The Marketing Is Human | Carol Kabaale

In this episode of the Profitable Creative, host Christian Brim speaks with Carol Kabaale, a marketing expert from South Africa. They discuss the importance of building genuine connections in marketing, the need for unique customer journeys, and the role of community in business. Carol shares her journey from corporate life to entrepreneurship, emphasizing the significance of creating opportunities rather than just focusing on sales. The conversation highlights the evolving landscape of marketing and the necessity for businesses to adapt and innovate. In this conversation, Carol Kabaale shares her journey into entrepreneurship, highlighting her passion for marketing and the challenges she faced in the early stages of her business. She discusses the importance of setting boundaries, understanding one's strengths, and the need for effective hiring to scale her business. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of valuing one's work and the impact of client relationships on business success.

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Transcript

Carol Kabaale (00:00.3)
where we can go.

Christian Brim (00:02.927)
Welcome to another episode of the Profitable Creative. I am your host, Christian Brim.

I'm going to start this one over, Nick, because I forgot my tagline. All right, here we go again.

Welcome to another edition of the profitable creative the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. am your host Christian Brim special shout out to our one listener and South Lake Tahoe, California. I don't know if Lake Tahoe California and Nevada if that's kind of like Kansas City where it's on the border. I assume it is but

Anyway, South and thanks for listening. Joining me today, Carol Kabaale Carol, welcome.

Carol Kabaale (00:56.45)
Thank you for having me, Christian. I'm so excited to be back and talking to you. So good stuff. It's going to be fun today.

Christian Brim (01:04.223)
So I know because Carol was on my other podcast, but for those listeners that don't know, she's coming to us from South Africa, correct? You're still, yes, okay, very good. But Carol, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Carol Kabaale (01:14.977)
That is great.

Carol Kabaale (01:23.928)
So I am many things, I think a lot of women are. I'm a wife, I have a fur baby, his name is Charlie, his little Boston Terrier. I enjoy eating carbs and having some white wine and Chardonnay. And then for business, I have a all female marketing agency that we help coaches find predictable leads and grow a warm pipeline. So, and we do that with meta ads.

Christian Brim (01:52.277)
Perfect. You said you specialize in coaches. Yes.

Carol Kabaale (01:56.814)
But service providers, can help too, but mostly coaches. They just seem to gravitate towards me. I'm not picky, but they find me.

Christian Brim (02:05.288)
Well, that was my next question. Was that intentional?

Carol Kabaale (02:09.678)
Not really, but I think because of lot of referrals, people talk. So it comes, it tends to come in those same circles. But yeah, if you are a person who is heart centered and is here for a bigger purpose, generally, most of those people tend to be in coaching nowadays. So yeah, they tend to gravitate towards me because we have similar values.

Christian Brim (02:14.632)
Yes.

Christian Brim (02:33.008)
And you primarily work with Meta. we're talking Facebook and Instagram. you do, what's up? That's interesting. Okay. So do you do paid search or is this just managing the content on those accounts?

Carol Kabaale (02:38.2)
Correct, as well as WhatsApp.

Carol Kabaale (02:43.918)
Hmm.

Carol Kabaale (02:49.794)
So it's paid search and we use paid search to move people to the second location. Like as much as I love meta, know, please stay around a little bit longer. I want people to build ecosystems outside of social. I want them to control their own sandboxes.

Christian Brim (03:07.31)
Mm hmm. Yeah, and that's one of the things that I'm seeing in the marketing realm and and not just from our experience marketing, but it's it's almost like we have to be a little counter cultural here and get them off of social.

and, it's, it's, that's, that's not an easy lift. but it's more about the connection. I was mentioning that, the pastor at the church I attend a couple of weeks ago said that, we as humans are more alone than at any time in human history. Now he didn't cite a quote.

Carol Kabaale (03:32.972)
Yes.

Carol Kabaale (03:38.08)
Mm-hmm

Christian Brim (03:59.405)
So I don't know if that was an actual study or just his opinion, but it resonated. And I do think there is this.

Carol Kabaale (04:03.672)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (04:11.244)
need for connection. And and I think you're limited on that connection just with with social

Carol Kabaale (04:19.938)
Yes.

I agree a hundred percent. also think it's such a, for lack of a better word, like a fake connection. Like everything is so curated. Everything is so planned. It almost feels like it's not real. Like you have to show up as someone that you're not really. And what I'm trying, you know, to do with my clients is to say, Hey, this is who I am. And if you like what you see, let's hang out somewhere else. Let's talk on emails. Let's talk on like.

Christian Brim (04:27.06)
you

Christian Brim (04:34.417)
huh.

