#85: Brian “Lil B” Perez - Winning International Competitions, the Evolution of Locking, Podcasting as Public Therapy, and Finding Joy in Dance

Host J.R. Yonocruz reconnects with Bay Area locker Brian “Lil B” Perez to reflect on their early Academy of Villains days and AOV’s mission to bridge freestyle and choreography. Lil B shares his path from DDR and working for Konami/tech QA into locking, plus lessons from battles, travel, and learning to train groove and feeling. They also discuss mentorship, safer dance spaces, therapy and identity, and how social media has changed dance culture and learning.

Chapters:
01:57 Reconnecting After Years
02:59 AOV Origins and Early Days
08:20 Mentorship and Team Culture
12:27 Freestyle Meets Choreo
22:22 Building Safer Dance Spaces & Shoutout to Arnel Calvario
31:45 Brian Origin Story Begins
33:47 DDR Community, Konami Job & QA Career
41:14 Why Locking Clicked
46:08 Flow State And Loss
51:37 Prestige Locking Training
54:44 Finding Groove In Between
01:00:40 Teaching Joy And Music
01:09:04 Therapy Identity And Pitfalls
01:12:30 Keeping Locking Alive
01:17:40 Traveling For Dance Life
01:24:39 Travel For Dance Growth
01:28:59 Politics Roots And Leadership
01:32:41 Social Media & Dance Classes
01:48:26 OG Gatekeeping And Fallout
01:52:03 Locking Ceiling And Exposure
02:00:43 Dancing In The TikTok Era
02:09:04 Rapid Fire Reflections
02:15:44 Vulnerability and Therapy
02:20:56 Anime and K Pop Identity
02:27:49 Gratitude and Final Message

Guest bio:
Brian Perez a.k.a. "Lil B" is a locker from San Francisco, California who started his journey in 2007. In the previous years he has entered competitions and taught in California, Las Vegas, New York, Japan, Paris, and China. 

Dance Affiliations: Unortholockx, Groovmekanex, DS Players, Academy of Villains (1st gen), All My Friends, and co-founder of Dance Over Styles.

He has also been in the tech field doing Quality Assurance for about 20 years. 

• Instagram: @lockinglilb / https://www.instagram.com/lockinglilb/

Links/resources:

• #21: Dr. Arnel Calvario Ripkens - From KM to TEDx, Asians in Hip-Hop, and Cultivating Leaders of the Future
• Planet B-Boy (documentary - Wikipedia)

Transcript

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J.R.: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to One Thousand Gurus, where we share the stories and lessons from people of all walks of life. I'm your host, J.R. Yonocruz.

So today's episode features guest Lil B Brian Perez. Lil B, AKA Brian Perez, is a locker from San Francisco, California, who started his journey in 2007. The previous years, he has entered competitions and taught in California, Las Vegas, New York, Japan, Paris, and China.

His dance affiliations include Unorthalox, Groove Mechanics, DS Players, Academy of Villains 1st Gen, All My Friends, and co-founder of Dance Over Styles.

Lil B has also been in the tech field doing quality assurance for about 20 years.

So I absolutely love this conversation. Maybe I say that too much, But going almost three hours, which felt like we could have gone twice as long, to be honest, connecting with a friend that I haven't talked to in maybe 15 years or so, and he has had a huge influence on my formative dance years in high school.

I've said this before in a previous episode, but there's something really special about [00:01:00] reconnecting with someone from your past, as it's also a way to reconnect with your past self. At least that's what I feel like.

Lil B was such a wealth of history, information, insight, and perspective, And it was such a fascinating deep dive into dance and specifically locking that we don't normally have the privilege of going into in this show.

Not only do we reminisce about our AOV days, the dance company that we both met on when I was in high school, about when I was seventeen years old, his entire origin story of dance, how it took him all over the world, his thoughts on dance back then versus now in the age of social media, how his old podcast was his own public therapy as well as his own actual therapy journey.

And perhaps the biggest takeaway for me is how the feeling of dance or our chosen art form is the most important thing of all that truly elevates our lives.

It was a wonderful conversation, and I'll definitely be re-listening to this over and over for myself, and hopefully you guys enjoy it too.

So without further ado, please enjoy this episode with Brian "Lil B" Perez

Hello, and welcome back to One Thousand Gurus. Lil B, [00:02:00] welcome to the show. 

Lil B: Hey, thanks for having me, man. 

J.R.: Yeah, thanks for being here. Man, we were just catching up real quick because it has been a minimum 10 years, but I wanna say more because I was in AOV you know, when it started and I was in it for a year and then I would come back and, you know, be with my sister and we would talk here and there.

But I wanna say it's closer to like 15 years, if not more. Right? 

Lil B: Yeah, I think so. 

J.R.: Yeah. So it's been a while. I mean, we're connected on social media like, you know, Facebook and Instagram so I see s- your posts here and there and but it's nice to have you on the show. I've-- like I mentioned, this podcast half of it is an excuse to just have old friends on the show and just catch up and memorialize this as something we can look back on.

So I do appreciate you taking out the time and just being super down to jump on 

Lil B: Yeah, man. This is, this is pretty exciting. Like you said, it's been a long time since we've- Mm-hmm ... caught up, like even just like run into each other in the wild or something. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Cool. So I'll go into how I [00:03:00] know you first.

Mm. So we met on AOV, Academy of Villains, in like 2008-ish. 2009 is when I left, 'cause I went to college at that point. There were a lot of freestyle dancers and choreo dancers, and from... These are just my impressions, but it was like that what I really loved and enjoyed was that session energy, like before and after practice.

And you know, over the next 10 years or so, AOV started to like dominate the choreo competitions, which is great. And I remember in those first, that first year, all the freestylers on our team were like, every- everyone was... Hmm, how do I say this? So yeah, there was only a handful of us who were still in high school, like me and like maybe two other people, like TNC and- Yeah

Someone else. Right. But everyone else, they were, you know, like adults. And so for me, everyone on the team were like my dance inspirations. I'm like, "You guys are so good," and I'm just like, I'm just this high school kid who just made it onto the team. Even my sister was like way better than me, so I'm just like, oh man, it's...

I [00:04:00] felt like, I went into the deep end of the pool. But it was nice because being around people like you and everyone else who I looked up to was very inspirational and motivating for me to really like step on the gas, and I think I, to me, that translated to the rest of my dance career of having those sort of standards of being around inspirational people or people who are ahead of you to kind of motivate you to grow.

And I think, as you know, growth is where happiness is. Like when we're pursuing something, when we see the progress, when we're around people who lift us up, that's kind of like the great place to be in. And so yeah, just wanted to give you that shout-out and everyone else that was part of my dance experience, like early on, 'cause I had just started dancing as well.

And yeah, it's nice- Was that- ... to see that you're s- yeah, go ahead. 

Lil B: That was like your first, that was your first team? That was 

J.R.: my first team. Like stuff like 

Lil B: that? 

J.R.: For sure. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Like I, I mean, my sister and I had freestyled and, you know, we took dance classes in high school, but then it's like, oh, Supreme Soul 2nd Gen's having audition, let's do it together, and we just drive there like in 45 minutes one way, and I had like school the next day.

And I'm like, "Okay, well this is [00:05:00] cool." 

Lil B: Did you guys know anybody? 

J.R.: No, we didn't know anybody. 

Lil B: Oh my God. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, I mean, well, so I mean like my sister know- knew RJ and, right, and like the, that group of people, Supreme Soul people, and so like it was that sort of she was more in the community and I was just the little brother who also danced, and then so- Mm-hmm

we joined after that. But, Yeah. Yeah, that was so formative. And oh yeah, I was about to say, yeah, I'm, I'm-- It's cool to see that you're still dancing as well 'cause it's such a, it's such a trip because it just brings me back to my high school days. I'm like, "Dang, that's, like, Lil B, man."

He was always one of my favorite dancers and freestylers, and you guys would go out to jams and just kill it. And just as a kid, so proud to be a part of a team that you guys are on, so I'm like, "Oh." So that's just how I see you, so appreciate you.

Any clarifications on your end and what you've been up to?

Lil B: No, just something I remember really wanting to share, too about the conception of AOV was that CJ really had it of wanting to be a [00:06:00] bridge of freestyle and choreo. And that was, not to say it was unheard of back then, but no one else was really doing it- Right, right, right ... especially in the Bay, right?

And the I feel like the loose people that he picked up, they were really just like either they're in their small groups and they were gonna stay their course of just doing freestyle or just doing choreo. And it was really cool to see everyone basically struggle.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. 

Lil B: You know? I came in as a freestyle person even though I had done choreo with DS Players, and to this day I'm still terrible at choreo. Or like I'm bad at learning it and doing it. I'm great- Right, right ... at creating it kind of stuff. 

J.R.: Right, right. 

Lil B: And it was a really hard year, I would like to say, for everybody- ... for different reasons. Obviously, I really shined inside of, like, when we got to have those sessions, and that was really cool because, you know, the energy was make sure you get the choreo heads to start showing their stuff or start having- Mm [00:07:00] Yeah, just the confidence to do it and yeah, really, like really trying to bridge both worlds.

And AOV was not... Okay, I, when people talk about AOV now, they know it was really successful in terms of doing the competitions and start end up placing and then doing their big shows. But dude, before that it was like chickens with their heads cut off, like just running around- Yeah

trying to figure it out, you know? And I re- I actually remember there was one time, 'cause I didn't, I only did one or two performances with you guys. I didn't do the competitions. Right. But I remember one time CJ being super upset that they didn't place, and they were like, "Why can't we beat the Choreo Cookies?"

And stuff like that. And I was, I remember being like, "It's because you're dividing the team." If you l- look at them, like they live and breathe this. It's in their name. You have to play their game and do it better, and your mixes need to be better. Mm-hmm. I remember like after that just seeing like everyone just [00:08:00] take it in a really different way, and then they started doing their thing.

But yeah, I have a lot of fond memories of AOV. And especially like with you and MJ I don't know if you remember we drove to practice together a couple times. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, for like a couple weeks or months or something. And I- Yeah ... there's a story I want- 

J.R.: You definitely carpooled with people.

Lil B: Yeah. I remember taking you, 'cause I lived around here, the same area I'm living in now. And there's a story I wanted to tell you about, 'cause I remember, I think one of the first times I drove you, I think I was, I think we were just listening to music and, oh my girlfriend at the time, Kana, was with us.

And I was just lis- listening to music. And I, you know, it was just like car- a carpool. But then after we got home, like from dropping you off and going to practice, like she was like, "You should be a better," I don't know what the word she wanted to use, but it's like big brother to you guys.

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: Of to talk to you and make sure you're comfortable, and if, you know, you're excited for practice and stuff. And I was like, "Oh." [00:09:00] 'Cause I didn't really see age like that. 

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: You know what I mean? I didn't see myself as above you or older than you like that. It just made me like I could drive you guys.

But she was more like, I think, talking to me like, you know, be more of a mentor. And I was like, "I didn't know." She like, she really was like, "You gotta take better care of them." 

J.R.: Oh. That's kind of, that's very sweet. That's thoughtful. 

Lil B: Yeah. And I didn't think I was doing anything wrong, but then, you know, that didn't really like- Yeah

I didn't really understand that till a lot later of what being a mentor- ... would be like or how it makes me feel. I love the idea of mentoring, 'cause I think I'm better at that than teaching. 

J.R.: That makes sense. I feel the same way, too. Like I've taught dance over the years, and I've told people it's like da- teaching dance is great, but I love the mentorship more than...

teaching dance is like a medium to mentor people, to coach people, to help them get to where they wanna be. But dance of the technical aspect of that and developing their artistry, like to me that's fine, but that's not like what I really enjoy about that. [00:10:00] And even my current dance experience, like I've been a director on one of, on my, the K-pop team that I'm in for the last four years, and that is the part that I enjoy the most, is being that sort of mentor figure.

'Cause I'm like, "Man, I've been in the dance community, different dance teams for the last 15-plus years. Like I know how this goes, and I just wanna make sure you guys have a good experience even though there's this huge generational gap. Like I don't understand you guys at all, but I'm, I just want to make sure that you guys have a good experience."

And ideally better than what I had, right? Like just to fix the things that weren't always the right way and making it good for you guys, and I think there's something very fulfilling about that. But of course- I was- ... you know, like I don't... Yeah. 

Lil B: So I was just thinking the same thing of like I think CJ, to us, he was a pretty good leader, but I think anyone from the outside looking in would be like, "Wow, it shouldn't be like that."

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: And I think a lot of us in AOV or like the AOV adjacent like teams, like the ones in Hawaii and stuff- Mm ... I think they really took exactly what you said and was like, "I could do that. I could do it, it [00:11:00] better in my own way." Not, you know- Mm ... not, not to say like he did bad, but oh I, there's the things of having someone that was very open with us about frustrations and like the winnings and things like that.

And- 

J.R.: Mm-hmm ... 

Lil B: and how to treat and talk to people that was like, oh I could also treat and talk to people in a way that is conducive to like what I feel is good for mentorship. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: So it's cool to see you also talking about that 'cause, you know, I'm realizing I'm placing the blocks of like 15 years of memory gap and catching up with you.

'Cause yeah- Yeah, yeah ... you were just like a hella shy-ass kid in the back of my car. Yeah. 

J.R.: No, I mean, that was, that was exactly... Again, I told you, I felt like I did not belong there because I was so like not experienced in freestyle. I am very like high school level of choreo and so like I'm just, you know, MJ's little brother who's like the same just not as good.

Lil B: But 

J.R.: it was nice to be 

Lil B: there. Well, you know what? We didn't 

J.R.: see you that way though, right? Of course. Of course. Of course. I totally get that. But it was more just and I was like of course one of the little bros. But I was [00:12:00] like, "Oh man, I got a lot of catching up to do." But again, I see it as like I was so appreciative to be in that space because it set me up for being on a college competition team where it was like so high stakes.

But I'm like this pressure is nothing compared to being around a bunch of people who are like I see as 10 times better than me and they're so good and I admire what they do. But now just translating that to like the choreo, SoCal choreo space and even beyond that. So it's yeah It was a, yeah, it was very formative.

I wanted to ask too, but so again, for me, very inexperienced in both choreo and freestyle, but I did do both. But, you know, there's a lot of people on our team who specialized in their freestyle or they came from a choreo background and they're interested in freestyle. But what was that environment like for you?

Because I know at Jams there could be like a co-mingling, but this was like a different co-mingling of different styles intentionally, but also the choreo space, the choreo people, and then we would have the post-practice sessions or even before, and then you could even battle for a spot in your blocking, remember?

And- 

Lil B: Yeah ... 

J.R.: so [00:13:00] yeah, I don't know. From someone who has ex- been experienced in freestyle and one of my favorite lockers at the time, like, how was that for you?

Lil B: There was a part of it that because I know that CJ really pushed for me and enjoyed my company and that I was, like, one of the only lockers on the team- Yeah ... I kinda felt a little bit untouchable in that sense, right? So, like- Mm-hmm ... he, he fed that to me really feeding into the confidence, 'cause that's something I remember a lot about AOV.

It was, like, just building that, that confidence. And even though MJ-- And I always think about this MJ was there, but it was very bro-y, right? 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

Lil B: yeah. In a, in a way that we could we could shit on each other and also lift each other up. And I think als- especially being like, best friends with Haji at the time, like- 

His confidence is off the charts still. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 

J.R.: yeah. I 

Lil B: actually got, I actually got to meet with him in Okinawa last year. 

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: So that was also a 10-plus year reunion. But his confidence really rubbed off on me, and it was very... [00:14:00] What, I'm like, 22, 23 at the time, and so my ego was really big.

Yeah. I know that now looking back. I got to get slapped down for how big my ego was. But it carried itself well and matured inside of AOV, for better or worse. Yeah. For probably okay inside of AOV, and it was really bad outside of it. 

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: I think one of the hardest parts was getting people to like, there's foundations that you need for both, let's say for locking, popping, and house and stuff, but there's also foundations that you need for choreo, right? So actually, I think some of the hardest parts was, like, working with some of the breakers. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: Because I didn't speak their language.

Like, yes, we're both freestylers, but I'm like, "Oh, I don't speak your language to help- ... you understand where I'm coming from with- for my take of what choreo is." So it wasn't just this and that. It was like inside of this there was, like, multiple facetutes [00:15:00] of that, right? 

J.R.: Right. 

Lil B: And trying to see...

Like, they thought the things that I do are, like, really cool and that should be highlighted. I'm like, "I think I just dance." I, you know, I think I'm just like the up, up top, like I'm just doing like- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: you know, nice pleasant things, but you guys are the powerheads, or you can be. You know? Those need to be highlighted.

How do we work these into making our little choreo together? 'Cause that was something that we would do too, right? He would just, like, pair up a bunch of different- Yeah ... groups and be like, "Make something." 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. Do some blow up or some sort of thing- Yeah, exactly ... and show us at the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lil B: Dude, some of those were so dangerous. 

J.R.: Yeah, for sure, dude. For sure. That danger has carried over the next 10 years beyond that. They would just throw themselves. I'm like, "Dang, y'all are crazy." 

Lil B: Yeah. And I was gonna say too, I think when looking back now, like you and like TNT, like the... especially the the youngest guys, like your presence was actually r- when I look back, it's really big for us because [00:16:00] it was kinda told to us too, make sure that you're, like, showing them everything that they could do.

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: You know? And I think especially for me at the time, my best way to show like you and MJ, like what I could do was just to just dance the way I do instead of talking about it so much. 

And I felt like a lot of the other guys, like my age felt that of like- They're watching when we have our sessions.

Just go. Just do it, 'cause this is the part that we're good at. We we sucked for this past hour. You know? 

