The Mother Wound...

 In this first episode of Mending Moms, we talk candidly about the mother wound with the talented Emely Rumble, LCSW, author of Biblotherapy in the Bronx! 

 "...our mothers are our first mirrors, and how our mothers and our relationships to our mothers, and what they reflect back to us.
It's the first place where we begin to develop our self-perception. And what I want people who are listening to this podcast to know is that some of our mothers were broken mirrors. And what they reflected back to us that maybe we internalized as our self-perception was untrue. So by acknowledging that we can have an entry point to healing, you're not broken. You're not broken. And if your mother wasn't able to give you the things that you needed, it wasn't necessarily because she didn't love you..." -Emely Rumble, LCSW

Here are the books she shared:

• Halsey Street- By Naima Coster
• Break the Cycle- By Mariel Buque
• Discovering the Inner Mother- By Bethany Webster
• Children of Self-Absorbed Parents- By Nina W. Brown
• Adult Daughters of Narcissist Mothers- By Stephanie M. Kriesburg
• Will I Ever Be Good Enough- By Carol McBride
• Difficult Mothers, Adult Daughters- Karen C.L. Anderson
• Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents- By Dr. Lindsey C. Gibson

Be sure to grab your copy of Biblotherapy in The Bronx- Emely Rumble  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/217262696-bibliotherapy-in-the-bronx

Follow & Connect with Emely Rumble, LCSW on IG & TikTok  @literapy_nyc 

Enjoyed this episode? I would love to hear what resonated. Be sure to Like & Subscribe

Want to be a guest on Mending Moms Podcast to help in the healing ripple? Send an email: crystal.briscoe@vibrantbf.com 

Transcript

Crystal: 0:00

Welcome to Minding Moms. I am so excited for today. Such a special treat. My heart is literally glowing with excitement to have this amazing, beautiful guest. When I think of Beauty and Brains, Emily is what comes to mind. I'm just so honored that she is sharing space, her knowledge, her experiences on this particular platform. I will let her get into all the good stuff, but there's so much that she is doing. She is one of the coolest chicks. Seriously, she is a vibe on top of vibes and I'm just honored to be in her space. And Emily, welcome to Mending Mom's podcast. You are the first. Guest and you're gonna come back. I already know, I'm already speaking that she will be coming back and sharing her wealth of knowledge. So Emily, welcome, welcome, welcome. How are you doing today?

Emely: 0:49

I'm just so happy to be here with you and thank you so much just for being so dope in my life. And it's always a beautiful thing when people you think are dope, think you're dope. And so I've just so honored to share space today. We've been building online for quite some time, so I've been looking forward to this conversation. This is a very sensitive and important conversation and I feel like there's nobody else I'd rather have it with because you've also supported me so much in my mother ring journey and you know, my kids are very little. so you're like a vet to me. So I, you know, I'm always taking notes and I just, I'm really excited to get into this conversation.

Crystal: 1:32

My oldest is. 26. So I'm definitely a vet at this at this point. Gimme all my medal. I got the stars. I got the

Emely: 1:39

earned it. Flowers. Okay. Period.

Crystal: 1:43

I want you to share with us like why and who and what you do. Yeah.

Emely: 1:49

Well, my name's Emily Rumble and I'm a licensed clinical social worker. My journey has really led me here, you know, as a clinician, as somebody who specializes in the creative arts to heal as a mother, as a woman, as a friend, all the things, right? Like I grew up with my maternal grandmother. My mother was a teen mom. She had me at 15. And so my grandmother raised me, and then my grandmother suddenly passed when I was 14 and I was estranged from my mother for quite some time. I reconnected with my mother, ironically, while studying abroad in England. I was in my junior year of college studying abroad, having, you know, this wonderful, expansive experience. And my brothers, my biological brothers found me on MySpace and that's how we reconnected. You remember MySpace? And My mother was just like, oh my God. You know, Emily. And when I got back from England, I remember like driving to Connecticut to go meet her at a McDonald's and reconnecting with her and meeting my younger siblings. And it was just very emotional and she was so, I. Humbled and like surprised that I even wanted her in my life. And for me it was like a no brainer. Like, you're my mom. Like what? You know, like, of course nobody can replace my grandmother, but nobody could replace my mom. And so I think me having that longing to like just know her and be curious about where she was and how she was, um, kind of opened up a door to healing in our relationship, you know, and it, it hasn't been an easy journey. That was in what, 2000 and, uh, seven We're in 2024 Now. Fast forward, I'm married. I have two kids of my own. Me and my mother are continuing to heal our relationship. But I've found that in my own healing journey, I've counseled many clients through, accepting, understanding and healing mother wounds and. It's been a parallel process because as I've been doing that work, I've been healing my own. Um, and so, and it's interesting because I am coming out with my book next

Crystal: 4:01

Oh.

Emely: 4:01

bibliotherapy in The Bronx. It's all about how literature and poetry, um, can be integrated into therapy. How I've done it in my own practice, but also my personal story. And you know, the first person who taught me a love of reading was my mother. I remember we used to get those little pamphlets in the mail that were like, pick five romance books for 99 cents. You know, and I remember my mother being a young mom and she would be like a voracious reader, you know, when she wasn't crocheting. And so it's all connected and it's all like, I met just at this season in my life where like all the pieces of the puzzle are like coming together to form a big picture. And in my book, that was the hardest thing to write about because I didn't want to. Tell my mother's story. Like her story is her story. My story is my own, but I can't share mine without sharing hers. And so it was beautiful to see how welcoming she was to that. Like, no, Emily tell the whole

Crystal: 4:57

Oh, wow.

Emely: 4:57

but the truth. You know what I mean? Like, this is gonna help free people. And so my mother has really grown and evolved a lot. I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud of us. Um, and my daughter gets to benefit from the fruits of that healing. So it's been, it's been quite an

Crystal: 5:13

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. Such a, it's so beautiful. I loved how you said, you know, that's her story. And this is my story, but I can't tell my story without her because without her it would be no me. And so there's this intertwined, there's this enmeshment in a way of mother and daughters, right? We have our own lives, we're our own people, our own stories. But once we cross that threshold and bring in these humans, of our own, it, we become intertwined forever, like energetically., The mother wound is really what we're talking about, and there's just so much there. I think. The fact that you are so open to receive your mother, because like for you, you're like, it's a no brainer. You're my mom. Of course, let's do this. But some people of course are like, I don't know where you've been and I don't care. Right? And just shut that out and how it's a case by case scenario of what that looks like. But I would love to hear, how would you describe a mother wound, what does that mean to you when you hear mother wound?

