Alexa: [00:00:00] What's it actually like living on the road and being on tour, performing in some of the world's greatest venues, and maybe some of the worst? What are some of the highs and lows that you might share with your fellow artists? And how can we actually help prepare a singer for going on tour? This week we are welcoming Korel Tunador to the podcast.
Korel has toured over 40 countries, performing with artists like Katy Perry and The Goo Goo Dolls. Korel is also a singing teacher and he is here to give his insights to touring life and to answer some questions about what our singers might actually want to know to help prepare themselves for the road.
Korel, important questions first. What's it like having a Wikipedia page?
Korel: Oh, yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. I didn't. I guess I haven't pondered on that. I don't know the statistics on having one versus not having one. I don't know. But [00:01:00] I guess that shows you how often I looked at it, which has probably been a decade.
So I would, but it's horribly out of date. I wonder what it says about me . .
Alexa: I think it's just, you know, when you've made it, when Wikipedia's got a page about you.
Korel: That's funny. I should go. You're telling me that I'm not doing my due diligence as a, as an independent business operator that I don't know what the heck is on the internet about myself.
I guess. Um, say how many, how many crimes have I committed?
Alexa: Yeah. Only the four.
Korel: Okay. That's all right. Okay. With the four.
Alexa: You are an extremely versatile musician. You've toured the world as a singer and a multi instrumentalist, playing the guitar, piano, keys, saxophone. What's your earliest memory of music and getting into music?
And how did that then become a catalyst to pursuing a music career?
Korel: Well, that's a good question. Thank you. Um, I think of my early memories every so often. And in fact, the other day we were talking [00:02:00] about having a conversation about, like, where were your halcyon days? Where were those moments of your youth that were unencumbered by the burdens to come?
But that's not directly your earliest musical memories. My earliest musical memories, if I think about it, would probably be those childhood Eurythmics classes. , in a circle with the tambourines, you know, so much before there was, you know, there was always music being played in the house, but it was only my dad was only the classical station or the jazz station but not in a way of, Hey, check out this Coltrane solo more in a way of just like, that's what was played on Sunday in the house, which is a nice thing in retrospect.
Um, My musical environment was sort of very sequestered. So it was only what was played on the public radio station by my dad on the stereo that you weren't allowed to touch. Uh, only he was allowed to touch it. And then my older siblings, it was all of the eighties new wave bands. So I'd heard. All the tears for fears albums, a decade before I heard a Beatles album, [00:03:00] if you know what I mean, the gaps in what most, how most people come up or, or substantial and there's reasons which I don't want to belabor you with later while I'm actually okay with that.
Because when I discovered some of the classic songwriting of, that very formative to most people, I had already had a pretty thorough musical background. And so when I'd heard my first Beatles records all the way through, I was in my second year of music school studying jazz. And I was like, Whoa, they are that good.
Okay. I know it from, you know, it wasn't just something that was beat into my head as a kid. Like these are the bands you're going to like, which is what I'm doing to my kids. But, um, so my earliest memories were actually being sent to little music school. It's not like they, groomed me like a pro tennis player.
It was just that, that was the enriching activity that they. chose to have for us. Obviously it, while none of my other siblings, nobody was forced to go into the arts at all. And I'm the only one who, said music I'm going to play [00:04:00] specifically, my, my other siblings are musical and they, my sister's a writer, the whole thing, but it was just, it wasn't, it was provided as an enrichment.
Obligation. Much like you brush your teeth, you practice your piano, you go to soccer practice, you committed to soccer or football, sorry, you'd better, you're not quitting halfway through the season. It was more like that. So obviously that provided a, a framework, within which whenever I decided that I liked it enough to keep doing it, I certainly had, while they, they're not drilling theory into you as a kid, you definitely have, it's just part of the tapestry of how you view the world.
I, and that's a nice thing.
Alexa: Mm-Hmm. So even though you weren't necessarily forced into it, it was an enrichment thing. What did music bring you enough of that you wanted to pursue it for a career and perform professionally?
Korel: Well, that's a nice, another nice question. Thank you. I, at the time, I don't think I would have been able to answer that.
I think what it gave a kid is why everyone wants [00:05:00] to rock. It's that release that you don't have the vocabulary for at the time, which then you end up choosing to study real hard. So you develop that vocabulary, but it's still, it's a, it's a nonverbal way of emotional release. So I think that's what it, that's why everybody starts a band is because whenever you're all turned up and you're playing loud, and that could be even the thrill of playing in a symphony when you've got 30 people around you and there's this harmonic resonance going on, that's palpably you can feel the vibrations.
I think that is what we get out of music, which is. Basically the way I said it first is the nonverbal release of emotion that we may or may not have the tools to articulate at the time.
Alexa: You've performed with the likes of Katy Perry, the Goo Goo Dolls, and Jada Pinkett Smith. What's been one of the most memorable collaborative moments that you recall on those professional jobs?
Korel: Hmm. Well, they're all very different. So they're going to be very different anecdotes [00:06:00] like with. Jada, we would rehearse every day, you know, in the studio and, there was some collaborative writing and it was just, that was more of almost a little education for me because I'm not a heavy metal player.
Like I'm not interested in playing faster than Tom Petty or the Beatles could play. And someone like Tom Waits plays some sophisticated piano voicings. Cool. Let's get that going. But even though I've played in some, situations that demand a level of proficiency in articulation, I'll like rise to those occasions cause I know how to address them, but it's not where my heart really is you know. When I was in college, I played in some, I guess you could call them jam bands, but they're, pretty. articulate sort of prog rock bands with a hippie veneer, where it's okay, the drum is playing in 15 and we're playing in 11 and every so many bars we line up on the downbeat, like that sort of stuff.
