Why Did I Become A Doctor South Africa
Why Did I Become A Doctor - Real Stories from Professionals Who Chose Their Path
Honest conversations about career, calling, and life choices. Unfiltered journeys of doctors, dentists, nurses, engineers, accountants, and professionals across South Africa and beyond.
In-depth interviews exploring professional pressures, burnout, career pivots, mental health, and the moments that made people question their calling.
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Why Did I Become A Doctor South Africa
The Dentist Who Never Wanted to Be One: Dr. Alasdair McKelvie's Remarkable Journey
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This is a conversation I never expected to have such emotional weight.
Dr. Alasdair McKelvie has been the voice of reason for thousands of South African dentists facing their most difficult professional moments. As Head of Dental Services, South Africa at Dental Protection, he's the person practitioners call when everything goes wrong.
But Alasdair's journey to this role was far from planned. Originally wanting to be a pilot, then failing to get into medical school, he reluctantly entered dentistry - and discovered both his passion and his calling.
In this deeply personal interview, recorded at the SADA Congress in Durban during his final visit to South Africa in his professional capacity, Alasdair shares:
- How a single malpractice case transformed his approach to dentistry
- What it's really like being the person dentists call in crisis
- The profound differences between litigation in the UK vs South Africa
- 23 years of clinical wisdom and 16 years of member protection
- Why healthcare professionals need other healthcare professionals in their corner
This conversation captures the end of an era. When Alasdair finished speaking at the congress, hundreds of dentists rose in a spontaneous standing ovation - a fitting tribute to someone who accidentally became a dentist, deliberately became excellent at it, and ultimately found his true calling in protecting others who chose the same path.
For healthcare professionals navigating their own challenging moments, this is both inspiration and practical wisdom from someone who's seen it all.
🎙️ Why Did I Become A Doctor shares honest, unscripted conversations with doctors, dentists, healthcare professionals, and other inspiring individuals who are shaping the future of healthcare and beyond.
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Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to share something a bit different with you. This is the first time I'm recording a personal introduction to an episode and there's a reason for that. The interview you're about to hear is with Dr. Alistair Bakelve. He's a man who's become something of a legend in South African dentistry despite being Scottish. For over a decade Alistair's been the person dentist in South Africa core when they're in trouble as uh head of dental services South Africa and I think Africa at dental protection he's helped thousands of uh practitioners navigate their most uh difficult professional moments. What makes this uh conversation unique is the timing. This interview was uh recorded at the recent Sada Congress uh during what turned out to be Alistair's final visit to South Africa in his professional capacity. Uh after sixteen years at MPS, uh he was facing the end of a career that had taken him from his original plans. Um during uh our main plenary at that Congress I found myself making a bit of an impromptu speech because uh I'd realized that uh this was probably the last time I'd share a stage with Alistair and I I couldn't let the moment pass without acknowledging what he meant to our profession. But um after we both spoke, something quite cool happened. Um you know, hundreds of dentists and attendees uh rose to their feet in spontaneous standing ovation. Uh I thought it was a moment that perfectly captured um you know what Alistair meant to South African dentistry. Now I've known Alistair for a while and I've um been working with him for five years, which is the the longest I've worked anywhere. Um you know, we've worked together, we've uh disagreed loudly enough to require management intervention. You'll hear about that in the conversation, and and we've become genuine friends, I believe. Uh so to me this isn't just a professional interview. Um it's a conversation between colleagues about an unexpected career journey from a reluctant dental student who never wanted to be a dentist to someone who found his calling in helping others um navigate the the profession's challenges and um you know, being the person that people call in their worst moments. So you'll hear about uh his path from Scotland to England to South Africa, his twenty-three years in clinical practice and how a single alleged malpractice uh case changed his perspective on record keeping forever. Now, if you know Alistair, you won't be surprised that uh he shared his story with uh characteristic candor, you know, the kind of honest reflections that come when a career takes a bit of an unexpected turn. You know, some of those insights, while perfectly valid, um I felt needed to stay between colleagues, you know, for my own professional reasons. If you know, you know. Um and I must just say to Alistair that I'm I'm still I'm grateful that he understood my position and and still trusted me to share his remarkable journey with you. A few days after the interview was recorded, Alistair worked his final day at MPS, and I wrote later that the banter between us was relentless, um, the mentorship invaluable, and that we were losing an irreplaceable voice in healthcare. And that is exactly what happened. So here's Dr. Alistair McKelvey, a man who accidentally became a dentist, deliberately became excellent at it, and ultimately uh found his true calling in protecting others. This is our final conversation as colleagues. Hope you enjoy.
SPEAKER_02Welcome back everyone. Um it's a conversation I'm really looking forward to. I've mentioned this in previous episodes. Um when you're close to someone you don't ever have these overarching deep conversations with them for some strange reason. We don't go all the way back. And um Alistair McKelvey, Dr. Alistair McKelvey is our next guest. If you're a dentist watching the show, uh he needs no introduction. He's one of the uh legends in South African dental industry, yak. You you're nodding for the for the listeners. Um but Alistair McKelvey is the guy people go to or dentists go to when they're when they're facing difficulties in South Africa. Um that's the intro for the non-dentists out there. Alistair, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show.
SPEAKER_03Um how are you doing, man? I'm doing fine. Um pleasure to be sent here by both you guys. Uh I know you both, so I'm looking forward to uh the next hour or so in the chats to where we go.
