Alexa: [00:00:00] You may remember that a few months back we had singing teacher and MDH breathing coordination coach Lucinda Allen on the podcast talking about how to fix our inhale to transform our singing. Well good news, Lucinda is back and this time helping us focus on our exhale, setting up that all important airflow and pressure relationship, exploring the idea of absorption for breath support and much more.  

Lucinda Allen, as I promised, I've dragged you back. We spoke about two months ago on optimizing the inhale, and now we're back to focus on the exhale. But how have you been in the meantime? 

Lucinda: I've been really good, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me back. It's a, um, I loved speaking to you before. 

And, yeah, , I'm just thrilled to talk about , this kind of topic. , and to share and learn more. So thank you for inviting me back. , I've been good. , and I love doing these kinds of things. , so [00:01:00] here we go. Yeah.  

Alexa: So first things first then. Last time I asked you what are some of the common challenges that you see in singers when it comes to the inhale. 

But what do you see on the opposite side then? What are the most challenging things that people face when it comes to the exhale for singing?  

Lucinda: Yeah, so with the exhale, I mean, , we live in a fairly stressful world, don't we? With lots of things happening and lots of things going on around us. And, , there tends to be For me, when I'm working with singers, um, a slightly faster exhale, this kind of sense of, , wanting to maybe drive the air, whether it be just in breath or when it comes to them voicing, that there tends to be a common theme of seeing and hearing singers driving a little bit more air, so , the speed of the air is faster, the volume of the air where we're actually Kind of, , expelling, , quite a lot of air, which is telling us that we potentially [00:02:00] could be taking in quite a lot more air than we need. So this is kind of like imbalanced with the big inhale. We then have this, , large volume of air to expel. 

So I tend to see most, it's quite a big statement, but a lot of the singers I work with, , really driving and sending more air than is functionally optimal, I think is the best phrase.  

Alexa: Just reflecting then from the inhale conversation last time, you just mentioned there about seeing singers take in probably too much air. 

So how do we know how much air we actually need for the vocal task?  

Lucinda: Hmm, yeah, so actually we always have enough air in us to be able to make a sound. I mean, if you were walking along the street and someone walked out in the road, You would likely not go Stop, you would probably just go. Oh, let me get rid of all that air. 

Hang on. There we go. That's better. You'd probably do You wouldn't even think about the inhale. , the air is within us [00:03:00] to be able to make those, , vocal commands. And that's, I think part of our, , makeup to be able to, , sort of survive. It's actually probably a survival mechanism to be able to respond to that quickly. 

So actually, , I think we sometimes underestimate how little amount of air it takes for the vocal cords to be able to vibrate and make a sound and if that coordination of the airflow and the vocal cords is not balanced then we're not going to necessarily be able to get that lovely cord closure and connection in the cords that we want. 

We're either going to get the air the cords blown apart by all of that fast moving air, or they're going to want to contract and squeeze together to try and maintain that function to be able to make sound, but they can't because of that, , huge, uh, flow of air that we don't necessarily need. So yeah, I think actually just reminding that we need way less than we think we, , than we . And actually a lot of that is also [00:04:00] connected to, um, the sort state that we might feel in psychologically as well. I think when we feel anxious, we feel, , uncomfortable in a situation. We tend to hold the breath or we tend to increase airflow. So I think we have to be mindful that um, we're not moving closer to a place of mirroring the, , the fight or flight state, actually, so that we're actually telling our body that we're safe when we're breathing , and we're exhaling rather than we're in a place of danger.  

Alexa: In your opinion, what exactly are we trying to achieve when we're breathing and exhaling for singing? 

You mentioned there about this marriage between the air and the muscles, so what are we actually trying to produce?  

Lucinda: Yeah. So when we're exhaling, um, in the words of MDH breathing coordination, , we ideally want a slow, steady outflow of air. [00:05:00] We often in a breathing exercise think about the air going this way in and out, but actually I think, like we were saying in our previous conversation, not just thinking about what the air is doing in for two, out for four, in for four, out for six, actually what's the body doing in that process of the exhale, um, the inhale and the exhale in this case. 

