One Thousand Gurus Podcast

#6: Linden Reid - Working at Blizzard, Pursuing Community and Artistry, and Embracing Change

• J.R. Yonocruz • Season 1 • Episode 6

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What happens when a video game developer transitions into education and embraces personal passions? Discover the inspiring journey of Linden Reid, who shifted from working with gaming giants like Blizzard and EA to becoming an adjunct professor at UC Irvine. Learn about his early interest in coding through Neopets, his determination to make it in the game development world, and the pivotal moments that shaped his remarkable career. Linden's story is a masterclass in balancing the technical and creative sides of game development, making it a must-listen for aspiring developers and educators alike.

Beyond gaming, we explore Linden's passion for K-pop dancing and other artistic pursuits, revealing how personal interests can enrich professional life. Reflecting on themes of identity, adaptability, and living in the present, Linden offers philosophical insights and personal stories that resonate deeply. Whether you're fascinated by game development, education, or the intersection of passion and career, this episode provides a treasure trove of inspiration and practical advice.

Guest Bio:
Linden Reid is a video game developer and educator with over 10 years of experience making games. Having previously worked as a Software Engineer on mobile games at Blizzard and EA and as a Creative Director on his own indie title that received a grant from Netflix, he's now entering the academic sphere as an Adjunct Professor of game development at UC-Irvine this fall 2024.

Socials/Links:
Twitter / X: @outofmanna_
IG: @outofmanna_
Website portfolio: lindenreid.com


Episode Links / Resources:

One Thousand Gurus Podcast:
Everyone has a compelling story to tell with insights we can all be inspired by. J.R. Yonocruz is a self-improvement blogger, relationship coach, and serial hobbyist with a passion for learning. He interviews unique guests from various fields to distill the strategies, habits, and mindsets we can use in our own lives. Each “guru” has a chance to give the audience a peek into a new world.

www.onethousandgurus.com
Instagram: @OneThousandGurus
TikTok: @onethousandgurus
YouTube: One Thousand Gurus Podcast
Email: onethousandgurus@gmail.com

J.R.:

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of 1000 Gurus. Today's guest is Linden Reed. I will read Linden bio. Linden Reed is a video game developer and educator with over 10 years of experience making games. Having previously worked as a software engineer on mobile games at Blizzard and EA and as a creative director for his own indie title that received a grant from Netflix, he's now entering the academic sphere as an adjunct professor of game development at UC Irvine this fall, 2024.

J.R.:

So, as usual, we had a very wide-ranging and enjoyable conversation. Linden gives us an industry insider look into getting into video games and navigating that space. Then he pivots through self-awareness and took a turn there. We then talk about the importance of artistry and leveraging that and community within your career, and then we tied up with identity detachment and a little bit of philosophy, which we found out that we're both huge fans of, and lots of great takeaways and overall, again, just a very fun conversation. So, without further ado, hope you enjoy this episode with Linden Reed. Hello and welcome everyone. Today's guest is my friend, Linden Reed. Cool, cool. Thanks for joining me and being on the show. I really appreciate it.

Linden:

Yeah, thanks for joining me and being on the show. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for inviting me Cool.

J.R.:

So let me just start off with how I know you and stuff like that. So I know that you worked in the video game industry and we met at a K-pop studio where you took one of my classes and then eventually you became one of my private students and then we learned dances like BTS, monsta X, nct, etc. And then I know that you also do some other art things like photography, and now you're making the pivot into from the industry to education. Is there anything else you want to add to that?

Linden:

No, that's about it. Yeah, unless you just want to get up and do one of the dances. Yeah.

J.R.:

Maybe I'll link to one of our dances together.

Linden:

Oh my god, what an introduction.

J.R.:

Yeah, don't worry. Like I said, if you've, if my audience has listened to it this far, everyone from season one, they're all dancers, so it's gonna be a fun treat. So, yeah, anyways, I think we we can just start off and go straight into first topic. So I'm curious, you have an interesting background, I think, and maybe you can kind of walk us through like where you're from, what growing up was like and then how it led you to your current career path.

Linden:

Yeah, I was born and raised in Houston, texas. I'm not from California but it keeps sucking me back because of my career. I've kind of always been an artist. I think that's like been one of my career. I've kind of always been an artist. I think that's been one of my core things just growing up. Yeah, I lived in Houston up until my senior year of high school. I moved to Austin and then I went to Louisiana State University for college and I studied computer science and I knew from the second that I was going into school that I wanted to do games Because I mean I had been a huge gamer my whole life. I actually like I started with my interest in like, not just like playing games but like the development side of things. On Neopets as a kid. Are you familiar with Neopets?

J.R.:

I am yeah.

Linden:

Okay, fantastic. Yeah, just in case people aren't, that was like a web game, like a pet game, where you like could collect these different like fantasy pets and like take care of them, and it also had an aspect games don't do this anymore. This was like way back in the day, really really aging me here, but you could like code like your profile, you know like like you could on like MySpace to like customize it, and so that's where I got started like coding and then I ended up like taking some CS courses in high school, some computer science courses following that, and I just like got really into the game development like side of things because of like a YouTube channel. So basically just like born and raised in Houston technically, but very much on the internet, and that's what like got me into not just like gaming but like the game development side of things. Yeah, I studied computer science in college and just like from then had been like laser focused for like a really long time on like working in games.

J.R.:

I want to backtrack. So you worked at Blizzard and that's awesome, but we'll get there. How did you decide, like, what aspect of video games that you studied and or wanted to work into? I think for someone like me who's never worked in the, that's false. I did used to work at a video game company my first job.

Linden:

Oh really, I didn't know that I was like wait a minute, Memory unlocked.

J.R.:

So for those of us most of us who haven't worked in video games, there's obviously a lot of aspects to it. So then, like, where do you start? I'm sure there's a lot of people out there like I would love to work for Blizzard or Riot or whatever and I like video games and I want to work in that. So, like, how did you choose that?

Linden:

Basically what I understood from like. There was like a YouTube channel that I was watching and a lot of these videos are still up. It's called Extra Credits. They posted a bunch of like behind the scenes, like talking about like the like development side of things, and I think that's where I got like a preliminary like understanding of what even like goes into making games.

Linden:

If I remember correctly, what I understood at the time is that, like the two main things that you could be studying in college to go into games which this a little bit of an oversimplification, but it's still pretty good advice is either like art or like computer science, and there are a lot of other aspects to like you know working at a game company, like you could be studying like business and marketing or you know something else along those lines, but on the development side of things, like those are pretty much like the way to go, and there are also like game development degrees now, but there were like fewer back then, cause this was like for some context. Also, this was like 10 years ago, like I started college in 2012. So, oh my God, it was over 10 years ago. Yeah, you are old. I actually just turned 30. It was my birthday like a couple of weeks ago. Yes, happy belated birthday, by the way, thanks.