Emely: 6:14

I get asked this a lot by clients and the way I like to describe the mother wound is think of it as. An emotional and psychological psychic wound. It's all of the unmet needs that we didn't get from our mother. It's all of the pain and trauma associated with what we didn't receive from our mothers, what our mothers couldn't give us. Sometimes it's the things that they did give us that are rooted in trauma, so criticism, abuse, neglect, right? All of these things can encompass a mother wound. All of these things sort of impact a child's sense of self. Our mother's being our first mirror. And so, you know, the way that a mother shapes a child's experience is so significant to a child's developing, like identity, self-esteem, our understanding of interpersonal relationships. And as a result of that wound, right, we develop. Defense mechanisms and coping mechanisms in order to survive our mothers. And so if you had a mother who was toxic or abusive, or simply who wasn't able to be a present, emotionally attuned, nourishing, nurturing figure, who taught you that you were loved and acceptable and hold just as you are, then that's gonna manifest in, in certain, struggles as you come of age and and become an adult.

Crystal: 7:40

could it not? That's in,

Emely: 7:42

it?

Crystal: 7:43

that's an amazing explanation. Would you consider that being part of a generational trauma as well? Do you kind of interlink mother wound with inter like, uh, generational traumas?

Emely: 7:54

I absolutely do, and I do a lot of like, uh, family genogram work to help map the trauma because our mothers can't give us what they didn't get right. And our mother, like, it's two twofold. Our mothers can't give us what they didn't get, and our mothers can only give us what they got. And so there's no way to look at a mother wound without the lens of intergenerational trauma and also like cultural, societal expectations, right? Like all of these things play a role.

Crystal: 8:23

layer on top of, layer on top of layer, on top of layer. I mean, it's healing and encompassing. Like, it's like, oh, it's never just this. Everything is interconnected. It's energy. So it transcends space time. You know, it's like we have so many levels and so many layers. To you, you said it was a no brainer. You wanted to connect with your mom and then you started, you have the language and the certificates and degrees and diplomas that has given you further insight and language on interpersonal skills with their mother. But do you feel like.

Emely: 8:58

do you feel

Crystal: 8:58

It. Do you feel like it's helped you being able, like we are continually navigating right, and learning and growing, but do you feel like that kind of helped with it? Or maybe in some cases hindered or how does that kind of coincide with your, you know, actual

Emely: 9:14

Yeah. That's

Crystal: 9:15

and learnings of

Emely: 9:16

That's a great question. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. And that's why I don't always share my experience or self disclose to clients.'cause I never want a client to feel like, well dang, if you healed your relationship with your mother, I, I should be able to heal mine. And it's like, no, it's like you said, it's a case by case based. The thing for me was that I already had a bond with my mother and then that bond was cut short. She had me at 15, so she wasn't even a fully developed woman at the time that, you know, so like there was a longing for me to also like, and it, it's, it's timely that we reconnected in my early twenties when I'm becoming a woman and, and becoming independent. So I think there was a longing for me to just know who she was, where she was, like, I had questions about things like, you know, what does she like to do in her free time? Like, what, you know, I wanted to know the girl that my mother

Crystal: 10:08

right,

Emely: 10:08

because I was developing my own identity and I didn't have. A reference point. And so I think, you know, for some of us, we need, we go back'cause we want that reference point and then we see it and we're like, oh hell no, I'm good. Like, that's not, I, I've seen all I need to see. I've seen all I

Crystal: 10:26

I've seen everything I need to see. It's a no, it's a no no

Emely: 10:31

It's a no. for me, it's a no for me.

Crystal: 10:33

You know, it's so crazy you say that because I as a mother my daughter now has children, and how you were like as a daughter, it's so funny because you're going to continually see this. Being a daughter and then being the mother of a daughter is just this, it is such a, it's, it's, it's wild sometimes, but

Emely: 10:53

it's mind blowing.

Crystal: 10:54

really is. It's like, wait, what? Who? Like who is she like as a mom, you know, we can only give what we got and only be and do and all that. It's like my mother wasn't very Mm. You know, it's like, here we go with the language. Right. We always, there's a part of us, I feel that we wanna protect our mothers and cover our mothers, but in the same breath. Right. Even when it's like, but in the same breath, it's like this platform Was created to be a safe space to talk about your perspective. Right? It's, it's their story. But this is my perspective of the story, right? There's always two sides, but this is what I received. This is what I got. This is how I feel about it, without judging it. Victimizing it, bashing it, anything like that. It's just like, this is how it made me feel, et cetera. So my mother, beautiful, amazing woman, she's still here. Thank God. You know, we have a very, I say colorful relationship. That's how I was like trying to make it sugarcoated.

Emely: 11:48

how I, I love

Crystal: 11:50

Yeah. I was like,

Emely: 11:51

Yeah.'cause it's so hard, like you said, and I, I see this as a therapist. It's hard for people to talk about their mothers in honest ways because it feels like we're criticizing our mothers and we never wanna do that to somebody who doesn't know our mothers. It's just, it's it's counterintuitive. So even if we had an abusive mother who was like, awful, it's not, it doesn't feel natural to sit in front of someone and talk about all the things that your mother wasn't. But the, the facts are The facts And also it doesn't have to be so black and white, Right? Like we can acknowledge the great things about our mothers and we can also say, but I feel like I was failed in these ways. And then be curious about, well, how was my mother. Potentially failed in those ways that prevented her from being able to be to mother me in those ways. Right. So I'm so glad you brought that up because Whew. It's hard for people to talk

Crystal: 12:40

It hard, but I, I think you said it perfectly. It's not just black and white. It's a lot of gray. And I tell people, life is a lot of gray, and true truths can exist at the same time. And we sometimes get hung up on, she didn't do this, but she did do this, right? Like, she can be this and this. We're multifaceted humans. So we could have this part of us that is this way and this part of it this way, but I was thinking my mom wasn't very like jokey funny, silly, hang out I was a little bit more. But as far as like the connection with my daughter, she grew up, we were talked very candidly, I think, you know, fairly young about how she was feeling like she wasn't getting what she needed emotionally. And it was like, I thought I was giving it to you emotionally. And then we have to look at the love languages, right? Like, I'm expressing my love to you in my language, but it's not translating over into your language. And so it's just this constant like ebbing and flowing. Does this work? Nope. Does this work? No, this is too much.

