Permission to Be Messy: Punk Wisdom for Leaders

What if real leadership isn’t about being impressive… but being responsive?

In this second Untamed Leader Conversation, Lauri Smith welcomes back Bridget Baker (founder & CEO of Bridget Baker Branding) and Brian Perry (story and authentic communication coach, singer-songwriter) for an intimate, wide-ranging exploration of what it means to lead—and speak—without the cage.

Together, they unpack leadership as stewardship and service, what it means to follow the room (even when it’s “squishy”), and why the most transformational moments often begin in white space, not-knowing, and permission to be messy.

They also name the sneaky ways we get “tamed”—by shoulds, boxes, perfection, even success—and how untaming isn’t a leap straight into wildness… it’s a liminal threshold where you deconstruct, let go slowly, and learn to trust what’s essential.

If you’ve been trying to lead, speak, or build your work the “right” way—and something in you is done performing for the box—this one is for you.

At the end, Lauri shares details for the Untamed Leader Retreat (January 15–16, 2026).

Takeaways

1. Leadership is about lifting people up, not placing them beneath you.
2. Servant leadership is real- an act of stewardship - not ego performance.
3. Untamed leadership means you’re shaped by the moment.
 Not a fixed “guru shtick,” but a living responsiveness to what’s actually happening.
4. Follow the room: If half the raft is falling out, your job is to notice and adjust—not plow ahead.
5. Online leadership is harder when you can’t read the room—so you must build in space.
 Silence and processing time can create safety and depth when cameras are off.
6. You have to know what’s “tame” (for you)  before you can untame.
7. The first phase of untaming can feel like blankness. When you’re letting go of an old habit, sometimes you sit in white space until a truer choice emerges.
8. Overprepare so you can throw it away.
 The goal isn’t structure perfection—it’s truth, essence, and what serves now.
9. Permission is the doorway: permission to be messy, to not know, to evolve.

Soul Sucker Quiz

Take the Soul Sucker Quiz to learn which Soul Sucker screams the loudest in your mind so you can release them from being in charge and set your voice free!

https://voice-matters.com/soul-sucker-quiz/

The Speaker Alter Ego Quiz

Take the Speaker Alter Ego quiz to find out which protective mask hides your natural radiance so you can learn how to get present, connect deeply, and share your vision when it matters most!

https://voice-matters.com/speaker-alter-ego-quiz/

Transcript

Redefining Leadership

Lauri 0:32

Hello, hello, and welcome to the second Untamed Leader Conversation. I have Bridget and Brian back with me today, who were guests in season one of the Soulful Speaking podcast. Brian Perry helps people claim, live, and share more of their once-in-any lifetime story because living your story matters and it's more fun. Bridget is a multifaceted force guided by purpose and vision. And she's currently the founder and CEO of Bridget Baker Branding. Welcome, Bridget and Brian. Thank you, Lori. Thank you. Hey Bridget.

Bridget 1:13

That intro making me sound better than myself. I love it. Like, who is she? Oh, that's me.

Lauri 1:20

It's you. It's you. Let's um, I have a bun, I have some questions. And the first one is what does the word leader spark in you?

Bridget 1:41

What it sparks in me is people who bring up other people. So leaders not that are having followers, which we often think of people underneath them. That's a cult. You know, leader is someone who gets other people to see their own leaderness, leadershipness, right? To help bring them up and see themselves and their own greatness.

Lauri 2:08

Awesome.

Bridget 2:09

Brian.

Brian 2:10

I love that. Yeah, it's similar. Mine for me, the first thing that comes up is uh the first word they came up with stewardship and uh in service. You know, I was raised um in leadership philosophies of servant leadership specifically. And uh to me, that's ultimately leadership isn't something you attain, it's something that you step into by way of service. That's the point.

Lauri 2:35

Thank you for explaining that. I was gonna ask you to explain a little bit more what servant leadership actually is, because I feel much like the word authenticity, which is on my website and one of my favorite values. Servant leadership feels like it's getting used by people because it's sort of become popular in certain circles. So hearing the like simplified version of what it actually is is very helpful for me and hopefully people that are listening.

What “Untamed Leader” Really Means

Brian 3:05

And let me add that there that it's servant leadership is a defined thing. Um, and there last time checked, there was an institute even around this, yeah. The Green Leaf, um, Greenleaf Center, I want to say, um, for servant leadership. But but it it is it's just fundamentally the notion that leadership is an act of service. That's your job. Your job isn't to go in and be inspiring in a way that's like, look how amazing I am. Um your job is to go and, as Bridget was saying, lift people up, lift the organization up, be a steward of what's next. Serve. Yes.

