and how to do it. And I got sick. I answered them. And so I kept writing books to answer their questions and courses to answer their questions and then doing services that answer their questions until just like.

[00:02:45] Eventually, I ended up selling my the rights to my nonfiction to Monica and just kind of, like, pushing that out in my great, like, 2020 pandemic clear out. Then, she did this, she put the books in her book sale supercharge, a lot of my other books, we did this Kickstarter book, that became successful, and we built a company on that and off of that, and it's kind of been juggling fiction and nonfiction since, but it's, Weird because I kind of became successful in fiction and then like I became successful again in a whole nother industry in nonfiction So like half of people think that I'm a comic book writer Who does nonfiction on the side and another half think that I'm a nonfiction writer who doesn't do much fiction And I'm like 90 percent of what I've done is fiction and probably now like 80 percent of the money I've made in fiction but like All of the things that I talk on and train on are things that, like, I learned in fiction and made fiction selling work.

[00:03:47] It just so happens that a lot of the things that work in fiction are things I modified from other industries, which is kind of how I learned how to do most of the things. I would find something that worked in another industry and be like, I wonder how I can make this work in fiction. And about 90 percent of those didn't work, and like, 1 of 10 did, and I kind of just built a stack of stuff that worked, across the board, or worked for fiction in one way and non fiction in another way, and yeah, that's a long rambling answer of like, where I started to where I am, but like, it was a lot of plugging needs, and holes, and like, plugging, like, people would ask me, My first part of my career was like trying to figure stuff out and people were like, I'm trying to figure stuff out.

[00:04:35] And I would like, be like, go away. I'm writing books. And then they would keep asking me to make money, like give me money to do things. So I would keep doing those things. But I'd be like, I'm going to do this and then go away so I can write books. But every time I like opened the floodgates, like I would end up doing more nonfiction and, but to get to fiction, but like, and then it ended up when I, Monica and me started writer MBA, it was like, well, I guess I have to like commit to nonfiction in a pretty heavy way because.

[00:05:08] Like now i'm half a company and so I have been doing more non fiction than fiction in the last couple of years Or at least becoming doing more and more launches with non fiction than fiction simply because like I feel guilty when I don't do stuff for writer mba because I'm like, I made a commitment to Monica to, like, make this company work.

[00:05:30] And I feel like I owe it to her to spend most of my time making that company work instead of writing fiction. 

[00:05:38] Teddy Smith: So Monica is your business partner for the Writer's MBA. Is that right? Correct. So just now you mentioned that, you took some of the things that are working for fiction and then apply them to nonfiction.

[00:05:48] Are you talking about marketing tactics or is it something else you're talking about? 

[00:05:52] Russell Nohelty: Storytelling. So like a lot of stuff for like storytelling. fiction works really well in non fiction. A lot of things in marketing, non fiction works in fiction, but it's not, like, Monica calls this the novelist's dilemma.

[00:06:06] There's just like a money problem in fiction. It's like, no matter how much fiction you have, you can only sell it for like, maybe 10. An ebook like you can't sell the special edition issue where you can now sell a book for 80 kind of fixes that but like a lot of the costs are like 30 to produce that book to make 80 so yes, you are making a lot more on the special edition side now, but in general, it's just very, very hard to make more than 10 profit.

[00:06:39] A book, whereas for nonfiction, you can take that and, you can make like a course and a podcast and all of these things that cost and also cost just a lot more money to make fiction presentable. You know, like you can make a course and just like screen share your thing and like it can cost you 3 and like the minute that you're done with that.

[00:07:04] It's over, and you can charge a thousand dollars for it. Compared to fiction, where it's like, well, in order to make that saleable, yes, you can do it on Patreon, maybe, but like, after that, it's like, you need to send it to an editor, you need to like, get it gussied up, like, you have to get it into a finished state, in a way that you don't have to for non fiction, so like, you have both a dilemma of, price elasticity, but you also have a dilemma of finished, like the amount of work you have to do to get a finished product.

[00:07:33] And I mean, the worst products to sell are low margin, low cost, high competition, and that is 3 for 3 for books. So, um, a lot of people make fun of people who sell books saying like, you know, Oh, you're just trying to sell fiction, but like, it's actually the way harder. Sales process like it's way harder to sell a product that nobody needs and as much as I love all of your books Nobody needs them like they don't need like no one has a pain point saying I wish I had a Jane on another Jane Austen Retelling in my life so that I can eat next week But so it's like in nonfiction you can say look it doesn't matter if you like me.

[00:08:15] It doesn't matter if like I write well, what matters is if you need to eat, I can teach you how to eat. If you need a 401k, like, if you believe that, I can bring you to the transformation you want, then, like, give me money. And, like, It is way better, easier to do that when, like, people, you like somebody, but, like, it's unnecessary to the process.

[00:08:38] Like, I read tons of nonfiction, and they are all garbage. Almost 100 percent of them are terribly written books that, like, that, like, I regret reading. But, they do give me the thing that I needed. Which is, like, the three bullet points that, like, made reading it worthwhile. Compared to, like, Fiction, where like the reading is point, like the, escape, like the slowing down, like the invite, like it's of just a different experience.

[00:09:08] I call it soul resonance selling as far as pain point selling. And so all of those things mean like fiction is actually one of the hardest things to sell ever. As fiction books, especially because, like, very few people value books. you're going into a market that, you can't charge much, that there's an infinite supply, that you're competing against every single human that's ever come before.

[00:09:30] and like, you can't charge more than 10, really, uh, and expect to get a sale. And like, very few people value the thing that you're selling, and like, you're competing with every book that ever existed. so like, it's just very hard, and it's not impossible, but like, I wish people would better appreciate how hard it is to sell.

[00:09:54] Like books, like fiction books, because, like, especially at a time of, like, high upheaval where, like, money is tight, like, the things that we like and don't need are the first things to go. 

[00:10:09] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Definitely. Oh, yeah, I totally see what you're saying. I was chatting to Dakota Krauts just really recently about this very problem, but he kind of gets around it because his business is very focused on one particular niche, which is that like gaming let sort of niche.