J.R.: I mean, it showed because we-- I mean, at least for me, I was watching every single person. I distinctly always remember this. You know, when we'd freestyle and everyone's amazing, and then as soon as CJ comes on and he starts freestyling, everyone stops and we just watch, and we're just like, "What, what the...

I don't even think I dance anymore." It's so crazy. And so, yeah, so for CJ, that was, like, his level and his tier. But for me, as a 16, 17-year-old that was my, also my experience for [00:17:00] everyone else there who were good at krumping, locking, b-boying, everything. And I'm like, "Dang okay, I'm just like a sponge."

And even though it's very intimidating to be a part of that, but you're right, it was very bro like, bro culture, and so everyone was really nice and supportive, even despite all the shitting on and you know. But I think also, too, because I was younger people didn't really give me shit.

I was just kinda there, and which is cool, too, 'cause it's like, oh, I get to enjoy you guys shitting on each other, but no one's picking on me 'cause I feel like that'll be like, maybe I'm just, because I'm just a kid.

Lil B: And yeah, 

J.R.: my 

Lil B: story is also like that, too. I 

J.R.: think, I, I think so. 

Lil B: Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that also really helped, too, because there was no-- You know, sometimes in groups it's, ends up like this for a little bit, right? Like, one person kinda receives the brunt of that- Mm-hmm ... or it's kinda easy to. Maybe they're messing up a lot or they're just kinda I don't know.

Especially in the, in the bro atmosphere, which I- Yeah ... I, I don't cater to anymore, but that's just how it was. But no, you guys were like the golden childs. You guys were like, diamonds in the rough yet to be like, you know. And, and I [00:18:00] think everyone knew that you guys were watching because it would show up.

It would show up at the next practice or the next session, and it would just be like, "They're getting better." Where- Mm ... like, some of us, we don't know if we're getting better, especially in the context of what AOV was. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: Like, me and Haji would talk about "I'm improving my locking. I'm winning more battles," but, like, I don't know if I'm actually doing anything here.

And I remember most of the last year that I was in AOV, I wasn't even actually there so much 'cause I was traveling a lot. I was preparing for the All The Way Live competition, so I was, like, in Japan, and then- Mm ... I think I went to Paris that year. And I just remember I would come in on practices and just give CJ my throat piece.

J.R.: Oh. '

Lil B: Cause I was like, "I don't need this. I'm gonna get more. Where's 

J.R.: yours?" Nice.

Well, I'm glad that worked out.

Lil B: I was such an asshole as a kid. Or when I say [00:19:00] kid- ... like, young adult in that period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's so crazy. What else? Yeah, I think I think that was mostly it, and then I know, well, at least for me. So, you know, I was in college, and then I was dancing with Kaba Modern for a little bit, and then I would always see all the choreo.

And then I would go back home and visit my sister, and she would give me their lowdown, and she's like, "Yeah, it's basically like a military boot camp now." And I'm like, "That's crazy. I don't know if I could ever do that." And so I never knew. I always thought that I would move back home and then rejoin, but I think at that point I knew I wanted to stay in SoCal, and so I never really rejoined after that, which was fine 'cause I'm like, "Okay, they are too hardcore for me now."

It's nice to have been there in the very beginning, but then afterwards I'm like, "Okay, I don't think I can hang at that level anymore." And I think I was also not really into competition dancing anymore. I wanted to go back to freestyling and whatnot and just doing my own projects. But it was cool to see them really have a vision and then execute on that and then do really well for the next 10-plus years.

Yeah. So that was really cool to see. And then everyone else who you know, wasn't [00:20:00] a part of it you know, Eddie and going on to do his, all of the crazy stuff he did and then everyone else who does all the crazy dance stuff. Like, it's just cool to being like, "Man, I used to dance with these people, and they're so crazy good," and they were huge inspirations of mine back then and even today.

And it's crazy, like you were saying, how you guys were the role models, but then how that can really have ripple effects to people later on depending on how your presence is around people. I think maybe that's a big takeaway or something to underscore that I think is really important.

But I don't know if you had any thoughts on the rest of your AOV experience or anything post that. 

Lil B: Yeah, like I said having to think back on, like, how bro-y it was, and it didn't feel bad at the time. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. 

Lil B: You know, I don't think, I don't think it actually was. I don't think we were, like, womanizing or being those kind of dudes.

But I did think a lot of did we kinda start something that among all of us that started in that first year, yes, we were bro-y, but I think we were all pretty kind-hearted. Mm-hmm. W- [00:21:00] we're not the type to mistreat people. But I think the way that we were, like, the way that we joked around and stuff maybe kinda caused that ripple effect for the following generations- 

J.R.: I could see 

Lil B: that ... is something I thought about, you know? Yeah. Because I think that's something... I checked CJ on a couple of things, right? Like how we would speak to people or the frustrations or like, how we should focus on more on choreo if we wanna win. But I never really checked him on, like- We shouldn't talk to women that way.

You know? And c- w- because if we were to do that to each other, it's a joke that we all understand. We're all in the inside joke. 

J.R.: Right, right. It's context. 

Lil B: Yeah. Or you know, one of my first memories of Hazi was it was a Daily City battle, and there was like an early cypher going on where everyone's just g- getting warmed up, getting cypher, and Hazi walked in with two of his friends, two of his hot friends- 

And like just in a zoot suit and just [00:22:00] walked around in a circle, let them go and started killing it, right? It, so th- that- Yeah ... kind of like confidence and character it... Okay, I was gonna say "Oh, that's just a character," but like he's actually like that. But like I think that s- some people really like that aspect and want it to be about that.

But that's just more for the public view, and I like, yeah. That was just something- I see ... I thought about, 'cause I... one of, one of my dance crews now, Dance Over Styles, is actually before COVID when we were practicing a lot together like once a week, it was actually mostly women.

And it was one of the first times I really had to think about I wanna make sure that this is a safe space for you and that you can be open, you can be vulnerable, because that's a lot of what I'm about when we come together and we dance and we session. Like it's not just "Hey, learn these moves."

It's "How you been feeling? Don't tell me, show me." You know? But I can only have that kind of like atmosphere if [00:23:00] I'm making sure that like you are well-respected here, you are safe here. I I- no one's going to touch or disrespect you. Like- Yeah, and that was just something I thought about a lot when I go back and think about my journey, especially with AOV.

J.R.: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. I feel the same way because again, just to recap with AOV in the early, those early days it was just mostly us guys and then my sister, and it was generally like a group of friends sort of space. And then f- now for me moving into college on a collegiate dance team, it was very much as you'd expect, right?

Like half girls, half guys, and it's the normal sort of college dynamic, and you have your problems here and there, and you have people getting up to shenanigans and whatnot. And then so I also was-- I started the K-pop team at UCI, and so it was like in K-pop, K-pop cover dancing, it's mostly girls or women.

And then so as I started my next chapter of I joined a, the UCLA K-pop dance team seven and a half years ago now. And obviously [00:24:00] this was like my s- resurgence into dance, and I was already 27 at the time, and most of them were like college students, so 18 to 22. Again, mostly girls, mostly women. And then so I guess one of the biggest things for me was now knowing what I know and being in these spaces and how it's just unfortunate that whenever there are these sort of problems of you know, Me Too, but also just like in general how things turn out, it's always like just a couple, like one or two guys who just ruin it.

I mean, it's a very complicated issue, but it's like mo- it's most likely going to be a guy who fucks everything up. And so I guess for me, being vigilant of I wanna protect this space for these younger people who... some of these people on the team they're like, "Man, I used to watch you guys in middle school, and now I'm in first year in college and I wanna join this team."

And for the most part it's a safe space, but there's five or six guys there and I'm like, okay, I need to make sure that that we protect this space and nothing goes off the rails. And so that's why I [00:25:00] joined the leadership position, not really because I love K-pop dance, but it's more of as much as I can, I wanna do my best to make sure that they can do what they enjoy.

Because I've seen it happen in college and I've seen it happen throughout here and there, and it's always just a handful of people just mess it up for everyone. And even people, I don't... Maybe this is like an insider thing, but the guys in the K-pop cover scene, there's so many of them who are just like, I don't know, there's a bad rep that are just problematic because there's always just, there's always younger girls and then older guys.

And I'm like, okay, look, I can't control the community, but the, at least I can help maintain as much as I can this space to be like safe so that they can do what they enjoy. But that's such an active process, and then it's just once you... I don't know, unless everyone's aligned on that, it can just go off the rails and, but it's also college team, but I don't know.

Hopefully that's, that gives enough context for me, but I'm like, that's just what I'm trying to do. But now I'm going out of it. It's your guys' problem now. But hopefully the culture maintains, you know, moving forward, right? 

Lil B: Yeah. So 

J.R.: yeah. 

Lil B: Yeah, the reason I brought it up is like I, I wish that that was something that [00:26:00] we had collectively thought about and acted upon in those early formative, you know- Right

I'm a young adult. You're not even like out of high school yet. But if we were already thinking about those things and talking about it in a way that was gonna be conducive to like the community that we're in and the communities- Mm-hmm ... that we'll be a part of, and then what- whatever AOV or all of our other, you know, connected groups will be doing.

Like how do we make sure that we're creating these safe spaces and being able to call in or call out whatever we need to when it comes to like problematic w- guys, really. 'Cause a lot of us were, again, very bro-y, very young, very... We thought we were mature. Some of us thought we were mature. Mm-hmm. But we were very immature.

Of course. Especially... Yeah. So like even when like the Me Too stuff happened, like that was a really like- reality check and me also just being like, is someone... Is my name gonna pop up somewhere for something that I didn't [00:27:00] realize that I had done? Right. 

J.R.: Right. 

Lil B: And it was scary in a way of not like, oh, I got caught on something, but scary in a way of like, I should have been already doing better.

Cause I've always wanted dance to be as safe as it could be, 'cause it was my safe space. Right, right. Of course. You know, growing up, I'm like the short Filipino kid in Daly City. I'm picking, I'm picked on by everything and anyone. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: Start dancing and I'm like, "Oh, I'm a little bit more untouchable.

That's nice." So I- That's true ... I always hope that people could feel that sense of it wasn't just confidence that got me out of it, it was like being in a safe space.

But easier for me as a guy- Of course ... in those early formative years, and I wish I had been more like- Everyone should feel this way.

Everyone should feel like we're doing our part, you know?

But I'm glad to hear you took up leadership positions to, to be able to act on things like that, 'cause I think it takes a lot of us who [00:28:00] have the thoughts on it and the actions and the people that we're connected to, to be like, "A big change needs to happen."

You know? Mm-hmm. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: Yeah, every little group is gonna have their big change, and hopefully that... I'm a really big believer in, like, those ripple effects. Hopefully just- Of course ... something happened- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: bigger, you know? 

J.R.: Yeah. Definitely. Thanks for sharing your perspectives on that.

I think it's very insightful as well. Something to think about as, you know, as we move forward. And for anyone else who's listening in dance spaces I don't know if you know Arnel Calvario, but he's- Oh, yeah ... also a big proponent that, we had had him on the show and, you know, I'm glad that people like him are really active in trying to keep and maintain the, those safe spaces so that future generations can have the ability to grow in those spaces and not be tainted as much as possible.

But it's such an active process, right? Everyone needs to buy in on this and actively maintain the space. Everyone needs to do their part to clean up a little bit. Yeah. And I think that's a, that's always gonna be a s- a very important part of our dance [00:29:00] communities. 

Lil B: I'm so glad you know Arnel.

Arnel is a national treasure. Yeah, yeah. Dude. 

J.R.: He is. He is. It's crazy because obviously he's our Kaba Modern's Yoda but I never really talked with him. I knew him and we had chatted in passing and stuff like that, but it was such an honor to have him on the show to really dig into his- Yeah

story and really connect with him. And he's such he has so much generosity of spirit. And it's like, it's those things where you see him from far away and you're like, "Okay, he seems great." And then you meet him and you're like, "He is actually really amazing." And so- He truly is ... I really appreciate, yeah, I really appreciate people like him, and him especially.

Yeah. He's one of the- Definitely one of my inspirations ... 

Lil B: I always give it up to him because I think everyone in SoCal knows him for who he is, right? Mm-hmm. Especially with the Kaba and all of that stuff. But w- a lot of us also know him as the biggest fan of locking. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. 

Lil B: Like, the biggest. Like- 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah ... 

Lil B: like, anything that Don Campbell was a part of or if with Tiff and Donna, he was there. He loves it. Yeah. And I've always loved, like, I've, I [00:30:00] love him, but I also always loved that about him. He's just like- ... such a it feel it permeates from him.

He's like, "I love this stuff. I love you guys." Yeah. "This is crazy." 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, Arnel's amazing. Ah, I gotta reconnect with him soon, maybe have him back on the show, 'cause even just digging into, you know, his 40-plus years of dance experience and being in the community and history and seeing it over, it's like, in the best possible way, it's like opening up a history book, and you're like, wow none of these things, obviously, you know, we tr- we try to teach history as much as we can 'cause it's so important, and then when you get to speak to someone who was there and who has that sort of, that perspective of how things have changed over the literal decades, I was so fascinated.

I'm like, I can talk to you for hours and just pick your brain and get how you see things and how things have changed, and that's fascinating in itself. But even just being around him and getting his insights and his perspective, and just being inspired by him and how he thinks and how, and what he's currently even still doing to this day is so great.

So hopefully more people can take that [00:31:00] away and be that sort of Arnel in their own space, I feel like. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: You know what I mean? 

Lil B: I agree. 

J.R.: Yeah. Okay, so if, is there anything else that you wanna touch on for, before we get into your own personal origin story and your kind of life trajectory up until now?

Lil B: No, I was gonna leave it to you- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: at this point. Yeah. 

J.R.: I mean, it was good reminiscing and catching up again. I think I said what I th- what I've said. It's, you were a huge inspiration to me, everyone else in the, in our AOV, like First Gen fam, and nice to see people are still dancing and generally doing well.

Yeah, and I think it's just a-- I look back on it fondly with a sense of like pride in a good way to have been a part of that and to have been like connected to you guys. So just wanted to leave it on that.

Okay, so origin story, life aspiration, career trajectory. So Brian Lil B Perez where did you grow up and what were your biggest influences?

Lil B: So I grew up in Daly City, California. Some people would say it's like a little Manila, but- 

[00:32:00] So it's Filipinos everywhere. With 

J.R.: all the- Yeah. All the rice, the fog coming from the rice cookers. 

Lil B: Yeah. We're the home of the first Jollibee in America. 

J.R.: Really? I didn't know that. 

Lil B: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Interesting. I was 

J.R.: there. Oh, really? You were 

Lil B: there. 

J.R.: Yeah. It was a historical event? 

Lil B: It was a 

J.R.: historical 

Lil B: event- That's crazy ... for the Philippines in, in- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: Daly City. Yeah. 

J.R.: That's crazy. I didn't know that. I would-- I mean, that's a good-- I don't know if I wouldn't have guessed, but that's a, that makes a lot of sense 'cause I'm like, okay, what, Milpitas?

Like, I don't know, like somewhere else, but yeah, that makes sense. 

Lil B: Yeah. I don't know why. It was like right- Mm ... it was like five blocks from my house. 

J.R.: Oh, okay. Dang. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Okay.

Lil B: I- It's Daly 

J.R.: City ... 

Lil B: so I, I didn't really grow up s- I wouldn't say I grew up dancing. I was around a lot of music 'cause my dad was a musician.

He played guitar, he played in bands, so I was around music a lot. I liked to sing. Dance was just kind of like always a part of my family in a sense of like- 

J.R.: Genetically ... 

Lil B: yeah. And also you know, I'm growing [00:33:00] up in like the early '90s, so they're just playing like Michael Jackson like- 

All of the time, you know? So, and anytime I see like dance in something like a Disney movie or like the Goofy movie, I'm like that, I want I'm gonna be Max." Yeah. "That's who I'm gonna be." So it was always just like in a little bit like around me. But it's not like I took up like breaking or something, you know?

I didn't like... I was like, "Oh, I wanna learn how to like swipe." I, we, I, of course I did, but then I didn't, it didn't end up being my calling and, I was gonna say I actually got into Dance Dance Revolution my first- That's 

J.R.: right ... 

Lil B: before. Yeah. I was 

J.R.: about to ask. I think my sister told me that.

She's like, "Oh yeah, you know, like Lil B used to do DDR." And then, and I was like, "Oh, really? That makes sense." I guess my sister was also big into DDR too, I think. 

Lil B: Yeah. That was like, to me, my origin story into dance. 'Cause I got into that right before high school, and it was a part of like my whole high school experience.

Mm. Not at my high school, but I had the [00:34:00] DDR community the general NorCal DDR community. And so I was like 13, 14 at the time, and I'm going to like Sunnyvale and Milpitas. Like I even went down to SoCal a couple of times without- Oh, wow ... my family knowing. 

J.R.: How did you manage that- My friends- ... as 

Lil B: a high school 

J.R.: kid?

Lil B: Yeah. So I had a lot of like you, you said, when you came into AoV, like you were the young head. Like I was one of the young heads inside of DDR, and I feel really lucky now looking back and thinking that there were a lot of these people that were like 18 plus, like 20, 20-something plus, who were taking care of us.

Mm-hmm. Like they would take us to the arcade. They would just make sure like we ate and stuff, and it was a very safe environment.

And I think that was really conducive to the way that I thought about communities, you know, later in life. But they really took care of us. They weren't like, like drinking or doing drugs or like anything like that, and like they were like full-on [00:35:00] adults.

Like they just wanted to hang out, be at the arcade or be at their house that had a DDR machine, and we would just... That's all we would do, like play games, just hang out. We were in, in the fighting game community. There's this... a lot of arcade things. So it was more- Right ... like the arcade stuff.