Lauri 3:41

Now, what does the phrase untamed leader spark in you?

“Something Changed”: Listening to the Room

Brian 3:53

You know, it's funny because we obviously knew what we were coming in to talk about, but it's still like an interesting thing to ponder. Um, I think an untamed leader, I I will start on this one. I think that that that to me the first thing that comes up is is um a different word, which is unafraid. A leader that's that is the to me, and I'll come at it from the from my life as a performing artist. I was just talking to a friend earlier today about this. That I feel like when my job, when I get on stage as a singer-songwriter, that my job is to serve that audience. And I I often will say, My job is to light myself on fire if that's what serves this room in this moment, if that's if that's how I can be of best value. So I think an untamed leader is one that doesn't go in with a preconceived notion of what that service, what that leadership must entail in terms of the mechanisms, but goes in there with a willingness to and a curiosity um to be transformed, even as they seek to be transformative. Nice. So it's that willingness to be unrestrained.

Lauri 5:07

Bridget.

Brian 5:08

I like that.

Bridget 5:09

Yeah, I you know, I'm it's making me think somehow of like leadership training that I've done and how it's like, this is how you're supposed to show up in the room, this is how you're supposed to be consistent, so that you're this way all the time, no matter what's in the room. And I'm like, no, like untamed is like you are shaped by the room, you are shaped by every nuance that's in there, and your leadership meets the uniqueness of the moment rather than I am the guru with my shtick and I pop in no matter where I go.

Lauri 5:43

There's a reason we're all together.

Brian 5:45

Yeah, well, I was just gonna say it's it's it's fundamentally liberating too. Um Lori, it brings up a you and I both have CTI in common. And when I I remember one of the things that was um coaches training institute, which is not called that anymore. What's it called now? Coactive training institute. Coactive training institute. Um I remember my first weekend with that program, and there was a moment where the leader of that group that was facilitating, um we were in our circle and we were having a big discussion about something. I can't, I have no idea what the topic was, but I vividly remember our leader suddenly stopping and going, hmm, something changed. What's happening? And it was just this willingness, like it was clear to me, he felt his job wasn't just to get through the list of menu items, wasn't to fit some box. Not not that there's not things that need to be accomplished, but it was that's that's not that's secondary to what is happening here in this space, and how can I listen more deeply to that as it unfolds? Um, that that was a powerful, a powerful moment that changed how I how I lead and how I listen in those environments.

What It Means to Follow the Room (Not “Squishy,” Skilled)

Lauri 7:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And um that experience and many others, I started allowing plans for things to be much more simple. Like, what is the essence of of what we're here to do? And let the outlines be very sparse, and then meet the room from there and serve from there. And it was a journey of you know, myself being someone who used to try to control every single moment, and if we fell behind, I would be panicking, and then over time have realized when you follow where the room is, you always finish on time and get everything done. But the journeys look very, very different. Like with one class on one day, it can feel like every single thing you're doing takes exactly 45 minutes. And on other days, you end up having a three-hour detour, air quotes, about one thing. And then everything just goes bam, bam, bam, bam in like the last 10 to 15 minutes of the day. And if you and if I personally would fight it, it would always make it harder, and and it would feel like you know, particularly in an educational institution with grades, like some people didn't get it, and I would be begging them to come to office hours and following the flow of what is emerging with it's always perfect when we serve in that untamed, courageous way on that day.

Brian 8:58

How do you what does it mean though? What does it look like to follow the room? Like, what is that? I you were calling out squishy terms earlier. I think that this isn't maybe a squishy term. What do we mean?

Lauri 9:09

Um, so it means we have to be listening to the nonverbals in the room to back it way up for people, and for some of us that's just facial expressions. Like it's everywhere from facial expressions to like feeling the vibe, feeling the energy when your leader stopped and said something just shifted. What was it? Some of us can feel that. It's like the emotion, the energy, something shifts energetically in the room and we're aware of it. So we're paying attention to that and we're adjusting for it. Some people are less squishy right now. So it's watching the facial expressions. And if 60% of your room has a really confused look on their face, it's like you, if you're stewarding an experience, it's like you are the tour guide on the raft of the experience, and the back half of your raft is about to fall out of the boat. They don't know what's going on, they don't, you know, they're not with you. And if you don't listen and just keep going, you're not in flow with the room. You're just barreling ahead, and some of your students, participants, clients, whatever experience you're in as a leader, they're falling out of the back of the boat.

