Alexa: [00:00:00] Well, here we are at the final episode of the 2024 season, and what better way to spend it than with the BAST training founder herself, Line Hilton. Line and I are talking about the ways in which we can introduce or reinstate boundaries as singing teachers to make sure that as we head into 2025, we can thrive in a work life balance, in our financial situation, our relationships and friendships, and in the policies that we can write for our studios. 

So let's head on in to the final episode of 2024 but have no fear, we will be back with you on the 15th of January 2025 to kickstart a whole new year of wonderful interviews and singing teacher goodness. 

Line Hilton, it feels like I've only just put the Christmas decorations away and here we are just days away from Christmas 2024. So what's been some highlights for you looking back over this year, whether they're [00:01:00] business related or just in your life in general?  

Line: Well, let's see. I think most of my life is related to the business. And we don't want to talk about my failure to be able to buy a new home, because that's not been a success in 2024. But for BAST training, I'm really happy that we managed to get the 20 hour course converted into the foundation course. And we've had quite a lot of people come through and really good results from that, which I'll talk about in a moment. 

We've continued with the level five course and we started with a new cohort of seven people in September and we've already got people booked in for April. So we know that we're heading in the right direction for that and we're getting really good feedback from the course. One of the things that's.[00:02:00]  

What's commonly said is that it is chocolate block full and people, even though we tell them it's going to, you know, take up quite a lot of your time, they are still surprised at how much extra there, especially if they've done the 20 hour course before, how much extra there is in that, but they're enjoying it and they're benefiting. 

That's the important thing for me. Really, it's not about. Whether somebody does really well and gets a distinction it's about how's it impacting their teaching and their understanding of voice and their ability to help other people sing with greater ease and health. Yeah, so that's been good. So I was having a look at some of the stats that were coming out of the foundation course. 

And I was really pleasantly surprised because we give a survey at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end of the course, and people go through the course in, you [00:03:00] know, their own time. But so far, we've got like 95 percent of the participants saying that they've got an increase in confidence. And of course, that's the main thing that people say they lack when they're looking for singing teacher training, that they're lacking confidence in their teaching. 

And we've got 80 percent of the participants feeling like they're ready to now go out and set up a business. And in fact, there was one person who said that they went from zero students to five students in the. time that they did the course and another person was saying that they increased, they felt sort of confident to go out and market themselves a bit more and they increased from 25 students to 35 students. 

So that kind of result is fantastic to see because it's life changing that kind of stuff. And then the other thing that we measured was knowledge and practical skills. and 85 percent of the participants say that they're happy with it. understanding of things [00:04:00] like vocal anatomy and a little bit of the science has increased significantly from sort of in the low regions out of 10 to somewhere around eight or higher out of 10. 

So we know we are giving people the information that they feel they need in order to feel more confident to go out and teach and start charging people, which is fantastic. That's been, you know, really my highlight and then of course, the podcast as well, Alexa, which I think you're doing amazingly on, and I get so many positive comments about your the way that you run the podcast. 

And of course, we've had some great guests this year. Haven't we? Who's you? your favourites, or should we not say favourites, just say the ones that interested you the most?  

Alexa: Oh, I mean, it's a pleasure to do the podcast. You just get to meet so many amazing people and every conversation, I take away something from that. 

So I do feel like everybody who has gifted us their time to come [00:05:00] and chat with me. I've loved every single conversation. Some highlights though, I absolutely adore speaking to Jenny Morton. I think she is incredible. She has a wealth of knowledge. We had a two parter with her this year on the topic of posture. 

I think they were episodes 149 and 150. We are creeping towards that 200 episode mark, which we will see in the new year. I also really loved our two parter with Dr. Molly Gebrian on the science behind practice. I thought that was really insightful. I absolutely filled my pants talking to you. Dr. Ingo Tietze and Karen Tietze Cox are all about SAVTs, and we reviewed their book as well. 

That was an absolute highlight for sure. And then some really great conversations with Lucinda Allen about MDH breathing coordination, and also Kerry Obert came back on, as did Ken Bozeman, and we were blessed with the sleep better doctor, [00:06:00] Dr. Joe McGarry, who Gave us some really great tips for vocal health and sleep related topics. 

So yeah, awesome this year. I've loved it.  

Line: Well, I'm really liking the way that the podcast is going because it's expanding out to areas that impact the voice and the singer and performance that maybe, you know, A teacher might not necessarily think of immediately, but if they have a little bit of understanding and knowledge and resources can actually really help them to support their students in a very 360 holistic way, which is fabulous. 