SPEAKER_02So y you would have picked up his accent. Uh he's not from South Africa, right? But he's an honorary South African.
SPEAKER_03I've got the badge on, okay. So that makes me an honorary South African. But yeah, I I'm Scottish. Yeah. Okay. Um born in Scotland, grew up in Scotland, educated in Scotland, and that's when I left Scotland as soon as I qualified as a dentist, and really without a plan, ended up in England. Okay. And for one reason or another I've stayed there and my home is just outside Leeds in Menston.
SPEAKER_02And but take us all the way back, Alistair. So what what what growing up, what was it like?
SPEAKER_03Um so I I was born in 1961, okay. So that gives you an idea of how old I am. Okay. Um I grew up um in a very secure family. My my dad was a urologist, and you know, we took the Mickey out of him by calling him the human plumber. But that was mainly what what he did. Um my mum was uh a physiotherapist and they'd both met when they were training at Glasgow University. Uh, and we'd moved to Bridge of Allen, which is a small village just beside Stirling, where my father worked. He worked in Stirling Royal Infirmary. Uh, and that's where I was born. I was born on the campus of Stirling University in um in in the maternity hospital. Uh and brought up in Bridge of Allen. Aaron Ross Powell So I didn't know this.
SPEAKER_01So you got up you come from a family of healthcare professionals and acad and and academics as well.
SPEAKER_03I mean you were born in that environment and you Do you know the uh I mean my f from what I could see, my father was very much a worker. I mean he went to theatre every single day. Um he had a huge um an enormous list of outpatient consultations every day as well. Um he did his private work after he'd done his NHS work, so um rarely saw him because he was working um all hours, and if he wasn't working all hours, he was out playing golf with his buddies. Okay.
SPEAKER_02And um so what are you the black sheep of the family that you just became the dentist, or how did the how did that happen? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I mean listen, I I mean one of the things that I'm eternally grateful to my parents for was funding a private education for me and my two sisters. I I'm the middle one, so I've got an older sister and a younger sister. And my parents always said to us is that they don't expect to inherit anything because your inheritance we're using now to pay for your education. So uh we were very fortunate that we went to a great school um not far away called Dollar Academy. And uh it turned out that I had the best grades of the three, but um it it the the journey to dental school wasn't uh qu as quite st as straightforward as it might look.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well how how did you just I mean because I always when I speak to dentists, right, and I said it's maybe it irritates them, but I say who in their right mind, when they're growing up, says, when I when I get old, I want to be a dentist? W was that your thing for me?
SPEAKER_03No. It it wasn't at all. I'm I mean coming from a medical family, I think there was a bit of pressure on on number one son to follow in father's footsteps and go to medical school. Uh when I in the summer holidays, f from a reasonably early age, I used to pick up jobs in the in the Sterling Royal Infirmary. And one of my roles for two or three years over the summer holidays was as an operating department assistant. And I used to work with the anethetist bringing patients from the ward, taking them into the anesthetic room, putting them to sleep, putting them out on the operating table and recovering them on the way back. So uh it not that I learned an awful lot, but I had an interest in anesthetics and anesthesia. And uh at the time my uncle also worked um in the hospital as an anaethetist, and he had a big influence on my ambitions and what I wanted to do. So I wanted to do medicine and specialise in anaesthetics. That was the plan. I i if I had I mean that wasn't really the plan for me, because at that time I I wanted to be a pilot, but there just wasn't the opportunities to to go into aviation, into civil aviation, other than join the the Air Force and train as a pilot in the Air Force, and then once you've done your your service, you got an opportunity to go into commercial aviation. It's completely different now because my local airline jet two uh are are are now paying to train pilots um and they're giving anybody the opportunity. So it's a completely changed playground. But that's what I wanted to do at the time, but uh there weren't the opportunities, so it was um get your education, get get get whatever uh results that you needed to get into medicine, and and that was the plan. And I in in Scotland at that time you you can have two bites at sitting your exams, your final exams when you're leaving school. So in our fifth year, we did what's known as hires and and I messed those up because it was just too busy playing rugby and sport and I didn't really um get stuck into the work. And then so I I I did a sixth year at school, um, redid a lot of those and didn't do any better. So I I I I'd applied to do medicine and I had conditional offers for a number of universities and and medical schools, but I didn't get anywhere near the grades, so um I the the opportunity was lost despite all the all the levers my dad was trying to pull at the time. I didn't get into medicine.
SPEAKER_02Okay. You mentioned sport. I mean, I I've heard that you're a bit of a almost a professional golfer. Was that like a big thing?
SPEAKER_03It w it it was a big thing for me because um I I picked up a club very early um in in my life, um, probably swinging a golf club at the age of ten. And it wasn't really until I was about fifteen or sixteen that I actually became quite good at it. And you there's a sort of eureka moment when you learn to play golf where you can hit the ball hundreds of times in the round of a golf, in a round of golf. But there was a the it w there was a re eureka moment where I shot a magnificent round of golf and I started hitting it properly, and I thought, yeah, I'm quite enjoying this. There's something really nice. If you're not if you're a non-golfer, you don't get it. If you're a golfer, there there's something incredibly satisfying about hitting the ball out the middle of the golf club the correct distance and in the right direction.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Ross Powell So you must have heard this in your in your life. But there's a joke that says, what do you call a a doctor who didn't go to medical school, right? You know it. You know, go on, but I think I know what the answer is. Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's a dentist, right?
