This is Disruption
This is Disruption podcast explores the pursuit of creativity and shares the stories of the fearless creators in street art, graffiti, music, photography and beyond, who boldly challenge the status quo, break barriers for others and share their work unapologetically. Each episode is a deep dive interview exploring the lives of artistic risk takers, exploring their motivations, their inspirations, and their take on the power of art, in whatever form they make it in.
The podcast is hosted by Irish street artist and DJ, Did by Rua, based in London.
This is Disruption
All Seeing Ra: Spirituality, Self-Expression, and the Street Art Journey
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This was a really special conversation, and one you're not going to want to miss. Tune in to hear the transformative journey of All Seeing Ra, a remarkable street artist who turns emotions and personal experiences into spontaneous, vivid creations. Raised in a spiritually diverse household, Ra has found therapeutic solace in art, embracing a life led by creativity rather than seeking what we are told we should chase.
This was a beautiful and authentic conversation where we explore his unique path, from travelling abroad and visiting the vibrant streets of Vancouver to the spiritual teachings of Buddhism, revealing how these influences shape his approach to art and life. Ra's story is a testament to the power of personal happiness and the intrinsic value of art beyond monetary gain.
Ra recounts the profound impact of meaningful connections and how they have enriched his artistic journey. Whether it's a touching experience of tattooing his former art teacher or unexpected encounters with his heros and fellow artists, Ra highlights the importance of community and collaboration. His path took a turn during the onset of COVID-19, pushing him to reconnect with his passion for graffiti and street art. Through trials and triumphs, Ra's narrative shows how adversity can become a catalyst for rediscovering one's purpose and creativity.
Ra also shares his insights on the risks and rewards of public creativity, and the complexities of navigating legal challenges and the balance of expressing oneself artistically. Beyond visual art, Ra's passion extends to music as a medium for storytelling and self-expression.
This episode is a celebration of the creative life, where every spray of paint and every beat in a song becomes a journey of self-discovery, community, and the enduring power of art.
I'm really proud of this one, thanks to Ra for letting me share his story. x
Check Ra on Instagram right here
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Hello there. You are very welcome to. This is Disruption podcast with me, your host Rua. This podcast brings you in-depth interviews with the fearless creatives in street art, graffiti, music, photography and beyond, who boldly challenge the status quo, break barriers for others and share their work unapologetically. Each episode is a deep dive into the lives of artistic risk takers, exploring their motivations, their inspirations and their reasons for their willingness to disrupt societal norms. Some of these stories involve revolutionizing their industries, while others are pushing the boundaries of legality with their art.
Speaker 2:Coming up on today's episode the artwork is doing the talking, like it's leaving an impression, which is kind of what we're trying to do. You know, as I said, I'm making marks so that I feel something and if they connect then that's just a fucking wicked bonus. It may be absolutely wild and weird to most people, like the average passerby is probably thinking that we're ruffians or strangers, you know, but but that's, I'm living when I'm doing that and I think, hopefully that comes across it's the only time I really feel like I'm alive. I never leave home without paint.
Speaker 2:Now, even if I know I ain't going to paint, I might still paint. You know, there's always a chance that I can find somewhere. So yeah, my heart's in it now and I think if you've got that, the rest can kind of fall into place as it might. Naturally. But before I was never really so dedicated and, as I say, now I get to wake up and every day I get to create. Like it's kind of mad, some of the places that we find ourselves and the stuff that we do is for nothing else except for that living on the precipice and feeling as alive as you can at that moment. And it just so happens that cans are the conduit.
Speaker 1:In this episode I sat down with the super talented street artists, all seeing Ra. I've really struggled to write this introduction because Ra is truly one of a kind and we had a really special conversation. Don't just take my word for it. Stay tuned and get busy creating something as you listen in. This is Disruption. I am so happy to be here today. This episode has been months in the making. I am with an incredibly talented artist, all Seeing Ra.
Speaker 1:I always do an introduction for these episodes where I give a little bit of background about the person I'm about to interview, so that the audience can learn a little bit about the guest before we really get into it. And we will do that. But just before I do, I also wanted to add a bit more personal context about Ra. I've really struggled for the past week thinking how do I introduce Ra? Because Ra is a really special person. He is not only an incredibly talented artist, but he's one of those really special humans that are super vibrant and have this amazing inspiring energy to be around. You hear about those people that can light up a room, and Ra is one of those people. I have seen it happen. I am delighted to call him a friend, so, ra, super excited to talk to you today. Thank you so much. This has been a very long time coming it has.
Speaker 2:And can I just say like that it's so nice to hear like a resume from someone else about me. I mean, we've we've been talking about this for months and I've always said that if I was ever to sort of burst this cherry, I'd like to do it with you because we vibe anyway. So I'm super, super happy to be here and, yeah, I appreciate your uh patience in in this uh lead up. But thank you so much, and the intro was kind of humbling, to be honest. So, um, yeah, feeling quite satisfied today oh, I'm glad.
Speaker 1:Well, you are a super humble person well, no you definitely are. Like I said, I really struggled because I was like anybody who's met you in person will know exactly what I'm talking about. The thing is on instagram. You see somebody's art.
Speaker 1:You don't actually see the person behind it and I'm very lucky to have got to know you from being in london and the community that we have here. So I wanted to mention that because there's so few people that you meet and you're just like instantly. This is one of my people yeah, likewise yeah so let's talk about what you do. And if you wouldn't mind, can you? Please tell me in your own words who you are and what do you do okay.
Speaker 2:So, uh, my name is rah all seeing Ra as the moniker and I invite people to look into my mind a little bit.
Speaker 2:Every time I paint, I think about how I feel, what I'm going through.
Speaker 2:Even just a random connection that might happen that day will potentially lead into what I paint and how I paint it. I have no real plan usually when I go out and do stuff, and I'm still very much in the creative but not business stage, so I don't have maybe the repertoire of some of my elders or some of the people that I look up to in the sense that I'm really not what you'd call an artist in the sense that I don't have a big vision or a brand. I just like to create, I just like to paint realistically. It's mostly therapy, if I'm honest, like when I go out and do stuff, it's because I know that I'll feel happier having done that thing, whatever that thing might be. So, uh, yeah, when I say I'm an artist, I mean that in the loosest possible sense. You know, I'm just a guy that likes to paint shit, that's it you've mentioned how it's like therapy and I totally agree art really is like therapy yeah start at the beginning.
Speaker 1:Can you tell me about little rah?
Speaker 2:okay. So little rah was pretty much the same as Big Ra. We're probably quite similar height, because I never really grew up. Little Ra was born into a household of mixed heritage, and by that I mean spiritually mixed. So we had my mum, who came from a colonialist British country, kenya, so that's a largely Christian country, and she is historically Hindu. So her background is, you know, they've got a million and one gods and they've all got different names and colors. And then my dad's, from a Buddhist country, so another colonialist environment, and they both came to the UK under different means. And then when I was born I was kind of what you might call a surprise child, like they had a few miscarriages and things.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a very spiritually blessed household, very relaxed, very, like you know, colorful and rich. We were never like well off as such. We did what we could. I've got a little brother who's five years younger than me, so we had four of us. One thing my parents did a lot when we were kids and I don't even do this that much as an adult is. We traveled. So with the very little money they did have disposably, we would always go on a big holiday every year or something like that. So a lot of my fondest memories are of some of these trips away and that has, if I'm being honest, it's probably all that travel that has opened up my mind and helped me to engage with my artist self. So I think it's, it was always there.
Speaker 2:I think I was always involved in and leaned more towards creativity, um, and lord knows, I got pulled in every which way. You know, because when you come from a family like mine, the impetus is kind of on being well off or, like you know, trying to be safe and satisfied and comfortable. Um, so I was always pulled into the more academic and I always felt like, deeply, that it wasn't for me, didn't get on with school very well. I mean, I had friends. I always felt a bit different or distant, so I kind of just had to lean into the standard, the norms of society, but I always felt slightly out of place wherever I was. So, yeah, being able to grow out of that and into who I am now. I'm extremely fortunate to have been given the freedom to do that, but it hasn't been easily fought, so I've had to kind of come back and forth from various things.
Speaker 2:I actually studied law for a while, you would believe. I did a year of law at City University and that didn't go so well for certain reasons. But at the back of that I was like how can I actually try and understand who I want to be? And then I found a foundation course at London Met just down the road from Brick Lane, did that and just realized just how much I personally benefit from thinking about making a mark or taking a photograph or having some kind of humility to the, to the place I'm at and that kind of in.
Speaker 2:In many ways that whole tapestry there has led me to where I am now and I try to keep spiritual. I mean, it doesn't work all the time, but I'm thinking about it and, uh, I try and stay active and creative, try to be inquisitive as much as I can. As a kid I was always the one that wandered off or didn't stick around for playtime and shit. I'd be trying to climb walls or leave the premises, you know, and I've been known to disappear. So I've kind of kept up with that. If anything I've just now I can do it without the worry of my parents and shit, and I say it's a bit more safe for me. Yeah, like I can do it without the worry of my parents and shit, you know.
Speaker 1:So it's a bit more safe for me. Yeah, like an adventure. You're definitely a free spirit. I hope so.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yes, where is your dad from Sri Lanka? Oh yeah, so, and I finally went there as an adult. I remember we did go as, like when I was like two, I don't remember, and even then I was still trying to run away from everyone, but we went there in 2018 and my dad had never been back to the country since our first trip, when I was a baby and my brother weren't even around. So we finally went as a unit and it was one of those.
Speaker 2:You hear a lot about your background history, but as someone who has parents from other countries and for conflict or even money woes couldn't make it out there too often, it was really humbling to go back and see. We went back to my dad's actual house, where he was born and like where he lived and grew up, and just seeing the stories that he had was actually really like I learned more about my dad, who I thought I knew everything about, you know, and that that just shows me that you never stop learning as a human, like individually or with people, or about people, family and otherwise. So, yeah, very fortunate to have had that. I think that was my favorite holiday. We did about three weeks. We went to all of the temples that I'd seen on postcards and old pictures. I was blown away, so I encourage everyone. If you haven't go to Sri Lanka, it's a wonderful, wonderful place and very pretty and warm, which is always nice when you come from Britain, where it's perpetually not.
Speaker 1:Have you ever been tempted to go and live abroad, or have you lived?
