#52: Hannah Kim - “Trauma of the Eldest Daughter,” Moving to East Coast, Pickleball, Opening a Private Therapy Practice, and More

In this episode of One Thousand Gurus, host J.R. sits down with Hannah Kim, a licensed mental health counselor with her own private practice in Massachusetts. Hannah shares insights from her career in therapy, emphasizing the importance of self-healing and therapy for therapists. They explore various facets of therapy, including its challenges, the significance of cultural relatability, and the burdens therapists bear. The conversation also delves into Hannah's personal journey, including her background, college experiences, and transition from community mental health to a successful private practice. They discuss the cultural expectations and pressures faced by eldest daughters in immigrant families. The episode also covers lighter topics like enjoying pickleball, participating in Barry's Bootcamp, and finding joy in hobbies like photography and interior design. Hannah shares candid advice on finding balance, self-care, and the importance of believing in oneself.

Guest bio:
Hannah is a licensed mental health counselor with her own private practice in MA. She has a bachelor's in Cognitive Science Psychology and a master's in Counseling Psychology. Although Hannah is California born and raised, she currently resides in Boston with her husband. She's living her best life playing pickleball and volleyball, dog and cat sitting for friends, joining the pilates and Barry's Bootcamp cult, cooking for friends and family, and traveling a ton! 

• Instagram: @hannahbobbb / https://www.instagram.com/hannahbobbb/
• Website: https://zencare.co/provider/therapist/hannah-kim

Links/resources:

• Barry’s (HIIT bootcamp workouts - website)
• “K-jangnyeo (K-장녀)” = “trauma of the eldest daughter” (loosely translated)
• “Nunchi (눈치)” = a Korean concept that refers to the subtle art of gauging other people's moods, feelings, and thoughts, and then responding appropriately
• Aeron Chair from Herman Miller (website)
• Spigen Amazon Store for phone cases (Amazon - affiliate link)
• Shrinking (TV series - wikipedia)

Transcript

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J.R.: Hello, and welcome back to 1000 Gurus with me, your host, Jr. Yona Cruz. Today's guest is Hannah Kim. Hannah is a licensed mental health counselor with her own private practice in Massachusetts. She has a bachelor's in cognitive science, psychology, and a master's in counseling psychology.

Although Hannah is from California, born and raised, she currently resides in Boston with her husband.

She's living her best life playing pickleball and volleyball, dog and cat, sitting for friends. Joining the Pilates and Barry's Bootcamp, cult cooking for friends and family and traveling a ton. This was a lovely conversation. I had a lot of fun. It was a long time coming, but having remote conversations not restricted to just one hour was always where I wanted to get to.

With this podcast and with this new software, it's finally possible.

Speaking with Hannah was like catching up with a close friend from college because that's exactly what she is. But we also have a lot of common history on our dance teams. Shared struggles.

And we generally have great chemistry since we go way back, which always makes these conversations feel [00:01:00] effortless and the time just flies.

We reminisce on our college dance team days. I ask her about the differences between SoCal and moving to Boston 11 years ago, what grad school was like, and having opened her own private practice right before the pandemic. I discovered that Hannah is a wealth of insight and, and. I discovered that Hannah is a wealth of insight and information.

As you can tell, she's done a lot of inner work and has reflected on what has helped her get to where she's today, which I really admire and appreciate about her.

On a technical note, just so you're prepared, while editing this recording, I noticed there was a delay and sometimes the audio will cut off.

This is because we were recording in different time zones, three hours apart. So sometimes it sounds like we're cutting each other off, but it's just because our audio overlaps and there's no real easy way to edit out that delay, at least from what I know.

Also, because I have to use some AI functionality to clean up the audio of background noise, I noticed that at some points it would cut off one of our mics inaccurately. But hopefully this doesn't deter your listening experience as it genuinely is a really good episode. So if you hear some parts sound a little wonky, that's just kind of how it turned out.

But thank you for bearing with [00:02:00] me as I work out the kinks of this new platform. So without further ado, hope you enjoy this episode with Hena Kim, I.

Welcome back to 1000 Gurus. Hannah, welcome to the show. Woo. Insert applause. Cool, cool. All right, Hannah, so you are first time to the show. Yes. Our second remote guest as I mentioned. So I'm so happy to have you here and moving to this hybrid format.

So I will go into how I know you. So first we met off in, we met in 2009 when we both went to UCI and we both dormed in Mesa, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Wait, what was your rear? And then we both 

Hannah: dorm hall. 

J.R.: Oh, it's at the tip of my tongue. What are the names? If someone says it, I will be like, yes, that was it, but I forgot the name.

What was yours? 

Hannah: It was Otero. 

J.R.: The music. The music dance one. What was the, was Atero also the dance one or was there a separate dance one? 

Hannah: No, the I don't know. Otero was definitely the music one. I don't know about dance [00:03:00] actually. 

J.R.: Was that the one I thought was Prada dance or what was the one, what was the one with the ghost ballerina or something?

Do you know what I'm talking about? I 

Hannah: think it was Prodo. 

J.R.: I think Prodo was a dance one. It 

Hannah: was the one that's why it was the dance hall. 'cause there's like a ballerina that was spinning a dead one. 

J.R.: A dead one, but a ballerina regardless. She was good. Know. I forgot 

Hannah: about that. Holy shit. 

J.R.: Yeah.

Okay man. I, what was my dorm name? I don't remember. Whatever. 

Hannah: Such long time ago. Yeah, 

J.R.: yeah. No, if it comes up, and it's funny because my RA was from my high school, so she was, she was two years older than me. Yeah. And so her name was Belin. Shout out if she's ever watching this. But I remember going in and she's like, oh my God, Jr.

I'm like, whoa, what the heck? You go to school here, you're like, and was Myra, where am I? I know. Yeah. It was so funny. That's cool. Yeah. So anyways, Mesa Court and then we both did CASA Dance Off, which is a dance competition for first years as part of casa, the [00:04:00] Korean American Student Association Club.

Yeah. And then we did Irma together for two years, but. I was a, I was telling this at the reunion, I was a groupie for year three. Yeah. Because I wasn't on the team, but I was still going to every party and practices and stuff, which is fun. 

Hannah: Didn't you make a choreo for us too? I feel like you did. Yeah. 

J.R.: No, I think I did because I probably did.

I guarantee I did. I know I did for the first two years and then yeah, we took grad photos together, which is fun. Which was fun, is crazy because it's like Jess is also in it, and then it was Ben and Ashley, so it's like mm-hmm. It's all of us. We could've recreated that every reunion if Ben was there.

Hannah: I know. 

J.R.: So, yeah. That was lot of fun. I know, right? Where is he? I know he is overseas. Cambodia talked about this. Cambodia. I was gonna say Thailand. 

Hannah: Same. How long 

J.R.: has he been there for? Yeah same thing, whatever. 

Hannah: For years now, but I know Jess, I know Jess said that she's been in contact like here and there, so he's still alive.

He's still around. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's good. He just doesn't have a social media p presence anymore, so. 

J.R.: [00:05:00] Right, right, right. I think I've seen like one or two over the years, one or two, like videos of him dancing. Yeah. And just getting back into it and I was like, all right, he's, you're still, he still got it.

Hannah: He's ki still kicking. 

J.R.: Still kicking. Yeah. And so yeah we met again at the Irma 15th anniversary, which is fun. And we're one of the first, first gens and in the same family. Yeah. And then you moved to Boston a while ago. Got married and you ever practiced and all stuff Many years ago. I 

Hannah: moved here in 20.

That's crazy. 14. 

J.R.: That's crazy. You're pretty much a native now. 

Hannah: I know. Yeah. It's weird. Do you feel 

J.R.: like you've assimilated or do you feel like you're like hybrid or do you feel like you're still Cali girl? 

Hannah: I definitely think I like more of a hybrid now. Like I don't quite fit in with the natives 'cause the, 'cause Bostonians are a little bit like, rougher around the edges, and they're just a little bit more, more intense youer around edges.

I mean, I have soft edges. Yeah. They're just like a little bit more rough around their edge around the edges. They're a little bit more just like intense people, just like east coasters. 

J.R.: Right. I was gonna say, is that in East coast [00:06:00] thing or is that a Boston thing? 

Hannah: I would say it's like a Boston thing because New England is mostly just like rural suburban areas.

And then you've got like Boston as the major metropolitan city here. And like Boston's are, like the stereotype is true. Like they're a little mean, but they'll like rally with their community like really hard and they're like really loyal to, their people. So it's like this weird I don't like you, but I'll support you type vibe.

J.R.: That makes sense. I had a friend on who is from Chicago. Mm-hmm. And he was saying how, in his perspective, it's like there's that east coast stereotype where they are not, what was it? Nice but kind. So not nice, but kind. Yes. And over in the West coast we are 

Hannah: nice, but not kind. Nice. But not 

J.R.: kind. And then he says in the Midwest it's a mixture of both.

I'm like, okay. So you're the [00:07:00] perfect mixture of both of things. Sure. Why, of course he would say that he's from Chicago. Super subjective. Exactly. But but I thought that's interesting. Obviously we're generalizing, right? Yeah. Anyone could do whatever they want. But do you feel like that's true? Like it is more of that from your experience?

Hannah: Yeah I would say like I, I can only speak for Boston. I can't speak for any other region right outside of the city. Yeah. But I would say there is very strong community vibes, but I will say that it's a bit segregated by race over here. So you have like communities where it's like intensely Irish and intensely Italian and intensely Haitian and Dominican and you got all the Chinese people and then you got like a mix of the East Asians of like Japanese, Koreans, other Chinese people in a certain area, and you got like the white people, right?

So it is very community wise, but within those pockets of community, if that makes sense. 

J.R.: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I [00:08:00] feel like a lot of those big cities that are very Yeah, mixed, like that they have their sections. Yeah. And I'm, is it safe to assume that that's where all like the food is for that sort of ethnic culture?

Correct. 

Hannah: Correct. Yeah. So we have a Chinatown in obviously Chinatown downtown, but there's also like a town city, like a little bit if you drive without traffic, like 15 minutes down a little bit more, but it's like a whole neighborhood of like Chinese people. And you can go there and eat like really good Chinese food.

Yeah. Oh. And and Vietnamese foods as well. 

J.R.: Oh, nice. Yeah. How would you say compares to like Orange County? 

Hannah: Orange County still has really better Vietnamese food, but I will say the Viet food here is pretty bomb. You have like really legit like generation generations of Viet people, Viet families who've been here.

So like my friend, his family and his uncles like, own so many Viet restaurants here. We're [00:09:00] like, are you like Robert's uncle? And they'd be like, yes. They're like, oh, just another one. Yeah. So it is a very much like small business style, but very good. 

J.R.: So I had this conversation with a guest a few episodes back, but we were talking about how, when you go to a different location, that cuisine, let's say Italian food, right?

We use this example how, oh no. Let's say Mexican food. She's Mexican. Mm-hmm. So she's from Mexico and she's like up here. And let's say even just Orange County or San Diego or la, the Mexican food tastes vastly different from food from in Mexico. And my question was, why do you think that is?

Because I'm assuming in these authentic Mexican restaurants, and let's say la mm-hmm. And let's say those people are from Mexico too. Mm-hmm. So they know how, how to make the dishes. Then they're, they're obviously culturally aligned and they've mm-hmm. They're born and raised in Mexico. Why does the food taste so different than in Mexico?

And same thing for let's say, I don't know, Philly cheese steaks from [00:10:00] Philadelphia versus other places, or Italian food from Italy versus other places. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If the same person is just transplanted in other place, why does it taste different? Do you have any thoughts on that? 

Hannah: I think it could be a mix of things, which is like ingredients, right?

So access to authentic ingredients and cost, right? So the cost of importing authentic ingredients might be too much versus I could get a different type of pepper here that will do the same and it'll be more cost efficient. So like 

J.R.: substituting? 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. And then two, because of cost and stuff like that.

And then two, I think you have to cater to the people who are gonna be your patrons. The, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because there are plenty of people who are not Mexican, who might not like the authentic flavors of Mexican food, but would like a more milder or like a modified version of Mexican food.

You know what I mean? So I think that's what happens. You have to you have to maintain your business. And so [00:11:00] if you're getting a lot of, I, this is probably why like Tex-Mex was like created,

Because maybe like white people didn't like the actual Mexican food, but like still liked elements and portions of it and so they just kind of like mixed it together?

J.R.: Mixed it, yeah. Or tweaked it a bit to make it slightly different, but still drawn from that. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I didn't think of it that way, but you're right, because think of like McDonald's around the world mm-hmm. Will have different items based on where it's at. Yeah. It's not always the same thing.

And so they do cater to their audience that's there. So that makes sense that even though it might be Viet food made by a Vietnamese person, they might change it because of substitutes or like you said, because the flavor palate might be different in that area. So they might need more of this, more of that, whatever.

Hannah: Right, right. Because essentially you're trying to sell, and if you're trying to sell, if you're, like, for example, if you're in Boston, like a lot of your patrons gonna be Asian, but there's also gonna be a lot of patrons who are like not Asian. So you have to also sell food to them too. 

J.R.: [00:12:00] Yeah. All right.

Right. That makes sense. Okay. Well I was gonna go into more reminiscing, but now since we have more time, maybe we could just go straight into East Coast sort of things like moving. So jumping to topic number three. So like you said, you've been in Boston for 11 years, right? Yeah. And you said, okay, so, so far you said the vibe is very like communal, but also kind of segregated.

But you know, it's, there's a kindness there that's not always nice. Yeah. What are some of the other differences you've noticed or can compare from SoCal to Boston 

Hannah: Hustle Culture is real out here. People are just trying to find different ways to make money and not to say that Californians aren't like hustle people, but it's just like very intense here.

Like people are like thinking like. A lot about like generational wealth here. And so they're just like constantly hustling. I would say, especially in the Boston area, you have highly more highly educated people concentrated here because of [00:13:00] the sheer amount of education opportunities here. You have a lot of oppor a lot of universities and also like the top universities.

So you've got Harvard, you've got MIT, you've got Boston College here, you've got bu you have Northeastern. Those are just some of the top universities in the city of Boston. And then there's a lot more that aren't like nationally ranked, but are more accessible and affordable to people in the area in a New England area.

So you get like a higher concentration of like highly educated people here who are then converted into young professionals who are, than just trying to make a living out here. 'cause also it's really fucking expensive here in Boston. So if I was reading the statistics, it's like in order to feel like semi comfortable living here in Boston, you have to make six figures.

Like you have to there's no other way to feel comfortable here living in Boston. So yeah, the hustle coaster is real. Like I have friends who are. [00:14:00] Doing real estate on the side while they're doing their nine to five. My husband is a government employee and he's also thinking about like how to, use his spare time to then make money.

