Alexa: We like to keep things real here on the BAST Singing Teachers Talk podcast, and this week is no exception. 

I am joined by singer-songwriter and vocal coach Grace Hancock to talk about what really happens when you fall out of love with performing. 

 We discuss burnout, self-compassion, and perfectionism, and some of the not so glamorous sides of performing. And how we can reconnect joyfully to our craft as musicians. 

Welcoming Grace Hancock. 

Grace, welcome to the podcast. How are you?  

Grace: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me on.  

Alexa: It's so lovely to meet another singing teacher, but also another singing sailor. 

Grace: Yeah, I couldn't believe that. When you said that you'd also been to sea and had similar experiences, I thought, "This is, this is something I really want to chat about," because at the time I felt so alone in it.  

Alexa: Revelations happen upon the ocean, which we will get into. 

What's been your favourite place that you've travelled to through music so far, and [00:01:00] why is it so memorable?  

Grace: I tell you what I loved, I went on a, uh, a particular cruise, one of my first cruises, I went across to Asia. So we went through the Suez Canal. And it was, this was 2023. It was just before the war kicked off. And so I think we were one of the last ships to go through the Suez Canal. And we went all the way around to Singapore, and that was our base. So every couple of weeks we had time in Singapore to explore, and I think that place has got a bit of everything. 

It's quite spenny. It's expensive, but it's lavish, and it's really clean, and it's, it's so friendly. Everyone there is just so welcoming. And that, I just felt a, a real sense of freedom and independence there. I could walk around and explore and, and I loved it. It was great.  

Alexa: One of my favourite memories of being on ship, or one of my favourite days of my life, we were based in Dominican Republic as, as our [00:02:00] docking place, and our welcome show wasn't until 11:00 PM that night. So when we were in the swing of things, we would have the entire day free, get back on board for 7:00, prepare, warm up, and then the show would happen. 

And that day we spent on a speedboat just hopping little islands around the Dominican Republic. The most wonderful day spent with some of your crew friends that you've made, and your castmates, and just hopping around and seeing these different islands, and then having the most delicious food. I can still remember the tuna. It was wonderful. That day will always come to mind when I think of my time on ship. 

Grace: Wow. Yeah. That's an amazing memory. It's what you do it for really, isn't it? The memories like that. 

Alexa: One of the perks, absolutely. 

What's a song that you never get tired of singing?  

Grace: Oh. That I never get tired of singing. I got tired of singing a lot of songs [00:03:00] but the one that I always come back to, it has to be a Ray Charles song that comes back to my roots. I loved singing Georgia by Ray Charles. I think that one is, is lovely to play and sing as well. It's got this lovely lilt to it. Yeah, I never get bored of that.  

Alexa: If you've sung something so many times, sometimes you're in this state of, like, automated performance, and I found that lyrics just slipped my mind sometimes, and I didn't like it. 

Grace: You forget them just before going on or something? 

Alexa: No, in the middle of the song. I remember singing a Melissa Etheridge song in our rock show, and I was like, "Tell me, does she love you? Tell me, does he love you? Oh, does she lo- " over and over again. And I was like, "This is hideous."  

Grace: Oh, no. I've had it before where you've literally, you cannot remember the first line of the song, and the intro is about to finish, and you're, "I, I need the line now. I need the line now." And you're there smiling. And it [00:04:00] comes in the fraction of a second before you need it. That's a heart-stopping moment.  

Alexa: Ooh, it is. Ooh, it is. 

What's the best and worst advice that you've received as a singer, do you think?  

Grace: Oh, um, best advice, would be to lean into you. Lean into who you are and what your strengths are. Don't try and please everyone, 'cause that leads to, you know, more authentic performance. It doesn't matter if you can't do the whole Beyoncé notes and twiddles. If you're doing something that's really you and you're feeling it, that's all that matters. 

And the worst advice I'd say is probably have a Mars bar before you sing, 'cause it coats your throat so you can scream louder.  

Alexa: Amazing.  

Grace: It wasn't. I could not sing after chocolate. I don't know about you, but that's not something that I would do again. 