Speaker 2:abroad. I have dabbled in various places, both in the UK and, somewhat overseas. I went to Vancouver in 2016. A couple of my friends two of my closest friends in the UK they hooked up and then they decided to emigrate and they had a company that they worked for here doing special effects, effects for movies. They were really into that whole coding and interesting sort of crazy technical stuff. And then the company they worked for opened up a new branch in Vancouver and offered them basically to set them up, and so they went.
Speaker 2:A couple years passed and I wasn't in the right place to really afford or to dedicate myself to you know what I considered to be something flippant like a holiday, but they encouraged me so much and then finally I bit the bullet. I bought an open ticket and I spent just a bunch of time out there and they showed me. I know this is probably going to sound quite rude. As a British person born and bred, all I know and love is this place, but when I went to Canada I felt like it was all the best of the British lifestyle, but with the added benefit of having the great outdoors, and I mean like the greatest outdoors. It's insane like Vancouver City has mountains in every which way you look, and then a big old sea as well. So you're right there on the cusp of all the different elements and seasons, and they have bears and shit.
Speaker 2:You know like it's it's pretty rugged and, uh, I don't know, I just felt very small but but happy with that. You know, like it's it's pretty rugged and, uh, I don't know, I just felt very small but but happy with that. You know, whereas in britain sometimes I can feel very small but not so happy with that, because you just become a statistic or a number out there, I was happy to get lost. You know, it felt like, uh, like a level of freedom I haven't experienced in what we'd call a western country. I've always had to go south of the hemispheres to kind of feel that freedom.
Speaker 2:So that was that was probably the first place I ever looked at and was like I could see myself here and they got a great street art scene before I was even involved. So, yeah, it's 2016. They have like a the whole street art festivals and stuff and all the walls in center of vancouver are like either covered by graffiti or they have these amazing murals and productions. So I was always I've got so many photos from back then which I collected of just the stuff I saw at the time because, again, it was inspiring as someone that liked to draw but never had that freedom to do so, so I think that left somewhat of an impression as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing how you can go somewhere else and get so inspired, right? Yeah, and vancouver is a really special, have you been?
Speaker 2:yeah, oh, you have okay, so you know exactly what I mean.
Speaker 1:Then it's, it's cool so it's this amazing city and, just like you said, it's super modern and it's really fantastic.
Speaker 2:But then there's canada yeah, nature is unrivaled, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1:They have this thing. It's called fly over canada in vancouver, yeah and it's an experience that you go into, but it's this experience. They strap you in and then the floor comes away and you're surrounded by screens. And then you, you feel like you're flying okay, okay, cool, and it was one of the best experiences I've ever had like immersive, but not only sight and sound the feeling of flying they spray scent, okay.
Speaker 2:So one of those 4d experiences like, yeah, so if you fly over the ocean they spray water on you.
Speaker 1:But you smell sea salt ocean oh, that's deep.
Speaker 2:Okay, I like that doing that experience I did that.
Speaker 2:I came off and immediately I was like I want to go again yeah it's truly a spectacular it is yeah and amazingly you got kind of more immersed in I only dipped a toe in the in the um, the west coast, and I know there's a whole east side that I haven't seen yet, the french-speaking side but we did banff, we did like some of the rockies and, oh man, sometimes I find myself going on my old facebook account just to look at those photos again and remind myself the majesty of it all, because it keeps you straight, like you, just like, okay, I know where I've been and that should help me tailor where I'm going. That's kind of my trajectory. So sometimes I do reminisce on old photos, even the s Sri Lanka pictures. I still look back at those quite often. We haven't done a family holiday since, just for a variety of reasons, but it's nice to know that I've ticked off some very cool places that have no doubt had an impact on who I am. So, yeah, very humbled.
Speaker 1:One of the things you've just mentioned that I'd love to learn a little bit more about is you are quite spiritual and you are a Buddhist. Yeah, coming from a background where, in your household, there is mixed religion what was it that led you towards Buddhism?
Speaker 2:So Buddhism is one of those things that I personally wouldn't even call it a religion. It's a train of thought, it's a way to behave and understand things that is actually very personal. It's not about following a deity or a book. Even I read this meme a little while ago that basically said Buddhism is just trying not to be a cunt and realistically, that's pretty much it, and everyone can instill Buddhism in that sense every day. You know, every waking moment you can just be like do I want to be an arsehole today or can I try and attract more positive? You know, and that's pretty much how I try and attract more positive. You know, that's pretty much how I try and operate. I'm not here to try and convert people or anything like that. It's a spiritual thing for myself, because spirit is one. There's one of them. You have to have it.
Speaker 2:I always loved the religions of the world, you know, whether it be you know the Abrahamics or some of the more wacky and wonderful ones like Zoroastrianism, which I'm still learning about, but I think what's built me up is having come from where I've come, had the household that I've had, but then also had the most widest diaspora of friends and friendships as I got to grow up, I always liked the idea of connections.
Speaker 2:Didn't realize how important that might be, but I've always loved just to have a meaningful something with someone you know, whether it be on the bus just happening past each other, you know, or with certain teachers that I still keep in touch with. I actually random side note I actually tattooed my old art teacher quite recent or like a year ago, and that was probably the most like. I solidified that I was okay, you know, but he was the the only person that ever believed in my art style and maybe encouraged me to think about stuff, whether it be street art or graffiti, and at the time I was just tagging. So when he finally found me on Instagram somehow and messaged and said oh, I see that you do tattoos, I'd love you to tattoo me.
Speaker 2:I was like this is a pinch me moment, you know so, like having those kind of experiences where people have come back into my life. It just remembers that that connection is always there. You know, it may be something like a fleeting night bus chat with an old lady or something, but it's there, it happened, it exists. You put it out into the world. So that's kind of, when I say spiritual, when I say buddhist, it's just about trying to be the best I can personally be and hoping that has a good impact.
Speaker 1:I think that's pretty much it, I think that's so beautiful and I love that you got to tattoo your teacher I know tell me how did you get into tattooing, so I it's again.
Speaker 2:It's one of those random connections. There's a guy, um shawny b, big up, shawny b, he's a kingston resident and I've been born and raised in kingston and then spent time away from it for you know, whatever reasons. And when I came back, having kind of found myself artistically, he said to me one day like dude, come around and I'll give you a tattoo, or I can't. I can't remember exactly what it was. As you can probably tell, my theme for my own body and my own tattoos is eyes. I have, I think, 53 of them at the moment. I'm trying to get to 100 before the year's out. I know I'm going to be bullying my skin, but that's my thing. So he's been like telling me like where would you like to get them? And at the time I wanted to get my tops of my hands done. So I went round, he did those and he said, like would you ever like to to try tattooing? I mean, I've never done it before, but I was always fascinated with the culture behind it and in my head I was like it's just drawing on something squishy. So yeah, let's give it a go. And he exactly right. And, trust me, it was fucking hard. But it was so exhilarating because you can't make a mistake suddenly. It's not like a wall where I can just paint over it or rub it out with an eraser, like that shit is permanent, you know, and laser surgery is crazy expensive. So he actually gave me a machine when he'd finished mine or I think vice versa and was like right, draw out one of your characters and we'll see how it goes. And he gave me quite a big bit of skin on his calf and I'm like, are you sure he's like I trust you man. So we did that, had the most fun, that tattoo even though I've done hundreds since I think that's my most meaningful because it was him and it was that and I actually went back about six months later and we shaded it in. So the first was just the outlines and then I shaded it in and that was like I've kind of come full circle now.
Speaker 2:Tattooing was a completely sporadic thing. Didn't expect to find myself doing it. Didn't expect to effectively have built a cult around it now, which is kind of wild, like I've got people worldwide that are rocking my, my character and I'm just like this is wild. So, uh, again, very grounding experience to have people like wanting my work on their skin and to trust me to do that. So, yes, another segue, another weird trajectory that I've ended up on. That I'm extremely grateful for. You know, I can't complain, and I've tattooed myself a few times now as well, which is a very strange experience, but at first I was like no way, I'll never do that, and now like I'll do it because I'm bored. One day you know.
Speaker 1:So it's changed. Isn't it such a vote of confidence when somebody says not only do I like your art so much, I want it on my body. Yeah, what a compliment.
Speaker 2:I know, right. I mean there's a guy you know, pete Lee. Yes, I know him. He's going to be a guest actually. Oh, really, oh. He's a guy Like I've always.
Speaker 2:He carries himself so well and I know, when I first properly abraham down in hackney wick, we were painting and he came past and said, hi, it's really really cool, just really like, genuinely nice person, and we've kept in touch, mostly on instagram. He might pop to an event or might see him on the street, take some great photos. And he messaged a couple of months ago and was like I think I'd like to get one of your characters. He paid me in advance, months past, and timing was just never quite there or you know, just just life and shit. And then he said to me like what are you saying? This is last weekend or the weekend before.
Speaker 2:He came and met me at my mom's place and he got a tattoo of mine on his neck like right, bright and loud there, and the coolest thing about it is that we kind of read each other's energy from the off and we both like the idea of meditation and being grounded, being present. So he asked me if I could draw up a meditative pose for the tattoo, and I've never even painted one before and I tend to draw one on paper and then paint it on a wall and then it gets tattooed. That's kind of my personal flow. But with him I never drew it, I just found the reference picture online and then I drew it on him and then I stabbed it into his neck and now I'm like shit, I kind of need to reverse this and go and paint it and then go and draw it. So he gave me a whole curveball but I loved hanging out with him and again, it's just he's, I think, the most recent one, so it's still fresh in my mind of like the latest follower as such.
Speaker 2:I know it's a weird thing to say, but it's kind of how I feel like having people trust me enough and respect my art enough. It's just something I'll never come down from. Like it's such a nice feeling. It's crazy to think that people know who I am without knowing me, kind of thing. So I feel like this is kind of the first conversation I've actually been able to have freely about me and it's I thought I was actually coming here kind of intimidated because I don't know whether I'll come across well, not that it particularly matters if I'm honest, but just how well received this conversation may be and if I'm honest, I don't even care anymore. I'm just happy to talk because it's it's never happened before. So thank you for the opportunity again thank you.
Speaker 1:I have absolutely no doubt that you're going to come off as an absolute gem because you are an absolute gem. You are and you've got so much wisdom and you've got so many different avenues that you work in and so much to share what I said at the beginning was true. You just have this really incredible energy and I have no doubt that everyone is going to be hitting you up for tattoos.
Speaker 2:Hitting you up for a tattoo. That'd be cool. Always open.