And of course, this is my interest anyway, so I'm really pleased that the podcast is heading in that direction. Yes, and Jenny and Molly also will be joining us. be contributing to the level five course if people want to delve in a little bit more with them. The other thing I love is the introduction of the student spotlight, um, hearing from the student's point of view, what the [00:07:00] benefits of having a singing teacher are and the differences that they've made. 

And of course, being able to big up their particular teachers, but just in general, helping people understand why a singing teacher can be a benefit regardless of what kind of genre you sing. Yeah. And the other podcast interview I really enjoyed and felt very proud of was bringing on our, one of our level five students, Lydia Stone, who is a clinical psychologist with children and showcasing, you know, the great, singing teachers that are coming through the level five course, which is Fabian, I'm sure we'll have more on in the future. 

Alexa: Across the podcast, we have this aim to talk about as many different topics as we can from the technical to the business side. And so we thought we would end 2024 with the focus on the singing teacher and the business, and particularly this idea of creating boundaries. [00:08:00] So as we head into 2025, how can we go about introducing or maybe even reinstating boundaries that we haven't thought of but feel like we need or ones that were there to start with but we've actually accidentally let go of them. 

Line: Um, I think it's a really good time, isn't it? The end of the year to reflect back on your business, your work, life balance, all of that sort of stuff. And boundaries is an area that we don't really talk about very often. I think in terms of resilience, it's one of those things that those areas that it's very evident that if we don't set boundaries it can really eat into our time, our energy, our health, our mental health in particular, our emotions, and singing teachers are no different. 

So certainly in terms of doing an overview, maybe looking into [00:09:00] making sure that you've got some studio policies in place. So for instance, do you have a policy in terms of payment and cancellation? Because, you know, things happen and you sometimes get students who don't understand that it's your time as well as theirs and that if they cancel they really should be paying you because otherwise you're sitting there not getting paid. 

When you could have filled that spot, uh, with another student who was paying, but rather than waiting until it happens and then saying, Oh, by the way, you need to pay me, making sure that you've already got that policy in place and that it's clearly stated this new students understand that this is how it works. 

And Either you have a prepayment or you pay as soon as the lesson has been done. I, for instance, have a policy where the first lesson with a new student has to be prepaid. [00:10:00] After that, I can make a decision and also we might have a discussion with regard to it. whether they buy a package, um, or how they want to go forward. 

So, it doesn't really matter how you do that, but you need to have these policies in place because if something goes wrong, then you've got a recourse to go back to and say, well, actually it is in the policy. You signed it or you read it, you agree to it. I incorporated into my intake form. So this is my cancellation policy. 

Please tick the box that you understand that. And then you've got it. This evidence, and paper trail that the person has agreed that if they cancel with less than 24 hours, for instance, they still have to pay for the lesson and you need to revisit your policies and just make sure that if anything needs changing or updating or payment processes or amounts, like you might change your fees and then of course, if you change anything, then you need to make sure that [00:11:00] you're letting your students know about it. 

And I think sometimes people find that very difficult, especially when it comes to money. So if you have this all set out, written out, and everybody's agreed, then you can just take a very assertive but friendly approach to dealing with it and say, remember when you signed that policy, or remember when we had this discussion, or remember when you agreed, or I have a 24 hour cancellation policy. 

The other thing that I do is I have it actually as part of my email signature. 24 hour cancellation will be charged in full, or less than 24 hour cancellation. So, and then on my piano, when I had a studio, I actually had a notification which said, What the policies of the studio were in terms of things like cancellations and payments. 

So, these kinds of things can really help set you up. And it might also be that you have a studio policy that [00:12:00] outlines what's acceptable behaviour and what's not acceptable behaviour. Not in, only in terms of what you expect from the student, but what the student can expect from the teacher as well. 

Alexa: Let's talk about work life balance. You mentioned before, when we were talking about the level five, that actually there's so much more involved in the course than people initially realise. It's jam packed with lots of awesome information. How can we make sure that as teachers we can go forth, have a busy studio, get to do all the CPD and upskilling that we are really interested in, but also have family life and leisure time. 

Line: Time off. Yeah. I struggle with that myself and I don't have a family. So, at least I'm not imposing that onto other people. I'd have to reconsider if I was in that situation, but I do [00:13:00] recognise that. It's important to schedule in time out for instance, you know, on the weekends, always make sure that there is a time when I'm out socialising or doing something, going into nature, going for a walk, having a break. 