But DDR was also my huge launch into oh, I like to freestyle. So I didn't just hit the arrows. I also like- danced on the machine. That's what I was known for. Mm. And then we had freestyle competitions. I did fairly well at those. And so the age before YouTube, I was already kinda like all over the internet in terms of if people were looking up DDR videos, they had seen me dancing- Mm

from like the ages- Oh, that's cool ... of like 14 to 17, 18. And I still hear about that today. People still say "Oh my God, you're like one of my biggest inspirations." And sometimes I hear it from dancers, and sometimes I hear it from like people who play like DDR things, and I was like, "That's [00:36:00] really cool."

Yeah. 

J.R.: Dang. That's cool. Wait, so were the people that you were with did they not also freestyle or you just kinda got big, you were at the right place at the right time or good enough, or how did that work? 

Lil B: They kind of did- 

J.R.: Were 

Lil B: there a lot of people doing that? I would say back then there were a lot of both, you know?

Okay. Like, I want... S- so the way that I approached it, I was like, I want to dance inside of my freestyle. Or like- Oh ... maybe some of the older guys ahead of me were like, yes, they did dance. They would dance, but sometimes they're like, "I just wanna do it smooth. I just wanna kinda like..." You know what I mean?

So it's like- 

J.R.: Mm-hmm ... 

Lil B: playing DDR with style. 

J.R.: I see, I see. 

Lil B: So there- Okay ... seeing that there's a lot of different inspirations to get from when it comes to it, you know? Yeah. And there were a lot of competitions, like both in NorCal and SoCal, and a- luckily a lot of that got recorded and then footage was uploaded.

It was actually hard to find on YouTube for a long time, but I think they're all there now. But like before it was just like a website, maybe [00:37:00] you could download it. Yeah. And then I also ended up working for Konami when I turned 18. Yeah. So I actually made the arrows for DDR. 

J.R.: Oh, that's crazy. 

Lil B: Yeah. I did that for, like, four...

three, four years. 

J.R.: Oh. And I... 

Lil B: That- What do you mean 

J.R.: by made the arrows? Was it manufacturing sort of, or what? 

Lil B: Oh, no. Sorry. Not, not the steps, but, like, I, I helped like, program. Oh, 

J.R.: like program. Okay. 

Lil B: Yeah. Or, like, like choreograph or whatever you wanna call it. Oh, that's- Like- 

J.R.: That's crazy. 

Lil B: Yeah. We made the step charts.

That must've 

J.R.: been like a dream come-- That must've been- Oh, yeah ... like a dream come true. You're like, "Dude." 

Lil B: Yeah. I literally started that job the day I turned 18. 

J.R.: How did you- And that was- How did you, how did you get into that job? What was that process? 

Lil B: The same group of g- friends. Like- Oh ... they got into the company- Yeah

because they were looking for people to do that job. We'd never been a part of that, but they got into it, and then I was turning 18. They recommended me. 

Yeah. It was, it was- Dang ... a dream come true. And when I wasn't doing... There are seasons for it, right? So when I wasn't working on a [00:38:00] DDR game, that's how I started doing QA, quality assurance, and I've been doing that- I see

since I've been 18. So QA inside the tech industry it's also another dream that people would say "Oh, you get to play video games for a living." I'm like- 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah ... "

Lil B: Yes." 

J.R.: Like, "Yes." That's cool. But, Yeah, I was, I was gonna ask how the... You know, 'cause you've been doing QA since you turned 18, right?

Or whatnot like how that happened. So it was just that, and then you've just been working different companies since then? 

Lil B: Yeah. And I also really like the field. Or I like- Mm ... the idea of it conceptually, that here, someone is making a product. Before it goes out to people, make sure it's something that people would like.

Make sure it's not broken. Make sure it's not something they would wanna return. Make sure it's something they wanna keep purchasing, that kind of thing. I really enjoy that aspect of make sure it's not broken. 

J.R.: I see. 

Lil B: Or if you can, break it, because if you can break it, you can make it better.

And 

J.R.: s- And if you can break it, the, obviously, the consumer can break it as well, right? 

Lil B: Exactly. Like, [00:39:00] maybe- Yeah ... I always like to think about testing as, like, I'm gonna test it as a super user, like a person who wants this to be broken, so they're gonna find a way to do it, and they might have to go through a lot of steps, but they could maybe figure it out.

Or also my mom using a product will she find something- 

J.R.: Oh ... 

Lil B: like, just because she's just playing it. Like a, 

J.R.: like a standard, easy- Yeah ... like an iPhone user- 

Lil B: A casual user ... sort of 

J.R.: like... 

Lil B: Yeah. Exactly. I 

J.R.: see.

Lil B: And so the reason I bring up why these are, like, really formative for me is 'cause I was working on DDR, which is my creative side of my brain, and I'm working on QA, which is the i-i, the objective side of my brain.

I, I think inside of DDR and in my early years of like especially with AOV, I had too much of an objective brain. My dancing was more like in my body and probably in my soul, but I think I was too like, "Oh, that needs to be better. Oh, I need to clean that." 

J.R.: So like when you say objective, you mean like a logical, rational, like [00:40:00] machine approach to...

Gotcha. 

Lil B: Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. So I started working there in 2004. I got into dance, like actual dance, like locking, like 2006 because of my first mentor Shy Guy. Like he was also like my big brother inside of DDR, and then he- Mm-hmm ... became my mentor and big brother inside of dance. Oh, I didn't know he- He was the one 

J.R.: who- I didn't know he did DDR.

Lil B: Oh, yeah. Oh, he was bigger than me, dude. 

J.R.: Oh, interesting. That's cool. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: I was about to ask. Obviously I need to ask you how you got into locking, but that, that explains it. 

Lil B: Yeah, he liter- I, I wasn't even looking to do it. He- Oh ... he was going to college at the time, and he'd learned hip hop and then got, he, he met Siege, g- started learning popping- Right

and then started learning locking, and he just thought to himself, "I think Brian would like this." So he just called me and was like, "Hey, would you wanna learn locking?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'll do whatever." Yeah. You know, 'cause he's my big brother. 

J.R.: Yeah. I was gonna ask, so, okay, so you're doing DDR and then you get introduced to [00:41:00] locking.

What about locking did you really l- lock onto, what, that you really enjoyed as opposed to you would eventually be exposed to these different styles. Why locking at that point? 

Lil B: So it's- Like what about it? ... really funny. When I first started seeing like actual videos of locking that he like Shy Guy I call him Jihan, so I might switch it up Jihan showed me.

Yeah ... so they, we do a lot of like twisting their hats and point at the audience and like stay in position, and then I realized when I was seeing that, I'm like, "These are the things I would do." Like when I was like doing DDR freestyle, I would point at the audience. Oh. I would turn my hat. I liked, I like holding poses.

And so it was just more wow, I think I've, I think I've already naturally kind of been doing this. I didn't know that there was an actual style. 

J.R.: Interesting. 

Lil B: Yeah. So growing up- 

J.R.: So your natural movement was like sim- was very similar when you saw it in locking, you're like, "Wait, I... This is very, this is kinda like what I do already, like my natural [00:42:00] style."

Lil B: Yeah. I think it was a visual whoa, there's a name for this. And then, and I think more than the moves, it was more like the feeling that I- Mm ... I got from it of like, these are just performers. They're performing. And yet, yes, they're dancing, but they're making sure that they're memorable from the way that they dance, the way that they move, the way they show you the music.

And I was like, conceptually, this is all clicking. This makes so much sense to me. And when I'm younger, I only really see, like, breaking, right? Like in high school, I only see, like, breaking. Some people talk about of like, "Oh, the- I learned pop locking," and they would, they would do stuff like this. And I'm like- 

J.R.: Right, right

Lil B: "Okay, it doesn't do anything for me." Mm-hmm. Especially the way you're talking about it. But then when I saw locking, I was like, yeah, there's something. This is really connecting all my links

And I saw I saw P-Lock. So the main ones that you would see e- especially at the time was, like, P-Lock, the [00:43:00] Go Go Brothers, Hilti & Bosch, and then you'd also see them in battles. And when I saw the battles I was like, "This makes so much sense to me." I want to be able to do this. And I'm seeing them on big stages in, like, Japan and Korea and stuff, and I'm like, what's happening here makes so much sense to me that I could do.

When I saw- ... footage of breaking and stuff I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna... I can't even hit one windmill. I'm not gonna try to outdo you when you can do a million. You know? It's just- Oh. Yeah. 

J.R.: Oh, okay. So, so, something about the style, the feel aspect of it and how it made you feel watching it really resonated with you and how you wanted to dance as opposed to these other styles.

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: That, that makes a lot of sense. I will say that even just watching a short freestyle video of you, you are such a feel dancer. And it's so easy to see that. You're like, "Oh, yeah." You watch a Lil B locking video, you're like, "Dude, this dude is feeling it." Like, I think that's a [00:44:00] hallmark of how I see you, your dance style, and so it makes a lot of sense connecting those dots.

Lil B: Thank you, man. That really, like... It touches me to really hear that, 'cause I, I think that's something that I had to... That was a big part of my journey, to understand that about myself. 

Yeah, 'cause I think especially during that AOV year when I said I wasn't really a part of it and I was coming in and out, like I was doing a lot of battles that year.

Like 2010, I think I counted like I did like 45 battles. 

J.R.: Wow. That's crazy. 

Lil B: Yeah. That's more than one a weekend for a year. 'Cause sometimes there was like two or three during a weekend. 

J.R.: Yeah. Why were you... Why do you think you were so hungry? What was the motivating thing maybe 

Lil B: pushing you? So for that one for that one in particular in 2010 was the Gogo Brothers were gonna come to All The Way Live in Fremont.

So they were gonna en- We didn't know why they were coming. I mean, they- Like what? Like why? Like they were invited, but then like- Right ... I didn't know if they were gonna like judge, but [00:45:00] then like they announced judges, so I'm like, "They're not gonna judge. Are they gonna battle?" 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: What's gonna happen?

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: But they just ended up performing. But I went that whole year, like starting from like December, 'cause it was gonna be in like in October or something, that I was like, "If they come here, I want to defend Fremont." 

J.R.: Oh, okay. Okay. 

Lil B: You know what I mean? Like I want- So you're 

J.R.: preparing for battle. Okay.

Lil B: Yeah. I was like, "I want... I know they're the best, but I would like to not let them take it from our home." You know? 

J.R.: Oh. Did you feel- So I was- ... like at that point you were like, it was like you were close enough that you could kind of fill the gap? No. Or- 

Lil B: Not 

J.R.: at all. Okay. You're just like, "Let me just do my best."

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Okay. Okay. 

Lil B: So I traveled as much as I could. I went down to LA a lot that year. Oh. Like I would just take- Oh ... the drive and just be with be at Homeland and be with other lockers and poppers and try to meet the OGs and just train. I trained my ass off that [00:46:00] year. And I think it was like a little bit during that, but afterwards that...

Oh, no, it was actually the day of the battle. I, so I grew up religious. I grew up in a Catholic household, but I never really felt touched by God or, like, in that way, especially through the art. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: But during that day of All The Way Live, I felt like I was on autopilot. Like- 

J.R.: Mm-hmm ... 

Lil B: I just was going. I-- It is weird to say. I felt like I was kinda like watching myself from a distance, and I felt- 

J.R.: Like in a flow state sort of?

Lil B: Yeah. But it was like the whole day. I woke up- Oh ... like I, I knew what trail mix to grab. I knew what clothes to grab. I packed it all nice and neat, which I don't usually do. I drove there and I was like, "I should pick up Subway." And I would go pick up Subway, and I would just like periodically take a bite every like half hour.

It was weird. I just was like, "This is so unlike me." But I kinda felt during it, like during the whole [00:47:00] day, I'm like, I think I'm like hearing or being moved through God. And I used to say like the God, the universe, and now I'm like not so shy to just say like I think it is kind of God pushing me.

But I'll still say universe 'cause that encompasses you know. And so that was one of the, like the turning points for me to be like, you know, what is dance for me? What am I feeling? What am I going for? Like physically, how do I feel about it? Like mentally, like where am I? And then especially emotionally.

So I, I don't know if you knew this, but the-- So I think I met you 22, 23. I lost my dad when I was 21 to cancer. 

And I didn't handle it very well. Like looking back, I think dance was my escape. I know I said that, you know, early on dance was like a safe place, but that's also when- Yeah ... I was like in high school and stuff.

I was like, "Oh, I can kinda dance. I can do things." [00:48:00] But inside of going into DSP or especially going to AOV, that was more like a kind of an escape route just to not deal with my feelings.

I know that now because I've done a couple years of therapy, like primarily on that subject. But looking back I was really lucky that I had all of you guys that just kinda fed my hungry ego, which was hungry because I didn't wanna deal with the loss- Mm

of my father. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: So when it came to understanding my dance and my art emotionally, I felt like it was the closest that I could be to communicating with my dad. So like, when I say like my dad or like God, universe, it all kinda ends up being very similar to me of like just reaching out to the cosmos of this is why when I point, I feel like a ray of light coming from my finger going to as far as it can.

Mm-hmm. You know? Wow. 'Cause I [00:49:00] used to say that about locking. Like when you train locking, like point to the very corner of the room. And what's interesting about that is I- the OGs also carried a similar concept. I just didn't know. But then, you know, I had that too, and I don't know. There's just something about performing or being a performer inside of locking, 'cause I feel like that was my art form, right?

Like my dad's was playing guitar and singing. Like I've seen him in his space for like my whole life and then I'm like, "I think this is mine," where I feel like I can kind of be like that.

I actually haven't thought about these things in a long time. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm.

Lil B: So yeah, it's I think it's a different spin on the context of what I was going through inside of AOV. So that machismo kind of stuff and like being with the boys was also always just be like Don't look at me , but look at me . 

J.R.: Yeah. No, I feel like... Thank, thank you for sharing. I didn't know that.

Sorry to hear that. But it [00:50:00] makes a lot of sense and it gives a lot of context and color. And I will say that I feel like n- a significant part of us have similar experiences where dance is kind of our creative outlet, something that we can direct our energy towards, whether it's we're trying to put something away and not deal with it or just being in the moment 'cause we're so in the zone.

And you know how they say that when you are present in the moment, that's when you are... You know, all the, all the positive emotions are in the present, whereas all the negative emotions are future or past. And so when we're in, in the zone, we're in flow and we're like dancing and we're in the moment, obviously we're happy because we're in the present moment.

So that, that could be seen as like you said, a positive thing or a negative thing. It's like not dealing with our problems, but at the same time helps us to get through it sometimes because it forces us in the moment and just being aware of the present. So, yeah, I really like that. So I guess going back, so you were hungry, you were doing all these competitions.

You wanted to defend Fremont. You mentioned that day you were like in super flow. I'm curious [00:51:00] now, what, so how did that day turn out? What was the, what was the recap of that? 

Lil B: Oh, so the GoKo Brothers didn't end up entering. They just did the performance. The performance 

J.R.: portion. Yeah, yeah. 

Lil B: Yeah. And- 

J.R.: You didn't call them out?

Lil B: No . I've 

J.R.: been training for this, man, all year. Let's go. We're battling one way or another. 

Lil B: Dude, they could... Honestly, oh, should I say this? All they wanted to do in America was just be here and smoke weed . 

J.R.: Oh, yeah. Well . Yeah . 

Lil B: There's, there's 

J.R.: nothing wrong with that, you know? 

Lil B: No, there wasn't, especially at the time where it was- Yeah

just not legal anywhere else. Oh, 

J.R.: yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Lil B: But the recap for it was, I don't remember my exact top eight right now, but in, I remember that I battled Tiff in the top four, and I battled my mentor Shy Guy, in the finals. 

And the judges were Loose Caboose and OG Skeeter Rabbit, and Even though I knew I wasn't going to, [00:52:00] you know, be battling like the GoGo Brothers anymore, it meant a great deal for me to be able to show up against Jihon because during that 2010 year was when my locking transformed from being like

I was gonna say objective-based, but more like just physical, or how do I explain it? It lacked groove. 

J.R.: Okay. 

Lil B: For my first three, four years, it lacked soul and groove in the way that I trained. The way that I dance, it came out, but I didn't train those things. 

J.R.: Interesting. 

Lil B: So it wasn't really until 2010 that I was like...

And it was those late hours, like after AOV practice, I wouldn't even come to practice. But after AOV practice, I would ask, "Could I use the studio?" And I would be there from midnight to 6:00 AM, just drilling, training. I told myself, "I'm gonna prestige my locking, and I'm going to start over from the beginning.

I'm gonna teach myself how to do [00:53:00] it. I don't know it, but I've kind of done it before." 'Cause I played a lot of Call of Duty at the time, and you could prestige your guns, and I was like- 

... "

Lil B: Prestige your locking." So that's what I did. And I had kind of always felt like I was in Shy Guy's shadow for the, for especially that year or two And I kind of wanted to show like, oh, I'm not just his student.

I'm proud to be his student, I definitely am, but I also wanna show that there's a side of me that I worked on, that I trained, that I developed, and I want that to show. And I think that all the way live, especially in the finals, that was the first time because I felt very connected and I was, like, just in that flow state that I feel like that got to be showcased.

Even though that wasn't like-- It's hard to say that wasn't my intention because I don't feel like I really had thoughts during that day. It was just go. Just- 

You've been in hundreds of battles at this point already just go. And I ended up winning, which hon- it was [00:54:00] just big for me. That was a big moment for me to not feel like...

Yeah I feel like I wanted to step out of his shadow, and not in a bad way, not like he, he was bad or anything, just, you know, for me to grow up. 

J.R.: Right.

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: I have a question. Mm. So you mentioned drilling and y- to, into the hours, and you said you were lacking soul or groove, you said, in, in how you trained, but not how you necessarily performed. So the analytical nuts and bolts part of my brain is asking what does that look like? Like, how do you train soul or groove a-apart from how you were doing it?