Carol Kabaale (04:50.584)
messages, let's create a community somewhere else where you don't have to depend on the algorithm and hope like it brings you back and we find each other again. So it feels like a more intimate conversation, which I think a lot of people are craving.

Christian Brim (05:01.106)
Yo.

Christian Brim (05:07.056)
Absolutely. It's the connection. do you, do you, encourage or facilitate, live events with your clients?

Carol Kabaale (05:17.652)
Yeah, so we do. So mainly I like to focus on three seasons. The first season is like, are you looking to be visible to engage if you already have a big following or even if you have a small following like 2000 followers, do they even see your posts? So that's season of visibility. Like that's one thing that we do. Next one is moving them off to another location. So that's more lead generation. So offering something in return for an email or moving them to set other location.

And the last one is everybody's favorite, it's sales. It's where we say like, hey, come to the launch, come to this event, buy my book, buy my course. But I don't like to lead with that one just because I really think where you need connection, you need to nurture people.

And that's where people get ads in particularly wrong is that they want to start with the sale. They want to lead with buy my stuff, buy my stuff. And then people are like, so put off by it. And then they wonder why their ads are not working.

Christian Brim (06:15.836)
Yeah, and I understand that because if you're spending money, you know, to do ads, you want to see some type of return for it. You know, I had this thought yesterday as I was working through some things and I want to bounce this off you. This is you're the first person that I'm sharing this with. So I'm curious. You know, I I have been.

Carol Kabaale (06:21.006)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (06:24.878)
correct.

Carol Kabaale (06:36.778)
Ooh, that's exciting. Hit me.

Christian Brim (06:45.955)
Tangentially interested and involved in in marketing because that's what I did for the company for 25 years. And so I would, you know, follow gurus. I would hire agencies. I would, you know, I spent a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of effort.

Carol Kabaale (06:57.23)
Mm.

Carol Kabaale (07:14.179)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (07:14.662)
And something came to my head yesterday that like, okay, everything in marketing has, has, been created. Like it didn't exist at some point. Right. And someone came up with this, you know, whether it's a, a sales funnel or, you know, social media itself. mean, like,

Carol Kabaale (07:33.88)
Thank you.

Christian Brim (07:44.305)
Everything is was created at some point, but we tend I tend to gravitate to those things that have worked for others and that's what marketing professionals tend to push is, you know, a known commodity, you know, like this has worked elsewhere and it's worked in the past. So we'll we'll try this for you.

Carol Kabaale (08:03.288)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (08:13.224)
But this idea that every sales journey, every customer's journey could be approached uniquely. Like you could create a completely novel way to connect with your customers and engage them and sell them that's never, never been tried before. What are your thoughts?

Carol Kabaale (08:24.493)
Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (08:33.976)
Yes.

I love that idea. Yeah. I think that's what makes marketing exciting because it's, there's not one right way to do anything. Most times when I run ads or we create these ecosystems or these opportunities for our clients, it's unique to them. It's this customer experience that works for you. Some people don't like to talk on DMs. Some people want to just sign up people and have them come to a launch, to an event. Some people are like, no, I need to get on a call with

them and feel their energy and their vibe before I let them anywhere near me. And I think all those things are unique, right? What isn't unique is where you find them. So I always say the customer journey can be very individualized and it should be because every business is not the same.

However, the thing you have before it, in my case, it's meta ads, that's the thing that amplifies it. That's the beacon that says, hey, look at me, I've got the solution. And if you have another platform, could be, you you could be on YouTube and they find you that way. It could be that you're on another social platform like TikTok and they saw a video. The beginning can always change. And I feel that it will always change as we go into things like AI and as things progress.

The beginning will always shift, but the journey you take people on is generally the same. They have a problem, you have a solution, you figure out if you're a good fit and someone buys. That's it.

Christian Brim (10:07.932)
Yeah, no, no, I would agree with that. They share common elements. But the and I guess my my father, where I was going with that for us was like, why be stuck in what someone else thinks will work versus us who understand our our customers best?

Carol Kabaale (10:13.848)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (10:21.912)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (10:36.606)
coming up with our own way of connecting with them. For instance, we started last month, we did a pilot here in our home city of Oklahoma City to do a, we called it the creative connection hour. And we just did a cocktails and hors d'oeuvres.

Carol Kabaale (11:00.27)
Mm.

Christian Brim (11:05.8)
business owners in creative industries. And we had no idea. Huh? What if you want to come, you're welcome. Well, I mean, I didn't think you'd make the trip, but you're welcome to.

Carol Kabaale (11:08.824)
I'm gonna need an invite. I'm gonna need an invite.

I mean, you had me at Odoves. Really, you had me at Odoves.