So, , I would always encourage people to actually listen in, you know, we said about listening before, listening with our hands to what the body is doing when we exhale and coming back to what we want optimally. So, , when we exhale and we have the slow, steady outflow of air, ideally we want the slow, steady movement of the body or the function of the body as well. 

And as soon as we get a sudden movement or jolt, for example, when we put our hand on our chest and we feel the chest go, we can almost certainly [00:06:00] connect that idea of fast movement, of body with fast movement of air. And the reason we want that slow, steady outflow of air is because we want the vocal cords to be able to do that lovely connection we talked about a moment ago, without being disturbed too much by that volume and speed of air. 

And of course, We have the body, we have the space that the air travels through, the vocal cords, but we also have that space above the vocal cords, which, if the air is travelling too fast, cannot be, um, used in the most acoustically positive way. So, if the air goes really fast, we almost don't have time to allow it to spin in that space, which some people call the filter or the resonators. And it almost explodes out through into the world. And I really love that idea of, you know, once the voice has left your lips or the air has left your lips you [00:07:00] can basically do nothing with it. You're in the hands of the sound engineer, , or the room that you're in. If you're in a beautifully resonant room, then there is acoustic potential in that space but as a singer, once it's left here, we can't do much with it, but if the air is slow and it's allowed to resonate and move in all these lovely spaces, then we have more choices to be able to optimally boost the sound. and resonate the voice. So that's why it's really important. We have that slow, steady outflow of air  

Alexa: in that slow, steady outflow is there an order that you would be encouraging in the body? I E the belly is going to lead the exhale followed by the ribs followed by et cetera. Or would you expect that to sort of be happening simultaneously?  

Lucinda: Again, I'd go back to putting the student or the client's hands on their own body or in some cases, I feel that movement and ideally, [00:08:00] yes, we would want this kind of coordinated approach. 

I think when we see one part of the function of the exhale happening quite dramatically, , out of balance, like for example, if we see a really big contraction in the stomach. area in the core area. Or if we see a real collapse in the chest, then we can say that perhaps that , exhale function is not, um, coordinated as, , optimally as possible. 

So yes, I think, , keeping an eye on that one area, doesn't dominate that process. We want ideally a balance to be able to serve that slow steady outflow of air and but in terms of order. it's actually quite different for each individual because , I would see and listen to where they describe that coming from first and then go back to that idea of, well, if we are getting a slow, steady outflow of, oh, that's a mouthful, slow, steady outflow of air, um, from the client or the [00:09:00] student, , with the coordination that they've got, then I would use that as a start point, I think, rather than trying to rearrange their process, if it's actually, serving them with that slow, steady outflow of air.  

Alexa: And let's take a dancer, for example, where we often see that the abdominal wall is kind of sucked in and held like they're ready to do a good barre class or something. If that belly is not available on the inhale as part of that 360 expansion, what sort of problems could we run into in the exhale where belly is no longer available? 

So exhale is given over to the remainder in the ribs, the chest and the back.  

Lucinda: Yeah. So, , in the exhale, there is a, , a sense of, , different, , directions of movement, I suppose. So actually in the case of the dancer, I'd be interested to know where they are. [00:10:00] So, , I think you stated , that they were perhaps doing a little bit more in their abdomen already. 

Is that what you were suggesting?  

Alexa: Yeah. If they were held, um, in the core and their belly was sucked inwards.  

Lucinda: Yeah. I think then. That would then make me think that we perhaps wouldn't have the, um, so we actually do want some kind of, , gentle contraction as we go through the exhale as well. 

We do have, , that kind of all the way around the body as well. And if they're already very contracted at the front, that's going to be making me think that there's that sort of slight lopsided approach. So I think there I would, , consider getting , some release for that particular performer, but it can go the other way as well can't it that we're, we have completely no, , awareness of the release and contraction potential in that area. So with the dancer, with the idea of the front of the body, I think more. Uh, but I do tend to notice when people are very core dominant, whether it be release or [00:11:00] contraction, , or a bit of both, they're actually going back to, , looking a little bit higher up the body. 

So looking at what the ribs are doing there can sometimes be helpful.  

Alexa: There is that age old argument, isn't there? Is it belly in or is it belly out? As you exhale, what would happen if we kind of push the tummy outwards instead of allowing that contraction? Um, what happens in that scenario when actually the belly is encouraged to swell outwards when we're exhaling?  

