Untamed Leader: Standing in Your True Frequency

What if leadership isn’t about certainty or strategy?

In this first-ever Untamed Leader Conversation, Lauri Smith is joined by intuitive guide Jeni Holla and catalyst-for-change Giselle Jennaway for a raw, spacious, and deeply embodied exploration of what it means to lead from truth rather than conditioning.

Together, we question inherited models of leadership rooted in control, approval, and performance—and illuminate a different path: one shaped by sovereignty, intuition, and the courage to stand alone in a frequency before anyone joins you.

From the difference between “choice” and true freedom, to releasing self-abandonment, to the quiet power of saying so what to fear, this conversation is about remembering who you already are in order to be the leader the world needs now.

This is leadership without a checklist.
 Presence without performance.
 And an invitation into the wild, untamed edge of your own truth.

Takeaways

1. True leaders often aren’t trying to lead—they’re following an inner call and others follow naturally.
2. Leadership often begins by standing in a frequency alone, without validation or approval.
3. Self-abandonment is not leadership—sovereignty requires staying rooted in your truth, even when it’s uncomfortable.
4. The illusion of choice inside a narrow system is not freedom; true sovereignty lives beyond conditioned structures.
5. Untamed leadership asks you to follow intuitive knowing before the rational mind catches up.
6. Strategy and control belong to the “tamed” self; freedom lives in the space between the notes.
7. Exhaustion, grief, and rupture can become portals—sometimes the unknown is kinder than the familiar pain.
8. Saying “so what?” dissolves fear’s power and returns you to motion.
9. You don’t need to acquire anything to lead—everything you need is already inside you.


About Giselle:
As a catalyst to change, Giselle Jennaway creates spaces where people can perceive what is hidden in plain sight, access their own wisdom, realise their own agency and set themselves free to live the life that is uniquely theirs.

Connect with Giselle:
www.whitelionealchemy.earth
@mamalionesse on Instagram

About Jeni:
Jeni Holla is an intuitive spiritual guide, ret

Soul Sucker Quiz

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The Speaker Alter Ego Quiz

Take the Speaker Alter Ego quiz to find out which protective mask hides your natural radiance so you can learn how to get present, connect deeply, and share your vision when it matters most!

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Chapters

• 1:43 What the word "leader" sparks
• 3:54 Reclaiming Leadership from Outdated Models
• 4:56 Hell No, Hell Yes: Letting Intuition Lead
• 7:42 Standing in the Frequency (and the Fear of Being Alone There)
• 10:41 The Illusion of Choice vs. True Sovereignty
• 14:24 What “Untamed Leader” Really Means
• 16:36 Conditioning, Taming, and the Call into the Wild
• 23:21 Choosing the Unknown
• 36:18 From Strategy to Presence: Life Between the Notes
• 44:02 The Surprising Phrase That Disarms Fear
• 45:57 You’re Already Equipped: Remembering Who You Truly Are

