Alexa: [00:00:00] If you could work with any artist, who would it be? Maybe the pop queen herself, Kylie Minogue? Maybe the charismatic Robbie Williams? Or even the powerhouse that is Adele? Well, our guest this week, Katie Holmes Smith, who is a professional backing vocalist and session singer, can tick all of those off her list. 

So what does it mean to be a backing vocalist? And how can we get our foot in the door? What are the skills required to be a backing vocalist? And what's it really like being part of these mega musical campaigns and being on tour with some of the music industry's most loved artists? 

And all whilst being a mum? 

Well, let's ask Katie!  

Speaker: Katie, you are a very accomplished vocalist and some of the people you have performed with are quite common household names. Christina Aguilera, Kylie Minogue, Jesse j Robbie Williams. And [00:01:00] you've just finished touring with an artist? Probably, actually none of us have really heard of, so a Ade Adele Adeli Deli. 

Um, what's, is that right?  

Katie: A, a Deli ? Yes, I have. Thank you.  

Alexa: She's just had the Las Vegas residency and that's just come to a close. So, Katie, have you got Kylie on speed dial? Is she coming around for a cuppa? Do you have Adele, you know, popping in on a Tuesday for a takeaway?  

Katie: Oh, I wish. They're brilliant women. I would love to have a takeaway with both of them. Sadly, I was invited to join Kylie for a lovely year of gorgeous shows, which I am so excited to go and see as a punter. But I had to just make a few, just, I had to sort of create some space for some alternative projects for this year, because, as you said, being away with Adele for, It's been basically three years not being away solidly, we can cover that later, but just a three year campaign [00:02:00] with the workload based over in the States on the West Coast in Los Angeles and Las Vegas I just really needed to be more local for this year, I think, and Kylie's doing, she's just started rehearsals for her world tour, her tension tour, and I was very, very sad to not take up the invitation because I absolutely adore, adore working with her and her team, but yeah, I think it's really important to take a step back sometimes and just look at, you know, what's right for each year. 

And it would have been such a blessing to go from one huge campaign to another, but I think I just needed to pause for a little while and stay a bit more close to home. So yeah, but yeah, curry at any time, or Chinese, whatever, I'm not fussy. All the cuisines.  

Alexa: Well, Katie, we're so happy that you've joined us for today. 

So thank you for giving up your time and [00:03:00] welcome to the Singing Teachers Talk Podcast.  

Katie: Thank you very much for having me. Honestly, it really means a lot and I love the work you all do. I'm such an advocate for anything based around the voice. So it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.  

Alexa: You have a little boy, and we'll get on to how you kind of juggle your work and family life a bit later on, but if you just take a moment to reflect back to little Katie, and think about what her dreams were and the goals that she had, what were they that you remember? 

Katie: Gosh, I often think about this because working with somebody like Kylie, she was there's no getting away from it. She was my pop idol when I was young and I obviously have to slightly park that when I'm working with Kylie and her team because, you know, I have to remain composed and very professional and, but honestly, I often think back about Little Paty and think she would be [00:04:00] losing her mind right now. Um, I always knew from an early age what I wanted to do. I didn't really know in what capacity. I think at that age, I just wanted to sing and I want, I wanted to be a singer. I was very sure about that from an early age and I would tell my parents and I would tell anybody, my teachers, my friends. 

And I think that clear path and that knowledge of what I was aiming. to strive for, really stood me in good stead for just giving me like a trajectory to aim for, even though I had no idea how I was going to do it, in what capacity that would end up. Um, I just knew I wanted to sing. So I almost would love to go back and tell her, just be like, it's it's good. 

You're going to be okay. But obviously at the time you don't know that. I'm sure she'll be very proud of me, I think.  

Alexa: So how did you get into it then? What was the path that you followed to become a session singer and a backing [00:05:00] vocalist?  

Katie: I think my journey really was kind of a progression of events that just led, you know, I sort of, I took one step forward and then I just took and I constantly just evaluated what opportunities were around me. 

So when I was really young, as I said earlier, I just knew I wanted to sing. So I knew that I wanted to learn my craft. So I got singing lessons from quite a young age, which I was, really lucky to be able to get that opportunity. And I had individual singing lessons. I also sang in local choirs. 

I would sing in any capacity I could. So. I would be singing in school assemblies, I'd be part of the school production, I'd be singing and making up songs with my girlfriends I'd be singing in my bedroom, you know, listening, lots and lots of listening and then as I got older and I learnt how to drive and I had my own space in my car, I would [00:06:00] practice harmonies and singing, kind of picking out little things that I would hear that weren't necessarily like the top line, the main melody or the hook of the song. 

And I would use that opportunity as almost a bit like a work, a workshop space, driving around, singing away, making mistakes, figuring out what sounded good, what didn't trying to broaden my listening in terms of like styles of music. Um, and then when I left school I started participating in more kind of events. 

So my singing teacher at the time would put on vocal kind of showcases. And I started auditioning for a few jobs, so when, around this time, gosh, showing my age, we didn't really have, you know, social media, there was no [00:07:00] MySpace even, it was kind of, very much like you'd get like a paper that had all the casting advertisements in it. 

So whatever was available, I just would scurry through that and I would send off demos. So my singing teacher's husband had a recording studio in their house. And that was the first time I got into the studio and I covered a couple of my favourite songs, um, and had something I could send to people so that I had some kind of opportunity just to get my voice literally through people's letterboxes. 