Lucinda: So, I think I'll probably, I might speak at it the other way around actually a little bit in terms of what we're wanting from the ribs and the dome of the diaphragm. And then I think that will help inform that question. So, on that exhale, we want the ribs to descend and lengthen. And then the dome of the diaphragm is going to be going up. 

So we get this kind of like double dome effect. So the ribs going down. Diaphragm going up, and it's that sort of double dome [00:12:00] glide that we call in MDH breathing coordination. And if the front of the body is doing perhaps more pushing and pulling than it needs to, it could interfere with that, , glide, , of the ribs descending and the diaphragm going up. 

So, , that's why we really want to think about it being, Uh, a 360 panoramic thing. So I think by doing more with the stomach than you need, you could actually be interfering with that glide, but you could also be adding additional pressure, , than, , necessary. I was actually speaking to a singer about this earlier, that sometimes when they think really low, it actually moves them so far away from the area which they deeply connect with, which is this particular area. 

So, , that's why I feel like the distribution of movement on the exhale is really important. And I think any one area that's got extra pressure, , associated with it [00:13:00] can, , well, pressure only can only go one way in the body and that's out. And that's not necessarily going to serve or help us with our slow, steady outflow of air. 

Alexa: The relationship between airflow and pressure is inverse. It's this opposite thing, which can be quite confusing. So more airflow equals less pressure and less airflow equals more pressure. So when it comes to exhaling with voice compared to without voice, what does that mean in terms of how we're going to start thinking about pressures? 

Lucinda: That's a really good question. So when we exhale without any voice, we don't have that closure with the cords. So we have a clear pathway, , for the air to travel in. And , on that journey, when there is no, closure from the cords. We're just letting the air slowly and steadily escape. 

The ribs are descending, the diaphragm's going up, we get that lovely double dome, and we can of course blow more air if [00:14:00] we want to, but, um, the main difference when we come to voice of course is that the vocal cords close, and then we get these periods of time where , , The air is of course, slowly and steady, moving out of the lips and into the world, but we have this pressure then that goes back the other way, , which is often, , felt by singers, , under the vocal cords, that sort of subglottic air pressure as some people call it. 

And that's where we start to feel potentially the air pressure, that's going up and down. The retro air pressure that's going back, sort of like sitting under the cords. So we have a little bit of air going this way, but we have quite a lot more going this way, which we have to manage. , and when we sing the ribs descend, the diaphragm goes up, but we have potential if the body is flexible to actually absorb some of that air pressure, and that was really foundational for me when I learned more about the MDH breathing coordination method, because I was, as [00:15:00] a singer, getting quite frustrated with feeling tight, muscularly finding things weren't particularly helping me of knowing how to manage this pressure. So I was going up into these parts of my voice around the sort of belty high chest area where we were building subglottic air pressure, feeling like it was all going around here and just not really know how to move it away from the cords so that they could dance around and create the resonance that I wanted. , and it wasn't until I engaged with this work quite a few years ago now where I realised that yes, there is an air pressure going back, but we can actually do something with that air pressure. We don't, , have to just, , contract like we can actually absorb or expand as MDH calls it absorption, which is, and it's probably easier to describe actually with an exercise. Um, So if you, if we go to that area of the body that we went to before, we were putting our hands, weren't we on our top ribs. 

So remembering that the top ribs start just [00:16:00] below the collarbone, , and, , just putting your fingers one side of your sternum and your thumb, the other, and just imagining that you were blowing up a balloon. So that kind of pressure, 

Lucinda: and we're going to do it on off so you can feel the difference. 

Lucinda: So when we do that exercise, do you feel anything happening under your hand, a direction of movement, or you might need to do it again if you're listening to this call now to, to check. Now I've asked that question, but is there any initial thoughts from you on that direction?  

Alexa: Yeah, it seems to make the chest inflate a bit more. My chest seems to come up and I feel in my tummy coming in a bit.  

Lucinda: So that is what we might call like , a sign of some absorption in those top ribs. So those top ribs are responding to the air [00:17:00] pressure that's going back when you sing. We're just using this as an example. So those top ribs are flexible enough on you to be able to absorb, yay, win, to be able to absorb the air pressure that is going back. 