Alexa: I, we were speaking to Duncan Rock [00:05:00] about dairy and the sort of myths around dairy a while ago. And sort of where this has stemmed from in terms of it's quite viscous, so the, the chocolate sticks to your mouth and the walls of the throat. It's a bit like when you swirl milk in a glass, and you see the milk sticking to the sides of the glass. Actually, if we just chase that down with some water, you're probably fine. 

But yeah, the advice of actually having a Mars bar to positively affect the voice is wonderful, and other chocolate bars, I'm sure, are, are... 

Grace: ... others are available. 

Alexa: Can you tell us about your mission as a singer and a singing teacher? And if you had to do that in one sentence, what would it be?  

Grace: Yeah. That's a, it's a lot to, package into one sentence. But I'd say actually it's been up and down. It's been extremes, and it's been fraught with anxieties, but I've still felt compelled to do it. I've c- felt compelled to come [00:06:00] back to it every time. There's just something in it that's, that's worth it.  

 It's the need to actually file away all the stuff that comes with the music scene that is detrimental to the singer and the student, and get down to the kernel that's actually really important, like fundamental to our being. You know, we, we are creative beings, and as much as some of us might like to say, "Oh, I'm not creative. Oh, I don't do that," it's a fundamental need for all of us to create. And I think singing is such it, it's such a well-connected art form, 'cause you, you are your instrument, and so it's an ultimate form of expression, I find. That's what drives me. I feel like everybody should be able to connect to at least some part of that. 

Alexa: Let's talk about the cruise ship work a little bit more. 

So I took a triple contract on a cruise, way back now, I can't even believe it, 2013 that I went on ships for the first time. And there seemed to [00:07:00] be, a particular stereotype for somebody who was going on a ship, that maybe they weren't good enough to be in the West End, so they had to take a ship contract. 

Or that they were lazy. Some other departments who maybe were working a different schedule on ship would find that the performance side, they had a lot more free time. 

And I found this even from studying way back in sixth form college, that there was a stereotype of performers being egotistical. 

What has your experience been with stereotypes and with cruise work in particular? 

Grace: I recognise all the ones that you've mentioned. I definitely noticed whilst on the ship that as a musician or as a cast member, as it sounds like you were, our schedules were vastly different to the people who had to do day in, day out work, sometimes not even really seeing the light of day. You know, some of them are [00:08:00] in the belly of the ship, and they don't get out much. We're living the life of Riley at the top, having day trips in the day. And I think they maybe it just looked a little bit like if we ever had an issue with anything, it would be, "What are you complaining about?" That's the perception I got. So yeah, I was... I can relate to that one. 

It's slightly different when you're, I guess, a musician to a cast member because there isn't necessarily, a West End regime that you can join on land. Instead you're just kind of expected to be like a musical jukebox. You're just like, "Okay, play this, play this." 

I could play this on, on my own, but in a band s- situation, if it was a band plus a solo thing, like I had on one of my ships, I wouldn't just be able to translate that into a band scenario. But a lot of people wouldn't understand that. They'd be saying, "Well, you, you can play it. Why don't you just play it with those guys?" Well, it doesn't work like that. You gotta... You probably all know it in different keys. You've gotta arrange it differently because as a solo pianist, you're literally doing the whole of the arrangement with your [00:09:00] hands. You're trying to compromise the whole song into something that fits piano and voice. So it doesn't work with a whole band. 

So there's the jukebox thing. They expect you to know everything and to, to be able to just do it like that, solo or with a band. And I guess that, that kind of deteriorates your, your own individuality as a musician. They don't really go there to listen to the style of the person or any original songs. I did sneak in original songs every now and then, but... 

Alexa: on the other side of the coin then, why is being a singer on a cruise ship a really great job?  

Grace: Yeah. Well, there's all the obvious reasons. You do get to see a lot of really nice places. You get to make friends with people all over the world. I mean, I could probably call on someone in the Philippines. I could stay with them if I wanted, and I love that feeling. 

But also it completely pushed me. It pushed me out of my comfort zone. And before I went on ships [00:10:00] actually, I'd dabbled in piano. I'd had lessons when I was 14, 15, and then I took about 10 years out. I didn't really play piano. I really wanted to, but I couldn't bring up... I couldn't muster the enthusiasm to do it, and I was really disappointed with myself in that for about 10 years. 