Transcript

00:00 | Lauri | Welcome to the very first untamed leader conversation. I have Giselle Jennaway and Jeni Holla back with me. I will reintroduce them to you in case you forgot or this is your first time meeting them. As a catalyst to change, Giselle Jennaway creates spaces where people can perceive what is hidden in plain sight, access their own wisdom, realize their own agency, and set themselves free to live the life that is uniquely theirs. Jeni Holla is an intuitive spiritual guide, retreat leader, and transformational coach who helps people move from overwhelm back into clarity, reconnecting them to the rhythm that feels most true and alive within them. And if you're sensing a theme that is accidentally, intuitively on purpose, welcome, Jenny and Giselle.
01:01 | Giselle | Um, thanks for having us, Lauri.
01:05 | Lauri | I'm going to go ahead and ask, uh, you the question that popped into my head. What does the word leader spark in you?
01:22 | Giselle | All my favorite leaders, uh, are not really interested in leading. Like, they'd much rather be dangling their legs over a cliff talking to dolphins, or just, like, enjoying, like, the beauty of life. But something in them is called forward. And in leading themselves, they end up looking behind and noticing that they're leading others as well.
01:50 | Lauri | Awesome.
01:51 | Jeni | Jenny M. That was beautiful, Giselle. And to be, uh, straight up, what first hit me was that little bit of fear, that little bit of, you know, intrepidation of, like, man. Because I think for me, I've always known at some level I meant to be a leader. And throughout my whole life, I've been redefining what that means for me. And, you know, in sports, in college, growing up and playing, I was, like, the unspoken leader. I didn't want to be the leader by title. And so now that that's in my conscious awareness now, I haven't thought about that in quite some time. With what Giselle said, you know, it's like, what does it really mean to me now? And I, uh, channeled a message about a year, maybe a year and a half ago, talking about an aspect of a leader. And this visual's coming to mind right now. It's, like, where you're willing to stand on a frequency all by yourself and hold your hand out, inviting people into that frequency with you. And, like, you're okay being on the frequency by yourself. And I think that's part of, like, the intrepidation in. In some ways, for me, you know.
03:03 | Lauri | I'm probably gonna, uh, gonna answer all of these questions last if. Because obviously, when the question came to me, something popped into my head. Obviously not ob um, sometimes I get a question, I'm like, ooh, that's powerful. And then when it's my turn, I go, oh. I didn't stop to think about the answer when it popped into my head. I remembered my own reluctance to being a leader throughout my life. Like captain and point guard of teams. Um, and also very quickly came flooding in, the outdated leaders. Even part of me is like, I'm not even sure I would call them leaders. There's all kinds of language out there about calling them managers instead. Um, those things that a lot of us true leaders didn't want to be. Uh, the man in the three piece suit, the person just ordering people around. And it feels like there's a lot of healing that people like the three of us are here to do in reclaiming the word. I'm going to shut up. Give them time to respond and then ask the next question.
04:25 | Giselle | I've got this awareness as you're talking. Um, I didn't always know where I was leading myself too, but my hell, fuck, no, I'm not doing that was probably a very strong, um, you know, like, guidance thing along the way. And the other thing that's in mind is right from a little girl, I don't ask me where this came from. I had this sense of being a little old lady standing at the crossroads and pointing the way. That's it. Like, there's no, there's no great value in people doing something because they're told it has to be chosen. And I've raised my kids that way as well. Like, figure out what you want, like what you really want and then do it. And so, so much of my leadership has come just like I have five children. Of course you are leaders in that regard. And so it's just naturally, um, been forged in me over time coupled with. And I'm not going to do like, don't tell me what to do. I think I was like knee high and looking up at people saying, don't tell me what to do. And things that I was absolutely unwilling to do led me towards things that I've felt more in line with. And I guess that's my leadership. Yeah, authentic. And it's like, yes, no, sacral.
05:48 | Lauri | Yeah, yeah. And that reminds me of the, the journey from the good girl or skipping it like you were like, hell, fuck no from the very beginning to the rule breaker, no to what you said. And then a very organic in the way it sounded to us right now. A very organic, the fuck knows led you to the. Well then what is it?
06:13 | Giselle | Mhm. And you know, also informed by long stretches of agonizing compromise within the not knowing of what it was I was moving towards. But always it would emerge and the line would pull through to oh yes, this without. Usually without any validation from other people. So I learned to, you know, go the other direction without, without social approval from a very young age.