Now, quite often I see singers that are not able, don't have that flexibility there, and what's actually, it's manifested in is voice fatigue, voice loss, they've lost parts of their range because they're Potentially, this is the hypothesis for some situations is that they haven't had the flexibility in their body to absorb the air pressure away from here because this has gone hard because of their posture, because of their, , choices of how they're using their body. 

And it's, , become. inflexible. So it can't absorb the air pressure. So the air pressure has to go here. And, , there's , a nice sort of a way of explaining this. I think , if you think of your ribs, like a baseball glove and the ball as your air pressure going back, [00:18:00] if your ribs. Just, um, don't move with the force in motion, which is your breath. 

The air pressure will likely go towards the ribs and then back very quickly under your vocal cords. So your slow, steady outflow of air is not slow and steady anymore. Whereas if your ribs are like that a baseball glove that is moving in the same direction as the force in motion. It can slow down the airflow and slowly release the airflow back up so that when you sing, it can resonate in this space for longer before you expel it. 

Alexa: And when you're doing that balloon exercise there, would you feel the other parts of the body as well, like we did before and check that those areas are also as flexible?  

Lucinda: Yeah., that's a great observation. , if you put your, the back of your hand behind you, sort of around the center of the back, , Just checking that you're not arching your back or, , [00:19:00] collapsing. 

I'm sure you're not, Alexa, but you know, just, I am a  

Alexa: Quasimodo at many times,  

Lucinda: just for anyone listening. , and, uh, just do the same thing. So we're going to do the balloon exercise. It's as if you're blowing into a balloon.  

Alexa: I feel like I'm like fanning myself on a hot day.  

Lucinda: Are you blowing a bit too much air? I just was then actually, as I started doing it, but.  

Alexa: Yeah, it's interesting because I don't feel as much there. I feel a little bit, but , it's nowhere near as much As the chest.  

Lucinda: Right. So this tells us a lot about each individual person that support system is, this is what I call support. , managing air pressure away from vocal cord level is that wherever you feel movement is where you have access to your support system. So if you're not feeling lots of [00:20:00] movement in your thoracic spine, so the middle part of your spine, the likelihood , is probably some little habits in your, , that are inhibiting some movement there and therefore inhibiting the support system. 

So it's not like your support system is broken. It's just maybe not as optimised as it possibly could be. , and just remembering that because we have that lovely connection all the way down the spine with our ribs, we have Possibility for movement all the way down, wherever you have that connection between a rib and the spine is a possibility for movement. 

So we could actually absorb all the way through the spine and the ribs. , and even right up into the little ribs that are in your armpit. I think a lot of people forget that they have ribs up in there. , but there's possibility for movement there as well, which, , It's really exciting for some people, I think, when they're kind of , feel like maybe they can't access support. 

Well, , it's there. It's just we have to free these parts of the body up for you to be able to fully, , use them in their function of absorption, which is a very [00:21:00] natural function. If you look at, , a baby when it cries, if you were to put your. hands gently on, on it, you would feel it going WAH it cries, its body naturally does that absorption, , action. 

It's just, unfortunately over time we've got into quite, , A busy life and lots of different ways of being in our bodies. And also sometimes we're unprogrammed and perhaps maybe not necessarily told exactly what our body needs in that moment. So we start overdoing it in one area and then we undo , the natural function of the, this absorption system. 

So I, I found that incredibly helpful when we're thinking about. Um, managing air pressure. So it's not, are you supporting? It's more, where are you supporting?  

Alexa: Yeah. That's really interesting because I guess we could filter that with our SOVT choices as well, because the balloon thing that you just did there was quite similar [00:22:00] to what I would experience in a puffy cheek. 

Alexa: Which is a higher resistance SOVT.  

Alexa: Equally, I don't know if this is a silly question or not, but, I remember last time we spoke, I was finding that I had less expansion in my back in the inhale, and it just so happens that when we did that exhale exercise then, it was again the back. So do you tend to see that those two pair, once you've got less flexibility in your inhale in one place, could it also mean that there's less flexibility there when you're exhaling?  