But it turns out that I just didn't have the incentive, and when I was told that I could leave my office job and go on a cruise ship in six months, but you have to learn 200 songs to get on board, I'm like, "Okay. I'll get up at 6:00, and I'll learn songs, and I'll come home, and I'll learn songs. Then I'll get up at 6:00 the next morning, and I'll learn more songs." And before you knew it, I was actually a pianist, and I didn't consider myself a pianist before that. 

And then when I went on the ships, I had all these songs that I was very new at playing. I hadn't played in front of anyone, so I was very, very nervous. And on top of that, two weeks in, I get a cold because they are floating Petri dishes are ships... 

Alexa: yeah, yes, they are... 

Grace: my immune system was just hammered on the [00:11:00] first day. So, two weeks in, I found that not only was I singing and playing to an audience with songs that I wasn't very confident in, but actually I'd lost my voice. 

So I had to do everything instrumental, and that was not my strong point. I had to learn on the fly, and I tell you, I had some absolute car crashes of performances, and I felt really bad, like, really bad about myself. But that's what drove me to get better, and now I feel like I can pretty much play anything instrumental, I can follow in with my hand, because I was forced to. 

So not only that, you know, instrumentally pushed me, but, you know, also socially as well, it pushes you to be confident on stage and, and explore new places and on your own, and it's all of those things.  

Alexa: From the perspective of being a cast member in the theatre, that's such a great job because of the versatility that it offers. 

Looking at my schedule, or thinking back to my, my show schedule, we had a rock show, a blues show, [00:12:00] my solo program was jazzy. We had pop shows. We had really contemporary shows and the musical shows that were written for that particular fleet of ships. It was one night after the other, you had to switch around, and that's amazing to show on your CV that you have that ability as a performer. 

But also the contracts mean that you're performing for a good chunk of time. You're not out of work, you're on board doing performance day in, day out. 

And also, financially, it can be quite rewarding. Back in, you know, however long ago it was now it was one of my highest paid jobs that I'd ever had.  

Grace: Yeah, it does pay very well. It does. 

And if you haven't got anywhere to rent at home, I'd actually moved back in with the parents to go on the cruise ships, so then I didn't have rent to pay. And actually, my savings just stacking up and up and up, which was very satisfying.  

Alexa: In the beginning, we were talking about the fact that you and I both had sort of revelations [00:13:00] being on the ship. 

What life lessons came from living the ship life for you?  

Grace: Oh, many, many. And I'm still perfecting them now, obviously. 

I came off ships just last year. I'd go on again for a couple of weeks perhaps, but not for a six-month stint because they do bring up, they surface a lot of things that are wrong with your relationship to yourself and your relationship to your music. 

And I learnt that I just completely lacked self-compassion. I didn't realise it, but there was a massive hole there, and it only came up when I got into this bad habit of self-comparison. I've got a slight tendency towards perfectionism anyway. I'm very much achievement based, driven from school days, unfortunately. 

So, anything that I felt like I was lacking in or somebody else did well, that was a slight on my own. Like, oh, well, I can't... I don't feel like I can do that. And then my [00:14:00] self-perception go went down and down and down. And even though I was doing really well, looking back, I didn't feel it. I just didn't see it. 

Any nice comment from the crowd or my peers just went completely over my head. I was like, " they don't mean it. They don- they don't think that. They just feel like they have to say it." And I just got really rock bottom for a time there. Partly because I'd just lost my, my identity, and I'd forgotten who I was. 

I was just singing what everybody else wanted to sing, trying to do what everybody can do, and tick every single box. And all I actually needed to do was lean into who I was and accept who I am. And I'm still, I'm tr- I'm still trying to do that, but that was the major life lesson for me. How about you? 

I want to know what you felt.  

Alexa: In rehearsals was the place, before I got on board actually, I knew I didn't want to perform. It was really odd. I was, somebody who thought for, gosh, [00:15:00] 17, 18 years that that's what I wanted to do. 

And then I was just doing show rehearsals, and I was just sat waiting for my bit, and I was like, "This is not it. This is not for me." And it was really strange, and it was kind of heartbreaking because I was like, "I've worked so hard to be here, but it doesn't feel right." 