And actually that became my first job. That was where I got a call from So I grew up and lived in and around the Southampton area, so I'm from, And Mark Hill, who was one half of the Artful Dodger back in the kind of garage scene, which obviously then went on to create, amazing work with Craig David [00:08:00] and other Southampton based artists. 

And it was because of my demo that they knew who I was and We got in touch that way and then I ended up basically walking into what then became my very first session job for Craig. He was looking for a female voice to go on a song he'd written. And, I mean at that point he was such a huge, I mean he still is, he's, he's just He's incredible success and he could have had the pick of the bunch, really. 

He could have had anybody. And he really loved my voice. And he said, she's a local girl. Let's get her in. This is great. And so I, I'm always, always so grateful for that opportunity. Cause that was really the first, session, paid session. I may add as well. It was like, that was a proper professional, you know, this these songs were going on his record and released to the world and that was for me like wow, okay [00:09:00] So going to my back to my point of taking a step forward: do you want to sing in a studio? Yes. Do you want to showcase your voice to this person? Yes This person would like to collaborate with you because he wants your voice on the song. Yes, and then obviously that's That was my introduction as a session singer, but at the time I obviously didn't really know what that meant. I didn't know that the session singer was a thing. I just wanted to be a singer and obviously for me, I was like, I want to be a lead singer. I want to be an artist. I want to be releasing my own music. Um, and that's because I met Mark, that's when I started Spending lots of time at his studio, writing, recording a lot of songs for myself and also for other artists as well. And he had such an amazing pull of artists that used to come through the door because of who he was and his success with The Artful Dodger and Craig David. 

And [00:10:00] I was writing for artists, you know, I was writing with Lamar and Louise Redknapp and all these incredible people. And that was how the first, I would say, real kind of collaboration between me as a singer, but also me as a, as working in music as well. So earning a bit of a living and creating. 

But of course, a lot of my friends were going down the more, slightly more conventional route at the time. and they were getting jobs and they were earning money and I was earning a little bit of money because I entered into basically like this development deal where I was able to get some funding in order to create music and do music but it wasn't like a full time wage it was just enough for me to not have to work. 

But the goal was that eventually we would make that money back and everyone would be recouped. So it was, it was very much a business thing [00:11:00] an endeavor. And yeah, that's kind of where it started for me. And I think from there, it's just a bit like a spider web, the network, you just sort of, you meet so many people and you hear of more opportunities and then people go, Oh, actually, would you like to do this? And would you like to do that? And that's sorry, that was a real long story, but just to be thorough, for anybody that would be interested, that's how I got into essentially what I do now.  

Alexa: You said that you were evaluating things as you went along, one step in front of the other and thinking about these opportunities. 

There's sometimes that bit of advice that: Singers should take anything and everything, but what's your opinion on that now, looking back and also with the work that you do for Vocal Code, which we'll also get onto later. Is that what you would advise or is it a case of actually saying, is that what I really want to do? 

Katie: That's a really good question, because I think at the time, you don't [00:12:00] know, in the early stages, you don't really know what is going to be right for you. Kind of do have to test the water, I would say. But I do agree, it is quite misleading to say go and take anything and everything. Um, I think the reality of the music industry is Although the accessibility is so much greater now than it was maybe say 10, 15 years ago, in relation to social media and being able to have a platform to promote yourself, that doesn't actually cost a lot of money. 

It costs a lot of time. I think It's so important to listen to your instincts and I think if something feels right and you're happy with the people that you're going to be working with in that opportunity, I think it's always good to gain the [00:13:00] experience. And I think it's important to keep evaluating. 

For example, if you've tried a few things and it feels like you're Maybe you're just repeating the same experience and you're not really learning anything new or you're not really growing in any way or things aren't necessarily leading to anything else. I think then it's time to go, right, look, elsewhere and use it as a stepping stone. 

And even if that stepping stone is okay, I just won't go back to that. I'll just do something else. So I think it's a bit mixture of both in answer to your question. I think be open minded and try. Don't feel that you have to keep trying the same thing before, you'll know very soon if something doesn't feel right or it feels like a great thing and, I think that's important as well. 

Alexa: What's the difference between [00:14:00] session singing and being a backing vocalist? What are the differences?  

Katie: Well, sometimes there isn't a difference. Being a backing vocalist can cross over from recording, and it can also obviously be very live performance heavy. Um, I would say 80 percent of my backing vocal work is live. 

But there is a portion of it that does require coming into the studio and doing essentially what I would do on stage in the studio. Being a session vocalist I would say is a little bit more broader in as much as You could be doing backing vocals, but you could also be providing guide vocals for somebody. 

So it could be that you're required to sing lead. It might be that you need to work on an arrangement and come up with some vocal [00:15:00] harmonies and some more of an ensemble kind of idea. It could, essentially a session vocalist is someone who is like a hired. singer or yeah I mean, I wouldn't say someone who's like a voiceover or somebody who writes, that's very different, like a songwriter, but as a session vocalist, your job is to basically, yeah, be able to vocalize whatever that session requires, whereas as a backing vocalist, your job is to sing the background vocals, rather than necessarily create stuff, unless you're invited into creating some things, you know. So yeah, I'd say backing vocal work is more specific, and then session is more broad. So within that, it can be backing vocalists, it could also be other things.  

Alexa: So what would you say are the essential skills that a singer is going to need to do backing vocal work and session singing work?  

Katie: Lots of skills required. I think a lot of experience with understanding your own [00:16:00] tools. So as a singer, it's really done me well to understand my voice, understand my capabilities, understand what and where my voice thrives and where maybe it doesn't so for example, my skill set as a singer is I'm such a fan of a tone, like a tone of voice. 