Lucinda: Correct. Yeah, absolutely. So that is commonly what happens. And that's why I really focus on the breathing mechanism first, because If we're feeling inhibited areas for movement, mobility in the breathing function, then there's a high chance that's also not able to move as freely when we breathe in, which is that movement of air pressure. 

So, , that's why I always come back to the breath as a start point. Otherwise, we're trying [00:23:00] to support onto a body or a mechanism that is not ready for it. It can't quite serve us with managing or holding the air pressure.  

Alexa: You mentioned the word support, so how would you describe it? Is it that absorption for you or is there other parts to that? 

Lucinda: , yeah, I'm So I think , if you Google the word support, , which I've done a few times over the years, , I really liked , the explanation that comes up about a dome with columns, , around holding this dome up, um, that these lovely, , fancy columns all around the outside. And if we're missing columns on one side of the dome, it's going to, , be lopsided and not as balanced and not held up as equally. 

So I think, yeah, , I do use the word support if that works for the singer. , but for me, I don't think we can talk about support without talking about and exploring air pressure. , so yeah, , it's [00:24:00] really about does working out what's working for each individual person in their breathing mechanism on their inhale and exhale to be able to inform where is there possibility for air pressure management and then can we find a way of helping each singer and voice user access on a daily basis because it can change. 

You know if you've been sat at a laptop all day you might lose the possibility of being able to access that absorption in the top ribs as easily. So on a daily basis , do we have tools to be able to re find our optimum absorption or support system? 

Alexa: And how would you do that? Is it again through the touch? 

Lucinda: Yeah, so, , I first do an analysis or, , exploration with the person, , together and I do that through,, through the touch. usually my hands on if, , the client or student is happy with that, , to actually feel where there's more potential for movement, , and more potential for absorption or support. 

And [00:25:00] then we work out where the areas in the body are not offering quite so much. And we always use positive wording in MDH. So it's not: this bit's broken, it doesn't work. It's more this area could offer you so much more, , flexibility, mobility and absorption potential because then that helps our brain realise that there's something good to come of it. , and, , then identify exactly where those areas are, and then there's, um, over a hundred, , procedures in the MDH breathing coordination method, which sounds quite overwhelming, but, , I help find the ones that really work for the individual to be able to undo anything that doesn't serve them in terms of the, , areas of the body that aren't quite working so that could be through touch. That could be through touch and visualisation. , it could be through just some breath work, very specific breath, guided breath work. It could be through voicing, , And it could then also be bridging the gap of that into their [00:26:00] song. So finding, um, particular parts of the absorption system to serve the, , particular bit that's maybe a bit challenging in the song or the overall song. 

Alexa: You mentioned earlier that we're not looking for something to move in the exhalation like with a big shift to start with. It's all kind of in tandem and moving together. Is that regardless of vocal task? If we're about to come in and belt a note or go up to a really high pitch, are we still wanting to find a gradual descent or contraction? Or is it a case of, for certain things, we will find that things have an onset that is bigger than for something else.  

Lucinda: I think we just have to be mindful with, let's for example, say we were belting or singing a big note. If we do have a sudden abdominal, , quite dramatic movement abdominally, , it [00:27:00] could, , encourage us to drive a bit more air, which is definitely not what we need when we need to be singing those high belt or more dynamic, , powerful notes. , so I think, , that whenever I see a dynamic or dramatic movement, I would always make sure it's not negatively impacting the, , optimized setup that we're looking for. , so yeah, I think in the example of a belting thing, I would just check that the dramatic movement isn't like a domino effect, cause everything's, touching something else isn't in the body, a muscle connects to a muscle connects to something else. 

So I would be really mindful that we don't have , a, , domino effect that could negatively affect what we're trying to make happen in the end.  

Lucinda: I think there is also a difference between a dynamic energy shift. , I think this is actually quite interesting with , the belt stuff, the really powerful singing stuff is that we can think we've got to physically do something really big, but actually [00:28:00] quite often, if our mind isn't sure why we're making that really big physiological movement, it can be like, why there's no threat here. 

Why are you making me make this dramatic movement? Like I'm in danger. And actually sometimes the dramatic shift or movement could happen psychologically to help stimulate the coordination , with the mind and the body. So I don't think necessarily like a dramatic shift or movement, whether that be psychologically or physiologically is bad. 