And it's not because I didn't have the best time. I had the best time on ships, some of my most favourite memories ever, and I'm so glad I did it. And then I went on board, and I still had the time of my life, and I did three contracts back to back. So I was away, with little stints on land, for about 18 months. 

But then when I was on a ship, for someone who does have a huge amount of anxiety, I didn't feel very much anxiety on the ship, actually, 

And I think it was sometimes going onto the crew deck or whatever and seeing absolutely nothing, literally just expanses of water, and not knowing where the heck you were in the world, [00:16:00] and going, " this is actually quite peaceful." Particularly in the Caribbean at night, going up and seeing all the shooting stars 'cause there's no light pollution. It just reminded you that there was a whole lot more that could be achieved, or it didn't just stop there. It was an odd thing to be like, "I don't think this is the path I should be on, but I'm gonna have the time of my life trying to be on these contracts." 

But also I learnt so much as a performer on, on ships. We were speaking with Molly Walsh last week about acting through song, and I remember watching back one of our shows, and I thought I was giving it the beans, and then I watched back and I was like, "There is nothing going on in your face." And so that gave me the opportunity to really change the way I was performing or develop it further. I'll be forever grateful for Aida and, and the ships, because I met some of the most amazing people, understood different cultures, and travelled and got to sing. 

Like, no matter what, I still was able [00:17:00] to tick that box. But at the same time, being like, " There's something else that I need to be doing."  

Grace: Oh yeah. Gosh, what a juxtaposition to find yourself in.  

Alexa: Looking at your experience there about, really reflecting on self-compassion and trying to be better at that in your life, how has that changed the way you teach? 

Grace: Yeah, good question. Because I started teaching when I first came out of university in 2014, and I did singing tuition back then. So I was fresh off, off the press then, and I wasn't much older than I, than my students at the time. And I didn't enjoy it. 

And since coming back off ships, it, there's been another opportunity for me to start it up again. And it's been completely different. Now with that life experience behind me, you know, I've had a fair, fair gap. I've been through all of that stuff on the ship. I find that in my lessons now, it'll be much more focused on who they are [00:18:00] and why they're here. Why do they want to be good at music? Because their motives sometimes can come from the wrong place depending on how their, you know, everybody as a child gets endorphins from somewhere if they, they got a good grade in school or they won a race in sports day or they're wearing a nice dress. 

If they get a good response about how they look or how they act or what they achieve, that's what they're gonna wanna pursue later on in life, and that's where they put their value. And if someone's put their value in being the performer, being the one that wows people 'cause they have a bit of natural ability and that's all you hone in in your lessons from an early age, then they are not really gonna find any other part of themselves. 

They're just gonna think of themselves as, "Oh, I, I have to perform, otherwise I'm not worth much." And as good as a parent as you can be, I don't think, I think it's incredibly hard to a- to avoid any situation like [00:19:00] that. Everybody comes away from childhood with some kind of trauma, it's big or small. 

You cannot avoid that, it's just a part of life. And I think part of our responsibility as teachers now, I see it as our responsibility to help them find a way to use music that isn't just all about them achieving or proving themselves. But how can they actually use it as a tool to make their surroundings better, make the influences and the, the people that they influence, make their lives a bit better? 

It's hard to incorporate that because sometimes you only have half an hour lesson with a kid. They've got a short attention span, and they just wanna sing Golden, by K-pop. And sometimes it's hard to sit them down and say, "Well, you know, it's a big responsibility as a singer because you can emote th- you know, these feelings to people." 

They don't wanna hear it. So it can be tricky, but I like... What I try and do is instead just [00:20:00] get them doing a bit of improvisation perhaps. I always get a bit of of a feel of almost like a, like a laboratory rather than a test or like an exam room that, where they have to get everything perfect. This is actually a space where you can try stuff out and you can make really ugly noises. 

Let's make up riffs. I'll riff, and then you do another riff, and then I'll riff, and then you do it again. We take it in turns, and if it sounds rubbish, that's great. It's fine. We just keep going. And then sometimes I even make that into a song with them, and as a little enrichment program, and I've got a couple of students who are really running with that, and they've got their own little original songs going. 

Just adds a bit more to their sense of self rather than what they can achieve from it, I suppose.  