And although I love loads of different singers with different tones, my tone is quite it's quite malleable in as much as like I could sing, it sits quite nicely alongside lots of other voices. So it doesn't necessarily stick out too much, but it doesn't fade into the background too much as well. I feel like my vocal technique and all the study I've done with my voice has allowed me to have what I would describe as a well rounded instrument. 

So my technique is [00:17:00] solid, I'd like to think and because of that, I'm able to move my voice around a little bit so that if I need to sound more like someone else, I can do that a little bit. If I need to, uh, you know, play around with my voice in terms of styles and things, like that's really important. 

Experience is obviously, it's one of those things, it's like a snowball effect. It's like the more you do, the more you experience, the more you're learning, all that kind of thing. Listening is really important as well. Just being able to listen to what needs to be done, like what's somebody asking for you to do. 

And I think interpretation of language is really quite tricky because I've been in so many sessions where the person running the session doesn't necessarily speak in the same vocal language that I would use. So they can't be specific and say, I'd really like you to [00:18:00] use your head voice or maybe blend into that and can you just open the vowel up a little bit more or can you make it sound a little bit -They're not sometimes they don't use that kind of language It could be like really vague like I really need you to sound a bit more kind of like Yeah a bit more and like this or I had it the other day where someone can you just sound a bit more like 'rolling in the deep' and I thought yeah. Yeah. Sure I thought I don't really know what that means in the moment. But what I think you mean is I want it to sound more kind of organic and earthy and raw and just natural, but I'm having to interpret that language. It can be really, really difficult. 

Skill sets, yeah, listening, understanding your instrument, playing, being playful and But, you know, you are allowed to learn on the job as well. Sometimes I think people go, Oh, I can't do that because , I've not done it before. , [00:19:00] I had never done half the jobs I had done , until I did them. 

Do you know what I mean? I'm still learning now and I love that aspect of it. It's like, I think it's one thing that keeps us all extremely grounded, is even though I'm experienced, I've been doing it for a long time, I could end up in a session and I'm like,  

I haven't done this before or gosh this is new and then I feel super like a student again, you know? 

Being versatile and being open minded is also really important to the skill set that you need, whether you're experienced or not.  

Alexa: What would be your tip for singers who want to get better at things like harmonies and blending? absolutely one of the things that we're going to need as a backing vocalist. 

Katie: Yeah, absolutely. I think blending and being able to learn to sit in the middle of other voices [00:20:00] is such a fundamental part of being a backing singer. I think there's definitely been times when, voices have stuck out, or even mine has stuck out a bit more, and somebody's gone, you need to just you know, just ease back or whatever. 

Or sometimes people want you to add more. I think it's really important to just sing with other voices. So listening to say like your favourite songs and hearing what's going on in the background and just being aware of Oh, interesting. Okay. That's really nice. It's just a unison. Oh, that's lovely. 

Oh, now that's really beautiful. It's really simple. It's just an octave of voices. That's really nice. And then hearing maybe the choices that people make . So for example, to sing a harmony the most natural note to pick would be the third note, above or below that note. And [00:21:00] sometimes that's all it needs. Maybe then you want to add the fifth, and maybe then you want to finish the chord and have the octave. So it's almost like there's very typical choices that get made time and time again, which you can go, ah, that works, that's a chord. That sounds nice. 

That note and that note sounds really lovely. And you'll know if it sounds nice because it will sound nice or it won't. And I think being playful, so even if, like for me, when I was on my own and I didn't have somebody else to sing along with, I would harmonize along to other singers. Whether there was a harmony there or not, I would just sing it anyway. 

And then when I got opportunities to sing with other vocalists, we would play around and, Oh, actually, my voice sounds better on the top, actually, than underneath. It's almost like figuring out within the group, where does your voice sound? And normally I would say, piece of advice, Your ear will take you to the note that you're probably [00:22:00] going to want to sing. 

If you're used to sort of like always going towards the top, and for most, for women in general, that tends to be our default because a lot of us are probably sopranos or mezzos rather than like sitting in the basement too much. So naturally our ears will pick up anything above. And It's important to go with that first because it will feel more natural, but then it might be that after a while you investigate what's happening underneath the note and like, why do I keep going to that? 

Why don't, is there anything else I could do? And I think the good thing about singing in groups as well is that you get to train your ear to hold down one part while something else is happening and that really beautiful multifunctional skill is growing. And that's really important too because you have to hold down your part, you can't be drifting into someone else's lane, [00:23:00] necessarily. And a choir is a really good opportunity to do that, but I would say, if you want to work on your voice and your blending more specifically, you might want to do that in a small group, three of you, four of you. 

Because then at least you've got a nice Position for a chord. You've got like the root note, the octave and whatever's in between. Try trial and error. Try get it wrong. Sound terrible. Try again. Sound great. You know, and then you are finessing. And once you've wor, if you've got a group of friends and you are like singing together, the more you sing together your voices are just gonna naturally start understanding each other, it's gonna start locking in, which is really exciting. I just have to do that on the fly most of the time in my work nowadays.  

Alexa: How much of that creative freedom have you had in the jobs that you've done so far? 

Is it a case of, working with Adele that you had an opportunity to [00:24:00] offer a particular thing, or is it creative teams not as up for that? I  

Katie: think it really varies depending on the artist. I think every artist I've worked with has in some way been very involved in obviously what we're doing, because essentially they are the vocalists. 