I think certainly as a entrepreneur, it's very easy to be doing this Like, 80 hours a week, and I've certainly done that in the past with, with negative impact on me and my health. So maybe setting out, the other thing that I sometimes do is I set out in my diary, and I'll put in my calendar, and I'll put on an alarm when I have a particular task and I will set that. 

in the calendar, put my alarm on for when it starts and then when it finishes. In the past, I've also belonged to co working hubs where you log on line and so that keeps me [00:14:00] focused. And in this particular case, Um, co working hub that I worked with, you started with setting your intention, you did some breathing, then you did your work. 

When you finished, I think it was after 50 minutes, you wrote about how you went in the last 50 minutes and then did some stretching, breathing, and a bit of walking around. And I found that really useful to be with other people. And I think if you're working by yourself, it can sometimes be problematic, can't it? I will find myself just sitting at the computer and working and working and working and then suddenly, oh, I haven't stood up for the last three hours. And that's not healthy. The other thing when it comes to teaching is sort of putting in boundaries in terms of communication. 

So I don't have any alerts that come up when people message me except for A couple of places which I need to know, like, for instance, Slack, you [00:15:00] know, which is how we communicate through BEST. If a message comes there, I want to make sure that I'm able to see it because it might be something that needs attention immediately. 

But for other things like WhatsApp, I'd turn that off. Any of my social media, I'd turn all those off. So I'm not constantly getting distracted by things that can take you down a rabbit hole. Certainly in the past I've been a little bit less inclined to share my phone because I used to give my students my phone number and then I'd have people ringing me or texting me on the weekend and even like 11 o'clock at night on a Sunday night I once got a text from somebody and so I thought actually maybe I need to limit communication to just email. 

Having said that, with my coaching clients, who I work with over a period of time, part of the service that I give them is availability to me via [00:16:00] WhatsApp, Monday through Friday, nine to five, so within working hours. And that's part of the coaching program. So you can. So if you do share your phone or WhatsApp, then make sure that the student understands that you'll only be attending to their any of their questions and inquiries or comments during working hours so they know what to expect. 

What about you, Alexa? What do you do to set your work life boundaries?  

Alexa: It can be really tricky because it might be that you've got a full working week and you don't really want to do your admin at 9pm because you want to have a clear head. So the next available day is a Sunday. And sometimes if you start up that habit of, okay, I'm going to reply at 6pm on a Sunday, it almost gives the student the green light to contact you at that time.[00:17:00]  

And whilst I don't necessarily mind that, that might be encroach on somebody else's work life balance. So I think it's about understanding that if you send out an email late, then it might just start up an expectation. And if you're okay with that, that's fine. But if you don't want that, then maybe trying to find a different time of the day that you would be happy to receive those messages and also send them back. 

For me, I have A couple of non negotiables and one of them is I'm not teaching over dinner time. I think I've spoken a lot about my stomach on the podcast before and how I'm such a hungry monster. But for me having dinner with my husband Pete is really important to me. I want to share dinner time with him. 

And also because I know that I can get acid reflux flare ups, I want to make sure there is a calm hour, hour and a bit to just be able to cook and eat and be [00:18:00] calm. And then I might have a student after that in the evening, but between maybe 6. that is kind of blocked out as dinner time. So that I do get that scheduled break and I do get to eat and it doesn't have to be a rush. 

And I know then that it's going to be three hours. Plus, before I go to bed, even though I am a grandma, I would go there at like 8. 30 if  

Line: I could. In my calendar, I also make sure that I schedule in breaks. So, I remember when I first started teaching, I didn't think about breaks. And so people would book in and I'd find myself working three or four hours in a row without a break. 

And it seemed like a bit of a durr moment, but I thought, Oh, actually, I need to make sure that I schedule the break in. And then I can make the bookings in and around that. Now I use a scheduling platform. And so what I do is I [00:19:00] just put in the hours that I'm available. And then make sure that there's at least half an hour break between one hour and the next or, you know, that only I don't personally, I don't like having a session booked in one after the other. 

But when I was teaching on a regular basis, like straight ahead. Singing teaching I would have half hour lessons and I would do two hours and then have a half hour break and then two Hours half hour break and that worked well for me So making sure that you schedule in your break times is important and even in terms of your yearly calendar are you scheduling in timeout? 