It's super fun, but it's not where my communication of heart is. I'm just a songwriter, singer, songwriter, as I learned later, once I'd done all these things, trying to [00:07:00] find what turned me on, it was like, Oh, it's the simple songs. That's what gets me going. Right. I kind of veered off course by saying that All of these situations are going to have, unique memories attached with them, so for, with Jada's gig, it was more like I was playing with the people who were a decade older than me, who were highly proficient and I was like, Oh, okay. And the drummer's like, listen here, see how my kick drum is on the beat, but my hi hats pushing, but my snares laid back. I was like, Oh yeah, you're right.
Okay. Let's listen to even deeper, you know? Um, so it was more of the experience of really get into the minutia of the ensemble. Very cool. , and then of course, , what am I doing playing on a heavy metal tour? It doesn't add up, but it's cool. I got to do it. You know, with goo goo dolls, there was a lot of time on tour places I'd never been to, it's more of the experiences, there's a venue in America called red rocks, which is not familiar in the, in the UK as well.
It's. I don't
Alexa: know it, but maybe many listeners might
Korel: almost, almost anybody who tours or has [00:08:00] traveled, if you ask them, you know, that question, where are you like to play? And everyone's, you know, oh my gosh, that's a tough question - where was the last good gig? That's where I like to play, you know, like, where was it a good musical experience.
But Red Rocks is one of the world's most iconic venues in Colorado. It's not the hugest, it's about 10, 000 seats, but it's carved into the red rock Canyon. It's just it's a magical place. And U2 had their iconic live album under a blood red sky was filmed there. They had a video, like generations of rock musicians grew up with that YouTube movie, like that's where adults play.
Right. So places like that, or like getting to do, I've spent a couple of days at Abbey road, in the room doing video shoots and filming, , it's more about, those moments. That you're like, we're here, aren't we? And it's interesting too, because on a business sense, like when it comes to, um, writing your bio or promoting your business or what have you done?
It's funny because, , those things that you might have done that are really, really cool. [00:09:00] You can forget how cool they are because you're also trapped in a boring machine with 20 other people and everyone you see nine months out of the year has done the exact same cool stuff. So it's not that you didn't appreciate it, but that you forget statistically that it's a pretty, uh, privileged advantage .
Alexa: Yeah, it
Korel: was not recorded at Abbey Road. Okay, that's true. And not everyone's whatever, you know, that's, it's pretty cool. , when you think,
Alexa: and this is about like the 40 countries that you've been able to travel and perform in. And with the most amazing venues, I can only imagine that there were some horrors as well.
So what's something that comes to mind when you think this is a really difficult venue to play in, or maybe a really difficult place to stay on tour?
Korel: Oh, geez. I know. So you're going to ask me to excavate all the things I blocked and then I'll let you know how the therapy goes later.
I [00:10:00] mean, as far as anecdotally, sure, there's been times where, you know, you're playing an outdoor show, and here comes the rainstorm, and everything is just pelted in gale winds before the, you can even cancel a show or break down, and everyone's gear is still wet the next day, you know, things like that, , absolutely happened, or, you're off somewhere like 100 miles away from Barbados and, you know, you would never send your worst enemy to this hotel, you know, that there's, of course, there's many things like that, , you get, you're sort of making me wonder now what I've intentionally forgotten, , If I, if anything pops up, I'll just randomly shift the conversation.
They'll tell you how bad it's been though. Um, honestly, the hardest thing about a situation like that, traveling for a living is when one of the people who on some levels, you've all shared these highs together, whenever the lows get there in a personality context, and you're living with someone or people who are, or yourself, if people go through these cycles.
If [00:11:00] you leave home and don't come home for 12 weeks, there's people, you know, a few weeks of bliss, and then someone's doing this and someone energetically, and you're trapped in a bus for months, so being able to put up your shields personality wise, and keep your center of gravity, even if the people around you who, and I'm lucky in a sense that I've forged some very, very strong relationships and had many good learning experiences.
But I can promise you they weren't all positive. And when, when you're having not positive experiences about learning about yourself or other people's personalities, and you've still got seven weeks until you can go home, that's probably the most challenging thing.
Alexa: And how do you put up your shield? How would you help somebody else to adopt that too when it gets tough?
Korel: Oh, and by the way, to back up, if you are, when you were asking about the cool things, one of the coolest things I've done is when I grew up, there was the show MTV [00:12:00] Unplugged. , and then they brought it back. And when we were with Katy, we got to do an MTV unplugged and we arranged all of the songs acoustic.
So my buddy, Josh, who lives near me plays upright bass and brought the toy pianos and the glockenspiels. And that's actually one of the coolest things I've done. And it was so iconic to like, we're doing MTV unplugged. This is what, , Nirvana did, you know, it was very cool. But, um, so back to your question, how do you put up your shields?
And the answer is some people are naturally good at it. And I'm not, I'm not naturally good at it because. I'm so innately naive that I got into music because, hey, we're all going to make cool stuff together, right? That's,, when it isn't, when you have to blend that with your work reality or professional expectations your inner child gets sort of, , shut down pretty quickly. So I do have a friend who I traveled with for many years, who, so I'm giving you someone [00:13:00] else's success story, not mine. Right. But, um, this person was so affected by the toxic environment. That we had had a New Year's gig, the amount of holidays you miss being if you're in a touring situation.
It's it's crazy. , birthdays, holidays. , We had had a New Year's show and he basically a friend of mine basically had a panic attack after the New Year's show. And I stayed with him in their hotel rooms at like five in the morning. Like, do we need to call a doctor? Do we need to call a doctor? It turned out it was a, and over that next year, that person rearranged they're like, okay, I don't care anymore.
And like, not that you don't want to do a good job musically, but like, I can't afford to care about everyone else's mess and sort of re engineer got into, , some mindfulness practices. , so again, I'm telling you someone else's success because I, and that person later was able to be in the most toxic situations and just be like.