SPEAKER_03So coming back to answer coming back to answer your question. So so there I am towards the end of August in 1979, not having a clue what I'm going to be doing next. Um and what I'm wanting to play golf because I've been playing, I'd played Boys International Golf, um, I was playing for the local county, I was getting better, and I was quite enjoying the idea of getting even better uh with some coaching. So I'm quite happy thinking about having a year out, but mm my dad wasn't, and he said, Look, if you want any more support with your education from me, you've got to find a place doing something else other than medicine. And we kind of had that discussion, well, what what what do you think I should do? And I and you know, I I didn't find I didn't think I was bright enough to work my way uh through law school uh and and my English wasn't as probably as good as it needed to be. And uh and and and that sort of side of my brain, w what that sort of reasoning and analysis, what didn't seem to be there. So my dad said to me that I mean you he said, you know, uh John Short who comes to the house regularly when we have parties, well he's a dentist and he makes far more money than than I than I do. So I thought, oh, that sounds like a good thing to do. And sorry, as your your dad said this, yeah. The dentist maybe than the urologist. He he says, right, um you know, what what do you want to achieve? I said, Well, I'd still like to go into a profession that I can make a decent living from. And he gave one of his friends as an example. And uh I applied to a number of dental schools, got into Dundee dental school at the end of September, not really wanting to be a dentist. And actually, uh not n never been a particularly comfortable patient at the dentist either. Uh but there I was um enrolling into a five-year course in in in dentistry. Aaron Powell Had you ever like shadowed a dentist or No.
SPEAKER_02No it's it's something.
SPEAKER_03And I tell you, half my class were people who had not got into medicine. Yeah, yeah. So so there was a lot of people who fell back. There were very few that actually said that they were there because they wanted to do dentistry. Most m but the majority were people who had failed to get into medicine.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03And what was it like studying dentistry?
SPEAKER_02Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Yeah. Because That's the first time we It's the first time someone said gave us positive feedback that it's studying was good.
SPEAKER_03Usually people No, no well, the the whole experience, let's put it that way. I I love being at university and I made the most of it. And you know, I got some ridiculously low results in exams because again I'd lost my focus about what I was trying to do. And I and I I can remember doing doing my physiology term exam and getting only 11%. And I was thinking, right, why are you it's better than less than 28% of I'm keeping this quiet, okay? And and the really crucial point came at the end of our second year when we sat our final exams in anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry. And if you failed those, then you were facing the resit situation over the summer holidays. And I was pretty convinced if I had to do resits, I wouldn't pass them and I'd be bombed out. So I actually got my finger out and and did some work towards the in the last term of second year and passed everything. And that was me through into the clinical years.
SPEAKER_02Were you looking forward to seeing patients or was it like a like dental school for me was the very stressful time of my life.
SPEAKER_03Like, yeah. No, I I I I can't say uh I I c I can't say I was looking forward to the intimacy of the contact with with patients and the idea that you if you don't get this right, you can do them harm. And the other thing about sticking needles in people's mouth, it just you know, it's just felt slightly uncomfortable. But like like everything else, is that you're watching everybody else manage it. So and and and they're probably feeling exactly the same, but nobody exhibits the the sort of anxiety that you feel when you start treating patients for the first time. And I can I can remember uh I we used to buddy up, and I can remember um whoever I was buddied up with was about to do probably his first or second, probably his first inferior dental block with the with the tutor behind him. And and he's kind of got his thumb in the right position, and this thing's moving around all over the place with a sharp needle in the end of it. And I can remember it was uh the the the clinician was a guy called Hector Ferrier, and he'd been um he'd been shot down in a Spitfire in the Second World War, survived it, and here he here he was uh supervising the students. And I can just remember watching him, and he grabbed the student's arm and just pushed it in one movement, and the syringe just went straight into the patient's jaw in in exactly the right position, and the cartridge was emptied. And I thought, well, right, okay, like it's not as difficult as it looks.
SPEAKER_02So you made it through dental school unscathed, there were no dramas or I don't think so, no.
SPEAKER_03No. And and you know, I started to you know, I in academically and and qualification-wise, I was probably one of the weaker students. But the more clinical stuff we got, the more I kind of rose up the class and and and and felt a lot more comfortable. Yeah. Particularly when I when I finished, because when I finished I'd applied for um a year's work in in the dental hospital as a house officer, and I got the two posts that I wanted. I got a post in the Department of Conservative Dentistry and one in the Department of Periodontology.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you were looking forward to finishing off and starting work as a dentist. Yeah. It wasn't like I'll figure it out. Okay.
SPEAKER_03And and just to to I mean I've always enjoyed working. Uh so I I worked in in in the dental hospital during the day and then one evening a week and on a Saturday morning I'd go into um uh a dental practice just adjacent to the school and do some work there as well. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And you you guys don't have to say Oh well. And what's the regulation like surrounding that? Do you have to go into here we have a comserv here where it's public sector, you've got to kind of qualify to get into private.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no. Um I the thing the UK was just about to change, okay, and introduce this thing called foundation training. Okay. And a foundation training in the UK is very, very similar to uh ComServ year, although I think there's probably um there's more supervision and there's more compliance and there's more checking. And if if you don't complete your foundation year, you can't work as an NHS practitioner. And and and there were the the nowadays just about everyone who graduates and some of the foreign nationals who come to work in the UK all do a a year of foundation training. There are very few people decide to ignore it because without foundation training you can't get an NHS number and you cannot work in the NHS.
