The Publishing Performance Show

Nicola Kinloch - Balancing Art and Education: The Craft of Children's Book Illustration

• Teddy Smith • Episode 82

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Nicola Kinloch is an artist and illustrator with a background in fine art photography and textile design who recently ventured into children's book illustration. Her first illustrated book, written by her mother Patricia Lang, is about bees and beekeeping, combining adventure storytelling with educational content. The book uniquely presents the world from a bee's perspective, teaching children about beekeeping while engaging their imagination. With a passion for visual storytelling, Nicola has developed her own illustration techniques and is now working on additional books for the bee series as well as her own projects.


In this episode:

  • Nicola's background in fine art photography and textile design
  • How the mother-daughter collaboration began during COVID
  • The inspiration behind the beekeeping children's book
  • Nicola's process for learning illustration and developing her style
  • Techniques for creating illustrations by hand and digitally
  • How to balance technical information with storytelling in children's books
  • Finding the right visual style for different age groups
  • The importance of pacing and page turns in visual storytelling
  • Nicola's upcoming projects, including "The Adventures of Common Cutlery"
  • Resources for aspiring children's book creators


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[00:00:00] Teddy Smith: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Publishing Performance Show. Today I'm really happy to be joined by Nicola Kinloch, who is an artist and illustrator, and she's just published her first children's book. So thank you for joining the show, Nicola. 

[00:00:19] Nicola Kinloch: Oh, wonderful. Thank you for having me. 

[00:00:21] Teddy Smith: Yeah. So tell me a bit about your background.

[00:00:23] Teddy Smith: So you are an artist and you've just got into illustrating quite recently. 

[00:00:28] Nicola Kinloch: Yes, yes, that's right. My background's in fine art photography and sort of textile design essentially. And I've recently been working also in UX design, so really design and photography. But yes, I, during covid actually, my mother had written some children's books, seven to be Given, and she was looking to we were looking to sort of stay connected over that time. And so we started on this journey of making these children's books. And so she whittled them down to three and yeah, I've been illustrating them for her.

[00:01:02] Teddy Smith: So these books were written by your mum, but your, you've done the illustrations on them. 

[00:01:06] Nicola Kinloch: That's correct, yes. Yeah. 

[00:01:08] Teddy Smith: Right. Okay. So what, with these, with these particular books, what was the inspiration behind writing them? 

[00:01:13] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah, so for for my mother Patricia Lang, she, I. Had been doing a lot of beekeeping with her granddaughter and she realized that her granddaughter didn't realize that the books that she was reading about bees were the same as the bees she was going out and helping her grandmother with.

[00:01:32] Nicola Kinloch: So, and she is a very curious child, like many children, and she was asking a lot about the bees and how they work and why they do this and that. So that was kind of the inspiration. Yeah. 

[00:01:43] Teddy Smith: Right. Okay. So yeah, my, my parents and all, they keep bees as well, and I know that it's quite tricky. I've, I've spent a few summers with my mark pen finding different queens and putting black red dots on them and things like that, so, 

[00:01:54] Nicola Kinloch: exactly.

[00:01:55] Nicola Kinloch: And it's, so I think it's a bit like a. Bird people once you start yeah. Once you get interested, there's so much to know that you tend to get very interested. 

[00:02:04] Teddy Smith: Yeah. So with this book, the aim of it is, is it more of a like a practical guide for kids to understand about how bees work? Or is it more of a story 

[00:02:14] Nicola Kinloch: I.

[00:02:15] Nicola Kinloch: Yes, it's a bit of both. I think. It's sort of a, a adventure story wrapped up in technical information. Yeah, my mother's an anthrop anthropologist and so she has sort of taken that angle, but then what she's done to sort of make the story more interesting is she's told it from the bee's perspective.

[00:02:30] Nicola Kinloch: So, that sort of brings in the fun element for the kids. Yeah. 

[00:02:34] Teddy Smith: Right. Okay. So how, what, what's the, what is the B'S perspective? 

[00:02:38] Nicola Kinloch: Yes. Well, they talk to each other and they look, they're looking back at the beekeeper and sort of talking to each other and then having that perspective looking out into the world essentially, I guess, too.

[00:02:49] Nicola Kinloch: As a child, there was a book that I absolutely adored now, I can't think of the author off the top of my head, but had built a world of, for a mi, a mouse in the wall. And just my imagination as a child being looking at a wall, the boringest thing ever, and just picturing this whole world behind it.

[00:03:07] Nicola Kinloch: And I think that was sort of part of what we were trying to create where you look just at a beehive as you're going past as a child and you picture this whole world inside there. 