They are more often than not the ones that have written the parts that we then sing. So naturally they have a really clear idea of what they want us to do. But having said that, they have to offload and trust that you are going to understand what is required and take a lot of that workload off their shoulders because they've got a lot of other things to think about. 

But I think It's always in that first early rehearsal phase where they will let you know and sometimes you'll be sitting in a room with them and they'll be going through it with you. Sometimes they will just let you go off and [00:25:00] do your own thing and then they'll hear what you've done and then they might add a few notes and that's usually what happens. 

I think what's again important is just being open to whatever that artist needs. So I've had it many times where the artist has said can we do something with this? Is there, can we come up with Some oohs and ahhs and just pad out this section. I know it's not on the record, but I want to do it for the tour. 

Great. So then we'll go away and we'll create something. Sometimes I've had it where they're like, I don't want to do anything other than what's on the record. I just want you to do exactly what's on the record. Sometimes they might say. I want you to bring more of you to it, I want you to sing out and, yeah, be you, really give us your voice, and sometimes it's just do what is on the record, don't want you to take this any further, don't add anything else in, just do what is there. 

Yeah, it's really bespoke, I would say, which is great, because it's like, again, You never know what you're going to get. It's very much [00:26:00] up to the artist and even if they've chosen a certain style on a previous campaign, on the next campaign they might say, listen, I want to do stuff a bit different this time. 

I really want to go for a certain sound. And an artist like Kylie, for example, I would say her material, spans back, decades. And within those decades, she's had so many different genres. Even within the umbrella of pop, she's done a country album, she's done disco, she's done more kind of electronica, she's done more, she's doing more EDM now. 

It's And it's the same artist, she's not necessarily singing differently because we need her to sound like her, but the style of music's changed, the instruments have changed, so the way that we sing has got to adapt and make sense. So yeah, it really depends, but you get all in the above. in our line of [00:27:00] work, so it makes it fun. 

Alexa: And can you give us an insight into what it's like to be in rehearsals as a backing vocalist and then go on tour? You said you weren't always over in the States, there were gaps. So what's that like?  

Katie: Usually rehearsals start with band rehearsals, so there isn't any production or anything going on, it's just the band, the instrumentalists, the singers and usually we'll start without the artist. 

We'll get a nice head start on what the musical director thinks we should do. And that can include us all sitting in a room and literally just hitting play and like, right, let's, let's go. Um, And then quite a lot of the time, the singers will have a nice opportunity to maybe go into a separate space. 

We'll work on vocal stuff between us because whilst we're doing that, the drummer can be working on his drum sounds and the [00:28:00] keyboard could be programming stuff and so there are times when we have to be very much in our sections and not together. Usually in preparation for that. We will have familiarised ourselves with the material, so the MD will generally have given us a set list a Dropbox link, files with lots of material that they want us to get our ears around and maybe if it's stuff we've already worked on from previous campaigns, it might be that he wants to do a different We're version of that song. 

It might be that they want to kind of do a little mash up and put songs together, so essentially you have to come prepared. Very rarely do you walk into the rehearsal room and you just don't know anything about what's happening, because You do need to try and get straight into it as quickly as you possibly can. 

Um, but you have to be, again, malleable, you have to be willing to change. It is still a creative [00:29:00] process, even if the artist isn't there yet. The MD has already had conversations with the artist. They know what they want to do. They know what sound they want to go for. They know what songs they want to include. 

So we've already got a nice starting block. And then maybe, and the time scale varies completely on the artists and budgets and things like that. But eventually the artists will come into the room and then Almost like the process starts again, but we're just a lot further down the road. So the songs have taken shape. 

They sound pretty solid. Everyone has a really good first draft of what we think that the artist might want. And then that's the opportunity where they'll go, Great, I love that. Can we do this instead of that? I'm not sure that's working. Can you sing it really softly at that beginning bit? And then can [00:30:00] you really build it? 

I want it to sound really like Supremes at that point. Or, I want us to sound Super like, light , like, Another version takes shape. It's like, and every time you're doing it, you're just finessing it. You're just altering it and tweaking it. Like any kind of art, you know, you just make these few little adjustments until you get to a stage where you go, or the artist says, Great, I'm really happy with this. 

I love this. And Yeah, and then normally, you've got a deadline of when to get to that bit. And then obviously beyond then you take it to like a production space where you then take it to stage and you start adding content and lights and staging and moving parts, quite literally sometimes, um, a bit of choreography, some costumes, all this kind of thing. So yeah, that's where the band, where the process begins.  

Alexa: And then when you're in the [00:31:00] throes of touring, what's that like from like a day to day? Are you in rehearsals or is it , actually we're pretty solid, we just, we're going to turn up for the show? 

And how do you then work out your own kind of vocal training and your warm ups and that sort of thing?  

Katie: Yeah, I think by the time you get to the tour and you're taking the show to audiences, you'd like to think it's very much locked in and it's ready to go. And obviously there is always, always changes that could be made. 

So you just have to be ready, you know. I've got lots of stories on that side of things, but yeah, in the main , you're polished. It's time just to, to, to get on with it. So by which case, there aren't really any rehearsals. What happens is you do a daily sound check before every show and you just make sure that everything's working, everyone's happy and everyone's healthy the crew are [00:32:00] happy, the audio team are happy, the lighting team are happy, the musicians are happy. The artist is happy. And yeah, and then it's usually just that and the show. Um, and then obviously, depending on the nature of the tour, so how far you're travelling, where do you have to go, what's the schedule like, that will then depict on creating a routine. 