Alexa: It's in the way that they feel when they come into the room, isn't it? And it's not necessarily like a teaching strategy sometimes. It's like how you are as a person, the questions you ask them, the humour that, that comes in, all of that can help a singer go, "I feel [00:21:00] safe here, and I know that I can do whatever sounds, and they'll be okay, whether they're the intended ones or not."  

Grace: Absolutely. Absolutely. You've got to have a strong sense of the subtleties of someone's energy as they're in the room because they are more often than not so much more scared than they put across. 

Especially the adults. They'll come in and they probably haven't sung for, for years and years, and they've got this thing that, that, you know, they used to be able to sing and they don't wanna be proven that they can't anymore. And, and there's a real tangle of emotions going on underneath the surface, and you've gotta be quite delicate about it. 

But at the same time, just be like, "It's okay. It's a, it's a low stakes environment. You're not performing to me. This is for you and it's gonna be fun."  

Alexa: This sort of all ties into the psychology of creativity , as well as all the vocal technique stuff that we do. And I understand that you've done a little bit of your own independent reading and research [00:22:00] on this connection and our relationship with music. 

Can you tell us a little bit about that and what you found or interpreted from that?  

Grace: Yeah. Well, I'd say my, my research has been mainly my conversations with people, like you're doing now, on my podcast, Curious Vocalists. 'Cause I get on people who are psychotherapists, who are hypnotherapists, who are music practitioners in themselves, and I've just been trying to piece together exactly what it is to be, you know, a creative in a, in a holistic way because it's much more than just vocal technique and how to build more of an identity as a singer. 

So most of my, my findings is that as a creative, there's a lot of areas in our life that need to come together in order to be a, a fully functioning and happy creative, happy singer, and be content in our lives. 'Cause there's this balance that needs to happen. We, we have to have contentment in where we are now, but still ambition enough to push us on. 

[00:23:00] And that's a really hard balance to strike, and what most people find themselves in is either they're just pushing, pushing, pushing and they're never enough, or they're just like, "Oh, I don't, I don't really care enough. It wasn't enough of a challenge and I just don't, I don't enjoy it anymore," and they've lost it. And people come up to you say, "I wish I'd kept going as a kid and be- and kept going with my piano lessons or singing lessons, and I just didn't." 

You gotta find that nice middle ground. I find I'm always a little bit too far on the side of pushing myself too far because I'm crushed by my own ambition a lot of the time. And the trick is, I think, is to one, find the right amount of challenge for yourself or your students. If it's too much challenge, you'll be intimidated and you'll wanna come off of it. If it's not enough, you'll get bored. It has to be just the right amount of challenge. 

So it might mean that you don't go straight for that Tori Kelly song and try and do all those big riffs. You find a song that's a, a bit more manageable, but still challenges you a little bit. And secondly, I think it's [00:24:00] finding a sense of inner worth and trust in yourself that you can have a day off and you know you're gonna come back to it. You don't feel like you're just going to fall off the wagon and let it, let it drop. You've got this habit that you're forming, and you trust yourself to come back to it day in, day out. 

Ultimately, you know that this is you and that your identity is, is within there somewhere. I've had a whole, I'd say probably about five years out of music, and at the time it feels like it's never gonna end and that, oh no, I've, I've failed and I've, I'm not doing it anymore. 

But in hindsight, you look back and you realise it was just a blip, and I came back to it, and it's just a phase of life. So there are these cyclical moments in life, these seasons that feel bad at the time, but you can have a sense of, relief almost in there, that it's not forever and that I trust I'm going to come back to it. 

I've spent [00:25:00] a year off the ships now, and I've actually said to myself, "I don't want to perform. I'm turning down jobs for performing," and that's tough because that's my main earner, that's my main skill. And who am I if I'm not performing? All these things are coming up. 

But I've decided, I've set a boundary for myself because I've had a bit of burnout, and I recognise that, and I'm saying to myself, "I'm not gonna perform and I'm not gonna get back up on that stage until I have something authentic to say and it's coming from the right place," 'cause otherwise I'll just get back into my old habits. 