It's obviously there's Christmas, but they're going to be other times over the year that you should really be Take time out, you know, whether it's a week or two that can be scheduled into your annual planner.  

Alexa: With that, Lyn, how would you advise [00:20:00] teachers to manage a scenario where you have a client who wants to book in something last minute, whether it's an audition or a really important performance, but actually you've scheduled time off? 

Line: Hmm. That's a hard one, isn't it? Because we're so invested in our students and if they've got, this opportunity and they just need to have a lesson to get them on track, we want to help. You know, at the end of the day, I think it's very individual. If you've got the time and you can fit it in and it's not going to compromise you, obviously you can go ahead and do that. 

But there's also the possibility that you could refer them to somebody else. And that's why it's important to be. networking and finding trusted teachers that can, you can refer people onto for whatever reason. So that might be another opportunity. Um, or it might be that you say, you know what, I can't do this, but I can do that. 

Some people might actually charge [00:21:00] extra but I think it just depends on the individual. I think most teachers will end up trying to fit that person in because that's the kind of people we are. But we have to be careful that we're not doing this all the time because you do need your time out. 

And obviously if you're not in a situation like you're not in the country, then there's nothing you can do about it except for, now I just remembered we've got Zoom now. Yeah. Um, but yes, that one is a hard one because sometimes it is important to that person and you know that it might make or break, you know, their situation. 

And also if you've got a student who's constantly asking for lessons last minute, then obviously you need to sit down and have a discussion with them about your boundaries and them being a little bit more organized and trying to figure out some sort of agreement that they think a little bit further and plan a little bit further ahead. 

Alexa: It's the time of the year where sickness is in [00:22:00] abundance. There is a mutual understanding amongst my private clients that if there is a bug, if there is a virus, to, on both parts, we'll let each other know and it will be a case of do you want to do the lesson online or would you prefer to move it? 

Because For us self employed teachers, if somebody comes in with a stinking cold and we catch that and it goes to our voices or whatever, we lose income. How would you advise us to set up a policy or an understanding with people that, you know, if you are ill, please don't come to the session, please let me know? 

Or what would you advise? Would you advise people to still go to their lessons?  

Line: No, I totally agree with you. It needs to be a discussion. I mean, it might not be the right thing for that person to actually be singing if they're not well for their vocal health. I remember when I first started , , [00:23:00] even though I have a nursing background, I had the same attitude of, oh, it's just a cold, until there were a couple of times when I caught the cold, and then I wasn't able to teach or to sing, not just for that period that I had the cold, but for the rest a week or so after. 

And in fact, right now, I don't know if anyone would have picked that up, but just even when I said the word cold, you could hear that I've got a slight huskiness to my tone, which is the result of a chest infection that I got Three weeks ago, that I'm, and I'm still coughing. And when I'm working on my voice, it sets me off coughing. 

And so demonstrating is really difficult and I don't have my range and I don't have my tonal quality that I have. And I say this to my friends all the time. It's not just a cold for me, it stops me from. Working, getting paid and singing and being able to do my job [00:24:00] for several weeks, maybe a month even. 

So I think it sometimes it just takes a couple of experiences for you to realise that you do just need to be, really stick to your guns with regards to not, well, minimising your connection with somebody who might have a infection that you might catch. So that can be put in your policies as well. 

That was the other, that was the other thing that on my piano was, if you have a cold or any kind of respiratory infection, do not come into the singing lesson. And I had even turned away a couple of times, people when they've turned up at the door, with a cold and I said, it's. Not good for your voice and it's also not good for me and it's clearly stated you sit every time you're standing in front of the piano you're reading that notification. But of course now [00:25:00] with Zoom it's a little easier so if people are not sure and they think they might be coming down with something but so the problem is that we're infectious for several days before we actually even get symptoms and there are going to be times when you connect with somebody who's coming down with an infection and you didn't even realise and they didn't realise either and that's fine, but you're also infectious for quite a long period whilst you have the infection. So right now I would say I'm probably not infectious. 

But I also, don't assume anything. And actually, for the first time this year, I've had a flu injection. I know it's not going to stop me from getting the flu, but it does reduce the severity, because there are some pretty nasty bugs out there at the moment. And the thing is that not only are you affected, but you might end up infecting someone else, as a result, because you didn't realise that you were infectious. 

And I think people are a little bit more understanding of it since COVID, [00:26:00] you know, recognising that these things can spread very quickly and it's not a good thing.  