So yeah, the hustle culture is really real out here. 

J.R.: Okay. I think I have two questions. So, on hustle culture, is that primarily the act of making money or is it entrepreneurial? Because I think maybe there's a difference, right? So someone, I think typically if someone thinks of hustle culture, they think like side gig business, things like that.

But it seems like if you're saying there's a concentration of highly educated people and they're having like professional careers, it might not necessarily be entrepreneurial. It could just be like making money in a corporation or something like that. And not necessarily if that, does that make sense? I think it's both what I'm asking.

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. So it's both. So I think people are getting, like working and investing in like their careers and whether [00:15:00] it's owning your own business, like there's definitely a lot of that energy here. But there's also just general energy of just like, how can we just make more money? How can we just survive here?

And then, pass them that wealth, down to our family. So I think it's a bit, it's a bit of both, obviously with like higher concentrations of highly educated people. I think you're gonna give more about entrepreneurship, but yeah. 

J.R.: It makes sense. I think also, well, interesting that you say like that, like higher concentration of highly educated, I have this, maybe it's a stereotype of mm-hmm.

Usually the, hmm. I don't wanna say highly educated people don't, aren't entrepreneurial, but I wanna say that typically what I find, okay, maybe that's, again, these are all generalizations, but in my head, the highly educated people will go for the cushy, more corporate jobs that are, like white collar.

But if you're entrepreneurial, you're not necessarily going for a white collar job, you're trying to start your own thing. But that's not because you have this six figure education. It's because either you need to make it or you have an entrepreneurial [00:16:00] family or X, Y, and Z. Yeah. So I'm like, in my brain, typically if you're highly educated, you're not really entrepreneurial.

And again, that's a generalization. And sometimes if you're not educated, it's because you're always been that sort of, I, I need to build something for myself, I don't wanna work for someone else.

Hannah: I would say, I don't know, that's not like a hard and fast rule. I think. I think people I don't know.

You can have 

J.R.: different desires based on your education or whatever. Definitely. 

Hannah: I think Gen Zs are more on the, I wanna work for myself type mindset. I would definitely think us millennials are more like, let's just get like our own benefits, our benefits from corporate and, get our bonuses and shit like that.

So I will say the younger generations are probably more of a entrepreneurial I wanna work for myself, type vibe, versus the older generations. Like we just, 

J.R.: okay, 

Hannah: work a high paying job, and keep working with that. Right. 

J.R.: More like the typical like corporate ladder sort of thing, or career progression.

Hannah: Yeah. 

J.R.: That makes a lot of, so you're saying [00:17:00] in your perspective it might be more generational than necessarily like education level 

Hannah: education. 

J.R.: That makes sense. And so the second question I had was, so I know you mentioned that it's expensive to live in Boston, and so now I'm bringing it back to my hometown Bay Area area and now OC LA area.

And those are also expensive places to live. However, the caveat is there are pockets of areas that are less expensive, right? Mm-hmm. Like I don't wanna throw shade on any of those ar, but you know what I'm talking about, right? There are those cities that, okay, it's definitely cheaper than living in downtown or, yeah.

Yeah. Like yeah, like my hometown of Fremont Milita. Well, it's more expensive now, but usually it's not as expensive as they say San Jose or San Francisco surrounding area, right? Because that exactly where all the big tech companies or businesses are. And so you can say generally the Bay Area is expensive, but the caveat is not everywhere is as expensive as other places.

And I think the same is for LAOC. And so is it the same for Boston where there are those pockets, or is it just generally [00:18:00] rent and everything is crazy? 

Hannah: I think. It used to be more like where we had like pockets, like pre pandemic, post pandemic, everything has skyrocketed. And so now, like Boston, greater Boston area is pretty unaffordable.

It's pretty like bad. It's pretty expensive. Unless you're like grandfathered in. Like it's pretty hard to move into the city now versus if you've already been here pre pandemic and kind of like we're able to settle down because otherwise it's like insanely expensive. I don't know why. 

J.R.: Okay.

Hannah: But so 

J.R.: cost of living just went up? 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Damn. 

J.R.: That's crazy. 

Hannah: It's rough 

J.R.: because they, they say that as like a financial principal role. If you wanna save up more money or invest more, then you have to reduce your living expenses. And so then the math means you just move out to the middle of nowhere.

Yep. Get a huge house for a fraction of the cost. Yeah. And then you kind of [00:19:00] do your things right. Yeah. And especially since a lot of our, like our world is, can be remote or virtual. Mm-hmm. But it's crazy that after the pandemic, like you would expect housing price because now your location isn't as important.

You would expect housing prices or real estate prices to drop, but it actually still goes up. I think that's kind of crazy. Yeah. 

Hannah: Probably has to do with like big fucking corpse to like buying houses. You know that True. Using them as vacation rentals and investments. Yeah it's not us.

The regular folks that are driving up the prices, 

J.R.: we're not doing, we're just trying to survive. We're not, I 

Hannah: know. We're just trying. We're not on prices. Just try to make it to the next day. For real. 

J.R.: I know. 

Hannah: Yeah. It's 

J.R.: crazy. 

Hannah: But I will say going back to your original question of what the difference between East Coast and West Coast, is that at least up here, like people don't like driving, also, like driving in Massachusetts or in the Boston area, it's kind of crazy.

Like you have to be a crazy person to drive here. We're called Masshole for a reason. It's rough. I have a lot of clients actually who come to me [00:20:00] with driving anxiety because it's just a little crazy over here. But, so people don't like driving here. People don't like driving more than half an hour.

People don't like traffic here. I mean, nobody does. But I feel like the hatred towards traffic, it's like a little bit more intense here than back home. Where back home I think people, we just accept it. It's just like part of the process, right? It was like, oh yeah, like that's just LA traffic. That's normal, right?

But here I feel like people like really fucking hate it. And so, so when it, even if you were to move, like out of the greater Boston area, right? You move to I say like Stoneham, Stoneham, that's like a random suburb town in North Shore. More affordable houses, but it's like also a 30 to 40 minute drive away from the city center.

And so people are reluctant to move that far away because it's far, they consider that far, whereas I know like back at home, I would go to la, which is like a two hour [00:21:00] drive from San Diego, like every fucking weekend, or go to the oc and that's like easy one hour drive each way.

And I would do that like multiple times a week. People here don't do that. 

J.R.: Okay. So Boston is not a public, transportation is not big there. 

Hannah: So we do have the MBTA, but it's crap. It's absolute shit. It's just not well built. And it's just yeah, it's, people try to avoid it, so it's not possible.

It's 

J.R.: okay. So they try to avoid it, but it also is not widely used. 

Hannah: It is used, it's just not great. And it's just not like well connected enough and it's just not efficient. Right. And it's like breaking down all the time. Gotcha. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. So everyone has to drive mostly, or they, they prefer it, but they also don't prefer it because of all the anxiety and whatnot.

I then, that's crazy. So I guess I'm curious, what are some things, as a native Californian, I've only really lived here. That you have gotten used to living in Boston and things that you have not gotten used to yet af in your 11 years? 

Hannah: That's a good [00:22:00] question. So one thing, the first thing that came to mind was like the city noise.

So I was born, raised, grew up in the suburbs, right? So it's actually even like more in the rural suburbs. So I lived next to a vineyard and like farms, like where people had like horses, so it was like quiet out there. And then, obviously UCI also in the suburbs, right? So when I moved to Boston, dude, I could not sleep for like three months.

Like I not even shit you like, my insomnia was so bad 'cause it was so loud. Yeah. Like city noise and we have old ass buildings here, so like the windows aren't like sealed well, and so you just hear everything from the outside, and you, I used to live near campus on BC campus and so you would hear like drunk students, come in and out of the area you'd have the subway, our transportation here, buses, motorcycles, cars beeping.

It was crazy. That [00:23:00] was something that I had to get used to. I feel as I've gotten better at it, it doesn't bother me as much anymore. Just gotten used to like city living, I think. 

J.R.: Okay. So did you ever use earplugs or something, or does that not work? 

Hannah: So I was scared to use earplugs at first because I was like, what if I don't hear my phone?

Or what if an intruder comes in? I see. 

J.R.: Yeah. And I don't hear you just, you just wake up. You're like, what happened? 

Hannah: Yeah. 'cause I was just living, I sleep by why 

J.R.: might have been. 

Hannah: Yeah. I was living with three grad school student girls at the time and I was like, what if someone like comes, because I didn't know Boston.

And I was like, I don't know that sounds scary. Um Right, 

J.R.: right, right. 

Hannah: But I got a white noise machine for that particular apartment 'cause it was really close to a busy street. And then when I moved, thankfully the bedrooms were in the back facing away from the busy street, so that really helped. Now I sleep with earplugs every single night because my husband snores 

J.R.: there.

You you're like, now I need it 

Hannah: to save [00:24:00] my marriage. Yeah. I need air so I don't hate him. He literally bought me a gigantic like tub of foam earplugs for me because I, I was like, dude, I was like recording him snoring and it sounds like a motorcycle motor. It's so bad 

J.R.: a tub. Are these disposable like earplugs are washing?

Yeah, they're 

Hannah: disposable. So you like use them until they don't, like they can't hold their shape anymore and then you just to 'em. 

J.R.: Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. So it's like when it was train and all this outside noise, you can't direct your anger at an inanimate object. But when it's at a person, you're like, all right, this is a problem, 

Hannah: this is a problem, 

J.R.: this is a problem.

So we need to solve this. That makes sense. 

Hannah: So I don't think that's like necessarily like East coast, but it was like a direct like transition and adjustment for like suburbs to city life. I think another big thing was weather. So the first winter I experienced here in 2014 was the winter where we got [00:25:00] 10 feet of snow, over 10 feet of snow.

Oh my God. Dude, it was crazy. 'cause I was like, what the fuck did normal? I get myself into No. So it's not normal. So before, okay, before like global warming got worse and they would have like blizzards and like snowstorms and you'd get a couple feet of snow, like four feet of snow, which was like pretty standard.

But they were like, dude, a big storm is coming. And I was like, okay, like what do I need to, this is my first winter storm. Like how do I deal with this? And they're like, stock up on food. And I was like, okay. You would go to the grocery stores and this still happens here. If there's a, any type of weather prediction coming, grocery stores would be wiped out down white.

So you gotta get your groceries quick. 

J.R.: And 

Hannah: stock up. So that's the first thing that people told me about the blizzard. And that winter was so brutal because we had just walls of snow. I couldn't get to class for a few weeks, just walls of snow. Damn. And it wasn't melting, so [00:26:00] it was just there.

And I think that winter, the snow stayed we still had piles of snow until June. 'cause it was just like, damn June. So much snow. So much. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Hannah: But thankfully it hasn't ever gotten worse. It's only gotten warmer, which is like concerning. So winters have been very mild recently? Lately. We don't get a lot of snow anymore, but we used to.

J.R.: Okay. So that's not typical and but normally your winters over the past, since you've been there, haven't been as crazy. 

Hannah: Yeah. The last, I would say the last five years has been like pretty mild. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Hannah: Global warming. 

J.R.: I know. Even here there's no sense of stability or weather or like seasons, because you can have it freezing cold some nights in the summer, and then in the winter it's like just hot as fuck.

And you're like, what? Can we just have some sort of pattern pick that's like stable pick? I [00:27:00] know. Just be stable for like three months, please. Yeah. So that we can and then, yeah, so that's the, I'm like, I guess in California it is more stable compared to other more seasonal areas, but just I just, the random and unpredictability is what throws me off.

Because if you're expecting it, then you're like, okay, but if you're not expecting it, you're like, what is weather now? Yeah. 

Hannah: What do I wear? So do I bring it jacket? I know exactly what do I wear? Do I wear shorts? Yeah. 

J.R.: I'm not gonna lie, I have a whole wardrobe in my trunk, because I don't know if I'm gonna need an umbrella, like a winter jacket or shorts or, that's like a very 

Hannah: common California thing, I feel like.

J.R.: Yeah. So yeah. And then not only that, but like I have friends who vastly under prepare for cold weather because understandably, California's SoCal. Yeah. So I have four jackets. I have four jackets in my trunk for when I know people are gonna forget. I'm like, okay, you're, and you just lend them out.

I lend them out. I like, the last winter I went to a, we were at a dance filming, right? Mm-hmm. And I have three or four littles who were there, none of my jackets. It was like the coldest nighttime [00:28:00] filming we had. And I'm like, all right, I got a blanket. I got three jackets. What do you guys need?

So they were all just wearing my clothes. It was funny. 

Hannah: It's just a whole JR. Closet in your trunk. 

J.R.: Exactly. They're like, turn around. They're like, why is everyone, why do y'all look like him? And I'm like, it's 'cause they're all my jackets. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, yeah, yeah. What is crazy. It's 

Hannah: definitely getting weirder weather-wise and in the world.

So 

J.R.: yeah. Anything else in Boston or things that you've gotten used to or maybe have not gotten used to yet? 

Hannah: Driving. Driving is really tough here. I think it took me a solid year to really get comfortable driving here in the city. But I'm definitely a much better driver. Just like, 

J.R.: is it just they're aggressive?

Or aggressive? What is it? 

Hannah: Unpredictable. And also there's a shit ton of potholes here, so, oh, I see. 'Cause like the salt that we use to melt the snow it erodes the roads. And so a lot of, like Boston is doing road repairs all year round. And so like [00:29:00] potholes are a big issue here. I've fucked up my tires in my rim because of potholes.

So you have to be sharp and make sure you're avoiding potholes. So driving is something that I've definitely gotten used to. I think this whole, like with the weather stuff too, like our collective behavior changes because of the weather. So in the summer people go like ham, so my summer is usually so packed.

People are like, it's nice outside, we're gonna do shit. And so every, if you have an ounce of extroversion in you, that comes out in the summer, and so the summers are like jam packed. And then you have you do summer activities and you have fall activities, and you have winter activities.

So that, it's actually pretty cool in which I really appreciate about the seasons because there's something for each season and it allows you to look forward to something that you couldn't do or like you reserve for a certain part of the year. So it keeps your interest [00:30:00] going. If you have a DHD, it's like nice 'cause you're like being stimulated along the year, 

J.R.: nice. I like that. So it's like you don't always get to have this thing. And so now you're looking forward to it at the end of the year or whatever. Yeah. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

J.R.: So it's like not available. So now you've covet it more. I like that. Yeah. 

Hannah: Yeah. So I actually really appreciate seasons. People are, people told me that or asked me like, Anna, why did you, who came from San Diego?

Why did you move? Why did you move to Boston? But I like seasons because in San Diego you could do whatever you want whenever you want. And that doesn't really create a sense of urgency or like a sense of commitment, whereas here you're like, it's so, it's a nice day. We gotta do shit.