Brian 10:39

Yeah.

Performing Choreography vs Untamed Leadership

Lauri 10:39

Um, and some people see facial expressions and also can notice body language. So they're noticing if a lot of the room looks guarded or open, or like their energy is their physicality, it is like low, slouched. So it's whatever we can perceive of that, it's responding to whatever of those three things we can sense. Yeah.

Bridget 11:12

This is this is so interesting what this is bringing up in me, because first of all, we're all performers or we've been performers, we still are in our own ways, even if we're not, I used to be a dancer and you know, performed in front of big audiences, and it was very choreographed. And so there was no, I could meet the moments in little ways, you know. I could like, oh, I'm gonna focus on that one over there, or we would hear like, oh, the reviewers in the fourth room, like give them a little extra something, you know, and let me make a lock in on them, right? And I think though that again was like it's very choreographed. You're not necessarily meeting the energy of the room. And so, versus the untamed leadership is it is it's getting shaped by everything that's going on. And it's making sure that person that's slumpy and slouched in the chair that you're reaching them, you know, or they're seeing like what's what's missing in this? Like there's it might be just because it's clear to these people that are championing me over here, the person with the scowl on their face, you're like, Yeah, what's that about? Let's let's go focus on that and ask them some questions or bring in some clarity or say, is anybody unclear on what I mean, or you know, something. Because I think leaders tend to just go, oh, let me go toward the ones that are like cheering me on and you know, seeming like they're with me. Um, which which also to me makes it tricky when you're leading a group online, for example, where we are encouraged, oh, it's introvert friendly, you can have your camera off, whatever. It's really tricky to figure out how to read the room when that's happening. So while yes, you want to make these spaces more accessible, there's also that like, I'm not getting body language, I'm not getting facial expressions, I'm not getting any feedback to have me know that I'm really leading this group.

Tamed vs Untamed: Naming the Box

Lauri 14:06

Yeah, yeah. And when that happens, if you're sensitive to the squishy stuff and you can feel the energy, my advice is go fully, lean fully into that. And if if there's somebody listening who's like, but I don't know what you're talking about, it's sort of like trust your gut, get really in your body, trust yourself, trust your gut, leave some space for people to process, and and you will be creating a more dynamic experience for them than if you just plow through with no moments of silence. Yes. Bridget, you've said a couple things that spark me and and why the word untamed at this point. I'll say, you know, in I've been in business for nearly 18 years. The whole time the word leadership has been in there. Sometimes it's been in, sometimes I've thrown it out. Um, because the word leader can evoke images of the people that are trying to control or dominate, or even the word influence. I heard myself saying recently, like, I've never really liked the word influence, and I was am a public speaking coach. Um, and people would ask me, how do I influence the room? I prefer the word invite to influence that cookie cutter, only one way to do it. And because people were seeing that when I said the word leader, I stopped using it for a long time. I swung all the way over into only doing speaking coaching and not really doing any leadership coaching, speaking coaching for leader. Now I'm swinging it back. And untamed leader and true leader to me is somebody who has a vision for the world or their world to be different, better in some way. Like, what is what is needed in my world, in this room, in the world. And then they're creatively moving from the present moment toward that. So, what we've been talking about in a room of instead of, you know, my head is in my outline and each section is supposed to take 10 minutes. Therefore, I will cut off the conversations and ignore people who are confused or curious. Um, looking one way, talking one way, gesturing one way. That to me is actually not even a leader anymore, if it ever was. Because you're not going anywhere that you're sensing is needed or that you feel is part of what you're here to serve when you're on this planet. So have the vision, navigate toward it. And then the third piece is being able to speak it in a way that invites or ignites people's own leadership, inviting them to join you on the journey side by side, or them following you, like somehow you're moving forward together. And untamed, you know, I called it courageous leader, which is it is like you said, it's it's courageous to let go of all the plans, all the programming. And untamed came like an intuitive boom, it came into my head, it's time for that now. Which of course means I am an untamed leader in a lot of areas of my life. And in my business, I have not always been untamed. And it was like choosing, I'm gonna do this untamed leader thing. And it's been very much of like, I'm hearing this in my head. Oh, now I'm hearing untamed leader retreat. Oh, now I'm seeing Brian's face. He's involved, and now I'm seeing Bridget's face, and I'm hearing the number seven. Maybe that means there's seven of us. And then I went off into like spreadsheet land and tried to plan who the seven were. And then I was like, Whoop, that's tamed. You're being tamed right now. You're like in the spreadsheet trying to do it the way you were taught you should come back out, and lo and behold, we have seven people co-leading an untamed leader retreat in January, and it came like one intuitive hit at a time, and then someone said we should have conversations about it, and here we are having the second untamed leader conversation. What is your relationship to tamed or to untaming?