[00:03:17] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Amazing. Is the beekeeper a friend or an enemy in the books? 

[00:03:21] Nicola Kinloch: It's. Yeah. One, not one or the other really. 

[00:03:25] Teddy Smith: It's just there.

[00:03:26] Teddy Smith: It's just something 

[00:03:26] Nicola Kinloch: that's there. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's more of a friend, but it's not sort of friendly. Yeah. Or a carer. Yes. 

[00:03:35] Teddy Smith: So with the illustrations for this book, is this the first book you've illustrated yourself? 

[00:03:39] Nicola Kinloch: It is, yes. 

[00:03:40] Teddy Smith: So what was your inspiration behind the styles? Because your drawings are absolutely incredible.

[00:03:45] Nicola Kinloch: Oh, thank you very much. I guess, 'cause I've been storytelling through visual photography for many years and I've always drawn, but not commercially it was, it was really fun to actually play and find a style. It took a very long time. Yeah. And I do have some early drawings that are quite hilarious.

[00:04:03] Nicola Kinloch: But yeah, the, the trickiest part with this book was actually to. Strip it back and let the get the weight right between the really technical, heavy and just being able to look around and have a lot of white space and just yeah. Time on the page where you don't use processing the information.

[00:04:21] Nicola Kinloch: 'cause there is a lot of information and it's a lot longer the story than the word count is much higher than normally would. 

[00:04:28] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Did you how did you learn to do illustrations? Because I know a lot of people just think, oh, I'm just gonna start drawing. And that obviously you can do that, but I think there is a, a bit of a skill in knowing what sorts of pictures to put in a children's book.

[00:04:40] Teddy Smith: I only know that 'cause I illustrated my own children's book, which I think we talked about before. I've got it here. Yes. Which is also. 

[00:04:45] Nicola Kinloch: Fantastic. Yeah. 

[00:04:47] Teddy Smith: And it, I've got the drawings like this. I, I'll, I'll, I've got the, I basically took inspiration from Quentin Blake, and I'm not gonna say I stole his style, but basically I stole his style.

[00:04:56] Nicola Kinloch: Fantastic. It's a brilliant style Castillo. 

[00:04:58] Teddy Smith: Yeah. But what did, did you do anything to learn about how to draw children's books? 

[00:05:04] Nicola Kinloch: Yes. Well, I think two things. I've always worked to a brief so I understand what it means when you're given a brief. So I sort of approach any project. In that way. So I'm looking at the why and you know, even down to what size it should be and how it should speak to Colorwise.

[00:05:20] Nicola Kinloch: So I've sort of got all that visual language from years of training. But what I did do is I did some online courses, which were fantastic, especially during Covid. Which did you do? I would highly recommend one was. Called The Art of Sketching by Mattias Olson, and that was on domestica and the other one was this fabulous group of women.

[00:05:40] Nicola Kinloch: Called the the good ship illustration. Yeah. Limited. 

[00:05:45] Teddy Smith: Yes, I know those guys. Yeah. 

[00:05:46] Nicola Kinloch: Yes. And they're fabulous. So, yeah, that's sort of, they were the two that really stood out to me and helped a lot in my So what were the 

[00:05:54] Teddy Smith: things that you learned from those courses that you could give as tips to people who are aspiring to illustrate their own books?

[00:06:01] Nicola Kinloch: One that all that really stood out was there's no way to do it. I think I learned that myself with photography, having trained with many different photographers. Every person has a hammer or a camera and they use it differently and they work in a different way. And that was really I. Wonderful to know.

[00:06:16] Nicola Kinloch: I think people are still muddling along as they go, and that's really nice when you're first starting out. Yeah. And then a lot was to do with process, so understanding that there are, you know, there's, there's particular formulas that apply to certain age brackets and even just with the way you illustrate, depending on the voice.

[00:06:40] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah, I guess tips and tricks. Can't think of any straight off 

[00:06:46] Teddy Smith: with the with the formulas that you were talking about just now. So you, what you said there's particular formulas that work for different age groups. So your book is aimed at like age eights, roughly, like between five and eight sort of thing?

[00:06:59] Teddy Smith: Yes. Yeah. So did you have a formula that you worked towards when you're illustrating this book? 

[00:07:05] Nicola Kinloch: Well it was really the 40 page and like I said, it was much more text than usual. That would normally sort of be down 500 word count. But yeah, so because of that I really tried to pace it well and yeah, try and keep the surprises in terms of not so much the the language, but from page turn, the world sort of changed slightly to keep in pace with the, with the copy. 