Speaker 1:It really is a compliment when somebody is willing to have your art on their skin. Somebody, a couple of people, have my fox on them.
Speaker 2:Oh cool, they're strangers. Yeah, but they were strangers. I know them now. Now you know yeah.
Speaker 1:But they hit me up and said, hey, I got this tattoo.
Speaker 2:And I burst into tears.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I bet, yeah feeling to have somebody, like something that you've right come out of your brain gone on a wall and now somebody has on their body.
Speaker 2:It's the most beautiful it is. It's like it's deep human connection, quite literally, because you're connecting to their skin. I mean it doesn't get much more deep. I think that's yeah, so it's a very humbling experience and pete lee, by the way is so lovely.
Speaker 1:He's another, he's just one of life's good guys, I know I know I'm the.
Speaker 2:I said this in a recent story on instagram. After the latest wom jam, they pulled in some names that I know of, again connected on insta or the meta, whatever you want to call it, and we've never met. I turned up so late. Big up, lee, because, oh my god, hybrid design. She's got the patience, just like you, of an absolute saint. I got screwed over by the trains, but they started at like nine. I got there at 12, so late, so apologetic, and she was like dude, we'll make magic anyway. So big up her. So we painted this thing.
Speaker 2:People were coming back and forth and I was like, oh shit, you're that guy. And they were like you're that guy. By the end of it, I was like every single time I go out these days, I get to meet my heroes and it's one of those rare scenes where everyone's just so open-minded and willing to incorporate or talk about collaborations or just just generally be there for you. I'm with you. So, yeah, like big up this whole random world I find myself in because it's, it's a, it's a pinch me moment. Quite often, actually, just to be like even being in this room, I'm like fuck, this is so cool, this is my life. This is what I do. I used to be a database engineer. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:I used to like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Before. Like long story short, covid was the catalyst and I know in a general sense it was one of those crazy experiences that the world had to kind of shudder through and we lost some good people along the way and like it, it's had its toll. But prior to covid I was working in a publishing company and it was one of those things that I didn't know any better. So I fucking loved it, like that was me. I just I went from working in a call center doing you know call center stuff, which I didn't mind. I quite enjoyed that as a job too. But then I just moved from that into working with databases and I'd stayed at this company for like four or five years. I had fucking pension and shit. Like I was living that life and I was perfectly engaged with it.
Speaker 2:Covid comes along and I got furloughed for like a year and so I'm getting 80% of my money nothing to spend it on, nowhere to go, nothing to do. I was like fuck it. Maybe I can try my hand at getting back into spray painting, because before I loved street arts like aerosol work, I was big into graffiti Like that was where I sort of came up I. But I was big into graffiti Like that was where I sort of came up. I was just a tagger. I used to like damage. I was my thing, didn't care about the finesse or even can control or anything that you might consider to be important for me now, and I knew a lot of people in the scene. So I was just immersed in that. And COVID comes along. I find myself kind of getting the itch, for some reason, to maybe pick up some spray paint. So I bought some online and it gets delivered and I put up some planks and just started having a go. And some of these early experiments were kind of shit. I mean genuinely like I look back at them and I'm like jesus christ, but it keeps you humble because you're like well, if I've come from there, we're doing something right. So covid was one of those blessings in disguise, because after the whole furlough thing I actually got offered my job back, but it turned out it wasn't quite in the same context.
Speaker 2:And then is when the real problem happened, because I basically lost my mind, I got given this opportunity to work in a different role in the same company and because I just kind of wanted to get back to some new normal, whatever the hell they were trying to call it was like I'll suck it and see. Over the course of the next month I basically had so much pressure from the work and not knowing what to do. I never got no real training, there was no formal handover as such, and the lady that I replaced she even turned around to me and said, like this is a lot for a newbie to take on. And I remember that conversation and I'd be like, no, it's fine, it's fine. I'm always kind of a person where if I can try something, I'll give it my utmost and hopefully I'll be able to succeed, at least to the extent that it pays the bill.
Speaker 2:But yeah, over the course of that month I remember calling up my doctor, having no one else to really speak to about it, and I was like I think I'm having heart palpitations. And he was like I'll just come in, went to see him, and he's like right, you are going through depression, depression. And I'm like, oh, you can tell that I felt sad but I just assumed it was job stress. It's like no, stress kills man. Like it was. Like you genuinely need I'm gonna have to sign you off for a couple weeks, get you to realign yourself, trying to, you know, just center. So I did that. But the crazy thing is because the workload was still there, I was still getting calls from my managers and shit being like this thing needs doing, and I'm like, dude, I've told you I can't. I physically can't work. So the stress remained.
Speaker 2:In the meantime, the only thing that was keeping me happy was going and spray painting, and at this point stuff had kind of opened up again. There were still rules in place, but I was just going on solo missions just to Leek Street, just by myself, with a couple of random cans that I didn't know how to work, and choosing a wall and having a go. I really cut my teeth there. I used to go to Leek Street as a what you might call a fast and furious type street racer guy. I have multiple lives before this, and one of them was I was big into cars, modifying them stupid exhaust, crazy paint jobs, all that junk and so we used to back in the day you could drive through Leek Street, so we used to do photo shoots.
Speaker 2:Wow, this is, this is dope. Never in my life did I think that I'd end up religiously going there to paint and, like, become part of the wallscape, you know. So that was a strange sort of synchronicity. And now, now it's weird because people know my work from there and every time I go there even by myself or whatever I always get someone come past. That's like they've seen my stuff about and, yeah, again, more pinch me moments, man, like my life is just one big pinch me, because I think everything's kind of led to this point and there's so much weird stuff that's kind of diverted me one way but then ended up being very relevant later on that I didn't see coming and yeah it's cool, I'm all right with it.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's quite journey.
Speaker 1:So I'm really sorry to hear that you had that hard time, but sometimes you need those kind of catalyst moments where something breaks you, to make you realize there's actually something greater.
Speaker 2:For you around the corner.
Speaker 1:So you ultimately left that role? How did?
Speaker 2:that all work out Well. It was quite strange because I always got on with the team and, as I said, I loved the job. That's all I knew and that's what I thought I was going to do with myself. It was more heartbreaking for me to say to them that I couldn't do the job because I didn't know what away. That was an unknown for me. I've always kind of had work of some kind, proper or otherwise. So it was me stepping into a complete unknown with very few safety nets and barriers, didn't know how to operate outside of PAYE system.
Speaker 2:My boss called me up drowning my sorrows at one of my favorite pubs in Kingston Woody's shout out, woody's. He called me up. I almost didn't want to pick the phone up because I was intimidated by how that conversation might go. He came so correct. He was like look, I realized that we put a lot of strain onto you as an individual. And fair enough, like you couldn't do it, that's, you tried, you know, whatever. So I'm going to give you like a severance pay.
Speaker 2:I was like thanks, man. Like he basically just gave me a couple of months worth of security that meant I could get back on my feet, float back down to Terra Firma and then figure out my next steps, and that money pretty much exclusively went towards paint and the tools I thought I might need. Like I started to buy all the bougie canvases, all these lovely brushes and marker pens and I was like I'm stocked up now so I'm going to spend the next couple of months. I had a conversation with my mom and my brother and it was one of those ones where they've known that I've flirted with the idea of art and immersing myself in that world since I was a kid.
Speaker 2:I mean, all of my mom's best furniture and stuff was scrawled on since I could walk. I'd find a pen somehow and just damage it. You know, I was always into just tagging, you know, I guess. And then, when the opportunity arose for me to really take the plunge and take this art stuff seriously, I'd tried it before but my heart wasn't in it and I was very disorganised. I still am, absolutely, but my heart's in it now and I think if you've got that, the rest can kind of fall into place as it as it might, naturally.
Speaker 2:But before I was never really so dedicated and, as I say, now I get to wake up and every day I get to create, like it's kind of mad. So, yeah, that that bit of money that I got given allowed me to invest in myself, my craft and, and that's kind of how I developed. That bird-headed lady called cleo, as you know, was purely from going religiously back and forth to Leek Street with the sole intention of working out how to show people that thing. And here we are now. So crazy, what a journey.
Speaker 1:So one of the questions I have for you we'll talk about Beatbox shortly.
Speaker 2:He's a good friend of yours and a former guest of's it, yeah.
Speaker 1:And a former guest of the show Sure yeah. And just a really wonderful person. Just so lovely. So I had the pleasure of interviewing him and it was a brilliant conversation. Featured that as part of my radio show on G-Shock Radio. And it is still, to this day, the interview that I get the most feedback on oh nice I.
Speaker 2:I was flooded with messages about how good it was and it really was such a great conversation. He said he enjoyed that.
Speaker 1:It was really great. We'll talk about him shortly. We had a great conversation after, but it was off mic. Yeah, we were talking about this recent burst of creativity that I'd had recent to that time because, this was recorded a while back.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't know the story, so I've been dying to ask you for the longest time, yeah.
Speaker 1:But he said related to what I just said, he went well, do you know how Ra came up with Cleo? And I was like no how. And he said oh, that's a story for him.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can't tell you that story. He's probably right there, yeah.
Speaker 1:Is it something you're willing to share?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, so you talk briefly about the fact that I come from a spiritual background and there's always been that yearning to remain, you know, involved in that feeling and that that lifestyle. And again, funny enough, cleo came about, which, for those that you don't know, is this massive birdie kind of thing, this figure that I paint. She came about off of the back of a relationship that went wrong and me trying to understand who. I was outside of that situation and I'm going to be completely real, I ended up becoming one of those woman hating just cynicism, like I was just not in a good place, and a lot of the anguish and pain that I was carrying because of not just that relationship but just even the job situation and all this other crap kind of manifested in me, just being a little bit of a ball of anger with no real output, for that just didn't have anything to do with myself.
Speaker 2:Funnily enough, a friend of mine reached out. She invited me to remove myself from london for a little while, and so I took the trip. I figured you know I've got nothing to lose here, so I went away into the wilds of Somerset. I've always been I guess the word you could say is like supporter of getting into your brain, into your mind, into your feelings, and psychedelics are a great cheat code to get to that point, in my opinion, if used responsibly and safely, and all the rest of it. I haven't done that every time, which is why I can say that now, but, um, I had always dabbled with the ether as such and like substances that help you to to get to those kind of places, but there's certain things that at that point I hadn't tried. So dmt was one and in effect I had an opportunity to dabble in a place that was frequented by genuine witches and I ended up immersing myself in a woman-only coven, I guess you could say there was a whole ritual to get to this point.