Linden:

But yeah, at the time I, like I, I had always been an artist and I loved drawing. I think, to be really frank, the reason that I did computer science instead was because I was a little bit shy about doing art like as a profession and I was also very interested in, like, the technical side of things. So I was like this seems like a good way to blend both my artistic and technical interests on the good side of the coin. And the flip side of the coin was I was also just very shy about pursuing art as the act of making 3D or 2D art or something like that as a career. But I was also definitely very genuinely interested in kind of blending the two. So that's where that came from?

J.R.:

Okay yeah, so then studying computer science, and then how did that lead you into? Well, I mean, there's a lot of steps here that we're gonna go to.

Linden:

But so what was the next step after that?

J.R.:

so you, graduated computer science. So then, where did we go from there?

Linden:

yeah, actually even before I graduated, um, I learned about a like I, so I had like taught myself unity, which is a really popular game development engine. It's like a really important tool for making video games before I had started college and so and this is highly unusual and not necessary at all I did that. And then my freshman year of college, I learned that there was actually an indie game studio in town in Baton Rouge, louisiana, and I applied for like an internship there for the first summer of college. I will say like that's really like unusual, and most people don't get like college internships until at least like their summer after their like junior year. There are like college internships and if you're really interested and you're in college, that's definitely something you should be looking for.

Linden:

And then that led to me, like you know, being like highly qualified to get an internship at EA my final summer of college. And then that internship led to the first job that I had right out of college, which was at EA in the Bay Area, which started the long saga of me getting sucked into California that I mentioned earlier. Yeah, I kind of always wanted to like live in Austin, like. I lived there like my senior year of high school and I thought it was really cool, but I just kept getting hired California.

J.R.:

So here I am. Yeah, you're.

Linden:

You're slowly becoming one of us yeah, I know, I actually just got like my California driver's license yesterday. I was supposed to do that a really long time ago, but I just couldn't let go. But I had you had your your Texas, yeah, yeah or uh like, yeah, yeah, it didn't expire until my birthday this year, so that's why I just I only just got my california driver's license, so I love it yeah, okay.

J.R.:

So then sucked into california job at ea and so like, what was that experience like? And then, and then how did that lead to the? The next few things yeah.

Linden:

so, um, ea, ea definitely was like a decent job. I wasn't like super interested in the game that we were working on, which is extremely common if you work in the arts and entertainment Like, I think you actually have to get pretty lucky to work on a project that you're actually very personally like interested in. But I absolutely loved working in games. I got started like as a technical artist, which was a really interesting route that I went on, which is a position that is the person that kind of like bridges the gap between, like programmers and artists on a video game development team. It's, you know, a pretty important role because it's such like a, you know, cross, like a cross team, collaborative like industry. And you know from my like initial interest being both in like art and collaborative like industry, and you know from my like initial interest being both in like art and programming, it, you know, really naturally led me there. Basically, I was at EA for like not even a year and a half and then a friend of mine from Baton Rouge, from my college town, like offered me a position working on his indie game and that was like so, like, so, like aligned with my career goals of having my own studio someday. I was like the opportunity to actually like work in the indie space. Instead of it a triple-a company, which is what we call, those like huge, like you know, multi-million budget, like games at, like EA and stuff. I was like that's, that's like absolutely like what I want to do.

Linden:

So I took a big risk and I quit and I moved back to my college town and I was actually on that project for under a year Total mess. It was a total mess. It was a big risk Because of the stuff I was like learning on that project. I was, you know, because you know, the nice thing about getting to work on an indie project rather than like a big corporation is like you don't get put in like a box of like okay, there's like a huge team and everybody needs to fill this niche little role at like a AAA company. In indie you kind of get to like build whatever you want to, as long as it's like moving the game forward.

Linden:

And so I got to explore graphics programming, which was not a route that I would have been able to go on at, like EA on my last team. And then, as I was learning, I started writing a blog of tutorials that were basically just like turning around and teaching everybody like everything that I had learned about graphics programming, as I was like learning it Basically. The way that I ended up at Blizzard, the technical director on a team at Blizzard and a couple other people on the team like happened upon my blog because I was writing about stuff that they were trying to do in this really particular niche. So the technical director was following me on Twitter because of the blog stuff that I was posting. And then one day that I tweeted I was looking for a job and he was basically like well, we've been reading this guy's tutorials anyway.

J.R.:

We should just hire him, hire this guy.

Linden:

Yeah, and so I got hired on the team and then I had to move back to California. But it was the best thing. That, like, it's like one of the best things that's ever happened to me, yeah, um, and then I was at Blizzard for a couple of years and the story continues, but that's crazy.

J.R.:

So I guess I want to highlight something and. I mean, I've heard this story before when you told me, which was well.

J.R.:

First off, you learned a lot at the, the indie game place because, you were wearing a lot of hats and I'm sure maybe you covered this that there was also a learning experience that you knew down the line would serve you anyways, right, and then you started learning stuff on your own and then kind of sharing what you've learned as a teacher, which you circle back on that theme later on, and then, because you're putting this stuff out and you're learning, and then you're teaching, and then you get recruited, basically online, via your Twitter and your blog and whatnot, for this job, which I'm assuming was like a, you know, like a dream job for maybe a lot of people, and then you get to work at Blizzard.

Linden:

Yeah, being like willing to take like that risk to like work on the indie team. Indie team, it was something that like it was a really hard decision to make at the time, cause I was like well, I like just got this job right out of college and it like has the security of like being at a big company and it paid way more. But working at the indie studio, even though I knew before I even took the job that there was a risk that it was going to be a big mess and the game was going to be canceled Like technically, you know, that risk is like true anywhere.

Linden:

If you're going to work in art and entertainment, I've just always had the perspective that I'd rather, given how risky like that industry is already to like I'd rather do something that like aligned with my goals and my like vision for myself and like take be the risks be ones that were like ones that I was taking, rather than like ones that the universe was going to like force on me anyways, because that's just like what working in like entertainment is like. So and yeah it, it it paid off really well. I definitely like got lucky there. But luck is also only something that happens when you're positioning yourself to even have opportunities. You know, if I had never quit that job, I would have never gotten to like learn those skills that I ended up focusing the rest of my career on, never would have written that blog. Andy Bond would have never been following me, never would have worked at Blizzard.

J.R.:

So yeah, I love that there's a lot of good takeaways there, let's move on. So, blizzard, you worked there for a couple of years. Walk us through, like the next few years or so, into what you're currently doing or what you're up to.