[00:10:26] So I guess that could be a way around if you are focusing on one niche, you kind of Can build up your reputation in the industry so you can build up the readership makes it slightly easier to to sell the books because I know what 

[00:10:37] Russell Nohelty: you're, I mean, that's a very grassland strategy from our author ecosystems, but like, so people make a hierarchy.

[00:10:46] And like, if you're number one, you are the least likely to be cut from that hierarchy when people need to cut a thing, and the first thing that you buy. So, like, if you can find a, like, lit RPG, or whatever your niche is, if you can be, like, the one person in that niche, Maybe the two or the three person.

[00:11:07] Then like, when someone has to cut, they're going to start at whatever their wants at. They're like, man, I don't know how much I like this thing. Like, and they're going to work their way upwards, and they're going to keep the things that are at the top first. It's the same thing with Kickstarter. Like, one of the big problems with Kickstarter is like, People have 85 and they used to put 85 across 20 projects.

[00:11:29] Well, now they're putting it across one project because every project is like a 100 cost. So, like, people are finding less books and they are having to be like the one of one to more and more and more people. But yes, like dominating a niche. But like, that is another thing that like, if you read category pirates or any other thing, like dominating a niche is like a thing from nonfiction, it just so happens to also work in fiction the same way because humans are humans.

[00:11:56] Yeah. It turns out humans are humans. And like most things that they buy, they will buy the same way. 

[00:12:02] Teddy Smith: Yep, that makes sense. Now, you just touched on Kickstarter just then. I know you've used Kickstarter really successfully and you, you know, you've even written a book. You've literally written the book on how to sell your books on Kickstarter.

[00:12:14] So could you give us a bit of an intro to how Kickstarter works for authors and also tell us about your first experiences with it? 

[00:12:22] Russell Nohelty: Sure. So my first experiences with crowdfunding were actually on this platform called Indiegogo. Oh yeah. Two failed campaigns that made, I think like 1, 500 total. My first Kickstarter was a book called Ichabod Jones Monster Hunter.

[00:12:35] It made 5, was more money than I'd ever made in one month selling my own work, ever. And it was the first time I was like, oh. Oh, I can do this thing that is possible to do, like it is possible to actually make money doing this thing. 

[00:12:52] Teddy Smith: Sorry. Just to interrupt you. That was a fiction book. It was 

[00:12:55] Russell Nohelty: a comic book.

[00:12:56] I was first, first in our graphic novel series. So almost all of my books until the kick, the Kickstarter book or fiction on Kickstarter. So I've made something like 400, 000 on Kickstarter before I ever made like 1 nonfiction on Kickstarter. So, Kickstarter is a time based, crowdfunding platform where you are where you are putting something new into the world, whether it is a brand new project or a new spin on an old project and people can then pledge support for to get a certain number of rewards.

[00:13:32] The time based one, I think, is the most important thing when it comes to Kickstarter, when it comes to crowdfunding, because you're trying to make a thing that would not happen, happen. And so you're trying to coordinate a crowd to, like, it's very funny because, like, if you just look at how nonfiction works, like, this is how all Like all things are like, we're doing a new cohort of X.

[00:13:57] Like we got to this, like this thing's live for only two days. So it's like, they're using the scarcity trigger very well in crowdfunding to like make these special editions and other things happen. It's also a way where you get to support the creator instead of fully, instead of only supporting them, like.

[00:14:16] Somewhere between 35 and 70 percent like on a retailer in general what happens is people are doing special edition campaigns or like old editions coming back or Or like, new first in series. We think that you should be putting every series in Kickstarter first and then, like, moving it through the rest of your pipeline.

[00:14:37] Maybe even putting in Substack before that if you're building your book or another, like, subscription platform before that. But, Kickstarter should be, like, the first stop on your publishing journey. We are not the first people to say that. Dean Wesley Smith is the coined that coined that thing.

[00:14:52] yeah. and then, you know, you're creating a sales page and rewards and you're trying to figure out like what things people want and then building excitement for the the launch so that you make the most amount of money in a finite amount of time. 

[00:15:07] Teddy Smith: Right. Okay. I've, I've seen a lot of Kickstarters like not around books as well and often say if you invest 50 or 100 or whatever amount you often get an extra freebie.

[00:15:17] Now, sometimes it's something a bit crap like a baseball cap or something, but sometimes it's something quite cool. Is that like a tactic you've used to try and encourage people to invest a bit more money? 

[00:15:27] Russell Nohelty: Sure, I mean, or just to not un pledge. One of the biggest things on Kickstarter is to not have people cancel their pledge.

[00:15:34] Right. But yeah, I mean, you have a, tiered reward system where the more you pay, the more you get. So, like again, just like any other sales based thing, SAS product, like you have a minimum, a medium and like a best. And like, you're trying to get people to move from like minimum to best through the course of the campaign.

[00:15:57] So, there are, several different reward tiers that you can offer, but from like digital to physical to. special thanks and more and more like, expansive goals as you get higher and higher and then you have weekly rewards, daily rewards, flash rewards that you can give over time for people who back and then stretch goals, which allow allow people to unlock things throughout the course of your campaign, depending on how much money you raise.

[00:16:28] The stretch goals are like, yeah. Usually most people get them or at least like the people that get the print get them the print edition get them but I Generally prefer weekly goals, which are if you back by this week you get these additional perks if you back this other week You get these additional perks and then they compound the earlier that you get The problem is with those weekly goals or daily goals or any of those things But the time you get to the end of your campaign you have like The people that back the last don't really have a huge incentive to come.

[00:17:01] So then you are abusing like stretch goals so that those people then have a reason to back because they don't have more. So you're rewarding people who are backing the earliest, even though no one gets deducted any money deducted by the end. So yeah, I mean, it's It's always a, a balance between how many SKUs you want to deliver, and how many and how much it takes to, to get someone over the edge.

