Leadership As A Choice

What if the greatest leadership credential isn't a title or a degree — it's the moment you realized you had no idea what you were doing?

Charlie Sheppard — founder of the Human Presence Institute and president of Sheppard Partners — spent four decades helping executives and teams develop presence, influence, and real communication. But it started somewhere much humbler: a management role he wasn't ready for and a feeling he describes simply as "woefully unprepared."

In this bonus episode, Charlie shares the discovery path that moment set him on — from modeling great leaders through NLP, to building the Drama Triangle into a leadership tool, to why presence (not information) is the differentiator that AI can't replace. Plus: bungee jumping as an untaming practice, sourdough bread as a leadership parable, and the most honest pivot pivot answer in Untamed Leader history.

Key Takeaways

1. Feeling like a fraud early in your career can be the beginning of a true learning path. 
2. The Drama Triangle (adversary, rescuer, victim) shows up even in the simplest moments.
3. Leadership is choosing your energy state, not just your words.
4. Vision is an antidote to drama.
5. One form of untaming is practicing the edge until the edge becomes comfortable — then finding a new edge.
6. Presence — not information — is the coin of the realm now. AI can outperform any human on information retrieval. It cannot replace the energetic that announces you before you walk in the room.
7. We're often so focused on how far we haven't come that we miss how far we have. Leaders need people around them who will help them notice the mile-markers on the journey.

Connect with Charlie
https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliesheppard/
https://www.sheppardpartners.com/

Soul Sucker Quiz

Take the Soul Sucker Quiz to learn which Soul Sucker screams the loudest in your mind so you can release them from being in charge and set your voice free!

https://voice-matters.com/soul-sucker-quiz/

Transcript

Welcome + Charlie's introduction

Lauri 0:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Untamed Leader Podcast. My guest today is Charlie Shepherd. Charlie is the founder of the Human Presence Institute and president of Shepherd Partners. Over the past four decades, he's partnered with more than 50 organizations helping executives and teams develop the presence, influence, and communication that drive genuine change. There's more, and we'll let the rest of his story unfold as he shares his journey today. Welcome, Charlie.

Charlie 0:33

Thank you, Lori. It's fun to be here.

Lauri 0:39

I like to dive right in. And my first question for you is where did your leadership journey first begin?

Charlie 0:49

I

Where leadership began: Boy Scouts to "woefully unprepared"

Charlie 0:50

think if if I go to the actual first journey, well, I I can go back even further. A lot of what I was trained in leadership actually happened in the Boy Scouts, right? Being a patrol leader, a senior patrol leader, going through the whole Eagle Scout, you had an opportunity to make choices, whether it was a first aid event or a competition about tying knots. And so a lot of leadership showed up there. Even with that as a background as a kid, um, I was put into a management role very early. I was working at Burroughs Corporation and they moved me into an advanced trek as a manager, and I was woefully unprepared, right? There is this, and and when I moved from Burroughs Corporation to Wang Laboratories, I had even more people reporting to me. And I actually felt kind of like a fraud almost. And that sent me down a particular discovery path of exploring different disciplines and part of which I was able to meet John Grinder with Neurolinguistic Programming, and I was one of those business people that went into that environment. And so the whole idea of the technology that they created about modeling what other people were doing, I went, oh, I want to go model leaders. And then that became a career, and then I became a professor of leadership. And so the idea of not having what I would call innate characteristics of a leader, even though I got some great training in scouting and other things, I think there was some genuine insecurities and fraud inside of myself that had me go down the path of actually learning what it takes. And in putting that into myself, I went, oh gosh, this would be really valuable for other individuals.

The fraud feeling that started everything

Lauri 2:49

And when you were woefully unprepared, how did you know? How would someone who's listening and might actually be facing the same situation, how would they know from your experience?

Charlie 3:04

I think it comes from whether whether it was a level of insecurity. Like I was confident in what I knew about computer science at the time. I was confident in the ability to um do the job. I wasn't confident in helping other people do the job. And so, and I I don't think I had the language. So part of it was even if I was leading others, my attention was still on myself. I didn't know how to grow or develop other individuals and the wide variety of capabilities. So I think there was a bit of insecurity around being called a manager, having not really had the training and the discipline to do that well. So, but you're getting to a different the question you're asking though is how did I know? And I don't think it was just in security. I think it was in the conversations when I was leading others, I didn't feel that innate ability to one, either be inspirational, two, create a compelling vision. It was more like I was mental versus uh operating from a place of kind of automatic knowing. And so I I felt the gap, right? Sort of feeling where you just go, I don't measure up. And I'd seen leaders that were exceptional at it.