Linden:

Yeah, so the next few years, years, there's like more like highs and lows here, like I, so I was at Blizzard for a little bit longer than I was at EA. I was at Blizzard for like two years and a couple of months, so clearly not somebody that dedicates to being somewhere for a long time. Even though Blizzard gives you a sword if you stay there for five years but you don't want the sword, I could never you're like, yeah, I could never be somewhere for long you're like being somewhere else is feels better than a sword yeah, no, exactly.

Linden:

It's funny too, because at 10 years you get a shield, I think, and then at 15 you get a ring, and then at 20 years you get a helmet, and, I don't know, at 25 maybe they just give you the rest of the suit, of the armor and the horse or something, and then you ride to battle.

J.R.:

But I'm curious how you start with the sword and it's like, yeah, no defense, but go at it. And then it's like okay you can have the shield now and after that it's like a ring.

Linden:

Yeah, well, that's just working in art. That's just working in art. You always get the sword before the shield.

J.R.:

You know, I just have get the sword before the shield, Gotcha. They're like. You know what Just have at it. If you survive long enough, we'll give you some shields.

Linden:

That is exactly what it is like. That's a great metaphor, actually. Wait, what was the actual?

J.R.:

question oh yeah, so you couldn't stay there for too long. Oh, what did I do? Oh right, what happened?

Linden:

after that yeah, I was at Blizzard for a bit and that I've ever like worked at for sure.

Linden:

You know, anybody that pays attention to like video game industry news like knows that Blizzard had like a pretty big expose like a few years ago about like bad working conditions and stuff. And you know it was like Riot the year before that. I think like basically every single one of those companies could deserve that. You're like these are like industry wide, like really deep problems, you know, and so your experience kind of depends, not just like in the game industry as a whole or like at any particular company. It's like what team are you on and like does your boss suck or not? And my boss was awesome. I really liked the leadership on my team and I loved the people that I worked with. I mean, like the like day-to-day people that you work with at Blizzard are like some of the most like dedicated people in the industry. Like it's super cool.

Linden:

Anyways, all of that being said, the reason that I left um I you know I told you about how, like when I was at EA, I was working on um like a genre of game I wasn't really interested in. I got totally pigeonholed into that in my career the team at Blizzard we were. Also I kept working on mobile action strategy games. I don't play these at all, but it's like again in arts and entertainment you get into what niche people keep like hiring you to do it, and I still had that goal this whole time of like building my own indie studio. Basically, during the pandemic lockdown, I had a few like really key conversations with people who were freelancing and who were actually like running their own studios and doing other really like independent work. Like that they encouraged me and helped to give me the knowledge that I needed to actually like quit and pursue that on my own. So I quit Blizzard to freelance. I did that for a year and a half and then I ended up working at a startup because the freelance work dried up quite a bit after the investors stopped like throwing money at the game industry after like 2020, 2021, and at that point I started like really going hard on like building and finishing my indie project and actually running my own studio, and I got to the point where we were actually successful enough that we got like a small grant from Netflix to build it, because they're trying to build out their like mobile games section of their app and so we were a part of a program where they were giving a grant to a bunch of like new creators basically especially like marginalized creators to like make stuff and basically help them experiment with like what works well on like their app.

Linden:

Then I hit a wall and I realized I just like didn't want to do development anymore. No, yeah, it was. It was really really hard, because everything I've told you up until this point and everything that I understood about myself for the better part of a decade was that all I wanted to do was like run my own indie studio. But I just like I could. You know, if you remember, earlier in the conversation I told you how like I was like shy about like being an artist, and so I went into programming instead. And, yeah, after like working in code for eight years, feeling like that the whole time, I was like I actually really don't like this. So that's what happens. That's what happens when you don't take that risk and like bet on yourself, you know.

Linden:

And then I got myself into this corner and I couldn't stand it and there were just like other things about like the business of like working in game development that just like weren't working for me. So in January I quit my job at the startup that I was working at and I've kind of shelved my side project. I would still like to finish it, but I'm not going to go as ham on like trying to run an indie studio anymore. I had basically like wanted in the like really really long run to work in education. Like I was thinking like, oh, I'm going to teach closer to like retiring or whatever. But I'm like you know what Retiring is? Now I'm going to teach now actually. So, and I'm extremely excited about that. So now I don't have to code anymore. I can just like tell the students to do it and then they have to do it yeah, so I paid my dues.

J.R.:

I, not I, paid my dues.

Linden:

Yeah, exactly, I've done my time. Yeah, yeah.

J.R.:

Okay, so let me take a step back. So you were like I could quit, I don't want to do this anymore. How did you get into like education? Like I'm sure there are people who want to do the same. I also want to be a teacher eventually a professor one day.

Linden:

You're a great teacher, thank you.

J.R.:

This is why I'm doing all this free stuff for yeah, exactly yeah exactly.

Linden:

Well, yeah, that's the spirit, like I had. So, basically, like throughout my career, like I've kind of always tried to with the success that I've had, like give other people the ladder instead of like pulling it up from under me. Like you know, I've always, throughout my career, done different, like mentorship programs or volunteer work or, like you know, community building. You know writing the tutorials. Uci in particular, there was just one particular mentorship program that I did. I was mentoring the capstone class, which is like the final big like project course for like the game development program at UCI. I did that for several quarters when I was working at Blizzard and then after that I was introduced to it by another colleague who worked at Blizzard Like a volunteer.

Linden:

Yeah it was just total volunteer thing. It was like I would go when it was in person in 2019, I would meet up like every other week with a particular group of students. That was like building a game. There was like a gavel of game developers from various companies who would like come meet with a class and like both like help the students solve, like development problems and then also just like give like career advice and stuff, basically connections that I made through that, like, uh, the colleague who helped me get into that in the first place.

Linden:

Then, when I was like putting out this call in January, like hey, I really want to get into education like does anybody know anybody that works in education that can help me with this?

Linden:

Um, this is my friend, nikki, who got me into that mentorship program, helped get me in contact with the curriculum head at UCI, who basically recruited me to then come teach for them in this fall. So that definitely only happened because I had I like you know universities to get like your first teaching job. You still have to have some, you have to show some dedication to like teaching people you know and so doing the mentorship and having lecturing experience at universities already cause I did let you know guest lectures for my friends Like, again, this is all like volunteer work. At the time that I was doing it I didn't I wasn't doing it strategically, like I didn't even know what I needed to do to be a professor, cause to me that was like 10 more years down the line, but it paid off and I didn't even think that it was going to so. But when that came through it was like uh, yeah, very serendipitous.