Brian 19:14

You mean is generally speaking?

Lauri 19:17

Generally speaking.

Creative White Space + The Courage of Not Knowing

Bridget 19:21

Generally speaking. Well, I was thinking when you were said when you were talking about untamed, the the amount you kept using the word and what you were saying and driving home the point of untamed, I'm like, you have to know what's tame before you can be untamed, right? You have to like know what prison you're escaping or what uh ideology you're letting go of or what you're holding on to as right. And so even it's interesting to see then when you stepped into untamed, you're like, oh, nope, see, that's not that spreadsheet, that's tamed. So you you kind of define what tamed is. So also it's not the same for everyone, right? So for one person, they might be like, oh, that's tamed. The other person might be like, that's the loudest thing I've ever done. And you know, so it's unique to each person. But I think to me, tamed is anything that's like a box you've tried to squeeze yourself into, and it constantly felt like you didn't fit in there, no matter how hard you tried. Even if you perfected the box, even if you got like rewards and certificates for perfecting being in that box, you know you don't belong in there. And so then there's that sudden moment of like awareness of this is the box. I am ready to leave the box. And then once you leave, you're immediately like untethered, untamed, in the wild, like, oh gosh, I don't even know where I am. I don't even know what the ground underneath me is, but I know I'm not going back in that box.

Lauri 20:52

Mm-hmm. I love that. I love that. And I think that's why potentially another reason why the the name came as untamed leader. Because I paused for a second and was like, but doesn't that mean I'm I'm pointing toward the taming by using and the taming is very, very sneaky. The ways that shoulds are impacting leaders, visionaries, change makers, disruptors, it can be sneaky. So you just clarified that right now. The people myself and the people that I'm gonna work with, we need to look at the taming in order to know what's not taming. Which leads us back to me, my way of running a business, my way of leading.

Bridget 21:51

And I think the untamed might not even be, sorry, one more thing. The un once you notice the tamed, then you step out and you're untamed. You don't really, you're not really wild yet. You're sort of like, you know, you're you're having to still deconstruct all these layers, like you said. I'm doing it, I'm wild, and then the spreadsheet happened, and then you're like, wait a minute, you you don't quite have your your full wildness on yet when you're untamed, but you've got permission to go toward the wildness.

Overprepare, Then Throw It Away (Rick Rubin / Essence)

Lauri 22:18

Yeah, yeah. You just reminded me of a moment in my favorite theater class that I bring up all the time. The way he would get us to stop doing habits is he would say, You cannot do X when you do this scene. And what the first phase of something that was really new for me was that I would just be standing there on stage seeing white. Like I would see the like, you know, one of them at first was you're not allowed to argue with the other characters in the scene. And then it was you're not allowed to argue, and you're not allowed to say statements. Everything that comes out of your mouth must be a question, because we were working on powerlessness, and I just sat there. It was like this I see the old road, which would be like the tamed choice, and I'm not doing that. And it was like white and nothingness, which you know, at the time was really frustrating. It's creatively frustrating, and it's like there's a nothingness, it's creatively frustrating, and then it actually becomes like potent potential, and then eventually a creative choice emerges, and all of that stuff gets channeled into the creative choice, which is way more interesting than the habit or the tamed choice, but it doesn't mean it's easy, it can be very courageous to sit there doing a scene. I mean, yes, it was in an acting class, but it's like there are bodies staring at me, and there is an acting partner looking at me like, why aren't you saying anything right now? Because I'm not allowed to do the thing that I've done 10,000 times already, and I have to like have the other thing emerge. And then when I would get it and get momentum, then it would feel untamed because the new thing opened up so much that I would still be working on powerless characters or whatever the new thing was. But there would be a point where it was like, Woo, this is amazing, and he would let you be in that for a few weeks, and then he would be like, Okay, it's time to move on to the next thing that you are not already good at, and you would go through the whole process again.