Emely: 13:37

Yeah. And then it triggers us, right? Because we didn't get it from our mothers and our daughters saying, I want this from you, and it feels far out of reach or out, like, we have to stretch outside of ourselves to provide it to our daughters, it feels super awkward. So like, one of the ways that I found this, this activates me is that my daughter is so, affection seeking. Like she just always wants to be on me, loving me, hugging me, kissing me, smelling my hair. Like she just physically wants to be back in my

Crystal: 14:07

Right, Right, right, right,

Emely: 14:09

And I didn't, because I didn't have my mother growing up, right. My, and also like the trauma of that experience for me. And I've been in therapy for almost 12 years, so I wanna like make that clear that I've been working on this for a long time. But one of the things my therapist helped me to see is like my mother had me at 15 and I was a premature baby who was incubated right after I was born. Me and my mother never had skin to skin. She didn't breastfeed me and then she shipped off to Puerto Rico after I'm born and I'm raised by my grandmother. So my daughter wanting such physical closeness to me is extremely overstimulating for me. Like I love giving her affection, but the degree to which she needs it, like the intensity and the duration and the frequency of which she seeks it, it's so hard for me, crystal. It's so and so. I've had to learn to like work with that because there's something somatic happening in my body that feels very like smothered. And, and I, once I made that connection psychologically, like, oh, this is about like what my mother and I didn't have. So like I don't have the tools yet. I haven't built that up to be able to give it to my daughter, but I'm learning that I can, but I can build it up. Now that I know that that's an need that she has and I'm aware of my mother wound and what I didn't get and why that activates me now I can just work to strengthen that muscle a little bit more. And so what does that look like? That looks different ways for us, but I'm learning, like you said, it's an ebb and a

Crystal: 15:42

Ebb and flow and

Emely: 15:44

to meet her

Crystal: 15:44

you know, and I tell, I would tell my kids, I was like, you know what I, I do believe. You know, there's a saying, everyone in our life is either a mirror, a teacher or an expander. And of course they can come and play multiple roles, but there's a main purpose that that person's in your life. And I say our children are all of those. They are our greatest teachers, our greatest expanders, our greatest mirrors. in the same breath, I would tell my kids, I say, look, I got you and you got me as a mother we are all learning. There's things that I needed to learn from you. There's things I, you need to learn from me. And I'm just, I'm really truly doing the best I can. And to feel inadequate as a mother is like for me. Let's do a little bit of astrology here. So I'm a Virgo,

Emely: 16:25

Hey, me too. Virgo season is upon us.

Crystal: 16:28

So listen, I don't read my horoscope every day and say what kind of dam I'm having. No. But I do take ancient teachings and knowledge about this particular sign. Right. And I always tell people there's healed versions and unhealed versions in all things. With Virgos in particular, we are critical. And not necessarily in a bad way, but we're very mindful. We're very detail oriented. We're always wanting to Do the best we can. And so when we look at some people, we're like, how is that your best? Like, this is what we're putting out. This is, this is trash. So this is the thing I had to learn about myself as a al mother. I would even tell my kids, I say, I know I can be a lot like, I recognize that I'm a lot like I understand that and I require.

Emely: 17:09

I love that you can tell your kids that though.'cause I feel like that's an evolved version too.

Crystal: 17:15

They'd be like, yeah, tell me about it. Because I was like, it's just this. And they're like, mom, literally nobody I know even does this. And I'm like, really? They're like, no, not one of my friends thinks this is just anything. And I'm like, well, and then I would tell this is the mom you got. But to to feel as an inadequate mother. Like,'cause my daughter, she wasn't very physical. It was almost the opposite with her. Isn't that funny? My first born son is a super touchy feely her. She was like three months old. And I tell people, I'm like, she's three months old. Obviously she can't talk, but energy doesn't lie. Right? And I'm trying to nurse her and she's just like, I don't need you. Just give me a bottle. Like energetically, she was telling me, just give me the bottle. Okay. I don't need you all up in my space like that. And it was like, I. What, what is that? Just you talking about your daughter, that overstimulates me because I'm not a super touchy feely person. My mother wasn't a super touchy, so to have my daughter I almost sought it from her more like, Hey, hey, wait, where were you going? And then it pulled up another issue, like abandonment. I'm like, we're really just out here

Emely: 18:16

Yes.

Crystal: 18:17

a mess. We're really out here a mess.

Emely: 18:19

listen. Just activated. Just here activated. There we're activated. I mean think about the emotional work that you've had to do to be your best self as a mother. And think about like the tools that you didn't have that you had to learn, right. Like, this is where we begin to look at our mothers with more compassion, even if there's hurt, even if there's resentment, even if there's rage, right? Like when you begin to see yourself more clearly and how, like that feeling of inadequacy, like, damn, I'm really trying my very best and still I. Sometimes on my best day mothering, I still feel like I'm a failure sometimes. Right? Like, that's such a real feeling. And I'll never forget the day my therapist said to me, she said, Emily, think about from your mother's perspective how much she probably doesn't feel worthy of being your

Crystal: 19:09

Mm.

Emely: 19:11

She was a teen mom, like very few resources, went through so much trauma, you know, estranged from her own mother. And here you are and you know, you, you're a first generation college student. You have a master's, you're a successful therapist. Now you're writing a book. Like in her eyes, it's probably like, oh my God, look at my daughter. Like, I'm not even, who am I like to be? Her daughter. And I, and when she said that, it, it just like broke my spirit.'cause I was like, oh my God, oh my God. Like now I see. Because like I'm thinking about it from, that's my mom. I want her to be all the things to me. And I don't see myself in this grand way. I see myself as like the daughter who didn't get mothered and, or no, my siblings did.