Like you said, you're trying to reinvent or redo how you do it. So what does that look like? I don't know if it's... You can explain it in words. I'm 

Lil B: just curious. I think I can. Well- Yeah ... hmm, I think I can. When I-- So this really also came to fruition when I went to Okinawa and I learned from Haruki and Risa-San, and they had explained to me, well, a lot of things, but one, one thing that they explained to me was that I'm, I was very rushed [00:55:00] to the picture.

Rush to one, rush to two, rush to three. So there wasn't anything in the middle of that. So in between the one and the two. And so I was like, "Okay, that's really true," 'cause I do like drums, and I feel like I'm just hitting the beats. Mm-hmm. And also when you, when you-- Let's say you just play DDR, you are just hitting one, two- Right

three, four, right? On time, 

J.R.: yeah. So it's-- 

Lil B: Yeah, you're just trying to stay on time. So it was like that missing what's, what goes in between. And so for me, I never use my chest in anything when I dance or when I did locking. It was just like up lock, then lock, and then point, point. It was very stiff.

But my speed made it look cool, I guess. Oh, yeah. Like, I, I wanted to be fast 'cause I figured as a short person, be fast. But also the way that I heard music, I think I hear it very soulfully. And so I was like, "Well, how do I..." [00:56:00] That part, that part where I hear the soul. How does that go into here? So I started more thinking of like, okay, so if my hand comes up and out, you know, I taught this to you guys too, like it comes up and out.

Mm-hmm. What is my body doing? And not just stepping-wise. So I started thinking like, okay, if things start from the center of my chest, it, the, my chest goes up and out and moves with it. And so all my dancing came from there. And then they were like, "But your head's not moving." I was like, "Okay, what does that do?"

And I remember that my friend taught me that the way he does his up groove was like a cat being picked up. 

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: So when you pick them up from the back of their neck their head stays down, right? Uh-huh. So I took that as okay, my chest goes this way, my head follows after. 

My, my chest goes this way, my head follows after.

My chest goes this way, and now I'm just doing that, and now my arms come out with it, or the outer limbs come out with it. So it started being more about... Locking was on the [00:57:00] one, the two. It was just picture frames. And now I'm- Mm ... like filling in that middle- Mm ... with this movement of like-- And it comes from a specific place.

For me, it came from like the middle of my chest, and that's what ignited my hips to wanna move with it, and then my head and my neck and my shoulders. Everything started functioning. I learned about body control better from having that. Even though I'd been around Hazi for years he couldn't explain to me what body control is.

He just had great body control. But my body- Yeah ... control came from oh I'm in this, I'm in a state of flow. Not really flow state, but my body's in a state of flow, and then I stop it or I push it or whatever it is. And that was something that was not taught to me in you know, my first three, four years.

Especially even being with DS players and AOV it was just locking is the picture. 

I guess you could also say like it's like a, it's like a coloring book. Like you're here's the first page, here's a lock, but now I'm gonna color it in. 

J.R.: Oh, [00:58:00] I like that. That makes a lot of sense. That's also h- how I was taught what a groove is.

It's not like A and B, but it's the in-between that, right? Mm-hmm. Would you say that's kinda similar? 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Okay. Okay. D- So you're adding that groove and that soul by unlocking everything in between just the two pictures. 

Lil B: Yes. 

J.R.: Which includes like your chest and your hips and everything. 

Lil B: And yeah.

So something I've been struggling with, even like the last couple years when it comes to like teaching and mentoring was, is there a way you can skip that first four years of me just being that picture book? 

J.R.: Yeah. And 

Lil B: then go right into coloring the page- 

J.R.: Oh ... 

Lil B: and have it all together. But then I was like, maybe you can't, because I think you need those couple of months or years of just straight drilling.

Yeah. 'Cause that's what gave me the physicality to like have the arm strength and speed so that when my body wanted [00:59:00] to be chill, I could have that outer part of me that would just come out. 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: You, you know what I'm saying? 

J.R.: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, 'cause it's like, so in the coloring book analogy, it's kinda like you learn how to draw like the outline, and you need to be good at that before you can just color in, you know?

A- and it's also the same thing as learning- Yeah ... foundation before you can learn how to really be an amazing freestyler, is you need to know the technique, you need to know the foundation, the basics. You can't just start off with just coloring with nothing and the like no lines or anything. So that makes a lot of s- you're right, 'cause you're like, "Oh, can I just start teaching people how to color?"

Like, well, I think there might be order of operations here that would make more sense you know, in lieu of someone just being amazing out the gate, because that happens sometimes. 

Lil B: Yeah. But And so that, that was, yeah. So that was my issue with the way that we were passing on locking in particular. Mm.

I felt like I had to go against the grain to start coloring. 

J.R.: Oh, I see. 

Lil B: You know what I mean? I think it's really important, like I said, to teach and and then learn the foundations and [01:00:00] drill the foundations. Mastering the mundane was what Ceech taught me, but I never really understood what that meant.

I just would just do it. I- no one really explained to me, at some point you're gonna start coloring in this book. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: And that's something that I wish we had really explained better to people, that there, like you said, order of operations, like why this part is important. And I didn't even know at the time when, even when I was teaching, I was just like, "This is what locking is.

Here's the picture." You know? Sure. Get into the picture. 

J.R.: Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, that's... I love that analogy and it's, that's something I'm gonna mull over for the next few weeks. 

Lil B: Oh, me too. The coloring 

J.R.: part- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... is really 

Lil B: good. 

J.R.: Yeah. 'Cause I'm thinking about that as I... I'm currently pivoting back into my freestyle sort of era as I kind of get out of the K-pop cover dance community.

Now I wanna go to dance sessions or clubs or something like that just to learn how to enjoy dancing, 'cause that's where I'm at right m- right now, I'm, like, [01:01:00] learning... I have a lot of technique and foundation of what I like doing, but now it's just like I wanna enjoy dancing no matter what the technique is, and just using what I have.

And then, you know, I know eventually I'll get into maybe taking classes or learning more foundations for things that I wanna learn more of, like house or something. But that's kind of where I'm at now. A friend of mine I just interviewed last time, he was like, he's really big on the joy of dance.

You know, some people just do it and they don't even know why they're dancing anymore. And he's like, "What's really important is, like, why you're doing it and how you feel when you're doing it, 'cause what's the point otherwise?" And so I'm like, you're right. I think that's why I'm trying to be like, I wanna love what I do.

I wanna enjoy. Like, why I got into dance was to enjoy it, and now I feel like I don't, so- 

Lil B: Mm ... 

J.R.: let me be intentional with that. 

Lil B: Yeah. I think s- something that I was talking about... Oh, that's what my podcast was about actually, Let's Talk Lockin'. Oh, yeah. It ended up being more about this, and then the way I was conceptually kinda teaching for a couple years was like I wanted to teach and cater to people who had been teaching.

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: Because exactly what you described, a lot of us go through this falling off of "Why do I [01:02:00] dance? Where's the joy?" Even if you get to that question, it's just where is... 'Cause y- you're thinking so differently about dance, movement, teaching, 'cause you're trying to pass something on. And, and I think it's easy to f- kinda forget you're also trying to share the joy of it, you know?

But it's also because I don't know, there is a joy of it, but some, also sometimes just no emotions, just work. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: Because you definitely need that for a little bit at some point- Yeah ... right? You just need to drill down and do it. But I've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of dancers, a lot of teachers fall off from the art because of not really having anyone to be like, "Let's come back to you now."

You gave so much to your students what about you? They were hungry, you fed them. You're hungry, what do you need? And I think that's really important to give to people and share with people. Make sure you kinda think about yourself too. Remember to go back to yourself. And [01:03:00] then my teacher, Luz Cubus, will always say "Remember what it was like when you first started dancing."

Mm. Remember how fun it was. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: It wasn't about the frustration. It wasn't about "Oh, I can't do that." It was like, "I wanna try that." And the other thing too, and this is like advice for you too when it comes to going back into it, and I think something we don't talk about enough in dance is that it's about the music, your connection to the music.

Without music, there is nothing for us. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Lil B: You know? So give it up to your DJ. Like follow, find DJs that like re- resonate with you. Find music that resonates with you. Sometimes it's not even just about the people and the vibe, because you could be that person and the vibe. You might be the one who's like bringing it to that room, but it's because your connection to music.

And I think that's, yeah, again, I think it's something that we just don't really speak on enough, especially inside of well at least what I'm part of, inside of like the locking culture. Like what music? Why this music? [01:04:00] And how do we introduce new ones? Or like what makes you feel like you're gonna go all off today?

And back then I would be like, "Dude, if you play J-pop for me, done," you know? But no one's gonna play that. Like it has to be- Yeah ... James Brown. Yeah. But yeah. I was gonna say I didn't get into this until I was 30, but I got into raving, and that has been amazing for my reconnecting to my joy of dance, of just being a person who dances.

J.R.: And 

Lil B: I- 

J.R.: What part of raving-- when you say you got into raving what does that mean? 

Lil B: So I started going to festivals 

J.R.: and- To-- Going to festivals, okay. 

Lil B: Yeah, I think that's the big one, and then I'll go to local shows. I found some artists that I like, and I liked, I like dancing at those.

I also got into gloving. That's actually been a big part of my- Mm ... my journey the past couple years. But besides that, it was also just going and being like, "No one knows who I am here." 'Cause I, you know, I spent almost 20 years [01:05:00] being inside of communities where now everyone knows my name, now everyone knows my face.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's expectations sometimes, whether that's good or bad. I've had it all of it. And so it was also nice just going to a place where I'm like, "Wow, it is just about this environment of this music and everyone be free." Whereas in dance community, it was like, "Here's music.

What y'all got?" 

J.R.: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I, I get that. It's like, yeah that's kind of also why I'm gravitating towards, you know, telling my girlfriend like, "Can we go clubbing this weekend?" 'Cause I really just wanna go to a place where it's, there's not like there's that pressure of having to dance or like, at jams or sessions where it's okay, everyone's working on something and skill, and you get to meet people and whatnot.

But just going into those spaces for you raves, and for me it's finding these events where it's, yeah, I just wanna dance and just enjoy the music and just not have to be anything for anyone and just... Like, isn't that the whole point is to enjoy that? And so- It is ... [01:06:00] yeah, I love that. 

Lil B: It is the whole point.

And like you said, sometimes as teachers we'll forget because we're putting something else ahead of that. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it's a different intent than what you just said, like, when we started dancing. That was a different intent than when we're trying to teach and pass along what we've learned, right?

Lil B: Mm-hmm. 

J.R.: I like that. I don't know if you have any thoughts, but I wanted to ask you, so now that we zoom back. So you mentioned your career trajectory, but also your dance car- your dance career over time has-- Well, it's evolved over time, but I wanted to ask if you, if anything came to mind specifically how it has...

So I mean, you mentioned the whole learning the soul and the groove of it, and then you're, you know, going to raves and then gloving and whatnot, and then your day job career sort of thing has also it's been consistently QA and whatnot. Was there any other big inflection points for either of those paths that you wanna throw out there?

Lil B: Relationships and friendships I think are huge.

Huge in all of that. You know, the people I surrounded myself with, the re- the relationships [01:07:00] like dating-wise that I was in. 'Cause the reason I say that as a big pain point too was that was a lot of growing up and needing to mature because of that same thing I told you when I was using dance as like my escape to deal with things.

That means I also wasn't dealing with it inside of relationships where it was really gonna be important. To understand myself and if I have a short fuse, why I was having a short fuse. Like it could not even be anything part of the relationship, it could just be me and my dad, and I don't know.

So-- And also with my friends, like there are a lot of times I will shut down and be hard to reach and like that I didn't realize till you know, doing therapy that I was like, that's just me needing to shut down to collect myself because I'm overstimulated or I'm overthinking. So, and dance has been amazing for me because it's made me some lifelong friends of different ages, different [01:08:00] backgrounds.

Some of my best friends are hours away by flight now. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: You know? Which is like a beautiful and like very hard, difficult thing sometimes. But like I, I love that dance has really connected me to people that I'm like, "I get you, and you-- I really s- feel seen by you." And it wasn't just because of the way that I dance, it's the way that I carried myself, the way that I, I shared how I was feeling, what my journey has been like.

But especially-- I think the big thing is just how I've been feeling 'cause I travel so much and I have a lot of gratitude for being able to travel, right? And

I think it's really important that as an artist and as a person that wanted to be connected to people, that we need to be able to work on ourselves and share the tools and methods that we've used to try to work on ourselves and what worked, what didn't, and also just going through that thought process, you know?

So when I was doing the podcast it was really [01:09:00] an open public therapy thing for me and Kystar.

And I, I think the other big point inside of all of that you were asking, I think me finally going to therapy like four or five years ago- 

J.R.: Mm-hmm ... 

Lil B: was such an important step for me. So important. And I grew up in a, in an age of guys that were like, "I don't need therapy. No, that's, that, that's only for crazy people," you know?

I mean, maybe it's also just being Filipino, but- Sure. No, of course. Yeah ... I also don't, oh, right? Which is crazy because a lot of my family is inside of the health field and they would- Uh-huh ... still be like, "No one needs therapy like that. Unless you have-" Yeah ... something." You know? I'm like, "No. 

J.R.: I 

Lil B: needed it.

I didn't know that." 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: But I say that because, and again, I think it's kinda a little bit for full circle that us especially as guys never really talked about things like this, like needing certain kinds of help [01:10:00] or if we can help each other with it, you know? And me finally going to therapy for things like my dad, my, Hmm.

I forgot about this. You had asked me before, like, "Do you call me Brian or Little B?" And for you especially, I'm like, "It's either one, man." You-- I know you-- We-- You called me Little B before. But I also went to therapy because I had this fracture of which one am I? 

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: And I didn't know how to handle that for a long time.

They felt like separate people. 

J.R.: How so? 

Lil B: I felt like Little B was the person on stage, and then Brian was the person in the audience. 

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: And I was like Is that true? Is that true in a way that I am w- I'm either, either/or, and there's no marriage of the two? Or what is it? Because that also shine in like some of my relationships where like they don't know who they're getting today.

J.R.: Oh, interesting. So you felt like they were distinct people [01:11:00] and you didn't know how to reconcile that? 

Lil B: Yeah. 

And again, I think, well, yeah, like I know that kind of spawned from, again, like me being inside of dance and being as little B, as much as little B as I could be without feeding Brian.

So I didn't actually reconcile that until a couple years ago, which I think is actually very, is big for me ins- inside of like my relationships now. It took a really long time to get here, and I think I hurt a lot of people on the way. And it sucks that that's something I think that a lot of journeys don't talk about either.

Like I have had a great life of being able to travel, meet people, like my best friends are all over the world, but I've also fucked up a lot.

And those aren't just things that like you, you shove under. It's something that I have to think about and make sure to learn and do better, you know? 

J.R.: Mm-hmm.

Lil B: There was a podcast before that I was on where they were asking like, you know, "Why do you-- why did you start locking?" And "What keeps you locking?" And I was like, "Why don't we ask like, why [01:12:00] did you wanna stop?" And so like, why did that, like, where did that thought from, come from, and why did you wanna keep going?

You know? 

J.R.: Ah. 

Lil B: Because sometimes I think it's the pitfalls and the ceilings that are harder than when you see the blue skies as, as grand as it could be. You could do anything. When you feel like you can't, you can't do anything anymore, how do you pick yourself back up? How do you get out of the hole?

J.R.: Was there anything from that thought? Like why, what makes you wanna stop and then keep going?

Lil B: When it comes to locking I-- the big one for me is Don Campbell. Don Campbell's the creator of locking. He passed away a few years ago. And my two friends on my crew Fire Lock and Hurricane. Like

They make me want to keep going. They make me know that I will never stop. I can't wait

That locking is not just black or white. It needs a little brown. 

J.R.: Oh, [01:13:00] okay. Okay. You want to elaborate on that? 

Lil B: I ... This kind of rounds back to growing up in Daly City. Growing up in Daly City, I was, like, the short Filipino guy, but my influences are from everywhere, right? Growing up my parents came from the Philippines, so they're not teaching me about A- America.

They're not teaching me about hip hop, but they're also kind of going into The white life of going into corporate or being inside the hospital. Like we have to assimilate. They're not saying this, but that's how they're living. Right. But I'm also like learning about hip hop and dance and like all of that, like MTV music videos, like those are impacting me just as much as it is be inside of a good school, get good grades, go that path.

Is this path also bad? No, you, you become all things that like matter to you, that are important to you, that affect you, influence you. And I, it's-- I think especially when I taught [01:14:00] overseas in China, they saw dance, and especially locking 'cause that was, like, my forte of it's Black or white.

So there was no understanding American culture. There was no s- understanding Black culture and Black history. And I'm not Black, but I grew up in Inside environments where I get to learn about it, be parallel to it, understand where there's parts that affect me and there's parts that don't affect me And there's parts that I benefit and there's parts that I'm a part of.

So when it came to me locking, understanding the soul aspect and all of that, the way I color, it comes from my experience in life. I, again I'm not like, I'm not like Omar or Firelock. He has ex- different experiences being a Black teacher that travels overseas than I do. So there are things that we can do together, there's things that we need to do separately, and there's things that I need him for, [01:15:00] and there's things I know that he needs me for because of not just, like, how I view this dance and the way I carry myself, but my experience and how I can speak on it.

Or teaching Asian culture sometimes, like what it means to be free because inside of your cultures there's no concept of free, so how do you... You know what I mean? I'm not saying that they don't have freedom, but it's like understanding what Americans have gone through in the sense of that to feel like you, you're always being held down.

How do you open up? 

So, like-

I've had the pitfalls before a lot of the times of like maybe there's a huge battle I wanted to win and then it doesn't go well, so I'm like, "Well, what now?" Or try So You Think You Can Dance, and I'm like, "Well, I can't do choreo anymore, so what now?" And I'm lucky enough to have a partner that is also very into dance and wants to make sure that we're always involved in it.