Brian 25:59

What I love about that is um I think it can be I'm what's coming up for me, I'm thinking of maybe it's it's the copywriter in me. I'm going, I'm trying to overcome objections if I'm listening to this. Because it can sound like what we're talking about is that untamed leadership is you just show up willy-nilly. It's not that. As a matter of fact, I think it's it's a process of getting more focused and more clear about what is essential about whatever I am endeavoring to do um with this organization, with this group, with this moment. Um what is so it's like I I will often say that when I'm in a position to lead or speak or what have you, I overprepare so I can throw it all away. And and and what I mean is is what happens is I fully integrated that which is essential. And it frees me to not be hemmed in by um I'm thinking trying to think like a corporate person. I don't have that in me. But it but the the try to like uh like what's how many slides does it need to be? It needs to look this way, it needs to come, it needs to come out this way. Um, as a leader, I need to, you know, uh stand this way or talk this way or behave. It's then those things are secondary, third dairy, fourth dairy. They're just dairy or non-dairy. Um uh um you know that that that uh that they there but the because what you're doing is if it's not this, it doesn't matter. Let me put it a different way. Um, there's a book that um the producer Rick Rubin, um, who's I'm gonna just gonna blank on me now. All the basically, if you've listened to music in the last 30 years, you've heard Rick Rubin. Um he's influenced so many of the most significant artists of this era. Um, and he put this book out about uh the creative act, about living a creative life. And the reason I'm bringing him up in this moment is that his focus in the studio consistently, like I remember there's an interview he was doing with uh with Anderson Cooper on 60 Minutes about his process, and and he's got this sort of Buddha-like personality to him, and and Cooper seemed to be totally totally in, just with him, like yes, absolutely, sensei, let's do this thing. And and then they reach this point, and then Anderson Cooper's like, sorry, what but at which point do you go? Oh, that's the single, that's the hit. And and Rick Rubin, I feel like wanted to throw him out of the room. He said, Never. That's not the job. That's not what we do here. What we do is is we listen to what's this song want to be. I I I I want to tell the truth of this song. That's what I'm after, is the truth of this song. If if I'm as a leader, the goal is hey, there's dissonance in my team, and we need to find a way to come together. That is all that matters. What does that look like? Is it if I if I start talking about coming together and I see people doing like this, something's happening in them. We gotta put our differences aside. Something's happening. That I it sounds like I might need to go further into the dissonance. And I'm just I'm I'm looking for what is there, I'm looking for anything that's not the thing, and and that's what I want to address. That's where I become untamed, that's where I become willing to break things, you know. Um, and and it to your reductive question was, you know, what what's our relationship with tamed or untamed? I will say, and Bridget, you had an idea. Can you hold your idea? I saw it speaking of watching the room. I saw it happen there. The the uh the uh that that I'm gonna I won't wreck the ability to put this in different places, but for me, as soon as you said that, uh rage against the machine came to my mind, you know, and I was just like, you know, yeah, I won't do what you tell me. Like that's how my feeling is, and and where that becomes useful as a leader is if I am centered on that which is essential, then I can I won't do what you tell me to any rules that arise along the way. Um it it liberates the moment, yeah. So there you go. Those are thoughts.

Lauri 30:35

I'm just gonna interject one thing and then go to Bridget's facial awakening, whatever that was. I don't know poker face. No, I love it. Like when I none of us will I know. Actually, Brian has a good, he you have a D, you just anyway. That's a side tangent that I'm not gonna go down. Um, it brings me back to like, you know, I used fluffy words. The word vision includes all of that, it's not the goal is blah blah blah blah blah blah, it's a vision that has something essential in it, yeah. And when making decisions, it's like, well, if we're if I am leading, inviting whatever people toward this vision with something essential in it, what's the best step right now to get there? Yeah, and sometimes it's to go straight into the dissonance, and other times it's to go, no, we've spent too long in the dissonance. We're like where dissonance shifts to like now it's ice cream, now it's flat.

Brian 31:40

Yeah, it's yeah, yeah.

Lauri 31:41

We're gonna start talking about the vision again, we're gonna move beyond it. Bridget, what was your face?