We gotta be out in the water, yeah. We got a picnic, we gotta take a road trip right now. So it's, I like it. It's nice. 

J.R.: I get that same vibe for people who I've met, who live out in Washington, Seattle. Mm-hmm. Where, you know how it's mostly cloudy, rainy, or whatever, and then there's two weeks of sunshine or something like that.

Yeah. And they go crazy let's go out. [00:31:00] 'cause normally they're inside playing board games or doing whatever. Yeah, 

Hannah: yeah. 

J.R.: Which is, and it's so, it's cool. But it's funny because ironically I like rainy weather and I like staying indoors. Yes. So the couple times I visited when it was sunny out, I was like, damn, where are the rain clouds?

I was promised I, where's the gloom? And everyone's like, let's go outside and get the sun. I'm like, I have plenty of sun in California. I don't need that right now. I want fucking rain. 

Hannah: I know. And I don't think like a lot of east coasters understand this type of concept of some, I lived in California for 24 years, and yes, stability and like predictability, consistency is nice, but it's also fucking boring. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. It's, 

Hannah: it's the same. It's the same. And yeah. Some people might crave that, but I feel like when you're young, when you're in your twenties and your thirties, you're like, you want to fill your life with some stuff, some variability, some variety. Yeah. 

J.R.: Exactly. Want to change it up with the weather. I feel like my [00:32:00] last thought on that is I've always romanticized living in a place like Boston where it has very seasonal mm-hmm. Time period. And I know it's uncomfortable 'cause you gotta get used to it. Mm-hmm. But I guess again, growing up in California where it's mostly just sun, some rain here and there.

Yeah. Or whatever. Which is why I've always wanted to live in Washington. Especially because I do love rain. I love rain too. So I'm like, okay. I, yeah. I fantasize living in a place that's mostly cloudy and, or maybe if it's a place that has snow, I'm like, all right, I'm sure it'll suck because it's just inconvenient.

Mm-hmm. But I think like you're just saying, I think I crave that variability and Okay. Looking forward to seasons. Yeah. So we'll see. Maybe you could, maybe I'll be moving out somewhere. Yeah. That 

Hannah: activ be in different times, so. 

J.R.: Exactly. Yeah. We can always, I know I have friends who drive up to Big Bear or they'll do whatever, like winter.

It's sports the same though. Bear. It's not the same. Yeah. I can. I know. So at least you can kind of get some things here and there. And then you have the ocean over there. Great. I get it. But I'm not even an ocean guy, so why am I even here 

Hannah: say, they're like, oh my God, I think I, [00:33:00] you must have been like going to the beach all the time.

I was like, rarely. It's too hot. The sand. It's too hot, it's too crowded. Parking is ass. No, 

J.R.: exactly. Exactly. I only go to the beach when other people wanna go. Yes. And it's just like a social thing. And I'm like, but I would never choose to go here. Wow. But to each his own, yeah. 

Hannah: I've come to move to Boston.

Yeah, 

J.R.: I know. No, I'm honestly, I'm not considering it more after this just moving somewhere, honestly. But we'll see after I finish this whole dance team stuff, 'cause that's what's been holding me back. I, on the topic of I guess hobbies and different things. Mm-hmm. So the two other things I wanted to bring up was Berry's Bootcamp and pickleball.

What do you wanna start with first? 

Hannah: We'll do berries because it's a short, easy explanation. So berries is it's a HIIT workout class, right? So they have these for 

J.R.: masochists. Yeah. 

Hannah: Basically, dude, I recently found out that I am a masque. I like, I like struggle and pain. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. It hurts so good.

[00:34:00] Yes. 

Hannah: It's the Asian in me, I guess. I don't know. Anyway, so you're in this, what they call a red room because the lights are red for, to be easier on your eyes. Red is like the color that you use to be easier on your eyes. So you go into this red room, they have like mats, right? And on these mats, so how do I explain this class?

So if the class is full, you have people on the mats, which is what we call the floor. And then we have a row of treadmills in the back, which is what we call treads. And so if the class is full, you'll have both people you'll have people both on the floor and on the treads. And you switch throughout the class.

So basically on the mats you do strength training. So you, do weight and the instructor will give you instructions on how to. Two weights, and then you'll usually switch at least you'll do two rounds of each station. So two rounds of mats, two rounds of treads, and that's a whole hour, right?

You go back and forth. Sometimes they do three rounds, which is rough, but mostly the time it's two. So it's a hit [00:35:00] workout because you do strength training and then you mix it with cardio and then come back and then cardio, and then that's it. And so it's like a really good workout. It does test you.

It, it is brutal. You have to dissociate in that hour to get through, but once you get through, you feel really accomplished and you just feel like so good about the day and you know what you've done for yourself. And the, I've gone to multiple instructors and coaches and they're all like, so like supportive, like they're like supportive coaches.

And so it's really nice. I highly recommend if you ever want to increase your cardio cardiovascular. Mm-hmm. Heart health. 

J.R.: Yeah. I'm curious, have you ever done any other HIIT workouts or like studios like that? Because I've done a few in Irvine and Newport Beach with like old coworkers and stuff.

Mm-hmm. So I know I get the vibe. Mm-hmm. But I know studios are different. Yeah. Have you ever done other ones? And if you have, what is the difference that makes Barry's Bootcamp different, if any? [00:36:00] 

Hannah: Haven't, but my friends have done five. And then Orange Theory, I haven't heard too much about Orange Theory, so I can't speak to that.

But five is a circuit. So they do they have a tread, they have weights, and then they have like other, like ellipticals or something like that, like other machines that you rotate through. And like people like that. 'cause it's like more variety. I say the reason why people like berries is because well one, they have a shit ton of studios.

And two, I think like they offer a lot of variety for people who are looking for just like a nice easy place to start for HIIT workouts versus I feel like circuit training you have to know each machine and how to use those machines. I see. Versus hey, you just lift weights and you run, so it's, mm-hmm.

It's just like easily digestible. Like you don't have to use your brain at all. And their rooms are huge and so like a lot of people can go all at once. 

J.R.: Yeah. [00:37:00] Okay. So you would, you're, so you're saying that compared to other hit or circuit training, there's less learning curve movements or variety?

So learning curve. Okay. So it's like easier to pick up for, let's say beginners or people who just want to like lock in and not have to think about their form or doing special movements? 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I feel my, I feel like people. Consider CrossFit, but like I feel like there's such a huge learning curve for CrossFit versus if you're gonna berries, it's just weights.

It's just weights and treadmill. Yeah. So it's just like easily digestible I think. And you still get a good workout. And I feel like it's not necessarily for people who are like athletic or like gym bros. Therefore your like everyday average people who like go into the office and wanna get a workout because they sit at a desk all day.

You know what I mean? Versus I feel like CrossFit or circuit training is for people who are like, have particular fitness goals. You know what I mean? Yeah. 

J.R.: Mm. Okay. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. So what do you like about a [00:38:00] particular, so you said you're a masochist. You like disassociating, I'm just kidding, but, and it's simple and anyone can pick it up.

Is there anything else you particularly like about this cult? 

Hannah: I dunno, I feel like it's just like easily accessible and the people are always really friendly and supportive. I feel like I'm doing an ad for Barry's Barry's shout out. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. 

Hannah: But I think it's just it's just so once you get into the routine, like it's hard to stray away from that routine.

So I've never really tried any other studios they have, 

J.R.: but it works for you and you like it. It works for you, it works for you and for, and you like it. Right. Works for you. I like it. 

Hannah: Yeah. And I usually work out in the mornings. I also go to Pilates and Pilates is also really fucking hard. If anything, that's where the mask crisp really shines because you're like ripping muscles and like tearing muscle fibers in Pilates.

So, but anyway, I like to do it in the mornings 'cause like I'm not fully awake yet, so I'm not like consciously aware of how tired I am and how hard these things are and, but then like you feel really accomplished afterwards and then you're, it like sets the tone for the rest of the day. 

J.R.: Yeah. [00:39:00] Yeah. I think when I did those circuit studios or whatever back in the day, it was always mornings that I do with my coworkers before work.

And yeah, it feels really good because you get this intense workout beginning of the day it's done. You feel good, you check a lot of boxes. You got your cardio and your strength and I think my position on fitness, I just do regular strength training at the gym like four days a week.

But I think for anyone who's trying to get into fitness, it's whatever. You enjoy that? Mm-hmm. With retention is the most important. Yeah. Like no matter what you do, yoga, Pilates, mm-hmm. Circuits, gym. If you enjoy it and you can keep going, that's what's important. It's not necessarily like this is the panacea for everyone or the silver bullet.

No, definitely. Just do whatever keeps you active.

Hannah: Yeah. And I think classes are a really good one for folks who have a hard time with motivation because you have to sign up and then you can't cancel within 12 hours. It's accountability. Yeah. Before the class. Otherwise you pay like a hefty fee.

It's like $40. Damn. If you cancel or don't show and like my chief ass isn't paying $40 for [00:40:00] nothing. You know what I mean? I know. So like it definitely keeps you accountable. It definitely motivates you to go versus I've had gym memberships, I never go, 'cause I'm like, eh, I don't have to.

I'm paying the same whether I go or don't,

J.R.: exactly. There's no accountability. Yeah, I get it. That's the same reason why for the last two years I've had a fitness coach and it's not because I dunno how to work out, but it's, 'cause I told him, I was like, I'm literally gonna pay you to make sure that I like come check in with you for my workouts.

But also like my diet because he would, I would have to check in with like, how did I do with my macros this week? Yeah. And I would have to say, no, I cheated this week. Like I didn't hit all of what I was supposed to and I know how to do everything. And I have the discipline too, which is so nice. But I was like, I'm literally just 

Hannah: keeping you accountable.

Yeah.

J.R.: I'm checking. 'cause I know I have to check with him at end the week and it's like he costs five times more than my gym membership. But if I actually do it, it's worth the price than a gym membership that doesn't gimme the results. Right, 

Hannah: right, right. Exactly. It's worth accountability's huge. It's worth the, you pay [00:41:00] for the accountability.

Huge. 

J.R.: Exactly. If I paid, paid, like paid like three years worth of gym membership. Exactly. If I paid three years for gym membership, but then I don't get the results. But if I pay for one year of coaching and I get the results, what is actually worth it? Yeah. So same thing I like with any accountability.

I think in the realm of habits and new disciplines and things we should be doing. If you're having trouble with sticking to something, I think finding accountability is usually the best place where I start. A hundred 

Hannah: percent. That's worth the investment for sure. 

J.R.: Yeah. Okay. So is that all on Barry's bootcamp?

So what about pickleball? So this is, again, we talked about this off camera. Yeah. But I'm just so curious about the phenomenon. I go to this park where I walk around and people are playing pickleball for like six hours straight, even past, so sunset set do, it's so easy. It's so easy to play. So much a long time.

I've, I have friends who like, don't really do anything and they get into pickleball. And like I mentioned, I've had a guest who wears pickleball, athletic wear, and her friend has a company that she started that's just around pickleball and all their content is around pickleball. And so I, there's definitely a trend and [00:42:00] like a hype around it.

Like how did you get into it and what do you think is so catchy about it? Because for me, like I mentioned, it just seems like on the spectrum of in between table tennis and tennis. So like why is that so different than the other two? 

Hannah: Yeah. So how did I get into pickleball? I don't know. My friends started playing and then they were like, yo, we wanna play.

And I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll play. And I think for me personally, the initial interest is because I used to play tennis. I grew up playing tennis. For a few years. I actually wanted to join the varsity tennis team in high school, but a month's a no. So I didn't, she was like, study, yeah. Do music instead. So I did marching band.

But anyway, so I think that it was like the nostalgia of tennis, but it's easier. So tennis is a grueling sport because the court is big and the racket is, has some weight to it and the ball has some bounce to it. So you're, it's active cardio and your knees and your elbows and your shoulders [00:43:00] get a pretty big workout for a pickleball.

The court is much smaller, the net is a little bit lower, and the paddle is light. The ball is light. It doesn't bounce as bouncy. It's not as bouncy. And so it's just like a lot easier of a game to play, which is why it's considered an old person sport because it's like everything is just shrunk down, essentially.

I can't speak to the ping pong side of things 'cause I don't play. But I think where the table tennis comes in is like the technique of the paddle, right? So if you're trying to put spin on it, if you're trying to do some nasty trick with it, like I think that's where table tennis comes in.

Versus the cardio part of it. And like the movement on the courts and the strategy on the court. It's more like tennis, right? Where the movement is like more. More table tennis, I guess. So I think the hype is because it's an easy sport to pick up and it's an easy [00:44:00] sport to play. And it's an easy sport to continue playing.

And because it's an easy sport, you can get a lot of your friends to come play. Versus with tennis, you need to know someone who knows how to play tennis to then go play tennis. You know what I mean? I see. You need someone to have invested in time to take like tennis lessons to then have a good rally like a game.

You need at least one other person. But playing singles is, it's a lot. It's a big workout. So if you wanna play doubles, you need at least three other people that know how to play tennis than to play with you. But that again, is like a, you have to be personally invested in knowing how to play tennis, to learn how to play tennis, to then go with your friends to play tennis.

Because there evolves it, there's technique involved, pickleball ball. Yo, you could just be hitting the balls. You know what I mean? And I think because the learning curve is, it's just like easier to pick up. And even for the most least sportiest person could play. And so you can [00:45:00] get like hoards of people to play and I think that's the draw.

It's like the community aspect of people can easily play with you if you're good, if you're bad, if you're mid, it's fine. Like you will have a good time anyway. And I think it's like easier to get better at the more you play. So I think that's the draw. It's like you could play with a lot more people and like it's fun people, like I always walk away like belly laughing about something 'cause something happened on the court and it's just so funny.

J.R.: Yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying. It's like a low, lower bar of entry. Yeah. And it's easier to do not as physically taxing as, let's say, just tennis. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

J.R.: So it's more accessible and it's more communal because you can get more people into it. Yeah. So it's like a bigger pool. Yeah. That makes sense. But what about compared to let's say like racquetball or badminton? Mm-hmm. Where it's again, on that spectrum of not as maybe as strenuous as tennis, but on a smaller scale. Do you think it's different in some way? 

Hannah: Again, I've never played racquetball. I [00:46:00] used to fuck around with badminton, but I still think you still need a certain skill set to play those specific sports.

I don't know if anyone has played badminton, but it's like actually really hard to get good at. You could just lobb it. Sure. But that's not necessarily fun, so I think that's just what it is. I think it's just like easy to pick up really quick from the beginning.

J.R.: That makes sense. I think my own 2 cents is I think those other sports besides tennis, it requires like a court. Or like a specific sort of like racketball, you need to be in a racketball court to play that. Yeah. Yeah. That one's very specific. Yeah, exactly. Whereas like I think pickleball, like people just use these small courts, like outside of the park or something.