J.R.:

That whole, that whole spiel is like gold, especially for me personally. That's good takeaways from that. It's like you're, you're doing this free, you're volunteering. It's something that you enjoy obviously, cause you're still something that you enjoy obviously because you're still you, you were doing it at the time, and then you know building your networks as well, which you reached out to, so that played a key into that. And then now you're you got the offer. Now you're doing it. Um, it's like your, your career now.

Linden:

So that's pretty cool yeah, exactly being involved in community is really interesting because it's like you're gonna get the most out of it if you go into it, like actually for the purpose of building community. But you really, Because you can't anticipate or plan or strategize like uh, like community benefiting you, but like if you give a lot to your community, then like people will remember that. You know, like my friend Nikki, like you know, put me up for that recommendation because I was like volunteering with her. You know, and there's like you can't, really you can't strategize the way that like the community is going to like give back to you. You just have to, like you know, put that effort in and like, if you put that love out there, then I do think that it comes back. I'm optimistic about it.

J.R.:

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, Again. Just that's just all gold. So, listeners, rewind that part, listen to it again, share with your friends. It is very good advice. Linden a testament to that. I think his journeys is it's an incredible journey. I think it's great and I think it's a testament to that. I think his journeys is it's an incredible journey. I think it's great. And I think it's great advice, solid advice. I would recommend the exact same things to people building the community and you can't really calculate the ROI on those things, but if you do the things that you're passionate about and that you love, it will. I'm also optimistic it will come back to you in some way when you're aligned with what you think you're supposed to be doing.

Linden:

Oh, there's one other note that I want to make is that, like I talk about things very positively, but this was not without struggle. When I texted Nikki I'm trying to find a job in education, this was my darkest hour. Like I was having a bad. I was like I don't know what I'm going to do with my life. This is what my degree is in. I can't like I don't have any other skills. I saw those stories.

J.R.:

I sent you compassion, silently, I believe in you.

Linden:

Yeah, well, I appreciate it, because the universe definitely heard that. Because, like, yeah, I was not like doing well, I was like very sad, I was really like I was really like falling apart and yeah, it was just interesting. You know, it's even funnier Like I didn't. When I quit in January, I didn't have anything lined up. And not only that, but my first conversation with UCI was not when I got the job, like when I talked to the curriculum head of the game dev program at UCI at first. Like he was like we're all accounted for the next year, but like I'm putting you on the list and I was like I'll take that, you know, take the list, yeah. And I just like got lucky. Well, you see, I got unlucky, but I got lucky that like somebody quit.

Linden:

And then the curriculum director like emailed me a few months ago and was like hey, somebody quit. Like we actually have an opening for like definitely one, but potentially like three classes, like potentially more, like do you want to take these? And I didn't even answer the email at the first at first, cause I was so sad and like in my feelings I was like I don't even know if I want to go back into games. And then he emailed me again and I was like this is the universe telling me to like get off my butt? And like, like answer this email? And as soon as I got back to him, like we had a call and he was like, yeah, we definitely need you for this class.

Linden:

And I had dinner with Nikki, like um, later after that and she was like, yeah, like he's like like Aaron's like really happy that like you're taking this job, cause he feels like you're like saving him right now, cause they had no idea who's going to do this class. And I'm like, no, you're saving me. So, um, yeah, I talk about things very positively, but that's not to say that it wasn't without emotional, you know, just cause it like things worked out serendipitously in the end, it's like only because I was like trying and like being open to these things, you know, but it certainly wasn't without struggle. Yeah, you saw. Yeah, you saw the Instagram stories Jair's on my close friend list.

J.R.:

He definitely seemed like he was in a dark place. I was like, oh God, I'm sure I think good things will come to me. I'm so glad it worked out, yeah.

Linden:

Yeah.

J.R.:

Um, okay, let's, let's take a little bit of a pivot. Maybe not so much, but um, and we can probably continue this in a part two. I think you have so much good insight to give to the audience. But so art passions and hobbies how does that play into your life story, your career trajectory and all that stuff? I know you kind of mentioned about that a little bit and I know personally that you do a lot of art stuff, and then you mentioned that you're like okay, now my self-awareness. I think art is really the thing that I want to do. So how did that play into it?

Linden:

Making art is like the. I just know that that's like my calling, that's like what I need to like do with my life. The only question has ever been like how and when. I went through the period where I was like questioning whether or not I wanted to be like involved in game development and like try to figure out like maybe, if I'm not a programmer, maybe I just be like a 3d modeler or something like that. Instead, that's something I had questioned for like years.

Linden:

I went through a period where I felt like really broken because I was like I just don't even want to work in like industry anymore. Like I don't want to work in the game industry for you know, the better part of a decade, like I said earlier, like it like that was what I wanted to do, was like I wanted to start an indie game studio and then I got there and I was like, oh, I don't, like, I actually don't like this, which sucks, but the one like saving grace that I had was like well, the one thing that hasn't changed is that I do still want to make art and I know that that's like what I want to do with my future. I haven't figured out exactly what I'm going to like do instead. But I do know that that like that still is like something about me that like hasn't changed Some people, I think that anybody that has this like feeling inside of them, like they know like what this like calling is about and I'm not necessarily saying that everybody that has that feeling needs to do it as like their job. You know, I think that there's actually like a decent chance that, like for the day job, like education is the thing for me, because I'm like also very passionate about teaching.

Linden:

But, yeah, art, like you know, the stuff like like dancing and photography, that I stuff, you know, that I do on the side, you know, even though those aren't hobbies that, like you know, led to like the blizzard job or whatever like there's still like a really important part of like feeling fulfilled, even when, like that career isn't, you know, and like knowing that that's like always something that I come back to is like that is like my life passion, you know.

Linden:

I hope that I'm so rambling.

J.R.:

No, no, no. It's great. This is like one of those interviews because you just like, you just go and I'm like, wow, this is all good, everything is gold. So like yeah, so art is? You know that you're destined for art and you do stuff on the side.

J.R.:

Even if it's not necessarily career stuff you do, it's something that you enjoy, and that's, I think, an important takeaway for the audience, right? Yeah, like maybe art is your career, maybe it's not, but I think art, or whatever you feel like, energizes you. You should definitely latch onto that. Yeah, because you can't just keep doing stuff without being energized by something.

Linden:

Yeah, absolutely yeah. Sometimes that is like the question for people who know deep down inside that they're like artists and they have to like make art with their life. Sometimes that is the question is like, okay, then do I do that with my career? You know, because that's like like, that's like a whole separate question than like am I an artist? Like am I an artist?