Christian Brim (11:18.804)
Well, they weren't that good. So, you know, we had no idea what would come and we just put it out there and we had like 20 people show up and I was thrilled by that, right? And the intent was nothing other than to get these people together to, you know, not to network, but to just get to know each other, right?

Carol Kabaale (11:34.04)
Yes.

Carol Kabaale (11:44.526)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (11:44.733)
And so we're going to do another one this month and, and, and we're, just trying something new. And really our intent is not to drum up business. mean, we didn't do a sales pitch. There was no sales pitch at all. because we just, we just see this need for connection in the space and we're facilitating it. And you know, sure. It will probably generate some fruit in, in, the future, but

I think the other thing that business owners get really locked into, and I got locked into it for a long time is, this concept that marketing is some kind of machine where you can put X dollars in the front and get some multiple out the back. And that's just, that doesn't exist. I mean, it's not that you can't create it.

I do believe that you can create that machine, but it's not like I can come to you, Carol, and say, do you have a machine? Can I borrow it? You know, it, can I lease it? It doesn't work that way.

Carol Kabaale (12:38.21)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (12:46.017)
Exactly.

Carol Kabaale (12:49.824)
No, I completely understand and I totally get that. I think this concept of I've invested money so I should get money out is very bizarre to me because when I look at marketing as a whole, I always look at it as opportunities. It's just creating an opportunity for conversation, an opportunity to position yourself as a leader, as a person who is an authority, as a person who can educate like you yourself. You just create a community.

You may not have sold, but that has made an impact in someone. They're like, wow, that was such a nice event. And they probably spoke about it to other people.

And if they figure out what it is that you do, they're like, I was looking for someone and they had such a nice event. it all is an opportunity for something else where I think the misconception comes in is that a lot of people confuse marketing for sales. Sales is when like you're like, hey, this outcome has to happen. You had a call. Did you close or didn't you close? Like that is outcome driven where marketing you for lack of a better word, you just.

Christian Brim (13:42.238)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (13:56.91)
Provide opportunities and you see what comes of it. And you try to steer them obviously into a sales conversation because a lot of people need that revenue. for most of the part, it's really creating those opportunities and making sure you have that journey in place to be like, what is the next step? If there is one.

Christian Brim (14:03.55)
Right.

Christian Brim (14:17.054)
Yes. And a lot of my listeners that have heard me preach about marketing ROI are probably going to think that I'm committing heresy saying what I'm saying. it's, you know, if for lack of a better term, the marketing is the creative side of it. And there's not always tangible results that are measurable. Well, let me let me rephrase that. think. Right, but but but there are.

Carol Kabaale (14:41.602)
Yes, they are and they aren't, depends how you do it, but yes, I get where you're going with it.

Christian Brim (14:48.084)
There are things that are tangible that actually do happen, but they're not necessarily measurable. Like if you're building a community and people feel connected and they feel value in that connection and appreciation, well, you can't measure that. mean, you know, so, but is there value? Yes. And I don't think from a business standpoint, you should just...

Carol Kabaale (14:54.658)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (15:06.317)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (15:14.942)
cast about your marketing dollars willy-nilly, I think they need to be intentional. But for us, for instance, this event, like we started here in Oklahoma City, but if it proves the concept, we're going to go spend time and start these in other locations. And so it's more about testing and iterating. It's more like, well, let's try this. Let's see what happens. And then if that works, well, let's do more of that.

Carol Kabaale (15:33.198)
Huh.

Carol Kabaale (15:44.652)
Yeah. And that's a great way to also just to think about marketing in general. It's like you have a concept, you come up with a campaign or you come up with a theory. Let's try and attract them this way. okay. So that graphic worked well or that video worked well. Well, what did we do in it? What did we say in it? It's like you analyze those points and you try to recreate that magic again and be like, let's try and get the same outcome. Doesn't always happen that way, but nine out of 10, you get pretty close, you know, and you're like,

You know, let's try again.

Christian Brim (16:14.088)
Well, did we discuss Rory Sutherland's book Alchemy when we talked last time?

Carol Kabaale (16:22.252)
I'm not too sure. But we can chat about it. I haven't read it, but you can let me know.

Christian Brim (16:23.398)
Okay, have you read the book? It's brilliant. I highly recommend it. Rory is a director with Ogilvy and he wrote this book. It's titled something differently in the UK, but in the US it was titled Alchemy. And he basically goes through and talks about it. Ostensibly it's about marketing, but

Carol Kabaale (16:35.747)
Mmm.

Carol Kabaale (16:51.809)
Okay.