Bridget 31:47

Okay, so it's tying in both what both of you have said. So the kind of Laura, your acting exercise of the, you know, getting in the seeing white, whatever, where you're like, okay, I'm not supposed to do that, I'm not supposed to do that, I'm not supposed to do that, and not really knowing what you're supposed to do. And Brian, you're saying, you know, everyone with the suddenly they're crossing their arms. Like, don't tell me not to do something because so I I hosted this workshop the other day, and there was 101 people in the workshop, which was a lot of people. So trying to read that room on Zoom was a lot. Right. And and so the way I was working through people through something was it was about letting go. It was about, you know, decluttering your brain so that you can get in this creative zone, so that you can know what the wild is, you can know where you want to go. And so, you know, it was designed in these four parts. And the the first part was around, you know, know what you're holding on to, know what you're again, know what that box is, know what you're holding on to. And the next part is don't let it go. Hold on to it a little bit longer. Because when you tell people to just let it go, it's like, I'm not ready yet. They're not actually quite, they don't feel safe in their nervous system, they don't know where they're going. So they're like in this weird liminal in-between space. And so, like, give them permission to like think it, bid it farewell fondly, like, you know, like you can do that, but hold on to it just a little bit longer. And so acknowledge when people are, you notice them doing the body language, holding on. It's like you've gone, you've given them too much too fast, right? And so, how do you gently go? Is there anything else coming up for you? Anything else you want to say, whatever that is. So we don't do that with ourselves either. We think we're just supposed to go suddenly onto the stage of 500 people and speak from going from nothing, right? And it's just too big of a gap, right? So, how do we give ourselves sort of these gentle ways to shed, dipping our toe into things, if you will, but really acknowledging what you've been holding on to because it's it's part of your identity, it's part of what people have known you as, it's part of what you've built your life around, but it you know it's no longer what you want. And so you have to hold on to it, I think, just a little bit longer, just a little bit, you know.

Lauri 34:04

Yeah, yeah. You remind me of a coaching challenge at some point when I was assisting one of the coaching classes, an instructor like the they would call it homework, I call it life work, you know, in between sessions, do this. And it was like that thing you're holding on to, instead of because what we tend to do, some of us, is I've got one foot in this thing that I'm holding on to, and I don't want to be there anymore. And I've got one foot over in the old world, but I'm not really doing either one of them fully. I'm shaming myself for not being in the new world. And they were like, for seven days, I want you to fully commit to that thing you are holding on to. And man, did that work because seven days later we had the next class. So we got to see that the person was like, Man, I did it. And by about day five, it was really hard to keep doing it. And now I'm glad it's day seven, and I'm really done, and I'm putting that thing down. So, what you know, some of us know intuitively, do we just need to take some time to thank the thing and we're really gonna let it go? Or do we need to like, no, I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it fully with full permission, permission slip to go either way. Either here's your permission slip to let it go, or here's your permission slip to do it without shaming yourself about doing it anymore.

Bridget 35:36

Yeah, yeah, because there's something Yeah, go ahead, Ryan. Well, there's something like, yeah, you step into that gap of the unknown and it's terrifying. And so you might not really be ready to step into that gap because that the gap is like, I think again, it's the same thing. Once you really, really know what you don't want, you get more clear about what you do want. So it's it's that moment when someone will send it, they'll they'll be wanting to leave their corporate job, and then they'll get some raise or they'll get we see it in the I feel like it's a movie trope, right? It's like then they'll get asked to be the vice president, and they're like, Do you know that I like want to start my own business and I wanted to do this thing for 10 years, but now I'm like, okay, the an invitation to go higher into the machine of what I hate, right? And oftentimes they choose it, they go, okay, well, like how can I turn this down? That would be stupid, all the things, right? And so the more they lean into the being the VP, they're like, Yes, I really get to now. No, I don't want this. Yeah, yeah.

Where We’re Called to Untame + Retreat Invitation (Jan 15–16, 2026)