Linden:

I think really, technically, every human has the right to answer yes to um, and for people that feel deeply that they need that, needs to be a significant part of their life, like the question is like then do I do that with my career?

Linden:

Because that is very hard and it is a different question. So I want people who are artists to know that like the answer can be no to the career question but still yes to like I am an artist, you know, and I think that there is still like a part of me that, like I do still want to try to figure out another route and like fight for it being like a big aspect of my career. You know and I haven't figured out exactly what that is yet but, um, you know that identity is definitely not lost just because, like it's hard or there's like a discussion there, you know. But if you want to work in art for a living, like it kind of always is like going to be a fight. So just because you're struggling doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong because it's always going to be hard but it also doesn't have to be the thing you know.

Linden:

It's like nobody can answer that question for you except for you.

J.R.:

As you're talking, there's a few books that come to mind Um, there's big magic, um, the war of art and linchpin by Seth Godin. They're not all by Seth Godin, I don't know the authors for the other ones, but Lynchpin by Seth Godin talks about like art is the thing that would separate you in any industry, in the field whatever that you work in, because you can be technical and all this other stuff. But what makes you stand out is like your artistries, like the artists within you, because you can be the best technical whatever, or maybe there's everyone's the same technical level, but you as an artist is what makes you different and invaluable and like kind of that linchpin. Maybe that's not even the book, maybe it's another book and I'm just combining ideas, but still check those out. Well, I'll plug my own marlionacruzcom. I do book summaries, as you guys should know by now. But thank you for that.

J.R.:

We'll go back to books and resources, because I want to ask you about, like, what you think some good resources are for the audience. Next topic you talked about identity a little bit. I want to ask you. So you, for context, you are a transgender guy and I know when we talked about this in our pre-meeting. That obviously informs the way you think, your approach to life, and you know your own identity and then your career and whatnot. I don't know where to start exactly, but how would you say that kind of informs your approach to everything?

Linden:

Yeah, it really does. Like you know, I was thinking about like how does this thematically like connect to the career stuff? But I think like the takeaway from like me, like as a person both like my career, my personal life is about like not being afraid of change and being a queer person, especially being like a transgender person is like it is just like about constantly changing. It's like even if you're not changing, the world's changing around you. It's ideas of you and whether or not it's going to give you rights or not, you know. So it like it was something that like I've grown up in a very like accepting family, which is really awesome.

Linden:

I didn't start coming out to anybody. I think I came out as trans about like six years ago. It was basically right before I started the job at Blizzard. That was the first place where I started like using my new like you know well, new at the time like name and pronouns, and that was the first time not the first job that I worked at where I use those pronouns, but that was like the first um, the the first like game industry job where I did yeah, I mean, it was terrifying at the time, like to me, though I'm so I'm somebody who's so comfortable being in flux, like I think that's what it's like given me is being somebody who's like like.

Linden:

I thrive the most, I think, when things are like changing a lot, you know, when I'm like starting a new journey, um, quitting a job, starting a new job, picking up a new project, or, like you know, getting into a new hobby that I started out terrible at, like dancing, or something you know, like I don't know, that's just where I'm like most comfortable anyways, because there's so much like hope in those times of like something being better.

Linden:

There's like simultaneously like so much to lose, which is terrifying but also exhilarating, but there's also like so much to gain, coming out as a queer person, with whatever identity it is that you're coming out with, like it's so terrifying, but there's also like so much to gain, like there's so much like like being able to like be loved the way that you want to be loved, being able to love other people the way that you want to love.

Linden:

Like being able to like present yourself to the world that you, you know the way that you want to like you know not being like afraid to like express, like what you're interested in and like who you want to be around and like your like views on the world, like authentically, like you know, like that's so important and there's like like going through changes like that, there's just like so much hope for like that kind of stuff in the future. So being trans, I think, has just made me somebody who's like just like extremely comfortable with like periods of change like that, because to me there's so much like potential in them, you know so.

J.R.:

Yeah, I think that's, I mean, that's a really good takeaway too. I mean, what is that saying? Like the only thing consistent in life is change, or something like that.

Linden:

Oh yeah, the only thing that, what is it? It's like the only thing that doesn't change is change, or something.

J.R.:

I know what you're talking about, and then, like death and taxes, I don't know, whatever. Yeah.

Linden:

Yeah, death taxes and everything changing constantly. Yeah, everything constantly changes, including the tax rules, but anyways that too.

J.R.:

That's a whole nother topic, yeah, but yeah, I like that because I think it's what I admire about you and what it's it's obviously in your journey that you've done a lot of growing and, like you said, that being comfortable with that constant state of change and being open to new opportunities, kind of like you said, is like, thematically, where your life is, how it's connecting everything together. I think that's such a valuable takeaway for people, for people who are scared of change, scared of losing something and, I think, even a bigger idea of loss, acceptance, moving forward and not being too attached to things. I think I was talking to a friend recently random about how to get over a breakup and then I started to go very meta philosophical. I'm like, look, nothing is permanent. If you can get comfortable with detaching yourself from things, you'll be happy, because most of what makes us unhappy is an attachment.

J.R.:

It's something, a person an idea, someone's opinions, a job, a career, whatever. But if you can develop that muscle of okay, I can just accept what's going on, obviously it's like you can control what you can control, but there's a lot of things you can't. But if you are comfortable with, like, letting things go a person out of your life or a thing or a job then you're going to be so much more at peace and then you can accept the new things that come into your life and then just be happier yeah.

Linden:

Yeah, no, I love that, I love you and I are both people that, like when we give somebody advice, it turns really philosophical right. Yeah.

J.R.:

I know I feel like sometimes I'm embarrassed. I'm like, oh, I just went too deep. You're just asking me for advice, like, how do I get over this guy? I'm like, look, everything is changing.

Linden:

No, you shouldn't text her back because you need, to like, understand your attachments to things. Yeah, exactly.

J.R.:

Oh my gosh, yeah, I can go on and on sometimes, yeah.

Linden:

But no, I 100% agreeonent of not like identifying too deeply with, like whatever company you currently work at, and part of that's definitely like got a political like you know, workers right bent to it. For me, but I mean, like, the other side of that is like, yeah, that, like that like attachment and that like identity. You know, it's like a little bit of like a dangerous like game to play, because, especially again when you work in arts and and entertainment, that could go away at any moment. Like investors change their mind every day about whether or not they want to be into some particular entertainment company and bosses change their mind every day about whether or not they think that your game needs to be published, and that's true in, you know, any media that you could possibly work in. And so it's so dangerous, it's so easy in arts and entertainment, when you do get into a situation when you're like actually really like the game that I'm working on or I'm so passionate about, like Blizzard or I'm, so is that like there's so many forces outside of your control that just like, like it, just like doesn't matter how much like you make it a part of your identity, like you as one individual, like unit in that sphere. Like it, it doesn't feel the same way about you. You know the universe like does it feel the same way about like you that you like identify and hold onto things you know, and that's true both with like your CEOs. Like you that you like identify and hold on to things you know, and that's true both with like your CEOs like and their workers, and like the universe and your gender. Like the universe like doesn't care, like it's, you know, dispassionate, like about like any particular attachment that you have.