Christian Brim (16:52.948)
He really kind of goes on this treaties about the, the limitations of the age of reason. And, and it's, it's actually very humorous. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a great read. He did a great job, but he talks about how, you know, marketing you're dealing with individuals and, and, and groups of individuals and they're inherently irrational. And you know, it's an

Carol Kabaale (17:21.006)
Sounds about right.

Christian Brim (17:23.328)
Right. And so, you know, you can do all the reasoning you want and all the analysis you want and you should, but it's limited. Like at the end of the day, it's not going to give you a complete answer because people aren't predictable. And, you know, a lot of what he talks about is like, well, I think this might work, but I don't know. So we're going to try it. Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (17:35.69)
Mm-hmm. Correct.

Carol Kabaale (17:45.228)
Yeah. So I agree with like that. What you've just said is like half my clients. I think this has worked because we've done it before, like you said, and it's worked. We've done it with similar people and it's worked. But ultimately I also like to remind my clients that people buy when they're ready to buy, not because you're having a sale or because you've decided to launch a book or because you have a new program.

They don't care. Like they're like, I have this problem. Now I'm going to buy. I need support in this thing. Or I want to be a part of this community. It's on their own timeline. It may be something that in the marketing, in what you put together, it's triggered something in them. It's activated something in them where they're like, huh, let me dive deeper into that concept, into that product, into that person. But before that moment, it's like.

Just trying to get, you're fighting cat videos, man. You're fighting flipping cat videos. And like you're playing with this attention. That's what we're playing with. We're trying to get people's attention and it's hard because cats are cute and it's hard to compete against them.

Christian Brim (18:42.516)
That's exactly right. That's right.

Christian Brim (18:55.397)
Carol I hate kids so there I said it I've said it on the show before

Carol Kabaale (18:58.048)
I'm actually secretly, I'm secretly a dog. I am a dog person, but I know a lot of people resonate with the cute cat. So that's my, I go to that analogy a lot.

Christian Brim (19:06.054)
I'm unabashedly, unabashedly anti-cats. mean, not like, not like, their existence is fine. I'm not like eradicate cats just as pets. I have no interest in having a cat as a pet.

Carol Kabaale (19:18.934)
Is it because they're just so like by themselves and like so removed? Because that's what triggers me about them. I'm like, why don't you just come and play with me like my dog does? But you're like standing there like, it's the human. I don't know what that is about.

Christian Brim (19:30.994)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I could go down that. And my theory on cat and dog people, yeah. So I want to pivot and ask a question, more practical maybe. So how long have you been in business?

Carol Kabaale (19:38.477)
No, no, no, it's fine. We'll chat about the cats after the call.

Carol Kabaale (19:47.65)
Yes.

Carol Kabaale (19:51.235)
Good.

Nine years.

Christian Brim (19:55.165)
Okay. And before that, what was your experience? What did you work in marketing?

Carol Kabaale (19:59.854)
So yes, I worked in corporate for Hilton for I did business development, which was interesting. Yeah.

Christian Brim (20:07.142)
And what prompted you to leave that and start your own agency?

Carol Kabaale (20:14.7)
I wanted more choice in my life. So when you work in hospitality, you seldom have choice because when everybody's on vacation, you're at work. So you live past people.

And at the time I was in a relationship to my husband and we were high school sweethearts so we've actually been together for like nine years at the time then. And I always make the joke Chris that he was like, hey, I need your blood type and then I can marry you. So I was like, no worries, I got you. Here's my blood type. And then he finally proposed nine years later. So that's the secret ladies. If you want to ring, just tell him your blood type. That's all he's waiting for.

Christian Brim (20:28.83)
Hmm.

Christian Brim (20:55.442)
Okay. You're going to have to fill in the gaps on that one. So, so it was that to get the marriage license. What, what, why did he need

Carol Kabaale (20:58.542)
you

Carol Kabaale (21:02.782)
No, that was just to get him to propose. Just to get him to propose. So

Christian Brim (21:07.058)
And so why did he want your blood type?

Carol Kabaale (21:10.484)
No, it's a joke, but I see it's not landing, but that's okay. That's okay. So basically I was in this relationship for nine years and you know, as a woman, sort of like, think after like year three, you start going like, is he going to propose? Is he not? And I patiently waited for nine years. So I always say like, I think he needed my blood type. Like that was the last box that he was waiting to take. Got you.

Christian Brim (21:12.956)
I help me understand. I'm sorry. Okay.

Christian Brim (21:30.771)
I see.

Christian Brim (21:34.884)
okay, all right, got it, all right. Well, he could have asked that very early on. See, where I thought you were going with that is it was something like how I could identify you if you got lost because I never see you kind of thing. That's where my head

Carol Kabaale (21:39.138)
Got it, got it, got it. I mean, he could've.