Crystal: 19:54

Yeah.

Emely: 19:55

But once I started looking at it from her perspective, I understood why sometimes she freezes. Sometimes when I seek a connection with her, she doesn't wanna get it wrong. So maybe what feels like emotional disconnection to me is really just her not knowing how to connect with me or not feeling worthy of my love. Like, and now we're at a point in our relationship where she can say that to me like, I'm Emily. I'm just So, like when I showed her my, um, book cover reveal for Bibliotherapy in the Bronx, she broke down. She was like, Emily, I am so proud of you. I'm so proud to be your mother. And I boohooed like I was two years old. Like, I'm like, you're proud of me.

Crystal: 20:33

you, there was 2-year-old Emily in there who was crying. That version of you did need to hear that, that validation from your mother was like,

Emely: 20:41

So healing.

Crystal: 20:42

I just,

Emely: 20:43

And meanwhile she's sitting there feeling like she's not good enough. And I'm like, oh my God, but you're my everything. Like, what do you mean? Like you could have, it could have been worse. You're still my mother. Like, and this is the thing that is tricky because, and I've seen this as someone who works with children, no matter how abusive, no matter how neglectful a parent is, children always crave a connection with their biological parent. That's just like biology. It's epigenetics. It's in our DNA. And so sometimes people feel like, well, am I broken that I'm still longing for this connection even though I know my parent is toxic or not good for me? And it's like, no, you're human. That's literally we're our brains are wired. Right? It's like evolutionary science to want a bond with our parent. And so one of the questions that you had sent me was like, how do, how do we know when to just like, let it

Crystal: 21:35

Oof. Yeah.

Emely: 21:36

Like how do we know when it's better to just like remain disconnected? And I think we know when we've come face to face and we've stared down the truth, like, is your parent harmful to you? If your parent is harmful to you, then absolutely it's best to be estranged because a parent who is harmful to you can only do more harm and hold you back, right? It doesn't mean that you don't love them. And I think that there's different, it doesn't have to be so black and white. Again, you don't have to just cut the cord. You can remain connected, but from a distance. Like there's different ways that that could look living in a different state, only communicating via, you know, the telephone. Deciding, like picking and choosing when you connect. In physical proximity, like there's a lot of different ways you can structure your boundaries in life to have some form of a connection to your, your parent, but I think that sometimes it's just

Crystal: 22:36

right.

Emely: 22:37

to not be connected, and that's

Crystal: 22:39

It

Emely: 22:39

But I think there's a tremendous amount of guilt.

Crystal: 22:41

Yeah, no, I think that's such a big part because the whole, this whole mending moms was navigating estrangement while healing. It's not about reconciliation, like great if both parties have grown and healed and that feels aligned and true to them, wonderful. But it's not to say everybody, every should be in your life, and that's even your mother. And sometimes people have a hard time

Emely: 23:03

even your

Crystal: 23:04

and I'm like, Nope, she's still a human like anybody else. So if it's not safe for you, if you feel unsafe in that space. For new, again, there's just so many reasons of why that may have come about. Then you have to do, and like you said, stare down the truth, being honest, and that may take time to even understand what that looks like and it's, I, you know, it's definitely healing on both sides. I feel like, just like in labor, when you give birth to your children, we're both working here, baby. We are a team in this, and it's the same thing when things are severed, exchanged, broken, whatever the terminology you wanna use, it's going to take that same effort on both sides for amending, if that's what's going to be the best

Emely: 23:46

And I love what you said about safety. If it's not safe for you, then cut the cord period. Like, and safety doesn't just mean physical safety, it's psychological and emotional safety too. I can't tell you how many times I've had. You know, attempts at people reconnecting with their mothers, even bringing their mothers into session. And I hear the, the vitriol that the mother speaks to their adult child with like, you're calling your daughter a bitch

Crystal: 24:10

Like how?

Emely: 24:11

do you call her when you're not in my office? Like this is not acceptable. And sometimes like there's an aha moment for the adult daughter of like, oh my God, you're, this is abuse. I guess I've just been so used to, this is how my mother talks that I never realized the impact it's having on me to have my own mother refer to me as like the B word or to speak to me like I'm just some chick off the street. I'm her daughter. Like, and, and so once you begin to like witness the wound and see it for what it is, then you can really come face to face with the fact of like, I don't feel safe. I'm not safe being connected to you. And I think safety is the, the compass here.

Crystal: 24:47

It's, it really is. I was estranged from my mother little bit of backstory. Got into high school, started dating the guy she didn't like. Everything went, you know, haywire to say the least. She got really upset with me one day and said, you're grounded. And I was like, no, I'm not, because I was so sick of it. And she said, if you're not grounded, you're getting out. I was 16, I said, I'm gone. So I left and she said, your mother's dead to you. I'm like,

Emely: 25:12

I'm good.

Crystal: 25:12

what? We lived in the same city. I didn't see her for a couple months. We were at the grocery store one day I see her,

Emely: 25:18

17 year.

Crystal: 25:19

and she walked right past me as if I don't exist.