Linden:

So like an attachment that like you have to something. It's like you know it like there's kind of like a lot to lose by like losing yourself too much to it. You know, and we have so much worth outside of any particular like identity you know that we have. We have so much worth outside of, just like the job that we have or, like you know, a particular like identity that we like have in the moment. You know. So like being open to other things, like not attaching to those things, makes it a lot easier to go through those transitioning periods when we do like lose them, and that's not to say to never take joy in those things. But there's a difference between like taking joy and like, like you know, being at a point where you would like absolutely fall apart, if you ever, like, lost something you know, man, I feel like your, your class is going to be half video games, half philosophy.

J.R.:

I love it.

Linden:

Oh gosh. No, we're actually like the. We're going to be cramming so much material into the semester. It's really going to keep me on track.

J.R.:

Yeah, just all technical. Yeah, yeah, center for professor reads class, you might get a little bit of philosophy.

Linden:

Office hours. However, office hours, you come into office hours. Free philosophy classes? Yeah, free philosophy classes.

J.R.:

So great, I love it yeah.

J.R.:

I was going to go back a little bit and ask. I have an idea of what you might answer and I feel like I would answer the same. But for the person who's back to career, but security and money and I don't want to be in that place of fear and not knowing what I'm doing I'd rather just have the job and the security and the big company or whatnot. But then we've been talking about art and passion and what you're meant to do, and detachment and all this other stuff. What advice would you give to that person? They're trying to pursue the security route, right, maybe it's not exactly what I want to do, but it pays the bills of being an accountant or an engineer or something like that. But then it's like, yeah, but job security, right, I want to be able to have a job and have a family and that's all real stuff and that's valid. But how would you advise people kind of like on that fence?

Linden:

Yeah, it's not really something that I could tell any particular individual like how to choose one way or the other. Like that's like a pretty deeply personal question of like what like values do you have and what goals do you have, and like what is going to like get you there. You know, because it's also like again, I'm not somebody who advocates like everybody who wants to be an artist like has to do it. There are so many different ways to be an artist that it doesn't mean having to like be a career and like that specifically and like you brought up earlier, there's so much like value that creative people bring to their jobs that aren't like art jobs. Like you don't like have to be a painter, for like your like artistic and creative like abilities to like bring like a lot of value to like the people around you, you know. So there's like there's so many other like ways to like approach that, yeah, I can't like look at any one particular person and be like, oh, like you should or shouldn't like work in art as like a career. But like you have to dig deep down and know like what are like your values and if you're somebody who is going to deeply value that, like art is something that you get to do like every single day, like eight hours a day. You adapting to be able to like take that risk is like definitely something that you'll like have to do, you know. But if you're somebody who like values, like security over everything else and that like actually is the healthiest route for you, then that's what you can do.

Linden:

But if the answer deep down is I do need to work in art, then being comfortable with that risk, you have to realize that there is no perfectly stable position. If you're working in arts and entertainment, if you want to work in film, animation, tv games, like any of it, there is no like any security is an illusion, except that right now, if you want to work in any arts and entertainment, like any security it is an illusion you could work at the. I mean, I just had a friend who, like Riot, had a huge round of layoffs earlier this year. There were thousands of layoffs in the game industry in the last year like unprecedented, like, I think. Basically, like the size of the entire company of Blizzard was like laid off from the game industry in the last year, including a colleague of mine who I used to work at Blizzard with and then he was at Riot and he's been a game designer for like over 10 years now, maybe like 15 total. Most of his career at Blizzard and then at riot and he got freaking laid off from riot.

J.R.:

He got like he has the ring right like you would.

Linden:

He definitely has like the sword and the shield, I'm pretty sure, and that's like insane to me. That doesn't even make sense as a business decision to me, and he should have all of like the illusion in the world of like security, you know, certainly in terms of him being able to like find another job. He was able to like find another job, but like it's just insane that somebody in that position could be like laid off. You know, that doesn't even like logically make sense to me. So you like accept that lack of security now and like save money and have your backup plans. But you can like these risks, like if this is what you need to do, like these risks are worth taking. You got to strategize for it and you got to save your money. You got to have a rainy day fund, but you can do it.

J.R.:

Yeah, I love that, every single thing about that, because even even not in video game or entertainment industry, even in secure industries, you can still get fired for whatever reason.

Linden:

Yeah, totally so it's yeah, my dad worked for Enron Perfect, yeah, he's somebody who had a post. He had a master's in business or whatever, and he was working at Enron, which was one of the bigger. That was a great company to work for at the time, and then that happened.

J.R.:

I think it was like a Jim Carrey quote or something like that, where it was like a Jim Carrey quote or something like that, where it's like, if I'm going to do something for security that I don't enjoy, or something that I do enjoy, that has less security, but then in reality it's like do either really have security, so you might as well do the thing that you enjoy.

Linden:

Oh yeah, that's the other thing. Life's going to be hard work and suck sometimes anyways, so you might as well spend it doing something that you like to do.

J.R.:

Exactly Like choose your challenges, choose your poison or whatever. Yeah, that in itself rewind that part. I think that's good for anyone looking for career advice. Everything's temporary. Don't be too attached to stuff, know your values. Self-awareness, like you said is really important.

J.R.:

Security is an illusion, no matter what industry you're in Pretty much. But I think if you enjoy what you do, you're theoretically going to get better at it over time because you love it and you're going to develop that skill and then that skill makes you quote, unquote invaluable and then more hireable. But if you're also doing the same thing like what Linden has been doing, which is you're putting stuff out there and you're doing what you're passionate about and giving it for free, the world usually gives back to you in that sense it's a lot of good stuff there.

J.R.:

You ready for rapid fire questions? Let's do it. Yeah, cool, all right. So first one is if you could put a sign up for millions of people to see, what would it say?

Linden:

I don't know if this would persuade anybody, but it would say discourse is not reality this discourse, like maybe I would say like internet discourse, because like oh, there's so much every day somebody's arguing about some silly shit on twitter, about queer stuff or the game industry or something else. I just like have to log off sometimes we all gotta touch grass. Like internet discourse, as somebody who's like I don't know people outside the industry like seeing game industry discourse that has nothing to do with what happened when I went into the office in the day-to-day yeah, that's what I would have. It would be like the internet discourse is not reality. I don't think that would persuade anybody, but I would put that out there.