Speaker 2:But we ended up sharing an experience in which, bearing in mind I was going through this weird, masculine, overly toxic kind of thing, that shit just died overnight and I was greeted in the room by a gigantic and I'm just saying what I what I saw, but a huge, dark, incredibly feminine presence that shook me to my core, and the very top of her was was this skull like a crow skull, right, like a corvid mask type thing? Plague doctor? I guess you could say so. So after the whole session and I was bewildered and scared the entire time one of the people that was in the house with us was like so how did you? How did you feel? What did you? What did you do? Did you meet someone? She said, and I was like yes, I definitely met someone. So she scuttled off and came back with a pad and and a pen and was like draw it. So I rudimentarily still coming down off this whole crazy experience, I just sketched up what, as I say, looked like a woman's body with with a bird's head, and she's looked at me and said I need to take you somewhere. So we ran off down the road. I again completely shocked as to what was actually happening. My feet couldn't keep up with my brain. Um, we went to this bookshop and at the bookshop there's an old guy in there and he's just shuffling around doing his thing. My friend explained to him what I'd shown her and he fucked off into the back without even really acknowledging my presence and came back with a no idea how he knew. He knew and he gave it to me, insisted I keep it. I was like I'll pay you. It was like 10 pound, it wasn't even that much, but he insisted. And I was just in the doorway of this shop having a flick through. I've opened up the book and the random page I opened up was not the spitting image, but I just got this shock like a, like a plasma rifle just hit me in the chest. It was wow of seeing someone else's depiction of the same deity that they must have come across on their trip and I was like fuck, I think I've tapped into something you know. And so this again.
Speaker 2:This happened in late 2019 and then, shortly after this, we started to get murmurs of what sounded like a plague taking place over in the far east and whatever. And before you know it, covid's come down and the world changed entirely. And at this point I was basically drawing what looked like a huge plague doctor thing and people are like, are you okay? Like what is this? And so I have reams and reams. Some of these people will never see the light of day. Maybe, maybe, if I do my own exhibition one day, I'll show a couple of them behind like bulletproof glass, cause these are for me or they're a million pounds.
Speaker 2:So I I just was almost religiously drawing this, this character, this creature, and at the same time, as I said, was going through the situation at work, whatever. And so everything culminated in me using leak street as my big canvas to try and emulate the scale of what I met that day. And I have actually been back to that world to try and meet her again. It's never happened. I've met entirely other fantastical than crazy beasts, but I've never met her again. So it seemed like one of those one off things that needed to happen at that point and I literally and I don't even mean to say this facetiously, but I owe that spirit, that goddess, that creature, literally everything. It pulled me out the brink and, creatively at least, has given me the strength and the commitment and the willpower to actually to work that and to make it my life.
Speaker 2:Now and, as I say, a lot of the people that wear my tattoos it's of her. So I used to have a ritual that every time I did a tattoo. Most people don't know this story, by the way, so you're getting a massive, exclusive thank you for sharing. But, um, when I do the tattoos, I normally explain this story in a bit more detail because I can do it off recording and I often explain to them in depth and the reaction I tend to get usually because I'm just about finishing the tattoo at that point and it's.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, like it's, it's mad to see people's engagement with this thing and how reciprocal. They almost feel the prowess of the creature it's. It's a personal thing, but again, this is where I come back to the buddhism point. I'm doing things for me, but the very fact that they connect and collide in some cases with people is just insane, and I've made my mark like I could die happy tomorrow because over the course of the last couple years really got into grips with who I actually was meant to be all those years ago. And so, how you said, everything goes full circle and sometimes stuff just happens. This is a good living. You know, I've never been poorer, but I've never been happier. That's what I always say. So yeah, here's to art.
Speaker 1:Oh Rob, what a story. And I see now why he said no. No, he has to be the one he could probably do it justice.
Speaker 2:We've talked about it enough and he, as I said, he's he's been a key proponent in actually my experimentation and risk taking and even stupid shit like color schemes, you know, like stuff like that. He might decide on the day, because we never plan our work we've done. I think we're on number 38 coming up of our series. So basically, for for context, I met Beat Fox in Leek Street. People might hate on that place, but to me it's the dungeon of magic. I came up there. I met some of my favorite people there. I've had shows there. Now I'm going to be there later on selling some of my wares to tourists, you know so it's and that's a spiritual place, but it's. It's sacred.
Speaker 2:For so many creatives in london and from other places that come to london, it's like a mecca. So I met pete fox there. We were both kind of at that weird cusp where we were trying to elevate from just being graffiti guys to experiencing and experimenting with shape, form, texture, different wall spaces, like collaborations, and so, funnily enough, we're in pirate studios now, the other side of london, but we it was april or march, maybe in 2022, and I was still very much trying to figure out how to paint properly and big and get the proportions of the body right and do cleo justice as a as a thing. And he had this idea to go and meet up at the pirate studios there and paint this thing. And again, we'd only really met a bunch of times. I liked his energy and his aura and shit, but we didn't know each other that well. We'd never painted together in this context. So he had these huge railway arches.
Speaker 2:We just chose the first one, we started emulsion in the background and shit, and again there was no discipline or no, I'll do this, you do this. It was more like, how do you feel, what do you want to do? Very reciprocal, very like open-minded. So we just started to throw paint at the wall and by the end of it we must have looked back, having spent about six hours just dedicating ourselves almost without talking. We had a bag of people there with us, shout out, never stop, tagging crew all day. They were there kicking back, and we just took out the entire space and made something that I feel like was the start us. We didn't know it then. Obviously that was number one. So it's again another synchronicity that I find myself in pirate, talking about that pirate session, because it it's, yeah, the world. So we did that and now we're on number 38 and we have seen and been and done what I would like to consider some of some of the most interesting artwork that I personally have seen. And I mean, maybe that's an arrogance thing because I make some of this, but it's because, in the raw sense, we shouldn't be doing this. You know, I should probably still be in work.
Speaker 2:It was some catalysts and some momentous situations that have happened, good and bad, that have led me to this point. So I look back at my, even my insta feed. Sometimes I'm like, wow, we did that. Like the fortress thing out in kent that was, I think, to this day, certainly my most extravagant fuck it, let's see how it goes, kind of thing. We took some significant risks that weekend. No one even knew we were there. Like we, we made sure to keep that off the radar till we at least landed on site so there was no risk of anything from police or whatever. But yeah, when we did that and came back onto land the next day, I was just like, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:I think we can safely say we've, we've been doing some stuff. You know, we've been active and the fact that we both get recognized while painting separately, like individually, and people might be like, oh, you're the guys and I'm like we both get it. Sometimes people think that fox is the one that does the plague doctor and sometimes people think I'm the guy that does the calligraphy. I've had people that thought I was a woman because I always paint gigantic women and shit. So it's. It's funny how the law kind of goes on its own little journey as well, without necessarily my say-so, but I kind of like that. It means that the artwork is doing the talking, like it's leaving an impression, which is kind of what we're trying to do. As I said, I'm making marks so that I feel something, and if they connect, then that's just a fucking wicked bonus really.
Speaker 2:And I know he's exactly the same. So, yeah, fucking wicked bonus really. And I know he's exactly the same. So, yeah, that's that's the context that beat fox man, that's my cody man, that's my uh, that's my art, bro, and my real life, bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, big him up you have a really beautiful friendship and your collaborations are incredible, thank you. One of the posts that you shared recently that was so encouraging to me was you showed one of your first pieces together and now your latest. Yeah, oh my, the development that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad you can see it.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you and I was showing my boyfriend and I was like, look at this because, you were always good. If I'd seen your first pieces together I would have been like, oh, that's sick. But seeing it now, yeah the development in both of you is proper, inspiring because it just shows if you put the work in and you practice how good you can get.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's amazing you know what it is personally. Before we even really started to kick it, we both had this intention of doing more art, being more active, being more out there, practicing, experimenting. And it just so happened, as the universe works, that we both found ourselves in the same mind state of being like we can work together. We work very well together, every single one of our pieces. There's never been a plan, like we will sometimes just turn up to a spot we have in mind and be like that'll do, and what colors have you got in your bag? I'm like, fuck, okay, we'll make it work. You know, so it's. It's so spontaneous and best with people where there's little to no direction or almost no like sacrosanct, predetermined thing, like we're not here to expect anything. We just want to have a good time with paint and hopefully have an adventure and an experience and share that with people. I mean, some of our work is absolutely hidden, like you wouldn't find it for love nor money. Some of it belongs in buildings and places that you can't access them or don't exist anymore. So we've been very lucky to be able to document that and share it.
Speaker 2:Instagram while people may hate I don't particularly get on with most social media, but to me it's like a pokedex of my happy moments. It's like a way for me to not only when my memory goes and I can't think about who I was and what, I can look back at this shit and be like, yeah, we did actually have some crazy times. And the very fact that I get to share that and then people like you, good self, tell me that you've looked at it and been like impressed, like it gives me that warm and fuzzy, you know, it just makes me think. Like all of this dedication to the cause, all these sleepless nights and painful days and achy feet and being in my overdraft all the time, it's, it's not going unnoticed and I think that's, that's just a nice feeling. You can't, you can't pay for that anyway, even if people wanted to, you couldn't, you know, and you can't take away what we've done.
Speaker 2:We, we've been there, we've been living it and, as I said, I get to meet my heroes all the time, some of the names that I've met, without name dropping because that can be weird, but I've been so blessed and so fortunate to just be in the right place at the right time, like even with you. We may not have known each other as well if it wasn't for going to Brick Lane or bumping into each other at shows or just having these lovely moments where we can rap about stuff. So again, the fact that I get to now tell you about myself is I don't feel as on spot as I thought I would do. I thought this would come across as one of those like you've got to big yourself off and be really arrogant and shit, but I just don't think I've necessarily got that in me anyway and you've managed to eke out that, that seam of conversation that I rarely get. So I'm very happy to be here.
Speaker 1:It's a privilege for me.
Speaker 2:I'm on the lounge, you know, I'm on the chair's lounge over here because I quite like this.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that you mentioned was the importance of the community and people who uplift you and encourage you and I want to share a little story that I don't know if you even realize that this was really impactful for me when I started painting or when I started doing street art. I won't even bore everyone with that whole story.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're here for it.