I was there in those sparkly dresses and those high heels and, and I was putting on this smile, and I f- I just... I was like, "What am I doing? This isn't me." I lost something of myself. There was that spark there when I spoke to the audience that was just gone. You know, I didn't have that, that cheeky presence, that playful silliness that I usually have. 

I was just trussed up in, in this strange gear and performing in a way that I just was disappointed with. It was like, it's not me. So I told myself, "I'm still a [00:26:00] musician, but I'm coming back to it when I'm ready." And I think that is all part of finding the balance, so you can actually have longevity in this industry. 

It's, there's no shame in stopping for a bit.  

Alexa: Amie McNee, who we've mentioned on the podcast before, who's, an author and, and an artist, she talks a lot on her Instagram channel about you are still an artist even if you haven't written something for a while or you haven't sung something for a while. You're still a singer. It's part of who you are, as we mentioned in the, in the beginning, and you don't have to be doing it all the time to have that title. 

We were speaking with Juliet Russell at the beginning of the year and we were speaking about, you know, the moments of needing to take a break and sometimes those are powerful. Those are powerful moments of reset, chance to fall in love with it again and to work on what the next stage is.  

Grace: Yeah, that's crucial. You gotta fall in love with it again. You [00:27:00] can't be doing it from a sense of competition or comparison. What's the point? You'll be miserable, and it won't even be good. People will feel when it's not genuine.  

Alexa: How do we help singers to build an identity that's a bit bigger than valuing themselves based off of success and whether they got the job or whether they got cut at an audition, how do we help ,people to continue to believe in themselves?  

Grace: Yeah, that's a big question, isn't it? If your worth is always what you've achieved, what then are you if you perceive yourself not to be achieving? But I always think back to the, th- one of the first books on self-help that I read was by Susan Jeffers. It's called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, and I quite often quote her on many of her things. 

One of the things she said was, "You've got to water all the parts of your life," and music would be just one square. If you [00:28:00] imagine your life on a grid, like of all different maybe six or seven squares, you've got music, you've got family, you've got work, you've got hobbies, you've got friends, you've got whatever else you do in your life. 

All of these things equate to who you are and your choices and who, and your life, and you can't put any one of them too much on a pedestal and water it, only that one. So when you're with your family, be completely with your family. When you're with your friends, be completely there. Put 101% into anything you're doing at any one time as much as you can. 

You know, you'll get burnout if you do it all the time, 'cause we're only human. But I really liked that because that meant that if one of them went for a time it's not like your whole world has just disappeared. You've got the rest of it there, and you can put your all into that. 

And ultimately, you'll find that when you're showing up for others, you're being that person in the workplace that just, [00:29:00] that acts as if you count, that's another thing she says you're bringing in donuts or something, you're smiling you're being that person around, in and around your life, whether there's music in it or not, you're showing people that it, there's more. 

There's, it's all about how you influence the people around you. What is life if it wasn't for other people? It's taking it down off that pedestal a bit.  

Alexa: I kind of think that encompasses the how do we encourage without feeding perfectionism and practical things that we can do to help people have a healthier relationship with music. 

Grace: Yeah, that would be part of it, coming at it from a holistic approach. But also in the actual music room or in the classroom, it could be as simple as changing your language, changing the way you speak to them. Say, if it's, if they're having trouble getting a high note, it's not, "Oh, your voice is sounding a bit hoarse today." It could be, "Oh, your cords aren't connecting quite as well today. Let's work out why." You know, it's more of a mechanical thing rather than a [00:30:00] personal thing, so they can detach themselves from the instrument. It's not their attached to their worth. 

Or you'd be redefining the practice regime. So practice isn't all about being perfect. It's not all about getting it perfect. It's about kindling the love that you have for it and thinking of it as more of an exploration, having a bit of curiosity there rather than just whipping your own back, you know, if I don't get it right.  

Alexa: Comparisonitis can be really rife. How can we help people with comparisonitis? How did you help, or how are you helping yourself with that? 

Grace: Yeah, that, that links back to leaning into who you are. And I, I always like to take the analogy of if you think of a musician that you really, really like, say, I, I appreciate someone like perhaps John Mayer, if you know some of his work. He's written some amazing songs. He's packed out stadiums. He's done some incredible work. But he can't [00:31:00] riff like Beyoncé or Tori Kelly or Mariah Carey. He doesn't have a singing voice like that, but nobody cares. Nobody even mentions that. It doesn't flit into their head because he is who he is. He's leaning into a certain style, and he uses his other attributes like his guitar playing, his character, and he is a, that package. 