SPEAKER_01So how was that process for you transitioning and getting into you said did you did you get into private quite uh quite quickly after qualified?
SPEAKER_03I I did the year in in Dundee, and then I thought, okay, what am I going to do next? Am I going to go down the academic route and be a registrar, senior house officer registrar, or am I going out out into clinical practice into primary care and I went out into clinical practice primary care. And it was at that point that I I'm I'm looking through the British Dental Journal every month to see what the job vacancies are, so I can find something that I really want. And and I think this is 1985. I saw an advert for um an associate in a practice just on the outskirts of Hull in East England. And the guy who was looking for an associate was had just opened his practice, uh, had become very busy, so there there wasn't a book to take over. I was going to go there and start my own book working with him. And he'd um he he'd an MSc in in in cons from Eastman Institute in London. And uh the the it that was a kind of a sliding doors moment for me in my career ending up with him because he taught me how to do proper dentistry and how to do things really well. Uh and um I ended I ended up learning so much from him, whereas had I gone somewhere else where um the interest was more in output rather than quality and learning how to be a good dentist, I might not have got so much satisfaction out of clinical dentistry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, uh to that point, the only other person that I know that's been down your route kinda is sitting next to me, but he kind of gave it up all the way at the beginning, like in in the his comms of yeah.
SPEAKER_02I knew it wasn't for me, but you practiced for like decades or uh literally.
SPEAKER_01Twelve twenty-three years.
SPEAKER_02So 23 years. Yeah. What was it like being a dentist? Clearly it was okay because you did it for twenty-three years.
SPEAKER_03I I put I put pressure on myself to do really good dentistry, and I can tell you what happened was that for four years I worked at this guy's associate. And um we were I mean he he was the first guy I saw using rubber dam. Okay. He was the first guy I saw who when the X rays came out of finished root canal treatments, I looked at them and went, that's good. And he he he he could shape restorations the way I'd never ever seen before. I mean he could he could make amalgam look like enamel indenting it was phenomenal what he could do with his hands. And I just wanted to learn that skill. We we learnt how to do our own wax ups, we used face bow transfers, uh centric jaw registrations, did occlusal adjustments, we did everything. And then we got this hydrocolloid machine to do hydrocolloid impressions and and this is where you warm the hydrocolloid up in a tray, stick it in the patient's teeth, and it's incredibly accurate and you and you have cold water going through it that makes the hydrocolloid set. And then we went upstairs and cast our own impressions and we just had it it was it was fabulous and we had we we I I learned so much working for for Alan Holland. It was amazing it was an amazing experience until he decided he his wife decided they were going to move to Bristol and they put the practice up for sale and he wanted me to pay too much for it and I thought well this is a great opportunity for me just to find a premises make put put in a dental surgery and open it up and that's what I did. I just opened my own dental surgery about four miles away and the most of the staff that had worked with with me as an associate in Alan Holland's practice came with me because he'd disappeared. So you know I'd already made team hygienists dental assistants and patients as well and the the opportunity to to do my own thing and that's what I did until um the opportunity came to work for MPS in 2008. So that was 23 years in clinical dentistry. What did you call the practice? What was the name of your practice there was no restraint of trade there. Clearly not no no no Hallgate Dental practice it was called it was in a in a village called Cottingham just outside on the on the the perimeter of Hull it was in a well i i i it was an affluent area so and and what's more I not only did I take a lot of my own patients there but by association a lot of Alan Holland's patients came with me as well. And I didn't need to advertise and we start started off doing NHS dentistry but to a private standard and it and it and it w it it it was not sustainable. And at a good patient base patients used to good quality treatment so decided to come out of the NHS and offer them private dental care and majority of them stayed and and we had a great time. So how does the how does the Medical Protection Society, MPS Dental Protection, come into the picture after 23 years it came into the picture beforehand because I can I th I I think my memory's correct here in that at w at one point round about the late 90s, 1999 I was chair of the local BDA uh branch um in in BDA's President Association okay a bit like Sada here. So we branches all over the place and I was the the chair and I remember having to get some speakers to come along and do some stuff. And um I'd I'd met John Tiernan um who a lot of people know in South Africa because I had a problem and I'd written contacted MPS to say this mad patient suing me, what what do I need to do? And it was Tiernan who picked up my case and helped me and from that moment on we struck up a really good friendship. And at around 2000 the the dental protection was expanding and they were looking to appoint um independent contracting local dental advisors and the idea was was that they would select they would have a a a a team of 50 dentists who um when needed would go out and see members of dental protection who'd run into difficulty and it might be to help them improve the record keeping or help them to sort of outcross infection issues or help them with some um some addiction problems, something like that. So I became part of that local dental advisor pool um and got to know more people at MPS. I then was asked to come in and do the telephones one day a week um and I did that and enjoyed it. What's the telephones like you just answer calls from dentists? Yeah so this is i it it's very much what you guys do sometimes as well but the the the the you know in those days we had thousands of members I mean we we we r really had the majority of the dentist as members in the UK we take up up to 150 calls a day uh from from dentists and they needed people in there to answer the calls and give the advice and and they call you and say things like well my patient wants copies of their records should I just all that kind of stuff. All that stuff yeah I've got a complaint what do I do all that stuff. And you know the the dentists phone up because they've got a question they don't have the answer to and they expect you to give it a litigative question. No no no absolutely not I mean it can be an ethical question. It can be you know what what do I do about this patient? I've just shouted at the patient or you know things like that or patients just swallowed a crown what do I do? Yeah have you ever have you been sued yet?