So that, that keeps it going But on the grand scale, yeah, I know I'll never stop being a locker. I'll never [01:16:00] stop being the person that reminds people that Don Campbell was the one that created this dance, and his only message was, "Be you and keep it locking." And be you, I think is the most important part, 'cause he was never anyone but himself.

This is why, dude, every time I think of-- Th- this is so funny that I'm looking at you talking about this. Every time I think of Don saying that, I think of Arnel. 

J.R.: Oh. 

Lil B: Because I feel like Arnel is very like, "Yes, be you." Yeah. And he is him, you know? Yeah. Like, he's a, he's, he's a golden treasure because I think he's a, he's one of the people that really carries that.

You know, not just as a locker. I think that's why he's such a fan of dance in general and people get to be themselves. 

J.R.: Mm. And 

Lil B: he's such a good person to display that Yeah, sorry. That's a huge tangent all over the place. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. So, make-- So correct me if I'm wrong. So it seems like the reason why you keep going is because you know that you have this perspective that you want to [01:17:00] continue to contribute to those spaces about the essence and the meaning of locking Don Campbell and everything of being yourself and whatnot, and you feel like the more people in that space to give their perspective and to keep that spirit alive is very important.

Lil B: Yeah, exactly. 

J.R.: Yeah, thanks for sharing. Let's see. I know we're on a few different things as you were speaking. We touched on the therapy thing that I think is very interesting. But also there's a few other things like the state of locking and also the differences between the early eras of when you started dancing until now, and then you also mentioned the traveling aspect.

Is there anything you wanna touch on first? Otherwise, I'll just pick one randomly. 

Lil B: You can pick one. 

J.R.: Okay. Let's go to well, okay, jet-setting journeys and dance. So you mentioned this wording of advising people on how to travel or traveling or trying it to dance and how feasible it is. What did you mean by that exactly?

Lil B: So I know that a big part of my journey was being able to [01:18:00] have enough funds that I was able to travel and move places. So, yes, I did travel for battles, but I also moved to LA twice, and then to New York and to China. So, like- The reason I'm like, "Is it even feasible for people?" is 'cause I know I was crazy-

in doing some of the things that I did. 

J.R.: Crazy in what way? 

Lil B: So, okay, so for, the first time I moved to LA, the only reason I moved, the only reason I was able to move, I should say, was because I bought a scratcher and I won $500. 

J.R.: Oh, perfect. Divine 

Lil B: intervention. And I was like, I was like, "It is time to try to see what it's like to be a dancer in the industry."

So I-- And I was also getting out of a relationship at the time. I was just like, "I gotta get out of here. You know what? I'm just gonna go do it." So I don't-- I'm realizing now 'cause I'm actually catching up with you. My, [01:19:00] my cycle was go to school for a little bit sometimes, then really go hard at work, and then really go hard at dance, and it was always like a cycle.

And sometimes they touched for a little bit, but I had these moments of just "I just gotta go try again d- with dance." 

'

Lil B: Cause there was still a part of me that wasn't a believer that this could be a way to live my life- 

J.R.: Okay ... 

Lil B: s- successfully, I guess. I wasn't really sure. And so I think 2011, yeah, I was just like, "Time to go.

Time to go to LA." And I even told my mom, I was like, "If I call you crying for help, just hang up, dude." "Just let me suffer." 'Cause again, I also know that I was lucky to have a bit of a silver spoon in my mouth. My mom always provided and she would take care of me. But I was like, "But what if you didn't?"

Yeah, 

J.R.: yeah. 

Lil B: What life lessons do I learn from that? 'Cause that was big for me. My-- The OGs that I was learning [01:20:00] from would tell me sometimes these competitions they weren't always just dance competitions, right? In, in LA it was like like talent shows. And the money for them, the prize money was paying rent.

You know? So it was like do or die, and you gotta beat that juggler, beat that dancer, or we just gotta do it because we're gonna be out on the streets. So that do or die, that fire under your ass, I was like, "I've never had that." So my dumb 23-year-old ass was just like, "Well, let's just go light a fire and tell everyone don't save me from it.

What happens?" I don't know if these are the types of things I would advise people to do. So I look back at my journey and I'm like, ooh, a lot of it was running away from feelings of my dad, and a lot of it was a lot of... I won't say it was completely immature, but it was just really, it was really gutsy to just try and go do these things.

So like risky. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: Real-- I was very risk [01:21:00] adverse for whatever reason. I was like, "Just go." But I learned so much from those things, from the traveling, from living in a new place, from being accepted into different communities. Es- I think especially when I moved to New York the first time I moved there in the dead of winter for some reason, and it was so hard.

But I also remember going out to the clubs and people were coming at me. They were like, "I know you roll with Fire Log. I know you're from Cali." Mm. "Like, what you got?" And I was just there trying to have a drink. But I'm like, "Well, I can't just- Yeah, 

J.R.: yeah ... 

Lil B: you know, sip on my drink and be with my girl. I actually have to show up here."

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: But then later being, like, accepted by those guys in the community. I feel like I was able to play good parts in being there the times I was able to. You know, I remember there even when I was in New York for almost a year, people were telling me "There's a huge influx of people just enjoying locking now, I think just because you were [01:22:00] here."

You know? 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: And I took a lot of pride in that, in being like I love that, 'cause also I think locking is that easy. I really feel like it is. It takes a lot of work, but the enjoyment of it, I feel like comes easy. Mm. And I wish that more dance style practitioners could enjoy that for themselves, too, right?

The aspect of locking's just very easy, freeform. Yeah, it's just I don't know if I would be like, in 2026 could I be like, "Yeah, you're 22. Just go try living in LA if you wanna see what it's like to be an artist or inside the industry."

And I didn't have a good time. Just, just- Oh, 

J.R.: yeah? 

Lil B: Yeah.

I remember a couple months in it was like every day was a rejection letter, a rejection email, a rejection text. It was brutal. 

J.R.: Rejection in what sense? Like, for work or- 

Lil B: So auditioning for things. 

J.R.: Audition- Auditioning ... okay, gotcha, [01:23:00] trying to break in- Yeah ... as a dancer. Gotcha. 

Lil B: Yeah. It was very, very rough. I I know I could have asked some mentors at like Bionic at the time for more advice or hookups, but I was like, "I just gotta know what it's like if it's just me."

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: And that was only because I wanted to be able to tell people. Like, when I went to the Philippines, people asked me, like, "What's it like in Hollywood?" I was like, "Well, let me tell you." Let me give you a reality check. I'll 

J.R.: tell you. Yeah, I'll tell you what it's like. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: I wanted to see for myself and I got it.

Lil B: Yeah. Same thing when I moved to New York, it was really just the same thing. Okay. It was like testing, testing that quote. If you can make it here you can make it anywhere. I'm like, I made it. I don't know about anywhere, but that felt good. 

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. There's a couple of things. So traveling, so I know the question was more like, okay, traveling for dance, but I think the heart of it, if I'm not mistaken, is if you can break into dance as I guess a professional or some sort of level of success- Yeah

as a dancer. And you're saying that is very risky, of course, because it's so hard [01:24:00] to break in no matter if you're in Hollywood or New York or something like that, or even overseas.

I guess I'm curious, like- What if is there a way for people to do that in a less risky, safer way? You know, like having a job and then doing this part-time, or some sort of method where they can, support themselves and not be so risky.

But also, what if... I approached this question initially as "Oh, you mean just traveling for dance, but not necessarily making it, but just doing it for fun?" 'Cause I feel like there are some people who might just wanna do that. Mm-hmm. And maybe there's the-- you can separate the financial piece and you know, making a living, but also just "Oh, I just wanna travel the world and dance."

What are your thoughts on those? 

Lil B: On just traveling the world and dance, I really do advise, just go do it. 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah. 

Lil B: Like, if you have the means go try it. Go to an event. It doesn't mean that you have to enter the competition to win, it just means you get to see a lot of people- Mm-hmm ... in that environment.

We went to Korea two years ago, my first time in Korea, and there was [01:25:00] pre-parties, post-parties and there was, like, 500 entrants for a 2v2 locking. I was like, "This is-" Oh my 

J.R.: God. 

Lil B: It-- You know what I mean? I was like, "This is insane." I actually had culture shock, and I was really confused and surprised.

But you don't know about those things. Like, when people say culture shock, you really don't know until you're feeling it. 

J.R.: That's true. 

Lil B: You know, you can hear about someone's experience, but, like, when you're there and you're experiencing what that is, I think that's a huge potential growth moment for a lot of people, you know?

It's also beautiful to see how different communities and different cultures take to the dance styles that we do.

You know? I'll always advise dude, if you're into locking go to the Philippines. Mm. Amazing. Amazing. They lock like- What's it like? This is probably my hot take, but I think the Philippines has the most groove and soul and understanding- Really?

of locking. And I think- Why do you 

J.R.: think that is? 

Lil B: I think it's because they're the ones who feel like they [01:26:00] understand hip hop in the same way that Americans do. 

J.R.: Okay. 

Lil B: In a sense of it's freedom. This is me expressing my f- my want of freedom of movement and life, and I feel like they just approach it the correct way.

Or it-- one of the, one of the correct ways of just like, "This dance makes me feel from here." Right. "And I want you to feel when you see me." You know, like the actual transfer. It's not just "Oh, I'm trying to show off to you. I'm trying to impress you." It's "Do you feel how I'm feeling?"

And I get that so hard from them.

And I felt like when I taught there, they asked a lot of questions of you know, "What is it like living in America? We hear we have to learn more about Black culture. What can we do to do better about that?" And I'm like, oh my God, like realizing their ceiling is being here because they ha- they can't be with a Black community.

They can't be a part of a march in Oakland to be like, this is what it's about." They can't do that. Mm. So like, [01:27:00] again, I'm kind of like a person to kind of try to explain to them. But not just be like, "You have to go live there." It's just like, "Ooh, if I was in your position and I wanted it that badly, this is what I would try to do," you know?

Or how to speak on things. And yeah I think early on in my career, what was really beautiful about being a practitioner of locking was meeting other people where we did not share the same language. We could not speak to each other well if we needed to ask for directions. But when we danced, it was like, "You're my best friend, dude."

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, 

Lil B: yeah. I feel it. I see it

So breaking bread with somebody after that just feels so different, you know? 

J.R.: That's so true. I feel like that's a, that's such a... I w- I wanna say that's a universal experience when you're in the hip hop dance scene like that, where it's we don't know, we don't speak each other's language, but when we dance, it's like we're speaking the same language 'cause we connect over that same thing.

And to your point you know, hip hop dance styles born [01:28:00] in America and then kind of exported to these other countries and, you know, we're international and it's global. But how each culture receives what it originally is will obviously depend on the lens that they're seeing their world through.

Right. So that makes a lot of sense. And so, like you're saying, maybe we feel, maybe you feel like the Philippines... s- there's something in the culture that really resonates with Black culture or American Black culture in that sense, and that's why they're really at a high frequency resonation with locking.

Yeah. you know that one that old documentary Planet B-Boy from, like- Yeah ... 2007 or something like that, right? I do, I did a, I did a college thesis on that paper. But be- because of the whole hip hop thing now it's like multi inter- it's international hip hop culture.

And it's that same thing where it's like everyone will take their own spin on it, but that's the beauty of it because now you're kind of, connected by that culture, whereas normally you'd be divided by barriers, by, by- Right ... nations and et cetera. I think that's such a crazy important point, especially for people who aren't in, who aren't exposed to that, right?

Lil B: Yeah. And I [01:29:00] feel like locking especially is very rooted in Black culture.

Like I was taught or I'd heard you know, when you do a muscle man or you raise your fist, that, you know, that's to represent, you know, like Black culture. Mm-hmm. Like the brotherhood. And even me during that time, I was like, "But there's a lot of us non-Black people doing this now.

Does that definition get to be refined and updated?" I'm not entirely sure yet, but I feel like- Right ... at least in my circles, it does stand for something a little bit more than just that, you know? But, you know, again, understanding, like, why it was that in the first place is really important. It's not to take away from that, it's to kind of share in that.

J.R.: Of course. I wonder if you have thoughts on this, but maybe for a lot of non-dancers this might be a little bit new. But you know, there's the, there's this idea of, oh, you should keep politics out of dance. And then people who don't know, be like, you do know that a lot of these hip hop [01:30:00] styles are politically based.

They're based on the oppression of Black people. So to say that, "Oh, you should keep politics out and just dance," it's like, that's the whole point, guys. That's why these were created, so you can't just remove that. Yeah. I, I- 

Lil B: I don't 

J.R.: know if you had thoughts ... 

Lil B: I do feel like there is... It's always time and place and intention.

Yeah. Right? You set up the right intention for either/or, and it's gonna be the right place for it. I think if you walk into a regular old dance event expecting there to be, like, a change, but everyone's just there to enjoy themselves, yeah, you're gonna be like, "We need to do better." 

J.R.: Of course, of course.

Yeah. 

Lil B: I do think it's important that especially within our dance cultures, 'cause we have so many different communities, that the leaders need to be able to speak up on these things.

To know maybe we don't always get to it, but it's important for us to think about, because when an opportunity presents itself, it's always a call to [01:31:00] action.

That's why we have to keep it in mind. The call to action that when we need to show up, we can show up. It doesn't mean you always need to be fighting the system, but be ready to if we need you. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: I think that's what's cool about dance, is that being together as a culture is inherent in it.

We're not dancers on our own. We are connected to the music because we all hear the same thing, and it would be beautiful if we could hear those same messages of like why politics or why we need to be involved in politics and hear the same thing. In the same way like when you hear music and it makes you move.

If I hear this, it- it's gonna make me move. So there's a lot of lessons I think people can take away from being a dancer and then being a person. 

I used to say that life equals dance, and it was very much because the things I learned in dance end up being very useful inside of [01:32:00] life.

J.R.: That's true. That's what I was always taught, too, is like dance is an art and art is life. Like how we do everything is li- like how you walk is art, right? And so I think you can't separate that from your life. And then on the other point too is like that's something that Arnel always drilled into us, at least in, in the KM family, which is like history, knowing your roots and everything.

And I know a lot of really good teachers will say that as well. It's like you have to know where things come from because that's how you know and understand the essence of what it is, and I think that's also important. It's like you can't detach an art form and an art style from its history and its roots, and I think that was like an important takeaway for me.

I guess while we're talking about history, I'm curious now going on to how dance was like in the early 2000s versus now with like obviously more social media. Do you have any general thoughts on how it's changed? 

Lil B: Yeah, I've been kind of mulling over this recently 'cause one of my first mentors, Seich from DS Players, [01:33:00] was telling me...

'Cause, you know, he's been teaching for 30-plus years and he's been saying it's so different these days of having dance classes where he feels like the people that come in to take class are no longer impressed by dance itself. Like they don't- 'cause they're not coming to class to be impressed because they've already seen what impresses them on social media.

J.R.: Yeah. Mm. 

Lil B: Now they're there to just hopefully receive some training Whereas before, there wasn't a lot of access to s- to seeing a lot of videos. I see, yeah. So when you went to a dance event or a dance class, you were both impressed and taking in knowledge. 

J.R.: Mm. It's like- So like- ... all at once. 

Lil B: Yeah. So we talked about that joy factor of your beginning.

That joy factor he feels is no longer in the classroom. Mm-hmm. That joy factor was that person at 11:00 PM in their bed before they go to sleep watching dance videos. 

J.R.: Okay, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. 

Lil B: Right? So I've been [01:34:00] thinking about that too, of let's take my dance for instance. I feel, I-- the way I perceive myself is I feel like the way I am in person is very different than when you experience it on a video.

Also, I'm much shorter than people realize. 

J.R.: Everyone looks taller on video, especially during the solo cut. 

Lil B: Dude, people hella, I've s- so many people have been like, "Whoa, I thought you were way taller." I was like- It's like- ... "Where do you think the Little comes from?" 

J.R.: Guys, it's in the name. Come on. "Hey Little B, where are you?"

Oh. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Okay. Damn. Like, look, I warned you, okay? I prefaced it. Yeah. That's literally my name. That's funny.

Lil B: Yeah I feel like It, it's like if, for instance, before I wanted to do like online tutorials, like locking tutorials, and I feel like it doesn't give the essence of what I wanna share to just, again, to go through the pictures. But then I also can't help you color [01:35:00] if I can't see the way that you're coloring.

J.R.: Oh, that's true. 

Lil B: Right? So when I see the joy that you have putting red and I'm like, "Well, have you tried some yellow with that?" That's more... And again, this is I think why we distinguish the bit between like teachers and mentors, 'cause you can see- 

J.R.: Mm ... 

Lil B: how you can like help guide somebody. But again, when you're just talking about what it must be like now for people to have all the information in the world, all the videos that they can see, but also none of the context.

A lot of people now have a lot of access to the Red Bull dancer style videos.

But they don't have a lot of the context of what it is to be inside that event, to be a Red Bull dancer, I guess, also. 'Cause it's also different than the events that you and I grew up being in, you know, where like we don't know the music that's gonna play because it's not limited by what can be played on Instagram.

J.R.: Right. 

Lil B: Oh, that's true. It was really like DJ's choice. But there's a finite list of what they can use and [01:36:00] maybe even what the dancers have access to. It's different.

It's different than people like Machine Gun Funk, like training their asses off. It's 'cause when they go to an event, they wanna blow the competition away.

It's different in the way that you need to approach it, I guess. So, I think there's a lot of those little things that's kind of lost from like our generation to pass on. 'Cause we are that bridge generation of like we, we kinda almost had social media. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: And then now it's like full on, so we kinda got to live through all of that, right?