[00:07:31] Teddy Smith: So what, what do you mean by that? Because, so you said the actual, the style of your drawing changed as the book evolved or, 

[00:07:36] Nicola Kinloch: Oh, a little bit. But yeah, just when, because it was switching between the beekeeper's perspective and then the, the world of the bees.

[00:07:45] Nicola Kinloch: So I had to sort of have, illustration elements that showed which we, which part we were in. Yeah. And just to signify the the beekeeper. So yeah. I hope that explains it. Yeah. 

[00:07:59] Teddy Smith: Yeah. So when you did your when you did your course, we talked, you talked just now a bit about understanding the process.

[00:08:05] Teddy Smith: So what's your process for illustrating a book? 

[00:08:08] Nicola Kinloch: Yes. Well, firstly coming up with the idea or brainstorming I guess. And obviously I've also done Sophie Howard's Kindle Print sorry, Kindle Publishing Course. Okay. And so there was a lot of really fabulous information there about really researching your keywords and working out what book you wanna write.

[00:08:27] Nicola Kinloch: So that also applied to children's books, although I noticed it's not something that she teaches on that course specifically. So that was sort of part of the the research in finding out what you wanted to write and then yeah, then I'd do some initial drawings and just really fun play drawings, establishing characters, and then I'll come up with the idea of the story and write that out.

[00:08:49] Nicola Kinloch: And I tend to do the drawings and the writing. To give that in separately. So I'll, I'll sketch it out in completely in the thumbnails, and then I'll go back and rewrite the story and then do another lot of thumbnails and then see what the text looks like within those thumbnails. So sort of it's back and forth and back and forth.

[00:09:10] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah. Yeah. And then once I feel like I've, I'm happy with the pace and how it's all working, and then I'll move to, yeah, secondary drawings. I actually then blow them up and draw over them until I'm happy with the actual finals. And then I'll do a final paint. But that book I did with actually hand drew it without using a tablet.

[00:09:32] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah, so, oh, so you did 

[00:09:33] Teddy Smith: it all on paper at first? 

[00:09:35] Nicola Kinloch: Did it all on paper. That one, yeah. Completely. Okay. 

[00:09:37] Teddy Smith: So how did you translate it from being on paper to being digital and principal? 

[00:09:42] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah. Then just did the a three scans and did a final color touch at the, at the end? Yeah. 

[00:09:47] Teddy Smith: Oh, so you literally just scan it in and then.

[00:09:49] Teddy Smith: So the, the reason I ask is, 'cause I, I get is ask this question load. So I did my, basically the process I used for mine was I got a PowerPoint presentation. Yeah. And I wrote the book at first and just put it on a, in a PowerPoint so I could see like which page would be which. Yeah. And then the drawings I drew by hand and then I kind of uploaded them and I got someone on Fiverr to.

[00:10:10] Teddy Smith: Kind of make them digital for me 'cause I don't really know how to do it. But it works quite well for me 'cause I could do my sketches and they could then make them look really pretty by adding the color and the layers and things like that so I could move them round 

[00:10:23] Nicola Kinloch: oh's. 

[00:10:25] Teddy Smith: Yeah. So what, how did you do it?

[00:10:26] Teddy Smith: Because it sounds like you did it by hand then, but then did it digitally afterwards, separately. 

[00:10:30] Nicola Kinloch: Oh, it was just the color touching at the end. So yeah, I actually did, what does that mean? I, I came up with this really great process for me and I use butcher's paper and I use color on top of that.

[00:10:41] Nicola Kinloch: And you can actually, with the types of felt pens I use, you, can they move more like paint? On the books paper. Right. Okay. And then you can put a white white paper or even colored paper behind that, and then it looks like paper when you scan it. So you get these beautiful, I think, 'cause when when I was a kid, I, one of my family friends was an architect and I just loved the feeling of these architectural papers.

[00:11:07] Nicola Kinloch: They felt really special to me. So I wanted just to sort of try and, they have these special final drawings that were separate to the book. 

[00:11:15] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I love I love using posh art equipment. I'm an, I'm an absolute sucker for a posh felt pen. Absolutely. I even use them in my, like, daily life. Like my, all my notes are written with like these sketching pens.

[00:11:31] Nicola Kinloch: Ah, yes. And the laie pens. Ah, the best this, 

[00:11:34] Teddy Smith: yeah. Lovely. Yeah. So the process for you is when you are, if so, if you're. Say someone came to you and said, oh, I've got this idea for a children's book. You'd say to 'em, start with the story, but then if you were sketching out that they want to draw it themselves, sketch out the drawings themselves using their pencils and just paper, just so they can get an idea of what it's going to like first, and then literally you can do it by hand and just upload it.