Yeah. Or just like a, and yet like a little net. Mm-hmm. Or whatever. Yeah. So I guess it is more, what's that word? Like you can just play transportable, not almost anywhere. Transportable. Yeah. It's a little bit easier than a sport that requires a lot more equipment and like a specific setup. Or courts. 

Hannah: I've [00:47:00] had a cabin trips where we had the portable pickleball net and we just got chalk and drew the court wasn't pretty Okay.

So you just get like a, but like, yeah. Yeah. You just, it's so like an asphalt 

J.R.: or like an open area. 

Hannah: So yeah. You can't really do that with that Makes sense. 

J.R.: Right. Or any of these other ones. Okay. All right. Well, thank you that I am now considering it more. I was just trying to, what I was really looking for was a sales pitch, because I am not, I have this weird aversion to hype, so when there's something that's trendy mm-hmm.

I stay away from it because I'm like, all right, I'm gonna wait till this dies down. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like K-pop demon hunters. I'm not watching it for a few months because everyone telling me to watch it, so now I don't watch it. So Surpris knowing 

Hannah: that you do K-pop content. 

J.R.: Yeah. That's the, well, that's the thing is I'm not really into K-Pop.

I'm just in the community and especially, hi okay, I dunno if you know this, do you know Black Pink? Yeah. And do you know my favorite artist is Rose. I went to 

Hannah: their concert. 

J.R.: Oh, nice. Couple 

Hannah: weeks ago. 

J.R.: So my favorite artist is Rose. Mm-hmm. And like when her album came out, I did not even listen to it for the first two or three months because everyone was hyping it up.

Yeah. I'm like, [00:48:00] she's already my favorite artist. I will get it eventually, but the fact that you're telling me to listen to it makes you not wanna listen to it. 

Hannah: Leave me alone do anyways. 

J.R.: That exactly. That's just my weird old man quirk, I guess is No, I totally get it. I'll jump on the, so yeah, I just wanted the sales pitch and so I, I'm now intrigued, so maybe I'll pick it up eventually, but we'll see.

Hannah: Yeah, the only thing with pickleball is that it can get expensive. So you don't have to invest if you just wanna play for fun, but if you are a little bit more competitive paddles are expensive. They're like 200 bucks plus, and I know it's kind of crazy and you're supposed to replace 'em every so often because the tech in the paddle, I don't know, you could wear it down, or I don't fucking know.

But it can get expensive. So there's like regular, just like average people paddles, and then there's like really, really good paddles. So if you ever, if you play pickleball, like you can definitely, it's like very low cost. You can definitely play it that way. But if you ever get [00:49:00] moderately serious about it.

I would definitely invest in a nice pickleball paddle because it'll level up your game and maybe even make you like it even more. 

J.R.: Yeah. Okay. So then Hannah, what is your level of, in how into it are you, are you the 200 paddle or are you in between somewhere? 

Hannah: No, I definitely have, I have nice battles.

J.R.: You're like, that's me. 

Hannah: I'm part, I pay a membership for a Boston Pickleball club here. They have two big warehouses that they converted into a pickleball course. Into a pickleball court. 'cause it's important here. 'cause we're not all season proof here in, in Boston. So, so, during the winter we used to play a lot 'cause what else do you have to do in the winter when it's cold?

So we have a membership there and we go play there in the winter. We play three times, at least three times a week for like three hours each time. It was a, it's a great workout. It was a great workout, a good sweat. But it definitely racks up in like fees, like court rental fees, [00:50:00] membership paddles, but I, we are committed so we, it's like our hobby.

J.R.: Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. I've seen too, like some of my friends who go to these courts that were built out specifically, but they're like community centers, like they have restaurants inside and things like that. I'm like, damn, this is bougie. Yeah. Like it's nice, it's an actual, like a big warehouse full of courts, but also like it has different things inside.

Hannah: Wow. They take it very seriously over there. Yeah. 

J.R.: I'm like, no, very seriously. Yeah, no, for real. That's why I'm like, what is this hype? I need to figure this out. But cautiously,

Hannah: it's fun. It's something to do. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. Okay, so that was a 55 minute intro, but it was a lot of fun.

Yeah. Let's move into, okay, now let's go back in time. I wanna touch on like our college years, UCI. Maybe this will just be a little bit a smaller of a topic, but I wanted to ask about if you had any fun or interesting [00:51:00] stories from CASA or imo, but the main question I wanna get into is like how your life has changed compared to 15 years ago when we were in college.

Hannah: Mm-hmm. I 

J.R.: guess we can start there. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

J.R.: Anything come to mind with our dance experience? 

Hannah: Honestly, like I don't remember much about Casa 'cause I was like fucking 16 years ago at this point now. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Hannah: I do remember it being grueling, but really fun. I remember when David ate shit on that flip. Do you remember?

That's, wait, what comes to mind? 

J.R.: That was our year. 

Hannah: That was our year. Yeah. He was he does a flip in one of the sets on our dance-off set. And during practice in the parking garage he did a flip, but he under rotated and just fell on his face and he had a gash on his like upper lip. I don't know if you remember that.

J.R.: I vaguely remember this. But this was during practice, not like this 

Hannah: was practice. Yeah, do, 

J.R.: yeah. Yeah. So what did he do after that? Did he still do the flip? 

Hannah: So like, it was best the final and it was like bleeding. And so I [00:52:00] remember Jeff, yeah. Jeffrey Gin. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Hannah: Was like, holy shit. So I think either wasn't me, I forget, but someone got ice for him and we had to like, it was a whole like triage or his face.

But I think he stayed for the rest of the practice. Like he was such a trooper. He like ended up like continuing practicing, I think. But 

J.R.: did he end up doing the flip in the final set? He did. I forget. I think. Okay. I'm pretty sure he did. So that was just like a, he just didn't make it that time. But he still ended up going through with it.

Hannah: I'm pretty sure it was because like we, it was like we were tired and you know when you flip, you when you're tired, probably under rotate. You know, 

J.R.: you're like, you probably don't get as much height as you need or as rotation as you need. 

Hannah: Exactly. You know, 

J.R.: physics. 

Hannah: Yeah. 'cause constant dance off was brutal.

Brutal. Yeah. 

J.R.: I just remember being sick constantly. Yeah. And I don't mean, I don't mean kept getting sick. I meant I was sick for like six weeks straight. Straight perpetually. Perpetually sick. Like I did not get any [00:53:00] sleep. Yeah. And yeah. And I was like, and then when I finally got better after 6, 7, 8 weeks, I was like, wow, this is what it's like to feel healthy again.

That's crazy. 

Hannah: For real. Yeah. Yeah. Casa, I mean I remember the competition and that was fun. 

J.R.: Yeah. We won. So 

Hannah: I remember being harassed and, what's that word? 

J.R.: For what? Or by whom? 

Hannah: During practice. 'cause we weren't like going full all out enough. And so remember just by our, by our own staff. Remember we were like, we were late for something late for practice because of something.

And Jeff made us run around laughs and then rk, all my memories are like painful memories. 

J.R.: And now you pay to have masochistic experiences. This is where it all began. You're like, it's just comfort is just so better than it's just what I'm used to Now. I run laps for fun. But 

Hannah: it's true JR. Because okay. So, Casa was the one thing, but imo, right? So imo, obviously Jeff coming from Casa, he like made the schedule and stuff. But like we continued that. So, I was director [00:54:00] for gen two and three and we continued with four to six hour practices, like multiple times a week.

And that was just the norm at UCI. And like pulling all those, all niners and putting so much energy into those practices, like I think you get used to a certain level of suffering, you know what I mean? For so many years, for four years, and then I actually helped with another dance team out here in Boston College.

I don't know if you knew about that, but there's a, so when I moved to Boston I reached out to the undergrad KSA, so Korean Student Association here in Boston College. My, I couldn't find a graduate equivalent, so I reached out to the undergraduate president and I was like, Hey, do you have a grad school student equivalent?

They're like, nah, yeah, but they're all fobs, which they were. But then he connected me, he found out from my Facebook Pro profile that I was a dancer and I was a director, so he connected me to their dance team. So it's kind of like, connect, you know how Irma was under connect. Yeah, [00:55:00] 

J.R.: yeah, yeah. 

Hannah: So KSA had Arrow K, which is Korea, backwards, and they had their own like cultural, like hip hop dance team.

And so they asked me to consult and then eventually they just asked me to join, be the director. So I was director for both years of my grad stu grad program. So for two years. And Yo Boston, like Boston College people are so different from UCI 'cause UCI, you know how like students at UCI aren't necessarily there for the academics, they, like to fuck around, to get into dance and stuff and other clubs and shit.

BC students are very serious. It's a private school, right? They're very serious about their academics. And so when the practices had to be capped at two hours because the Wow. The teammates were like, that's a warm up. We have study. I know, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. They're like, we gotta study. We got academics, we got work to do.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, vibes are very different. [00:56:00] And they're like, no more than two practices, two hours each. And I was like, interesting. Interesting. We did have hell weeks, but like it was a struggle. It was a struggle. Yeah. 

J.R.: So I'm assuming Dan's quality is obviously different than 

Hannah: It's different. Yeah, for sure.

The caliber is just because they're so invested in their studies 'cause they're paying like fucking. Tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition. I get it, you wanna invest in your city. So it was more of a, it was more balanced, I would say, than the UCI, students who didn't care about their academics as much.

J.R.: Yeah. Wait, so sorry, this was like a graduate students or undergraduate? No, 

Hannah: this was undergrad. So I was the only grad student. 

J.R.: Oh, okay. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. 

Hannah: Yeah, that 

J.R.: interesting. It was very interesting. Wait, so why did you, why did you do that? What was the motivation, becausecause, you were asked or kinda was 

Hannah: missing?

I was missing like imo, right? Because after being part of IMO for three years and being director for two years and then kind of being a [00:57:00] groupie for during gen fourth gen, right? I think I was just like missing dance as part of my life. And I think that was the only, that was the thing that was, I was like familiar with when I moved to Boston.

And so I was like, I'll just go towards something that feels familiar to me in a city that I don't know with people that I don't know, in a culture that I don't know. You know what I mean? And so I just gravitated and it just like felt more like home, so I think it really helped with my adjustment to East Coast.

But yeah, that was an interesting time, but. I don't remember. I remember more of IMO stuff than I remember of a Okay. Probably. 'cause we spent way more time with with each other in ibo. Yeah. 

J.R.: Obviously. Yeah. 

Hannah: But I would say like some of my favorite memories was the photo shoot on the train where we got in trouble by the police.

We got, the cops called on us because we were like trespassing on private property. And I was like, oh, I didn't know this was private property. And the cop was like, what? Cut the shit. Gimme your id. [00:58:00] And I remember ETH was our photographer and he was like, dude, am I getting in trouble? I'm going to grad school.

And I was like, chill. I'm gonna grad school too. It's fine. We're not getting arrested. We're just like, we're just getting warned to get a get off the property. But I'm so glad we got that photo on the train. 'cause it's fucking epic. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Hannah: With the LA downtown LA in the background. So that was a really good memory.

And the one random memory that I have was, I don't know if you were there, but we were having practice randomly in the fucking garage. And for some fucking reason we were probably delirious. We just decided to fit fucking 10 people in my small Yes. I remember 10 day Sonata sedan. And everybody was like, someone was on my dashboards.

Like people were like under each other, over each other. And I'm like driving five miles per hour through this parking garage. And I was like. Why did we do this? But honestly, that was like such a, that was so fun. That was the kind of shit that we got [00:59:00] into, and 

J.R.: why did we go into your, I thought it was like, in my head, maybe it was cold and we were just like, not sleeping, we're just resting.

Yeah. But were we driving somewhere? 

Hannah: I think, I think we were just bored. 

J.R.: Or it could just be boredom. Were we just moving your car from like, I think we were just first to second floor. I 

Hannah: delirious. Yeah. I think we were just delirious as we often were from the, so like, let's just, 

J.R.: let's just all pile into the car and just drive Fuck it.

Yeah. 

Hannah: And we fit that, that checks out. 10 people, 10 to 12 people in my car did. I was like, holy shit, I didn't remember that. I have a video somewhere. But it was like that type of shit that like, I really missed about the dance experience back in college. Yeah. It's just like those random moments where you're just like having the most random experience but you're like lashing your head off, yeah. Those are the days. Yeah. I 

J.R.: totally agree with that. I was, I gonna say well the question is, the two questions I had was how is your, well, I know your life is a lot different from then. Yeah. But I guess a better question might just be like, if you were to go back and [01:00:00] re-experience a time period or redo something, what do you think that would be?

Hannah: I just redo all of Il, maybe like second. Just all of it. Second, third, second, third. When I was director I think first year was a little rough 'cause we were just trying to establish something. Do you remember we used to practice at a church, a random church somewhere. Yeah. That was so random. No. 

J.R.: That used, that church became my church when it, so I go to Saddleback, they took over that building.

It wasn't the same church, but it was the same building. Yeah, same building. So whenever I would go there, so when I'd go there, I'd be like, dang, this is where we used to practice all the time. 

Hannah: That was so random. But 

J.R.: yeah. 

Hannah: Yeah.

J.R.: I mean we had a space, 

Hannah: It was nice. It was warm. 

J.R.: Yeah, exactly. That was what I was implying.

It was well lit. Like it's either that or outside. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. It was well lit and we had a space to practice where it was not freezing cold outside. 

Hannah: Yeah. About, go back, I think, I don't know. Yeah. I just really, really enjoyed the two years and I was like, director and like all those practices, late night practices where I got delirious and like just cracked out.

Oh yeah. We used to try, [01:01:00] use that term. Cracked out a lot and just had a lot of fun. That was a constant. Yeah. Yeah. And just feeling like that sense of like belongingness in a group, and just you know that you're making so many memories and like this is probably gonna be like one of the best times in your life.

I miss. Miss that. And I would wanna go back to that. Obviously life looks very different now with adult responsibilities and, more maturity. Do I do miss being a little immature in that way? Like squeezing fucking 10 to 12 people in my car. You know what I mean? Yeah. And maybe that's what I'm missing you.

It's just like that chance to be immature and that chance to be like a little crazy and a little cracked out and a little irresponsible, do you also remember we went to, our first year, we went to Chinatown for some fucking reason, and we squeezed six people in my car. Seven or eight people, actually.

Six or seven people. Why did you go to Chinatown? I don't know. We were just random. We randomly went and we went, we did the Hollywood walk the star walk. Do you remember? Okay. 

J.R.: Okay. Wait, [01:02:00] was this the same day, the day that I got my piercing? 