Like the 

J.R.: in between or the transition, yeah. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: So how do you think that changes the ex- I mean, maybe it's very inherent, but how do you think now that changes the experience for a current era dancer not being impressed in class, but really being exposed to the entire spectrum of the highest level of skill and whatnot?

How does that change the experience? Does it make it harder, or is it just it's not the essence of it, or do you think [01:37:00] it changes their outlook on dance or the dance style they're trying to learn, or what do you think? 

Lil B: So I'm still thinking about this part in particular to Ceech's class, which is a beginner intermediate hip hop dance class at Mission College, so community college.

Yeah. I think it's different for if I were to be having classes again and... 'Cause I'm just gonna focus on locking, and if people come in, I can already kinda gauge their interest and what they know, what they've seen. I even ask them, you know, "Who do you watch? What inspires you?" "Why did you wanna learn from me?"

It's very different than learning, like- blanket generic college student in like their first couple years are just like, "Oh, I wanna take hip hop 'cause I've been like watching a lot of stuff the past couple years," or whatever it is. "I wanna go learn that." 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: That was it's interesting because when you even think about that part, you have to think about it from the student's perspective of what that must feel like and what they're looking for, and then the teacher to be like, "Well, this is different now."

" Do I just teach it?" like a [01:38:00] blanket thing or do I get a lot more involved? Who are you watching? Oh, you like empty pop stuff. I don't do that. Like, you like, or whatever it is. I don't know. Yeah. There's there's also kind of an information wars, I guess, when it comes to being inside of the dance community of being a teacher.

I'm like, am I just gonna teach the things that I know, or am I really involved in the global aspect of the community and like really also taking on social media and understanding what people are watching so I can help share that or explain things, give context. I don't know. I'm still thinking on it.

I think there's, it again, I think it's just a lot to take in and I think it's important to think about. I'm happy for these questions. 

J.R.: Yeah. I have some thoughts, at least from my perspective too- Mm-hmm ... on how I've seen, 'cause like I still currently dance with younger people, like in college, and a lot of them are very new dancers, and again, not in the freestyle space, but mostly in the choreography and the K-pop cover space.

But I think, well, well, my, my background is way different than theirs because they see something [01:39:00] online, like a K-pop dance, and they wanna learn that. And then- Mm ... because of social media, it's very much they're trying to replicate the aesthetic of that final product of the Instagram video that they're gonna post.

And so I understand that that's getting from A to B is like, okay, they wanna look like this and post it, and then, you know, like the TikTok dance or like the K-pop dance. And so because of that, how it's different from how I approached or how I learned dance, which is first off, like I wanna do cool things and I wanna look cool and do these styles by people who inspired me, and then, but more importantly is how I want to feel when I do it.

And then you get into the choreography scene where it's okay, now you need to match certain aesthetic or a certain line or angle or whatever and do a choreography like the choreographer. But then when you get into like K-pop cover, then it's okay, well, I wanna emulate everything that they're doing, this artist and I wanna look just like that.

And so now it's like a different approach of how I approach dance, which is okay, what is the move that they're doing? Maybe where it came from, but also what style is it generating from? Because with choreography nowadays, it's very [01:40:00] like everything cul- comes from everywhere, and these choreographers also pull from so many different styles and inspirations that it's like this choreographer is not a isolation popper choreographer, or this person's not a house choreo.

They're, it's, they're literally just a choreo dancer that just pulls from everything. And so sometimes you'll miss those in-betweens when you have a beginner dancer trying to learn just a combination that they don't know that there is this sort of house step here or this hip hop groove step or this funk step here.

And then so they'll try to do the move as you see it as the lines, but not really know how to do the underneath, I guess is how I would explain it. And it's hard because it's like I can't go through a 30-minute class on how to do like an up rock or something like that. I-- But I can show you that, okay, generally, here's how to do this four count right here, and it comes from house or whatever, or it comes from salsa or whatnot, but just know that this is kind of how you do it.

And then there's always that gap, which I understand, that they're not gonna have so it's like condensing everything. Okay, where's the minimum viable product of what I need to teach you for you to feel comfortable? [01:41:00] But then I guess as an active teacher, there's always gonna be the gap of I'm never gonna teach you how to feel in dancing.

I'm really just getting paid right now to help show you how to look like this. And so I think you and I both know that that's not really why we got to dance, is just to look like a choreography thing. It-- We got to dance because we wanted to feel and grow and feel good about what we do, and maybe grow in technique, but also enjoy the art, just enjoy painting just for the sake of painting.

So that's kind of the gap where I see... But, and I get that why it's a lot influenced by social media is because they see and they wanna do that, and that's totally fine, but it's very different. 

Lil B: Yeah. And the reason I brought it up with you is because I know you've been teaching for a long time, and like you said, it's that gap, right?

Of like W- okay, how much does a gap really mean to us? And how much will this gap... the gap for the students, they don't even know there's a gap, so they can't even have thoughts or feelings on it. But- 

J.R.: Mm-hmm ... 

Lil B: I think I've experienced it a lot where it w- it, it kinda [01:42:00] hurt that I was like, "Mm. I want to give this to you, and I don't know if 

J.R.: I can."

Yeah. Like, you know, if this is important, this is important for how I learned it and how I wanna teach it, but I don't think I can, right? 

Lil B: Yeah. It and like you were saying, like, when we came up in dance it's even with AOV, and it's funny when thinking about that and I'm thinking about Don Campbell's message, it's actually pretty similar.

Don's message is be you, and AOV's message is who are you? 

J.R.: Yeah. Know your rank. 

Lil B: Yeah, know your rank. Like, who are you? And it, it's, I get that that one was a little pushy, but I also- Sure, 

J.R.: sure, sure ... 

Lil B: wonder how important that is for us to, to us to still consider. Is that something just for our close circles that we're dancing with, or is that something we can help promote inside of dance?

Mm-hmm. You are learning this dance and this routine. Who are you with it? I don't know if that's important to ask or know. And like you said sometimes that for the general they're just [01:43:00] coming to take it and learn it, and maybe that's cool. And I wonder, like, how does that make you feel sometimes?

So it, and again, it could just be about the money, could just be about the job. But then, like we were saying, it also kinda takes away from the artistry of it in the sense of ooh, we felt something today.

Yeah, I think I just bring it up to to run back to you know, how are you feeding yourself as a teacher and a dancer? Like, how are you getting your like, your moments of yes, like breakthrough and I feel better

J.R.: Yeah. I wha- as you're talking, one thing that it reminds me of is, so when I enjoy doing one-on-ones. I don't do many now, but what I love about doing one-on-ones is because I know that the student is actually hungry to learn and improve as a dancer, and so that's the baseline. And obviously the objective is that they wanna get better at dancing.

And how I break that down to them is "Okay, so you're a beginner. You're here to learn how to dance, and you wanna get better. Obviously I can only take you so far with what I know, and obviously we can learn [01:44:00] combination and I can clean you on that combination so that you can look aesthetically good.

But the longer term goal is if you actually wanna get good as a dancer, I need to set you up to love dancing, because when you love dancing, that's gonna be the switch where now you will go train by yourself. You will go out classes, you will dance with people, and because you love it, you'll keep doing it, and then you'll eventually get better.

You're not gonna get better in the one hour with me, for sure." 

Lil B: Mm-hmm. "

J.R.: But how do I set you up mindset-wise? 'Cause I can do a little bit of mindset with you in the next hour so that you can develop a certain level of skill and competency." It c- 'cause you know, like for any artist, there's always that gap between what they see and what they can do, and when they get to the point where it's like, "Oh, I c- actually feel like I'm decent at it," then it, you'll start to love it 'cause you're like, "Oh I feel like I don't suck, and now I love dancing."

Because there's a part of it that's, it is a skill-based sort of thing. Once you get that threshold of "Okay, I think I'm good enough," then it's like fuel on the fire. Then you will keep- Yeah ... going and you'll just keep learning. And so I'm like, "I'm trying to get you there. And so let's try to get [01:45:00] you this mindset of it is okay to not look good.

That's not the point. It's to you know, work on technique and drill that, but also focusing how it makes us feel. And then eventually when you get slightly good enough and you see your progression and that kind of momentum takes off, and when you love it, you'll, you will not need me anymore, and then you will start to grow as a person."

And that, I think, is what your long-term goal is, not necessarily to learn this 4A counts. 

Lil B: Right. I love that. No, that's a great approach 'cause I was doing the same thing when I was doing privates, very similar. But also the way I think I helped prepare people was to like Give them ways to think differently about what's being taught to them.

Like l- we came to locking you know, it's always like from down to up. What if you go from like up to down a lot? 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: It's how does that... So it's more like, "Hmm, there are things I'm learning, but how can I turn it into a game? How can I flip it? How can I play with it differently?" And that was my way of making...

dance has just always been like kind of a game to me, something I can always change the rules and [01:46:00] play them to my liking, and that's why it's like infinitely fun. 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: How can I share that with you? 

J.R.: Yeah. That's what I, that's what I miss about learning freestyle and, you know, learning from people like yourself, is that there's that creativity aspect that is lost a lot in the, especially the cover scene, but in choreography as well, 'cause it's all about looking like someone else and, you know, that's fine, there's an intention there.

But it's that think outside the box that you don't really get because choreography doesn't make you think outside the box, and especially cover dancing does not make you think outside the box. And so there's a lot of dancers who I dance with where it's like there's not an ounce of, "Can you think differently here?"

Like, no, it's- Yeah ... how can I think exactly how I'm supposed to... Like, how am I supposed to get an A in this test? How am I supposed to get 100%? And so now that you're saying that, I'm like, dang, I miss that, man. Where people, there was actual teachers who would be like, "No, do it wrong," which is kind of- Do it wrong

now here's, here's, dude, now here's a weird tangent. So when I take chor- like when we do workshops in my team [01:47:00] and they'll teach us a combination and here's the vibe and here's the performance and here's the whatever, I will do the choreography wrong. Once I learn it, I'll do it wrong on purpose.

And not wrong, but like I'll hit the thing a different way, but I do it because I know I'm intentionally doing it. Like, okay, the combo is to do this move, but I kind of hit it differently. And they're like, "Wait, what did you just..." I'm like, we're not suppo- we don't need to do it. Like, what are the stakes? Am I getting paid to do exactly like you?

I'm just taking a workshop. And so it's, for me, that's I, that's how I find my joy in taking wor- I don't like taking workshops at all, like learning choreography. And so when I have to do it, I just fuck around and do it wrong, but I make sure it looks good. I'm like, all right, well, it's gonna look clean, but it'll also make you laugh.

You're like, "What the, what was that?" I'm like, "I don't know. It's what I wanted to do." Yeah, maybe it's 'cause I'm a freestyler. I don't know. 

Lil B: No, I love that. I do think there's a lot of merit in doing things intentionally wrong. And that is just how I would teach people, too. I'm like, "Do the lock. Now do it incorrectly."

And they're like, "What does that look like?" Like- 

J.R.: Yeah. On my 

Lil B: belly- You, you know, you 

J.R.: [01:48:00] figure 

Lil B: it out ... 

J.R.: that would break so many people's brains that I know of. They'd be like, "Do it wrong? What does that mean?" I'm like, oh, I'm talking to the wrong people, but okay, that's fine. 

Lil B: And also, to be fair and frank you know, if like your K-pop cover people ask me to get an A in that class, it's not happening.

Right. 

J.R.: Of course, of course, yeah. You 

Lil B: know? 

J.R.: Ex- yeah. Yep, yep.

Okay, so social media then and now.

I do wanna jump to when you were talking about your podcast and how it being public therapy, I really wanna know what topics really resonated with people when you were, when you, they approached you and they're like, "Oh, I really like this."

Was there anything comes to mind? 

Lil B: There's one in particular that I remember being especially vulnerable and pretty sad. Oh, I think Kstar, he was my partner in the podcast, but he would-- He was talking about how the OGs would say certain things a lot, and I think we know now it could be, [01:49:00] what the OGs could say could be pretty dismissive.

J.R.: Like in what way? 

Lil B: Like, "That's not locking." 

J.R.: Oh, okay. Okay. 

Lil B: Like, they would say stuff like... You know what I mean? Okay. So, the OGs, they have their stance on certain things, and- 

Let's just say a couple of them were not shy to be vocal about those in very public events and spaces.

J.R.: Mm-hmm.

Lil B: And I remember telling Kstar-- Or he was explaining those things and you have to understand from the OG's point of view that, you know, they didn't grow up with certain things, so when they see it like this, they're just gonna say it like that. And I, I remember just being like, "But when they did those things, they made my friends quit."

They made people I thought were gonna be in this locking journey with me forever literally quit that day. They never stopped. They never stepped into that circle like that ever again. Just from discouragement? So I had lost people. Yeah. You know- Oh, damn ... exactly that. And it felt like it was, like, worse than discouragement.

It was just like [01:50:00] shitting on everything that you're about because you're not- Oh ... you didn't live the life that I live. You don't see it through my lens. I'm like, you-- So you're not helping give that lens to people, and then I'm now without this group that I had. 

You know? So there what sucks is that there's a lot of repercussions that they don't even know about through their actions, the consequences.

J.R.: Yeah. It's like the reverse of what we were talking about before of the positive ripple effects, but now it's the negative ripple effects. 

Lil B: Yeah. And that's something that we talked about a lot on our podcast too. It's like the lessons learned from our OGs that we will do better-

now, you know? Because they weren't primed to be teacher. They weren't primed to be mentors. They were just... When they were doing it, they were just kids learning it. They were also kids in and around Hollywood. There's a different way that you had to carry yourself. They're also some of them were from the streets, some of them were like gangbangers.

There's just so much to them. But they weren't primed in the same [01:51:00] way that we grew up, like being able to go to certain schools and receive certain things and different opportunities, like being with different types of groups of dancers. They-- That just wasn't a part of- What they grew up in.

We're the ones now that who have that experience and that we have to help. And I also started saying this recently, instead of like teaching and mentoring, like translating what that experience really was for people. 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: So this is my experience that I got from them. This is the experience that they shared with me.

How do I translate that to you as an important thing to carry for your future inside of dance or just being a better person? And I think a lot of those were like very impactful in the way that we got to speak on it because yes, I had some time with the OGs, but Kai Star had even more more time with them and got a lot more.

So it's not that he was like in a s- in a state of protecting them or trying to like, you know, you gotta forgive them for this. It was just like, no, I get that, but [01:52:00] my experience was very different, 

J.R.: you know? Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: And I think something that was big too was You know, you met me when I was on the come up and I was still young.

I was still making my name for myself. I saw other people in around my age bracket or my generation in different dance styles really blow up, like household names kind of things. Right. And I didn't... I was like, "Why isn't that happening for me?" I'm kinda having the same course right now, same journey, winning similar things.

And something that people I think don't really realize being inside of a lot of the dance cultures is something like popping and breaking, th- they have higher ceilings than locking- Right ... in terms of success.

Is I guess was what I wanna say. And I was like, "I feel like I'm coming up, but I'm hitting a ceiling." And not [01:53:00] my ceiling, this dance's ceiling for opportunity

And it was a very hard thing to reconcile and to also speak on because I'm like, "This is also why I would go back to school or I would go back to work." 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: Where is there to go from here? Is it really just I have to go overseas and that's where the money is? I love the dance that came from America and I love living in America.

Why isn't the, my art form here highly sought after and valued in the same way like popping and hip hop and choreo is? And those parts can be very demoralizing. It's also you know, when you ask would I still advise people to like, you know, travel? I'm like, yes, but there's also the part of you're also gonna see how great it is on the other side.

If you go to Japan- Mm ... they have locking classes inside their high schools. 

J.R.: Mm. That's crazy. 

Lil B: Right? 

J.R.: But that checks out. 

Lil B: Yeah. [01:54:00] Yeah. And like, could you go to any random high school in America now and find one person who knows what locking is? 

J.R.: Yeah. That's crazy.

Lil B: So I think it was also a part of it where the listeners got to be like, "This is reality. This is a reality I've come to. I'm so glad someone's speaking on it 'cause at least it makes me not feel alone with it." So we-- and then, well, what can we enjoy about it? It's the little events that we get to have and the how we just are able to collaborate as opposed to like when you see popping and everyone's "Oh my God, I wanna learn tutting, I wanna learn hitting, I wanna learn all of this stuff."

And it's like, well, that's, that must be nice. 

J.R.: Yeah. Ah, interesting. 

Lil B: Yeah. It's, it's-- So I hate to really be like, "Oh, like locking is a woe is me," but it's just more of a- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: it's just the way that the cookie crumbled that like it's-- I wish that there were more people in the generation before me or even [01:55:00] of my generation to help really like elevate the so it doesn't- Mm-hmm

feel like there's a stop gap. 

J.R.: Elevate the dance like? Sorry, in what way could you elaborate 

Lil B: on that? I'm not even sure. Let's say if you could-- If you ask any random person to name like, you know, five, five poppers that you like, you might name like a couple from LA, like big names like, like Boogie Frantick or Slim Boogie and then like MT Pop.

It just kinda keeps rolling with the times is what I'm saying. Something like popping. Names get updated, the people that you're following and there's a huge following for a lot of these people. Lockers never really got to receive that kind of Praise? 

J.R.: because- Or relevance?

Do you think it's because the difference in those styles, you think it's because of how the people pushed forward in those earlier years? 

Lil B: I'm not even sure if it's just about like the individual people. It also just might be opportunity to showcase themselves and what we're capable of doing and how we could be utilized.

How can I explain [01:56:00] this? I think even just in sheer numbers, like there is maybe one locking event in the Bay Area per year if I care to throw one. If 

J.R.: I don't, there's- 

Lil B: It's like if I make it, 

J.R.: yeah. 

Lil B: If I make it, there is one. If I don't- Yeah ... there's zero. Whereas just leave it up to the community without even just like throwing something out there, there's pr- gonna be like three to five at these, at this time.