Carol Kabaale (21:54.606)
You are a very practical thinker, very much like my husband, hence why you both would have needed my blood type. That makes a lot of sense. much so. So once he proposed, no worries, so once he proposed, I just knew that I didn't want to keep living past my family, past important events and moments and milestones in life. And it wasn't going to happen in the corporate job that I had. I also saw that financially,

Christian Brim (22:00.786)
Yes. Okay. So go ahead.

Carol Kabaale (22:23.788)
to get to where I wanted to be or the life that I wanted to have, I would have had to wait a really long time because everybody who made the amount of money that I thought that I still think I need to make is very old. And I was like in my 20s and they were like in their like 50s and like 60s. And I was like, I'm gonna have to wait 40 years. This is crazy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, can't do that.

So I decided to look for something else and what really screamed at me and what I was passionate about was one, helping people being of service to being creative. and then I liked a little bit of data. I liked a little bit of something that wasn't just fluff. I didn't just make it up. So I settled on the marketing field. and within that I settled on ads and that was nine years ago.

Christian Brim (23:17.78)
So your traditional motivation to be an entrepreneur, financial and time freedom. Yeah, okay. So some people that start their entrepreneurial journey with those intents in mind land in a place where they're maybe working harder than they were before and or not making as much money as they were before. Did you experience that?

Carol Kabaale (23:23.288)
Correct. Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (23:29.496)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (23:39.938)
you

Carol Kabaale (23:48.13)
yes, so here's a fun fact. I quit and I didn't tell anybody in my family that I was quitting because I didn't want anybody to talk me out of it. So I took my savings and I started my company and I was burning through my savings and I was, I'm addicted, I have to confess to knowledge. So it was the boom of everybody and...

Christian Brim (23:56.243)
Right?

Carol Kabaale (24:11.52)
has a course, a program or something, and I just wanted to gravitate. I wanted everything. I wanted to know everything. So was reading every book. I was showing up to every masterclass webinar. I was in so many coaching programs and things. And very quickly I went into debt and I had so much credit card debt, especially the first two years. I actually worked it out on another podcast, which was like more financially. I had an apartment's worth of debt. Like that's how much debt I was in.

Christian Brim (24:39.162)
Okay. Okay.

Carol Kabaale (24:41.046)
Like it was crazy, but I knew that I was meant to do this because the few clients that I had, even though they weren't paying me a lot, even though I wasn't confident enough to like raise my prices, the joy I had out of them, the fact that I was just at home, the fact that I wasn't going into an office, that I was being a part of my family again, like that meant more to me. So I stayed the course and

Christian Brim (24:48.308)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (25:10.476)
Yeah, it did get better, but it was hard in the beginning. It was hard.

Christian Brim (25:14.386)
What was the switch financially? Where did that tipping point come where you started making more money than you were spending?

Carol Kabaale (25:27.36)
So that changed for me when one, I was brave enough to put more boundaries into my business. And that meant increasing my pricing, not letting so much scope creep, not working insane hours for things that hadn't happened, being very truthful in what I can do and couldn't do. I think when I started, I just said yes to everything because I was so scared to say no.

Christian Brim (25:54.356)
Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (25:54.478)
But I quickly learned I don't like building things. I don't like design. I don't like spending time on Photoshop or Canva or things like that. I enjoy the strategy. I enjoy looking at things and looking at the systems. And once I really honed in on that, my clients got the best version of me and I was able to get better results for them and I was able to charge more. So that really helped.

Christian Brim (26:21.342)
That paragraph, those couple of sentences that you just said there are very profound because there were like three things in there that I was like, I want to pull out. The first is that there's this tendency, especially when we don't have experience and or knowledge to not act because it's an unknown, right?

Carol Kabaale (26:33.134)
Mm.

Carol Kabaale (26:50.285)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (26:50.588)
And, there's a, there's a fantastic book on this. I read a lot in case you hadn't noticed, a fantastic book. my, my business coach recommended, and it's called the big leap and it's a Stanford psychologist, professor. He's written several books, but, are you familiar with it? Yes. Yeah. And, but, but essentially it talks about how our brains are wired for protection.

Carol Kabaale (26:57.902)
No, you wouldn't say.

Carol Kabaale (27:11.266)
The one with the goldfish. I've seen it. Yes.

Christian Brim (27:18.924)
And, and, and when we go into an unknown result, our, our, our mind and sometimes our body starts to work against us. so the, I, I did a post on LinkedIn a few weeks ago. I tracked the statistics of, of people that have bought my book that sign up for the free resources. And, after a year of being published 6%.