06:41 | Lauri | Yeah. And um, the. Without validation from others. Jenny, brought back the image of you standing in a frequency by yourself. That. That may be for a lot of us, how it starts. We see the fuck no. We realize the hell yes. And at first we're the only one who sees it. So we're standing in that vibration by ourselves and holding it and reaching out a hand for others to join us. And eventually they do.
07:11 | Jeni | M. You know, this is, it's an interesting conversation we're having because bringing in the terminology you brought in, Lori, I've definitely spent more of my life as the good girl. And as I'm stepping more and more into leadership, the way I define it for me, it totally comes back to this, this vision of standing in the frequency because it's like that's the thing I've been afraid to do my whole life. Stand in the frequency all by myself and uh, you know, want people to come along because I always just wanted to be accepted. And if I look back at all these different moments of my life, I've had moment after moment where I've always been different.
07:50 | Giselle | Mhm.
07:50 | Jeni | But I've always wanted to be like everyone else. And you know, I had a. An experience this weekend where I got in a conversation and well, a couple conversations and just noticing this is one example of leadership. I don't think this is the only. But this is how it showed up for me recently is I live my life so much in the nuance and it's harder for me to communicate with those who really need really like linear, logical, now type of explanations of things that I find to be really nuanced, you know. And I had a uh, ah. Communication with somebody this weekend and they were just so frustrated and I could feel myself wanting to like crumble into their world. And I was trying to find words that worked and no matter what I said, it almost like made them more angry every time I was trying to meet them where they were. So I thought, I think that's a beautiful example of, you know, leadership. Right. Like okay, you know what? I can't meet you. I can't like make this work for you. I'm going to stand over here and own what it is that I own and be uncomfortable AF or. I mean I'm kind of the situation. I have also had some other layers in there, but for sake of what we're talking about, you know, I showed up differently in that conversation that I have, despite acquiescing in many ways and kind of putting myself in an uncomfortable position because I was like, they were getting heated and I don't get heated really. And I was like, okay, well I guess I should get heated too. Meet you where you're at.
09:31 | Lauri | Oh, uh.
09:32 | Jeni | And then I was like, dang, that's not even me. I totally lost myself in that moment.
09:37 | Giselle | I just self abandoned, right?
09:39 | Jeni | Totally, totally.
09:41 | Giselle | And I don't like self abandoning so I'm not going to do it anymore. And I'll be over here if you want to come play if you can.
09:48 | Jeni | Handle the nuance just a little bit. Like I can't, I can't.
09:50 | Giselle | I don't know.
09:51 | Jeni | So yeah, when we're different. I think the point of that is when we're different. Mhm. Or when we see things differently and maybe that's also aligned with the work we're meant to do here in the world. You know, being able to be grounded in that M. Yeah. That means I had a really strong.
10:12 | Giselle | Experience of that nuance just last week. Um, I was deeply in focus, holding the question. Um, even as a little girl, my mother taught me that the way you control a population is to give them the illusion of choice within a narrow band of possibilities. And all my life I've struggled with this kind of have to. Because you know, there are things that you at least perceive that you have to do. And I know that one of my ways of compensating with that and like claiming as much sovereignty back as I could was to own the choice like I choose to rather than I have to. But I was in this container where I was really aware that that wasn't actually sovereignty, that was like dealing really well with enslavement.
11:01 | Lauri | It was like.
11:02 | Giselle | And so I was just like absolutely. In the subtlety and the nuances I was like, okay, so like how do I make the sovereign free choice within this seeming squish? And then I was reminded to just like literally interface my heart field with the unified field in. In absolute alignment with truth. And then I found myself moving naturally into motion without my mind being an intermediary. It's like that. Okay, that's my lesson. Do that.