Hannah: Yes 

J.R.: or no? Okay. Yeah. This was right before I went to Korea.

Hannah: I don't know about that, 

J.R.: but 

Hannah: I just remember, no, it was, it 

J.R.: was because I wanted to get my ears pierced before I went to study abroad in Korea. Oh. And we went together. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I remember I was, and that started the tradition 

Hannah: of getting a piercing every year because I'm pretty sure I got sorry, I had my tongue piercing.

But then I had I got like so many other more ear piercings after that. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. So this was second year that when we went to rodeo, spring Quarter 

Hannah: Rodeo Drive, and then, 

J.R.: yeah. Mm-hmm. I remember that. 

Hannah: Rodeo Plaza. Rodeo Plaza. And we got the earpiece. Yeah, you're right. You're right. What a random time.

J.R.: Yeah. I remember that. I mean, I can't not remember my piercings. My first one. I was like, what do I do with this? But that was fun. I do now, I vividly remember the photos that we took 

Hannah: Yeah. 

J.R.: At the theater and like, like the Chinese radio drive theater 

Hannah: or something like that. Yeah, 

J.R.: yeah. The Hollywood Boulevard or whatever.

Hannah: Yeah. Something like that, dude.

So those are the times I miss not necessarily I do miss dancing and stuff like that, but [01:03:00] it's like those random ass moments where you're like, what the fuck? What kind of, what were we doing? But it was so fun. 

J.R.: Yeah. It's funny that since being on this team at UCLA, I can kind of experience that again, because they have their cracked out moments almost every weekend.

They're always out late, staying up late on a Sunday, and I'm like, dude, I got work tomorrow. Bill's still stay up. No, I got no. And then sometimes I do stay up until four just talking or hanging out, doing something like that. And then I pay for it for the next two days because that's how sleep works. But then now at this perspective, it's okay, I've been here before.

I see where this is going. I'm here just to experience and the vibes. Yeah. But I can't fully hang because they're gonna play, they're gonna do ALLNIGHTERS for the next, like five days straight. Yeah. Yeah. And not study and then cram the night before. Yeah. Where I'm like, all right, I'll give you one day and I'll, I wanna hang out and have this experience.

Yeah. But I can't do more than one day. Yeah. Because I just physically can't. 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. So it's, see, that's what I like the responsibility part. So like it within the 15 years. How has it been different 15 years [01:04:00] later? We have responsibilities. I have a mortgage to pay for. Like, yeah. I have, I have clients to see I need to be sharp for my clients, like I have, I got responsibilities, and I think that's the kind of, so sad, but I do miss like just being a child, and just being 

J.R.: a child. Yeah, exactly. Less responsibilities, but with the car so you can drive places.

So, yeah. 

Hannah: Yeah. 

J.R.: Exactly. If you could redo something or do something differently, like you go back to first year henna. Is there anything, not the spirit of oh, I loved how everything turned out, but more actually like, okay, I would probably do this differently. 

Hannah: Yeah. I think like first year or mo I think, so I was going through a pretty hard mental health like depression.

I was going through a pretty severe depressive episode during my sophomore year of college, and that's when Irma first began. And I think I definitely should have gotten therapy. I feel like that was something, not necessarily regret, but wish I could [01:05:00] have. It would've helped out done for myself.

Yeah. Because I kind of just just raw dogged it, I just had to go through the entire process of trying to like, heal myself. But it being like excruciatingly difficult. I wish I put myself through therapy and I wish I didn't feel so sorry for myself during that year.

'cause I was going through a bunch of like I was going through a breakup during that time and I just couldn't figure out where my place was during that time. And obviously Irma was like giving me this sense of belonging and community. But, I was still trying to work through my own stuff, like my own insecurities, my own identity and stuff.

And that was like the one that was causing the depression. And I was feeling like incredibly sorry for myself. And I think that didn't. I had negative consequences, like feeling sorry for yourself, like victimizing yourself a lot that had like negative consequences of people trying to support you, but then eventually being like, get a fucking grip and they're not wrong, but it didn't [01:06:00] help. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think I wish I, I reached out for more help. I think I would've really benefited a lot from that my sophomore year of college. 

J.R.: Yeah. That's a good take. I feel like a lot of people could relate to, especially in that time period of our lives. Like we just became adults first, second years of college.

And especially if you have things that you're going through, like particular to your situation, to your point, it always could help to ask for help or seek help and not try to just get through it on your own. Yeah. I think that's a good insight. 

Hannah: Yeah. That's I always appreciate when like my younger clients come in, I'm like, damn, I wish I had the wisdom that you are getting right now from me.

Age 18, 19, 20. 

J.R.: Yeah. You're like, yeah, you're gonna benefit from this for a longer period of time than I have. Yeah, 

Hannah: for sure. 

J.R.: Okay. If nothing else, I think that's great. Thank you for sharing that. I would like to now go. This is where we usually start the interview, which is your, your background. Where did you grow up?

Main influences, and then when you were a kid to teenager, what were your [01:07:00] aspirations? You wanna take it away? 

Hannah: Where do you want me to start? 

J.R.: Like where'd you grow up and what were your main influences? 

Hannah: Yeah. So I grew up in San Diego born and raised grew up in this small San Diego town called San Marcos.

And it was like literally the place was used to be a dairy farm, so it was like kind of rural part of San Diego. Mm. 

J.R.: Dairy farms and vineyards. 

Hannah: Yes. And horses, like literally horses. Sidewalks have dirt trails right next to them, like nice dirt trails for the horses. So you can kind of get an idea of like how rural it was where I grew up.

So that meant I grew up with a lot of white people, but I also grew up with a lot of Hispanic people and not a lot of Asian people. And so those were influences too. 'cause I never really flourished within like my own Asian identity until college UCI was a culture shock for me.

J.R.: Really? 

Hannah: Yeah, because I didn't grow up with a lot of Asians. The Asians that I saw were [01:08:00] like a handful of Vietnamese people from my high school and then church. And so when IGCI, I was like, holy shit, this is so many Asian people. And that's when I started really diving deep into my Asian culture and, letting it really flourish and being nurtured.

But yeah, I didn't grow up with that. So it was very whitewashed. Very conservative. 'cause I grew up in the church as well, two immigrant parents from Korea. So I lived a very sheltered conservative life up until college wasn't exposed to much. So I can't say I have had a lot of influences outside of

J.R.: those things.

Hannah: Yeah. Basically. So I was very sheltered. 

J.R.: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that, and this is just a question, do you think maybe being that sheltered sort of background once you go into college and then you had to experience all these things and you're coming of age and all that, do you think that contributed to that sort of depression that you went through?

A 

Hannah: hundred percent. A hundred percent. Because I went into college [01:09:00] feeling naively cocky about myself. I'm like, I know who I am. Like I, I know exactly who I am. I know all my identities. And then I got into a relationship and, college, it was just like a whole bunch of people that you're being introduced to.

And then. First year ended and it just shattered, with this breakup was the catalyst to all of that too. And it just shattered my idea of who I was because I was no longer the person that I was pre-college, but I also didn't know who the fuck I was after college, you know what I mean?

And I, not to say that like you're supposed to know when you go into college, like that's what college is for, but I think, I feel like I had a rough transition. It was just like I, I don't know, I felt like I was just punched into that, and so I, my depression definitely stemmed from like losing a sense of self, a sense of self that I had for, 17, 18 years and then fi like suddenly being thrusted into this new one [01:10:00] and not completely feeling settled.

I was feeling really unsettled about who I was becoming maybe or who I was going to be because I didn't know her yet. So, yeah, definitely. 

J.R.: Okay, so two more questions now is growing up younger, Hannah into college, what were your aspirations and two, as you were going through all this, and you're saying that, it's like a gut punch trying to figure out who you are, was there anything that helped you through that?

And maybe finding community and the dance community helped, but was there anything else that might have helped you navigate through that? 

Hannah: What was the first question? 

J.R.: First one was like, what were your aspirations going into college and high school and college or even younger? Hannah, like, I don't know, middle school, Hannah, any aspirations?

I aspired to be an astronaut or a princess or whatever. 

Hannah: So I wanted to be a psychologist. I knew I wanted to go into psychology and when I took my AP psych course in high school, junior year, so that's where it took me. But I was also really heavily involved in music. I was playing flute and piano ever since like second, third grade.

And I really worked [01:11:00] really hard to, I invested a lot of myself and my parents invested a lot of money into flute for myself. Actually back then, I wanted to be a professional flutist, Laus. 

J.R.: Laus. 

Hannah: Yeah. And my dream was to play in or orchestras that specifically on Broadway, like for musicals.

'cause I thought that was so cool, so fun, like live music to like a play, but obviously you have to be like cream of the crop type musician in order to be like that. And I was like, oh dude. Like I knew a bunch of music majors at UCI and they just fell out of love with their, like musical instrument over time because if you make your hobby or.

Job, you end up losing a lot of personal and investment into it because now it's just like monetary gain. It's something that you have to do, not something that you want to do. So I did want to become a Fuchs, but then decided that [01:12:00] one, it's not stable income. There's no guarantee that I would have a career off of it.

And two, I didn't wanna invest all that time to then have nothing. So I went into psychology and I had big aspirations. I was like, I'm gonna get my PhD, I'm gonna open my own practice. Like it's gonna be great. I did not get my PhD. I do not plan on getting my PhD because an extra six years. An extra six years.

And I've met people who've gotten their doctorate's degrees and dude, they're miserable throughout the entire time. And, there's not that much more benefit in getting your doctoral degree than getting your master's in terms of like clinical work outside of PhD will obviously get you a wider variety of job opportunities that you can teach.

You can consult and stuff. Like with my degree you can consult too, but like different degrees, whatever. But I was like, I just wanna do clinical work, so I don't, I didn't have to get my PhD, but yeah. But I, when I came into college, I was like, I'm gonna get my PhD. 

I don't have those aspirations [01:13:00] anymore.

J.R.: Oh, okay. So, at least, at least part of that, your career aspirations were more or less the same since high school? 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. Minus the music part, 

J.R.: right? Minus music part. 

Hannah: Yeah. So I've I don't know if it's like a blessing or a tragedy that I've had this like one path and I've kind of stuck to it, right?

Like part of me feels really lucky that I've had this path and it's been very straightforward and I went down it and I'm exactly where I thought I was gonna end up, right? And I'm pretty successful. So it's like great. And I, I feel really privileged. On the flip side, there's a part of me that's like, well, what if there was a different life, a different path that I could have taken that wasn't so academically focused or so like success driven, or money oriented or whatever. Not that, like I went into counseling for money. I really did not.

J.R.: Yeah. 

Hannah: But yeah, I have mixed [01:14:00] feelings about it. 

J.R.: Yeah. Makes sense. Because there's always the what if of the path not traveled. Mm-hmm. I think we can all, no matter where we end up in life, we can always have those considerations.

And I think now to your, I guess to your story, I think for me, if we get to where we are and we look back and we think. At least where I'm at now, I'm happy, fulfilled and I don't hate it. I still think that's a win. Obviously there's 20,000 other opportunities we could have had or maybe possibly if we weren't so focused.

But at least you're at a place where yeah, I actually like what I'm doing. It's not like I became a doctor, a medical doctor, and I hate it and I go do something else. Right. Right. So, but I think that's a good, I think other people have a different experience where they don't know for a long time.

Yeah. And they stumble upon it. So like you're saying, you were always this, but other people might be like that, like zigzagging. But yeah, I think, I feel like just for the audience, maybe it's, you don't know if your path is straight or crooked or zigzag, but it's like where you end up just look, [01:15:00] there's always a different alternative universe where you could have something else, but it's 

Hannah: what you make of it.

And like again, I think people can see my timeline and be like, oh my God, Hannah, you're so lucky. You knew what you wanted to do. And yes, I am lucky in that way. But the alternative perspective is but was I shutting doors, other doors that could have been just as fulfilling and fruitful or maybe something that was like life altering in a good way.

Right. If I didn't have the set path that I was going down, so it's grass is greener on the other side type shit. 

J.R.: Of course. Okay, well that, that kind of answers my next question was like, why CogSci psychology? Why masters in counseling, psychology? Yeah. So you were always down this path and I guess that was your trajectory, but maybe my next question would be.

What about psychology or the way your brain is wired, or what you're interested in or what you're good at, led you down to that? Let's say you had this self-awareness since high school and now that you're here, you're like, oh, I am made to do this. But I guess what elements of you and that [01:16:00] career field fit together?

Hannah: Yeah, so I think even before I took AP Psych, people always told me that I was a good listener. But I think this is an eldest daughter of an immigrant, Asian family complex. They actually have a term for this in Korean. It's called Kayton, which is the trauma of the eldest daughter. And it's so real.

This is actually one of the main topics, main issues that I serve with my clientele. Because if you're either the only daughter in your Asian immigrant family, or you're the eldest, or you take the role of the eldest, you might not be the eldest daughter, but you might take the role of the eldest daughter because we're so inundated with responsibility, responsibility of others, and care.

Service and care is really much embedded in our up upbringing. And that was definitely the case with me and my family. My mom would always, always guilt trip me not intentionally or maliciously, but she would [01:17:00] always guilt trip me and say you need to be a good role model and for her sister, you need to take care of her because like when I'm gone, when you know, mom and dad are gone who's gonna, who's gonna, all you have are gonna be each other, if your sister's not doing well, then you can't really be doing well, which is kind of true.

If your siblings not doing well, then like, how could you be living a good life? It's kind of true, right? So she would like always remind me of my duty and my responsibility to take care of my sister, not just my sister, but like the entire family, right? And so I think I naturally had this nurturing type vibe to me because it was socialized within me.

And then even like church, right? Church was like, girls are the ones who like cook and have all these like traditional like gender roles and you know what they would always assign me to like leadership roles and like the youth group. And I was like, I don't want this shit, but because I was the eldest, like girl, they [01:18:00] put me in that role, right?

And then mm-hmm. Obviously with the whole directorship and stuff like that, like it was just like very much the nurturing part. And so I think when it comes to like why psychology? It's because I was bred this way. So I had this revelation a couple years ago where I was doing my own healing, my own reflection and my own healing.

And I was like, you know what? I don't know if I would've become a therapist if I wasn't born in my specific Asian immigrant family. Take my brain, but put it in different body. I don't know if I would've become a therapist, right? Because I was nurtured to become a nurturing person. And people always told me like, Hannah, you're so good at listening.

You're so good at like giving advice. You're so good at empathizing and having compassion. It's well, yes, but also this was like the thing that was like praised within me and positively reinforced within me to [01:19:00] the point where, I became really good at those things. And those are my skill sets now.

And now I've monetized my skill sets, which is great, but I can't say, I can't say that I would've been a therapist or been interested in psychology in like human behavior if I wasn't taught to be hyper aware of people and what they do and have that sensitivity to others. You know what I mean?