It means not one iota that he can't do certain riffs. So comparison with somebody else is just stripping yourself down to one facet and, and weighing yourself up with that one tiny facet of yourself, whereas you are a whole package. 

I'm preaching like I, I do this, but I don't yet. I need to actually do this. 

Alexa: Oh, it's so much easier to give out the advice than to take it and apply it yourself, isn't it?  

Grace: I know, exactly. It's ... Because logically you know it's right, but then your ... It's the habit system that tells you, "No, in order to achieve and be safe," as it were, "you need to feel this way 'cause, 'cause you're gonna push [00:32:00] yourself if you feel rubbish about yourself." That's how it works for me. 

But that can be rewired. Neuroplasticity and all that. You can rewire that, if you keep reminding yourself of what is actually true, that you have a whole package of yourself to offer that's completely unique to anyone else in the room. It's completely unnecessary to value yourself or rate yourself on one little facet at a time. 

Alexa: One of the useful things that can really come out of being a singing teacher in a room is showing the singer that mistakes are welcome. A slip of the finger on the keyboard, or you demonstrate something and it doesn't go well, actually to be like, "Oh, yeah, wasn't meaning to do that. Let me try that again," just opens up this space of, oh, my gosh, we don't actually have to attach a huge meaning to a wrong note or an unintentional crack or anything like that. 

It's just it [00:33:00] happens, and it's okay.  

Grace: Yeah, I can think of examples straight away of, ''cause I teach a bit of piano as well. I have a, a piano student. I made a mistake and she, "You made a mistake." It's like, "Yes, I did, and I quite like it. I'm gonna keep it and I'm gonna do it again," you know? If you do it twice, it's not a mistake, it's just jazz, so... 

Alexa: What conversations do you think that we should be having more of that maybe we don't really think about or don't give enough importance to?  

Grace: Yeah, good question. One thing to, that I'm trying to put into more of my singing lessons, is unpacking why they chose the song they want to sing. 

What do they feel? It's not just about technically jumping through the hoops and getting the right coordination so you can hit the exactly same notes. Why is it that this song resonates with you? How can you make it resonate with other people? The emotional [00:34:00] side of the song, that can sometimes slip. 

But also, talking about all the other things that happen when you're on stage, like the performance anxiety, how that is not something that's wrong with you. It doesn't mean that you don't belong on stage if you have performance anxiety. It's something very natural, and you can explain exactly what's going on on a molecular level, you know? That you, you have this adrenaline that's causing some... perhaps you've got a, a very dry throat, or you've got shaky hands and... 

But that, that's completely normal, and if you have certain tools for them to regulate their nervous system, exercises that you can do just to engage your motor skills and take your concentration off of the anxiety, in your mind and the thoughts that are causing it. 

I've got a whole episode on this actually, but, there's... making people aware of what's actually happening in their body and how it's okay, and there, there are tools to help you regulate it. And that it's not a shameful [00:35:00] thing.  

Alexa: We have an episode too with Laura Dumbleton about managing nerves and those adrenaline feelings when you're about to go on stage, or when you're midway through a performance, or after a performance, you, how to deal with those. 

You have written award-winning songs and scores for local theatre and films. Where can we hear some of that catalogue of yours?  

Grace: Yeah, that's actually on Spotify. If you wanted to look it up, it was for, uh, a little short film that I did called Between the Lines. It was a few years ago now, but it was probably one of the highlights for me so far in terms of writing for film because it was a musical. 

So I wrote some songs for it, and it's all a bit of fun. It's about a girl who's trying to save a library from closure, and all of these literary characters come up. So, that's all on Spotify under Grace Hancock, Between the Lines, if you wanna have a listen, and it's on YouTube as well if you type in Between the Lines, as well. 

It's only a 15-minute [00:36:00] film, but it it got quite a bit of attention on the rounds that we did with the awards and things. And one of, one of the songs for it actually, one of my songs got an award from the Paris Film Awards- Wow ... which I was absolutely, absolutely over the moon about. 