SPEAKER_02No. Not yet. No no not yet. Okay. 23 years you've got a track record of just one one Well it was w it was one case but it I mean it taught me a track record.
SPEAKER_03It taught me an awful lot because what were they suing you for? What was the issue? It was a it was a patient who I I felt desperately sorry for her because she had a condition that was known then as refractory periodontitis. It was one of those aggressive periodontal conditions that no matter how good her plaque control was, she just kept losing bone and she kept coming in with with um perioendolesions and pain and I I I did my very best. What was interesting was that she she picked up an advert that she read in the paper where there was another practice not a specialist but another colleague in town who who was promising um amazing results by using Q10 um bioquino at that time and and this woman was very upset that I hadn't provided treatment.
SPEAKER_01Trevor Burrus I I actually remember in one of your lectures a few years ago you mentioned this as a case study.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And you emphasized the fact that you you should not just be treating what you see but acknowledging the fact that something is there and bring it to the patient's attention. Because she kind of kind of sued you for something that you missed.
SPEAKER_03She knew there was a gum problem but she but she she thought she was going to the mirac I should have offered the miracle treatment and there was no evidence to support Q10. It's an anti-inflammatory type thing and there's probably more evidence surrounding it. But it wasn't part of mainstream teaching and the periodontists weren't using it either. Before that had happened I'd sent her to specialist and the specialist said look there's nothing you can do there's no point in doing periosurgery just keep doing what you're doing but that wasn't enough for her and and and so when I contacted MPS there wasn't a formal claim yet but they were they were wanting an investigation and I remember Tiernan saying to me send in your records and we'll sort things out and I sent in my records and he came back to me and he said is that all you've got and all I had was exam scale and polish, exam extraction there was no charting no measurements no screening nothing. I mean they were pathetic and and after that case ended I I made a deal with myself that I no matter what happened in the future I was never ever going to hand over a set of records that could be criticised by the MPS and and it and it it was through that case and getting involved with John that opened the door into MPS and then in 2008 they were recruiting full time and that's when I said right I'm I'm 52 or 53 or something I can't even count and I I don't want to be doing clinical dentistry until I'm 65 or whatever and I was really really enjoying work the the work I was doing for MPS just one day a week. I'd done uh a healthcare law degree in 2005 as well while I was still working as a clinician. That was quite tough as well but um through in 2008 sold my practice and I was just ready to go absolutely ready. And I and it wasn't because I'd fallen out of love with dentistry. It's just I I'd find something that was more stimulating for me to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and and so so what's it like being the person to go to when you're in trouble? Like I I I I do a similar role to you. I find it a privilege like to be able to help people when they are in need. Tell us about dental protection and your journey there.
SPEAKER_03I mean I think it's a difficult one to explain to lay people what what what we do, okay? Because most people think we work for an insurance company. We don't work for an insurance company we work for a mutual that's owned by our members which is slightly different. But in it's the easiest way to explain to to the lay person is that yeah we we indemnify or we ensure these guys when they have an accident and they damage a patient we pay uh to fix it and help them um repair relationships with their patients and help them um reassure the General Dental Counsel or the HPCSA that these guys are actually good dentists and they're fit to continue to practice without sanctions. So so I I really enjoyed that that side of it. I I really, really got a lot out of looking after the members and and getting a successful outcome. So I'd kind of gone from treating patients to treating members. That's the way that I explained it. But I loved the interaction with the lawyers and I loved that the interaction with Council when we had a regulatory case. At the time in dental protection I was also I eventually I kind of got a promotion along the way and I was responsible for um for curating and and setting up and delivering an event called the Dental Legal Study Day. And the Dental Legal Study Day was a brilliant day we held held in London once a year. We got some of the barristers to come along and speak on legal and ethical issues and we had we we we were sold out every single year with people that were really interested in that sort of dental legal space and and that's where we picked up a lot of our future DLCs from from them attending that event and saying Loo I really love what what's going on here. And there was a time when I can remember um one of my senior colleagues guy called Mike Clark who worked for years at MPS saying guys this is the best job in the world and I kind of felt that at the time because um it it was the job everybody wanted in professional dentistry in the UK they just wanted to be employed by dental protection at meant that you were still in dentistry but not having to do the clinical stuff which for for many was a huge relief. And there was there are plenty of people that do dentistry that actually feel like they've made a mistake but can do something with their dental degree and they don't have to do all the clinical stuff and be a primary care dentist. You're probably a good example of that that it it it it it it's actually come back to help you. But that was it it was the best job in the world. I didn't feel like I was a celebrity but I just felt that I probably made made it in dentistry. You know I I'd I'd been I'd been the co-pilot for years and years to give the aviation analogy and now I'm sitting in the left hand seat with my with my lapel badge and stripes.
SPEAKER_02It's such a cool job and I'm glad you mentioned the celebrity thing because you're somewhat of a celebrity in South Africa in den in in the dental industry. Yes nodding But how did you get to South Africa? How did that happen? Because you talked about it.
SPEAKER_03It was on John Tiernan again because um there's two two of us another colleague James Foster who has got a similar standing in Asian Australia and the two of when the two of us came in they said to us right um James you're gonna do Australia with Kevin Lewis who was the dental director at the time and Tiernan said to me right you're coming with me to South Africa and I came to South Africa and the very first place we went to was in in that time PE, and um and that was where I watched him do his first kind of stand-up routine in front of a sizable audience and and from PE we came over to to Durban where where we are just now and and that was my first immersion.