I think it's just, we need to make sure it doesn't have a negative effect on the result.  

Alexa: I think it's been really interesting seeing the Wicked movie come out and what Cynthia Erivo said about being on trapeze or flying when she was singing Defying Gravity and how she had to take her breath into her back more, and that the front of her body was having to remain somewhat engaged because of how she was flying and the way that she had to find those belted notes. 

And they were possible [00:29:00] without having to kind of lock and grip. So how do we know when somebody is using too much muscular or physical effort to support , a particularly intense note? What might we see?  

Lucinda: So yeah, this is a good way to look at it, I think , is what do we see? What do we hear? , what do we, or they feel? , and I think , what we would maybe see is some buildup of, , air pressure around. Uh, this area. So around the neck, we might see like a buildup of air pressure means like a bit of a fight in there. , we might see, , a sudden dramatic movement in the core. We might see people maybe over lift the chest or even compress the back of the neck. 

I think actually when we have too much airflow, I nearly always see people's jaws just. ping open like a trap door. So we're losing the airflow very quickly. And that's one of [00:30:00] the most common things I'd see. And then hearing wise, it would manifest through, I think more of a grip. We might hear some constriction. 

We might hear, , some slight distortion or rasp in the voice where the cords are desperately trying to hold the air back from the impetus underneath. , it might suddenly go breathy. in terms of the tone, , or we might hear cracks or breaks in the voice and instability. , and in terms of feel, I think people quite often reach for this area when they feel like, , what they're doing with their exhale isn't serving that. 

That bigger note. , so I think we have to consider all of those three things. Cause sometimes just by listening, we might be like, Oh, well, that doesn't sound safe, but they actually might be doing a safe distortion and we might, , see perhaps what looks like a buildup of air pressure around here, but actually it might be being, , put in this area in a way where everything is stretching accordingly for that air pressure. 

So, yeah, I think it's definitely bearing all of those things in [00:31:00] mind. I'm not sure if I answered the question there, I kind of went a bit off on one but  

Alexa: No, it's good to know what we can keep our ears and eyes out for. And I think that's quite a common thing, isn't it? We go to belt and we work much harder than we actually need to. 

And just to reflect what you said at the beginning of our chat here, which was actually we see people taking in maybe more breath than they need to. So if you had a singer in front of you who was just getting locked up, everything was kind of just getting a bit too engaged. How would you help them to reduce that and to find the optimum setup for them and that big note.  

Lucinda: Yeah, I think I'd want to be specific, so I'd ask them where they're feeling that additional work or contraction. , just using it as an example, let's imagine that people are going, it's quite a common thing when people sing high in their ranges, they maybe compress the back of their neck and maybe lock down, , in their shoulder girdle. I would get them to be really precise of where they're [00:32:00] noticing that and where they're feeling it. And then, , I actually end up doing quite a lot of talking in my sessions because I find like when you clarify the context and the why people are so much easier to want to flow into that. I think if you just say to someone, , just stand, , just a bit more length in your spine or stand up straight, then it's like, Oh no, I'm not being told to stand up straight again, am I? But I think as soon as you explain, well, actually you're really compressing the back of your windpipe where there is so much space for resonance and stretch and you could get this amazing boost in your, , acoustic choice that you're making. So you're kind of shutting off half of your kind of theater back there and then it's like, Oh, right. Okay. So. I can see why this would really benefit me. Um, so I ended up doing, telling quite a few weird stories. I think people that know that work with me know that I come up with the weirdest analogies, but as long as it works for the person, that's good for me. , and then you were asking about how you would undo extra efforts. 

So it could be done two ways [00:33:00] if we're online, , or for example, , it's a. Uh, not, , perhaps shorter session where maybe I've been working with that person a really long time and they can, , we've got a very good, , language and common, , communication style that we, that works for us. We can, I can quite often use some visualization to get them out of that, , and they can use their own touch to undo., and think of what we're actually looking for. So if we're looking for some length in the back of the spine and we're looking for release in the shoulders, we could do an exercise for that. , but I think actually connecting a visualization with an exercise is really strong and, , I'm not sure if I mentioned it last time, but MDH uses ideokinesis, , so the idea of movement. 