But back when you and I were active, a popping event like every like month or two. 

J.R.: Ah. 

Lil B: And even then, locking was to like maybe every four or five months or once a year still. So it's just also just through sheer numbers that like we were kind of underrepresented. 

J.R.: So I guess what I am getting from it is that locking is generally less popular than these other styles, and that's why there's not a lot of activity. Why do you think that is? I know it's apples and oranges and all this other stuff, but like I wanna get 

Lil B: your 

J.R.: take.

Lil B: I, I think during my early years, so during that timeframe, like [01:57:00] the early 2000s, like maybe late 1900s to two, two, 2000s, like I think there was too much of a, "This is what locking needs to be, and locking needs to be done to this music," and, "No, that's not locking. This is locking." Oh. I think there were too many rules- 

J.R.: Okay.

Okay ... 

Lil B: in place. Whereas if you take popping in a popping event, they can play anything. 

Any music. They're not looking for a specific style of music. They're able to dance to anything. And lockers are the same way, but I think back then it was like, "You shouldn't be locking to that. That's not locking.

That's not locking music." 

J.R.: Hmm. So it was very like is- it was a very like purist, isolationist sort of culture in the earlier days. 

Lil B: Yeah, and I think it really hurt- And 

J.R.: you think that stagnated... 

popping in particular got to grow with the music of the ages.

Lil B: Okay. Especially during a time where like it really needed every soldier to be in line and be in place so that future generations are gonna take to [01:58:00] those people.

Whereas the locking soldiers in that sense were like shot down and "We have nowhere to go."

Am I gonna pass on the things you're passing to me?

The things you're passing to me are garbage. 

It's a very sad truth of a lived experience 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. Dang. I never thought of it that way. I always had thought, again not as a locker and someone who's super deep into like the different styles and stuff, that I always thought it was an aesthetic thing, meaning you... Someone who's not exposed to, doesn't know anything about dance, and then they get exposed to some video or some dancer doing something.

B-boying is very dynamic, and it is very out there. And so I can see the appeal. It's, oh, they're so acrobatic, and they do all the- Mm-hmm ... obviously, I'm talking about the power, flashy stuff, right? And then you have popping, which like, oh, that's so cool. Like animation, it's very, I don't know how to say, aesthetic.

It's very flashy. Whereas locking, and it's not to demean it obviously, 'cause, you know, but it's it's not as flashy as the other two, let's just say in this example, right? It's, you're not doing these double back flips into something. Oh, you [01:59:00] could obviously, but- 

Lil B: Yeah, yeah ... 

J.R.: it's, at, at its core, it's kinda like a difference in frameworks or vocabulary that's more limit...

And so I always thought in my conception of that's the reason why it's not as popular is because if I see a back flip, I wanna do that, but if I see someone point, I'm like, "Okay, that's fine," I guess, as a non-dancer. But I, it's... Thanks for sharing about that 'cause it makes a lot of sense about how the pioneers were gatekeeping and that really stagnated the momentum in the early days, which could have led to more exposure to that, right?

Lil B: Yeah. Now all we have is to hold on to the roots a- as lockers, right? All we have, all we really have now is make sure you remember who Don Campbell is

I think popping has the same thing. Hey, just make sure you remember, you know, the OGs and the pioneers. But look at this whole road and trajectory you've had in the last 30 years of different- Yeah

age groups and people who do different things to different music. They have all that to work with, and then also, this is where it came from. 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: We just have, [02:00:00] "Hey, this is where it came from." And I say that as, and the reason I'm so fired up about that is 'cause Unortholox, we really believe that we, locking can be just as timeless as how popping is perceived.

Mm. It can be just as athletic as breaking is perceived. It can be just as sexy and femme as waacking is received.

But because there were so many of those that, that gatekeeping, it was like we never got to have the people, even from other dance styles to have their spin on what locking could be.

And we're only like three guys, you know, who are like, we can only show so much and be so much. You need all of the community, all of the people, like in the same way like popping has. 

J.R.: Yeah. I- I'm-- Now I'm curious as a thought experiment, if all these styles came up during the social media age of TikToks and whatnot, do you think it would pan out differently?

Let's say we, we brought the styles, the genesis is now in the [02:01:00] TikTok age. Do you think that would make a difference? 

Lil B: I think there's a huge opportunity for it to be I really do think so. 'Cause it... This sucks to say, because even though the pioneers were gatekeeping, they weren't completely wrong about a lot of it.

In, in the way that maybe people understood the dance. If you don't have the context, you don't have the understanding, yes, it's gonna look a little bit awkward, and that awkwardness is not gonna be appealing in the same way where if you just tell someone to animate and you know, it's very easy to tell people, "Be the least human you could be," 'cause that's what popping is, right?

It's so easy to say that, and it clicks, and you'd be like, "Oh just pretend like I move frame by frame." Yeah. Okay. But for locking, it's be a superhuman.

Be someone that breaks barriers. Be someone that breaks rules. Be fast, be delicate, be strong. Be, like, with the wind. It breaks all of these boundaries if you allow yourself to really understand the [02:02:00] context of what it allows you to do.

And the dance part of it too. If you tell anyone who doesn't know what dance is, same thing. Pretend you're an animation project or whatever, right? And then you say, "Now just dance." That person's gonna be like, "Oh my God, just tell me to be not human." 

J.R.: Yeah I love that.

Lil B: This the reason I love locking so much is because I think it really gets to the core of do you feel good when you dance? 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: And what, what... When you say dance, what does that come up for you as? As

cause a lot of people hear that and like, "Oh, I'm not a dancer." I'm like, "No, no one has to be a dancer to dance."

J.R.: Yeah, of course. Yeah. That... Oh my God, that's like the, that's the first question I have to address in all my classes. I'm like, "Guys, you're all dancers." Like, you just have to feel like you're a da- like, you have to, you have to enjoy it. That's it. 

Lil B: There's a... You know, one of my favorite movies is Speed Racer.

Okay. 'Cause it has this... Yeah, there's this quote [02:03:00] that I took from it, because he says something along the lines of, "You don't step into X car to be a racer. You do it because you're driven," or to drive, right? 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: You don't do it to be a driver. You do it because you're driven. Yeah. And I was like, "I don't step on a dance floor to be a dancer.

I step on a dance floor to dance." 

And that was really good for me for a long time, but the problem was I never used the word artist for myself. 

J.R.: Oh, I see. Yeah, 

Lil B: yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that was helpful for me to be like, "I'm gonna break what I think people- think about or feel when they hear the word dance, 'cause it makes them feel like, "Oh, I have to learn something," or, "I have to grow up with it."

I'm like, "No, I didn't really do that. I just had to learn to love myself or learn to love music, learn the way that I love music, and that made me move." The end. 

Right? And then next chapter is, but that's like the book. Yeah, 

J.R.: yeah. It's so simple, right? Yeah. Like people make it [02:04:00] overcomplicated 

Lil B: So I don't know if that part of the social media- 

J.R.: Yeah

Lil B: I do have high hopes for it, but I think it really requires a delicate touch of balancing the feel of it through a video and also- Yeah ... the dynamics of it.

J.R.: Yeah, that's very true.

One thing that you were saying or as you were talking, like especially with popping or animation so when we're learning choreography and one of my, I don't want to say pet peeves, but something that kind of bothers me but now I joke about it, is people will say, "Okay, when you do this pose, you're at a natural angle."

I'm like, "What the f- what the fuck does natural mean?" My natural is I'm doing, I'm tutting, I'm right angles. That's me natural. So I don't know what your natural is, so stop using the word natural. I do popping, so my natural is very weird, trust. So yeah, I totally resonate with that.

Lil B: That's really good. That's something I also thought about while I was doing it for a little bit, but like- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: yes, yes, catering to teachers in the way of like how do you feed yourself, but also like [02:05:00] how are you teaching? What words are you using? Right. Are you using words like, "Oh, it's a natural movement"?

That's a dangerous thing. That doesn't resonate with anybody because I think a lot of people come into dance things, dance classes because they wanna learn what natural means- as a dancer. It's not, it doesn't, that really doesn't click. 

J.R.: Yeah. It doesn't mean a- natural does not mean anything.

Like it's a very relative word. So yeah, precision of language is important, I feel like. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. Also, I don't know, this is a random tangent before we move on, but like, I don't know, the dancers I dance with nowadays, maybe it's just a cover dancing thing, like they don't know how to count, and that's like unheard of.

I'm like, first off, there's only eight numbers. Just learn how to count. Oof. And second, it's if you're teaching da- I get if you're just vibing, that's fine. But if you're like a leader or a teacher or something, like just learn how to count. Like how hard is it? I don't know. I don't know why that's a hot take in some circles, but it kinda is disappointing 'cause that was never a negotiable when I was learning dance.

Yeah. So like, no, you just learn to count. Freestyle or choreography, like you just count. I don't know. 

Lil B: It was, [02:06:00] I have a interesting question for you that my, my partner posed a couple of months ago, and it kinda like took us for a spin. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: And she was like, "If you never learn like an instrument or anything like that or like they took dance classes, how do you know where the one is in music?"

J.R.: Oh. Like as a dancer? 

Lil B: Like just as like now you're learning how to move with music or something. Like- 

J.R.: Oh ... '

Lil B: cause so she was just like, like when I hear music, like if we go to I don't know a club or something, I know where the one is. I know where- Yeah ... the eight is. But the b- but when she was asking like, "Where is the one?"

Like I know where the one is. How do people know where that is? Obviously we know we can sheet music and then we can... We know how to do counts, but like- 

J.R.: Oh, so like how do we identify where that eight count starts? 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Like where the, where the loop begins? 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: That's a good question. That almost feels philosophical, 'cause I feel like I've- Yeah

thought about this too. How do I know where 

Lil B: the one 

J.R.: is? 'Cause again, like, 

Lil B: yeah, we [02:07:00] know it. We know it. Like- 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah ... 

Lil B: just throw us into anything, I'm like, "Oh, I know where, like, I start-" One ... if I wanted to, right? Two, three. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah, okay. 

Lil B: Yeah, exactly. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: But how did we get here? 

J.R.: You know what? That's a great question.

I do not know. I I wanna say it's just from the universe. The universe tells us where the one is. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: But see, if you don't know how to count, then how do you know where the... Well, maybe you don't care where the one is. Exactly. You just do sounds, huh? 

Lil B: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck. 

J.R.: I don't know, man.

Lil B: So, like, make... So like let's, let's say someone comes into your class and they're gonna learn just the choreo for the chorus. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: They don't really need to know where the one is. They just need to know where the chorus starts. 

J.R.: Right. 

Lil B: Maybe that's how it starts of like somebody counts them in, and they're like, "Oh, that makes sense.

One." 

J.R.: Right. But then, but then what if y- before the chorus or after the chorus, you're screwed because the chorus didn't start yet, so then where's the one? 

Lil B: , I don't. I don't know. This one's a 

J.R.: hard one because- It's an actual que- actual question. Maybe I need to, maybe I need to pose this to all the dancers I interview [02:08:00] from now on.

I'm like, "Okay, where's the one? How do you know where the one is?" Yeah. Ah, crap. Okay. I'll add that to my rapid fire. 

Lil B: Yeah, 'cause, yeah. It's like I couldn't ever identify how I learned this. 

J.R.: Yeah, that's true. That's true. I don't. 

Lil B: It's, it's so ingrained in us now- Yeah ... and no one had to, like, teach us. But I have been through classes, like- Yeah

Shasia's hip hop class, which I've, you know, I still stop in now and then. There are really people who can't count, don't know how to count. They don't... And also don't know how to step on beat. It's very like, "Whoa, what's happening here?" 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Lil B: So something that comes so, again, naturally to us. 

J.R.: Yeah. Oh, it's natural, guys.

Count to one. Yeah. What? What is... What, what... Just one and then eight. What? It's natural. I don't know, man. We're using the word natural now and no one knows what it means. 

Lil B: Yeah. Is this just, like, just dancer or musically coded that we get this? Or I, I don't know. 

J.R.: Yeah. Okay. I'll, I'll get back to you on that in, like, 20 years maybe when [02:09:00] I-

The, the meaning of life and also how do we find one.

All right. We're at two hours and 21 minutes. We had a few other questions, but I wanted to kind of... Unless you had any other thoughts you wanna touch on, I would like to go to rapid fire if you're cool with it. 

Lil B: Yeah, let's go into rapid fire.

J.R.: Okay. Cool. Yeah, I don't wanna... If you had something burning you wanted to ask.

I'll ask them quickly, but you can take as long as you need. You don't need to be fast or anything. But billboard question, if you could put up a sign for millions of people to see, what would it say?

Lil B: Th- this is kind of funny because I've been-- I'm turning 40 this year.

So a lot of my thought process has been like, you know, RIP my 30s. So it might be something along those lines.

Yeah, COVID killed a lot of my 30s. 

J.R.: So your sign would just be like, "RIP my 30s"? 

Lil B: Something like that, yeah. 

J.R.: Nice.

Just spreading the misery around. I like it. 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Cool. All right, next one. What is one of the hardest challenges you faced in your life, and what did you learn from it?

Lil B: I think we did touch upon it of a [02:10:00] lot of dance failures, but I would say like one of the big ones that's I think is easy to share was like doing So You Think You Can Dance, it's like season 12, I believe. I was 29, so that- Mm ... that meant like that was my last year to try. That was my first year I tried and it was the last year I was gonna be able to, 'cause once you're 30, again, see, it's like RIP 30s.

J.R.: Wait, was that, is that a hard, a hard requirement, like you can't be over 30? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. 

Lil B: At least it was back then, yeah. 

J.R.: Dang, ageist, man. 

Lil B: Yeah. They just want that young talent. But they get it though, so like- 

J.R.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's 

Lil B: plenty. I, I think, yeah. I had a really good first day in the second audition.

Like I got highlighted a bit on, on TV. Like I got to have Paulo Dual wear my locking hat and stuff. It was really cool. Oh, that's 

J.R.: cool. Yeah. 

Lil B: Yeah, it was a really good moment. And then I just dropped out in Vegas because I [02:11:00] couldn't do the choreo or I couldn't remember it. They even said "We'll let you try it one more time just by yourself."

Yeah. And I remember I got eight counts in, I'm like, "I'm just gonna lock now." 

J.R.: Oh, shit. 

Lil B: They, they didn't put that on TV, but I was just like- Yeah, yeah ... "I give up. I'm just gonna lock hella hard." 

J.R.: Oh my God. 

Lil B: Everyone was watching. It was like one of the last groups. But I, that was a little bit like hard for me 'cause it's like one of those things you always kinda hold onto the hope, like I'll, I will...

If I'm gonna break through, maybe this is it. Maybe this is geared towards people like me. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: And so it was just very at the time very discouraging. But then a couple of months later is when I won WDC in Japan. I was like, "I'm confused about dance life." 

J.R.: You're like, "Am I good or do I suck? I don't know."

Lil B: Yeah. I don't really, I don't know. 

J.R.: Yeah. Sorry, did you have a l- what did you learn from it or was it more just a general reflection? 

Lil B: I think it's more a general reflection. Like it was just more like that was me putting my life in the hands of someone [02:12:00] else's definition. I like that. Right? So I think sometimes you wanna define for yourself what it means to be, like, successful in that sense instead of using somebody else's.

And that's hard to do in this day and age, right? You see someone who has something you want but you don't have, and it's like those are jealous feelings or inadequacy. And it's like, well, that's not my life. So I think that was probably the big lesson I learned for myself then

J.R.: Mm-hmm. Sorry, quick tangent. What style of that choreography was it? What was the- Just hip hop ... that you couldn't get the... Okay, okay. I was like, man, it was like contemporary jazz or what was going on here? No. Okay. 

Lil B: It was definitely in my wheelhouse. 

J.R.: Okay, okay, okay. 

Lil B: I was doing it fine until I was on stage, and I was like the- 

J.R.: Ah.

Lil B: Man, if you ever really wanna practice for something like that, when you're learning- Yeah ... choreo and you're practicing it, just have the brightest lights shine in your face. That's all you can see, and I think that is gonna be the most helpful thing for any dancer. 

J.R.: Oh, I see. To [02:13:00] train for an audition like that?

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: Oh, I see. 

Lil B: So you don't get It is weird 'cause I'm not the type of person to get stage fright, but then I was like, "Wow." Yeah. "I guess I am in these kind of situations." So it's always something to train. 

J.R.: Of course, of course.

Next one. Self-inflicted wound. Do you have a story about something that's gone wrong in your life, and you can't blame anyone else 'cause you did it to yourself?

Lil B: Yeah. This is where I wish that I had learned about polyamory earlier in my life, ' cause I thought that something was inherently wrong with me, or I took on from my dad that I could love multiple people and want multiple relationships. And so I had hurt people because of me not understanding that and me just really just being a cheater.

And that, that really hurt in like my, my early 20s, and I wish I'd learned about, yeah, . 'Cause now I know that about, that about myself, that I'm capable of loving multiple people And [02:14:00] where- whereas back then, yeah I hurt the people that I loved and cherished, and I hurt them very deeply. And I know that I did that to myself and then to them.

J.R.: Okay. It's because, so because you didn't know of it as a concept and you didn't have the self-awareness, that if you did, you feel like you wouldn't have hurt people? 

Lil B: At least, yeah. I, at least not in the way that- Hmm ... we end up hurting just through the traditional means of how we conceptually learn and understand relationships, I hurt people in that sense.

Hmm. And I didn't know that there was something that I could learn about myself, that I could have navigated it differently, to at least explain my f- my feelings and my emotions. 

J.R.: Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, thanks for sharing.

Next thing, if you could redo one thing, what would you do differently?