SPEAKER_02But don't don't you feel like oh what do I know about South Africa? Like why you you're just telling me do South Africa we've got to figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Was that your first time?
SPEAKER_03Was it your first time It was my first time in South Africa but um my my father's uncle was also a surgeon and there was a there was a connection in the family with Africa. So my father did work in for a while in Sierra Leone he came down and did stuff training in South Africa. So there was there was the there was a connection and the there was you know I listen what what I really liked the idea of was actually doing a bit of travelling as part of my job as well. So when John Tiernan came to me and said you've got South Africa I thought great let's do it and and and see what it's all about. Did you know any South Africans at the time?
SPEAKER_02We have any friends, nothing just let's let's figure it out.
SPEAKER_03The South Africans that came to the UK never came north of London.
SPEAKER_01Oh okay okay yeah and and what was the point of coming yeah at that stage?
SPEAKER_03Well we had a we we we had um we had a membership in South Africa of probably about three thousand dentists okay and the the administration of their subscriptions and their membership was done by Sada. So we we we we had an arrangement with Sada that they would do all our administration but um when the cases came in the cases were handled in the UK okay so the whole purpose of visiting South Africa was to try and get people to understand consent a little bit more, go out, talk to people, do roads, come to the Sada Congress um and meet members uh with the attorneys here, the members who had regulatory cases or claims we we would spend quite a lot of time sitting with members and going through them. And then and then the other side of it was John had all the stakeholder relationships. We didn't have a business development team in South Africa like we do now. So he did all the stakeholder relationships. So I got taken along to Sada and and and and met with a variety of of people that he knew and passed those relationships on to me. Yeah so it was I mean basically to increase membership as well if I can I mean the key the keys in the the the key the keys in for us in any jurisdiction are retention and and sustainable growth. So the idea I mean in South Africa the it's you're not required to have indemnity so it's an it's an optional purchase. And and so you know we're we're trying to improve safety and dentistry, improve the record keeping but we're also trying to grow our membership by being visible and being around. And there just isn't any competition. There wasn't any competition at that time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah so that that leads me to my next question or probably for both of you. Do you I mean comparatively do you find that the UK was more of a litigative society compared to South Africa.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I mean there are what's the trend now? There there are there are some clear differences because there's been a point in the last ten years where um we've been under significant financial pressure in the UK because of the behaviour of one law firm called the Dental Law Partnership and they just saw an opportunity to to process claim after claim after claim against our members for uh it was around failure to diagnose and correctly manage patients with periodontal disease and they knew that there was a cohort in certain areas of the country who would be going to NHS dentists who wouldn't be getting the correct treatment and they were absolutely right and it was a gold mine for them. And so we just said claim after claim after claim around this failure to diagnose and treat periodontal disease. Come to South Africa I can think of probably half a dozen, maybe a dozen cases over twelve years where the the the the the claim against the dentist is a failure to diagnose and manage periodontal disease. But periodontal disease in South Africa is just the same as the same etiology as it has in the UK it's just got um there's a there's a different focus, different lens that the the lawyers take here. And maybe it's only a matter of time before that changes.
SPEAKER_02But but there's no periods here and there's no periodlaims in Asia but there's tons in the UK I find that fascinating I don't know if you picked it up but there's an actual legal firm dedicated to suing doctors and dentists. Dental law partnership dental So I'm relu I'm reluctant to to to to focus on them but we because we might be giving the lawyers in this country an idea.
SPEAKER_03Exactly I'm not going to say any more in case they're listening.
SPEAKER_02They might be after but it's fascinating that there's there's a company that just targets dentists. Yes. What's the most difficult part of your job or your job helping dentists dentists We um all of us who are healthcare professionals have a pride in an ego and the w one of the worst things that can happen to you is somebody tells you that you've been negligent.
SPEAKER_03Okay. And I think the hardest thing to do is to to say to members here, look um we're gonna have to settle this claim because we can't risk taking you to court where when we don't have um a supportive expert to say that your treatment was of a reasonable standard and everybody you know w one w no matter how you frame it, okay, it's criticism. Okay. And i it it's a fellow professional criticising another fellow professional and some people don't take it as easy as others. Some are just glad that we're we're going to take the pain and and and and and the stress away from them. But others are I feel very strongly about um not having the opportunity to have their day in court and you'll know that you you don't go to court unless you've got a nailed on case and and that's that that's probably the hardest bit. But you know you know I've had um I I've had two or three members over the years um not in South Africa who um whose careers have been ended because of addictions, alcohol addictions and one uh one dentist who I knew really well um who had alcohol addiction and um not far from where I lived one night went out um having had a big drink and fell asleep in the snow and died. And the the you know it it's it's that sort of thing. There are members who take their lives because of the stress of the the investigation um and you have some difficult cases where uh it's it's addiction and health issues and the health issues are really difficult to deal with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so so that that that was the negatively uh couched question where I said what's the the hardest part or the most difficult part?