11:39 | Lauri | I um, love that. I love that. You just reminded me like the description of aligning with the field and Then feeling yourself moving forward. When I was in a leadership program that someone else ran, there was a moment where I personally got triggered and spent about three quarters of the day swirling around in my own head blaming them. I was going to quit the program, but I was going to stay until the end of the weekend because they wouldn't give me my money back back. So it's. It's almost like bits of what both of you have spoken about. Like, I was not really me. I was not in myself when I was, like, spinning out and blaming and all of that, and then spun and spun and spun and spun and spun until eventually I found myself energetically come back into myself. And frequently I would feel this energetic force within me, guiding me forward at a lot of big decision points during that program. And also noticed recently that it was like, whenever there was chaos, I would find myself volunteering. Volunteering to be the one to go lead from the front. And that evoked that visceral feeling again. And, um, I'm gonna segue into the next question. It feels like we need leaders like us, sovereign leaders, creative leaders, or, spoiler alert, we're all doing a virtual retreat together with some others at the beginning of 2026. And I named it Untamed Leader. So what does the phrase untamed Leader spark in you? M.
13:53 | Jeni | I'd say for me right now, what's here for me, and this is where life has been leading me, is to hold spaces for people to discover what things mean to them and to be that guide and to be that, um, frequency holder. And so it's like when you say untamed Leader, I felt this. I felt this, like. Like, I don't know. I felt and saw this vision of, like, stepping back and having this space where it's like, how can I create a space where people can feel themselves and tap back into their own energy so they can define what UN Team leader means to them? I understand how important it is for us to sometimes give some boundaries and some different things for people to think about. And I know that that will be part of the conversation, but I also have this desire to be like, how do we invite people into what that means for them? By maybe guiding the conversation and perhaps not doing it the same. And this is. This is where I'm at right now. Not doing it the same. Where it's like, well, These are the 17 characteristics of an untamed leader.
15:00 | Lauri | Yeah, yeah, it. And that answer just reminded me of Giselle. Like, rather than saying, These are the 17 characteristics of an untamed leader. Or it's m. More of evoking who that person helping them, holding the space, asking questions, you know, being a container that helps them find themselves. Which reminds me of, like, the false. Here's the narrow thing. Make your choice versus Giselle. How you spoke about being with your children. You're helping them to grow into who they are rather than I'm Mom. Um, here are your choices. Doctor or lawyer.
15:51 | Giselle | Yes.
15:52 | Lauri | And to flashback to what we may have grown up with.
15:55 | Giselle | And here's enough rope to hang yourself with. Come back to me when you've got some reflections.
16:01 | Jeni | Yeah.
16:02 | Giselle | Yeah. Um, I want to pick on the word untamed and point to what being tamed is. And, you know, I'm going to give it through the lens of alchemy and the structure, um, the. The fixed reality that we all find ourselves in, where each one of us has been tamed, um, is the one that contains all of our imprints and conditioning, um, and what we believed we had to do and be in order to get our needs met. And not just in this lifetime, but carrying the epigenetics of our family line culture. Like you, you take it back as far as you want to go. But we're all in this perceptual set that is a fixed structure of reality and I think represents that taming. And there is no way in which you can try to strategize or move inside your taming that will lead to your. Your wildness or your truth or your freedom, because it doesn't belong there. It's actually in a separate reality structure that's very well known to your soul, but is not in your nervous system, and it's not in your subconscious mind. It's in this other perceptual set. But it doesn't have the, um, security and the safety of beliefs, which are nothing more than practiced thoughts, to uphold it. So it feels really wild and untamed. It's a fresh path through the jungle that you haven't beaten down yet. And so that leadership is the decision to, um, understand again in this kind of nuanced way. And Laurie, you know that I hold this space, the difference between your mind and your nervous system, pulling you back into your familiar perceptual set and following the intuitive knowing, the one that you can't prove to anyone else is real, that is in your body or however you experience intuition and being able to lock onto that and then following that call into the wild unknown, and then you just get such a taste for it that you can't help it, no matter how scary it gets. Uh, no matter how scary it is to your familiar perceptual set along the way. But the more you know the difference, the more you know there's that the. That crocodile doesn't have any teeth.
18:24 | Lauri | Yeah, the. The images coming into my mind from you, and I was in a neuroscience class years ago. Um, in the neuroscience class, they talked about, like, if you've always taken the path to the mailbox through the snow that goes to the left at first. It's harder to take the path to the mailbox in the snow that goes to the right, even if you're intuitively called there, because you have to, like, pack down the snow as you walk. And the jungle theme just brought it up a notch of, like, of course, it feels like there is no path already there because we're the one who's supposed to walk it, clear it, create it. Um, and of course, there are ways in which the old one seems easier because there is a path there, but it can also feel like, oh, this isn't my path. Why am I doing this again? I'm, um, finding myself curious, Giselle, in your past, when it wasn't yet, you know, once you get to like it, there's no going back. Once you build up some energetic escrow for doing it, there is no going back. Can you share a time when it was earlier in the journey for you.