Emely: 25:23

Oh,

Crystal: 25:23

It was, oh, it was unbelievable. The amount of. Hurt. So we were estranged for a while. I came back, left again. Okay. Now, as a mother adult child, my daughter has gone no contact with me. She basically said that help that I think I'm giving, isn't it? And she's just, she's removing herself from it. And here's the thing. I've always told my kids, if it's not safe, if you don't feel good, cut'em out. Cut it out, cut that out. Remove yourself. Remove like, and I tell people, I'm like, I created these children that were able to advocate for themselves and speak up from themselves. I didn't think it would be for me, but it's like, it has to go both ways. You know, they say that about raising strong daughters. It's such a strange space. Like I'm like, I'm proud of her for using her voice and advocating for herself for what she feels she needs. I don't know what that is. Only she knows that. And, and then of course the other part is like, heartbroken that we don't have this connection. So it's just like, this is what actually catapulted me to do mending moms.'cause we've always kind of had this turbulence within our dynamic. And I'm like, what is this? What is this residue? And I'm like, this is generational.. I've done the work and we talk healing isn't linear, right? And so we come through these cycles and we grow, but in the same breath, it's like, I'm holding space for you. I'm holding space for myself. Navigating, and healing and having peace within yourself to know that. I talk to friends who've knew me as a mom, as a young mom, and of course nobody's living in the house with you. And their perceptions are different. But I also see, I like live seeing to, um, children who've gone no contact with their parents to hear their point of view. You know, because it's like, I'm all about where can I grow? Where is there more healing? What, what's over here? And not to be addicted to it, right?'cause we have to have acceptance too. But in the same breath, it's like, okay, what, what is this? What triggered that? What is, is there something, let me go deeper. But at the end of the day, it's like I am, I'm proud for her to use her voice and I want her to continue to use her voice and her advocacy, whatever that may look like. And I, in my heart of hearts, I believe that it will be a reconciliation just because I know the love that we have for each other, like deeply.

Emely: 27:37

Absolutely.

Crystal: 27:38

I also know that sometimes it's just time. Sometimes it's just time. There's nothing to be done, there's nothing to fix. It's just that space is needed for both parties, for one party to grow, to feel whatever the case may be. So yeah, understanding these things so much earlier on with your daughter being smaller, like there's things I could see, but you having the language, truly the intellect, the space, like you're still working through it, right? But you understanding it.

Emely: 28:07

Still every day.

Crystal: 28:10

But, and that was gonna say too,'cause it's like you're trying to heal and grow and then you have somebody being like, you're doing it wrong.

Emely: 28:15

And, and it would be, it would be, our daughters, right? it would be our daughters, to be the ones that say it.

Crystal: 28:22

wrong. That's wrong.

Emely: 28:24

But what I love, first of all, I just wanna hold space for what you said, how difficult this is to have your daughter say like, mom, I need my space now. And I wanna acknowledge the love and care that you're putting into your process around staying separate. Because I think it's the opposite that tends to happen. Mothers who are not emotionally healed and evolved. We view our daughters as extensions of ourselves, and every daughter gets to a point where at some point she needs to distance herself from her mother. That that's really about carving out a separate sense of identity outside of your mother's shadow. And I do believe whether this happens at 17 or 27 or 30. This is a period that every daughter has to go through. Right. And it might look different for some daughters, it's no contact at all. For some daughters it's minimal contact. Right. And I do, I love what you said, that you know that at some point there will be a reconciliation because she knows that you love her and she knows that even in your imperfections that you would do anything for her. And that knowing is what will bring her back when the time is right. And I really honor and admire that about what you've shared here, because I think that it's very easy to feel so, activated by our daughters drive for independence and separateness. Right. Especially when we didn't get it from our mothers. And I, and I do see like a generational piece here, that when you were 16 you told your mother like, you don't get to dictate my life that way anymore. I'm becoming a woman. And she rebelled against that. And instead of. Drawing closer to you and, and, and framing it from the standpoint of, you know what? I'm just worried about you. I'm not really a big fan of the guy that you're dating. Instead of leaning into the, the love and the connection, she pushed you away. So then your response naturally is like, okay, well then I'm out.'cause you need, at that point, it's a developmental task where you're like, well then I have to prove to myself and to you, even if this hurts, that I can do it without you. I don't need you. You wanna kick me out of the house? Okay, cool. I'm gonna figure it out. And, and you did, right. So I think even like consciously or subconsciously, you know that what your daughter is doing is a psychic necessity For her. And you don't need to understand it. It hurts, deeply hurts. But the fact that you know that you don't need to understand it. You just have to honor your daughter. I mean, that, that just makes me wanna cry because how many of us can say that like. We've gotten to that point in our mothering journey where we can honor our children, our adult children, our adult daughters, specifically as whole beings outside of their connection

Crystal: 31:00

been a process, baby, and it's still a process. I wasn't always here and I tell people, this is not something that I just woke up with. I understand the layers. You know, but for myself, I'm like, look, I know I've done the work, baby. You have, you have no idea. Um, my ex spouse knows the idea'cause he sees me this is how I know there's a reconciliation. She had the baby. I don't think I told you my daughter just gave birth

Emely: 31:23

No, you didn't. Congratulations.

Crystal: 31:26

Thank you. And

Emely: 31:27

You gonna make me cry on this podcast

Crystal: 31:29

Good, good, good. She reached out to my husband with pictures and to let him know that she had the baby. And that act made me know that, okay, but here's the thing, maybe four days prior I had a dream. She had the baby. So I was like, I guarantee you, within this week that baby's coming. And that just goes to show the energetic bond. Like it doesn't matter what's happening here. It matters, but it doesn't matter. I know that there's deeper than this. Energy transcend space time He's so beautiful obstinate. He's so beautiful. Of course. He's so beautiful. And yeah, so it was so beautiful that she reached out to my husband. I was like, I'm so happy you're not collateral damage, because our relationship is in this space. I'm so glad she's still reaching out, and connecting with you. So I really do have so much gratitude and peace and to see it, and this is the thing, this is the growth piece, right? Like to get to a place where you can just feel at peace no matter what it may look like. And just when I was sharing that I'm doing this podcast, people were like, oh, you know, I'm so sorry that you and your daughter are going. And it's like, that's fine. Like, thank you. But I know it's a bigger purpose, right? It's always bigger than right here. And when you can pull out and see that perspective, it's like, oh. Yeah, that's okay because I'm gonna start this podcast and it's gonna help other women, mothers and daughters understand that it's healing. We all have to get, we gotta get to the root and understand how, how what is, what's under here. And having the courage, I think to say, to get to the root.'cause a lot of people, it's not easy. The work isn't easy, there's no magic peel. There's no magic potion. You.