[00:11:58] Teddy Smith: And scan it in and edit it there. Is that how you do it? 

[00:12:02] Nicola Kinloch: Absolutely. Well, I'm actually using an iPad as well now. And the, the the pins and brushes on there are so good because initially when I did it, 'cause I've always drawn with a tablet for years and years and years. I've been using Adobe and so, but it's just not quite the same.

[00:12:18] Nicola Kinloch: And the iPad's so lovely because you can have it on your lap and move it around. But yeah, the yeah, I've always used drawings and then scanned them in. What was really fun with this book is I could actually do really detailed drawings and then overlay them in Photoshop. So you keep the detail and then, yeah.

[00:12:38] Nicola Kinloch: So the final image had a couple of layers of drawings on the final. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it seems to come up really well. 

[00:12:47] Teddy Smith: So what, what's the plan with the future of this book series? Because it sounds like you've got a couple more that have been written that you are, that you've got in the works. 

[00:12:53] Nicola Kinloch: That's right.

[00:12:54] Nicola Kinloch: So I've got two more to do. And then, yeah, look, I've got my own books that I've written that I'm dying to do, I'm doing in the background. So I have been drawing bees for a many, many years out and I'm keen to be touring other things. But yes, no, I'm. 

[00:13:11] Teddy Smith: What, what's, what are your next series about?

[00:13:12] Teddy Smith: Are they also about bees? 

[00:13:14] Nicola Kinloch: No, they're completely different. I I have a, a silly series called the Adventures of Common Cutlery. It is about a forker spoon and a knife, and they're just silly adventures. The first book is about Eddie Eddie Fork, his name is, and he's sort of this character who travels all around the world just finding out what people eat for breakfast in different countries.

[00:13:36] Nicola Kinloch: So, and it's a rhyming book, so it's really silly and fun. Yeah. And then the next story is I was gonna call it Kira ly, but I'm not sure I'll get away with that. But I've got your back. It's called Kira Knife. I've got your back and it's all about just what to do to sort of stay. It was during Covid, so I was writing it for kids just to have fun and, not get too stressed. So it's, you know, like climbing trees and sort of old school things to do to, to stay off the screens. 

[00:14:06] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Great. And what's your plans to illustrate those? If you got a D are you gonna stick to the same style as you've been using with your current, or are you gonna experiment with something different?

[00:14:15] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah, it's very different. Very different. I think yeah, I think I'd probably be one of those people that would do lots of different things, but I think really you think they're very different than anyone else. Looking at them can see that it's your style. So, yeah, I think. I think using a tablet really makes it feel quite different to drawing.

[00:14:36] Nicola Kinloch: I definitely think you are using slightly different parts of your brain, even though you've got a tablet to paper. For me, I just, yeah, I always feel like this is something slightly different happening in your brain when using one or the other. So I think I'll try and keep using both. And what's lovely about when you do it, on papers. You've got these beautiful things at the end that are separate to the book, and I think that's quite magical, especially when people come and ask you, you know, you get out these wonderful big drawings, it's, yeah, I think that's part of the. I like that as part of the sort of illustration world.

[00:15:08] Teddy Smith: Yeah. So, and obviously you are an artist as well, so that which has helps, but if you is, is getting into illustration like for other people, something that you want to like, explore, like looking at working with other artists or other writers to write their books too. 

[00:15:23] Nicola Kinloch: Yes, absolutely. I would love to collaborate.

[00:15:25] Nicola Kinloch: I'm putting together my portfolio at the moment and yeah, I would really, really love to meet some people who would like to collaborate, whether it's writing, co-writing together, or me just doing the illustrations for their books. So, yes, that's the plan. 

[00:15:40] Teddy Smith: Have you worked out how you are going to find people to work with yet?

[00:15:44] Nicola Kinloch: Absolutely. I I'm just in the process of setting. I recently joined the S-C-B-W-I and they have this fabulous what's that? So that's the global community of Children's Book Creators, the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators there. Okay. So they're a global organization and you can join up.

[00:16:01] Nicola Kinloch: With groups all around the world. So I've recently just been asked to set up a group in my local area with people. And so you get to join and share your stories and give feedback on what people are writing, and I think that's really fantastic from someone who has been a freelancer. You know, it's really neat to know that there are people you can sort of handle your idea that you thought was great yesterday.

[00:16:27] Nicola Kinloch: That might be rubbish, but you're not too sure. 