19:58 | Giselle | And orient me more with the question?
20:04 | Lauri | Um, well, I'll share first and then see if it sparks anything for you.
20:08 | Giselle | You.
20:09 | Lauri | You know, because I'm working with you. Um, I'm. I'm newer at this than Giselle in some ways, and I have a whole lifetime of it in other ways, the, uh, feeling of, oh, I'm called to this untamed leader thing in January, and it started with, I don't know what it is. I don't really know who's involved. I have a very strong intuition that this is what it's time for me to do. And there's tons of synchronicities, and here's the next step, and here's the next step, and here's the next step at this point. And even so, I can feel the pull to, like, go back into the old, fixed reality, because this one doesn't feel as stable, doesn't feel as fully fixed. And at times, even last night, my mind goes off on all of the shoulds in the world, and this isn't going to work, and you should stop and yada, yada, yada. So I'm Curious if there was a time in your life when you went through that pull to go take the old path, to go back to the old fixed reality. What was it like and how did you choose your way out of it?
21:37 | Giselle | Um, m. All right, the story that's coming. Um, like I've. People have always said, wow, you're so brave. It's like, well, brave or stupid. Um, but like when my husband died, right. I tend to have life just push me so hard in different directions. There is no going back. So my instinct was to pack up our life as it was and go camping indefinitely. And my mind became obsessed with camping gear and everything that I had to do to kind of make that happen. And it was an enormous task. I was exhausted, absolutely exhausted. And my kids were between 15 months old and 12. Um, and granted I had a lot of help from friends at that time, but, you know, three months later everything was in a shipping container and I had a hand built trailer from friends who'd helped out. And we had the roof packed and a tent and my old. Our old cat, who was the other mother to all of our kids. And it was more painful to stay in the familiar place where the ship had just gone down than it was to move. And I think that's a theme for everyone I work with. Like, it's just, just more painful to do another loop of what didn't work. Didn't work because you can't leave the original taming than to strike out and do something new. And then because I was venturing into the unknown, I travel.
23:28 | Jeni | Two.
23:28 | Giselle | Two things together taught me how to read life differently. One was traveling into places I'd never been before. So suddenly every part of me that was asleep had to wake up and be alert and actually read what was going on and be perceptive. And the other was that my husband and I had such a close, like super close soul connection. Um, his energy signature was around me all the time and creating magic because I was actually really pissed off. It's like if, if you're dying in your 30s, that there's probably some deal that I have to be here to in my 90s, which means like, like a little five year old stomping my foot amused me. I want to be amused every single day. But if I went into any traditional forms of, you know, grieving, which I do have a PhD in, by the way, then the magic wasn't perceptible to me. So I had to learn how to do this frequency shift, which travel really helped because then I was in Curiosity and all the time. And then I could perceive, you know, little signs that would, would lead me all around the country for the next two and a half years. And so I guess that's my answer at every juncture where I've had to choose the new. I just haven't been able to choose the. I just, I'm not too much of a coward to just live in misery decade after decade. I just can't, can't do it. It's anathema to my soul. But there have been long periods of waiting, you know, before I really understood how this works. And I'm still. I don't think I will ever reach. Oh, I understand now. It's. It's a, It's a rabbit hole. I will continue to fall down. Um, but while I was waiting for life to make the first move so that I could feel safe, I just got really good at whiting. I have a PhD in grief and a PhD in waiting. And now I'm discovering the keys to life. Mhm.
25:26 | Lauri | Awesome. Jenny, any thoughts?
25:34 | Jeni | What Giselle shared reminds me of a conversation I recently had on a flight with a man who shared that in life we don't get to choose the content, we get to choose the context of how we respond to the content of our life. And with everything you shared, Giselle, you know, in the journey and all the different ways, even you just saying, you know, I'm um, I may not be saying exactly, but like basically I'm a bit of a coward for not wanting to repeat those things again. To me, that's a version of choosing the context of how you're responding to that. Because for some, right. Those who may have mentioned to you, oh you're so brave, they find that step to be the really hard step despite repeating things or being in misery or having that. Because what is, what is the saying? It's like, you know, the familiarity of. I forget the way it's said, but it's like you'd rather be with the person or the thing that's hurting you because it's familiar than go to something that's unknown. That's. Mhm. A whole like what you said is like the opposite of that.