Speaker 1:No, I won't. I won't bore everyone. But when I first started I went to this gallery opening it was for street artists. Somebody said to me are you a street artist? I said I'm a wannabe street artist.
Speaker 2:And he said, no, you're an emerging street artist, that's a better word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he said you a word, yeah he said you're not a wannabe, you're an emerging street artist. And I was like oh, I like that. He said it's your branding and your self-belief is really important. Yeah, so don't brand yourself as a wannabe, brand yourself as an emerging artist. And I was like I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then one night I was out for a run because I lived on bricklayne at the time I was out for a run and I just finished very sweaty run and it was late at night and I bumped into you and fox that we've mentioned I'd never met him before and but I recognized you and it's like run. We had a wee chat and it was lovely and then he hopped down. He was so cool, he was standing on a line bike yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, so it's a free ladder oh, exactly, I was like what a legend.
Speaker 1:So he hopped down and came over for a chat and introduced himself and he said the same thing. He said are you a street artist? And I said what I had just learned.
Speaker 2:I'm an emerging street artist.
Speaker 1:And you said something that really changed my mind even further. And you said no, fuck that, You're not an emerging street artist. You put art on the street. You are a street artist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, are a street artist yeah, yeah, literal right, and I was like, wow, that was really powerful actually for me because at that point I was like you know. I'd gone from thinking I want to do this to I'm emerging to do this and you were, like you already do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fuck that, you are a street artist and that changed my mindset on a lot of things I'm really happy that that random interaction could have such a lasting effect, because that's all it is.
Speaker 2:As I said it, when it comes down to connections and doing what you feel is important for yourself, it will resonate like you resonate just by being you like. So when we first met, I remember it very well actually, and I always feel like if you own yourself and own you know your spirit, the right shit will just manifest. Anyway, you know you'll meet the right people, you'll have the right conversations. It's random stuff, like the amount of free paint that I get given by people that I don't know why. Sometimes they're just walking past I'll hear have some cans, but who are you? You're amazing, like let's have more of that in the world. But you put it out and it comes back. You know it's that boomerang effect you're constantly, by being who you are, by creating, by having these conversations, you are, quite literally, you're doing what you already think you want to do. You know you're right. Don't denounce yourself when you're actually at the cusp of your happiness. It's fucking great, keep doing it.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you, that was really great advice for me.
Speaker 2:And it was powerful.
Speaker 1:It really changed my mindset on the way that you see yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because if you are literally doing the thing, you have the right to call yourself.
Speaker 2:Of course it's true, yeah, but.
Speaker 1:I was wondering was there anybody who was super encouraging for you?
Speaker 2:Yes and no. I've always had good people to kind of gauge off and to lift my spirits or to encourage me to do certain things. My parents have been like there and very supportive, no matter what you know, and I've had an ups and downy life. I mean I've never been right on the straight and narrow as such. Up until even recently I've still been in trouble with various factions of the law and whatever.
Speaker 2:I've tried to just stay true to what I know I am and who I know I am. I got pulled in every such direction by teachers, by my folks, by whoever else Friends, good and bad, but they've been just super helpful in allowing me to be who I now feel I am. They always knew I was talented. There's no one in my entire family that can really draw, which I used to say. They used to bully my brother and say he was adopted when he was young and now the older I get, I'm like am I the adopted one Because I don't look anything like them. I have a set of skills that don't seem to have replicated elsewhere in my family wider as well, and I've just. I find so much passion and happiness in being able to leave that little mark or, you know, just paint a wall randomly on a rainy tuesday like that's my happiness. I've done therapy, I've done the official routes in the past for multitudes of things, and while they were good at scratching the surface, even they didn't have as good a conversation with me as we are right now, which says a lot about the institutionalized, formalized practice of self-care and whatever, which is why I say ownership is so important, like if you think you are, then you can be like just just go with it. You know, so I, that was kind of my mentality, but then I've also had, I mean, even beat fox and a variety of other people that have just bigged me up when I needed it. Not that I really thought I needed it at the time, but in retrospect I'm like that was a pivotal moment for me too. Or having people that I looked up to as a kid.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you one story, one really random story. So it was the first ever show that I did and it wasn't even mine, it was just there's a group called not my beautiful house, student-led program in kingston, so my hometown. I was painting up in league street and the lady walks past her, I think, was the curator for this thing. Uh, it's like a collective. She saw my painting of cleo in the tunnel, took a photo I think she found me on instagram, had a chat and then we both realized that we both come from kingston and she said well, we have this student thing. Um, would you like to come and meet me there one day and we can talk about some stuff? And I did so. I took her up on it.
Speaker 2:We met up and then upstairs basically it was in an old pc world, so really fucked up building, very industrial, but I love that aesthetic anyway. So we went upstairs to where they just had like a storeroom and it was kind of like a shanty just of stuff. And she said how would you feel about painting this entire room? And at the time I was so, uh, I was still really really early stages of using spray paint, so I wasn't very confident with my line making or doing specific shapes and things. So I was still doing the general outline of stuff, filling it in and then cutting back, but usually with the paintbrush and using markers to do all the tattoos and the body art stuff that I now do with spray paint. So I was so early in the stages of being confident, but she gave me a massive like boost to do that, so I had two or three days dedicated to paint this place and the downstairs is an actual like gallery for the students, so they have stuff on show. So I'm upstairs masked up and I'm spray painting away.
Speaker 2:the whole place is just fumed out. This geezer, looking fella, comes upstairs with his dead missus straight away, was asking me what cans I was using. So I know he knows about the scene and shit. And it only turns out it's a guy. I won't mention names, but it's a guy that I used to know from when I was young at school, and he was a couple years older and he was like prolific as a graffiti artist in the era.
Speaker 2:Um, he, he'll know that it's him that I'm talking about because he'll listen to this, but I want him to know that I love him a lot and he was one of those few people quite early on that seemed in awe of what I was doing, and I didn't even seem in awe of what I was doing at the time. So having someone from my youth who I looked up to, then seemingly look up to me, was just like soul food, you know. I suddenly was like, ok, maybe I'm in the right place, you know I'm doing the right thing. And we fell out of touch just because of stuff. And then we actually randomly met up in Leek Street about a week ago. Out of nowhere he just turned up and he's happy and he's healthy and he's looking after himself.
Speaker 2:I'm like, fuck yeah, man. So yeah, shout you out, you know who you are, but it's just. Those are the kind of wonderful, beautiful little moments that they happen so often. Sometimes I don't realize it's happened until way after this time. Yeah, it happens a lot and big up my brother as well, like he's been. He's five years younger than me but I feel like he's the grown up out of the two of us. Like he is who I want to be when I'm older. You know, like in terms of he's just settled, he's grounded, he's very like relaxed, he's healthy, he's like just a good dude. And he's been very instrumental, actually, and not only as my younger brother being like interested in my artwork, but also just giving me that low level, almost insignificant to anyone else, but that support of like I believe in you kind of thing and and yeah, that's, that's the kind of shit I treasure.
Speaker 2:And again, it happens far too often for my own good. It's a wonder I can fit my head through the door sometimes because of how much I get filled with good shit. But yeah, there's a load of good people, yourself included. I mean even that pure experience down Brick Lane when you said you were all sweaty. I was like give me a hug right now.
Speaker 2:I was so gross, I don't care, I'm so sorry, don't care, don't like no, that means it was, it was real, you know you was having a good day, you made my day better, so like it's just I'm, I'm all here for that. I love human, humankind. If we do it right, we are kind, and if we again, if we live by that try not to be a prick mantra then it's very easy to actually have a good day every day, as opposed to worrying about this, that the other like if you just people can make people people. And when I talk about the community element, it started at Leak Street and now it's like I mean I've got people down in Bristol, up in Manchester, like suddenly, just because of one or two little interactions, while I've been painting and doing what I love. Now I've got people that love what I do and want me to go to see them and we can do shit there.
Speaker 2:And it's crazy, even in thailand is something that's on my list of to-dos. I want to immerse myself for a little bit, not the whole find yourself shit like, because I know it's been played out, but I've got some opportunities that have kind of organically grown so I can go out there and paint and be warm for a change, which would be nice. And again, that purely came from a guy who got a tattoo of my piece on his leg and he's a scuba diving instructor out there and he talks about me and shit. He's just yeah, I've got, I've got so many wonderful people that I get to call friends, like it's a fucking privilege to be who I am nestled with, the people that I'm nestled with. It's, it's pretty cool. So shout out everyone, everyone that knows me, everyone that loves me. I fucking I'm here for you, I do this for you, you know, but all of that comes from you sharing your work.
Speaker 1:If you didn't have the courage, to go out there and yeah, put it out there, people wouldn't find it and you wouldn't have made all these connections this is true.
Speaker 2:The world, literally, is my oyster. Now I feel like no surface is safe, you know, in the grand scheme, like if I can slap a sticker on it now or if I can leave a little mark there, then I will, because I feel like in a world where we're bombarded by advertisements or we're watched over by the all-seeing eye at every opportunity, especially in London. I think it's important to again take back some control, get some ownership of it, maybe steer the narrative somewhat and just be in the moment. Man, like we get so lost in our worlds and our careers, in our families and stuff. Sometimes you forget who you are because you sell so much of it away to everyone else.
Speaker 2:And I've, quite selfishly just gone inwards in the last year, two years, especially now that I've started to meet so many people and get invited to like I. I didn't know any of the one people up until maybe, maybe when I started meeting you, probably. And now people ask me if I can paint with them and, um, I had to let some people down this year, which is really like I am not that person, you know. So it's it's very sweet that people seem to hold me in the regard they do. I don't feel like I personally deserve it, but I love that what I'm doing is having that impact. I think that's such a special thing and again, I should be in an office right now doing database stuff.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's, it's okay, I'm okay, you know and when you make that very brave step to be saying I'm going to pursue this and this is what makes me really happy and sets my soul on fire.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Was that scary, or did you really believe in it?
Speaker 2:It was scary but I really did believe in it. It's still scary but I still believe in it. I was petrified because I very rarely in fact I never up until that point I always I hate to be crude, but just suckled on the teat of a job like I knew that if I get fucked up that month I've got a month wage coming and I was quite happy to just pillar and post it. The funny thing is I'm still doing that now, but it's all off my own back and there's no boss. There's no, there's no upward stress.