So, normally what happens is, between the soundcheck and the show, time is spent. Your own. So within that, like you said, you create your own schedule. You create your own Okay, so sound check is at 3 p. m. I want to give myself a warm up. So maybe I'll do that a couple of hours before and I want to make sure I've eaten something. 

I want to make sure I'm fully awake. And I think that's very personal to the [00:33:00] individual as to how you know your body and being careful to like, not do too much and maybe not do too little in terms of vocal stuff or even physical stuff I'm a, I'm somebody that I need lots of sleep. I need to move my body. 

I like to exercise and it helps me feel in the right space physically and mentally. And then I also have to very much respect my voice in terms of, you know, being able to do my job. Fundamentally that's what I have to do. So I can obviously be myself and can relax and I can let my hair down, but I also don't I know my boundaries but that's very different from person to person, it depends on what your tolerances are, and your age, and your requirements, and other things, you know, like you mentioned about my son at the beginning of our conversation, and obviously that's, juggling the parental side, and the, [00:34:00] you know, showbiz side, that is quite opposing sometimes, and so you have to then restructure your, work life balance depending on your situation and your environment. 

Alexa: Yeah, and can we touch on that now? You've got a little boy, how old is he?  

Katie: Yeah, Jude is six, six and a half, nearly. Yeah, he's at school. The days felt very slow at the beginning, but the years have gone by really quickly, I have to say.  

Alexa: And so how have you managed doing what you do as an artist and going on tour with other artists and being mum and being a wife? 

Katie: I say it's been a real challenge, but I don't want people to think of challenge as being something negative. It's just been a real reshuffle and re education for me to understand how to navigate with having [00:35:00] a child. Um, it's almost like What I knew before still very much carries on through into my life today, but I've had to expand. 

I've had to step out of my comfort zones. I've had to reform my box, within like my parameters. And it's been a challenge because I think it's been stepping into the unknown. It's like, How do I do this? Oh my gosh. And I think that is what really scares people. It's the, you just get to a place where you feel like you understand what you're doing and what needs to happen in order to facilitate that. 

And then something happens and that changes the dynamic hugely and you're like, ah! And I think it's been a challenge to navigate working through that. In as much as I have to say, It was a challenge navigating through COVID. You know, it's not just having a child that will throw [00:36:00] you. It's anything that changes your life in a way that you've not experienced before. 

So I would say my journey of juggling motherhood and music has been such an important lesson because I've had to really understand what I now need going forward rather than constantly just being like, well, this used to work and I used to be able to do this and I've just needed to evolve. 

Um, and I think that process, I knew that I would love to be a mum from very early in my life. So I always knew that was coming. And thank goodness, you know, we've been able to have our son. And I feel really grateful that I've had to navigate through it because I knew that one day I would and, yeah, it's like anything. 

It's been really difficult, has been really challenging at times in a negative way, and it's been really challenging and successful [00:37:00] in positive ways as well. And I feel so much more empowered, so much more in control, so much more assertive of what I need and what I want. Um, and it's really hard to get to that place if you're not, if you don't have those qualities already. 

And I always struggled with that. As a person, I'm very much a people pleaser. My job essentially is I'm servicing other people's art. But, it's lovely when, at the top of our conversation, when you talk about me As a singer and as an artist it's also really important to remember what you bring to the table and why people ask you and what is it that your skill set adds to their art. 

Um, and I think becoming a mum has definitely helped me mature and understand my purpose [00:38:00] away from music and also in music. So now I approach my work in such an And a better way, I think, because , I'm more in touch with what people need and I'm, I'm more flexible and not literally, but you know, and hopefully I'd like to have more children. And then I'll just be almost like back to, right, how do we do this with two who knows? Let's try and find out, so I'll be back sort of where I started again. So we'll see.  

Alexa: It's really interesting that you talk about, finding out and highlighting what that purpose is and what your values are. 

We had a mindset coach and an NLP practitioner on the podcast a few weeks ago, Louise Callin, and she was talking about the importance of understanding your values so that you can align your work and life. You're picking the projects that work for you. Just like we mentioned at the beginning, it's trying things [00:39:00] out, but also knowing where, what, what feels right for you. 

And you saying, you know, actually this year going on tour with Kylie just wasn't lining up with where you needed to be right now. You don't know what that might be in the future. You might be offered Kylie again at some point, but right now it didn't feel right rather than. Being that people pleaser and it taking a step away from your own values and your purpose. 

Katie: And I think what I've learned is me and Adetoun, one of my very, very good friends, and she and I run the vocal code together. We've always said this for a few years, like there is such a power in the word no. And it's like regaining that sense of control. And it's not, it's not a power trip thing. , it's a beautiful thing to be able to say because what I've realised in the last few years is to say no to a project. Regardless of how big, or how much kudos it might bring, or how much money it could [00:40:00] earn you, I always feel like if I can't work in an environment and give my 100%, I'm doing everybody else a disservice, especially the artist. 

Whereas I used to feel like if I said no, it would be like, oh. No one's going to ever, ever ask me ever again, and it's going to come across like I'm being really negative and Oh, what's wrong with her? Why is she saying no? And actually people respect a no sometimes, because they appreciate that you're not just saying yes, because Oh, that'll do then. 

You know, it's like, if I'm saying yes, I'm saying yes. If I'm saying no, I'm saying no. , but there'll be good reasons for that, and it'll generally be something that , the person on the other side can completely relate to. And they appreciate the honesty, because they need a team of people who are [00:41:00] there giving their 100%. 