[00:17:29] So in my last campaign we did a special edition hardcover for a short story collection, and not many people were backing for the first couple of days. And I realized that I hadn't done our early bird perks, which is usually, like, a collection of books that I that I give, people that back early, so they're usually ebooks, and I hadn't announced them, I hadn't said anything about them, and, like, I was like, man, this is, pulling teeth, what is going on here?

[00:17:58] Well, like, I finally put together, like, a bundle of books, and, like, suddenly, everyone was backing. So like, often times, it's like, you need to incre you have two things that you can do, really. You can lower price, or you can increase, like, value, when you're doing a campaign. So it's like, it's very hard to decrease price when someone has paid for it.

[00:18:24] But like, you can do things like an early bird. Like price of like 5 off or something like that. And then, but like, you can always add value by like adding more books or like adding more rewards or just making it more valuable to buy. And eventually you'll find that equilibrium where like. Oh, someone finally believes it's worth 25 or 10 or 1, like whatever the number is, like, once you believe that my work has value, now we're just negotiating how much value that is, but like, before that, you have not agreed that my work has any value.

[00:19:04] Like, if you have not bought anything for me ever, or spent any time with me ever, if this is the first time you're hearing of me, uh, you do not believe my work has any value. And that's okay, like, first, I have to convince you that, like, It's I'm a valuable human. Part of doing that is like, Hey, Teddy thinks I've got something valuable to say he may be regretting be having me on now as I've been rambling for like half an hour.

[00:19:28] But like, like he believed it. And that's what we use. That's what we call authority. I am borrowing his authority and you are you have trust with Teddy. And so, like, that is the first thing is like, Hey, do I have value for free? Like, will you sign up for my mailing list? Will you go to the author stack?

[00:19:48] will you join my community because you think there's some value there? And like, maybe not money value, but like some sort of value. And now my first thing is like, okay, now you're, now you're at the author stack. Now maybe you upgrade and like become a paid member. Now maybe you buy a, and like, once you do that, even if it's for a dollar, now it's like, aha!

[00:20:10] You do think there's value here. I just now have to like expose how much value there is. I just have to show you how much value. So you keep giving me money. over time. And so like, as you're stacking on your value for your Kickstarter, at some point, someone's going to be like, okay, yes, I admit, there's a dollar of value here.

[00:20:32] You're like, cool. Now, if I, so if I 25x this, there's 25 of value here. now we're having a very different conversation than being like, you know, I could put 10 tentacle kitty, I could put everything on this desk in here and be like, will you give me a dollar for this? Yeah. Would you be dollar for this too?

[00:20:50] What if I put this and this and this and this and this? Well, you could stack a thing up to the ceiling and be still be like Nope, wouldn't give you a dollar and it's a very different conversation that we're having once you're like, okay This feels worth a dollar and you're like, okay I see you doing this Does that mean like the weight is the important part like could I put just like four books in your hand and would that be?

[00:21:14] As valuable and you might say I don't know and we do and you're like, yeah, this feels about as valuable as this Like, okay, cool. So you think four books is worth 1. Awesome. Like now, now, now how do we change that paradigm? How do I make a hundred for four books worth a hundred dollars? And like, that's really what you're, that's how I think about a campaign.

[00:21:37] We call it the 50 50, which is a reward should be 50 percent profit. and have and be and cost 50 percent of what the value is or less. So like if you make something for 50, it should cost no more than 25 to make and it should have 100 of value in it. Does that make sense? 

[00:22:01] Teddy Smith: Yeah, I think so. I think it's about, you know, making sure you're giving enough value to people in order for them to give you money in the first place.

[00:22:07] Because obviously you're a bit of an unknown. quantity at first, like, especially that you've got a reputation now, but say people listening to this, they haven't done a Kickstarter campaign before the people that are going to be launching their campaigns. They don't have any reputation really with the people who could be giving money.

[00:22:23] So you've got to be providing that value in order for it to make any sense for them to give it to you. 

[00:22:27] Russell Nohelty: What's so interesting, because, like, if you think about, like, Amazon, like, the same, like, Amazon has value in just, like, it's very easy, like, people on your Kindle, like, well, it's worth downloading the KU book, and it's like, well, like, the value, like, the value doesn't have to be very high, if they already are in KU, and already have a Kindle, and you write in a genre that they like, and they recognize your name, And like they read a chapter and they like it, like they can burn through your whole catalog, but there's very little value that has to be present there for like that action to happen.

[00:23:03] I am not saying your books don't have way more value than that. I'm just saying most people, most authors are still in KU and most, and if not there, most authors are on retailers. And so the relationship that the value that someone has to have when they're like, oh you're already on this Oh, look, you're in the the wide bundle thing on kobo.

[00:23:27] Like I got a kobo reader like I just go boop boop And like, now you'll have your book. Awesome. Like, I buy so many books, and just like, being like, I don't even know. You seem nice, like, boop! Like, I did this to a friend. I met it, I met it in Inkway. I hadn't seen in like, 10 years. I was like, oh cool, your books are on Sherp.

[00:23:43] Boop! Now I know what I'm reading this week. And I'm like, I already use Sherp. So like most people have never actually ever thought of this when they're a writer like they have never had to Ask like what value even means But when they do like a sale or when they do something like a kickstarter, they're like it's not working And like, the first thing that I ask them is what does your audience value?

[00:24:10] Like, what is the, what do you know has value? Yeah. Like, to them. And like, they'll be like, I don't know. And I'm like, well, like, are you in KU? It's like, yes. It was like, okay. So like. Like if you were in KU, this book would have downloads or something like that. So like we, we need to like change the paradigm of like what value means and understand that like a Kickstarter campaign or any sale event first and foremost is to establish like that.

[00:24:39] Your work has value monetarily and where that value lies. And once you have, once you know where like the value lies, then like. It's a negotiation. Now we're like, okay, cool. Like, you think my books have value because I write in KU. It's very easy. You go through a book a day, like, you don't really have to like, like, you just want something and then you want to move on to the next thing.