So that's a win for them. I've gotten better at it, but not for not in the way that maybe I [00:14:00] should, because still part of me this is not necessarily the best thing, but when you have to hold to your own center and not care about what's going on around you, sure, that's, that's a survival tactic and , you shouldn't have other people's negativity latching onto you. He, his mantra was water off a duck's back. It's water off a duck's back. Right. That's totally healthy and good. But part of me still feels if that's what's going on here, what like I'm still, I'm still much too much of a naive creative that whenever it becomes a job, like that's not why I got into it, , so I have, I have challenge balancing, like when we, when things are going well, yes. And I'm just an open book and a raw nerve. And so when the winds shift to suddenly like, Oh, I forgot this wasn't my utopian band of, you know, Aquarian brotherhood and sisterhood [00:15:00] where we're just going to go out and,, play our magic flutes and then the world will change, you know, the realities, of the pragmatic aspect of things are definitely a challenge to me because I just want to, I just want to make art.
Alexa: What's your top tip for maintaining optimal vocal health on tour? Cause I can imagine there's a lot of plane travel, which is quite dry and maybe there's the peer pressure to maybe drink alcohol. What would you say to clients about to go off on tour for that?
Korel: Yeah, well,, if you've hopefully you, you know, the people you're traveling with and sometimes when you start a new job, maybe you don't, , so the peer pressure aspect of stuff. I mean, I'm, I've been pretty fortunate where, any of the sordid tales of behavior you might hear isn't really the circles I've traveled in.
I don't know if that is like attracting like, or if that is just luck attracting luck. I'm not sure. , there's a song in there. Is it, you know,
Alexa: write it down.
Korel: I know, I know. But, I'm the flip side of that is, by the way, as you know, [00:16:00] Not every singer is sensitive in the same way.
So, , I tend to be very sensitive to hydration and to, humidity to some extent, but for me, it's mostly hydration and smoke. And I can't, those two, those ones like really affect me in a negative way. But things like, oh, no, no, I can't have a splash of creamer in the coffee that I shouldn't be drinking.
Those things, they're not even all scientifically borne out, but,, they don't seem to affect me. Whereas I'll just take other people's face value. They're like, I had some cheese earlier. Oh, to each his own. I can't speak to that. You know, , the hardest one, and hopefully I'm answering your question because my answer is kind of, I think it's to each his own and I don't always know the answer, but I'm absolutely. Drinking water to absurd amounts. , and I know there's even studies on that. , you know, like we don't actually need as much water as we think we need. There's been, , those, those hydration reports in the last year or so, I think. so maybe I'm over hydrating because whatever you drink your body's becomes accustomed to and then feels like it needs.
Right. [00:17:00] , airplanes, hydration,, all those things. But to me, mostly, as we all know, you need a certain amount of sleep to be optimal, and that is the challenging one, because that's not always in your control, , and , okay, we finished a show. You're off -maybe you're off the stage at 10:30 and we're going to leave in an hour and it's only a four hour drive something like the longer bus rides or the better touring in the UK can be really tough because nothing's that far away. But in the States, it's like, okay, we got 10 hours in the next city. So yes, we're going to sleep before we go to the hotel, as opposed to it's the disjointed sleep that's a tough one, or maybe having trouble falling asleep.
So everyone has their methods for me it's just an actual physical book is the best way for me to sleep. It's just physically tires my eyes out. Everyone's different. I don't even feel like I'm answering your question properly because I feel like, , it's kind of, you have to find what works for you.
Alexa: It's tailored, yeah.
Korel: Where your pressure points are as far as the things that affect you, you know. [00:18:00]
Alexa: Yeah, yeah.
Korel: And everyone's role is different too. If it's the pop star, they're also doing so much talking during the day. And, the backup vocalist who might be more schooled of a singer who also has a lighter load, so really very much depends on on your role and and the situations in which you find yourself.
We all know the answers. I could run down the laundry list of, well, there's the caffeine, there's the hydration, there's the dairy, there's the warmup, there's the, you know, but the reality that I've seen is there's so many more moving parts that it's way more unpredictable and, and every scenario and person is so different.
That's kind of how I see it.
Yeah,
I travel with my Neil med nasal rinse. Of course, I have keep those in the suitcase all the saline packets. So there's things you can do. Okay, do I have my mucinex glyphenosine in my in my toiletries kit? Yes, I do. Like the things that are reasonable and obvious.
[00:19:00] Absolutely do. Like, I wouldn't go on a long tour without the nasal rinse and the thing, and whether I'm doing it daily, I don't know, but whenever I start to feel, Oh, something's coming on, you're prepared, even something as like, we all know in this day and age and, , certain circles of thinking, nobody wants to be on antibiotics.
That's a, not a good thing, right? We all know that all the reasons for it, , gut health, everything. But if I'm on a long tour, I'll absolutely take a, do you guys call it a Z pack? It's like a five day antibiotic. It's like one of the most, it's not,, amoxicillin. It's not a penicillin based one, but I don't think it is, but it's basically I'll roll with an antibiotic in my suitcase and it might be five or six years before I would ever touch it.
But then you find yourself in the middle of nowhere, like Thunder Bay, Canada in February. And someone gets sick and you're prepared, that sort of thing.
Alexa: We spoke with the sleep doctor, Dr. Jill McGarry, recently, and she was saying how I think some footballers have been taking their own [00:20:00] mattresses and bedding when they go on tour to help them with a good night's sleep.
And she said that could be something for musicians, you know, they might not be able to have their entire mattress, but taking a pillow or some bed linen with the smell of home, so you have that. that comfort and you sort of trick your brain into thinking, yeah, we can sleep with this environment, especially in those crappy hotels.
And you think there's no way we're sleeping here, but if you've got something that's a home comfort, um, then, then it can be assisting. And we also spoke about the, the things that affect different people. , we both Dr. Jill McGarry and I both said how caffeine doesn't really do anything for us. Like I could have a cup of tea, like an hour before bed and I'm still out like a light, but for her husband, this.
No caffeine after 11 a. m. So it's, it's really kind of shifting through and kind of taking the stuff that works for you and the stuff that doesn't and building your own little protocol.