Speaker 2:Shit may happen, but I'm kind of in control of how I perceive it, how I can deal with it. You, you know, every day is learning. I'm constantly figuring out who I am, but I already have the basics sorted. But when I was full-time working and I didn't have a clue I was, I look back at some of the photos of who I used to be across the multiple stages of my rebirth and I'm like, wow, we've come a long way, you know. So I'm okay with that. I think now that I'm in control a bit more and just get these moments where I can have an outburst of creativity and it'd be appreciated. There's no salary. There is no salary that can compete with that. It's a joyous thing and it's so personal, but I get to share it, so I'm okay the fact that you are going out and sharing it.
Speaker 1:Your work is deeply personal, as you've explained. Thank you for sharing that story about cleo.
Speaker 2:By the way, I'm glad I got to do it.
Speaker 1:That was fun yeah, that was amazing. When you put work out, it is really personal. You know, when you're tagging, you're tagging, that's one thing, but when you put out something super personal and then somebody goes over, it or disrespects it. Yeah, how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2:asking for myself okay, okay, so, um, it's still a challenge. I won't lie, it's still a challenge. When I first started going to league street, bearing in mind the entire nature of league street is a constantly evolving place, like most of the legalized spaces in town or anywhere really, um, you don't own the ball you know, you, you own the time that you're at it, but everything else is linear.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's you're there for a moment and it fleets. But I did. I used to get really bummed out because I might go there twice, three times a week and I'd go back thinking, right, I didn't do that piece as well as I thought, so I'll go back over it and it's already been taken out. Or I wanted to just see it with fresh eyes and it's not there anymore. Or even the night after, like, I might happen to be in the area and pass through the tunnel and someone's painting over it right then Back in the day, I used to get kind of frustrated about this. How dare they? This is my stuff, you know. Once you realize that it's a privilege to have those kind of spaces anyway and just to bless that spot is, it's a good feeling as it is. I take my photos now and I leave.
Speaker 2:There's another prominent Buddhist tenet which is just about detachment, or rather not attaching, because they say desire and attachment is how you fuck up. It's the mother of all sins, because if you have these worldly possessions and all this stuff that you consider important, including wall space or the paint that I carry everywhere, then you're setting yourself up for pain and misery and misfortune and all the other negatives that come with it, and I am trying my very best to be as positive and wholesome as I can be. I mean, you wouldn't believe how much pain I've lost over the years. I look back at it and I'm like you silly bastard. I've fallen asleep on the train before, jumped out at what I thought was my stop and it probably wasn't. But my bag has carried on on its merry way and it's just lost to the network. I'm not going to call up lost property, but like, do you know a bag of used spray paint? Have you seen that? Like they'd probably be like right, we need fingerprints, you know? You know, stay where you are. Yeah, I just. You take the good with the bad, you know. And when it comes to spots and that kind of thing, yes, I do I did used to get quite bummed out.
Speaker 2:Now, the only way that I would get bummed out is if someone was to wantonly disrespect a piece. I would hope that some of the stuff, especially the stuff that me and beatfox do, is either so prominent now or so large scale that I would hope someone would take the whole thing. That's way less disrespect. In fact there's no respect. There's no disrespect in going over something fully, but it's when you get these snide types that just might slap a shitty thing in front of it and leave the tops and bottoms with no real finesse, almost like they were just walking on by, and I'm like you could have done that somewhere else. You know like you gain nothing from this, but we have to go fix or, you know, take back a spot, and we've done that a couple of times.
Speaker 2:It's not my finest hours because I tend to feel like, as I said, if it was all gone, then I've had my moment and I've enjoyed that. But I just my personal rules. I've only got like two or three. Number one I never fuck with anything that's a rest in peace or a tribute. I just if it was mine, I'd want someone to do the same thing. If it's someone in this scene. Everyone knows everyone vicariously. I may not know that person or that person who passed away, but I guarantee you some of my friends will.
Speaker 2:So it's about that community uplift, like if we treat each other with the same respect we'd expect back. You're kind of good. That comes back to that whole thing of taking out the whole space, so like, even though I don't necessarily have the money for emotion, I'll beg, borrow and steal it till I can cover something up and start afresh or leave no trace as such, and, yeah, just generally try and be as chill as possible. I find like I've had situations that could have gone very, very sour that I've managed to somehow circumnavigate by helping people to realize that aggression is kind of stupid and no one wins from that, whereas if we actually leave as mates, we're way better off, do you know? I mean so trying to spin things for the negative, for the positive is always at the forefront, and that comes with, you know, people taking space, and I'm like, well, you know what, but I did my thing, I had my photos, and if I didn't, that's my fault, not yours. So self, self ownership, I think that's really what it comes down to.
Speaker 1:It was a.
Speaker 2:I just had to really get over that very fast and I did like I really got over it very quickly because nobody owns the walls this is it, like you said. Yeah, it's your turn. You just take your turn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but it is a lesson and it is something that you have to absolutely, because you do pay stops as well as painting right.
Speaker 2:Again. That learning thing is great and again, having detached yourself from the ownership of that space is part of that learning curve. Like you're both, we're both saying we came out of that. How dare you to? Yeah, it is what it is. You know, like we keep it moving and there's millions of spots in town. Depending how high you want to look, there's plenty of places you can still get out and about. But it's just about being more free. At the end of the day, if I get a chance to express myself, then I will take that. That is my therapy, that is my. It's lying on the chaise lounge. That is how I come to terms with myself that day. I mean.
Speaker 2:One one side note people often ask me about the poses that I choose to put cleo in. Actually, she puts me in them. Poses is usually if. If she's looking a bit disheveled or a bit disgruntled that's probably how I feel. If she's proud and almighty, then I probably had a good day that day, you know. So when I throw her on the wall, it's very much an extension of my psyche and what's going on in my, what I'm trying to deal with or how I'm. It's like a visual representation of the madness that goes on in here.
Speaker 2:So when I met jim and we started to do our thing and someone mentioned the term cosmic downloads, which I cannot stop thinking about when it comes to his calligraphy work around clear, there's such a, there's a real symbiosis with that, the dynamic of those two shapes and forms, because I don't do what he does, he don't do what I do, so we never tread on each other. There's never, as I say, we have entire sessions where, like eight hours will pass no words. And it's very rare, like I paint with all sorts of people and you get ones where you might have to share more of the wall than you might have expected to, or that it's a bit slower or a bit faster even, or there might just be less of a free-flowing dynamic, whereas with fox and a few other people I've always felt that there's less is more approach. We can like almost telepathize this, and I know I'm going to be up there on that ladder and he'll be down there when, as soon as one of us gets off, the other one's going straight back up. It's wild.
Speaker 2:I really want to time lapse an entire piece one day, and then we can just watch it back and laugh at how much we don't talk while going about our business, because that would be quite funny. In fact, we probably should record that and then overlay it with our conversation of watching it, because I think that could be quite good, even just for us to come to terms with what we do. We're always at the wall, not watching it, you know. So it's, yeah, it'd be. That'd be an interesting one for next time what is this term?
Speaker 1:cosmic download? That's an interesting one.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful way of explaining something that exists out there that you can channel in in a really raw sense. That's how I met cleo was from something that probably already exists in the primordial soup of universe, but it came to me. I experienced it as if it was completely real, and then my life now is kind of dedicated to bringing other people into that. You know. So the cosmic download is effectively a way to almost make a language out of the unknown, and I I see that in what fox does. I think he's very good at having a negative space and making it positive with information and sequence and shape and patterns. Um, there's a big thing in buddhism and actually in a lot of those kind of those kind of cultures, where mandalas and pattern forming and fractals and like real core information, mathematics really is, uh is, organized and structured in such ways.
Speaker 2:I was obsessed with mandalas when I was a kid. Even now I still will find my times. I mean all the tattoos on cleo's body, that's all mandalas. They're just rounded to the shape of her. So I still try and keep some of that stuff that's relevant to me in a lot of the pieces, and then I might go completely over and just draw a literal Buddhist hand with an eye in it, because, fuck it, I like that stuff. But people have asked me before like what's your symbology? What's the thing I'm like it's? It's way easier for you to look at it and come up with your own explanation. In a way, I kind of like that there's a bit of a mystique around what, especially with people that don't know who I am. So this is why I'm trying to keep my cards relatively close, but I'm also so happy to be here that I want you to know everything you know, so I'm more than happy to overshare. Tell me if I am but.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:But I feel like there's something about the anonymity of. You know, when I was a kid, the thing that really spurred me on into an appreciation of not street art at all but graffiti was like how the fuck did they get up there? You know, you'd see some shit on the top of a tower block and you'd be like, did they abseil? Did he have a jump pack? Or how the fuck and it was always that heaven spot reaches and like silly things that you'd almost create that narrative. That person is so dedicated to what they want to do just to put their name up there and risk it all. You know, I still try to instill even a bit of that. I'm probably more safe now. I mean, we did that fort thing. I can't swim, so when the tide comes in, I'm looking at Jim like bro, this could go one or two ways. You know what I mean. We could do it and get back to land and be sick, or it could go that way, luckily, obviously touch wood and shit.
Speaker 2:But I think in the back of my head, through a lot of my missions and my journeys and my general situations, I'm always thinking about the negative. I've I've had a tumultuous relationship with death and and pain and shit. So, like I know it's never too far away and I'm very I'm comfortable with my mortal mortality, as it were. I used to shy away. I used to have sleepless nights about this shit. When I was a kid I used to ball like because the realization that there's people that I know and love that ain't gonna be here forever is kind of hard. And then when you go through this through maybe no choice of your own, but you might experience something like a bereavement or whatever, and you're like shit, ok, that does happen, perhaps without your say so or any control whatsoever. So there's things that happen that are greater than me. But if I can leave that little mark or have a little bit of fun with a few friends in a random corner of east london, I'm all right with that. You know that's that's me living at my full potential.
Speaker 2:It may be absolutely wild and weird to most people, like the average passerby is probably thinking that we're ruffians or strangers, you know, but but that's I'm living when I'm doing that and I think hopefully that comes across especially to you, mom, because I know you still wonder my life, but it's the only time I really feel like I'm alive. I never leave home without paint. Now, even if I know I ain't going to paint, I might still paint. You know, there's always a chance that I can find somewhere. So yeah, cosmic downloads. That was a rant, no that was so beautiful.
Speaker 1:Well, first of all, those super high up pieces that you see that you're like how did they do that? How did they get up there? That's what I really love seeing. This whole podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm probably going to be a broken record saying this, but the whole purpose of doing this was to understand what drives us to create why is it we take the risks that we do to do what we do and to potentially get in trouble with the law and to be chased out of somewhere or whatever it might be experiences that I'm sure everybody's had. You've just kind of nailed it.