So I definitely think it's like very cultural and maybe even really 

J.R.: interesting. So you're, you have, your self-awareness is, has led you to the fact of, you probably think most of this is nurture, like your upbringing culturally being in your family and that's why you are wired this way so to speak.

Hannah: I mean, obviously I think nature still has to have you need, you still need to have the foundation to be able to be this type of person. But I think because it was so heavily reinforced and it was something that was like, again, intensely praised, so in Korean we have this word called nci, and NCI is the hyperawareness and the sensitivity of others, right?

And [01:20:00] not only that, it's like you have NCI to then make other people comfortable, right? So you, if someone's in the room to have good nci, you try to see what the vibe of the other person is okay, that person seems like they're not in a good mood, so I'm not, I'm gonna sit here and be quiet because I don't wanna inconvenience or bother this person to then like trigger something.

You know what I mean? So it's always in the service of being sensitive and serviceing social 

J.R.: awareness. Yeah, 

Hannah: exactly. It's never for you. NCI is never for you necessarily. It's always about making the other person comfortable. Again, with that type of concept, like that was a highly, that was high praise.

It's high praise in Korean culture where oh, you have really good nci. That's praise. That's high praise. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Hannah: To be honest, like I do appreciate people with NCI because as a fellow person with good nci, you want other people to be sensitive and hyper aware of yourself 

J.R.: to reciprocate that energy.

Correct. 

Hannah: And [01:21:00] so I've actually had to walk away from a few people in my life who just could not match like minimum requirements of JI in my life because the awareness was just like not there and it was like stressing me the fuck out and was like a burden to me. And I was like, I can't do this. I have to walk away.

But anyway so back to your original question of what kind of led me down this path is I think I was just bred this way and I have mixed feelings about it. I don't necessarily hate it or resent it. But I don't necessarily, 

J.R.: it doesn't weigh you down. 

Hannah: It doesn't weigh me down necessarily, I would say, but it also makes me wonder, like I see 

J.R.: what 

Hannah: other kind of person could have been if I was, if my parents fostered creativity and imagination within me, would I be different?

And you'd be a professional. Exactly.

So who knows? Like I have like big interest in photography [01:22:00] and interior design. I'm actually taking a course in both right now. And it makes me wonder like, fuck, like maybe I am very interested in these things and I feel like I could have some skillset for these things. If my parents had only encouraged those types of creative processes, where would I be right now?

J.R.: Okay. So you said photography and, what was it? Interior 

Hannah: design. 

J.R.: Interior design. So you're taking classes on that? Mm-hmm. What do you, is it just chasing that curiosity? Yeah, just, just wanna learn or just Gotcha. Okay. And 

Hannah: maybe, maybe in the future I could offer design surfaces to therapists for their own offices.

J.R.: That's smart. So combining like a side hobby with your professional? 

Hannah: Yeah. Nothing that would take away like because I don't wanna like mon I don't wanna have to depend on design to, or photography for like my income, like my main income, but just to have a little fun [01:23:00] here and there and get some money for it, that I think that would be fun.

J.R.: Yeah. I ask because not necessarily everything that we're curious about. The implication when someone asks is, oh, are you planning on making money off of that? Otherwise you're wasting your time. Yeah. And obviously I don't feel that way. I think we should always pursue our curiosities, even for the sake of, it's something that fills us up.

Yeah, absolutely. Meaning like it's something that gives us joy and gives us energy for, let's say, our work that we may or may not love. But if you're doing this thing outside of work that you enjoy and not for the monetary or the getting something from it just because you enjoy doing it like an actual hobby.

I think that has tremendous value that I think people who might be focused on their career might undervalue a bit. And I get it. We need, we have different phases in their lives. We need to focus on something. Mm-hmm. But I think, like I would tell my younger self, like always chase those curiosities because you will never regret it and it might turn into something, it might not, but you'll never regret doing something you enjoy.

Mm-hmm. On top of, of course building a career in [01:24:00] financial security and stuff like that. But I think that's what I would tell myself. It's like lean into all these artistic, creative things. Even if the world is telling you don't do it and make money. 

Hannah: Yeah. Because it's not cool. It's always about making money.

It's about like what's fills your soul? What feeds it. What makes you want to be here? What makes you want to live your life, your existence. 

J.R.: Yeah. Because yeah, we can get hit by bus tomorrow and it's like, dude, I, you're gonna regret not taking a class. Yeah. 

Hannah: I literally say that phrase all the time to myself, to my, to my clients all the time.

'cause I'm like, yeah. Because I think it's true, yes, it's important to think about the future and be efficient with your time, but also like what that fucking matters. If you die tomorrow, you could have a stroke, you could have an aneurysm, like World War III could start tomorrow. Like you don't know.

You don't know. So live a little, live a lot. And I think this is also goes back to like why I would want to redo like my earn amount times. 'cause like we were just having fun, like shits and giggles for no fucking reason. Nobody had to be dancing. But we did,

J.R.: [01:25:00] yeah. None of us are professional dancers, really.

Like we don't do this as a career. We were doing it because we wanted to do it. Right. 

Hannah: Yeah, exactly. 

J.R.: Yeah, I think about that a lot because in some circles, let's say if you're really big into personal development or even just career focused, we're always thinking long term sacrifices now for the later.

And of course there's value in that because those do pay dividends when you do lock in and focus. But at the detriment of if you're doing it so hyper at that level, you're, you are ticking away from the present moment and missing the little small things that make life worth it. Mm-hmm. The things you enjoy, the hobbies, the friends being present, like when I had that reunion episode with my Kaba modern class.

And you know what we would go back and do would just be to be present with the people and connect with them and not be so busy with, oh, I have class tomorrow and this thing is coming up in my career. But really just being with people because at the end of the day, what is our life? But a collection of memories and relationships that we've had other people and those experiences.

Yeah. So yeah, we could get hit by a bus tomorrow. [01:26:00] Is all that savings in your career really gonna be worth at that point? But at least you can always do both. Balance it. Yeah. But don't forget that the present is all you really have. But of course still plan for the future, right? 

Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. There's a saying where God laughs at the fools who make plans and it's true because you we're very poor predictors of our future.

So it's always good to have ideas for the future and have goals and loosely work towards them, right? Loose goals and work towards them, but never to feel so locked into the point where you're trading your present for your future. A future that you aren't guaranteed. 

J.R.: You aren't guaranteed for sure.

Exactly. Okay, so now I wanna ask about, well now getting into your career specifically, but first, as someone who has never had a master's or gone through a program like that, what was that like? Was it super easy, you loved it? And then in transitioning into now your current career and your private practice, my general questions are maybe like, what was that like?

Biggest challenges? Anything you do differently? So if you wanna start with like grad first. Yeah. Grad school was 

Hannah: rough. So my program was like a three [01:27:00] year program accelerated into two, meaning that we had in between our first and second years, we had a full two summer courses two summer programs like that split the summer up.

So we didn't have a break in the two years that we were in this program. So we're just like back to back to back to back to back to back to back. So that was really rough. We didn't get any breaks really. I also feel like I dissociated during my master's program 'cause I don't have a lot of memories.

I'm like, dude, what did I spend my time doing outside of studying and like writing papers and doing internship stuff? Like I don't, I don't know. I can't tell you. So I feel like, so it was 

J.R.: a, it was a two year hit class. You were just disassociated for two years? 

Hannah: Yeah, basically because I was just running and running and running.

Running. Yeah. Basically 

J.R.: I'm seeing a, I'm seeing a trend. He, I'm seeing my 

Hannah: ordering, my ordering. I just got this and it like tracks your biometrics and I used to be, I used to think oh, I'm a person that like balances rest and like life really well no, my aura rings me like, girl, [01:28:00] recover.

Recover. Like you to recover, you slow 

J.R.: down. Yeah. 

Hannah: But anyway, your status 

J.R.: status is masochist. 

Hannah: Yeah, I know, right? Yeah. It's like, girl, you need some recovery days. That's girl prioritize and rest days. Yeah. Anyway, 

J.R.: okay. So yeah, two years. So 

Hannah: yeah, it was pretty rough. I would say it's just really intense.

'cause you have a lot of classes all at once and then you're like inundated with not just like theories and like foundation, but also like technique and application, which is like really a lot of information in a short period of time. And they really work it hard. Grad school is not for the week.

I don't wanna scare anyone who's thinking about grad school. It's still like a very fruitful, still late, it's still very fruitful if you are interested. But it is tough. Like it's just like a huge download of information all at once and a pretty short amount of period of time. I'll say the bulk of my knowledge today comes [01:29:00] from post-grad.

So a lot of foundational work was laid in my, grad school education, my master's. But once I graduated, that's where the bulk of my knowledge came from because it's by knowledge through experience, right? So I got my first job at a community mental clinic. Health clinic, meaning it's like a, it's a local mental health clinic and we serve the underserved.

So the people that you don't really think about on a daily basis, like homeless people, incarcerated people people who are low income people with severe psychiatric issues, medical issues, even people who have lost their children to DCF. It's just those types of people that I was serving. And I was there for four years and bro.

I didn't realize how traumatized seeing that experience was until I got out. Because within the first three months of me working, a client of mine had passed away from fentanyl overdose. And to this day, I don't know if it was an intentional overdose or not, [01:30:00] so it could have been suicide, but that was within my first three months straight outta grad school year.

And like in grad school, they don't teach you how to deal and cope with clients dying, let alone like overdosing and like committed suicide potentially. And so I was a wreck for a year after that. 'cause I was like, dude, did I miss something? Did I do something wrong? Could I have prevented it? All those like what ifs and like that guilt. But I lost four clients. So one each year I was there, a couple were through two two medical issues. But these were like severely ill people. And I worked with schizophrenics, I worked with like borderline. I worked with severely severe. Like it was a lot. It was a lot.

And I was being, getting paid nothing. But I got through because you're supposed to get accrued clinical post grad clinical hours for your licensure. So once you collect all those hours, which takes about [01:31:00] two to three years, you then take the exam and you have to pass the exam to then apply for licensure and then you.

Get your license. And so with within three years, I got my license and I stayed at the clinic for another year. And then I was just so unhappy. Like I was so unfulfilled. And I wasn't sure if like I was a, like a good counselor or therapist at all. Because when you're working with that type of population, there's only so much you can do to help these people.

And with homeless people I don't know if you know about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, but Maslow hierarchy of needs is a theory that you have to meet your basic requirements in order to move up the ladder. So the baseline is do you have a place to sleep tonight? Do you have food?

Do you have your medication? Do you have water? The basic necessities to life, the next tier is do you have stable resources to feed yourself every day? To shelter yourself every single day, to clothe yourself, to afford your medications, to, have a [01:32:00] job? Do you have stable like income coming in to be able to get steady resources to you?

So that's a second block. Those first two blocks were the hardest fucking shit to establish in that type of population. These are like incarcerated folks. These are people who are addicts. These are people who are homeless and low income, who are disabled, those two blocks. It was a miracle if you came into that clinic, but those two blocks already established and you were just here for like mental health, 

J.R.: mm. Like I had a bad day. 

Hannah: Yeah, exactly. Oh, I'm depressed because, like I went through a breakup. No. It was like, no, I'm fucking depressed. Right? Because my schizophrenic mom doesn't recognize me. Or I am hallucinating. I'm seeing that people are judging me and I'm like oh my God. It's a lot, or oh, I lost my kids to DCF because my ex-partner was caught doing heroin, and now we have to fight in court for our kids back. It's a lot of those things, so of course as an outpatient mental health therapist, I can only do so much and I can only have so much efficacy in [01:33:00] treating these types of clients without community supports and whole system structural changes to support these types of people in the community.

And so, obviously I didn't feel like I was a good therapist because like I wasn't getting good results necessarily. You know what I mean? And so was highly dependent on the community and the system, right? And so I almost quit, actually, I almost quit therapy. I almost went into hr 'cause I was like, fuck this.

Like I just want a desk job that pays well, that I don't have to do all this thinking and like mental gymnastics and work with these like severely ill people. Because I was also getting traumatized. I was hearing like, dude the stories I was hearing from these people were insane. It weighs so heavy on my heart. 'cause there it's just, they're just such painful stories. And I was like, HR sounds like the job for me 'cause I don't have to listen to those things anymore. But then my boyfriend, now husband, he was like, I don't want you to quit just yet. You should definitely quit your job, but why don't you make a push for private practice?

Because [01:34:00] I had been toying with the idea of private practice and ultimately that's where I wanted to end up. But for some reason, my own mental block told me that I needed to have this wealth of like years of experience to then have the credibility to have a practice. But that wasn't the case.

So I had a colleague who was going through a private practice, like transition at the time. And so I was like, okay, I'll just learn everything I can about her about her process to see then if it's something that I wanna do. So I, I learned a lot from her. And then I went, and then just through networking, just like random chance of networking, I happened to find other therapists that were renting out their offices in Boston to people like me who were like, just needing couldn't afford a full-time office but could rent for a day on the weekend or something like that.

Just to jumpstart their practice. So it was a random chance that I just met these people too. I was like, okay, well all these doors are lining up and. [01:35:00] It's up to me to push myself through these doors. It was like the scariest shit ever. 'cause I don't know, a business I never took a business class, right?

I don't know the legalities of having my own medical practice essentially. But I was like, but it's better than staying at this clinic. So I just leaned in. I just fell through and all these things came up. And I got my office set up, I got my legal documents set up. I learned about insurance, which took me like four months.

It's like a, insurance is a different fucking language and it takes you a while to understand like the nuances and the language of insurance. So that took me a while and I set up my marketing stuff and, all my like, tax ID and like stuff. And I was like, fuck. Like I hope I, I'm not missing anything.

'cause again, I never took a business course. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm just a therapy. I'm not just a therapist, just trying to open her own practice, and so I actually opened two weeks before the pandemic hit. 

Which is [01:36:00] wild because it was the perfect timing for me to open a practice, still working.

I was about to ask 

J.R.: was that a good or bad? 

Hannah: So I was still working my full-time job when the pandemic hit. But then I opened my private practice on the side one on a Saturday. Just a Saturday every week. And for six hours pandemic hit. And like people were coming in, right? Like people were, they were isolated.

Like we didn't know what was going on. A lot of anxiety, all that shit. And so people were like, there was a need for therapists and my practice filled up within three months. And so I quit my job. That, and that's like unheard of for a new practitioner in the private practice. It usually takes like few months to a year, to several years to get full cases.

But I also had a niche. My niche is Asian mental health, so we don't have a lot of Asian therapists out here in Massachusetts, so they all get funneled to [01:37:00] the 20 of us that are here. And so I got a lot of people coming in and so I end up being able to open my practice full time in June, and I've been doing that ever since.