Lauri 4:37

Yeah. And I'm hearing there's a difference between knowing how to do a thing yourself, which you trusted your expertise at, and helping others to do it. Kind of the if you you know how to fish, teach a man how to fish, and that's a completely different thing.

Charlie 4:56

Different characteristics.

Lauri 4:57

Yeah.

NLP, model-making, and becoming an educator

Charlie 4:58

And the interesting thing is, is in my study of neurolinguistic programming, because they were so good at building models, whether it was they built models of Milton Erickson, uh Virginia Satyr, they built models of Fritz Pearls and Gastell Psychology. I went, oh, this is a model making tool. I'm gonna go model what it is to be a great negotiator. I'm gonna go model what it is to be a great leader. And in doing that, it actually made me a great educator.

Lauri 5:24

And do you have a story of your own that kind of connects part of the model? Like, can you tell the listeners a story?

The Drama Triangle: a story from the ski slope

Charlie 5:33

So many times just because you create the model doesn't mean that you're not ever in the drama triangle, man. I I I just did one the other day. Uh and and it's the the the curriculum is called leadership as a choice. And and so I I took uh uh my son and stepson, they're home from college up skiing. They kind of ganged up with you know both their mom and dad and got them to take them to skiing, right? So it was very well executed by both of these two boys. So I'm an avid snow skier, love it, slightly addicted to it. I was on I raced in college, I was on the National Ski Patrol. So, and by the way, this is just a recent story. So I get up early in the morning, it it had snowed. There was beautiful snow outside. It was a sunny day, this was perfect. We're at a trailside condo. I'm up, but I'm also there because I want to spend time with these two boys and I want to be with them, and they are moving so they're teenager, even though they're not. They're but they're moving slow. So I ski on out, I'm in the trail, I know that it's fresh powder, and I know that I want to ski with them, and I stay stuck and frustrated, right? So I went into not choosing. I'm mad at them, I'm mad at myself because I'm not making I want to ski with them, but I want to go off and go skiing in the powder, and I get frozen in inaction, and then I just started to get frustrated. So all of this is because I abdicated choosing. And I clearly said, I want to ski with the boys, it doesn't matter what the conditions are, I'm gonna do that, or I'm gonna go enjoy the conditions and I'll catch up with the boys later, right? What I did was neither, and then doing neither, I put myself into an energy state that's classic drama triangle. And so whether it's been in my past of having a conversation with somebody that for me, one of my areas of um wanting to support the climate change movement, I had a conversation with somebody who was a climate change denier, and I didn't have a compelling vision for what we could do around climate, why it matters, and everything else. So, and it felt too big for me to even influence, right? So I'm down in the victim role because I don't have a vision for what I want to do around climate change. And by the way, if you don't have a compelling vision about where you want to take something, you're likely to just all I did is create more drama with this individual. I didn't have a compelling argument, I didn't have anything, I got frustrated. So, again, those types of patterns, my definition of drama, are you putting energy into the environment or taking energy out of the environment? And so, in both cases, whether it was not something as simple as not skiing uh, you know, with these two boys, or something as complex as can we actually get 8 billion people to care more about climate. In either case, not having a compelling vision about where you want to go gives you a uh more of a sense of getting trapped inside of the drama triangle patterns, which are again our adversary or rescue or victim. And so is your energy low, you're likely in the drama triangle.

Vision as the antidote to drama

Lauri 9:32

Yeah, it's interesting. Um one of the things that it feels like we may have in common is that one of the elements of being a leader is that you have a vision. And I would add for something to be different in your world or the world, and uh if we don't have that vision, uh uh being trapped in the drama is almost like the, you know, you cannot change things from the energy that created it.

Charlie 10:04

Correct.

Lauri 10:05

World says this is the box, no climate change. And we can be trapped in it, banging our head on on the wall, or we can develop a vision for what could be possible instead of what's here now? I know what mine are. What else? What is the rest of your definition of what a leader actually is?

Charlie 10:29

Yeah,

Leadership, energy, and the untamed leader question

Charlie 10:30

so first off, uh my best definition are are you putting positive energy into the environment? So that's just number one. Uh, are people inspired when you walk into the room? And so the the skill sets that that go into that are um you can create a compelling vision, we which we've already talked about. It's also about growing and developing yourself and others and really having it. So the function of leadership is to create more leaders. So you've got to be able to grow yourself, you've got to be able to grow others along those lines. But then there's a you don't get to stay a leader very long if you make poor choices. So it's shown over and over again that a group will make better decisions than an individual. It's just kind of a fact. And so doing that though is complex, right? If you it's very hard to make a high-quality decision with 40 people unless you're a catalyst and you can actually map out the ways of people operating together well efficiently. And and now it's gotten even more complex because so much of what we're having to do is to apply those tools inside of a virtual environment. So I don't care who you are right now, getting your virtual skills of facilitating to be a catalyst inside of a virtual environment is exponential.