Lil B: I feel like it, it-- my immediate thought goes to different trajectories in my life. Like maybe if I was, like, in school maybe [02:15:00] taking on something different. Like I, I took international business, not helpful in the slightest so far.

I really wish that I had learned something like cooking. Like something like that where I'm like, it's a skill that will always be useful to me and the people around me- 

J.R.: Oh ... 

Lil B: regardless of if I'm hired for something or I have a job like that. 

J.R.: So not cooking, but not in a professional sense, just as a skill? 

Lil B: Yeah. Because in that way I, I could use it as a profession, but it's- Oh ... also a skill that I get to like use year-round, where like- I see ... international business, if I'm not in the office, it is useless. 

J.R.: Oh, I see. So something has, that has a better ROI in a lifetime value skill set. 

Lil B: Yeah.

J.R.: Okay, next one. If you could give your younger self advice, what would it be? Or best words of wisdom that has impacted you?

Lil B: I think I would really tell myself that it is okay to be vulnerable and to be open and really let people know how you're [02:16:00] feeling. I got to mask a lot of it through dance, and even when I got close to people to let them know, I wasn't sure if that was okay- for a long time. And I think I would just let my younger self know just be open and honest.

There's nothing you need to hold back about how you're feeling and that people actually care how you're feeling. They want to know. They don't wanna just hear, "I'm doing all right."

J.R.: Yeah. I love that. I talked about this in a previous episode, but I read this book recently called I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Real. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's about male-centered uh, depression. There's a specific type of depression, it's called s- it's like a subtle, softer s- it's not like a hardcore depression, but it's more like a...

There's a term for it, I'm forgetting. But anyways, the biggest takeaway for me was that boys socialized into men in our society, were socialized that our self-worth is based on our achievements and the value that we bring to each other. And because, like you're saying we're not [02:17:00] really encouraged to share our feelings 'cause that vulnerability is discouraged, and then what do we do? Because we're, our self-worth is in our achieve- in our achievements and what we provide for other people rather than being connected or having that community or being able to be vulnerable. 'Cause if we're vulnerable, we're seen as weaker, and therefore you have all this epidemic of the the subtler depression or loneliness because men aren't able to connect and share their feelings and how they're feeling.

And it was really insightful because I'm like, oh, well, I mean, I obviously relate to this and I f- my personal experience, that checks out. And so I've been trying to be more intentional with opening up or connecting with people because the people who care about us do want us, like you said, to hear about it and be there for us.

But when we grow up, it's not really part of the culture of men doing that or boys doing that. It's "You know, you don't, you're not weak. You don't share emotions or feelings. You just man up and just do the thing." It's okay, well, obviously that's gonna lead to a lot of toxic behaviors in the future, like toxic masculinity, but that's probably just covering up all the things that we're not able to release in a healthy way, right?[02:18:00] 

Lil B: Yeah. And on the the other side of that too, of being the person listening I, I had to learn that sometimes I would just end up wanting to be the fixer of the issue. Mm-hmm, 

J.R.: mm-hmm. You know 

Lil B: what I mean? Of course. And that's because, again, like you said, we don't have enough practice just being, like, open about it, where you might realize if you're in that position more I just want you to hear about it.

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: I just need to get it off my chest and share it instead of finding a solution. And yeah, so there's a lot of lessons to learn being in that seat and again, that's why I wish for AOV, I wish we had done more of that instead of just "How are we gonna get these guys next time?"

J.R.: Yeah, for sure. I totally agree.

In the last few years, what new belief, behavior, or habit has improved your life? 

Lil B: It'd probably have to be, like, my therapy. I've not missed a session in five years. It's been that important to me. And it's also not just my individual one, I also do couples one with my partner just because we find it very helpful and [02:19:00] healthy for us. And I think in doing that, it helps us practice being able to communicate better and more openly, and schedule.

Mm. 

J.R.: Like, 

Lil B: that's probably the big things that really help me stay grounded. 

J.R.: How do you define success? I know we kinda talked about this a little bit. 

Lil B: Yeah, we did. It's interesting because I think I'm in a place now where I'm still defining that for myself. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm.

Lil B: I, I've been working at my current job now for a year, but prior to that, I was looking for work for almost two years. Right. Like, I was out of a job, and I wasn't even doing dance things. I was just really looking for work. And the reason it was becoming so important in what success was is because my partner and I wanted to really take, you know, our relationship to the next stage and start preparing for marriage and kids, and that felt like if I'm not successful in terms of income, how is this even gonna be a reality?

J.R.: Right. 

Lil B: Right. And even though I have the job now, it still feels like how is [02:20:00] this even gonna be reality? It's so expensive to live here. 

J.R.: Right. But,

Lil B: Yeah, that's 

J.R.: true ... 

Lil B: I think when it comes to success, it's really you or my- for myself and my partner to define what that means for us so that we're not shooting ourselves in the leg feeling like we're failures if we don't hit something, you know?

We got engaged in November, and even just recently we were like, "Maybe we pause on the planning for the wedding because this is, income-wise, it's stressing us out more than anything, and it's taking away from our enjoyment of the relationship." So- maybe we just... Our success is to be able to just live in that for a while while we build up, and the next success will be when we're able to take the actually take the next steps income-wise for the next steps.

So I think it's important that you just define where you are at currently in your life. It's good to have a short term and a long term, you know? So, like- Mm ... right now we're focusing on the short term, knowing what the long term is. 

J.R.: What's something you've been pondering recently or think about often [02:21:00] deeply, if anything that we haven't touched on?

Lil B: This might... Okay, 'cause I know you're gonna ask the hot take one. This probably goes in tandem with that. 

J.R.: Okay. 

Lil B: Also don't know if this is gonna be okay to say. 

J.R.: We can retrospect on it- Yeah ... if we wanna cut it out. 

Lil B: But so it's only because Fanime's happening this weekend, and it, for some reason this timeline or this, it always brings this up. Yeah. But where were all these cool Black people liking anime when I was in high school? Like, why now? Yeah. Why was I the one being shit on in high school as being the Asian nerd- Yeah

into anime, and now you have a Dragon Ball Z tattoo.

That's not nice. 

J.R.: You're like, "What? Guys, come on. Couldn't you have done this, like, 20 years earlier or something?" 

Lil B: Yeah. Come on. Like, it wasn't cool when I was into it, but it's really- Yeah ... cool now? Like- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: come on. Like, is it just because [02:22:00] now it's up through social media people can show that they're like- this is my life.

And I'm like, "This has been my life, yo." Like- This 

J.R.: guy, yo, bro, come join the party, man. We've been here for a while. 

Lil B: Yeah. I didn't have to, I wasn't trying to show anything else. I was like, I have to be proud of this. It's all I have. But where you're like, no, hip hop, basketball.

You know?

Making me feel like lesser of myself and my friends. 

J.R.: Oh, that's, yeah, that's true. I like that. That's a good, that's a good take. I feel like, so on social media, there are all these really big influencers, celebrity people who are, like, really notably big into anime, and just based on the timeline, it's I know you guys were- into anime when we were into it in high school.

It's just now you're out because- Yeah ... you're famous. And so I'm like you like Dragon Ball, but when we liked Dragon Ball. And maybe it's, maybe now that those people are now out and other people are, "Oh, we also liked it," I'm like, "Okay. Well, thanks guys. We were so alone-" Yeah ... "when we were growing up or whatever."

Lil B: Yeah, yeah. It's that, it's that [02:23:00] feeling. I know, I know it's a little bit more like, like- 

J.R.: Sure, sure. Like a little petty or 

Lil B: whatever. I get 

J.R.: it. Yeah. 

Lil B: But yeah, it just really feels like I had to live that life. Like why couldn't- Sure ... it be cool back then? But I also wonder if it's still how that is now in like high school.

You know, that was just very defining for me. And to see it- Yeah ... like kind of retconned, I'm just like, "No, come on." 

J.R.: Yeah. No, yeah, for... That's a great way to put it. I feel the same way about K-pop. When I was really big into K-pop in college and a little before, now it's like super mainstream. I'm like, okay, first of all, when I did K-pop dancing, y'all were like, "Ugh, what is this?"

Okay. And even the Koreans were like, "We don't listen to K-pop." Yeah. And like now you've, now you've like- Now it's- ... got your identity. 

Lil B: I do. I hella feel you. 'Cause I was listening to K-pop when I was like 14, 15, and there were like- Yeah ... like five or six like really hot groups. Mm-hmm. And then, and then I s- I stopped, and all of a sudden it came back in the masses.

And I was like- Mm-hmm ... "No." Yeah. 

J.R.: No, that was my thing, 'cause yeah, same. Like when I was like I guess when y- in your [02:24:00] high school days, and then like I would listen to... My sister was also like, we listened to like Rain, BoA, TVXQ- Mm-hmm ... like back then, right? 

Lil B: Yes. 

J.R.: Shinhwa, H.O.T When they were just coming out.

Shinhwa, H.O.T., exactly. Yeah. And then, you know, then it kind of had this golden era in my, in that sort of 2008 to 2015-ish sort of- Mm-hmm ... range. And then now it's like BTS and all this other stuff. But yeah it always felt like... It was also just very weird that I'm like, I would meet... Most of my friends in college were Korean, and I'm like, "Why do none of you guys like K-pop? This is kind of weird. Like, why is our K-pop club all non-Koreans?" And all the Koreans are like- ... "No, we're too cool for that." I'm like, "Guys, this is your culture. I'm not being racist. This is literally your culture." 

Lil B: No, that's... I... Thank you. I say the same thing. I'm like, "I'm not being racist. I really just like, I wanna understand.

Like, this is your place. I, I'm the visitor." 

J.R.: Exactly. Oh, man, that's funny. Yeah, thank you for that. That'll be immortalized. I hope, I hope you're okay with keeping that, 'cause I'm fine with keeping it. [02:25:00] 

Lil B: Okay, if you're fine, then I'm fine. 

J.R.: If you're not, then just let me know before it goes live. But yeah, I think it's fine.

No, it's, we're 

Lil B: good. 

J.R.: Okay, okay, cool, cool, cool. Okay let's see. I think only a couple more left.

What is one of the best or most worthwhile investments you've ever made in either time, money, energy, or et cetera? 

Lil B: I already did touch upon it, but I really do think it was putting a lot of my funds and time into traveling.

However much I spent, like I could've spent more and it still would've been worth it. And not to say that like I didn't like where I was and my home, but I just got so much perspective and connections through traveling. And again, like I, I think because like us as dancers, and if you're learning some sort of art form, like I think it just befits you to go to see other cultures that are in the same atmosphere as you and see how their culture goes about it and how it affects you.

Yeah, the world's too big sometimes, you know?

J.R.: I like it. I mean, I'm a big proponent of that. Traveling just as the ROI [02:26:00] of getting a perspective change, of being exposed to different people and different cultures, that's something that really does elevate your life a lot, and you wouldn't think it does just because you go somewhere else, but it really does.

So I, I appreciate that. 

Lil B: Yeah 

J.R.: Okay. Let me maybe this last one. Any favorite books, movies, videos, articles, media, or media that you share or recommend the most?

Lil B: This is kind of interesting 'cause I think recently a friend had asked like if someone were to play like five different video games to get to know you, you know, what would those be? Hmm. Right? And I think I have had mine. Yeah it'd be like Chrono Trigger Mario RPG. These are all like Super Nintendo games.

J.R.: Hmm. 

Lil B: EarthBound. I'll just go with those three. Like EarthBound- Okay ... Chrono Trigger, and like FF, you know, Super Mario RPG.

And I think that's just because you know, there's like the subreddit now, like main character syndrome and whatever- Right ... where I'm the main character. I think those gave me like a healthy version of that. Of I am going [02:27:00] to be a centerpiece to save the world, but I'm not doing it for like the glory.

I'm doing it because maybe that's what I'm meant to do. Mm. I don't know. I, like even my name came from EarthBound, but it's not in the game. It just- 

J.R.: Yeah ... 

Lil B: it kinda spawned from that

Yeah, I'd probably stick with those. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. Nice. I like that. That was interesting rec. I haven't gotten that before, like video games as, you know, to get to know you. 

Lil B: Yeah. I think they're very defining. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, for sure. I saw a post like that recently where it was like... It was like a list of let's say 12 or 15 games that was in our era, and like top three that define who you are or something like that.

Mm-hmm. And it was like an Instagram sort of story, and I was like, "Oh, this is very interesting," because I'm like, "Dang, these games take me back a lot," and I'm sure they were very formative to me, too.

Okay. I think that is it for rapid fire. You made it to the end. Now we have our ending portion.

So we always end with gratitude. Shout out to my mom. So Lil B, what are you grateful for? 

Lil B: Oh, man. I'm very grateful for my partner, who's also [02:28:00] probably waiting for me. Yeah. My mom, too, and to my, my dance communities, like my circles. Recently actually DS Players, we... We're, like, doing a performance next weekend, so we've been, like, practicing- Oh, wow and training for two months or something. 

J.R.: Dang. 

Lil B: Yeah. We haven't touched-- We haven't done anything together in a decade at least. 

J.R.: I was about to ask, like, when's the last time? Yeah. Dang. 

Lil B: Yeah. That's 

J.R.: crazy. 

Lil B: At least a decade. So it's actually been pretty cool to put something together and work on it, and it's just like old times.

J.R.: Mm. I love 

Lil B: that. I'm very grateful for them recently. This has been... They've been such a joy. It's been really great. 

J.R.: Do you have any final ask from the audience or any final takeaways you'd like them to have from this conversation?

Lil B: I feel like recently I've been such a advocator for people to get into the arts and no no matter what that means to you, right? It could be making music or DJing or I got into gloving recently in the last couple [02:29:00] years. It could be dance, could be, like, drawing. I think just anything that lets you express yourself without words.

Something I, I-- Oh, this is something I wanted to touch upon too from like my 2010s time, like during the After the We Live stuff was, I kept asking myself for a long time what would life be like if we didn't have language? If we didn't have words? Because I was trying to stop my brain from activating when I was dancing.

So I would tell myself you know, like I would scratch myself here so I could turn off my brain and just feel. 

J.R.: Mm. 

Lil B: And when I was able to do that, that's when I felt like I was able to actually understand what prayer meant 'cause, like, when I was a kid, prayer was like, praying to God was the same thing as praying to Santa Claus.

J.R.: I'm 

Lil B: asking for the same things very similarly. Yeah. And I was like... But then, you know, I turn off my brain, I'm like, "I'm not using language anymore. I'm using the feel of my soul and my heart." And I [02:30:00] feel like I wouldn't have gotten to that place if it really wasn't for art in some way. It could even just be, like, loving music and collecting music or something like that. I think it's such a huge component for what makes us human initially, and then language is the thing that helps bridge that.

You know what I mean? I don't think it should be the other way around. I don't think language helps you get into the arts. I think it should be like the feel that you have gets you into the art, and then you use language to be able to connect with others to share and conceptualize.

J.R.: To translate the nuance. 

Lil B: Right. But the very root of it is how you feel when you're doing the thing. 

J.R.: I love that. That's, that's very beautiful. I mean, I think a lot of us artists would-- or are proponents of the same thing, get into some sort of art, but I think you were very eloquent in conveying that 'cause that makes a lot of sense.

Lil B: Mm-hmm. Thank you. I like that. Yeah. I especially getting into gloving [02:31:00] recently, and I also used to work in a 3D VR art design thing. A lot of people just may not have found what their thing is yet. That's why I'm such a huge... I love doing gloving, and I'm hoping it could be the next generation's in their hands literally.

Because maybe a lot of these kids just don't know that giving light shows is so- is like their calling. They don't really know, but how are they ever gonna know if it's, if they don't come across it? So I'm like- 

J.R.: Mm 

Lil B: Yeah. 

J.R.: I like that. So you can, you can find meaning in a lot of things, but you have to be exposed and just try different things, 'cause you never know, that could be your purpose.

Okay, very last question. I'll link your Instagram, your social media, but if people want to find you check out what you're up to, where can they find you?

Lil B: Oh it's just @lockinglittleb on Instagram. That's probably where I'm the most active, but since I've been working, I've been kind of like not doing- Yeah ... anything like that. But I'd like to start to again. [02:32:00] 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Lil B: Drawing inspiration- Cool ... from like people like Donna, who's been posting a lot of videos and stuff recently. So I'd like to do that again 

J.R.: Nice. I like it. Yeah, man, you need to throw the one locking event that, that's gonna happen, so 

Lil B: I know. They've been so good, dude. It's crazy. Like lots of emotions. Very, very- Oh, I bet ... oh

J.R.: Well, we'll send them there, so if you guys are interested, check them out on Instagram. All right, let me wrap this up. We're almost, we're getting close to three hours.

I will say before I sign off, before I stop the recording, thank you, Lil B, so much for the time and your insights and your story and everything.

I really appreciate it. It was such a joy for me to reconnect with you, get your perspective. And man, I don't know, man, this was, I feel like this was such a strong sales pitch to, to get into locking. I've always loved locking. I've never been good at it. I enjoy it. I enjoy the four pieces of vocabulary I know.

But I don't know, it just feels, we're, talking to you about, you know, [02:33:00] about what locking means to you and how you've been translating that to the world is very inspiring to me because it reminds me of the days when I was learning how to freestyle back in high school. And so hopefully this will inspire other people as well.

And again I really appreciate you because you were definitely one of my dance inspirations growing up, and so your ripple effect on me has been very positive, so I just wanted to give you your flowers for that.

I'll do my sign-off. So thank you guys for being here.

I really appreciate it. Be sure to like, follow, subscribe, all that cool stuff. Leave us five stars in whatever platform you're listening to. Leave Lil B love in the comments as well. He'll see it. And a reminder to always be kind to other people, especially yourself, and remember that you can always learn something from someone if you take the time to listen.

So thank you guys for being here.