Speaker 2:You just said that's when you feel most alive yeah, I feel so and I think I think most of us, especially in the creative realms, we we can say the same thing, but then again, you could, you could overlay that to actually pretty much anyone. Imagine imagine being like a wall street broker and you're just about to leverage like a fucking silly deal. You must feel that electricity in the same sort of way, but just in a very different environment, and I think it's tapping into that base level excitement, thrill. It's such a I was going to say low frequency, but it's probably actually quite a high frequency feeling to be able to be nestled right in the mix of, of survival to an extent, you know. So with them heaven spots and shit, being able to you know, I'm not being funny, but to people that track, tread and like get onto the train lines and shit, the adrenaline that goes through your body, knowing that you ain't meant to be there and at any time there could be a multitude of things that fuck your day up.
Speaker 2:You know, even when me and fox do some of our missions, we've been in some very strange and wonderful places. We once painted at a rave that went on from like we was there from like eight till about eight. So we did a night shift and, uh, yeah, like some of the places that we find ourselves and the stuff that we do is for nothing else except for that living on the precipice and feeling as alive as you can at that moment and it just so happens that cans are the conduit. That's. That's how I make my, my statements, how I feel it, and every time I step away I still get misses.
Speaker 2:You know, don't get me wrong most of the shit on my instagram is carefully curated and I've been like right, that is worthy of the grid. But there's a lot of stuff that don't make the cut because it just didn't hit right or maybe I didn't get a good photo. You know, but everything's learning, man, every time I touch a can I feel like okay, today I want to try and perfect that thing that I didn't quite get right, or how do you make it not spit so much? Or you know, whatever. There might be so many different ideals and situations, but it's the. It's the.
Speaker 2:It's the fight I think to to improve, and it's so unique to creative individuals or athletes or people that really use their mind, body and soul to do something that should elevate humanity to an extent you know maybe that's a bit of an aggressive statement, but we're right there, you know, like people, people, people see our stuff that then go home and don't create, and the amount of conversations I have with people that, like, I wish I could do this, wish I could draw, and I'm like bro.
Speaker 2:I said that once you know, everybody starts somewhere. And I think, because of this instant gratification while we live in now, it's so easy to get caught in the rapture of, well, I can't do that because I can't do it like they do. But just being able to do it at any level is is a massive start. You know, like, and my brother's big into fitness. Every year he's been pissing me off by buying me like, oh, here's a fucking marathon to run, and I'm like shit bro, like I can't, I don't do this, I'm not a fucking runner, I'll still try, you know, and I'll still give it a go. And I surprised myself because, again, I'm right on the edge.
Speaker 1:I saw the other day that you casually ran a 10K.
Speaker 2:No, that was a half. Sorry, it was a half. His first gift I use inverted his first gift to me was a 10K across Battersea Park, which was tough, but I did it. And then the next one was a half, so that was 12 and a bit miles and I was very arrogant. So I woke up pretty cash. I actually went to the train station. I had two spliffs on the way, a couple of coffees, that was my breakfast.
Speaker 2:No fucking breath work, no stretches. I don't have any clothes that don't have paint, so even my running gear is covered in paint. It was mile eight that I was on and my leg started to wobble and the guy, nathan, who I was running with, he's, like, versed in this shit, so he kept me going. You know, there was points at which I was like I am gonna die, like right, right now. Yeah, cool, live on the cusp, I'm dying here like I'm walrus road. Yeah, this is me, I'm, I'm off. But he, he spurred me on, we did it, and then again, it's just one of those things I can say I've done, I can tick it off and, uh, I think I've just got this.
Speaker 2:When I worked at my old company, it was one of them. Things on my job didn't go home with me. I didn't have to worry about stuff outside of work hours, so I didn't. I was quite placid, maybe a little bit um, stale. I didn't do anything and really draw and the shit like that. I just kind of existed, but I was okay with that.
Speaker 2:You know, now I'm like every day I want to challenge whatever it might be like I. I'm always so empty. I'm more empty now than I ever thought I would be, but it's because I'm just here to absorb all the goodness and all of the lessons and all the fucking cool people that I have the pleasure of knowing. So I'm, I'm, yeah, it's, it's a privilege being who I am now. It's like, as I said about the rebirths, I feel like I've had so many different times when I could have not been here anymore or that I've had to change my direction or whatever, and it's all led to me being in this room with a microphone staring at me and like someone really cool that I respect, that I get to just discuss who I am and I keep wanting to check myself and be like are you?
Speaker 2:Are you saying what? You should be saying this, but it's actually, if it's just you and your story, then it's completely correct, right, you're allowed to be that we live in a very weird society where everything's kind of it's got to be controlled and almost, um, manicured. And, as you can probably tell, I don't do that anymore. I just I've decided that if I can just be me and do me, yeah, I got that homeless chic, but I'm all right with that. You know, this is who I am now and I'm I've come to come to terms with it. So is my mom actually so big, I rough and all?
Speaker 1:so interesting what you say about tracking yourself, Because these conversations what I do, I'm just genuinely interested.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it comes across. It does come across and from the stuff that I've heard, I've always, as I said, I wanted you to be the first one that I do this with, to actually delve a bit into here. Like, you're throwing me ideas and I'm just kind of running with them. I'm not censoring anything. I've not been in the interview seat for a long, long time so it's really quite sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I absolutely agree, right, and what I'd love to hear more about is, obviously, you've had quite a journey and I'd love to hear where do you want to take this? What do you want to do? What's the dream?
Speaker 2:okay, that's a good question. There's a couple of things that immediately strike me as the next logical step. So obviously, me and jim are going to continue to do our thing till we can't no more. I think that's pretty much set in stone. But from my perspective I feel like, uh, where I've spent the last couple of years really focusing on who I am and what I do and how I do it, what I'd love to see and this was actually something I had hoped to do this year for my birthday or around the November time was to set up an exhibition of my own. I think I'm at a point where I have grown enough, learned enough, experienced enough, been to enough other shows.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you an interesting side note way back when, before I was even really involved in art stuff, I used to always draw, and again, mandalas and stuff like that was quite prevalent in my old work, and one day a friend of mine said would you like to join a couple of us to go and see an exhibition? Actually it was in shoreditch. It was a guy called phlegm. Now you will probably know who that is, but it's. It's a show that I didn't know existed by an artist. I didn't really know a great deal about, but I was kind of keen to maybe get out of my bubble and experience something kind of immersive and interesting. So we went to this random room in the middle of wherever it was in Shoreditch High Street or thereabouts and it was all dark, was all dark and the artist phlegm had, basically out of like wood and chipboard, built these huge insane structures of characters of his with just form and fucking. It was just insane. I remember coming out of that and saying, holy shit, how cool would it be to one day have a space that is my mind that people can walk through. That was always after I went to his specific show and again, this must have been like maybe 2017 just goes to show. I mean, it's like it's stuck in there. It really stayed and I have fond memories of that.
Speaker 2:So I kind of feel like the next logical step whether or not this actually materializes but what would be really cool is to find a venue or a space where I can actually kind of build it so they come, you know, somewhere that I can leave my mark in a more permanent, semi-permanent state for people to actually go and walk through and learn a bit more about me without having this kind of conversation. Like my hope would be that by the end of that walk, people will know a bit more about rock without necessarily having seen me there or spoken or even read the plaques or any of that stuff. If things are fortuitous, then that's what would happen soon, but I don't want to put a time limit on it because that seems to become stress quite quickly. So I'm very much like just letting it flow and if that happens, then fucking sweet. But if not, then I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:Like, as I say, every day I get to learn new stuff and I get to work with new people and I've had some pretty cool commissions this year which have actually led very nicely onto the other commissions. So everything feeds in and I just want to keep doing that. I really don't care how long I've got, I just want to keep doing that. If I get to wake up every day and do this, you know, I mean I'm all right, man, like I can't stress it enough like I cannot see a life without creation now and being creative. And yeah, the people, the connections, man, like the stuff that I've been able to be exposed to and be part of have been fucking grounding as fuck.
Speaker 2:So sorry for swearing, but it's just. It's just. I can't put into words that well, so I swear, but yeah, man, it's just more of the same. Really, I'm more than happy to just keep doing the shit we do. I'll tell you one so me and Fox are trying to find new spaces to do more crazy out there extravagant road trip type things stay overs and shit. So look out for more of those. I think before the year's out we're gonna hit 40, so we've got like two or three more spots that we're gonna do some stupid stuff at and yeah, so watch out for that. That's, that's it. Apart from that, man, I just want to be happy, as healthy as I can, um, and keep keep meeting cool people, man. That's what.
Speaker 1:That's what makes me happy I had goosebumps when you were I was just so passionate I actually got goosebumps. Oh, I love you for that, thank you it's so beautiful to hear somebody truly loving life and loving what they do, like so many people seek that and don't actually find it so, yeah, that was a lovely answer.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest like I'm still unhappy, don't get me wrong. Like waking up and knowing that you have to hustle hard just to get some food on the table. It's not easy, right? But at the same time I just I don't think I'd change it. I know it sounds stupid, but short of becoming some kind of crazy million overnight which I don't think I'd do anything worthwhile with anyway, I'd probably just squander it on paint and fun shit. You know like I'd just have a party. Yeah, realistically, it's artist life.
Speaker 2:They never teach you this shit about having to become your marketing guy and your business manager and your finance advisor and all that shit all wrapped into one. I'm just one small guy with ridiculous dreams. It's tough man, but at the same time I've got such a good network of people that will. Even even to have this conversation means that I know I'm okay, you know like. And then people Fox, who's very important to like. He tries to keep me interested in the business side, and I've got people that are, like, involved in marketing. So they kind of tell me things to do, little nip tucks that can help me to maybe break new ground or get more followers or whatever.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to do things organically. I'd never, I'd never pay for likes and shit. I know, and shit I know people have done that. I I just think I'd rather you were here, because you wanted to be here, you know. So I ain't gonna chase things, that ain't meant to be for me, but I'd rather genuine, wholesome, real life connections. You know so, when I meet people in the street and then we end up doing some cool shit like this, I'm like well, that all worked out, well, didn't it? You know, like it's fucking great. So that that's, that's. That's all it really comes down to, um is it's knowing that, yes, life can be tough, but it's seeking those little moments of happiness. You know, when you, when your soul does a little happy dance, you're like I made it today, like I'm okay. Yeah, more of this piece god, this is so good.