[00:25:07] cool. Like, well, that's a lot harder. That is a lot harder, that is a lot further ask to get someone to Kickstarter, than like, I bought your book in a conference. Cause like, you're already buying direct, like you already have a direct relationship with them. But if like, let's say that person knows BookFunnel, that KU person knows BookFunnel, you're like, oh.

[00:25:28] Well, like I can just deliver this to your book funnel library. It's just as easy if you're okay with that. And they're like, Oh yeah, I know that. So like, now you're like, okay, that eases slightly more that lift is slightly more, but like, if you can, you now know what the, friction point is, like where you're, Oh, I have to make sure during this launch, I tell people we are delivering our books.

[00:25:50] Or, like, we're delivering our audiobook codes through Findaway Voices. Or, like, whatever it is, it doesn't, like, matter. But, like What we are negotiating in the first any direct campaign is like, Do you really think that my books have value? Oh, you don't? Well, like, how can my books have value? Oh, I gotta like do a bundle of books plus this book?

[00:26:14] Like, oh, my book has 1 of value? Like, whatever that is. Like, when we think about running a sale, when we think about running a direct sales campaign, when we think about running anything, like the First, like, to me, it's like data. I need, I need to know how many people in my audience care, at what level, and like where they care, how they care, and, and whether they care monetarily or not.

[00:26:42] Because someone can care very deeply about you and not want to give you a dollar for your medical bills. And like, those are two very different kinds of caring. 

[00:26:54] Teddy Smith: when you've been a couple of weeks ago I spoke to Kevin J. Anderson, and he has, he's launched some books really successfully with Kickstarter, and one of his most recent ones is his series of books called Dan Shamble's Zombie P.

[00:27:06] I. It's like a a funny book about a zombie police officer. But they, he's got quite a lot of fans for that book, but the reason he does his Kickstarter is Because he launches other products alongside them and in this one he launched like a card game that goes alongside. Have you Launched physical products like that with your Kickstarter in order to you know Build your relationship with the fans and also it's obviously to make some more sales as well I 

[00:27:29] Russell Nohelty: mean, I've done a lot of things in my career that I wouldn't recommend other people doing I wouldn't recommend you like make a card game unless your books are successful already Like he and he launched several Dan shambles books before he did a card game version.

[00:27:44] Yeah. So like we've done card games, like we've done other products, but in general, like I just want to get the book out there. Like I work with, I, we've done a coffee brand integration. We've done. So, so yes, like we've done a lot of other things on Kickstarter, but like in general that is a very advanced move that I would not recommend to most people.

[00:28:12] Teddy Smith: Cool. Well, that's good advice at least. So if people are starting out, what are good things to offer as those extra tiers? Is it mostly extra writing, do you think? 

[00:28:22] Russell Nohelty: I don't think they should offer anything extra. Like, to go back to what we, to go back to what we talked about before, like, if you're running your first campaign, you have no idea what anybody is going to pay, if anyone's going to pay, and how many, I've seen seven figure authors.

[00:28:38] Make less than 1, 000. I've seen people with less than a hundred people on their list make 10, 000 on their Kickstarter I have no idea which is which so like I would do maybe a pin. I would do a special We call them So there's two options. We usually recommend one is an anniversary book, which is I Think self explanatory, but like it's a book that's been out three five one 10 years.

[00:29:06] and you recover it, you do some, a nice interior print and you put it on Kickstarter and you've now spent maybe $300 doing that whole campaign and you set a $500 limit and you're like, I'm gonna see what happens. Second is a, a Second Chance book, which is a book that was much loved, but wasn't loved by enough people.

[00:29:29] And so you do the exact same thing with them. It's usually, like, close to an anniversary book. The reason that you do one of these two options is because you already, like, know that the books work. Yeah, you already know that the, the, the hardest thing to do in creativity is to prove a story works. Once you prove a story is monetizable, then you just have to just figure out how monetizable it is in what format.

[00:29:54] And then the, the work is really like finding a thing that's monetizable. So like maybe you do a. Maybe you do a print, like maybe you do some some interior illustrations. I would keep it very small, because you do not know if you want to invest the time, energy, and effort into Kickstarter. You do not know either of the questions that are important to know, whether you like it, and whether your audience likes it.

[00:30:22] So like, if you like it, and your audience doesn't like it, you're gonna have to find a new audience, probably. Or like, do a lot of work to get them to like it for the next one. two, is do you like it? And that's the more important one, because like, if you just drop 10 grand on a book, recovering, or spent six months on a series, and man, only three people buy it, like, you are going to hate Kickstarter forever.

[00:30:46] It's very, very, very, very hard to come back from like, dropping that much money. But like, if you already have a book that is working, that is profitable, then like, you should. Do a thing with it. If it's massively profitable, like if it's the first book of a 30 book series, like Mal Cooper did like, yeah, like drop some real money on it.

[00:31:08] Because like, now you are, now you're like testing a known, now you're like playing house money. And that's what I want you to do on Kickstarter to start. I want you to play with house money, like money, like a series that either already is massively profitable and popular in your universe. So like you can use that to be like, Hey, remember when series one went and like use nostalgia or to a book that failed to break even and you can use Kickstarter to break it even.

[00:31:40] One of those two things are going to give you the best, and you probably want to run both, honestly, because you want to see, like, what the high watermark and the low watermark of a Kickstarter is, and then, once you know those things, you can then you can then, triangulate, like, what the next thing should be, but, like, I'm, I'm not very I'm not very high on, like, the current trend of doing these special editions, sprayed edges, custom illustrations inside that cost, like, ten grand minimum to do, because, like, most authors haven't made ten grand in their whole career.

[00:32:22] Most people don't have enough opi Don't have a hundred people that can pay them a hundred dollars to make ten thousand dollars back. Like, most people are set up to fail in that scenario. But like, do I think most people have enough money to make five hundred dollars? Yeah. Like, I think that, like, a, your niece who's in Girl Scouts can make 500 selling cookies.