Korel: Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad my, my evasive non answer was consistent.[00:21:00]
Alexa: Part of this touring life might also be. You've had a gig the night before, you get to the next place, and you've got a performance on breakfast TV. How do you prepare for those early morning shows, after a gig the night before, vocally, mentally, energetically?
Korel: , , fortunately Almost any morning TV show where,, the lobby, you know, you call a lobby call when you'd be downstairs to be ready to go.
It's sometimes 3:30 in the morning, four in the morning. , Two things that are, well, one thing is that going on, on, on a heavy touring schedule. , and you know, there's many people have done many more things than I have, but if I look at the consistency of how long I've been away from home, I'd have to say I'm on the more seasoned end of the spectrum, probably, especially the organizations that I would play with. It wasn't, do you have it in the UK? There's, do you know what the term is? The Nashville schedule? There's
I've not heard
Alexa: of that, no
Korel: in, you know, Nashville where all the country tours are, they call [00:22:00] it the Nashville touring schedule where nobody in general, of course, everything's different, but in general, an act won't, we'll go out like Tuesday through Saturday, then you come home Sunday morning, everyone's back in the same hotel.
You'd take your Uber home and your home Sunday and Monday. Maybe Tuesday, then you go out Wednesday through Friday. So they do these weekend jaunts, which I remember in my, , misguided youth, like I, what, that's gotta be crazy. Why would you want, let's just go. . But actually you have half of your life in town where you're still maintaining contacts and you still can see your family and friends.
And that's such an, and now like everyone I know who's older is like, Oh my God. I wish we just had the Nashville type of schedule. Right. Um, due to the heavy nature of the touring that I've done, as I was saying, , probably heavier schedule than most people. There's people who've done harder than me. There's people who have never done it. , One thing that you get good at [00:23:00] is as much as I don't want to. When the alarm clock goes off, I'm just like in, in the military, like, okay, I'm ready to go, and not that I'm happy you're awake, but your body like does not accept, like, as we know, like, being late is not an option. It's a given that you can play. Hopefully,, to a certain level, or you wouldn't have gotten the job, whatever the demands of the job you're on, hopefully you can fulfill them, assume being nice and being on time, are probably the two, most important job requisites.
Um, So whenever your alarm goes off at 3:30 and you just had a gig in your New York city and you, you know, like, gosh, I saw my friends, everyone after the gig that I don't see, cause I live across the country, you know. They're like, Oh my gosh, lobby calls in three hours. Oh no, , but you still snap up and you get out of it.
Now everyone is half there in the morning. The actual gig and for a morning show specifically, the gig isn't usually for a few hours because you have to get to the venue. You have to, obviously go in and okay, let's sound [00:24:00] check. Then, , their line checking, you sound check.
Then there's another then, okay, come back in half hour for camera blocking. So it's quite a few hours. Maybe two or three hours before you actually play. And in those morning shows, you're probably playing one song. Or maybe you're doing one song and then the outro of the show. So it's not like you're doing a full gig in those mornings.
And that is very, , unfortunate. But, , there's no way around it. Sometimes it's, you just got to sort of buck up you know.
Alexa: For the lead singer, if they have finished a gig and it's midnight, and then their lobby call is at three, would you be advising? Go to sleep, or would you be advising just see it through?
Korel: Yeah, I, I would be advising go to sleep. , I don't think any good can come with like, what am I going to do to stay awake at this time? And I don't think that's a wise move. Obviously when you, when you sleep and you wake up, , your mucus is congealed and you're not, you know,, but hopefully if you're in a professional capacity, you have a, have a warmup routine I would, I would always personally.
You know, someone [00:25:00] can disagree, but I would, I would take the sleep when you can get it, for sure. Sure, if you wake up at three or four and go and do a show, but then, what happens then? You're done by 11 a. m. and you probably got a travel order or a show that night. So, I don't think the 24 hour, , awake sleep cycle would be very helpful.
Alexa: Yes, yeah, true. How can singing teachers best prepare clients for touring life?
Korel: , it's a good question, and Obviously all the resources we have nowadays because anybody doesn't know what's coming until they've done it. And every tour is different. The dynamic on every tour is different, right? So you, I think.
Maybe, with your clients, if that's something they're looking to do, whether it's a startup band, or if someone's being hired musician, or if they're doing a show, the amount of variables can be so great [00:26:00] that you, no one can be prepared, you have to, go with it as you go with it, but the things a singing teacher can do are obviously impart that information as well as the basics that we all know, like, Do you have a current warm up routine that will you will you not can you but will you carve out the time at the appropriate time to do it, , I would I would I would with clients and I've got several clients on tour, although they they're they're not newbies.
So they know all these same things. Maybe they don't know it from a vocal health perspective. So that's where we talk. , But
I would say building warm ups into the schedule like so. I know someone who for a nine o'clock show will warm up at 5pm on a very simple warm up. They're like, cool, I'm warmed up. And I'm thinking, Oh,
it's four hours till the gig, like, please, can we talk? Right.
But, I would be in groups where okay, the showtime is at nine o'clock.
[00:27:00] So look. Every day, 45 minutes before 8 15. That's when we warm up for 20 minutes, then everyone has 15 minutes to go get your ears on, do the thing, but you're still kind of in the zone. So I would say building the things that a teacher can help impart are let's make a list. Let's make a list on our on our phones right now.
What are the variables? Okay, hydration, warming up sleep. Let's make a list of where we can see the potential pitfalls down the road. Which is, it's not a rocket science list. It's all of the basics that we're discussing that pretty much anybody would know to ask, but how to navigate them when they come up is the challenge because it's going to, nothing, everything is asymmetric, nothing's going to come up with you at the same time you read on someone else's anecdote, it's going to be a different situation, , is your band a.
I don't know, are you, are you touring with a symphony and you're singing three songs for the Christmas show, in which case your life is going to be look very different than the alternative rock band who's playing at the academies. Are you in a band where you're loading your [00:28:00] own equipment in a van and a trailer, or are you in a band where you have technicians and you walk in everything set up?