SPEAKER_03What's the best part of the job? The the hardest part is dealing with the health issues and giving people bad news. And the best part? The best part of it is meeting colleagues and helping people and making them better by by by resolving complaints and things like that. And it and it is it's you know there's a sense of satisfaction not my satisfaction but satisfaction for them and you know to hear somebody say thank you and you know what it's like because you've been with me in South Africa. People come round uh and and and and sort of want to shake your hand and say um you won't remember me but there was such and such a case I just want to say thanks for the help that you gave me and I'm saying look I'm only doing my job but that's really nice of you. But I'm you know I'm not in it for the glory. I feel I'm quite a humble person. I just like doing my very doing doing the job to the best of my ability and if I can do it well I'm probably helping one or two dentists.
SPEAKER_02I mean just to give people a sense of the scale of the amount of work you've done and people you've helped when we had congresses and somebody stops by and says hey Alistair thanks so much and I say to you Alistair who's that and like I can't remember like that's the number of people that have been helped and touched.
SPEAKER_01But also at the same time like your your guy's job is difficult. It's you dealing with people that are coming in that are already on the back foot emotionally, clinically probably financially as well. Because no one comes to you and there's everything's good. When something goes wrong that's when you got to deal with this person. And that's why I'm glad you mentioned the best part of your job is you know meeting colleagues or whatever. Because even those positive outcomes are kind of still born out of something that went wrong. And people won't probably don't even want to acknowledge that they know you. And sometimes there's negative outcomes eh it's not always positive.
SPEAKER_03And I you know I I I I mean the jeopardy in the UK from the regulator is serious. I mean the the General Dental Counsel have got some teeth and they bite. I'm not convinced the HPCSA have got the right teeth and and they don't bite very often I think that the the the jep the jeopardy of an HP CSA investigation for the dentist is probably not quite as serious as in other jurisdictions that we we provide our indemnity in. So that's one good thing. But you need effective regulation to keep standards up. And you know, the less effective they are at uh at investigating and sanctioning the dentist, they're probably just as inefficient at maintaining proper professional standards and and and making sure that the dentists are doing the right thing here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So let's have some tea then, I guess, or if you want to spoil the tea. What's the worst case you've ever dealt with? If if you can remember.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I can. Um I mean for reasons of confidentiality I can't go into it. Of course, yeah. Um yeah, I the I've had one or two cases. I mean I I've I I've I can remember um a case a few years ago where we where um we said to the member, I'm sorry, we can't help you, you're not in the right grade of membership. Oh yes, I am. And uh there was a big fight and it won on and on and on for months, and um there was a complaint made. The relationship becomes really m really really difficult. And so so so so that member management was one of those things. And I always felt that uh his membership ended, uh, we w refused to renew him, and I always felt that there would be probably a hit out in me every time I pulled up Joe Burks or or turned up at a an event because people are generally not very happy when when MPS make the decision to terminate their membership. And generally on on and on on on good grounds every time. I've never seen a bad decision to terminate a membership at MPS. Um the the the the circumstances are properly looked at and the decisions are always right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh that's actually well, it's good from my point of view because uh when I asked the question, I was thinking about you know bad outcome for the dentist. It sounds like a good outcome for that practitioner. We were lucky, yeah. Yeah. Any uh further T you want to hear?
SPEAKER_02No, I mean I yeah, I don't want to put Alice in the position where he has to be a good idea. Okay, you can't lawyer. But what's next? I mean, what what's what's the plans? Because it's you know, you you're you're leaving the place now, right?
SPEAKER_03Okay, so you know, in in 2019 MPS made a decision to get closer to their members in South Africa, and we've now got a CEO who's very keen on having a global position rather than be having this UK base. And in 2019 we made the decision to um move all our South African work, both on the case handling and the business side into teams in South Africa. So you work for a subsidiary called MPSSES, who now handles all the dental and medical cases in South Africa, which means my desk in the UK is empty. On the business side, um I used to do make all the decisions about what lectures, what conferences we went to, what we did, I had a budget, and that got taken away from me probably about 2020 as well, uh and and devolved locally into a business team. So even though I was called head of dental services and and still am today, um it it it really is a it's a title that didn't exist and I haven't had any skin or inter any I've had plenty of interest in South Africa, but no interest in the decisions that are made about about how the cases are handled or how how we position ourselves from a business perspective here. So um it's it's the end of the road for me with MPS. They've decided that this role no longer exists and they're offloading both myself and Graham Howers, who's head of medical services with effect from next week, which is the end of July. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And um I uh look we're at the flagship dental congress um currently, for those watching it now, it's towards the end of July. And um You know how the dentist what what's the feedback been for you? Like uh is can't be.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, before you answer that, I didn't this is uh some independent evaluation yesterday. Yeah. Um because you guys were on stage speaking yesterday, and then Yash uh had a pause and he said he wanted us to say something personal before the end. And I mean a lot of people at these congresses, I was sitting at like towards the the corner at the end and I was looking at everyone, and everyone looked up and then he said what he needed to do to build up quite a nice uh effect there. And um Yeah, then he said what he needed to say, and you then you came on and you said what you needed to say, but you kind of started m walking off the stage, but uh did you notice that you had a standing ovation at at that? Because a lot of people actually appreciated what you have done over the years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I I did. I mean, uh obviously we knew that Yash wanted to have his have his minute and just say some stuff about how we've managed to work together and and learn from each other and we're good buddies and we could shout at each other and fall out and do all that sort of stuff. But