26:50 | Giselle | Uh, yeah, I mean, maybe that's a quality of a leader. Like I'd rather puke than do that again.
26:57 | Lauri | Yeah, I definitely feel like I have some of that like throughout my life. Um, where it's like, but why, why would we do that again? I uh, even got a job once as an executive assistant. Like the job was someone else's and my friend gave him my resume and he was like, oh, I'll go ahead. But like he was about to give it to someone else before I was even ever put on the interview list. And I said something like, well, you know, you have a situation happen and maybe there are some emergencies and last minute things. And then you look at it, you learn from it and you change things, which makes room for the next set of emergencies. Like you're all. Because you have to have room for the next thing. And I'm not saying it as eloquently as I probably did in the interview, um, but I saw his face when I said that and it's his. I knew I had the job. Like, my mind wouldn't let me know that I had the job, but I saw him kind of go, hm. And then years later he told me that there are three types of people that you could hire. One of them is like the old workhorse who's already had the job for a really long period of time. They're good at it. It's all they're ever going to do. Then there's, um, the ones that turn out to be a mistake because they're not actually good enough or something like that. And the third one are the leaders who are just passing through. Like they're on a journey and you are part of their journey. And when I answered that question about like, just notice it and you don't want to repeat the drama or the emergency or the breakdown or whatever it was that happened, so you pull the learning out of it and do it different the next time. When I answered the question that way, I stole the job away from the old workhorse that he was about to hire.
29:01 | Giselle | M. Beautiful.
29:05 | Jeni | Mhm.
29:08 | Giselle | From, um, Being honest. Right? That was just your honest answer.
29:13 | Lauri | Yeah, I wasn't trying to get the job. That there's like, you have this part of you who would not like to repeat the pain again where other people out there clearly would. So they're looking at you thinking you're courageous. Um, they'd rather stay with what they know. And uh, it's like I felt a force in me and just had to answer the question the way I saw it and got a job off of that, which is, you know, when we're aligning with synchronicities in our lives. I wasn't trying to get it. It was like my first interview and I got it and I went there.
29:58 | Giselle | Yeah. And you're pointing my mind towards authenticity, which, you know, runs the risk of being a little bit of a bumper sticker these days, but in the truth of the word authenticity, back in our origin story and the perceptual set that comes from our imprints and conditionings, a fixed reality that everybody wants to move. Some people want to stay within and other people wish to depart from. Um, it's always based, not truthfully, but perceptually from the little one's perspective. When we were imprinting on relationship with self, relationship with others, relationship with life, what we believe we have to do to get our needs met, some kind of lack. And that's just, that's just how the game is set for all of us. I don't know if there's a human alive who got all their needs met when they were little and didn't grow up with some perception of something is wrong that I must fix. Um, but within that you're always trying to strategize to, to get like it's always going to come from the perception that I need to do something or be something or behave a certain way in order to get the result that I need. So even if you come from like the purest heart, if you stay within that, you're always going to be manipulative and you're always going to have an agenda. Whereas when you just deliberately or accidentally flip into who you really are, whatever that is, and we find out along the way, there's just this authentic answer. Um, like you weren't saying that to get the job. It was just the truth of your perception at that time and it got you the job. So like um, there's no Everybody wants a 30 day money back guarantee. If I do this, then I'll get what I want. But you don't get that. You get more by just leaning in to life. Yeah, that's what traveling taught me. I just learned to trust life for the first time in my life.
31:57 | Lauri | Yeah. And in light of that, it, I'm sure that for a lot of the rest of that interview I was showing up as what I would call my very, very tamed professional teacher's pet self. Very sure because she was way more in charge back then. And then at a couple of moments and also probably because I'm a responder, it was like that moment and then I wish I could fully remember everything that happened after that moment. Probably put me. I uh, uh, went to my native, my soul state and then had a responding conversation with him. From that point forward, everything before that was me like how can I impress.