Carol Kabaale (27:42.926)
Mm.

Christian Brim (27:48.263)
sign up for the free resources, okay, of the book sold. Now I know that some people buy the book and never read it. Some people don't read the whole thing. And only 6 % of them will actually reach out and get the free resources to actually implement some of the things that are in the book, right? And that's reality. I don't know that it's 6 % across the board for everything.

Carol Kabaale (27:57.634)
Mm.

Christian Brim (28:16.488)
but a very small percentage of people will actually act on anything, regardless of how much they know, right? I mean, they'll just continue to be in that learning mode. And so I would tell people, I would tell our listeners, understand that exists. And like, if you're just telling yourself that you've got to learn some more to do, you don't, you just need to do.

Carol Kabaale (28:25.174)
Yes, yes, yes,

Carol Kabaale (28:30.082)
Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (28:44.662)
Yes. Yep. Yep.

Christian Brim (28:45.766)
Right? The second thing I want to pull out about what you said was.

that because we feel like we don't have experience and or knowledge, we tend to say yes to everything and or not charge enough. And the reality is that when we don't charge much, people don't see value in what we do because you know,

Carol Kabaale (29:07.992)
Correct.

Carol Kabaale (29:19.244)
Yes.

Christian Brim (29:19.86)
There's a reason why people pay $25,000 for a Rolex. It's not that it's a better watch. It's that it is of that value to them, right? So the customer can only define the value. I can't define the value, you can't define the value. But what happens then is when you charge less than your worth,

Carol Kabaale (29:24.61)
Mm-hmm

Carol Kabaale (29:33.258)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (29:49.446)
You attract people that don't value what you do.

Carol Kabaale (29:53.464)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (29:54.357)
And actually, they're the worst people to have because they run you around, because they don't value what you do.

Carol Kabaale (29:59.906)
Yes.

Carol Kabaale (30:04.344)
Yeah, it's like they think you're doing them a favor and I'm like, I'm not doing you a favor, sir. I'm just doing and then the more you do, the worse it gets because it's like they expect it. no, I know that kind of person. No, no thank you.

Christian Brim (30:09.928)
Exactly.

Christian Brim (30:19.452)
Yes, that's exactly right. And you know, I said there were three things, I've already forgotten the third, but those first two were great. you know, those are solid.

Carol Kabaale (30:27.422)
Those were brilliant. I probably cut your train of thought, but it's going to come back. know.

Christian Brim (30:32.026)
No, no, I'm an old man and I forget things. I should write them down.

Carol Kabaale (30:37.664)
Nah! Nah! It's okay.

Christian Brim (30:39.732)
So what is the, what is the, you know, you've been doing this for nine years, you've had success. What is the business? I don't want to say problem because that has a negative connotation. It might not be a negative thing. Opportunity problem issue. What are you chewing on? What are you struggling with? What's, what's occupying your mind?

Carol Kabaale (30:46.616)
Yes.

Carol Kabaale (30:59.246)
Sure.

Carol Kabaale (31:11.148)
So at the moment it's how do I clone myself? I'm kind of there. I... Yes. There we go. There we go. Let's go back. I will remember cloning myself.

Christian Brim (31:15.636)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (31:21.022)
That reminds me of my third thing, but go ahead, finish your thought.

Christian Brim (31:26.748)
Okay, well, it's exactly to your cloning yourself. And it was, you said you didn't like to do Photoshop and Canva and you like the strategy part. And that third thing is, I think what's really key starting out is understanding what you're really good at, where you bring the value and letting other people do the other stuff.

Carol Kabaale (31:38.68)
Yes.

Christian Brim (31:53.139)
Because it, it, it's not that, you know, for me, it was, it felt a little bit like, well, I'm going to get people to do the stuff I don't want to do. But, but that's, that's not the reality. The reality is that they're going to be better at it because they want to do it and they like it. and so let's come back to your cloning yourself. What, what, why do you say you need to clone yourself?

Carol Kabaale (32:05.698)
and

Carol Kabaale (32:18.318)
So I do have a team and I'm very thankful for them, but I feel like there is a piece missing in my team. So I'm looking, I'm actively looking for someone who's more able to be like a conductor, if you will, because I have a decentralized agency. So I work with other contractors and service providers and it all comes together as like under one roof.

And it's usually me orchestrating everything. So it's me talking to clients, bringing things in. So I need a middle person who understands enough of my strategy to think a little bit like me, but is also great at the backend stuff and keeping every thing moving. And I would love to have someone like that so that when I take a little bit of time off to stop my family, it all doesn't stop.

Christian Brim (33:11.336)
Have you attempted?