Lauri 11:55

Yeah. One of the things that has to happen, I believe, as a leader is that we we keep growing. So you grow to a level, you integrate it, and then there's kind of the next growth or shedding of a skin. This is the untamed leader show. And I'm curious what the phrase untamed leader sparks in you.

Charlie 12:21

I don't know. Untamed, um uh potentially it's if it's untamed, it's it gets to a little bit more raw or um yeah, I don't really have a I don't have a strong mental map for untamed. So maybe I'd ask you if if that's your uh give me a little bit more of a definition and I'll I'll go down the the rabbit hole of what I think of along those lines. But nothing's nothing's coming up other than having it be more of an unedited version.

Lauri 12:54

Mm-hmm. That's definitely part of it. Uh it fell into my head intuitively. So I put a lot of stock in things like the Einstein quote, intuition is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. And we're raised in a society that has a lot of spoken and unspoken rules for how we're supposed to show up. And in my own life and business coaching others, I've come across, I wouldn't even use the word leader for a long time there. Because there's so much wounding around the leaders, big air quotes if you're listening, that a lot of people didn't want to be one of those dominating type of leaders. And then even when people go, hey, I'm feeling called to lead something, they might be subject to hidden shoulds. My my first coach ever just would call them the shoulds. You think there's a way that you should show up or that you have to. And in order to lead, we have to have a kind of permission to break out of those rules in order to create what comes next. And when I looked at a lot of the speaking and leadership programs that are kind of the big ones in our world that everyone knows of, they were created in different waves of the industrial revolution. They were teaching people how to say the same thing, gesture the same way, wear the same things, to do everything the same on factory floors. And our schools are creating people taking in information and just regurgitating it back rather than actually grappling with it and making things their own. So that's a there's a whole host of things that go into untamed, and part of it is freedom, letting go of all the rules.

Charlie 14:59

There's

Grinder's mantra: "If you can't, you must"

Charlie 15:00

a there's a quote that I I was introduced to early on, and I I don't know where I had the hubris, but I started my consulting company when I was 26. So part of that was examining what you could and couldn't do. And uh I I had a great line. So as you're saying this, Untamed comes from me from a place of John Grinder actually said, if there's something you can't do, then you must do it. Right? So that it kind of was a useful mantra for me for a while of breaking apart whatever my limitations were along those lines.

Lauri 15:38

Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Where have you caught yourself noticing a should or a taming and letting it go throughout your life?

Bungee jumping, paragliding, and approaching the edge

Charlie 15:50

So uh I think there's an examination of so many societal programmings that are in place that and and I I think that that adage of if you can't then you must, uh I would just sit there and and there was a period of time when I just unpacked all of it um uh around as I went, huh, is this my choice or is this a societal thing? Is this is this something that's from me or is this from my parents, right? My dad used to say he had a fear of heights and you get sweaty palms watching something on television where somebody was at heights, right? So I went, huh? I ended up having that same, you know, who knows when that got installed, but I would see something, and and so then I went, okay, is this me or is this somebody else? And then so I ended up bungee jumping for a while, right? So I could get to the edge, I could go, okay, I'm actually safe, I've got these cords, you know, what do I do? The first leap off, I had to overcome a lot of, you know, I had to overcome a lot of things. And the same thing with hand gliding and or paragliding. Um and so I think that there were parts of my life where I had to go, is this how I want to run and live my life, or do I want to do it in a different way? So yes, unpacking it, I think that was okay, I have a fear of heights, I'm gonna go actually overcome the fear of heights. And and so it doesn't matter what it is. I I I like approaching the edge of something that feels uncomfortable, and then I get it comfortable. I get a little bit bored with it after I get it comfortable. So I I'm infinitely curious, I think. And it'll just I'll go down anything, even sourdough bread. I almost gave it up. I I it was so funny. I was not mastering sourdough to bread, sourdough bread, uh, and I was almost giving it up. And my brother-in-law said, This is the best bread I've ever tasted. And so then I'm I'm off to the races again. And a little bit of feedback is um is a useful uh uh inspiration to kind of go, Oh, I'm gonna keep going down this a little bit more.