So it's been five years. I've had a consistent, steady, wait list at one point. My wait list froze was like a year long. 

J.R.: Wow. 

Hannah: Right now it's about, it's looking about like six months. Yeah. So it's just been, it's just been running, just running, running, running. 

J.R.: Okay. I, that's crazy. I have a lot of questions.

One of 'em is so. Sorry. So during the pandemic, this was all like remote clients or were the people coming in still? 

Hannah: So I still had an office. I was still paying for like rental space and an office. So I still had a physical office, but it was mainly remote. I only had like a couple of clients come in, we were practicing like social distancing stuff during that time.

Eventually I gave up that office because nobody wanted to come in during their work hours. Like during because you have to commute [01:38:00] into the city to go to therapy. So many more people preferred virtual and it was like saving me so much more money to go fully virtual. So eventually I think I paid for an office for a year, maybe a little less than that, and then been fully virtual since.

J.R.: Okay. So now you're completely virtual. Next question is, so you said that you're, you had a niche. Mm-hmm. And then it got funneled to you, but I guess how did it come to you? 'cause I guess when you're starting on practice, it's the whole marketing and finding your clientele and how they reach out to you, whether it's SEO Google search or whether it's like ads on meta or something like that.

I guess how would you normally have found clients and then how did that change? 'cause you said it was funneled to you, so how did that process work? 

Hannah: So funneled meaning that Asian people are looking for Asian providers. So they were just naturally looking for someone that looked like me with my phenotype that they could resonate and relate to.

Rather than going to a white therapist and having to explain [01:39:00] everything like, context, right? Like cultural context to their white therapist. And I've had a lot of clients come to me after seeing white therapists. They're like, yeah, my therapist just couldn't understand. And there was just like, no relatability and you can only get so far.

And I'm like, it's totally correct. You want to find a therapist that has some type of relatability with you so that you don't have to explain everything. And there's just like a mutual understanding that, your therapist can empathize with a lot. There's therapy itself is like the most healing part of therapy is the relation piece.

So if you're unable to have a good relationship with your therapist, your therapist therapy progress can only go so far. And so deep, and so when I say funnel, it's because Asian people were looking for Asian providers and there's only like 20 to 30 of us here comparative to the hundreds and thousands of white people who are providers here in the state.

J.R.: How did they find you though? Was it [01:40:00] Google Circle referral? Yeah, so it was, it was referral 

Hannah: directory. So I got so I paid for a membership for Psychology Today, but I canceled my membership because it was. There was a, it was very problematic. It was very like white supremacist. Okay.

Like patriarchal Is that, 

J.R.: that's, that's problematic. What 

Hannah: it's like, it was just not very, it was just not doing very well. So I took myself off. I actually ended up being listing myself in a different directory that was much more multicultural and more welcoming and just not as white. And so I, I'm still, I can give you my website too.

I'm still listed there. And then I signed up to be listed on different Asian directories, like specific therapy directories for Asian providers. 

J.R.: Okay. So it's the, you were listing in those directories and that's how people found you? 

Hannah: Correct. Yeah. 

J.R.: Gotcha. Okay. The only thing that I pay 

Hannah: for is my the first directory.

J.R.: The first 

Hannah: that I'm on 

J.R.: the white supremacist one? No, 

Hannah: no. Sorry, the second one and then the Asian. Okay, gotcha. Asian [01:41:00] specifically ones are free. 

J.R.: Ah, okay. Oh, that's cool. Okay. I don't know if this is like trade secrets or anything like that, but what is your caseload like during the week or something?

Is there a standard and or is yours different? 

Hannah: There is no standard because everybody's stamina is different and I'm a bit of a masochist, 

J.R.: a a bit, just a little bit. 

Hannah: So I would say maybe people who work full time are most comfortable with like 15 to 20. I see. 25 to 30 per week.

Per week, yeah, per week. Which is about like, okay. And five to six clients per day. 

J.R.: And how long per client? One hour per like, oh, an hour. So an hour per client, maybe five-ish or so per day. And that could just be like however many days per week you want? 

Hannah: Yeah, and I work all five days, so. 

J.R.: Okay, nice. 'cause you're masochist nice 

Hannah: dude.

But don't be like me, anyone who's listening don't be like me because yeah, I actually had a lot of chronic mental not mental, chronic physical health issues come up because I was working so much. I had like neck issues, back issues, like shoulder issues and they were a bitch [01:42:00] to I paid so much money in like physical therapy.

So all I work to pay for physical therapy, like it was so fucking stupid. But I'm better able to manage my caseload and my energy now. I take far more breaks and vacations now I know what I'm burnt out now. So I actually took the last couple of days off 'cause I was like, I'm burning out so I need to like, take care of myself.

J.R.: Yeah, no, this is helpful because just for anyone curious, even myself included, of how like your work is scheduled in your own private practice. I guess my next question is what are the some of the biggest challenges that you face, having your own practice? Anything you do differently, but also. Being fully remote, I'm sure that has different challenges from being in person.

I dunno if you had any thoughts on any of those three

Hannah: biggest challenges is like not knowing the business legal side of it. Like I'm just, I mean, my dad is an accountant and he does my accounting for me, I just hope that I know it is convenient. I just hope that I am reporting everything [01:43:00] correctly. I, my dad's literally a tax professional, so I hope I can trust him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? 

J.R.: Like, dad, if I go to jail, it's your fault. 

Hannah: Yeah. Basically. Right. So that part is always nerve wracking because I am still medical at the end of the day. I'm still I still am responsible for people's health. And so even when people are, so if people are having a mental health crisis, right?

I have, I am a provider, I have to be responsible. I'm held liable to people's wellbeing, right? So that part I don't love. It's challenging to feel that liability of taking care of so many people in the health sphere, right? And being responsible for them in some. Capacity, right? Because I could get sued, I could be dragged to court, I can get subpoenaed, right?

For health records and stuff like that. I can get my license suspended for any malpractice, right? So it's a large liability that you take on and that can be like an emotional, spiritual burden [01:44:00] even if nothing has happened. You know what I mean? So the liability part, the business part, 'cause again, I'm not super familiar with just like how business works and shit.

Like, that is like my biggest challenge. But in terms of like emotionally, I would say just being able to brush off the day is like the, my biggest challenge of being like, I'm also not a trauma specialist, right? So I hear painful stories all day, every day. I would say like most days people are crying all day every day.

You know what I mean? 

Or I, every client is crying. So it's just a lot to hold. And emotionally it's a challenge to try to brush it off and I'm mentally drained 'cause I have to focus, right? Focus on every single word, every feeling that you're saying, every context I'm having to put piece things together and regurgitate it and then try to put in, into make sense so that I can give you a different perspective, right?

I'm doing that every hour back to back [01:45:00] five to six times a day. You know what I mean? I'm drained at the end of the day. I have to brush it off though 'cause I still have a life to live and that's the really challenging part. And then another challenging part is because I'm a SCUs and I'm self-employed, there's no one regulating me from overworking, and I tend to find that I do overwork myself a lot.

And so it's always a challenge to maintain my own boundaries for myself. I'm just not very, I'm not as good with it as I should be, but hoped I hope that I'd get better at it. 

J.R.: That's very insightful. Yeah. I was gonna say, because I can imagine for any standard person having to shoulder the burden of having to listen to these stories or these experiences, and that's your job to process that and help give them per some perspective, I feel like you'd have to develop some sort of skill of compartmentalizing or brushing it off, like you said.

I don't know if you have come across things that have helped you to do that. 

Hannah: Yeah, so there's definitely [01:46:00] techniques. So one you can do like a visual imagery. So this is also what I, so actually I have other therapists that come to see me for their therapy. And so they're always talking about oh, can you gimme strategies on how to compartmentalize?

And I say, okay, use this visual technique where you're wearing like a hazmat suit or like a. Just like a suit that where like anything that gets like splashed on, you're able to just take off the suit by the end of the day and you step out. So you're not carrying things with you. One thing that's really effective for me is that this is my office.

I only use this when this office, when I work. So this space is your 

J.R.: workplace. 

Hannah: Correct. And so I don't come in here 'cause I also have a personal laptop. I use my personal laptop out in the kitchen, out in the dining room, so if I'm like shopping or whatever, I go outside. I don't use this computer because this area is where I keep my physical boundary of a workplace so that [01:47:00] when I leave my room, my office, I'm not taking anything with you, with me because I'm out of office now.

You know what I mean? Which is really important. It's a actually a pro tip for anyone who's working from home. Have a designated area for work so that when you're out of that space, you're out of office. 

J.R.: Yeah. That's a good tip. Dang, I lost my train of thought. Why is it that other therapists come to you?

Is it because you have a specialty in helping therapists? No. Or are you just the therapist that people go to or, yeah, it's just like, they just think you're cool. I guess she's, she. She's a cool chick. Let me, let's, let me just go to her, but like, yeah. Why, why do they come to you? It's just, or is that a normal thing?

You guys go to each other? Yeah, we 

Hannah: go, we to go to each other, it's good to, gotcha. Okay. It's always good to have a therapist be in their own therapy because, I can't serve you if my head is not screwed straight. You know what I mean? And if I'm having like, well, even if I'm doing okay, but I go through like a life crisis for some reason, then like I need to be able to [01:48:00] compartmentalize that right through my own therapy sessions so I can show up authentically as I as I can, as much as I can for my therapist. So never go to a therapist who like never went to their own therapy. 

J.R.: Yeah, I was about to say that. That's like exactly.

That's like, don't go to a dentist that, that doesn't go to a dentist. That sort of thing. 

Hannah: Basically like why would you 

J.R.: not believe in the thing that you're selling? Yeah, right. 

Hannah: Exactly. Like, 

J.R.: so what 

Hannah: are you avoiding? It makes a lot of sense. What are you avoiding?

J.R.: Yeah. What are you hiding? Okay, so is there, I guess the last two questions I have is, is there anything you would do differently if you had to start back in square one in your practice and then two advice to others beyond what you've already mentioned that want to pursue a similar career?

Hannah: Are you talking about my private practice or are you talking about my career? 

J.R.: Either, I think either would be interesting. 

Hannah: Would I do it anything differently?

I'm gonna sound really cheesy, but I wish I had more belief in myself. 

J.R.: Okay. Okay. Sorry. No, I was gonna be like, oh, I would just do the same. 'cause people say that a lot, which is fine. I would ever do everything the same, but, sorry, I was about to, I cut you off. 

Hannah: No, it's okay. No, the only thing I would [01:49:00] really wish that I had more of as I was going through my whole entire career process let's say start from grad school on, it was like more belief in myself because I think it would've been less anxiety provoked, it definitely would've been less than guided, provoking to just, have that faith and that competence in myself.

But I, I also understand that's a learning process, right? That's my own personal growth as a person, but now I feel powerful. I feel powerful as a person having gone through these big risks, essentially. Going to grad school was a risk. Opening this private practice was a risk.

Coming to Boston was a risk period, and I feel a lot stronger. I feel really powerful. I just wish I had that when I first started, but I understand it's part of the process. 

J.R.: Yeah.

Hannah: I don't know if there's anything else I would've done differently. 

J.R.: Any advice you would have for other people who want to go down a [01:50:00] similar career path? 

Hannah: Yeah,

I would say,

hmm, well, I have to think about this a little bit.

J.R.: Just love, pain and suffering. Be a masochist like myself. 

Hannah: You know what? One big thing is that well go to therapy. Go to therapy first. Have your own experience with therapy. If you're gonna try this career, they actually recommend that you go to therapy too, because you want to know what the therapy process is like.

So go through therapy, heal yourself, prioritize healing yourself. Because in order to become the provider that you want to become, you have to be good yourself. Not just for the sake of your clients and your career, but for you. Heal yourself for you. And I think with a lot of therapists, a lot of the focus is on healing other people, right?

Helping other people, supporting other people, supporting community being of service, being a martyr essentially. And this is why we're attracted to this field. 'cause it's a helping field, [01:51:00] right? It's a helping career. But oftentimes we. Forget ourselves. Oftentimes we neglect ourselves. Oftentimes we sacrifice ourselves.

Oftentimes we prioritize other people over ourselves and I've definitely been my own victim of that was not fun. It was not fun. I ended up having to invest a lot more of my time, energy, money into healing the parts of me that I neglected, physically, mentally, spiritually, because I thought my worth isn't helping people.

It's not. It's not. Your worth is in existing and just being there, but you can help when your bucket is full. So make sure to be filling your own bucket. Make sure you go through the healing process of yourself or yourself first. Maybe not first, but prioritize that as you are also pursuing this career.

It's not meant to be a career where you have to sacrifice yourself and should sacrifice yourself. That is not part of the equation. Yes, it's a helping profession, but you also have to pro, you have, 

J.R.: [01:52:00] I love it that it's really good. It's like prioritize yourself. How can you help anyone else if you're not even, how can you save anyone else from drowning if you're drowning?

Right. Correct. I like it. Okay, Hannah, I want to be cognizant of your time. We like, we've been over, so I appreciate it. Totally fine. Are you okay with time? 

Hannah: Yeah, I'm fine. Okay. I know you're short on time though. Okay. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm just checking in since we scheduled the two hours, but I know I appreciate it.

I've loved this conversation so far. I've gotten so much out of it. If you don't have anything else on that topic, I would like to move to rapid fire questions. If you're Cool. God, this is the fun part. I don't know why people freak out so much. This is the enjoyable part, 

Hannah: so reflect. Okay, 

J.R.: sure, sure.

I know I vibe with that. Yeah. So the rapid fire questions. Okay. But they don't have to be rapid fire answers. And I will jump around and if you wanna pass, you can pass. Okay. That's how the game works. Yeah. Okay. All right. So you already know the questions that are coming. I might jump around, but first one is billboard question.

So if you could put up a sign for millions of people to see, what would it say? Non-commercial and metaphorical. 

Hannah: It's not that deep. I feel like people take things seriously a lot and it's it doesn't have to have meaning unless you wanted to. 

J.R.: I like it. What is one of the hardest challenges you faced in your life and what did you learn from it?

Hannah: Moving to Boston, the adjustment from the bicoastal culture is like, that was rough and I didn't know a single person here, so I really built my life here, [01:53:00] like brick by brick. And that was the hardest thing, but most rewarding thing. I can't imagine my life the different, I love it. So yeah, 

J.R.: of course the growth always comes from that discomfort, right?

Yeah. Self-inflicted wound. Do you have a story about something that's gone wrong and it was your own fault and you can't blame anyone else?

Hannah: Like breakups, like it definitely like that was your fault, Hannah. You're a masochist. Definitely. Just me being not a mature person and victimizing myself, like that's definitely on me, which was a painful realization I worked on and much better at, but it was such a painful realization that like my misery is my fault.