So if I get you to think about, , a waterfall of butter down the back of cervical spine. , as you're going towards that high note that you're about to sing, that's going to be much stronger than thinking stand up straight because then you'll probably [00:34:00] hyperextend it and everything will go a bit tight. 

So using some visualization and then the other option is actually to use the table work. So that would be getting. , the client back on the table, I've actually had that a lot this week. Everyone seems to be really locked in their back. So, , we have a method in MDH where you can gently guide the ribs into a position where they're actually able to absorb better, and, um, just by going back to the table and doing that for a few minutes and then standing again, the, , client would say, Oh, I can actually feel my absorption system now. So that stops them going here. So, the age old thing of stop poking your chin, stop poking your chin. Well, there's a reason we're poking our chin and my hypothesis is that we're not using our absorption system well enough. So as soon as we get the back moving and we get the pressure to go into the back then this stops happening and then we don't need to keep being told that we're lifting our chin. So it's actually a really lovely cue from the body and every time that [00:35:00] happens to me I go, thank you! Thanks for reminding me. 

Alexa: Yeah. It's like a maladaptation of, okay, that's not working. So I, I need to go somewhere else. , what does this say about anchoring then, which comes from, I believe the Estill method? , what are your thoughts on that?  

Lucinda: Yeah, , I'm really grateful for the Estill, , model because, , it was one of the first times where I really felt like I was starting to get the anatomy and what I was feeling and hearing connected. Um, I found that model when I was, know, a young singer, but also, you know, just , in a tense state and I sort of struggled with the idea of support and how we actually engage with that. And, , I felt really empowered by the Estill model because it gave me, , really practical tools to be able to think about, , how the function happens up here. 

And I was really happy with that. , but I still didn't feel. from the idea of, well, what happens to all this muscle tension when I'm singing? , and what, how can I deal [00:36:00] with it before and after when I'm singing? So, , the idea of, and this is just my experience of, of anchoring, but to, I, I think my experience was a sense of, , muscle work or at least bringing some effort and energy to muscle. And I think the issue that I found is that it's very difficult to tell which muscles to switch on because when you switch one on, even if it's nearby one that you want, it will still switch on. And then you've switched on muscles that are already on because usually muscles that are on will switch on more. So then you end up with. A little bit of tension on top of tension that was already there., I found that quite difficult, , for me and I, , I also felt like it made me slightly more tense. , so I think for me, the idea of like flexibility and, , movement of muscle, it just aligns better to it, to me, you know, we have a lot of singers with muscle tension dysphonia, and, to get them [00:37:00] to add more tension to this idea of muscle tension, dysphonia, like just doesn't align for me. So I do find I often get much better results with people thinking about absorption and movement of muscle rather than. Lots of contraction. Of course, there is some contraction. , on the exhale, we have lots of muscles that work together to contract, but, , I think we have to be mindful, adding tension to muscles that might already be tight. 

Alexa: And just to be clear for me, when we're talking about absorption, would we see that , as like a Inhalated swell type feeling or would that be a kind of coming down sort of feeling with the exhale?  

Lucinda: I think if we explain it through voice, it's, it makes it more useful for us as singers. so if we go, should we go back to here again? , And using the balloon idea but we're going to add a bit of voice to it. So lots of us are familiar with, , SOVT methods, , but , we'll use a block in this [00:38:00] case with the lips. So it's as if you're saying B and M at the same time. So could you go Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 

 Smashed it. Nice. So when we do that, we're creating that semi occluded vocal tract. And we've of course got a tiny little bit of air going this way, but we've got quite a lot going back. And instead of it stopping, I've got the silly motorway junction analogy, but instead of it stopping at like junction one, where we've got a fight going on at the cords, we think about letting it go further down the motorway and actually almost as if you're directing it under your hand. 

So instead of we get Or, wherever you want in your range, but we're absorbing the air pressure into the body rather than locking it here or blowing it out. Should we do a few more together maybe? Yeah. We can put our, um,, put [00:39:00] your hand behind you as well just so you can, , feel your body, , not just at the front, but seeing if you can enjoy any movement front and back. 

So this. .  