Alexa: On the topic of people coming into the studio then, what sort of boundaries do we need to put in place when it comes to things like Behaviour and timekeeping as well for ourselves and as for the person we're meeting, things like attire, that sort of thing. 

Line: Hmm. Well, obviously your studio policy can cover all of those things in terms of, when you're booking in a lesson, you need to be five minutes early so we can start on time. You need to be able to start on time, making sure that you're finishing your lessons on time. That's all part really of what you're offering as a service. When it comes to attire, well, that's an interesting one. And I know we've had a conversation about that before, and it's not really something that I've thought about, but it might be important. Many years ago, I [00:27:00] worked on a summer vocal program in the States and they had quite specific rules about attire. 

So back in those days, it was when it was very fashionable to show your G string above your jeans or, and crop tops, you know, were also in, so you could show off your belly button ring, et cetera. And there were quite a lot of Mormons and Christians that attended the summer camp. And so that was part of the regulations that the students and the parents had to sign up to, that everybody would be dressed appropriately. 

And that was supposed to also include the teachers. I remember a particular teacher who wasn't complying with the dress rules and it caused a lot of problems and had to have a discussion, in terms of, well, everybody else has signed up to this. Now that's my alarm to tell me to have a little [00:28:00] pause. 

I have three pause alarms. So I just take a little two minute break where I do my breathing, just stop for a moment, maybe do a stretch. Yeah, so that's another thing you can incorporate.  

Alexa: That's very timely.  

Line: Yes, very timely. Yeah, so, getting back to the studio the other thing I would also think about Is things like physical safety, what are you doing to ensure that there's physical safety, that people aren't going to trip over things or accidentally get electrocuted or damaged in some way due to your equipment or the way that your room is set out, so thinking about health and safety is another thing you can be thinking about. 

incorporating into your studio, because obviously, you know, if somebody injures themselves, they could potentially sue you, which leads to making sure that you have public liability and public indemnity insurance as well. [00:29:00] Yeah. So there are a couple of things. I think ultimately each person's going to have certain expectations and boundaries that they have around I mean, obviously we, abusive behaviour is not going to be tolerated at all. 

I have heard of a teacher who ended up having to get a restraining order on a parent. But I have to say that's really extreme. They got upset about something, they weren't happy about something and started throwing around bits of the furniture in the studio. So that wasn't a problem with the student, she enjoyed working with a student, but the parent was, um, really problematic. 

Yeah, so obviously if it gets that bad, then you need to go to the police, but hopefully you will never get that bad. Behaviour, sometimes if you're working with, in particular, you know, there are children out there with [00:30:00] behavioural issues and it might be that an agreement has to be made with the parent of what you can and can't accept, and there may be times when you have to let go. 

People go because if you're not enjoying or feeling safe in your work environment or able to create a safe working environment for your students, then maybe, it's time to let go 

Alexa: as people within the creative industry. It's. It's most likely that a lot of us have had to do or chosen to take work for free, whether that's networking purposes, gaining that really important experience, or, you know, just for the love and kindness of it. How can we set financial boundaries, understanding the balance between continued opportunity and but also potential exploitation. 

Line: Yeah that's hard. I mean, in the beginning it's hard because quite often we'll take on free work to gain experience and then you get stuck in, realizing, oh, [00:31:00] now I've been doing this for quite some time, but I really want to get paid now. So how do I bring that conversation up? I would say initially, if you're going to do some free work, and I think many, Singing teachers do like to do that, I certainly do, is just to figure out what, how long are you going to give, you know, in terms of hours or period of time or duration. 

Or say for instance, you're teaching somebody for free because you're practicing. You might say I'm going to give you five free lessons after that, if you're still enjoying it, then I'll be able, I'll start charging a fee, but it'll be a special discounted fee to say thank you for being my guinea pig student. 

You know that you could set something out so if you're thinking about this right from the beginning so that we can lay out our expectations then everybody's on board and the student might go okay I'm done with lessons now because I don't want to pay and that's fine, that can happen, [00:32:00] but, um, it might be that they enjoy it so much and they're benefiting from it so much that they don't mind paying. 

And then they feel you know, like they're getting a good bargain because you're giving them a special rate. The same thing when you're working for other organisations, there's various charities sometimes people want to work for, or maybe it's your church. You might say, I'm able to give you this amount of time over this period. 