32:48 | Giselle | You to get the job.
32:52 | Lauri | Without knowing it? But I know I was doing it.
32:54 | Giselle | Yeah. Yeah. On automatic pilot. Yeah.
32:58 | Lauri | Yeah. Um, Jenny, how has your. What has your relationship to taming and untaming been so far in your life?
33:19 | Jeni | What's here for me is taming in the way that you were just talking about, like, showing up in a way to get something or showing up in a way to, um, have somebody like me or to be accepted or, um. What I've wanted more than anything my entire entrepreneurial career is for people to see my value in the way that I wanted them to see it, not in the ways that they were seeing it. It was. It was hard for me to accept all those ways. And as you're talking about this, I mean, I just feel like a big part is the untamed version of me now, I guess, just being in the. In the pocket, being in the space between the notes and. And allowing myself to. Express whatever's there. And if I'm finding it hard to fully put into words right now, because this is something that it's like, I've wanted for so long, and I'm finding it fully, like, hard to clearly articulate, and perhaps it is coming out clearer than I think it is. But, um, it's just this. Less. I'll say it this way. Less control, less strategizing, less thinking, less needing less getting less rules, less. I mean, just that's, uh, so much of. When I look back, I can see how I've lived so much of my entrepreneurial, especially life prior to these moments. And I think that for me, working with the Akashic Records and being a channel and channeling messages for other people's soul and their highest and best good taught me how to get out of the way and be present to what is. And that is beginning to show up in, like, I used to say, like, my channeling Jenny, like, my intuitive Jenny. And then, like, my human Jenny. My human Jenny would still control everything and, like, you know, wouldn't get fully out of the way. She wanted to know all the plans and steps and channeling Jenny's like, okay, I'm here. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do whatever's here, even if it means I gotta quack like a duck. This is the message that's needed. Needed.
35:44 | Lauri | Yeah.
35:44 | Jeni | And that's showing up more and more in my personal life. So I say that that's untamed.
35:49 | Lauri | Yeah.
35:51 | Jeni | Yeah.
35:51 | Lauri | And it's really interesting to hear you say it that way, that it landed on me in a new way that when we're not doing all of the strategizing. The, trying to get that Giselle was talking about being our, uh, tamed selves. We're not going to the snow in the familiar way. It can feel like a pocket. It can feel. And maybe we are in the space between the notes. And at various times when I had touched on this in the past.
36:38 | Giselle | Uh.
36:39 | Lauri | I would grow very uncomfortable with that very quickly. And then, as Giselle would say, I would put my hands back on the wheel of the older, fixed reality and start to drive my way out of the uncomfortable pocket space between the notes. Feeling that I was experiencing. Um, I also know chemically it can mean that, like, the adrenaline hit that we've been getting from repeatedly going back into that struggle, it's fading. So it's like there's less or different hormones rushing through our body. And people get addicted to adrenaline for a reason. And when I have stayed there, It's like it's still a pocket. And all of a sudden, knowing Giselle, it's probably that my nervous system settled. And then it starts to feel amazing that there's that much space between the notes.
37:51 | Giselle | Freedom junkie.
37:53 | Lauri | Freedom junkie. Instead of an adrenaline junkie.
37:59 | Giselle | I have a really cute story that illustrates what you're pointing to, Jenny. Um, my mum's from the States originally, so every few years I go back and visit family and California and Arizona. And when I was about 8, I think my auntie had this vicious little parrot called Chong. And I really wanted him to step onto my finger, but he'd always like, lunge for me and I'd pull back in fear and he'd go like it was. He loved lording it over me. And I really, like, I'd go to. But then the fear would make me pull back and so we kind of left it there. And then I went to my brother's place and, um, he was looking after the family sulphur crested cockatoo named Waylon, who was just such a sweet bird. And you just swing your finger up to him and he'd hop on and then you'd wait a moment and poop on the newspaper. And then he'd walk up your arm and just like snuggle you. And he loved it when you played with the cuticles on his crest feathers because he couldn't reach them. And so he'd come up and lovingly, you know, play with your crest feathers as well. And it danced to music. And we just developed such a beautiful, love based, easy relationship. And I just got so used to swinging my finger up to Waylon that when I went back to my aunties. I forgot to be afraid for a moment and I swung my finger up to Chong, and before I knew what he was doing, he stepped onto my finger. And then we both looked at each.