Brian 36:38

You know, I think in in the context of leadership, what I love about what I feel like we're talking about in this moment is, and I see this in the in in my work in coaching, is that so often what people seem to be most hungry for is permission. Um, and I think that what's the most critical layer of permission, it's the permission to be messy. It's the permission. Well, let me put it like this there was this amazing moment I saw um Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama speak um with um Richard Gere. Um, of uh I guess of all people I was about to say, but I guess it's pretty well known that they are close for various reasons at this point. But um I I didn't know that at the time. This is back in like 2010 or something like that. And um the Dalai Lama and Richard Gere were having a conversation ostensibly about creativity, and they got to the QA portion of the program, and they were going. There was somebody stood up to ask a question in this really hot sort of gymnasium place at Emory University down here in Atlanta. And I don't remember the question, but it was some kind of like meaning of life question. It was like, you know, everybody walked in the room with some version of this question on their mind that that they could talk to one of the world's spiritual leaders, they would want to offer, you know, and they're asking this question, and it's like pin drop quiet, and the translator is translating it, and the Dalai Lama is sitting there cross-legged with his visor on and his sunglasses on, the way he does in these situations, and and and just nodding along. And and the guy finishes his question, the translator finishes uh asking it, and the Dalai Lama's listening to this like meaning of life question, and he stops and he's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I don't know, and and the audience just fell out, you know, laughing. I'm sure there were people that were disappointed. I'm sure for me, I felt liberated because it was okay not to know. And I think the value of untamed leadership is it creates that culture of it's okay to be messy, it's okay to iterate, it's okay to not know that the birthplace of knowing, the birthplace of the new thing we want lives in our willingness to not know. That's that's where it resides. And if we're not willing to show up to that not knowing, we're stuck. We're only gonna move in small bits and pieces, and we're never gonna come near what we're capable of.

Lauri 39:24

Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm remembering a moment where I, you know, told a student probably 15 years ago, well, in order to create, to be creative, there has to be a nothing. Yeah, so wise. Like I watched the whole class write it down, and now I'm like, oh, that was one of those moments where like wisdom came through me, and then I go, and I'm not doing that in certain areas of my life, and it just landed again. Like, remember when you opened your mouth and you said that, and the students were all so moved and inspired? Yeah, take your own wisdom, take your own advice.

Bridget 40:09

Which yeah, space, space, space, yeah.

Lauri 40:15

The my final question that I knew I might ask is where in your life are you called to untame more?

Brian 40:32

I'm gonna let you go first, Bridget. I'm I'm gonna punt and let you go first.

Bridget 40:37

You know, I will I will immediately, because the work I do in branded website design, um seeing a lot of AI and my clients wanting to use a lot of AI, like they'll hand me photos that are AI. They'll, you know, it's very because again, they don't want themselves to look messy. They, it's like, oh, you don't have to look messy. You can immediately look clean through AI, you know? And what is starting to happen is this just like trying to look the same, trying to look less and less permission to be themselves. So then for me, it is more of that. How can I show more of myself? How can I show that I'm willing to be messy and show up on video because I wasn't showing up that way either. I was going, oh, it's not perfect. I don't have the perfect photo shoot yet. I don't have the perfect this, that strategy, camera, whatever it is. And it and that gives other people permission to show up that way as well. You know, so so that's to me is the untamed is just letting myself show up in whatever way feels right in the moment. That's it. Just show up.

Lauri 41:51

Which seems so easy when you say it. And yet it's courageous. It might be ease filled, it is courageous to just show up. What about you line? It's terrifying.

Brian 42:11

Until it isn't, right? I mean, that's there's an you know, very often when you do it, it's not as scary as you think it's gonna be.

Lauri 42:18

Right. Um yes, that's been a theme that's been coming in my world. You know, I'm paying paying attention to synchronicities. The number of people that have pointed out recently that the anticipation of a thing is often worse than the thing itself.

Brian 42:36

Yeah, yeah.

Lauri 42:38

I am I'm called to untame in my business. And I was working with a coach where I mentioned untamed leader, and that I thought maybe I had niched down too much because the world says you gotta niche down. You need to only have one thing, or you know, maybe you're allowed to have a few, but they must be a logical progression from one thing to the next. And I was like, all of a sudden, untamed leader is coming back, and I feel like everything is like it's we can go back to blank slate potentially, in terms of like, what am I doing and how do I communicate it? And I said something about the untamed leader retreat, and maybe I'm gonna start an untamed leader collective. I don't even know what it is, it's another phrase that popped into my head. She listened, and then she said, It sounds like it's time for you to be an untamed entrepreneur. And I was like, Oh in that way, like when the coach just like they're listening, particularly me, because I'm a I'm a verbal processor, in case those of you listening haven't figured that out by now. I'm talking and sounds like it's time for you to unleash your untamed entrepreneur. And I was like, oh yep, that's exact nail, head, you. Thank you.

Brian 44:08

Yeah, what will be different when you do? He said, asking a very coachy question. But what would be different when you did?