Speaker 1:Time is coming far too fast. We've mentioned quite a few times the fort that you and Fox did. And that was so cool, especially knowing that you couldn't swim. How did you find the fort? How did it all come about? What inspired you? Tell me as much as you can, right.
Speaker 2:So, as concisely as possible, I stayed and looked after Fox's cat in January and he had been talking about we watch a lot of urbex stuff and he found this place. It was all a case of it's in theory, but we like the idea of going there and we had. Actually this is the only one that we planned because we knew if we got there and the tide was out, we'd have about an hour to get over there and once the tide comes back in, we ain't we're stuck. So he arranged for hammocks, we got a dinghy, we planned all the pre stuff and then we drove out to this place in medway, right on the mouth of the thames, and we found it. We saw it. When we clapped eyes on it for the first time, we were like home and it was fucking like. That weird feeling was like we're going there, you know, and it's 500 meters out to sea and I can't swim. So we finally managed to get halfway. We've dumped all our stuff halfway, put our bags up there. I went back to get the dinghy, which was full of stuff we weren't using. It was just full of stuff. Fox had taken his shoes off and shredded his feet on the corals and the rocks and shit, but we managed to get there.
Speaker 2:On the way back up to the fort, the tide started coming in quick, so we had about 10 minutes. We managed to get everything up, and every time we paint we always bless the space, so we always either burn an incense or we get some kind of something that we can have a moment contemplate. And then, yeah, we just attacked. We initially wanted to paint the side of it but because of where the tide came to, but that ain't happening, it will just wash off. So we ended up ascending up into the building and then we saw one wall and as soon as we saw it, we were both like, yeah, that'll do so.
Speaker 2:As I say, we, we we very much like fluid with our anticipation. We know what we're doing, but that's about it. There's no plan, even loosely. I said to him I think I've got some grays and maybe some pink, and he's like, yeah, I got some white and black, fuck it, we'll make that work, you know so there's never a plan, but I love that. I love the fact that we can just fuck it. See what happens, you know, that makes it more worthwhile because there's no stress.
Speaker 2:Then, if it was ever to be overtly planned and overtly this, then we probably end up hating each other behind the end of it because we're on each other's toes or that ain't going to the schedule and the schematics. So the fort was one of those. For me, it was a breakthrough because not only did we prove that we could survive that and I didn't need to learn to swim immediately but also looking back and seeing the reception we've had has been so grounding, like people that didn't realize we stayed over until I put up the BTS shots yesterday and then were like, oh, there's a hammock, I'm like that's our bedroom yesterday. And then we're like, oh, there's a hammock, so I'm like that's our bedroom, man. So you know winging it, but we're having a good time doing so. That is a proper mission yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my legs still hurt. Yeah, that was a proper mission. So, as we're coming up sadly short on time, I swear, I could stay in this room all day same.
Speaker 2:Actually, I'm enjoying this, thank you it's been great.
Speaker 1:So one thing that I would just love to touch on before we go is the fact that, sadly, street art graffiti creatively expressing yourself is unfortunately on the wrong side of the law yes, apparently sadly and how do you feel about the fact that you can get into serious trouble just for expressing and just for creating what we consider art, what other people consider vandalism?
Speaker 2:Well, I have been in serious trouble for it. I'm not going to go into any details because it still hurts man, but yeah, I've been at the very forefront of that fuckery there and had to learn the hard way there and um, had to learn the hard way. So there's inherent risks in the stuff that I do, the stuff that we as a collective of people do. But at the same time I figure no risk, no reward. No, if you're not willing to put yourself out there, that might even come down to like asking for a raise at your job, like there's still a risk but there could be a reward to it, you know. So I kind of feel like that plays out in everyone's lives anyway. But it's important to stay humble, stay consistent and also, if I'm, if I'm honest, if you can flirt your way out of anything, if you've got away with words, or if you're able to again come back to the positive rather than the negative, if ever I've had an issue with someone or with the law, whatever, if I just try and be as nice about it as possible nine times out of 10, you can get away with it. You know, like at least it can lessen the blow because people are much more reciprocal if you just simmer down a bit, you know. I think it's important to catch yourself out sometimes, rather than becoming all aggy and, you know, swinging out Like. Sometimes it's important to step back, take stock. It might happen in the moment, but if you come at things from a place of love, then you're more likely to succeed. That's how I feel.
Speaker 2:If you come at things with an entitlement, or I'm allowed to do this, or I should be here, or you know, fuck you, whatever. It's probably going to go badly, and I've been that person as well. I started off being that person. I had a very angry street when I was younger. I had some lyrics in a rap song about mine that that I talked about being negative and coming from a spiritual background, but then just fucking that off and being an arsehole for ages, and that's who I was. But now I'm like you know what? If I approach things with a bit more of an understanding of other people and expectations and requirements and the status quo, then I'm better equipped to deal with anything, any occurrence, you know, except for swimming.
Speaker 2:But uh, yeah, I try and stay humble, I think. I think that's really the obvious thing to do. I will always have immense love and respect for those that do batter the streets or do the stuff that you ain't supposed to do, because that's as I said, that's right at the cusp. You know, I do things sanitized now because you ain't supposed to do, because that's as I said, that's right at the cusp. You know, I do things sanitized now because I ain't looking to go jail or nothing stupid for for painting, whereas if you can enjoy that and come away from it, then fucking fair play, you know, but I'm trying to. As I said, if I want to do the gallery stuff for one of these, I need to be here for that. So I'd kind of like to go the right way and treat the world as the playground that it is, not get caught up in the rapture too much and just make some dope communications with people. That's all it's about really Connection. So, yeah, that's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:You've just mentioned lyrics in a song and I didn't realise until your birthday last year when I went, when I went down league street yeah, we were hanging out, there was loads of people around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I met your friend I think her name was jessica.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah shout out jess, yeah, absolutely lovely girl and she said she was a musician yes and she said that you were a musician and I was like what I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm not anyone that says that is lying to you. Um, I'm not a musician. I just I've always loved rap music. That was the soundtrack to my, to my youth. That's how I grew up, always had something to say, never had any ways to say it. But then I've always been fascinated with language and the vernacular, the way to communicate with a personal edge, and for me I I came up with grind music, you know, like garage and shit.
Speaker 2:So for me that was like I started off in that fast-paced kind of aggressive, kind of leery, and now, just like my art, I talk about who I am and what I do and that might be quite put people at unease because of how you know open I can be, but I think it's important to understand where you've been, to know where you're going, and I think if I listen back to some of my songs not that I do that I ain't got anything recorded, but if I was to, or if I rap something at a like a low-key open mic night or something, and sometimes I remind myself that I have come a long way and I have got a bit of a story and a journey and, um, I do actually get some surprisingly good feedback from other rappers as well, which means I must be doing something. Okay, I just again. I think communication and the freedom to express yourself is like it's such a lost art in a world where everything's so quick and the turnaround on stuff and nothing seems to be as weighty as it used to. You know, maybe that's just me being old, I don't know, but I feel that everyone's just so so fast-paced, especially in london. So if you, if you have a chance to write some lyrics about yourself or your journey or whatever, or go and paint on a wall or draw in a pad, that is you being unequivocally you. That's just you.
Speaker 2:Having a moment to yourself in private doesn't have to be shared. As I said, I've got a whole pile of shit on my table, that is just. They will never see the light of day, but that is a part of my story. It's still important that I fucked up, because that's how I don't fuck up. So I think, um, the music side has taken a massive back step. My boy Seko he's also a graffiti writer and he's also a fucking sick producer, and we've been sitting on this project of about 10 songs for about 10 months and I'm getting to this point now where, when it's getting colder, we may just have to knuckle down and release some stuff. Christmas number one here we come, baby, I don't know, but I just want to have a moment to put some good, wholesome, 90s style boom, bap, rap out there.
Speaker 2:I think that'd be fun, so keep your eyes and ears peeled.
Speaker 1:Watch this space. Well, speaking of a space for people to watch Ra, I would love for you to share your socials where people can go and find you and see your mad adventures.
Speaker 2:An eye out for these future releases.
Speaker 1:Where can people find you on socials?
Speaker 2:So I think on every channel I'm just at all seeing. So a, l, l, s, e, e, I n g full stop rah. So my full thing is all seeing dot rah. Um, I go by the name of rah, so you can just call me that or that weirdo with paint, or whatever you want to call me, I don't mind. Um, but that's how you can get me on most things. I used to have tiktok. It still exists, but that platform scares the living shit out of me. So, um, mostly instagram is where I'm active and I feel safe there, so I'm probably going to maintain that. So, yeah, please feel free to connect. I always connect back because, uh, that's what I'm here for, man lovely.
Speaker 1:Well, this was a really special conversation, right likewise like I said, this was months in the making. Yeah, it's actually nine, nine, ten months really yeah, since we first wow since we first agreed yeah so I think it was nine or ten months, and then we are both extremely busy yeah, yeah and I kept pushing for it yeah, you did.
Speaker 2:Honestly, if you guys don't understand she's you have the patience, man, like I would have given up on me ages ago. But, um, it's been so nice to be able to talk to you. You're one of those people that from the off I knew I feel comfortable to anything. There's nothing off the table and all you've done is bring that to this room with microphones and it should be intimidating to me. But it didn't feel that at all. So I really appreciate you holding space and being persistent and getting me in this room, because it's been genuinely really humbling, really nice thank you so much, and I just really knew it would be a conversation with having.
Speaker 1:I just knew it would be a really good one and it has been special. So thank you so much for your time. I'm so glad we made this happen and I cannot wait to see all of the incredible things that are coming for you. If anybody has an exhibition space or a show space, please hit ra yeah, way to the better as well yeah, and I can't wait to see all of the wonderful things that are coming your way.
Speaker 1:So that is it for today. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you, and please be sure and check ra out on socials. Bye, there, you have it. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of this is disruption. If you enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to follow the podcast and never miss an episode. You can find us on all major podcast platforms Apple Podcasts, spotify, etc. Stay connected with us on social media. You can find the podcast at this Is Disruption pod on Instagram and TikTok, and you will find updates and snippets of upcoming shows. Until next time, keep challenging the status quo, embracing your creative spirit and be brave. Go and create. Thank you, and see you in the next episode.