After that, I will need to start charging, but I'm quite happy to negotiate what that might be, and maybe it's a fee for for the, like a contract or maybe it's a hourly fee, whatever it is. And then you've got an option. You can either choose to continue working for free, if that's what you want to do when you get to that point, or you can start to invoice. 

I think a big. Part of this is thinking about it beforehand, thinking about what do I [00:33:00] want out of this, and then setting up an agreement, rather than just starting with the hope that they start to recognise and value you and then start to offer, no one's going to offer you payment, very few people will, if they can get you for free, and the problem is sometimes when start offering free services, people think that that's Just the way it's going to be and they get offended or upset when suddenly you start to bring up You know the subject of money and getting paid for your time or it might be that you set up some sort of bartering So you might find that there's a benefit in doing something for free for instance Especially when you're starting out a testimonial Getting a testimonial from somebody or it might be that if you're working with an individual that has certain skill set like administration or bookkeeping or marketing or something like that, that they do something for you in [00:34:00] return. 

So that's often quite a beneficial way to give away your time for free, but not be for free. I think it's also worth making sure that the organisation or person that you're working for free understands what your normal rates are. So you can say, okay, I normally charge X amount per hour, but I'm happy to offer you a certain amount of hours pro bono. 

And then people realise that you do value your time and your skills and your knowledge and hopefully they understand what they're gaining in terms of, monetary value in having you work for them for nothing.  

Alexa: One of the materials BAST suggests having in the singing studio is a box of tissues because it's quite common for tears to come due to the power of music and the voice being [00:35:00] inherently personal. 

So how can teachers set boundaries to safeguard students mental health and emotional well being while still maintaining that professionalism?  

Line: Yes, it's difficult, isn't it? Because sometimes a student will gain such a lot of trust in their singing teacher. I mean, singing is a very intimate, personal thing anyway. 

And quite often people will choose certain songs because they connect to that emotionally. And so conversations will come up in the course of working with a student where they might tell you things that they haven't told anybody. And it could be quite personal and quite deep or even quite intimate and maybe even disturbing. 

And it's, often in the moment, difficult to differentiate between what is being supportive and what's actually going into therapy [00:36:00] counselling. And of course, unless you have that kind of background, I would say you need to stick in your lane. If you feel that somebody's getting into an area that is much more related to therapeutic needs, then make sure that you've got a list of appropriate professionals that you can refer them on to. 

So that might be, for instance, people you've worked with before. Maybe you've had some counselling or therapy and it's worked for you and you trust that person. Particular therapist might be somebody that one of your students has recommended, or maybe you've met people, this is why going out and networking and going to all these different types of events where you can meet different teachers and people involved in performing arts or with singers or whatever, you know, that's important part of your networking is starting to gather these kind of people that you can refer a student on to.[00:37:00]  

Of course, you want to be empathetic, but you want to stay professional. You need to be neutral, but supportive. I, I think it's really important that you understand it's not your role to get involved in a student's personal life and to solve their problems but to accept and understand that it is likely at some point that with some of your students, those kind of topics will come up in the lesson. 

So you need to also make sure you're looking after your own well being, emotional and mental health. So, making sure you maybe set out limits to how much, uh, time you can allow somebody to talk about things that are outside of the singing lesson. And what I've done in the past is I've said Oh, we've been talking, you've been talking about this particular issue for the last 15 minutes. 

Is that something that you would like to continue [00:38:00] to do? Obviously, I'm not able to help you from a therapeutic way, but I'm happy to listen if that helps. But obviously you're here for a singing lesson and I just wanted to check in to see whether you would prefer to go on and do some singing exercises. 

So I have actually I've done that in the past when I've found somebody's gone on for quite an extensive amount of time about something that's outside of a singing lesson. Um, and then the other thing that I think can be really helpful is in the UK and Australia, there's the mental health first aid course. 

So if you feel like you're working with. Particularly vulnerable students, if say, for instance, like with you, you're working in a college of young students who are doing higher education, maybe away from home for the first time, a lot of stuff will come up. And I know that in the college, you've got people you can refer on to, but sometimes it's just [00:39:00] worth having that extra bit of confidence to be able to recognise when you need to refer someone on and to to not mistake their behaviour for their personality. 

And sometimes bad behaviour or disruptive or emotional behaviour is an indication of something else going on. And so maybe it is appropriate in that situation for a singing teacher to bring that up and just say, I can see you're very unhappy. You seem to be very angry. Can I help you find somebody that will be able to help you with that situation? 