Lauri 44:16

Everything. And I believe we're all unique and we all have our own ways. And there are some people that like the boxes were built from and for. There are also people where the boxes weren't built for them, and yet, like Bridget mentioned earlier, like maybe they executed the box perfectly and they had success while they were executing the box perfectly. I am not one of those people. If you know human design, I'm a manifesting generator. Like our cycles are more about the rhythm of our own flow, rhythms of nature, not I'm gonna work exactly 40 hours every single day. It's like when you got fire, you follow it. And then when you're there's almost no in-between, the like I'm in the creative flow or I'm back in the space. Um, so everything is shifting. How I let myself have that, how I'm gonna package things. Um, and according to my coach, she's like, that's when like the wild income is going to follow. Because when you are energized truly for a thing, people are drawn to it, and when it's dead for you, people are not interested. That's been true, and I've been like, oh, I did a thing and a bunch of people came, so I should stick with that thing forever. And I mean, you can hear the like the business advice that's more typical out there is do a thing, be known for that thing, and for some people that works. They've got a signature program, they've been doing it for 10 years. Tony Robbins with the walk on coals, whatever retreat. He still has that retreat, and people are still going. That works for him. It's not gonna work for me, so everything will be different.

Brian 46:36

That's powerful. Yeah, you know, I I think um, thank you both. Those are great answers. Um this for me is an uh is a several hour long conversation in and of itself. Uh I you know, in a nutshell, I I feel a need to untame in virtually all places in my life. Um, I I noticed something I've noticed in myself in recent years. Um, I've been in beginning to understand and embrace, well, we didn't even have the term not long ago, at least not on the East Coast. I've learned y'all out west have different terms, but but uh, but uh you know I'm I've been learning uh more about my own neurodivergence and um and I have I just carry a lot of limited, limiting beliefs about my um ability to grown up well. Um I don't have I don't feel at all doubtful about my ability to serve. No doubt. I have no doubt about my ability to love. I have no doubt about my ability to show up to creativity, and I I absolutely endeavor every day to um keep that marriage alive um between between the art and me. Um I I I wrestle with feelings of shame around um my ability to convert on some of the more pragmatic aspects, which is now an unlearning, the more I learn about how my own brain works, um, that that I've been feeling ashamed for things that aren't mine to be carrying, that are just um I live in a world that doesn't isn't built for people like me. I'm six foot six, so it feels like in every conceivable way, not built for me. Um, you know, um, but I think I I one of the words I wrote down if we've been talking here is punk. Um, and it's I I found myself in over the last decade or so reading more and more punk memoirs and and gravitating toward um I like music, I like things that break things um because it keeps me from being too staid um and serious. And I think that um I have found it particularly this year, that I have found it very complicated to show up to the service and the work that I believe in showing up to um without adding to noise and chaos. Um and in it's it's a I have been under the impression that my job in that was to get quiet, and I think it was, and get still, and I think it was. But I think how that played out in me was something in me went, oh, he's saying quiet, he's saying still. He means restrained, restrained. We want to just lock it down, everybody, you know, and that's not what I meant. I meant let's get quiet so we can hear what's mine to do. And somewhere in there, I got too tight and too restrained and too removed. Um, and I feel, and I'll stop here. I feel I feel about like this. I middle age in particular has come on for me. I'm in my early 50s, which feels like I'm in my early hundreds. Like it just feels like suddenly overnight I went from having loads of runway in front of me to I'm just about dead. And I know that's not true, Lord willing, you know, but but I but it's but what it feels like at this point is it's like I am some kind of a high school student in a chemistry class, and I've just gotten the chemistry, the reaction to start, but I don't have any outlet for it. So the pressure's just building up because I'm not, I'm I'm too tamed and I need to give it some way out. Um, so I I feel just a need to, in general, be more liberated with my art, with my business, with my life, and stop living in apology. Yeah.

Lauri 51:12

Mic drop.

Bridget 51:15

I was like, more punk rock.

Lauri 51:18

Punk rock.

Bridget 51:19

She says as her hair is the most punk it's ever been.

Lauri 51:22

Yes, it is. If uh thank you both so much for being here and for joining the untamed leader retreat. And if you're listening to this and something in this episode struck a chord in you, yes, music pun, join us for the untamed leader retreat. It's January 15th and 16th, 2026. You can find it on my website, which is voice-matters.com, and then click on events and it'll be there. And if you're thinking of someone you know as you're listening to us talk, please also share this episode and share about the retreat with them. And I will see you back here next time.

Brian 52:11

Thanks, Laurie. Thanks, Bridget.

Bridget 52:13

Thank you.