Because It's a huge undertaking for them. , it's their art, it's their name, it's their brand, it's their money, it's their reputation. So, I think for me being able to recognise, thank you, but unfortunately this is not the right thing right now for me. , It has actually been met with I completely understand. Thank you. Rather than, oh, well, you know, that kind of reaction. So I think it's so important, so important just to listen to what you think is right and wrong. And if you're not sure, try it. And then if it's not for you, then you know more for next time.  

Alexa: We spoke a little bit about the networking and how you might just come onto somebody's radar a little bit. what's the selection process for joining a creative team these days? Is it the same word of mouth or did you have to go through an audition [00:42:00] process?  

Katie: I think although the landscape's changed, for me, , specifically because, , obviously I've been doing it a long time, , I am fortunate enough that my experience and my name, I guess, is familiar in quite a few circles, , but actually that's not to say, , that there are, there are plenty of circles, especially newer acts, newer artists, newer bands, newer teams that come into the industry, they wouldn't know who I was or what I've done, . , and I think the method of promotion is very similar in the main of it. So for example, being known for your skills. So whether it's whether you play guitar or whether you're a violinist or whether you're a singer or whatever. 

I think fundamentally, people need to be able to see and hear that's what you do. , whether that be on social media, [00:43:00] or whether that be in the room, or whether it be at university or college, or whether it's, you know, an orchestra, or it's, a choir, or it's singing lesson, in whatever capacity, I think. If you're working on your craft, then you're already in a sort of institution that is centered around people that sing or play music. And then from there, you're obviously networking with your peer group. And then Individually, everyone's gonna scurry off and do other things. So somebody might get into a band over here, and somebody might hear about an audition over here, and it really is word of mouth. 

That still is fundamentally what's happening. I've got friends in the industry who are brilliant at what they do, and they are playing on some of the biggest gigs. And in conversation, they've told me they've quite literally direct messaged the artist on Instagram. And I was like, [00:44:00] what? Seriously? 

You just messaged the Hi so and so, I do this, I'd love to work with you. This is me, kind of thing. Let me send I mean, the amount of times I'm sure that happens and it just gets like, drifted away. It also still works which blew my mind. I was like, wow, okay. My closest networking opportunities come from my group of singer friends. So obviously when I've worked on projects and I've met other singers and other musical directors, that generally is how I would get put forward for other opportunities. And sometimes those other opportunities aren't necessarily the same as maybe the environment we met. 

So for example, I could have met a singer on a corporate gig. And she suddenly being asked to put singers together for a backing vocal gig or vice versa you're on a backing [00:45:00] vocal gig with somebody and they're like, I work in this function band and I need another. Would you be up for doing that? 

Yeah. Okay. So it's very much like your peer group will work with you to create that growing network. And then also musical direct musical directors and band leaders. So if you can see an artist that you absolutely love and you would love to work with is being musically directed by so and so, then give that person a follow. Try and message them and, you know, see if you can create a bit of a network that's not just the artists, who are they working with? Okay, what are their stories? How do they, who are they connected with? You know, you could sort of start doing some detective work, essentially, word of mouth, doing gigs, creating a , like a reputation for yourself, I think is definitely still the [00:46:00] way forward. it's a, it's a slow burner, but it's a necessary journey. Cause it's a bit like a, like studying through college. You can't do college in a, like a term. It's a process and it's the same within the music industry. It's like, it's a process, but it gets easier and easier and easier as you get through it and through it and through it. 

So the more you stick with it. The more stuff you're going to do, the more people you'll meet, and in doing so, everything just gets easier and easier. So for me, I don't have to audition so much anymore. , sometimes I might get asked to audition for stuff, but I think I've done enough that people kind of go, Yeah, we kind of know what she's doing, it's fine. 

Whereas back in the day, of course, I had to audition for everything. I auditioned for Adele back in the day, didn't get the job, you know. Did that, and that didn't work out, but it served me years later. She was like, that girl that I saw, she was great. Let's get her back. [00:47:00] Job done. So again, it's like all these things, they might not make sense to you right in the moment. And you might think, that's a waste of time. You never know. I certainly never regretted auditioning for Adele, even though she didn't take me on the first time, but you know. It paid off and it was great in the end. So there we go.  

Alexa: Can you tell us about one of your favourite jobs? What's been a real highlight for you and why? 

Katie: Oh, gosh. I think having had the opportunity to perform on the main stage at Glastonbury a couple of times has been just some of the best gigs. I don't know. I just think it's The environment of that festival, it's so kind of like, it's just such a great energy, and it's got such a great atmosphere, and I've done it twice, I've done it, I've [00:48:00] performed on the main stage, we headlined with Adele, which was just like, I don't know, it's just one of those images I'll never be able to erase from my mind, just looking out on all the people that were just There is magical and it's such a it's like you're a piece of history whenever you get to do that slot It's such a privilege And then I did it years before with Professor Green We didn't headline, but we were on the main stage, the pyramid stage, and that was a different environment for me because I was, although I was hired as the backing vocalist, Steven, he's a rapper. He's, he's not necessarily a singer. So myself, , and Thomas Jules, we sang with Steven and we kind of like carried the more melodic hooky stuff and he was always so gracious in as much as he would let us come forward and we'd be in a line, like three of us in a row at the front of the stage. So, although I was being hired as the backing singer, I was [00:49:00] given a lot of free reign and I was the only female as well. 