Like your workload is very different on those days. , so therefore your, your hurdles. As far as okay, warming up hydration. I'm not yelling. I'm, you know, there's, like I was saying, it's, it's not, it's not a, uh, an easily predictable situation because everyone's journey is very different.
So I would just focus on for the, , this is a very long winded answer. I'm sorry. Again, I feel like I'm giving you all these evasive non answers, but the truth is, the truth is, is as we know in life, in fact, another anecdote, sorry for being sort of puetist here, but like, People who want to make it in music, right?
Read all of these autobiographies of famous singers and stars. They all have different stories. Nobody gets to the pinnacle of the mountain on the same road. It's like the road is burnt behind you.
You know what I mean? So, , it's more about keeping your balance as [00:29:00] you surf towards your destination than it is, following someone else's road.
So if someone's going on tour as a vocalist, as a coach, I would just want to make a list of all of the things that we can control and how, what is your plan for when that gets knocked off balance, a vocalist have they, I would, I would say if someone is not gone on tour yet, and if they're want to in this day of social media and videos, a lot of people, I have a feeling aren't singing live as much as they used to because, Hey, I don't need to go book a gig.
I'm making my video here. I'll send that out. And all these people liked it. Okay. I hope that works for you. What happens when you get an opener for some big act because they found you and you've never done a live show. I have a whole presentation on gig preparedness that I've done, that I've done for, for the Waterbear people.
And I do it on my own for people. I have like an hour long presentation on what could go wrong on a gig and how to avoid it before it happens. Right. And that's something maybe we should [00:30:00] talk about because it's really pertinent. What does a singer do who has no experience? When the monitors go out, who do they, you know, all of these sort of things, , that's the sort of thing I try to talk to people about as a coach, like, what can you control and how do you put it in a, in a system where it will happen and not be knocked off by the, by the variables of the day?.
Alexa: We spoke with a singer and BACP accredited psychotherapist and counsellor to musicians, Rachel Jepsen, recently, just a couple of weeks ago. And this topic was on the dark side of fame and how we can look after our artists working in the music industry. As a musician yourself and someone who's been around some really revered performers, what are the biggest challenges that you've seen them face. And what questions do you think that we need to continue to ask to ensure that musicians are safeguarded moving forwards? [00:31:00]
Korel: So this will be a generalization because again, everyone is so different, right? , the guy that I currently play with, Rob Thomas, , is one of the singly most Well adjusted people I know in my life aside from my he's been a band matchbox 20 They don't they don't travel in the UK as much But how many Grammys does the guy have and They'll go play the Hollywood Bowl and sell it out 20, 000 people like they're they're very And his solo career is almost as big,, so it's With all of that and his story, it's not like I'm telling secrets like his upbringing was, was, there was a lot of motion in his upbringing, right?
He wasn't though the white picket fence row house, , upbringing, he had a lot going on. And he's managed to be so well adjusted and kind, gracious person, right? It's not the norm. It's not always everyone's situation, right? Again, I'm going to this to the answer that it's going to be unique in every [00:32:00] situation.
There are definitely people and it's not even just, , some of the, , well known actors I might know, or, I know some well known comedians or actors or, high level singers and not, not just the ones that we're, we're talking about. So I don't want to make it seem like I'm spilling any one person's secrets, right?
One of the most challenging things, I think for a high level entertainer. Is that who do you trust? Because , I know situations where every single person that the artist, whether it's the actor or the singer, or just to say the artist. , which is that's a whole other word I have, I have a bone to pick with using that word because of the musicians, everyone involved, we're all artists, but it seems like the artist gets to be the one who signs the checks and they get to use the word artist and everyone else is just a
Alexa: No, I totally agree with you.
I totally agree with you.
Korel: My indie rock upbringing bristles when I hear the artist, you know what I mean? Because like, really? What were we all doing in our 20s you know? But, um, anyway, [00:33:00] , I know situations where every single person they come in contact is being paid by them on some capacity, in some capacity, so not almost nobody has a clean agenda, even if you, even if you don't care if you lose your job so your agenda really is clean, you can be honest there's people being honest, but everybody has on some level.
A motive to be there, right? So the advice and and I also have seen this with more than one, two or three or four high level, well known people is that there's almost these two facets. Where they're incredibly intelligent. I've not met, by the way, I've not met anyone at the top of their game who's not very intelligent, perceptive, right?
You know what I mean? So, , someone doesn't get, it doesn't happen by accident. , there's this whole grit, perseverance thing that is real as well as like, , canny decisions at some point, right? But, , [00:34:00] they can be so clear on what they want and inspired and driven, but at the same time, incredibly susceptible to what the last person's told them.
Right. And you'll see, you'll see some conversation happen, and then you'll see the artist using this certain vocabulary for the next 10 days that you're like, I know where you heard that. . And then all of a sudden, someone else says something, and the winds shift. Everyone has a blind spot, And I'm not even saying with Machiavellian intent, people are taking advantage, but I'm saying that
whether they know it or not, all the people around are some way advocating for what they feel like they need from a situation, right? So I think for a high level artist, it might be challenging to know who to trust. So, like, have, if, if you find yourself being a massively successful artist. [00:35:00] Congratulations.
And, , make sure you're in some social circumstances where it's not attached to your aim or your work. Cause a lot of people don't because your lives get so busy and chaotic. And then all of a sudden, Oh, , so and so in my family's on my payroll because they're doing my foundation work or they're on the road is my whatever. , I've known lots of family members on the road with people and sometimes it works great. And sometimes it works, but there's always this question, are you, are they being honest with you, or is it like, what the need to get through the gig this it's just it's murky. I think that would be the most challenging part.
Join a knitting club. I know a good online. I do I know a good online knitting club. We don't even have to pay to go to so if you're out there if you find yourself being a massively successful worldwide icon not knowing who to trust. Hit me up and I'll introduce you to my for free knitting club friend.