Woa woa woa woa, woa woa woa I love this idea from Estill, that kind of stretch of the cords so that kind of wimper or complaining at the same time so instead of v o o o, we're thinking vo the slow, steady outflow of air is there with that stretch and release of the cords and then the air being managed here. it  

can be quite light, you know, , we can have that, if we want, but it's actually a little bit more buzzy is more helpful on that.  

And you might feel  

it. vibrating or spinning around the mouth as That combination of body, chord and [00:40:00] resonator I think is a really good thing to build into the warm up to balance what we're doing. 

Alexa: Yeah and it's quite interesting that actually my instinct was to be like more pressurised. So , it's a good reminder to say, okay, maybe that's the approach. Maybe that's the instinct, but to be reminded that you can still get this, a good effect with the spinny  

Lucinda: And I think that's the thing. It's like these kinds of exercises aren't like, , necessarily right or wrong, although there's like a better, probably a better way, more helpful way to do it. But it's actually a moment for us to check, because sometimes when we're a bit like, right, I'm doing my warm up, we can, and then we can go, hang on a minute. 

Let me just check in. What am I doing in my body? Okay, it's, I'm not absorbing at all. I've just gone, and actually we can let this absorb or, oh gosh, I was blowing loads of air then. So it's like a really good exercise just to check in on those sort of three chambers. Can we, , see, I think it's really important that we see what they're doing and what they telling us on this [00:41:00] particular day that we might need to build into our next steps in our warmup. 

Alexa: Lucinda, you have given us so much insight and so much information on MDH breathing coordination and how we can apply it and look out for things in our studio. So thank you so much. A final question that I just have is how this might be able to facilitate, help somebody with maybe a lung condition, something like asthma, maybe long COVID, COPD, that sort of thing. 

Lucinda: I think the idea of the slow, steady outflow is, , one that would help, and I've experienced this with, , long COVID, , singers is to, , move the setup away from where it's probably got into a bit of a habit of a lifted rib cage and perhaps that sort of fast, shallow, , inhale and actually reminding the body that it is the ribs are designed to lengthen. 

So, , going back to following the full path of the exhale, , is one that I would definitely [00:42:00] work , with those kinds of, , clients. In fact, , Robin De Haas' book, , which is all around MDH breathing coordination is called Path of the Voice. And I think reminding, people with those kinds of conditions that there is a full path that we might've just forgotten. 

We've been down it before, but we've just been going up the first couple of up and down the first couple of steps when we perhaps get into that short, shallow breath pattern, and then actually we can remind the body, , of the full path that it can take the descent of the ribs and the glide of the diaphragm. 

And I think, , that's been extremely positive for helping people remember, , what is possible, what they were doing before, that it's not something that's, , new, it's actually, it was embedded there and we just need to remind the body of that safely. , and a lot of that is also down to the mindset. 

And the approach that we have in terms of the mindset of making sure, , we're telling the mind that we are safe with our breath. We're not telling the mind that we are in a place of danger. [00:43:00] So, , there's quite a lot of balancing that sort of psychological, , but also physical, physiological, , connection to the breath. 

And there's lots of research to show, , particularly the MDH work, , working with patients with emphysema. You can extend the exhale with the right, , guided, , body work. So it's not just in for two out four, , in for four out for six, it's how can we actually guide the relationship between the inhale and the exhale with the movement of the body and how it's designed to go through that full path.  

Alexa: And is most of what we've chatted is that, can we find that in Robin's book that you just mentioned there? , is the stuff on absorption and things covered in that book too?  

Lucinda: Yes. So, , there's lots of information on that. It's, , take your time. 

It's quite a full on read. Um,, but it is, yeah, a really inspiring book. I've had lots of, , positive feedback from my clients , that I do encourage to read it. I also think that, , a lot of this breath work is, , best experienced in person. So if you, , try and, , embody as much of this as possible in your own [00:44:00] way, then I would always encourage that as the most memorable path. 

Alexa: Yeah. Great. Thank you. Lucinda, can you remind us where listeners can find out more about you and get in touch?  

Lucinda: Certainly. I'm, , voice unlocked.com on the, old Worldwide web, and I am at Voice Unlocked on Instagram. , if you wanna follow me there.  

Alexa: Brilliant. Thank you, Lucinda. You're a legend for coming back and, thank you so much for your company once again. 

Lucinda: Pleasure. Thanks so much.