Carol Kabaale (33:11.406)
Because right now that's where the block I see is coming.

Christian Brim (33:15.262)
Okay. Have you, have you attempted to fill that position before?

Carol Kabaale (33:20.596)
I have, and I'm not great at hiring. will also, I'll also say that I tend to hire on personality, which is bad. but I also think that's a big thing. I need someone who is who I can get along with. don't just want someone who it's awkward, you know, so sometimes they're great and then they're not. And it's like, so I'm still looking. If you're out there, hit me up.

Christian Brim (33:33.108)
I

Christian Brim (33:48.757)
Okay, so a couple of things on this. My assistant brought her dog. I don't know if you can hear it barking in the background. Yeah. He's a miniature dachshund and I don't know if you've ever owned a dachshund. I owned a dachshund for a long time. Yeah, they're complete assholes. I mean, they are the most vicious dog, aggressive dog.

Carol Kabaale (33:53.623)
Yes.

Carol Kabaale (33:58.586)
I created a little block. That's fun.

Carol Kabaale (34:05.546)
Yes, I have a black one and he was so cute.

Carol Kabaale (34:13.688)
Yeah.

Christian Brim (34:18.804)
in the known universe.

Carol Kabaale (34:19.746)
For such a small dog, they have such big personalities. They like who they like and they will let you know. trust me. Yeah. Yeah. Ours was called Kevin. My mom gave it a human name and I thought it was hilarious whenever she had to shout at this dog. She's like, Kevin, stop that. Kevin. I'm like, dude, they don't care. They absolutely do not.

Christian Brim (34:26.132)
Yeah, 100%. I had.

Christian Brim (34:37.416)
And they don't know that they don't listen. They're obstinate as hell. No, no. And and I had mine. Mine ran out the front door and there was a German shepherd on a leash. Somebody was walking and my docks and jumps the German shepherd. I'm like, and the German shepherds just kind of look at it. I'm like, what the hell, man? Like, what are you doing? Yeah. Anyway, back to my thought.

Carol Kabaale (34:58.828)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Back to your thoughts.

Christian Brim (35:08.532)
I think you're not unusual for a lot of reasons. I never hired anybody in my previous work experience. And so when I got into business, I didn't know anything about hiring anybody and I was awful at it. And it wasn't until I was exposed to the book, who another book, I know.

Carol Kabaale (35:25.431)
Yes.

Carol Kabaale (35:34.945)
Love it.

Christian Brim (35:36.029)
by Daniel Smart and his dad Jeff Smart did the, I think it was the Strength Finders. Anyway, they're big into workplace psychology. But the book Who is really about the process of sourcing, interviewing, and hiring people. And it really gave me a process to follow that I have found to be really, really powerful.

Carol Kabaale (35:47.552)
Okay.

Christian Brim (36:04.158)
So that's my recommendation to you and to the listeners is who. but coming back to what that position you're, trying to fill that is, a difficult position to fill. it's, it's, it's one of those, as my, my, my friend drew Goodman's and calls an entrepreneurial inflection point. It's, one of those points where you have to change in order for the business to grow.

Carol Kabaale (36:06.454)
Well, thank you.

Carol Kabaale (36:19.458)
Mm-hmm.

Christian Brim (36:33.776)
And the entrepreneur generally is very interested in the new ideas, the energy around the startup, you know, all of that stuff. But when it comes to running the business, we quickly lose interest. And that's natural.

Carol Kabaale (36:52.94)
Yes, yeah, it's not exciting. It's like the fun stuff is creating. Now it's like, we have to keep it. It's like, okay, I guess we have to do this.

Christian Brim (37:00.113)
Right, that

And so we have a choice at that point. We have a choice to turn that over to somebody else or continue slogging through it. And usually the slogging through it doesn't work. my opinion, in my experience, what happened was I got burnt out. Like I walked away from my business after, you know, 17 years, I was like, I can't do this anymore because I just disliked it that much. And my passion was gone from it.

And it all came down to managing people, managing customers and, you know, setting up processes and, know, all of that stuff that I don't do well. and, so, you know, hiring somebody to do that, even on a fractional basis, you know, even if it's not a full time basis, is, is a real key to make that step next forward. So I applaud you for recognizing.

Carol Kabaale (37:42.478)
Mm.

Carol Kabaale (37:51.874)
Yes.

Christian Brim (37:58.805)
and figuring out what it was that you needed to move forward. And I wish you best in finding that person because it's not easy.