39:27 | Lauri | Other.
39:31 | Giselle | And it just, it flipped. Um, and so, yeah, you forget to be afraid. You forget to have an agenda. Um, you just do it. And then reality changes immediately. And I was also reminded, and these touch points are 12 years apart, both dragon years. So 2012, um, I was discovering more freedom than I'd ever known through traveling into the unknown and just letting life unfold. And there was a razor's edge there. Um, I just didn't give a fuck anymore. I just didn't cared about my children. And that was about it. Like, making sure we had the next meal and somewhere to camp and some little unfolding adventure, that was enough. And it came from exhaustion. I'm so able to cope and so able to push an agenda that I needed to be completely physically exhausted in order to surrender and let go of control. And we'd taken a lot of the rules off, but like, wow, even the ones that we still tried to keep to within that societal set of, this is what you do in order to get ahead. Because we, we wanted to buy land for our kids. So we did the professional, like the thing that you need to do to be financial. Financial enough to get a mortgage. So it didn't work. Um, and so it was just this total permission to give up on every rule that had ever been put onto us and just make it up fresh. And it came from exhaustion in 2012. But fast forward to last year, and I know I shared with you, Laurie, my great spiritual epiphany of 2024 was the phrase, so what? You go to do a thing and your nervous system goes like, no, danger, danger.
41:20 | Jeni | Don't do that.
41:20 | Giselle | And you go, eh, uh, so what? Like, just so what? Keep moving. So, yeah, two words. You're afraid. You do it and somebody won't like you. You do it and you'll fail. You'll do it and blah, blah, whatever. So what? And that came from a, uh, nourished and energized and resourced and back in life perspective. Just like, so what. Leaders can say so much.
41:48 | Jeni | Yeah, it's such a, it's such a neutralizing phase in, in a lot of cases. Right. Not when it's used as ammo, but, you know, I've, you know, like, facing different financial challenges in debt, and as I've started to like, release shame and tell people people are like, okay, and so what? Uh, and it's like, really, this isn't a big deal to you? What? It's been a big deal for me. Like, it's been so disarming. You know, like in those cases. Right. Not in a dismissive way, but it's.
42:20 | Lauri | It's such a.
42:21 | Jeni | Like, this takes the pack down.
42:23 | Giselle | It takes the power out of the fear. Yeah.
42:26 | Jeni | Again.
42:27 | Lauri | Yeah. And allows it to dissipate. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I knew this. I told the two of you this before we ever started, that we were going to come to the end and I was going to say I could talk to you two forever. And, uh, I'm going to go ahead and head us toward wrapping up. Um, any more burning things that you want to share with each other or with listeners before we sign off for today?
42:58 | Giselle | Yeah, just one thing. Um, again, from the perceptual set of needing to get, it's like I need to do something or get something or train in something or acquire something I don't have in order to be that version of myself that I sense, um, either leads me forward or leads others forward or both. And it's also not true. Like, every. My delight is in just sitting back and holding a space for people to realize everything that they need and everything that they need to know is already inside them. Um, so, like, everyone's good to go. There's just like a little half twist of inner geometry to access what is already there.
43:42 | Lauri | Yeah, it feels like, like, you know, the. There's a very eloquent saying about a bird, whatever, that I can't think of right now that is like, it's not about the bird flogging itself and shaming itself. It's about the bird accepting. I'm a bird, I fly. Um, I don't need to walk around like a land walking puppy dog to try to get someone to give me something. I'm a bird, I fly.
44:20 | Giselle | And I can almost feel it going. Oh, man. Wind under my feathers. Feels amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:32 | Lauri | Awesome. Thank you both so much. And listeners, if you loved this episode, if you liked it, if you were touched or had an aha or anything like that, or you just have an intuitive urge that you can't even explain, please share it with a friend. Like it, rate it, review it, follow it, all of those things. And, um, I will see you back here next time. And I will be with Jenny and Giselle in January at the Undefined Untamed Leader Retreat, which is an UN summit.
45:18 | Giselle | We'll play.
45:18 | Lauri | It is. We will be playing we will be untaming. We will be coming back home to ourselves and honoring. Honoring, um, Winter, for those of us that are here in the Northern Hemisphere. And really, it's about what we've been talking about today, where we get rid of all of the other noise and come back to who are you? What is true for you? What's your higher vibration. And helping you to make the volatile world your new higher dream. Fixed world. See you there.