[00:32:47] You can probably find enough people to make 500, or barring that, 300 work. And, like, once you do that You then have data that you can use to make better decisions next time. That said, I know people that are just like, I'm gonna go in, they listen to this, and like, I know Kickstarter, and like, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna screw you, Russell, like, I'm gonna do a 10, 000, 100, 000 Kickstarter, and then they, they nail it.

[00:33:16] And you're like, awesome, man, like, that's great, like, I wish, I hope that that is what happens for you. What will most likely happen is you will spend the next year building this campaign and anticipate it so hard and freak out so hard and put so much behind of your career and your aspirations behind this campaign that even if you succeed, there is no way that like it will live up to your expectations.

[00:33:45] And I would rather you just say. What do I got? I got a pen, like, I like pens, like, I like pens, like, I like, like, I like, I, I don't know, like, I, I know how to 3D print, like, little ducks, like, I'm just gonna do a little duck campaign, because that's, like, a cute thing for my book, and, like, those are doable, like, doing Lego minifigs is, like, a doable thing that you can do, because you can buy them for, like, 10, and sell them for, like, 25, like, a pin, you can buy, You can like get a pin design for a hundred bucks less probably and get them get a hundred of them for like another hundred two hundred bucks and that's like 300 bucks like Okay, well, if you lost 300 bucks, Teddy, like, I don't know, you probably owe way more than 300 bucks into your author career, right, at this point?

[00:34:37] So, like, like, that new cover, well, let me tell you you're probably going to get a new cover for that book one day. Like, if you're an author, like, you probably already want to recover, like, the minute that your book launches, you're like, I really want to get a new cover for it. Like, every author's like that.

[00:34:53] So, like, you probably are going to get that new cover. You might as well, like, just do a Kickstarter for it. And then, like, you likely are going to get new formatting because you want it to look prettier. Or a new thing's gonna happen. Or you learn a new trick in Vellum. And so, like, I don't know. You can take the pin.

[00:35:15] So you can take the pin and use that pin as your custom headings inside your book. And then you take the cover you're already going to use and make a print of it or something. And like, look, you've got like four or five rewards right there. Yeah. Nice. And like, Then if you make your five, if that 500 becomes 10, 000, guess what?

[00:35:35] You're going to do a lot more kickstarters. If that 500 becomes 700, like, I don't know, maybe you're like, dang, I learned a lot now, let me try it again next time. But. In, in nonfiction, in, in not fiction, like in businesses, like they do these little tests all the time where they're like testing the bounds of platforms and ad systems and all sorts of things, but like authors instead are like, I'm going to go all in on Kickstarter.

[00:36:06] I make 10, 000. And you're like, It's not like a great test of like, to, I would rather you do 10 different Kickstarter tests and find out what really works. Because if you do 10 of them and they each make 1, 000, 1, 500, you're going to learn a heck of a lot more than if you run one 10, 000 campaign and barely break even and your uncle spots you that final five grand.

[00:36:32] Teddy Smith: It sounds like you'll. You think Kickstarter is actually better for authors who have already got work and maybe using Kickstarter to relaunch some old projects rather than people who don't have any name yet, using it as a launch platform for their first book, for example? 

[00:36:45] Russell Nohelty: Oh no, I think that everyone should make this the first stop in their publishing journey.

[00:36:49] Every single author from From the, the, an author who has zero people in their audience to Brandon Sanderson and everyone in between. 

[00:36:58] Teddy Smith: So for the people who like literally maybe it's their first book or second book, first time using Kickstarter, how do you, what, what are the best ways to promote that Kickstarter campaign outside of just it being on Kickstarter in the first place?

[00:37:10] Russell Nohelty: If Kickstarter is the first step of your publishing journey, the question is like, your real question is like, how do you design a marketing campaign from scratch because, like, you're going to be on Kickstarter and then you're going to be on retailers and, like, the book's going to be in all of these places.

[00:37:24] So, like, How do you build an audience from scratch is a more like, I think, universal thing. It's, and, and the, the answer to that has been argued and studied like forever from like creators on down. So like you probably need a mailing list. You probably need to figure out at least one social channel that works to give you repeatable traffic.

[00:37:52] You need to build a network where you can leverage fandoms in different ways. you need to be able to borrow people's authority and let them borrow yours. You need ambassadors who will tell you about, talk about your work other places. You need to be a good steward of your community. Like, all of these things are the same things that you would have to do if you were doing a retailer launch.

[00:38:16] Like, they, people say that all you have to do is tune on Amazon ads for Kickstarter a lot. But like, that's not, like, true. Like, none of that is true. Like, you need, like, people in an audience to, like, help you. Push a book when it launches anywhere. what I am saying is like, if Kickstarter is the first step in your publishing journey, then, like, all of the marketing campaign, all of the marketing you already have to do, because this is the big thing, people are like, oh, to a Kickstarter is so much work.

[00:38:48] And I, I come back to them and I say, It's actually not, you've just never designed a marketing campaign in your life. Like, all of the Kickstarter is like, what you would do for a marketing campaign. You would build a sales page, you would have a blurb, you would have copy about each character, like, you would have an automation sequence, you would have, like, a funnel for people to come in and out, it just is like, no authors, authors have never done this before, because they've been so Myopic on on retailer and catalog sales and in that world Amazon and the other retailers are doing a lot of that work like they're doing abandoned cart sequences Like they're doing all of this other stuff like they're showing you're also bought so you get into the recommendation engines All things that Kickstarter does as well, but like, like, what I, what like a Kickstarter does is teaches you how to actually run a marketing campaign and like run a business, not like a catalog sales.

[00:39:48] Empire which is also a very nice can also be a very nice business But like if a direct sales or a wide business even something that's not on ku You need to have all of the elements that you design in a kickstarter campaign rewards merch A story that like sells probably like a sales video like copy imagery, all of this stuff is going to be essential for you in the direct sales Channels and in the long term sales of your book it just so happens that the strategy that we have been taught for 15 years is release your book run a bunch of ads and then when those ads don't go away like just forget about that book forever and Like now that book is dead to you but like Uh, if you want to get backlist sales, you need marketing campaigns in the same way that, like, we're talking about them for Kickstarter.