Carol Kabaale (38:07.79)
Thank you. I know they're out there, I just need to find them. I think they, I've even thought about this. Perhaps I'm looking, I'm asking too much of one person. So maybe if I split the role, but then I need someone to, like one of them needs to be a little bit more ownership so that they can manage the other person. I don't know. So anyway, but thank you for wishing me well. We will find the person.

Christian Brim (38:33.926)
Well, and as you said that, I thought of yet another book, Dan Sullivan's Who Not How. And that really is about like, know, again, if you think about it, we're not wired for that, right? Like, so we're not wired for the operational stuff. And so we try to solve the problem before we pick the right person.

Carol Kabaale (38:54.476)
Yes.

Christian Brim (39:01.01)
And it's like, no, find the person. They'll figure out how to do it because that exactly we need to figure out the who, not the how. And then when we find the right person, they'll figure out how to get it done. That's that's, but, to your point, you know, hiring on personality is not a bad thing. think culture fit is, is Uber important, but, but for my, my experience, what I was doing is I was looking

Carol Kabaale (39:02.19)
Thank

How to.

Yeah.

Yes.

Carol Kabaale (39:22.979)
Mmm.

Christian Brim (39:27.748)
not for the specific skills that I didn't have and wouldn't necessarily be able to identify in somebody that I was interviewing. Like, you know, how do I know if they're good at this? Because I'm not good at it, right? And that's why the that's how the book, Who, not who, not how helped with that process, because it's about identifying the outcomes.

Carol Kabaale (39:41.356)
Right.

Christian Brim (39:55.081)
that you want from this position and then figuring out what experience and skills they need to be able to reach those outcomes and then interviewing to see if they have those experience and skills. But it starts foundationally with figuring out what you need from that person on an outcome basis, not a...

Carol Kabaale (40:07.362)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Kabaale (40:14.395)
Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (40:21.09)
first.

Christian Brim (40:24.823)
if that makes sense.

Carol Kabaale (40:26.592)
No, it does make sense. It definitely makes sense. Like once I figure out what they need to do, then reverse engineer from there.

Christian Brim (40:33.32)
Well, it's not even necessarily what they need to do. It's the outcomes you need, right? I need, I need this to happen, this to happen, and this to happen. I don't know how it happens. I don't know what you need to do to make that happen. Exactly. I need this to happen.

Carol Kabaale (40:38.155)
Okay.

Carol Kabaale (40:44.504)
But I just need it to happen. Yes. Yeah. Okay. No, I love that. Okay. I've got some homework. I do like homework. So thank you. I'm going to go and do that. very exciting. Very exciting stuff. I was really one of those boring children at school who got excited when pop quizzes and things happen. was like, yes, secretly. So great. Yeah.

Christian Brim (40:55.572)
There'll be a quiz next time you show up, so be prepared.

Christian Brim (41:10.74)
I didn't mind those.

Carol Kabaale (41:11.298)
But I never said to the teacher that she hasn't checked homework. I was never like one of those like, you have, no, no, no, no, I'm not that crazy. But I did like a test.

Christian Brim (41:18.836)
Yeah. Yeah. Those, those kids were the worst. Yeah. You just want to slap them across the head.

Carol Kabaale (41:23.458)
Right? I'm like, shh, be quiet. They're like, dude, we nearly got away with it. Be quiet.

Christian Brim (41:31.558)
Yeah. Yeah. Especially those absent minded teachers that you could get sidetracked with stories. I love those. Tell us about this. Yeah. Yeah.

Carol Kabaale (41:38.882)
They would just tell you about their day, their vacation. I love your top. really? Whole 20 minutes. We didn't learn anything. Love that. Great stuff.

Christian Brim (41:43.868)
Yeah, yes, it was perfect. I loved it. Carol, how do people find out more about you and what you do?

Carol Kabaale (41:54.586)
that's great. So everywhere on the wonderful internet, my name is simply Carol Kabale. You can see it on the screen. It'll be in the show notes. And if you are thinking of building your own little ecosystem outside of social, I have a really fun quiz. It's only two minutes. And after you take the quiz, it will tell you if you're ready to run Facebook ads, if you should be building an ecosystem outside of social.

And yeah, it's a great way to start before you test with money, because no one wants to do that.

Christian Brim (42:24.884)
And to clarify you are in South Africa, but you you do work with clients in North America So did I say South America South Africa? I don't know what I said

Carol Kabaale (42:32.75)
Correct. All of my clients actually are in, yeah, most of my clients are actually on Eastern. And I've got like two or three on Pacific, but yeah, all my clients are actually based in the U S.

Christian Brim (42:46.58)
Perfect. Listeners will have that information and links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, shoot us a note, tell us what you'd like to hear and I'll replace Carol. Until then, ta ta for now.

Carol Kabaale (42:48.238)
You