The sourdough bread principle

Lauri 18:17

Yeah, there's so much in that. I throughout the time you've been talking, the word choice, which you started with and it come back around, there's that that saying, growth begins at the end of your comfort zone. And I hear that in everything you're saying. And it's like you get curious, you get to the point where you have full choice. So you learn, you bungee jumped, you learned to speak in keynotes in front of thousands, and then had the full choice. This isn't my preferred place. I can do it. I don't choose to, and the choice not being one that was created by a conditioning like a fear of heights or a fear of speaking in front of thousands. Yeah, it's and then the sourdough bread. What I love about that story is sometimes when we are growing and transforming and changing, we're still focused on the what else could be. And we're seeing the I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. And then someone comes along and says, You're so busy looking at what you haven't done yet, you haven't noticed that the sourdough bread is actually good. You haven't noticed that the sourdough bread has actually improved because you're not noticing the whole picture, which is a gift of leaders to keep looking at what could be and keep going for it. And sometimes it makes us want to give up making the sourdough bread because we're not noticing how much it has already improved.

Charlie 19:54

It it it's it's fun. I, you know, I'm never worried about what I'm gonna be curious about next because there will be something.

Lauri 20:04

Yeah.

Mission-driven and doing multiple things at once

Lauri 20:05

One of the things that I love that you are modeling in untamed leadership is, you know, one of the shoulds that's out there is you should do one thing. What are you doing?

Charlie 20:16

I know.

Lauri 20:17

And I work with yeah, I I work with a lot of people who have multiple ideas, multiple passions. And all of your the ideas and passions and different things that you're doing that you're sharing today are mission-driven. There's something greater than you and your pocketbook, though you may have made millions of dollars, there's something greater than you or your pocketbook that is driving you to do them, to create them, to pass them on in service of calling other leaders forth in many cases, or solving a problem in the world. If people are leaning in and wanting to learn even more about you, this will be in the show notes. What's the best way for people to seek you out and go deeper with you?

Charlie 21:09

If you're interested in the Human Presence Institute, I would go to humanpresence.org. That's our nonprofit, and it's a way of conveying this information to a larger group of people. You know, my day job is the um ShepperPartners.com.

Lauri 21:28

Perfect.

Pivot Pivot

Lauri 21:29

And now it's time to slide into our Pivot pivot.

Charlie 21:33

Excellent.

Lauri 21:34

Charlie, what is your favorite word?

Charlie 21:40

Love. It has the multiple, it does everything that you want it to do in a single word.

Lauri 21:48

What is your least favorite word?

Charlie 21:55

This one's my least favorite word is diarrhea. I don't know what it is. It's just like That was you said, what's your least favorite word? It's just because anyway. Yeah. Sorry, listeners, but you know, if I'm doing the pivot pivot correctly, it was the first word that came up. You asked the question, you got the answer.

Lauri 22:12

I did. All right. What turns you on creatively, spiritually, and emotionally?

Charlie 22:21

It's it's all a function of connection. It's whether it's another human being, whether it's nature, whether it's uh the planet overall, it's having the direct sensory experience that's not abstract or mental of connection.

Lauri 22:41

What turns you off?

Charlie 22:45

I I think people's unconscious uh energy drains. There are people that you know, and they don't know how to do it, and I'm not hired. But if somebody is actually sucking energy out of the environment, then I've got to put up more defenses than I want.

Lauri 23:02

Mm-hmm. What is your favorite cuss word?

Charlie 23:06

So I I'm I'm working at not cussing because I have team members where that doesn't work for them. So what I'll usually, it's interesting because I I don't say it anymore, but I'll just say F, right? But the sound energy is the same, but I'm not saying the full word as an edit for myself.

Lauri 23:29

Nice. What sound or noise do you love?

Charlie 23:38

There's a place that I know that I've been camping at since I was five years old. And when I get there, and then when the afternoon blows the trees, the wind in the trees in the afternoon in this location has a sound that is um soothing for me. It's a place and a location, but the sound actually uh the sound brings me back to thousands of memories there.

Lauri 24:10

What sound or noise do you hate?

Charlie 24:14

I I don't use the word hate, but there is a sound energy that somebody can do that is that if I don't put up the defenses, I'll feel it in my body. And usually it's somebody from way down in the drama triangle.

Lauri 24:37

And Charlie, what do you hope people say about you on your 100th birthday?

Charlie 24:44

Hmm. Hello.

Lauri 24:50

Thank you so much. I will say hello and goodbye. Thank you so much for being a guest here today.

Charlie 24:57

Thank you, Lori.

Lauri 24:58

Yeah. And if you are listening, please do all the things. If you enjoyed this conversation, please review it, share it with a friend who might like it, and come back and listen to the next one.