So I had my, my own space to represent and that was amazing as well. You know, I'd run up and down that stage, almost like how it would feel to be the artist on the stage, I wasn't singing my songs, but that was also an incredibly special show. Um, and when you come off of those shows, you just feel electric, you know, you're just like, Oh my gosh, it's the best thing ever. 

It's like, probably for a child walking into, Disneyland or something. It's like, oh my gosh, but it's, it is really hard to pinpoint just one thing, but I would say they stand out every time I get asked that they start those two gigs stand out for me in my brain straight away. 

But that's not to say I haven't loved loads of others.  

Alexa: Yeah, of course. And has there been a moment that, that also stands out for you where you've really learned something from a particular artist, whether that's about how they use their voice or about something [00:50:00] you didn't expect as a backing vocalist? 

Katie: Hmm. Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I've certainly found myself in situations. where I've kind of stepped out of my own body and gone, this is hilarious, like, that you're doing this right now. But I've also loved it. So to give you two examples, one was with Professor Green. Our roles within that camp were a little different. 

It wasn't so conventional in as much as, you know, we would stand behind the artist in a little bv section. There was a period of time when it was just Stephen and I. And we would do shows just the two of us, with, um, maybe it was like a DJ, or it could have been with a band, but it was just him and I up front. 

And I remember we were doing a show, um, and [00:51:00] Thomas, who I'd mentioned earlier, he wasn't well, so he wasn't there for this particular show. And Thomas used to sing, but he could also rap as well, so he would what they call back up, Stephen, who was rapping. And this particular show was just me and Stephen, and he said to me, you gonna back me up, yeah? 

And I was like, sorry? And he was like, you can like, rap with me, and sing, but basically do what Thomas does. And I sort of laughed. I was like, are you serious? And he was like, yeah. And I could, I could tell he was being deadly serious. And I thought, firstly, I'm absolutely not a rapper, obviously ever. 

And I never done it. I've never done it. I mean, obviously, in the process of us, osmosis, like we were, we were such a tight unit. We could read each other so well. Like Or everything had sort of like gone in, but [00:52:00] it just felt in that moment really bizarre that he would entrust me to do that on a serious level. I was like Are you serious? This is, this is something I would never have expected. Anyway, so we did the gig and then, you know, I just sort of, we had fun and we had, we worked off each other. We would look at each other and it, again, it was like one of those experiences. I was like, I've never, ever done this before. I have no idea how this is going to go, you know, sort of just doing a little prayer in my own head. And then. I had loads of fun, it was great, and we high fived at the end. And it was one of those things where I thought, if anybody watching that show, that might have been the first time they ever saw me perform. 

And they might have been like, oh she's, she's rapping and she's singing, and that wasn't any part of my skill set before that show happened. Yet suddenly I was like, okay, add that to my box of experiences. And then the other one was, , I used to sing, uh, backing vocals for Leona [00:53:00] Lewis. And she was performing on the X Factor final in Los Angeles for the US, um, I think it was X Factor, maybe it was The Voice, I think it might have been The Voice, sorry. 

It was a Christmas single that she had out, One More Sleep, which was an amazing song, still absolutely massive today. And I'm on the record, which is amazing, so there we go, my backing vocal work did filter into Studio World for that. Amazing, amazing album. And. But that particular creative, she just wanted us to dance. 

So she had a team of dancers and then there was two of us backing vocalists. And she was like, actually, everything's on track. I'm singing live. It's a TV show. Those things that there's, it's normally live vocal to track, but to keep it nice and simple, she was singing live and we didn't really need to sing live. 

So she was like, you girls just need to dance. And by dance, I mean, she put us in with the dancers [00:54:00] and the, the. Dance troop of six became eight because it was me and the other girl. So essentially I was miming to my own voice, but all the other girls were also miming to my voice and I was dancing like I was one of the dancers and I had to look like I was just a dancer on that gig. 

I was getting paid to be the backing vocalist. I was there to sing, but here I was dancing, and all my years of dance training that I'd had as I was a kid, alongside, you know, the singing lessons and stuff, I was like, thank you for this training, because I was literally, and you can see it's on YouTube somewhere, you know. 

Alexa: I will be looking it up immediately after this.  

Katie: She's dancing and she's giving you everything, and hopefully you don't notice that I'm actually not a professional dancer, but. You know, again, and it was one of those things I thought I could have absolutely gone, Ah, no! But sometimes you just gotta, gotta go [00:55:00] with it. 

So yeah, two very odd experiences, very different, but ones that, you know, taught me a lot. And yes, I'm a rapper. Cool. Yes, I'm a dancer. Great! Just adding all these extra things to my, to my skill set.  

Alexa: Throughout this whole conversation, it's just brought up the fact that you just have to be on your toes. , you respond in the moment and just be willing to make, as you say, be malleable. 

Katie: Yeah. Yeah.  

Alexa: That's such a transferable set of skills for life. And I know you mentioned that things, you know, were challenging and you struggled to be assertive, but I wonder whether having those experiences in your work has made you, I don't want to say cope better, but be able to react with a different head on when you've, when you found something in your personal life that you need to front. 

Katie: Yeah. And vice versa, I would say. Yeah, there's [00:56:00] certainly, I learned a lot through, , maternity, COVID, then being a mum. It really did shine a light on, who am I away from music? And it was almost like, I really shed a bit of a skin and I was like, right, I know myself a bit more now. I know what I like, and even if you don't know what you like, maybe the best thing's still not happened yet, but what you do know is what you don't like. 