Yeah, so, that's on there if anyone wants to have a look.  

Alexa: How did it feel for you to get an award for something? Did that help the feelings that you've had? 

Grace: Well, th- that's, that's a good question, too. I, I think immediately I got the the gratification from it because I'd worked so hard on it, but it was such, a love that came up from, from me in that particular project that I wasn't really trying to prove anything anyway at that time. I think that's why it worked, because I was just in the flow. 

I was just enjoying myself so much. I'm always trying to recreate that. Haven't yet.  

Alexa: Isn't it amazing, though, that you had a time in your life to reflect on that there was this moment where you were just being unapologetically you in a project and received this accolade, [00:37:00] and then later was to experience this feeling of not belonging or that something wasn't right? 

Did the experience with Between the Lines help you at all for later on when you had those feelings?  

Grace: Oh, I'd like to say they did in, in some kind of subconscious way. If they hadn't, if it hadn't have happened, I think it, I would've been a bit more lost than I was. 

At least I have a homing beacon 'cause I know what it feels like now. Somewhere to actually gravitate back towards, 'cause that's where I had my identity in music, and I lost it along the way. But at least I know vaguely what it feels like trying to navigate back to that.  

Alexa: Tell us about your online training course that you're putting together, which is Bring Your Singing To Life, the essential toolkit for your most expressive and authentic voice. 

Grace: Ah, yes. This is in works. It's going to be a little bit of everything that I feel is to do with [00:38:00] what makes a great performer. So obviously there's gonna be the foundational stuff of breath control and placement. But also range and registers, how to get the most out of your voice, strengthen your chest voice, head voice, introduce your mix voice. 

I had a very strong chest voice, but nothing much other than that, and it got me into my mixed voice and opened up my range. And also the pièce de résistance, I believe, is the details on top. The exactness and the details that just bring a performance to life, that bring you from amateur to professional sound, and it can be such a subtle little thing. 

But we hear them all the time on the radio and we don't e- we don't even notice, but if they weren't there, you'd think, "Oh, Adele sounds a bit rubbish today," if she wasn't doing those tiny details. So I'm gonna be talking about grace notes, groove and timing, dynamics, textures in the voice, all these things. 

Alexa: Amazing. Do you have a date for that as to when you hope to launch it? [00:39:00]  

Grace: I don't at the moment because my teaching has overtaken, but this is all the stuff I'm doing in my lessons anyway. And I provide them online as well. I'm gonna be based in Bristol soon. I'm moving but yeah, I'm looking to find some people in Bristol that would like to bump up their singing skills, either online or in person. And we talk about all that stuff.  

Alexa: And you have a podcast yourself. You mentioned it earlier. Can you tell us about that?  

Grace: Yeah, Curious Vocalists. 

I started that last year, and I'm on my 36th episode now, I think. Every Friday, and I bring on professionals in the industry and all, all sorts of different people from psychotherapists and singers and West End shows. I've even had, a TV star on from Coronation Street because he now does stuff on stage. And it's all about finding more fulfillment from your craft as a singer. So people who don't necessarily just want the technical info, but also how to make it a sustainable [00:40:00] and fulfilling career for themselves.  

Alexa: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Grace. 

I think this has been a really interesting and needed conversation because I think for other singers and teachers to note that there are others out there in the world who are doing the job but feeling like they're failing, like they shouldn't be there, these are all feelings that performers might experience during their careers, or during their training, or wherever that might come up for them, if it does. 

And so I think to be honest and open and explain to people, sometimes it's, does... it's not as shiny as it sometimes looks from the outside. But there are totally ways that we can deal with that and still accept that we are artists, even if in the moment we don't feel like we are one. 

So thank you so much for being really open with your stories and your experiences with your relationship with music, and how you have experienced that in professional settings, as well as how you're dealing with that and managing it [00:41:00] now from a different perspective. 

Where can listeners find out more about you and get in touch?  

Grace: Thanks. Yeah. Go to my website, which is gracehancockmusic.com, or you can find me on Instagram, which is gracehancockmusic. 

Alexa: Amazing. Thanks, Grace.  

Grace: Thanks so much for having me, Alexa.