[00:16:29] Teddy Smith: That's amazing. So I didn't, I didn't know about that community. So that sounds like a great resource for people who are maybe really interested in writing children's books. It's a great place to go and learn and to meet other people who are in the same boat.

[00:16:39] Nicola Kinloch: Yes, absolutely. And the fact that it's global is quite remarkable, I think. The other thing that is an absolute bible that I found out about is this it's called the Children's Writers and Artist here, book 2025. And that lists every single publisher, yeah, every single publisher globally. So, and they actually also have wonderful essays about how to publish both traditionally and self-publish.

[00:17:03] Nicola Kinloch: So it's another great resource. Yeah. 

[00:17:05] Teddy Smith: Oh, that's really interesting. We'll put links to that in the show notes. So if, if you could give one piece of advice to people who are thinking about writing some children's books, like some practical advice, not just inspirational advice, where, where would you tell them to start?

[00:17:20] Nicola Kinloch: I think I'd say do a course to start with just 'cause someone will take you out through the process from start to finish. Yeah. And so then you get a feel for whether it's something that you even would like to do. I know. There are lots of people that like to do a part of it, so I. I think it's such a process driven, from my perspective anyway, it's such a process driven thing, which I love because that's what I do as an artist.

[00:17:44] Nicola Kinloch: And I love research and so much of children's books, even though the end product one feel like there is a hell of a lot of. Research that goes into the behind the scenes. So yeah, I think yeah, do a course potentially to work out if you enjoy that process. Otherwise you can just do a small part of the process so, you know, yeah, just write the book and get illustrated or work with someone that, you know, just do an outline and someone else can write the book.

[00:18:13] Nicola Kinloch: I actually had help with the rhyming books. I outsourced some of the, so it was like a co-writing. And that was, it was a lot of fun just because you had that sort of person to spar off and throw ideas around with. Yeah. 

[00:18:28] Teddy Smith: Yeah. And so with your books, did you get them edited or did you do all that process yourself?

[00:18:33] Nicola Kinloch: We did we did use Fiverr to edit it. Obviously I pushed, my mother wasn't so keen, but I just think it's always, I had known myself as an artist. It's always really great to have just the third party, like the, the umpire of the, as a word, just to see that it's someone completely outside of what you're doing can understand it.

[00:18:54] Teddy Smith: A neutral third party that's not your daughter to tell you exactly. Your spelling is wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I can see why that'd be helpful. 

[00:19:02] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah, so we actually had someone in the uk and she actually turned out to be an, an academic that was doing some editing on the side. 

[00:19:10] Teddy Smith: Moonlighting. Yeah, that's right.

[00:19:13] Teddy Smith: Great. Well, it's been, it's been, it's been wonderful to speak to you. It's been great to hear about your process. I've really enjoyed chats about that. Just before we go just. We always do this for everyone, but it's what one book do you recommend that everyone should be reading at the moment? 

[00:19:25] Nicola Kinloch: Yes.

[00:19:25] Nicola Kinloch: Well this is a book I think is fabulous. It's called Designing Your Life. Build the Perfect Career Step by Step. Yeah. I don't know if you've heard of it by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans, and it's just no isn't, it's something I wish I'd got my hands on a lot earlier. And it it uses sort of design principles to look at your life and where you wanna go.

[00:19:44] Nicola Kinloch: And I think for someone like an artist or a anyone in the creative field, it sort of helps you. Think about your journey as something that you take control of and make happen and yes. I think, I think that can be really helpful because for a lot of people when they're first starting out, it's sort of hard to know what to do or where to go or who to talk to, and yeah.

[00:20:07] Nicola Kinloch: So it's really, it's a really fabulous book and you can actually buy it with a a study book as well on Oh, so a 

[00:20:13] Teddy Smith: workbook with it? 

[00:20:14] Nicola Kinloch: Yeah. Workbook, yeah. 

[00:20:16] Teddy Smith: Oh, nice. That's what we teach people is help make a bit more money with their books, so 

[00:20:21] Nicola Kinloch: Ah, yes. 

[00:20:23] Teddy Smith: Well thank you so much for joining us. It's been great chatting and good luck with your next book launches and we'll speak again soon.

[00:20:29] Nicola Kinloch: Excellent. Thank you so much for having me, Jenny. Cheers. 

[00:20:32] Teddy Smith: Thank you so much for tuning into the Publishing performance podcast. I really hope you found today's episode inspiring. I love chatting to authors, writers, and people in the publishing world. Now, just before we wrap up, let me tell you about publishing performance, the number one platform for authors who want to increase Amazon book sales, but I'm not really sure where to start.

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