And sometimes just picking away at the things that you don't like and creating space. for new things, , that in, in itself is a really good process. , And like I said before, as much as I'm experienced, I've been doing it for a long time I'm still a student of the industry. The landscape changes all the time. It's a moving target. And I think As much as there's lots of advice and tips and things we can [00:57:00] learn , and do and try, there is no strict rulebook on navigating the music industry, because for all those reasons we've talked about, it's like, it's art. Yes, it's a business, and that really does infiltrate everything, but at the crux of it, it's, something that's a very organic and authentic thing. And I think in order for it to maintain that, you have to be, you have to be willing just to, try things and say, Oh, yeah, no, that's not for me. Oh, yeah, that was really good. Yeah. And , it's that that creates this growth and experience. So even if you're not getting the biggest gigs or whatever, it's There's always time, there's always time and there's space for everybody , I think even if it feels like you've just got to chip away, chip [00:58:00] away, chip away, um, that's the most important thing because You just never know. 

And , I also don't know, I'm still learning too. , as I get older, um, as my body changes, as my ability to recover and tolerate and do certain things. I'm, my body's going, Oh yeah, actually that used to be okay, but now it's not okay. So even if I feel like I've got to a place where I fully understand who I am and what I need, suddenly something will change and I have to learn again. 

So, I want that to feel inspiring for people because you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to know everything. You don't have to understand what is happening. you just. a pinch of kind of spontaneity and that element of like, all right, , let's see what this situation learns for me and , what I'm going to, what it's going to bring. 

I think that's perfect attitude to have because the minute you think, you know, everything. [00:59:00] And the minute you think you don't know anything, I mean, let's not, let's not give, um, a lack of respect to all the things that we do know and that we are good at and all the hard work we have done. Hopefully that makes sense and feels relatable for people. 

Alexa: And can you tell us about the Vocal Code? You are the vocal director for that. Can you tell us about what that entails and how we might be able to get involved?  

Katie: So The Vocal Code is a platform that was set up by Adetoun Ayoola and myself. , two singers. We do very similar work in the mainstream popular world of music. 

And we are both session vocalists. , we just felt , and we still feel like there is a bit of a gap for singers specifically. Like once you've done your [01:00:00] training and you've come out of music school or once you've left school or maybe you've just always had a passion to want to sing and there isn't really anywhere obvious to go and so we wanted to create this platform which is basically a hub. 

It's a space for singers to at least go to, they can get in touch with us. , we run auditions sometimes and I say auditions, I mean , it's more like a, a chance for us to meet people and hear what people can do and we've as a result been able to build a bit of a roster. , essentially we don't really like calling ourselves an agency because it sounds very formal and businessy , but at the same time we do get a lot of inquiries. 

There's a lot of work we can't do ourselves, we're not suitable for, so we want to have great people that we can refer to and we'd rather be that go between to help understand safeguarding people a bit [01:01:00] better because in popular music it's not the same as in traditional classical music where, you know, the formalities and the contractual side of things and sometimes that's a little bit wayward in the pop world , mainly because it's just never existed. So it's a bit of a kind of wild wild west in some respects. So it's almost like we're trying to create a community where we can all talk to each other, work together, give opportunities to each other. , And the Vocal Code is still fairly new in its existence because Adetoun and myself, we're still very much working in the music industry. So as much as we'd love to give 100 percent of our time into that as well, we also are doing so, and that's something we feel really, , passionate about. Uh, I think it's important to have that experience to keep. working ourselves within the industry and being able to [01:02:00] say, yeah, I had this experience the other day. 

So that's essentially what the Vocal Code is. And we have lots of plans for it, we feel like it's something that's going to just keep growing. we want to be one of the go to places. So if say a musical director or an artist or a management team or a record label or a TV company or production company go, let's put some singers together for this creative idea we have. But where do we do it? Where do we start? Where can we find these singers? Well, let the Vocal Code be one of those places that they go to. So if you go onto the Vocal Code website, you'll see ambassadors. And ambassadors are people who are friends. They are singers who are working at a super, super high level, including myself and Adetone. and so we're representing The, the standard and the CV of like what we've all done, independently. And we want to represent the best, but we [01:03:00] also want to bring up and nurture the people that might be new to it. , And it is a bit of a slow burner you have to navigate with like, what's available, who's touring, what do they want, But yeah, it's a space for people to at least come to , and start a journey and a community. 

Alexa: Starting their networking off, because it's just a whole pool of who you get to, so that's really awesome. And the link to that will be in the show notes. .  

 Katie, it's been such a pleasure. I actually now want to have a takeaway with you and get into more of these stories because it's so lovely to be hearing your experiences and, you know, you seem like such a good support for people coming in to this music industry world and not knowing where to go. 

So, thank you for inviting us in, in your life and understanding what it's like to be a backing vocalist. And yeah, thank you so much for your company.  

Katie: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I hope that in some of the stuff that I've [01:04:00] said, it might inspire or. give somebody an idea or just know that it's possible, , I know it's a bit of an uphill climb sometimes, but life is like that. 

And step by step and all that, it's been really, really lovely talking to you. Thank you so much for asking me to be part of this podcast.  

Alexa: Yeah, of course. And just before we go, to put it out into the ether, who is an artist that you would really like to work with but you haven't yet? 

Katie: I mean, if Beyonce phoned, I'd probably make myself available, you know, Stevie Wonder.  

Alexa: Stevie Wonder and Beyonce, get on it, get on the blower.  

Katie: Oh, yeah, I'll pack my suitcase for those people.