Fuck. I have to take accountability, responsibility, it. Fuck. Yeah.

J.R.: I like it. Cool. All right. We, I know we went over this sort of in different areas, but if you could redo one thing, what would you do differently?

Or if we covered it already, you can be like pass. 

Hannah: I covered it. So pass. Yeah. 

J.R.: Okay. If you could give your younger self advice any age or time period, what would it be? Now? 

Hannah: Now you are much more powerful than you think you [01:54:00] are. Like, I used to think that I was so small and insignificant and powerless, but that is absolutely false.

I wish. I could tell my younger version of myself like, you are powerful. You are built to do hard things and you'll survive. I'm so confident about that now, but that took 10 years, like a decade. Being here has built me to believe in that. But it's because of like you said, the discomfort, right?

Like I was very uncomfortable here for the first couple of years and then I built this life as a result of it. But yeah, you're a powerful person and you're built for hard things. 

J.R.: Love it. In the last few years, what new belief, behavior, or habit has improved your life? I'm 

Hannah: a powerful person. I'm a powerful person.

Yes. And actually one thing as a woman is I a belief that I truly, firmly believe in. And I'm so glad that I gave myself a chance to live by myself for one year. 

J.R.: And, 

Hannah: I didn't let my [01:55:00] boyfriends now husband help me out with any of that stuff. He actually wanted me to live with him, but I was like, no, I'm gonna leave by myself for at least a year just to see what it's like and to do everything on my own independently.

I really wanted to grow that independence, and I recommend that to any young woman out there because there is no greater peace in knowing that you could take care of yourself by yourself. Period. Period. If something were to happen to my husband, that would suck. Don't get me wrong. It would be hard, but I know I'll be fine.

I'll figure it out. Because I, one, I'm not afraid to be alone, but two, like I am, I can take care of myself, and there's, yeah. You 

J.R.: know, you're capable. 

Hannah: There's no greater strength than having the belief that you'll figure it out and you can take care of yourself. 

J.R.: Nice. How do you define success?

Hannah: I don't know how to define success, Jr. What is success? I think that's something you can't define, because that looks different for every person. And I think for me, success is finding peace in life because you have to actually work very hard in this lifetime, in this world to find peace. And so if you have moments and pockets of [01:56:00] peace, success.

Okay. 

J.R.: What is something you've been pondering recently or something you think about often

Hannah: being a kid again? I think I, I think about this a lot lately. Part of my current healing process is to be less of an adult and more of a kid because I feel like I've been really responsible in my life for most of my life. And I think there's a child side of me that really just wants to play and have fun, which is like why pickleball is a thing, right?

Why I am taking photography lessons. Not, what is it for? And just like doing like random shit with with just no like mature adult thoughts in mind, yeah. And so, yeah, I really, that's something that I've been really focusing on, like healing my inner child by being more of that child, having her express herself more and be more present and be more balanced with my adult self.

J.R.: [01:57:00] Do you have a favorite hot take or something you think most people won't agree with?

Hannah: I really like psychic mediums. 

J.R.: Really? I 

Hannah: think they're real. I don't think every person out there who's advertising themselves as psych mediums are real. But I do believe in like spiritual people who have connections to the spiritual realm. And not all tarot readers are real, but I do believe in some of them.

That's my hot take. 

J.R.: Okay. Are there, okay, I'm curious now I wanna double click on that. Are, is there any specific type of psychic mediums or experiences that you've had that kind of shaped this perspective? 

Hannah: Not necessarily like a one-on-one session with this medium. Or whatever they call themselves.

But I do wanna schedule one 'cause I'm very curious, but I, when I was like going through this hard period in my life where like I had just bought a house and I just got engaged and I was planning a wedding, it was like all good things, but it was still really [01:58:00] fucking stressful and a lot of burden and emotional load.

I was going through TikTok and all these like mediums started coming up and they were like talking about all this shit, and I was like, I just got so enamored with the messages that they were giving out. And I was like, even if this is fake, it's still inspiring. It's still supportive. It's still feels like something I could connect to, like hope that I can connect to, even if it's fake.

I don't care. I mean, I would hope it is real, but even if it's fake, it's, is there an example 

J.R.: of one of those things, 

Like something you came across, you're like, oh, that sounds hopeful or whatever. 

Hannah: Like some tarot card readers will say oh, there's like a dark presence in those life that's trying to make you fail.

And I'll be like, oh yeah, this person is actually trying to make me fail or whatever. And they'll be more specific. I, obviously, I don't 

J.R.: I 

Hannah: don't listen to the ones that are like super vague. Like everybody's, everybody has a dark person in their life, you know what I mean? But Right. They'll get kind of [01:59:00] specific and I'm like, oh shit.

Like that kind of resonates, and so I'll get like, wait, so how does. 

J.R.: How does that work? You're seeing a video, so they do like creating, they're seeing a reading that's for you, creating readings, 

Hannah: right? So their spirit team will tell them, Hey, you need to do a reading for the collective, right?

And so they'll pull cards, right? And they'll say, Hey, these are the cards for the collective. So it's not super personally specific, but it's like specific enough that it will only encompass a certain collective. So each tarot card reader will say, if this resonates with you, it'll be for a reason. If it does not, this message is not for you.

I know it's again, it's my hot take. It's my hot take. 

J.R.: Sorry. Is this No, I'm just curious now. So is this live or it can be live. Just a recorded video. I need you watch it. But, but they also have like 

Hannah: pre-recorded videos too. So for the real, for the mediums that I do follow, I believe hope they're real.

They have spirit teams, so they have like souls and like spirits that talk to them and give them like wisdom And they're like, these, they're not [02:00:00] gods. So they're like, they know a lot more than like this, than humans. And so they'll be like, okay, we have a message. You need to channel this message for us and give it to the collective.

And whoever comes across this video, it's like serendipitous, right? It's not by chance. It's like for a reason that you're seeing this. Because my spirit team got the message from their spirit team and said, Hey, you need to listen to this message. 

J.R.: Interesting. Okay. So you know what this makes me think of is every time I go to church and there is a sermon and it's like, this may apply to you or it may not.

Yeah. But if it does come up for prayer and I'm like, that sounds very familiar. Yeah, 

Hannah: exactly. It is kind of the same. Because they, that's funny. The mediums are just the messengers. And like the pastor is just the messenger. Supposedly they're supposed to be right from God. Right, right. To the people.

So the formula is a little, it's the same, it just looks a little different. 

J.R.: Gotcha. Interesting. Okay. Cool. I like it. I like it. Alright, next [02:01:00] one. What is the most, what is the one of the best or most worthwhile investments you've ever made in either time, money, energy, et cetera? I 

Hannah: was thinking about this one and I genuinely don't know my dicing vacuum.

I love that shit. 

J.R.: It's, yeah, it's good. 

Hannah: This chair, Herman Miller chair, it's not recent, but I bought this when I was having my back issues from working too much. It's expensive, but worth the investment. 

J.R.: Herman Miller, what is the price range? 

Hannah: It's at least over a grand, so it's not a small purchase, but it's a Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You care about your back health, your spine health, which you should consider. Yeah. Yeah. You could, you could buy off Facebook marketplace. We don't, they have it for a couple hundred dollars like on resale too. So 

J.R.: our spine's not important, is it? 

Hannah: It's the foundation of your entire body. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, I say that be, I say that as someone with chronic lower back pain and I've been considering like, okay, maybe I should get a new chair just to see if it'll help solve my problem.

'cause it's been almost three years now. Look at 

Hannah: jr. So this is called the Aron chair, A-E-R-O-N from Herman Miller. 

J.R.: Aron. Okay. Uhhuh. 

Hannah: You [02:02:00] can probably find a used one for really not really cheap, but like cheaper than a thousand plus 

J.R.: cheaper. Right. Retail. Gotcha. Okay. I'll put on my list. 'cause I am in the market for a new chair.

Okay. On that notes. I haven't had bad 

Hannah: issues since this chair. 

J.R.: Okay. Well your testimonies have just been selling me all day. So I, I'm putting all these things on my list. 

Hannah: You can thank later. I've sold on, 

J.R.: sold on almost every single thing you've said so far. Maybe it's just 'cause we're friends, but I'm literally like, okay, maybe I should in sales.

Let's see. Pickleball. Yeah. Pickleball therapy chair. Like what all these things. 

Hannah: Maybe I should been in sales 'cause I'll be making shit tons more money in sale. 

J.R.: Yeah, no, you're, yeah, you're not wrong. They, I they say there's a lot of money in TikTok shop or, those sales channels.

Yeah, yeah. Where it's like they just sell things Yeah, yeah. As their platform. Yeah. Apparently there's a lot of bank in that. So maybe it's your side hustle, turn millionaire endeavor. 

Hannah: It's okay. I don't Okay. On 

J.R.: that. On the, on the topic of purchases, do you have a favorite recent, relatively cheap purchase that has impacted your life the most recently?

I.

Hannah: I dunno. I'm just looking at my pop socket. I mean it's not recent, but I love this shit. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. 

Hannah: My pop [02:03:00] socket. 

J.R.: What about it? Or is it just the fact that it's pop socket? 

Hannah: Well, one, you can interchange the socket, which is nice. And two, it just helps you hold your phone so much easier. I used to do this and it actually takes a lot of your grip strength and like I used to drop my phone so on my face so many times, but this shit is nice.

And then because you're a 

J.R.: Mexicans 

Hannah: Yeah, but they also have mag safe like you put on a dashboard of your car there holders. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also amazing purchase. 'cause you could just stick it on and you could take it off rather than doing the whole, like squeezing the thing to jiggle it out.

Mm-hmm. And stuff like that. That's also a good purchase that I really made. I really like that I made. Yeah. 

J.R.: I hate it because I'm also on the market for a new phone case. So now I'm like, God dammit Hannah, you're just checking all the boxes. 

Hannah: Spi. SPI is year mine. You can buy it on Amazon. SPI Sgin is it's a Korean brand I found out later, but their case are solid.

Cheap. 

J.R.: Okay. I'll put it on my, I've [02:04:00] put it in the links. 'cause this, every episode has a bunch of links that you refer to, so it's just all of your recommends that it's like the host has now bought all these things, by the way. Okay. I have a last one. Which is favorite books, movies, videos, articles, or any media that you share or recommend the most.

Hannah: I don't have one.

Oh. Shrinking from Apple tv. So shrinking. Is that a, that's a movie? No, it's a TV series with, okay. The main character is Jason's se sequel. Hold on. 

J.R.: Jason Segel. 

Hannah: Yeah, he's the, he's Marshall from How I Met Your Mother. I think that's how you say his name. 

J.R.: Okay. 

Hannah: But phenomenal show about therapists actually, although it's not an accurate, necessarily accurate representation of therapists, because the therapists and there all kind of batshit crazy and have zero boundaries.

Oh. Because 

J.R.: it's a, because it's a TV show, but 

Hannah: it's for entertainment. But I actually really like it. It's, it gives you a glimpse into humanizing therapists too, because we're human at the end of the day. We don't know everything. We don't have everything figured out. We also go through our life [02:05:00] like just kind of figure shit out alongside with you guys, so I feel like a lot of people put therapists on a pedestal and kind of say oh, you've figured everything out, so tell me how you did it. And it's no, like I could give you nuggets of wisdom and like stuff like that. I help piece things together for you. But girl, like my life is not like peaches and cream all the time either, so.

Mm-hmm. 

J.R.: It's a 

Hannah: very interesting perspective of therapists. It's on Apple tv, but it's also hilarious. So I recommend, 

J.R.: so is a comedy or is like a drama? It's a comedy. It's a comedy 

Hannah: drama, so. Gotcha. Yeah. It follows the Death. So it follows Jason's character who's a therapist going through tragic, traumatic loss of his wife and how he's trying to deal with that while also trying to be a therapist and it's hilarious.

J.R.: Okay. Sounds interesting. Okay. I will link to it in the description. Cool. Alright, Tana, we have come to the end of rapid fire questions. We made it to the end, so we have ending questions now. So we always end with gratitude. Shout out to [02:06:00] my mom. Hannah, what are you grateful for? 

Hannah: I'm grateful for my husband.

I guess he really keeps me grounded. He is like my sanity when I'm being too much of a masochist. It's so true though. It's so true. Oh my God. I had dinner. Schedule, like all next week. And I've been getting scolded by him recently. He's like, Hannah, you're an introvert. Why are you doing this to yourself?

And I'm like, but it's summer, 

J.R.: because I am, I'm a master. That's why I do it. I just love pain so much. 

Hannah: He's like, Mike Braden really back in. 

J.R.: So I'm very critical for him. Ke he keeps you in check. Yeah. Nice. Cool. All right. Do you have a final ask from the audience or any final takeaways you'd like them to have from this conversation?

Hannah: Be a kid. Honestly, like life is too serious sometimes. And I get I get that you do have to be serious and that the world right [02:07:00] now is pretty seriously fucked. But this is why you have to go play, go play, go have fun, go, don't take things so seriously and just enjoy life because life is what you make of it.

It really is, and just believe in yourself. That's a really big one for me. 

J.R.: I like it. All right, Tanna. Where can people find you if they wanna check out what you're up to or, see what you're doing or connect social media handles, websites, et cetera, where can they find you?

Hannah: Yeah, so it depends. If you want my personal. So if you could check my personal account at Hannah Bob with three Bs at the end on my Instagram. But if you're looking for my professional help, you can find me on my website. I can send that website to you Jr. I haven't sent that to you, but you could see me.

You could. My website essentially 

J.R.: get out. Yeah. Cool. We'll do that. All right. I will link to your website and your social so people can check that stuff out. But alright, so we've come to the end. Hannah, thank you so much for this conversation. Of course. It has rejuvenated my soul. Fun. Lots of fun. It was fun.

Kind of flipped it on its head. Yeah, and I, this was like the longest recording that I've [02:08:00] done and I've always wanted it to be like this, so I'm glad it was, you're my first live guest in this medium, so I really appreciate you for that. 

Hannah: Yeah, of course. It was fun. Like it was like, it's like we're back like 15 years ago, catching up in college and just like catching up for hours, 

J.R.: yeah, yeah, that's exactly what like our reunion was kind of like. 

Hannah: Yeah, it was really nice. I did really appreciate that reunion too. 

J.R.: Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right, well thank you. I'm gonna sign off really quick, so I'll for the audience, especially if you're audio only, thank you guys for being here. I appreciate it.

I'll be sure to like, follow, subscribe, all this other cool stuff. Leo, love in the comments, re consuming this. Leave Hannah some love in the comments and reminder to always be kind to yourself, to other people, especially yourself. And remember that you can always learn something from someone if you take the time to listen.

So thank you guys for being here. Bye.