[00:40:46] So yeah, I would say that, like, what Kickstarter allows you to do by putting it first is design all of that marketing stuff that you're going to need later anyway, and then hopefully get paid for it. But, like, you're You're going to be able to make the most amount of money from the fewest people on Kickstarter, so it's probably going to be the best way to build a war chest, to break even on a book, and then dump that money into your other marketing channels when you launch the other books, which are much more, compliant.

[00:41:19] or pliable with ad spend. It's like Kickstarter's ad spend is not going to ad spend on Kickstarter. It's not going to do anything to juice your algorithm launches. It's not going to make you more findable on Kickstarter. There's only like a hundred projects and like fiction that are on at any one time.

[00:41:36] But like, if you spend that money on Amazon, like. It will actually like help you rank help you get more visible help you get into more feeds and so it's more pliable to ads than kickstarter is so you might as well build a mailing list bring it to kickstarter flush out money take money use money on retailers and just treat kickstarter like another retailer when you're wide like what i would you say don't launch a book on barnes and noble No, like, you would have, why would you not want to put a book, like, people, like, part of, people buy on Barnes Noble, and in the same way, it's like, well, why would you not run a book on Kickstarter?

[00:42:18] Like, people buy on Kickstarter. Is it 50, 000 people? No, but some portion of people want that Kickstarter book, and if it's not too much extra effort to do the Kickstarter, then it becomes easy to do the Kickstarter, especially once you have that series going. Great. 

[00:42:37] Teddy Smith: Now, just now you also touched on another thing, which was building that author network as one of the ways of like growing your, you know, getting that Kickstarter name out there.

[00:42:46] Now, I know you've got your conference, which is the Author MBA. Can you tell us a bit why you started that particular conference? 

[00:42:54] Russell Nohelty: Sure. So Writer MBA is in New Orleans every year. It started with something called the Future of Publishing Mastermind. Future Publishing Mastermind is for established 5, 6, 7 figure authors who've been doing this for a little while.

[00:43:07] Or people who are really, really excited to grow. Because we didn't have a mastermind style thing in publishing. So, there are things called masterminds in publishing that like, that are set up in conference style still which is like, speaker audience, like speaker audience style and then there are, there are little masterminds of like three to five people that gather and there's like some online things, but like, it wasn't like a big, like, brain trust.

[00:43:40] Like you would see in tech where like everyone comes for like a finite amount of time, they work on their business, they exchange information, vendors and, and attendees and everyone is like working to like build out their brains and their and their knowledge using strategies that like most people haven't even heard of, let alone let alone implemented yet.

[00:44:08] So, built this mastermind, and a lot of those people were like, this is great, what I would love is a conference that we could like, then now speak at and like be part of with like, and take this information to like, non mastermind people and like be able to, so, we this year started this, to take all of those people who were like speaking and like, and our sponsors and for the mastermind to be like, well, what would it look like if we like designed a conference?

[00:44:42] For, like, people in a way that that, like, brought people, again, intersectionally together from all different kinds of publishing and allowed them to exchange information together. So our conference is very networking focused. It's there are talks, but there's also a lot of time to breathe and to talk with each other, which is.

[00:45:07] The more important part of this, these networking things and intentionality we found that there's a huge portion of introverts in our industry that unless you explicitly invite them, they will not come and show up even if they are invited. So, like, we want to make sure that there's explicit things that, like, a huge part of our audience, are going to have access to.

[00:45:30] So while it's not like there's no there's no even there's an application for coming to the mastermind, but for the regular conference, there's no application. You can just come and we say, like, it's really for people who are excited to, like, grow their business, their author business, like, take advantage of a lot of these vendors and.

[00:45:51] One of the things about Going Wide that I learned was like, it's very relational. It's way more relational than like, KU is, or like, social media is. Like, a lot of the success is due to like, knowing the vendors, and knowing the people that like, are doing the work. And like, that can get you like, promotions and things.

[00:46:10] And, I don't, I'll always known this in my like, little like, Kickstarter bubble. But like turns out that all of the direct sales and people always ask me like, why am I floundering? And I'm like, well, do you know any of the reps? And they're like, no, it's like 80 percent of the game is like getting these like merchandising options.

[00:46:30] And 80 percent of merchandising options is like knowing the reps and knowing the reps is them seeing you in person so that they know that you're serious. And like, is that fair? I don't know. I mean, you've got to have a process. So we want to be a place where Like all of that stuff happens and like we are very interested in bringing many different kinds of writers together because we believe that all writers have about five percent of the answer maybe ten percent of the answer of like what it takes to build a career.

[00:47:03] So like some of it is locked in like all and like other authors but some of it is locked in journalists and serial fiction and And like on kickstarter and all of the and if you just we think that we cap out at What we can make but really we've just capped out at what like that line of business can make us but like if we just brought in more business, more lines of business, we would keep growing almost forever because like, Oh, now, now I'm bringing in a subscription.

[00:47:37] And like, now I have a merchandising and look, I have a direct store and I have all of these things. And like, they all add up just like a, when you're wide, like quite a large and powerful, like business. 

[00:47:52] Teddy Smith: How many how many people do you usually have attended the NBA? 

[00:47:56] Russell Nohelty: We're hoping to have somewhere between 300 and 500.

[00:47:58] That's what we're set up to do this year. Last year we had like 75 for the mastermind. So we're expecting to have somewhere around 100 for the mastermind and 300 for the conference. Is it mostly 

[00:48:10] Teddy Smith: fiction writers for this? Not non fiction? 

[00:48:15] Russell Nohelty: I want all intersectional writers to be there. So like if you But like you have to be willing like I think the thing is like you have to be open to learning from other Disciplines of writing like that's because like there are things that fiction will teach non fiction writers just like there are things that Non fictional teach fiction authors.