J.R.:

I love that yeah, it's also like media and stuff that people talk about. Like you're saying discourse as a more macro thing, it is so like not real, yeah, people. And yet the the that there's discourse, people treat it as real and then it becomes a real thing because people are talking about a thing that's not real, yeah, and it's just a cycle. So I totally agree. Yeah, what is your favorite failure or something that's like a challenge that set you up for later success?

Linden:

Maybe we touched upon it already, but probably like I mean the thing that I'm going through right now. That's like led me into getting into education. Like every day, I'm like getting more excited about teaching. I can't wait for it. I don't know, maybe I'll get into it. I'll be like, never mind, I don't like this, but my gut instinct tells me that I'm going to love it. I'm so excited about teaching.

J.R.:

Yeah, I'm very excited for you. Actually, it sounds like it's one of those things where it's like you look back and you're like, wow, connecting the dots, this makes a lot of sense.

Linden:

Yeah, because there's one angle where you could look at me quitting a bunch and like leaving companies and realizing that things didn't work for me and spending so much time programming and then being like actually I hate this as like a failure. That that's like one side of the coin. But the flip side of that is that like I have a much bigger breadth of experience that I can now bring to these students than like a lot of people and not to toot my own horn, but just the fact that I've done AAA and indie and freelance and startup Like I can like talk about all those experiences with the kids now and like not a lot of like teachers can do that A lot of. If you worked at Blizzard for 10 years, then that's awesome and you're probably very good at the thing that you do, but you only know about the industry from that perspective, you know. So I can talk to kids like who are going into their careers with an informed position about like a lot of different choices that they have.

J.R.:

So I love that Biggest regret. Or if you could redo something and do it differently, what would that be? From any time period?

Linden:

Yeah, Regardless of everything that I've been through, I have like zero regrets, except not saving a little bit more money. I wish that I, because I like being a teacher, does not pay as well as being a programmer at a VC funded startup, let me tell you, and I wish that I had more money saved up now. Oops, that's fair. So that's just. I think that just happens when you turn 30. You just like, your last brain cell clicks into place and you're like I need to be more serious about my budget. I love that yeah.

J.R.:

On that note, favorite purchase favorite recent purchase of $50 or less.

Linden:

Oh, I bought a really firm pillow, which was good, because I I was like that's another thing that happens when you turn 30. Your like spine clicks out of place, um, and then everything hurts all the time. So yeah, getting like a really firm pillow that had like really good head sport, definitely worth it, even though it's like why is this pillow so expensive. But then I took it home and I slept on it and I'm like okay yeah, just years you're preaching to the choir.

J.R.:

I know all about 30 plus year old spine pain. Ugh, I hate it so much. Yeah, best piece of advice you've ever heard or been given.

Linden:

I know I've been. Can we circle back on this one? Yeah, of course, Okay, okay.

J.R.:

Any habits or routines that are key to getting the results that you have now.

Linden:

Oh, anything that you want to do has to be a habit. Like right now we were just talking about um before this podcast started, we were talking about going to the gym finally started going to the gym, like lifting weights regularly for the first time in my life, uh, and like finally actually started gaining muscle mass. Because of it, I 100% it's only because of the consistency. So it's like whatever it is that you want to do, that you want to get better at, has to be like the consistency is everything. It's more important than performing perfectly every time. It's more important than like. I have days sometimes where I'm like what the heck I could like lift this last week and this week I can't, but I like I still go and I lift and I do the same routine every time and my muscles are growing despite the setbacks. So whatever it is that you want to do has to be a habit. What are the keys to building the habit in your opinion? People think that building habits is just about having some like like conjuring self-discipline out of nowhere. I've made it about making the path to doing the habit as like easy as possible. Be honest with yourself about what the roadblocks are and then do whatever you have to do to like remove them.

Linden:

So for me, getting into the habit of going to the gym, I had to go to a gym that I could like walk to. I'm not somebody that like drives to the gym. I had to be able to. I was like spoiled by working at tech companies with big gyms like in the office that you could just like walk to. So it was like, um, not forcing myself to go at a time of day that I was not going to wake up for.

Linden:

I'm not a morning gym person or an evening gym person. Got to be able to walk there. Got to be able to walk there in the middle of the day. Got to be able to like go to the cafe and like buy a protein shake after. So building just like slightly more expensive gym so I could walk into it, protein shake it like delicious reward at the end. It's all on the budget and I delicious reward at the end. It's all on the budget and I'm not beating myself up about like not getting up at 5am and driving to like a gym just because that's what I'm supposed to do or something and it's cheaper. Just be honest with yourself about like how the habit will actually happen.

J.R.:

Um, for those who are listening, Linden is like jacked, like imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Linden:

Yeah, completely, but if you're watching the video.

J.R.:

It's a joke.

Linden:

Yeah, yeah, so jacked Also six feet tall.

J.R.:

Yeah, six feet tall Jack.

Linden:

You can't tell in the video, cause I'm sitting, so you'll just have to take my word for it.

J.R.:

It's, the camera shortens you by like a foot or so.

Linden:

Yeah, it's crazy yeah.

J.R.:

I love it. Um, if time and money weren't an obstacle, what would you be doing now?

Linden:

Oh, um, what would I be doing? You know it's crazy. I would still be like teaching, like that actually is very affirming for me. I'm very excited about that. I would be taking a much more expensive drawing and painting class. I'm taking some, uh, I'm going to, I'm like just started taking a community college drawing class, which I'm really excited about, um, but I would have just like skipped straight into taking like some like painting courses. I'm only taking the drawing one, cause it was a prereq. Yeah, I would be like drawing and painting like all the time. I wouldn't be worrying about taking enough classes to be qualified as full time. I would work a little bit less. I would still be teaching, but I would be like painting all the time.

J.R.:

Yeah, who would you call successful and how do you define success?

Linden:

You know what's funny? Like when I first like looked at this question on the rapid fire list, like the first person that came to mind was, like my mom, like I think she's awesome, like I think she's such like a perfect example of success because it's not like, oh, like Steve Jobs or whatever. She's somebody who, like me, didn't like come out of college with like the perfect image of her in her head of what she wanted to be. I thought I had one, but clearly I changed my mind about it. Um, and she didn't know what she wanted to do, like really much at all. Um, and so she actually, like um, taught elementary school a little bit and then did like speech, um, speech pathology, like, uh, for elementary students.