Can I refer you on to somebody that can help you as a therapist or counselor? Obviously, if you work in the college, there's going to be a particular pathway you can take there. If you don't, then that's where I was saying earlier that, building up your own reference list is quite useful. And then at the very. 

least you can say to the student, is there someone at home that can help you? [00:40:00] Or maybe if you go to your GP, they'll be able to help you find the right kind of therapy or the next thing to do to help. It can be really difficult. You know, singing can be very emotional and trigger things as well. That's the other thing. 

Sometimes we get triggered by lyrics. And I think really For the singing teacher, it's just about understanding what your limitations are and making sure that you have a resource list of people or therapies that might be able to help.  

Alexa: Students and sometimes their parents may choose to follow teachers on Instagram or maybe put in a cheeky little friend request on Facebook. 

Even maybe communicate via channels like WhatsApp to submit practice recordings or updates on lesson times. Sometimes that can then merge into sort of friendship areas, sharing videos of [00:41:00] singers or whatever that might be. What's your view on building consenting friendships and maybe even romantic relationships with clients? 

Line: Mmm, that's a tricky one. So when I first started teaching, I was very clinical in the way that I approached my students. So I took a very medical point of view, which is, I'm here as the teacher, you're the client, the student, and, and I had quite a big barrier up. And there were a couple of students, That kept persisting in trying to build a friendship, and I found that really difficult. 

I was really uncomfortable with it. And, they'd say things like, Oh, do you fancy going to see this gig? Or do you want to go down, have a drink on the weekend? Or they'll always say, wanted to get to know me a bit better. And I spent a lot of time in the beginning, probably for the first couple of years, really [00:42:00] resisting that and putting them off, and minimising that. 

So I would obviously socialise, but it was more on a professional level when we did our end of year concerts or if we had, if I did some workshops or something like that, we'd have dinner afterwards and I'd socialise in that situation, but I really resisted doing any kind of socialising. And then one day I don't know, something happened or someone said something, and I suddenly had this realisation that consenting adults. 

Um, these people are interested in the same stuff that I'm interested in. Why am I not allowing, a friendship to evolve? And surely I can differentiate when we're in the singing lesson between Now we're in the singing lesson, and then now we're socialising. And so I then started to allow that to happen. 

And of course, now today, I have [00:43:00] many friends who come from, who used to be my students, or studied with me in some format. So, yeah, that's, that is interesting and it can be challenging sometimes, but it's really easy also to cross over a, a boundary. And also, what happens if a friend becomes your student? 

How do you manage that? Because now you're in an instructor role and you may never have ever sort of, or they may never have seen that side of you before, and that can sometimes be quite awkward. So I feel like it's a personal decision that a teacher needs to make, what you're comfortable with. 

It can sometimes end up being problematic, and I certainly know of situations where that's occurred. And I think, ultimately, it's probably best to approach it with [00:44:00] caution, initially. And a little bit like, dating, when you go online and you meet somebody and then, so go out somewhere, you know, that's quite public, or let people know, That's what you're doing and check in with you and keep it to something quite neutral initially. 

Um, so that, that might be one way. When it comes to romantic relationships, I've never been in a situation where that's occurred, but I've had friends who've. Actually even ended up marrying their student or a student. So at the end of the day, if we have consenting adults, I think that's very much up to the individuals. 

It's problematic when you have a teacher who's utilising their position of power to influence somebody who's young and naive. influenced, or maybe, in a little bit of awe of them, I think, obviously, that's going to be a problem. [00:45:00] And certainly, as a teacher, you don't want to be building a reputation of, you know, constantly dating your students. 

And I've known some teachers who have done that, 

If a relationship occurs, because it happens, you have something in common, you're both probably into the same kind of music, probably into the same kind of artists, you know, all of those, you've already got a really strong common ground. And so it might be quite logical that sometimes this, this will happen. 

Yeah. So I think, One needs to be careful and cautious, not sort of just assume that it's okay because it can sometimes become problematic down further down the line. In particular, say, for instance, if you're working with somebody, then you become friends and then they stop paying you. How are you going to deal with that? 

Making sure that you've got those boundaries in already. And it might be that actually the [00:46:00] appropriate thing to do when you get to a certain stage in the friendship or the relationship, uh, the appropriate thing might be to refer that person on. And say, for instance, in terms of a relationship, that might be something that you discuss at the beginning to say, look, if we are going to go down this pathway, then maybe it's more appropriate that you go and have a, your singing lessons with someone else, and we can separate these two things out because it could be problematic both ways. 