Emely: 33:03

I wish there was, wi everybody always says motherhood doesn't have a, uh, you know, a roadmap or a how to guide and I'm likehow. Our lives would be so much easier if they did. But because of this intergenerational piece, you know, there is none. You have to reach back. You have to understand who your mother is, who she wasn't, who she couldn't be, to understand who you are and to make the connections between what comes up for you and your bond with your own child, like, and every child is different. So I love that you also juxtapose it with your son, right? Like it's, every child requires something different from us. And the main piece of this work is like. Understanding that one, as a parent, there's always gonna be something you didn't do or that you weren't good enough for, right? Like we always talk in psychology about the good enough mother, just making sure your child is safe, loved, protected, like the basics. You're not gonna get it. All right. Number one. And number two, a lot of this journey is like figuring it out as you go along, right? So I love that you also honored that, that like what she needed from you when she was little isn't what she needs from you now. But you always are connected. The fact that you had that dream four days before, you know your grandbaby was born, it just speaks to the, the spiritual aspect of a mother always knowing, a mother, always

Crystal: 34:23

It's true.

Emely: 34:24

being connected.

Crystal: 34:25

true. It really, it really,

Emely: 34:26

take that away.

Crystal: 34:28

it's so true. There isn't many things that I would change about the way I raised my children because we all do the best we can from our level of consciousness, right? And we can only do what we know, right? And so I see young mothers like you and I think about your beautiful baby girl, I mean both your children, but your beautiful baby girl and the dynamics. And I always, I just look at you all and I'm just like, I try to, you know, prepare you guys for preteens.'cause I'm like, listen, once those hormones, baby,

Emely: 35:00

ready. I'm gonna let you know right now.

Crystal: 35:05

but you know

Emely: 35:05

daughter is four. She will, she'll look at me, mommy, I'm outta here. And she'll stomp away from me and slam the door. And I just think to myself, I'm like, what is this gonna look like? When puberty

Crystal: 35:16

That. it's

Emely: 35:17

she's on her

Crystal: 35:18

No, no. It's

Emely: 35:19

I just don't think I'm on.

Crystal: 35:20

Oh, this is, this is gonna give you some, this is gonna give you some solace. What you're seeing now is what you're gonna see in a bigger form, like the three major, it's a real thing. The toddler years is giving you what it's gonna be like in, in teenage form. So what you're seeing, so this is the thing, because you've been dealing with it for so long, you'd be like, great. There goes the door again. Look, little miss, little miss is upset again. Look at that. Surprise. Surprise. It's gonna be like, I got this. Okay. I want you to talk about you're amazing book. You published author,

Emely: 35:52

Crazy.

Crystal: 35:53

bestseller out the gate pre-orders. But I also would love for you to share. Any other resources with dealing with the mother wound for someone who's like, okay, I think this is me. You gave me the breakdown. Now what do I do now that I realize this isn't just me being crazy or my mom just being a monster, or what do I do with this information?

Emely: 36:15

yeah, absolutely. So there's a few books that I I think really tackle this well. And I'm big because I specialize in bibliotherapy, uh, not just reading like nonfiction. I think sometimes fiction really helps us to access these parts of ourselves that are very difficult to like talk about and access. So I, I love using fiction in therapy as well because I think when we connect to fictional characters, they do hold up kind of a mirror to what we got and didn't get or what we hoped to get. We can grieve with more ease. We can have an emotional experience that feels cathartic with our defenses being lowered. I think sometimes fiction gives us an entry point that feels more, just easeful, you know. So I will say one of my favorite books on the Mother Wound that's a fictional story is Housie Street by Naima Costa. Um, this is a mother-daughter story and it's really about, um, a daughter who has a very, uh, conflicted relationship with her mother. Her mother is a hard woman. Um, she's getting older. She's, you know, she's kind of approaching that phase of her life where we know she's not gonna be alive for much longer. And she's just, the daughter is forced to contend with big questions around like, my mother's never gonna change.

Crystal: 37:36

Hmm.

Emely: 37:36

who she is, this is who she was, this is who she's gonna be until her last day. And we really get to experience this journey of. Like grief and just acceptance of the mother wound through this main character. So Housie Street is like my number one go-to

Crystal: 37:52

Ooh. Love that.

Emely: 37:54

And then I've got some titles that I think are really great non-fiction titles as well. So in terms of the intergenerational piece here, I would highly recommend Break the Cycle by Dr. Maria Bouquet. Um, Dr. Mariel is a Dominican American psychologist and she really looks at this generational, trauma healing work from a cultural

Crystal: 38:15

Ooh,

Emely: 38:15

that I think really, speaks to some of the like cultural and societal nuances of what are, how things get passed down generationally, especially from mothers who lack support.'cause I think a lot of times too, we have mothers who resent their daughters, right, or start to resent their daughters as their daughters grow up and, and they see all of the things that their daughters have access to that they didn't, whether that be beauty, whether that be education, right? So like. In what ways does that get, acted out or passed down through the family

Crystal: 38:48

You know what?

Emely: 38:48

definitely break the

Crystal: 38:49

On that note, my, my mother actually would say when my kids are smaller, and I'd come over to the house and she's like, where are the kids? And I'm like, they're with their dad. She's like, I never got a break.

Emely: 38:59

Wow. I love that. She could say that out loud to you too.

Crystal: 39:03

I said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry you didn't get a break. Every mother needs a break. Every woman needs a break. Like, I'm so sorry you didn't get that. But it was definitely this residue of like, resentment about it, because I'm like, wait, but are you mad that I'm getting a break? Or I'm like, I'm going on a girls' trip, a girls' trip. I never got to go on a girls' trip. I'm so sorry. You never got to go and recharge so that's a beautiful example of how that is. It's like, wait, are you mad at me? Because I'm like, let my daughter girl, I, I hope you do get nannies and drivers and shifts. I'm like, woo. Love it.

Emely: 39:37

Okay, Period.

Crystal: 39:38

ahead. Go.