[00:48:39] And so like we we are Agnostic to like what kind of writers come? And whether you've even written a book or not, whether you've written a hundred books or one book but like we do expect that people are open to learning from because this is the biggest thing to the biggest problem with writers is that unless something comes That looks exactly like their book and is marketed in the exact way that they are marketing or think to market, they are not going to do it.

[00:49:10] And unfortunately, when it comes to entrepreneurship, like, it's a lot, a lot of it is like looking at, like, I don't know. Here. Look, I'm looking at this frog that I'm holding in my hands and like being like, Hmm, well, like I bought this at a conference and like, this is good. I like a tactile, like, how can I bring like the elements here into a thing that I know?

[00:49:35] And most of the work that Monica and I do are translation work between like other areas of business and, and writer MBA. But we're really excited because the people that End up coming to our conference and being interested in our community or these very I mean you could probably like i'm I don't know like i'm i'm usually like eight degrees beyond anyone else that i'm talking to?

[00:49:58] but like Like monica and I saw this like i've been talking about kickstarter for authors since 2015 And, like, I've been using it for even earlier than that, so, like, these are things that that, like, these, like, forward focused people, these, like, futuristic people, or these, like, strategic people, who, like, are, like, I know there's something out there.

[00:50:22] I just need to like know what that thing is. And we always say in the conference, like someone in the room has the key to the lock that's blocking your business. I don't know who it is, but like we try to, we try to do this thing called plan serendipity, which is like, we bring in very smart people. We have very, we like encourage.

[00:50:44] exploration. And like, we give you focus and then like, we expect good things to happen. But what are those good things? Like, I don't know. I tell people all the time, it's like, I thought as I became more successful, I'd become more like a president of business. And it ends up that, like, I became more like Princess Unikitty, and, like, Princess Unikitty is great, like, but she basically, like, battles chaos, and, like, makes safe, makes it safe for creative, chaotic people to, like, do their best work.

[00:51:17] and protects them mercilessly and like very successful, very successful princess Unikitty is, but like, I always thought everything was going to be like, come from structure and be predictable. And it's more like if enough chaotic elements run together, then like. Enough good things will happen, but like, I can never plan.

[00:51:42] Like I could never have planned from our conference, even though I went in with the intention to do a podcast afterwards called the six figure author experiment. You told me that Lisa Vino would be the person who I hosted that podcast with. I'd have been like, but I found, I literally never even met her before this conference started.

[00:51:59] Like, so like, that is the kind of thing that I'm talking about. Like you can have an intention, but like. The, you have to be open for like how that intention will resolve at any conference that you go to, like whether it's AuthorNation, whether it's Nink, whether it's like your local thing, it's like, like, if you are too structured a thing, you are going to lose that serendipitous moment where you actually find the person who like unlocks the thing for you.

[00:52:30] Teddy Smith: That's interesting. So I always try to get, I always have a plan of what I want to try and get out of a conference. I guess it's different if you're attending like as a writer or from a business perspective, but I think it's good to try and think who is it you want to meet? Or if it's not a particular person, what sort of person do you need to meet?

[00:52:46] And what's the struggles you're having at that point? 

[00:52:49] Russell Nohelty: I think having the struggle, like I think understanding the struggle you want to overcome is important. 

[00:52:54] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:52:55] Russell Nohelty: I think being able to look at a conference speaker conference list and be like, okay. There's a bunch of people here that can probably solve my issue.

[00:53:03] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:53:04] Russell Nohelty: But, like, I think that it's myopic to say I'm going to meet these four people and one of them is going to, like, solve my issue. Saying I want to meet these four people is, like, great, but, like, my philosophy is, like, I'm going to meet a bunch of people there and, like, Some chaotic gremlin is going to make something good happen.

[00:53:25] And I'm gonna leave with like, but I don't want to leave without some sort of resolution on. Yeah. As I mentioned at our conference, it was, whether I was gonna do this podcast, like I wanted to do this podcast that I've been talking about for two years. Out of nnc, it was like, I want to talk to every vendor and like, And like, and go to the Dolly Museum, which I ended up doing, and it was great. It's just like a lot broader, it's like a lot broader, a scope of success than I think most people have going to a conference. And also it's scary as hell. To say that thing because you're looking you're like you just want me to like pay thousands of dollars like trust in the frigging universe to like deliver me an answer to this problem of like how to break through a big block like That is way too much to ask and I get it like because like I I like I was there Like i've been there so many times It's only in like A hundred, like being at two hundreds of shows and like talking to Lee for like dozens of hours and Monica for hundreds of hours that and like just knowing that like The, the, like, more loosely held, the thing is, the more you allow the right thing to happen instead of forcing the wrong, like, that thing to happen.

[00:54:50] But, like, you can't, like, we go, I talk to investors a lot. Not that we have investment, but like, they're always like, well, what are the metrics that you track? And I'm like, Well, I don't know quality conversations had in a week, like, yeah, they're like, what does that even mean? And they're like, well, it's more than high has to be more than high high and has to have some meaningful thing exchanged, whether that is like a hope, a dream, an action point, like, whatever, like something has to have changed hands in that interaction.

[00:55:22] And like, then it's a win. They're like, how does that become money? And I'm like, I don't know, because like, All right. So this is my like hottest. This is one of my hotter takes. And when I say people like are go crazy, like I have no idea how I make money. Like I know that if I perform X actions. Why money will come.

[00:55:45] I know if I create Z product, why money will come. Like I know that if I, I, I know actions that I can take that lead to money, but like when you actually unpack that and I open up, let's say the 150 people who bought our blue our bulletins at the end of the World book, every single one of those people.

[00:56:07] Had a different journey to get there. They saw a different thing. They had a different experience. And even if they are longtime buyers, the experience they had this time is probably different than the one they had last time and the one they had before then. And so like, I can predict. That, like, if I have a mailing list of X size, and I make this kind of book, this is the result.

[00:56:31] I'm actually very good. I'm actually very, very good at predicting that, like, bottom number. Like, freakishly good at predicting that bottom number, just by gut instinct alone. But, like, if you then said okay, why did Bob buy? I'd be like, I don't literally have no idea. Like I look at our bank sheet every, every two months or every month.