Linden:

And then, when I was in middle school, she ended up going to medical school and then she got her MD and became a pediatrician, and I think that's awesome. She raised me and my two brothers and went to medical school at the same time and now she's a pediatrician and she's got a husband and two dogs and four cats. That's successful to me. I'm like that's awesome. She's got a house, she's got a husband and two dogs and four cats. That's successful to me. I'm like that's awesome. She's got a house, she's got a partner, she's got a bunch of animals, she's got a job that she is happy to wake up and go to every day. She has a state record in Texas for deadlifting.

J.R.:

I was just about to say. For those of you who don't know, lynn's mom is also jacked.

Linden:

Yeah, jacked as he is. Totally.

J.R.:

Yeah, but actually for real though, like she does lift right, Like yeah, she, she, she power lifted competitively for like about a decade.

Linden:

She doesn't power lift competitively anymore, um, but she does still lift. Uh, but yeah, she did stay to set a state record in Texas for dead lifting. That was her, like, favorite lift. That's crazy. Yeah, that's hella successful to me.

J.R.:

It's awesome last rapid fire. Uh favorite books, movies, videos, articles or resources that you recommend or share the most I?

Linden:

cannot think of an answer to this one do you have a different one?

J.R.:

the other question was the I think the piece of advice.

Linden:

So if you wanted to go back to that, this isn't really like a particular piece of advice, so much as it is like a um like concept that I was introduced to. So so you know, we were talking about like attachments and the one of the ways that this concept was like introduced to me was actually like during like the like pandemic lockdown in 2020. My, my uncle led like a. He led like a family like meditation, like over like Zoom yeah, for like a few months. Both is just like a family like meditation, like over, like zoom yeah, for like a few months. Both as just like a family activity and also because, like, he was really interested in sharing with us Like he he has some like uh, oh, what is it called? He's really into Ram Dass I forget what this like.

Linden:

There's like this like movement that started in like the sixties with this guy who, um, kind of like brought a lot of like values that he was learning like through like learning like yoga, like to like people in the States, and there's certainly like a lot to say about like cultural appropriation and such that happened as a result, but the values that he brought about, like attachments and being able to like be present in like the moment, those like there's not like really one good snappy, like quote or like piece of advice that I can like get from that, but that was like that was really really valuable to me in that it kind of like introduced those like concepts to me of like letting yourself like exist in the moment without like these like identities and like attachments being something that are, like you know, causing us like pain in our daily life, and that's really like a philosophy that's like helped me a lot and process and kind of like see, all of the things that I've been through with my career and all of these like changes and stuff that have happened in my life is, like you know, thematically whole and definitely informed the chats that we're doing today.

Linden:

So thanks to my uncle for that Nice.

J.R.:

Yeah, nice Thanks, uncle. I like that. One thing that came to mind was that idea of, like you know, too much past gives you depression, too much future gives you anxiety. Yeah, and then it's present is that everything, all the good emotions are in the now.

Linden:

Yeah.

J.R.:

So it just reminded me of that. Okay, well, ready to wrap up Ending questions, so gratitude Shout out to my mom. This is where I learned it from. I always like to end with gratitude. What are you grateful for, Linden?

Linden:

Oh, I'm so grateful for everybody that's helping me go through everything that I'm going through right now. Just not even just people like Nikki, who helped get me that job although she's helping me both in like a material and like an emotional way but like all my friends that I'm like reaching out to right now, shout out to my friend, molly, who ordered me a pizza last night, because I was just like really sad and I was like I don't even know what I'm gonna like cook tonight, just like going through it, and she just like ordered me dominoes and pineapple and bacon pizza, which is my favorite, and threw in garlic sticks on top of that, which which I didn't even ask for. So, shout out to everybody who's who's helping me right now, especially thank you, you got me the job and Molly got me the pizza. You know there's like so many emotional things that I can't like shout out, but those are very representative of all the things that people are doing.

J.R.:

Um any final ask from the audience or any final takeaways that you would like them to have from this conversation?

Linden:

Yeah, I think, like really the theme for me is about like being comfortable with change and in times of flux and I just hope that I'm an inspiration to people that there's like a lot of like different things that you can try and sometimes the enjoyment is in, like the trying. It's not like there is no one state that you're going to reach, which something that I was really attached to for a long time with the idea of running the indie studio. I was really attached to that idea of like that I was going to run an indie game studio and that was going to be my thing. You know that didn't work out. And then I look back on everything that I went through and like the enjoyment was in, like all the things that I was trying like the whole time, you know, and like there's so much that I learned from that that like, even though I'm not running an indie studio, with it I'm now going to be able to pass it on to my students and like be able to help them.

Linden:

And so I don't know things like things never work out exactly as well as you wanted them to. They're not. It's never the perfect picture that you wanted, but it's also never the bad scenario that you imagined. It's always a secret. Third thing that is never the perfection, nor the depths of despair that you thought it was going to be. It's always something secret and it's not in the middle of those two things. It's way off to the side and it's not something that you could have like predicted, but it, like the journey, is always it, because we can't predict what those things are going to be.

J.R.:

So I love it. I think if you get through life, the older that you get, you start to realize that truth, which is like never goes as I planned and it also is not as bad as I thought. Yeah, exactly Somewhere in between, somewhere out there.

Linden:

Yeah, I've never expected.

J.R.:

Yeah, All right, cool. So, Linden, where can people find you if they want to reach out or see what you're up to?

Linden:

Yeah, um best place you if they want to reach out or see what you're up to. Yeah, best place to follow me now because again I'm tired of Twitter discourse is on Instagram at outofmana O-U-T-M-A Wait, o-u-t, I can spell O-U-T-O-F-L-O, it's on the screen. Great.

J.R.:

If you're listening to it it's in the show notes description, you'll see it. So Jono's description. Yeah, yeah, so. Instagram.

Linden:

Yeah, instagram is definitely. That's also my handle on Twitter, but I don't go on that website anymore. It hasn't gotten me a job in years, so it served its purpose it did, yeah, all right.

J.R.:

Well, that is it. Well, we will wrap up. Thank you again, Linden, for being on the show.

Linden:

Thanks so much for having me.

J.R.:

I hope you a lot and I think our audience will. I don't know, I think they'll love. I love what you've said, so I'm sure the audience will really appreciate it too. So thank you for being here and to the audience. Thank you, guys for listening and tuning in, as always. Just a reminder to be kind to others, especially yourself, and remember that you can always learn something from someone. You just need to take the time to listen. So thank you.

People on this episode

Head Shot

J.R. Yonocruz

Host
Contributor

Linden Reid

Guest