When it comes to things like social media and phone contact, well that's quite easy because you can set up a business profile. You don't have to allow them into your personal profile. So you can set up a page or have an Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is. In your business name, and you could if you wanted to also have a separate number for WhatsApp conversations, which is a work related number. 

So you don't have to give out [00:47:00] your private number. I mean, when I first started, I used to give out my phone number until I started getting calls and texts sort of on Sundays at night. So I stopped doing that practice now I give my phone number to my private coaching clients because we do. have conversations during the week, but I tell them quite clearly, Monday to Friday, working hours is when I'll respond. 

And, you're quite welcome to send me messages outside of those times, but I won't be responding to them until.  

Alexa: So what are the signs then that boundaries might need to be revisited or even clarified with a student who he might feel is pushing them a little bit?  

Line: Well, I think one thing is if you're starting to feel resentment or frustration I think most teachers are pretty patient and You need to kind of really push them [00:48:00] in order to reach that sort of end degree. 

So if you're finding yourself getting cross or not looking forward to working with somebody, then that might be a sign. If somebody's just repeatedly, breaking your agreed policies. Is that really somebody that you want to be working with day in or week in week out? Probably not. And it's okay, it's your business, and it's okay for you to let go of people who are disrespecting you and your agreements. 

Or if you've got a student or a parent that's continually arguing with you, being disrespectful, maybe even angry at you, just behaving inappropriately. It's okay to let them go. And in fact, my favorite way of doing that is saying, obviously I'm not a good fit, we're not a good fit together, and I'm quite happy to refer you on to another teacher if you'd like [00:49:00] to continue with singing lessons, but unfortunately I won't be able to continue taking bookings from you. 

And there's nothing they can do to argue with that. So it's okay to let go. So of course if you're finding that your work life or your personal life is being disrupted by your students or your business, then you need to address it. It's not the way that You know, you can run a healthy work life balance. 

So it might be that you need to review your policies. It might be that you need to have uncomfortable conversations. Find somebody that you can talk this through and maybe practice the conversations with. Maybe It's a letter, and you can actually write it out as a letter so that you can be less emotional about the way that you approach it. 

So there are definitely ways that you can practice having these awkward conversations. And then, if there's They're not going to change. If they don't want to [00:50:00] comply with your policies, then let him go.  

Alexa: I've taken loads from this Line, particularly about timekeeping. I am definitely guilty of going over time a lot. 

I often find myself, I even put an alarm on to say, six minutes before the end, this is your warning to Do your little confidence finisher, round up, summarise and set practice. And then I get rid of the alarm and 25 minutes later, I'm still doing the same thing. So it is a good reminder to keep it within the hour. 

If you want to do bespoke sessions where actually that person would benefit from an hour and a half, then that's a different thing. But yes, it's because I get excited and something happens and you like you're having a good kind of bond with them. It's so tempting to go over. So I've definitely got that from this conversation. 

But what's coming up for you and BAST in 2025?  

Line: Well, there's probably going to be [00:51:00] more of the same. We'll be focusing on the foundation course and the level 5. We've already got three people booked in for April. So we have the April and the September intake. I'm going to run a free five day challenge in February to help people get more students through the door. 

We did that a couple of years ago. It was very successful. And of course, at the end of the challenge, we'll have some great offers there for anybody who is interested in doing the foundation or the level five course. And we're also going to look at instilling. The co working hub, which we did a trial on this year for people like us who would like to work with other people online. 

And so we're probably going to start setting that up somewhere near the beginning of the year. And I'm excited to see how the podcast will evolve further. We've got our 200th episode coming up, I think early in the [00:52:00] first quarter. Yeah, and then I'm hoping on a personal level that I'll find a home. 

Alexa: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I've joined the stress train this year on that one. It's blooming tough.  

Line: Yeah so one of my goals in my new home is to have my studio there so that I can start seeing people in person and I really miss being able to see people in person. So I really want to get back into that starting next year. 

Alexa: Well, I think all that's left to say is to all our listeners, thank you so much for being with us over the course of this year and all the years previous, and we can't wait to have you back with us in 2025. We hope you've had an amazing teaching year and that it continues to be so, and just a big old Merry Christmas. 

Line: Indeed, have an amazing and safe festive season, whatever you end up doing, and make sure that you [00:53:00] have some time out and start thinking about your boundaries for 2025.