Emely: 39:39

Period. Yep. I want that for my daughter too. And just think about, this is a theme that needs to be explored more in the literature too, is like jealousy and envy, even unconscious jealousy and envy in the mother-daughter relationship. And how that gets acted out when it's not in our conscious awareness. Because I think that takes a certain amount of emotional, um, maturity and a mother's part too, to get to a place where, you know, where you recognize you didn't have certain things and your daughter is benefiting from those privileges. You know, I hope that we could all want more for our daughters, but if you're not healed in that place, then you begin to look at your daughter as competition, or you do begin to let that resentment seep into the bond, right? And that could be very harmful to the relationship. So I love that your mother could say

Crystal: 40:25

Well, yeah, and you know, my daughter would ask me questions.'cause you know, she was kind of navigating single mom life and I was a single mother, and so she would ask me questions and she'd be like, how can I get.$800 and I'd be like, when I was in that place, that didn't even come into my psyche. It was like, I can't have it. It wasn't like, how could I get it? And I said, so the fact that your mind even goes, how can I create$1,500 in the next two days? I was like, oh, I just can't do this program so I was like, wow, I so envy this. Very like, oh no, we are gonna just rise up. We're not gonna stay small. Like, I didn't have that then. But in the same breath, it was like, I only know what I know. And so what I would talk to her, I was like, baby, you want me to give something to you? I don't even have that. Like when I was a single mom at twenties, I didn't think this way, do you want my history like I've learned over time, so, yeah. Anyway, go on. This is, this is

Emely: 41:16

That's a great example. So there are a few here discovering the Inner Mother, A Guide to Healing the Mother Wound, and claiming Your Personal Power by Bethany Webster. Um, children of the Self-absorbed a grownup Guides to getting over Narcissistic parents by Nina W. Brown, um, adult daughters of narcissistic mothers. Quiet the critical voice in your head, heal self-doubt and live the life you deserve by Stephanie m Kreisberg and Wendy t Behari. Will I ever be good enough? Healing The Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers by Carol McBride, difficult Mothers adult daughters. I love this one, especially for those that realize that they have to cut the cord with their mothers. Um, and this is Difficult. Mothers Adult Daughters a Guide for Separation, liberation and Inspiration by Karen CL Anderson. This is my, my go-to. I tell everybody they should read this book Regardless. Surviving Mama, overcoming Strained Mother-Daughter Relationships by Dr. Pamela Everett Thompson, who is also a black psychologist.

Crystal: 42:14

I'm gonna add that. Ooh, I'm so excited.

Emely: 42:17

It's a, it's a must read, must buy, must having your personal library. Um, and then lastly, I highly recommend the workbook of this one as well, but this book is Adult children of emotionally immature Parents, how to Heal from Distant Rejecting or Self-Involved Parents by Lindsay c Gibson. So those are like a few of my go-to recommendations.

Crystal: 42:35

There was a lot of narcissists.

Emely: 42:37

a lot of narcissism who listen.

Crystal: 42:38

Do you feel like that's a hot word?

Emely: 42:40

Because I, I, yeah, I do. And I think it's often misused, right. But I do think that when it comes to the mother wound, a lot of us have narcissistic mothers. They didn't, they didn't like choose to be that way. Right? Like if they were nar, if they struggle with narcissistic personalities, it's because it, it helped them to survive. They developed that personality for a reason, right? But I think being able to understand when you have a mother that's narcissistic. Helps you to not internalize her issues as being because of you. Like she, she may not have shown you the love and care and quality of connection that you deserve, because she literally cannot, she doesn't know how. And doing so would be the annihilation of her own very sense of self. And I think that that like when that aha moment and that light bulb goes off for, for, for mothers, uh, for daughters of narcissistic mothers in therapy, it's such a relief. It's such a burden to let go of.'cause it's like, oh, the whole time I thought it was me. I thought I was broken. I thought I was unlovable. I thought, I thought that there was something that I could do to access some tenderness from her to access some emotional closeness from her. And it's like, no, your mother is not emotionally close to anybody. she, she She can't be Her Her whole personality is designed Right, Her safety. Exactly. Her whole psychic safety is structured in such a way that emotional closeness is not a possibility. It never was. Before you got here, it wasn't possible. And now that you're here, you're just the, the target of animosity because you crave that

Crystal: 44:21

Oh,

Emely: 44:22

So now you're the reminder of what she cannot be or do.

Crystal: 44:26

what a sick game. What kind of sick?

Emely: 44:28

It's deep.

Crystal: 44:29

game is this? That's so intense. It's like, yeah, that'd be, that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother episode.'cause that is just, that is, yeah, that's that. Let's talk about your book. You are always lifting up, but let's talk about your amazing debut book as a published author, so

Emely: 44:49

Yeah. Thank you sis. It is very. Yeah. It's, I'm just so grateful. Like this has been such a, a labor of love and like of community effort, you know, it wasn't just me.'cause like, I would be perfectly consented to just do great therapy with folks behind closed doors. And it was my community that was like, no, baby, we gotta tell these stories. We gotta, you know, we, we wanna know, we wanna see like, give us the, the insider look into your therapy room. So, yeah, so I'm just so excited that so many of my clients were like, yeah, you know, you could share my case study and like, what, you know, people just, um, this is a community offering. This is really about how connecting to stories, the stories of others helps us to connect to our own and helps us to heal and helps us to make meaning out of life's experiences, particularly in marginalized communities like those in the Bronx. Right. Um. And so I'm just so I get emotional every time I talk about it.'cause like it's, it's just been a long time coming and there's so much love in these pages and, you know, this is also my story. So there is a lot of, um, stories in there about my grandmother, about my father. I don't talk a lot about my father. Um, that's a wound for me as well. Right? And like talking about the mother wound. So like, there's also this piece with my daughter where I see how she has access to tenderness and closeness with my husband that I don't even get. And I, I be getting jealous'cause I'm like oh, he he would never, he would never let me do the things that she does. Like, she does little silly things. Like she, she loves grabbing his face and like kissing his face up and he just like soaks up her love. And I'm like, dang, I can't even get a, a cuddle. You know what I mean? And so just being aware of it in myself, I know it's'cause I didn't have that with my dad, like I, I did before he became addicted. My father is a veteran. Um, my mother was 15. He was. 17 when she got pregnant, and then in an effort to want to, to father me and provide, he goes off to the military and he gets addicted to cocaine, and he comes back and being black American in the hood, what does he get addicted to? Crack cocaine. So his, his, you know, life, um, deteriorated in that way. And I know that I have early memories of emotional closeness with him because I have the pictures like he would baby wear me, you know, like on the basketball court he would take me to play or with his boys. So like I, I know it was there, but our relationship is fraught with complication, especially now that I'm an adult and I'm a pa like my father has never met my children. I don't know that he will, I don't know when he'll ever be stable and clean enough to be able, for me to feel comfortable enough to introduce him to his grandchildren. And it breaks my heart every day. Um. And then I see my daughter just building this beautiful, I mean, my daughter and her dad are just like, they're gang. Like they, they just, it's so beautiful, um, witnessing their bond. It's just such a beautiful bond and I love that she gets that from him. And I just see this being such a, a model for her of the kind of love that she deserves, you know,