[00:56:52] And I'm like, how does this amount of revenue equal this amount of money in our bank? Like, I just don't understand. I'm like, I don't get it. And every time people go, that's not a great thing for a business coach to say. And I'm like, I know, but like, I feel like if we were all really honest with ourselves, We would say, I actually, like, I actually don't know.

[00:57:17] Like, I want to know. I want to pretend, like, I know, like, what this answer is going to be. Like, what I'm going to get out of this conference. But, like, I just have to trust the people. Like, I just have to make a bet on the project. Or the partnership or like the person holding the conference to be like they're going to deliver something magical and I don't know what that is and I know that is like Monica is very high woo and so like I'm and and Lee is very high woo and thus I have become very high woo but also the more successful I get the more people I meet that just like are like it's like chaos like this is like it's like I'm bottling chaos and like I I understand the metrics, all of the X and the Y and the Z, but I learned about Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem last year around this time, which is that for every mathematical, formula, one part of it is unprovable at any time.

[00:58:18] Right. And I was like, this is math. This is like, the thing that is supposed to be, like, we're supposed to be able to hold to math, right? It's the only thing, if anything, we can hold to math. and even that is like, well, sure, this equation works, but like, don't look at it too closely because like, it falls apart under even the slightest scrutiny, but like, it works, but like, don't look at it too hard.

[00:58:45] Now that way went off from like, Kickstarter to like, way esoteric. 

[00:58:50] Teddy Smith: So if people want to come to the Writer's MBA conference, where's the best way to get in touch with you about it or to find out more information? 

[00:58:57] Russell Nohelty: WriterMBA. com has all of the all of the information. hope if you, if you're listening to this, you probably, and you've gotten this far, you probably qualify for the Mastermind.

[00:59:06] So many people that I talked to, like a third of people that I, that we approved for the Mastermind was like, oh, I didn't think I would get in. To which I will say, probably if you, if you, if you are excited to get in, you probably qualify to get in. Like, like, way, it's way, way few, way more people probably disqualify themselves than we could ever disqualify.

[00:59:31] You also get access to all of our courses if you come to our masterminds. So, you want to hear more of my, like, esoteric weird business rants the authors stack. com is my blog. If you want to see any of these books the russellnolte. com is where all of my books are. But yeah, I mean.

[00:59:48] If you want to see the conference, write your MBA, but like, I think the best pitch that I can give is like If you believe that Monica and or Russell or both are like the right person to curate an experience to like, break you through your best block, just like, come. And if you don't believe that, then like, find somebody, anyone, that like, well not anyone, like somebody reputable, and like, Trust them.

[01:00:19] Go through their program, go through their process, like, just, like, bet on people, like, not on necessarily, like, engine for that person's teaching. 

[01:00:33] Teddy Smith: Brilliant. Well, some good advice at the end. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much for today. There's been, yeah, really wide range of conversation, uh, starting at the Kickstarter, but yeah, ending with, as you said, quite an esoteric business source.

[01:00:48] You're 

[01:00:48] Russell Nohelty: welcome. I'm glad to 

[01:00:49] Teddy Smith: do it. You said you had a final question, right? So there's one final question. Yeah. That is a book that you recommend everyone should be reading. 

[01:00:56] Russell Nohelty: Hundred and places to visit after you die. by Ken Jennings, which is a very weird poll, but like, he goes, dissects like 101 afterlives, and like, I really love it.

[01:01:09] So is it like 

[01:01:09] Teddy Smith: stories 

[01:01:10] Russell Nohelty: of people like that after they've died? No. So you know how it's a travel guide for afterlives. So like, if you, if you know the book thousand and one places to visit before you die, it's like the same kind of travel guide. It gives travel advice and like breaks down like what each Afterlife is, it's so good and so weird, and I cannot believe Ken Jennings wrote it, and like, I can't believe we don't talk more about how Ken Jennings wrote a travel guide to Afterlives.

[01:01:37] It is such a weird confluence of events, and like, this man, went on Jeopardy, randomly went on Jeopardy, won all the Jeopardys. Took over Jeopardy, and like, wrote a book about the under like, what a weird confluence of events, like, it seems like logical in retrospect, but like, it actually doesn't. 

[01:01:59] Teddy Smith: Good, well, that is a really out there suggestion, I've never heard that book, and so It sounds like a bit of me, so I think I'm going to get that one actually.

[01:02:08] Awesome. But most people have recommended On Writing by Stephen King, so this is quite nice to have a bit of a different one. 

[01:02:15] Russell Nohelty: Well, you said that when you first started, and I was like, well, I can't, can't do that one. Like, not that I don't love, like, Stephen King. Another one, great one is Claire Taylor's Sustaining Your Author Career, if you want an author one.

[01:02:26] It's about Enneagrams and, and author edness. 

[01:02:30] Teddy Smith: Oh, great. Well, I'll put both of them in the show notes so people can pick up on them. But yeah, no, thanks for coming today. It's been great to meet you. I'm looking forward to meeting you in person in auth nation and yeah, speak again soon. Awesome. Thank you so much for tuning into the publishing performance podcast.

[01:02:46] I really hope you found today's episode inspiring. I love chatting to authors, writers, and people in the publishing world. Now, just before we wrap up, let me tell you about publishing performance, the number one platform for authors who wants to increase Amazon book sales, but I'm not really sure Now, this show is all about helping you to sell more books.

[01:03:05] And if you're looking to boost your publishing game and to maximize your book's potential on Amazon, then Publishing Formants is designed to help authors just like you to grow your readership and to reach a much wider audience. Now, I know that Amazon ads can be slightly complicated, which is why Publishing Formants is like having a personalized ad account manager to create your ad campaigns, to choose your best keywords, And to make adjustments in real time.

[01:03:31] Now, if you're investing in ads, you really want to make sure that your investment is being used effectively and publishing performance does just that. It aims to make your budget go further, improve your organic rank and target keywords more effectively. Just go to publishingformance. com to get started with Amazon ads for just 

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