Alexa: I'm just pressing the pause button on the podcast for a very brief [00:36:00] moment to invite you to book your free BAST call. If you've been thinking about joining the BAST community through one of our courses but you just don't know which option is the best for you, Then why not book your free Zoom chat with our very own Kimberley George, who has all the answers.
Head over to basttraining. com forward slash bookacall forward slash and click that big blue button. That's basttraining. com forward slash bookacall forward slash.
Now, where were we? So what led you to becoming a singing teacher then?
Korel: That is a good question. , I had taught some guitar in my misspent youth.
No. Um, but I found that, and I wasn't even, I don't, I ended up teaching guitar for a couple of years on a fluke because I didn't study guitar ever. I studied saxophone and piano, , and, but obviously I had a head around the musicality. So when I found myself realizing that, wow, I'm playing jazz saxophone, but I actually am [00:37:00] called to play singer songwriter music, pop rock, whatever, rock and roll music. I should be playing guitar and singing. So I started playing guitar and singing. And I was lucky that my first bands were, buddies who were a little older than me, but supportive, not like, no, no, stay in your lane. I'm the singer.
And this man was like, yeah, let's get to do it. Right. So I had, I was very fortunate with some of my early, , no name, indie bandmates, , that, yeah, we can all be singing. And I, I took to it. Right. So I found myself over a couple of years. Becoming much more of a singer. And I was always tended to be the guy.
And this turned into later on hired touring jobs., I was kind of fell into being the guy who, just like, okay, guys, by the way,, did you notice that we're all starting, we're not ending the phase in the same place. What, where do you guys want to end it? Where should we end it together?
Or you're saying. Love he's saying love. Like what's, what's the sound of the, I was always that guy. Right. And, , I'm, I guess not to toot a horn, but like I happen to be [00:38:00] compared to some people, like really quick with harmonies and if we want to do some counterpoint, I can just sort of see it and we can work it out really quickly.
So I just kind of always fell into the role of, not vocal producer arranger, but just the guy, like, what should we do? I have an idea. You know what I mean? That sort of thing. , And when I got into teaching guitar, it was an afterthought. Someone literally guitar store said, Hey, I'm quitting the job. You want to take over?
I was like, sure. I don't know how to teach guitar. Right. But what I found was. In almost two years of teaching guitar, it was energy sucking because people think they want to learn to play guitar, but don't. And you end up babysitting for 30 hours a week, except for those three students who were actually there to learn something.
Right. So I was so burnt after maybe, I don't remember how long it was, maybe 18 months, two years. I was just like, no way. Teaching is not a good gig. It just makes me feel exhausted. I was just want to focus on playing. Right. It was just one of those things in my early 20s. The band wasn't making money yet.
Let's, you know, I gotta have a job. , [00:39:00] I ended up getting touring for a long time. And, , basically I was trying to find a way off the road. If you find yourself going on tour a lot. Not everyone mentions. This would be a sage piece of advice for anyone early in their career who wants to go on the road.
What's your exit strategy? I think I mentioned earlier the gigs that I was doing. It was, it wasn't, I think I was, was going to reference the Nashville schedule where people are your home. Sunday, Monday and Tuesday on Wednesday, you'll meet the bus goes out. You have a Thursday, Friday, Saturday gig, you come home.
That is I scorned that early in my career when I just wanted to see the whole world, but now in my, you know, ripe old 80s, I'm just like, that is the ideal. You have a home life, you have a work life, you know, you can still be in home writing with people. If you find yourself in the tour, like I was doing where you're, Going out for 12, 13 weeks, you're coming home for a week, you're going out for another six weeks, you're all of your momentum in the town you live has gone because people assume you're not there even when you [00:40:00] are right.
It's really challenging. And then when you want to be off the road, you're starting from square one. So myself, especially as we had our first daughter, I was like still gone and there was how well. We've, this is my job. How do we, right? , and it turns out that, , John, the singer from the Goo Goo Dolls was taking voice lessons from all of our, we all know Dave Stroud, our friend in, in LA.
And he was just like, , this guy, he has this like teacher, he'll like teach you how to be a singing teacher. We should do that sometime. He thought it was like a class that was taught. And which is not exactly the case, because we would always say like, we should go to school to learn how to build a guitar.
Wouldn't that be cool? We take a six week course. We can learn those skills. That'd be cool. Yeah, we should do that. , it's just one of those conversations. So he was taking lessons. Just as a, as a professional singer getting his habilitation. , so he doesn't need rehabilitation, right?
Um, he was like, you know, he has this program where he teaches people how to teach. We should do that. Ha ha. And I was just like, what did you say? It was honestly a light bulb moment. , and [00:41:00] so he introduced me and Dave was gracious enough to mentor me for a couple of years. And so I had never, so I'm someone who has a music theory education.
You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of the resume boxes kind of could be checked whether I live up to them or not. I can at least check the box, right? So I've, I've done those things, but I promise you, and you, you, you won't be surprised to hear this, but in 20 some years of playing professionally, I absolutely never would have heard the words voice and science in the same conversation.
And I know some of the high level voice coaches out in LA and wonderful people. Some of them, , wonderful people, but very personality driven. And I don't even have to, you won't know what I'm, what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that thing where someone's like helping people and even, , other voice coaches I know in other cities, like they're genuinely helping people, but it's maybe from how it's just, , it's by, it's by, uh, [00:42:00] folk.
I, when I say folk wisdom, I don't mean in the sense of. Style, but in the sense of taught by how you were taught. And this is what worked for me. And let me help you. And they're helping people, but obviously, as we know, all of the empirical things that have happened in the voice world in the last 20 years, it's a whole, it's a whole, it's a seismic shift that is, was, was never happened in, , being that voice and percussion are the first instruments that.
You know, Neanderthals ever invented, you know, there's been never been a shift in our understanding. Like there has been the last 20 years, obviously. Right. So when I was introduced and I was like, this, it was a light bulb moment. Like, this is something that can be done at a high level and has an empirical basis.