Crystal: 48:10

Absolutely. All children deserve yes to have. Right. That's

Emely: 48:15

all

Crystal: 48:15

beautiful. Oh,

Emely: 48:17

Absolutely. So the, the book is, you know, it, it, it's told from my perspective as a therapist, but I do weave in a lot of personal stories.'cause I want people to understand like. How, one, like what led me to becoming a Biblio therapist, like the ways that a love of reading, of literacy, of engaging with stories enriched my internal images and my understanding of the dream space and being able to dream up possibilities for myself that weren't present in my, in my life. Right? Like, how did a love of reading open up my worldview? And, um, eventually I, I go to England and I study abroad and I learn about the work of Susan Elkin and Ella au and, and the biblio therapists out there, which wasn't really a term in America. So when I, I study in England, I really begin to kind of understand this as like a clinical specialty of how literature can be incorporated into healing work. And then I come back to the states, I graduate and I get accepted into my master's of social work program to train to become a therapist. And I just like sort of weaved in both, areas of expertise. So this is really about,, my life, the lives of my clients in the Bronx, how I've incorporated hip hop therapy, poetry therapy, and bibliotherapy and expressive writing therapy and journaling therapy into my work as a therapist. You got some case studies in there. You've got a reflection at the end of each

Crystal: 49:45

Oh, I love it.

Emely: 49:46

not a therapist or a librarian or a teacher, but you just love reading and you want to learn more about this technique. You're gonna have like a lot of really cool, uh, resources there to incorporate bibliotherapy into your own practice as a reader. So I'm really excited about

Crystal: 50:00

so many.

Emely: 50:00

really excited about it. And it's, it's vulnerable. It's vulnerable.

Crystal: 50:04

people love behind the scenes. Don't we love it? We'd love a behind the scenes. Why'd you get here? What is, Ooh, this is her story. I mean, it just, it helps to personalize, it helps to feel more connected and I just am so proud of you to be so vulnerable and to share the story. Your gyms, your knowledge, your love with the world, like your community. Yes, but the world, ultimately it's just, it's just the beginning. I know. It's just the beginning. Where can they get,

Emely: 50:28

it is Barnes and Noble, uh, Simon and Schuster book, Ilion, Amazon, all the things. So if you go to academy dot literacy nyc.com, you'll see all of the places that you can pre-order the book. And, you know, pre-orders are so

Crystal: 50:43

I got my First day

Emely: 50:44

of color. So I've been trying to like find a balance between like marketing my pre-launch for pre-orders and also like self-care.'cause it's already so vulnerable to like put a book maybe in the world that I feel like energetically, I don't wanna like do the most. I just wanna like trust that this book will find the right reader. But I also know that I have to talk about my book and I have to like, promote it so.

Crystal: 51:09

because some people didn't hear it, so we need to repeat it, repeat it. Like, it's so exciting. If you could give us one last piece of advice on the mother wound or whatever feels good, what would you, what would you leave us with on today's topic? What's something that you would like to share for somebody who's listening that says, wow, this is me.

Emely: 51:31

that's a really great question and a big one. I

Crystal: 51:35

She's like, pressure. Don't feel too much pressure, because there's, yeah. Don't feel pressure.

Emely: 51:40

no, I love that question. I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is the idea of mirrors and how our mothers are our first mirrors, and how our mothers and our relationships are our mothers, and what they reflect back to us.

Crystal: 51:54

Hmm.

Emely: 51:55

It's the first place where we begin to develop our self-perception. And what I want people who are listening to this podcast to know is that some of our mothers were broken mirrors. And what they reflected back to us that maybe we internalized as our self-perception was untrue. So by acknowledging that we can have an entry point to healing, you're not broken. You're not broken. And if your mother wasn't able to give you the things that you needed,, it wasn't necessarily because she didn't love you, Right, Like, I, I don't want people feeling like lost in the sauce around like, well, dang, you know, I am unworthy, I am unlovable because of what was reflected back to me. Like, allow yourself to grieve. Allow yourself to reach, allow yourself the sadness and the depth. Of the sadness around what you didn't get, but also lean into self-compassion because the marere that your mother was may have been a broken mare. And it doesn't mean that she didn't love you, it just meant that she couldn't reflect back what she didn't get.

Crystal: 53:02

Ooh,

Emely: 53:02

So I hope that that can free somebody

Crystal: 53:04

ooh. Me. Me. That was, Ooh, I got chills. I mean, that just, Hmm. That you Thank you for Thank you. Thank you for you sharing such beautiful words, like received all of it. It's beautiful. Thank you so much, Emily.

Emely: 53:20

Thank you for having

Crystal: 53:21

space to share such beautiful words, insights, vulnerabilities. I'll post all the things. Your amazing book. Everybody better go run and get it. I'm so excited, so proud of you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on.

Emely: 53:33

thank you

Crystal: 53:34

We're all growing. cheers to healing.

Emely: 53:36

Amen to that. Cheers to healing. Yes. Day by day. Like we say, step by step

Crystal: 53:45

step by step. Thank you,

Emely: 53:47

we never stop healing. Right. There's No, like, end point. It's hopefully it's a lifelong evolution of

Crystal: 53:54

that's what it should be. We're constantly get more information. Oh, well, let me adjust this. Well, let me do this. Yeah. Thank you so much, sweetie. Thank you so much.

Emely: 54:03

Thank you sis.