It's not just, how do you feel what, , that's a big part of it. Sure. But, but there was an actual, an empirical basis to this. I was, it was honestly just like a eureka moment. And so, , Dave was, , gracious enough to, to mentor me. And I was, I was basically thrown into the world and I took a BAST class.
[00:43:00] Um, I, I chose, I don't know how you're doing it right now, but I chose to do because certain things. Like I didn't need to learn my key signatures and my scales and this and that but I needed to learn more about the anatomy so I did the one on one if you're still doing that I chose to do it instead of a group at the time.
Because I just knew I wanted to not spend three weeks on stuff I knew but I needed to spend five weeks on the stuff I didn't know you know so I was, I took a bass class I mentored with Dave started teaching. And then I, that's whenever I had, I'm not looking to go on the road anymore. I want to just be teaching and doing my, personal music.
, but the guy, Rob, that I play with now, after about a year of trying to build the business, it was, he was like, Hey, by the way, I'm looking for someone, would you do it? We need another multi guy. I was like, you're too good of a person. It's too good of a job. Of course I will. So, , it's lighter, it's a more of a lighter duty tour.
So you can still maintain, you're world. Right. And because as I was saying earlier, , Rob, who I play with, he's [00:44:00] very, , he's done very well for himself and his, he's got, , any of his boxes have been checked on his professional career. Right. But it's a sparse enough gig.
Like we had two gigs last weekend, we'll have one in January, and then next year we'll do a proper summer tour, we'll go to Australia, we'll do all this stuff, but then he'll go to his other band and we'll do family. No one depends on it. You see what I'm saying? It's a great job, but no one has the golden handcuffs where people show up to that job because they want to be there.
Because it's good music with good people. It's such a wonderful situation. , so I got into voice coaching because I didn't want to travel anymore, but I didn't know how to make the transition and when I got introduced to an empirical way of doing this,, as far as a basis of understanding, I had never conceptualized that before.
And the more I got into the world and all the people I've met through Vocology in practice and through BAST and through. This community, I [00:45:00] was, I was like, holy cow, I didn't know this existed. , It was just really, really a great thing. And what I found that the clincher is that as the reason I mentioned the guitar lessons earlier, and I know I'm very long winded, I apologize.
The reasons I mentioned the guitar lessons earlier is because it felt energy sucking like babysitting. But as I quickly learned, nobody goes to voice lessons by accident. So you never have someone who doesn't want to be there because you can't, no one gives you a hundred dollar guitar. And you go to voice lessons, but don't want to go to lessons.
Don't want to be there. That doesn't happen with singing. Someone has to be like, this is something I want to learn. I've got all of the internet and all the people I'd like to study with you. They clearly want to be there. So the energy has is overwhelmingly clean and positive
Alexa: people might be listening to your story and expect that your clientele are high level professional touring musicians and some of them are.
But we spoke recently with Molly McLindon on the topic of [00:46:00] specializing and niching and you haven't niched necessarily you you. invite skill levels, all skill levels. So why is that? Why have you chosen to, to welcome everyone?
Korel: , what a compliment hidden in your question. I mean, I haven't been teaching voice for 30 years. It's been 17,, I don't know, six or seven. , can I just choose to niche like that? I guess if I was doing with. If it was like, I'm going to teach kids theater, that's my niche, or I'm going to teach, , throat singing. That's my niche. That would be choosing a niche, but for, to say, I'm only going to teach successful rock and roll musicians, right?
That's, that's not like a niche. You can necessarily just choose unless you have massive financial backing to turn everyone else away. , so I don't, I don't know that I have like my niche is. If I had to pick a niche right now, and I do have some, , successful, , people touring the world. , one of my clients is on tour with Niall Horan's [00:47:00] band and, , there's professionals out there, , that I work with and I love, , I was just, just on a lesson before this call with, , With, uh, how old is he?
I don't even know how old he is. He's like 20, maybe college kid who's studying music in college. So, , he wants to be there for voice and I'm helping him with this theory, you know, like, what are they not teaching you in your classes? Like, so my niche is who wants to be there, right? And if I had to pick a musical niche, I'm definitely more of a singer songwriter.
So I find that when people are working on it, quite, quite a few of my clients, it's okay. We're working on our original songs. Okay, let's, let's work on marrying the piano part to your voice, , or let's work on the guitar. Have you noticed that maybe you could do this voicing here or, , maybe we should, maybe we should not take the melody up on the chorus until the third chorus.
And so there's a lot of singer songwriter, , that would be a niche that I feel like. Is sort of where I am anyway as a person, and so those people might tend to gravitate towards me, , , [00:48:00] I've got quite a few adults,, older than me who are, , I have one of my favorite clients is a really high level psychologist and he plays purely for fun.
He does some local gigs where he lives, it's all on zoom. Of course, , he does local gigs where he lives and he has jams at his house almost every week. It's like purely his outlet and his passion. And there's, I wouldn't think of saying, you're not my typical cause his energy, like my niche is, are we excited about what we're doing?
And I, I, that might be like a bad business answer for finding your avatar. I'm totally aware. But
Alexa: it's so much so relates to your what you said all throughout this is like actually your hearts and in how you described it as being the naive musician. It's just in the excitement of making the material and how you how you totally agree with everyone being able to call themselves as an artist.
So it just is really consistent with how you [00:49:00] show up.
Korel: Oh, thanks. That's nice. Thanks for saving me. Terrible day after this.
Alexa: I was going to ask, actually, on, on following on from that, as a multi instrumentalist, being someone who plays guitar, piano, and the saxophone, we spoke with Jennie Morton, an osteopath, and music.
You love Jennie?
Korel: She lives not too far from me.
Alexa: She's the best.
Korel: I love her.
Alexa: She's the best. And she, she's come on podcasts a couple of times and one particular episode was on, um, finding anatomical efficiency as a musician. And I just wondered in your experience, do you notice that one of the instruments that you play has more of a vocal effect for you or a vocal impact on you?
Korel: So I don't know about vocally, if it was to be vocally, I would think that for me, the easiest one would be the piano. , saxophone doesn't count well, because unless you're doing a gig where I've done actually, I [00:50:00] should, it's not entirely true when in my, before I really learned how to play guitar. And I wasn't really playing keyboards professionally.
That was just something that was just brought in. Cause I could to my jobs like, Oh, I can do both. Sure. I'll be that guy, you know? , but back when my only, , real instrument, , when I was like 17, 18, 19 years old, it was saxophone. I did. Hundreds and hundreds of gigs where I was singing and playing saxophone.
So of course it's hanging on your neck all night. Right. Um, so I, I should actually rephrase and say that I do have that experience of the third of that instrument. , Piano, I think would be the most easiest and neutral guitar and saxophone and other things. And, , Jenny can, clarify that, but like, it's really just how they hang on your body and your neck angles, you know, , it's not ideal, but also I find myself not being a purist about such things.
Because, okay, if, if you're, I don't like it, like my neck, absolutely, neck pain, whatever. , I've had lots of wrist pain over the years. This is not directly singing, but it's [00:51:00] just the ergonomics of what we do, right? , best thing for this pain is getting a road crew when you're no longer carrying all these.
That was, it almost went away as soon as I was, had professional jobs, my wrist pain almost evaporated. As it pertains to singing. , again, maybe I'm not having the best answer, but , should we always be standing when we sing? Yes, of course. And this and that, although at one of our seminars, I had asked a reading specialist and like, well, I mean, what I'd thought all along anyway, it was like, well, your legs aren't part of that system.
So it's not about sitting. It's about, are you slouching when you sit, sure. If I'm playing on a gig, I'm going to be standing, but when I'm tracking vocals at home, I'm doing it right at this desk. I'm actually more so many people. Make their records from a sitting stance.
Now that we're in the era of people producing their own records, right? I don't think there's, I think there's many ways to skin a cat. So I think it's about, do you know, to even ask the question?
Yeah.
You know, to ask the question, [00:52:00] then, you know, to look at, well, where am I right now? Oh, I'm slouching.
Alexa: Yeah, and I think posture and alignment and, breathing, everything kind of gets confusing in, in a lot of ways, but what we're searching for really is that we have anatomical efficiency, i. e. is everything flexible enough so that if for whatever reason you are in a position playing a particular instrument on stage and in a particular posture, that you can still make those sounds because other bodily parts are available to you, not so much that you have to have ear over shoulder over hip over knee over ankle.
It's just a case of can we find the most flexible, buoyant, but ready position regardless. Of whatever you might be doing so that you can be efficient in all ways. And I think that's, that's been quite instrumental to me to kind of reframe why we're training posture, why we're training certain [00:53:00] things in the breath system.
Korel: It comes again to like almost everything I've said today, which is, what is the exact circumstance and those are the, those are the variables. But they're not going to be the same like what if I was such a pure singer and I'm a, I'm a backup singer, and then I will only do what I've been taught, and then someone hires you and says okay we're doing an unplugged situation everyone, bring a stool to the front, I don't sing sitting down like it's just not real.
Yeah,
Alexa: exactly. Yeah. So, if you think about the future and how you. continue on as a singing teacher. How would you sum up your goal as that singing teacher for people?
Korel: My goal for my own personal business or my goal as that, as that singing teacher for people, like my goal for people would be just to be so much better at what I'm doing.
Even if there's a winning circumstance where I didn't know an answer, but I knew what to try and it paid off. Well, I [00:54:00] wish I would have just known the answer. You know, I just wanted to know more, , I just need to be better is the truth. That's the honest answer. , and obviously that's again, my freaking evasive non answers.
That's so doesn't give a specific. But, the reason I do the VIP classes or, you know, all of our friends were teaching and the reason I took BAST in the first place is because my one. Saving grace or strength has always seemed to be, I seem to have a crushingly keen awareness of what I don't know.
, and you know what is tough in this, this world is one of the reasons nowadays that I feel like imposter syndrome is warranted is because not only do I not know, and I'm keenly aware. But also I'm friends with some of the world's leading voice coaches between all of our friends that, , anyone you've, , I don't know everyone on your podcast, but I know who they are and I can listen to the pod and they're within reach.
I know I could email [00:55:00] them or some of our friends, whether it's Line or, or anybody, I know some of the world's leading voice coaches. So I'm going to measure myself against them. And now I'm back down to the, to the, to the Padawan status, you know? So that is tough is like, I think if I were to practice what I preach.
Well, I think this is the other thing is in the lesson, I think I do. I try to meet people where they are, and I'm actually comfortable and fun. But as soon as the lesson's over, and I think, Oh, gosh, what did I, why didn't who know? That's in the space where I'm just like, Oh, gosh, like, I should just be given this stuff away.
Because I'm grasping at straws. You know what I mean? Um,
Alexa: I totally hear you. I'm there with
Korel: you. Yeah. So in those instances, a wise person would say, , are you enjoying the journey? And do you know what direction you're headed, even if you don't know what lies around the corner? Okay, just Point your, [00:56:00] make sure your compass is pointed north and just try and help people along the way.
So that's like a balance that I should have if I wasn't the total psycho about it.
Alexa: Well, Korel, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Where can people find out more about you and get in touch?
Korel: Oh, , I guess if they have the access to the internet. Well, the nice thing about me is. There's only one of me in the world.
So if you can spell my name, which might be a tall order, , then you can, it's just my name koreltunador.Com, email through there or any of the social media stuff, , I'm the most, probably one of the single most easiest people to find if, if it mattered. And
Alexa: if not, just check out his Wikipedia page.
It's got all you need to know.
Korel: I got to check that out, see what I'm going to do.
Alexa: Korel Tunador, thank you so much for your company.
Korel: Thank you so much. I appreciate it very much