I re I I realised then that there's a lot of people out there that in that audience are gonna be thinking, Well, what on earth's going on here? Because Kelby said nothing. There's been no announcement, there's been nothing said by Sada. And um I remember last year I got an award in Pretoria from Sada. And uh in my acceptance I kind of suggested that I wasn't sure whether the end was near or not, because at the time I didn't know. But um the the So he Yash you know gave me the opportunity. Well, I felt I couldn't walk off stage without explaining what this was all about, which is why which is why I I I I very quickly just gave that five, six-year history of moving things away from the UK and and eventually my role becomes redundant because there's nothing for me to do, and they can't redeploy me into another role, equivalent role in the business. So it's it's bye-bye, McKelvey. But as you say, yes, when I walked off the stage, I was feeling kind of emotional about it all, and I did know people were up and standing, and and that's lovely. I mean, I I again I'm I I I I've never had that before, or I've never felt that love before by an audience, and I really appreciate and it tells me that that whatever I've done, I've helped. And and and I can't I and I can't if you said, How have you helped in South Africa? I I I would just say, just like any of you guys, just doing your daily job, that's that's all I've done. And it is for I've been lucky enough to do it in South Africa where I've made a lot of friends, uh and and so I feel quite emotional about leaving. I I find it difficult to talk to people about the fact that this was this was the end. And and it's just surprise because nobody expects it. They just expect you to be part of the scene every year. And and when you think of before before the pandemic, I used to be down here four or five times a year. So I I was a regular visitor. We did a roadshow, so I was popping up in lots of different places, lots of different branches, doing lots of different events and conferences. And then the pandemic came and that's when MPS realized that they could they they they could do things virtually and we had to do it through webinars. I don't think webinars are the solution. I think that just like the conference today, the people need face-to-face contact, they need the colleague the colleague-to-colleague stuff. And and the fun we had on Friday night and then Saturday night where you get like-minded people joining together, having a few cocktails and a dance around. It's been absolutely brilliant, and it is every year here, and that's something that that we really look forward to that you lose out with all the virtual stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yak will know this. Well, so all of us in this room will know this. But dentists are not easy to please, right? So I think we must pause and just acknowledge that there was a conference room with hundreds of dentists that nobody forced him to do it. Uh you know, I was in two minds about saying what I said the other night. But I was so glad in hindsight that I did it because everybody rose to their feet and they applauded the guy. So you know, when I saw that happening, I was like, okay, it was the right decision to make. And um yeah, so I just want to highlight that.
SPEAKER_03Listen, I'm grateful to you. And I mean it it will be it'll be a memory I take away from from here, but I I mean I keep saying I'm I I've never wanted to be a hero anywhere. Um but I I think there's something very special about an organization that looks after their members with technical expertise, with healthcare professionals who really, really understand how the dentist or the doctor got into that difficulty in the first place, how they're feeling and how they need to get out of it. And it's a special relationship that that I guess won't exist anywhere else, particularly in the world of commercial insurance.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03So what's next? Are you moving to South Africa? Yeah. No, no. But I mean when I told Cobas Barnard that this is the end, he says, Oh man, you just need to buy a house in Fancourt where it isn't near a golf course and and move here. So um no, but I will continue I will continue to come back to South Africa. I mean, listen, I don't know if it's the end of my career, you just never know what options turn up. And you know, there may be there may be there may be other um associations or or insurers or indemnifiers who have got their eye on the dental um environment in South Africa that might want an old guy with a bit of experience, but but m but but maybe not. I need some time off just to to regroup. I haven't I haven't had more than two weeks off work in my life uh from um the summer of 1984. So uh it you know I I that's just the way it's worked, I guys. I mean I've planned to have a bit of time off between selling my practice and coming to the MPS, but but it hasn't happened. So, you know, there's some downtime, we've got lots of things to do. It's summer in the UK as well, so if you're ever going to be a good time to be laid off your job, uh the summer is the summer is when it's gonna be. And um I'm going back tomorrow night and I got a hand in all my stuff on Thursday, and we were having a big do, big celebration on Thursday night um in Leeds. Nothing to do with MPS. This is just a party I'm hosting for for myself and my friends, so we can all come along and and shake hands, have a cuddle and a kiss, and and bid everybody farewell. Yeah, I wish I could be there.
SPEAKER_01Uh uh Yeah hashtag no invite. But um I have one question for you. I've been dying to ask this, not just now, like from the time that I got to know you and I realized that this guy was working with you. And you mentioned it yesterday, like you go sh closing the door and shouting on the phone and all of that. But how is it working? You can see by his facial expression, he's a crump. I'm worried.
SPEAKER_02I'm worried where this is going.
SPEAKER_01But how how was it working with Yesh? I mean, he's he's a fraction of your whole career and you've come across many like this grumpy dentist.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, I wish I'd had some time to think about this question, okay, because the there's a variety of answers I could give. Okay, so remember the honest one. Okay, so I used to Annaline uses the word I all the time, but MPS used to do business with Norton Rose, okay, when you were working at Norton Rose. And and it was I I loved working with Norton Rose. Uh you know, I thought m your boss Maria Philippides at the time wa was one of our best attorneys, and she really looked after our members well. And I I I mentioned to you the other night about going into the Norton Rose building in in Santon, and it was just like going into another world, it's opulent. And and whenever we'd remember meeting there, um the the the refreshments were brilliant. Um and that's where I met you. And and at the time we didn't have a presence in South Africa um for anyone to handle cases in the team, but you you you were always asking me, you know, can I work for for MPS? And I remember that um with with when Margie van Gogh was in charge. And I think I said to you, I think there'll be something happening, and of course it did, and and you got the role. And you know, I knew that you were going to be the right person for it. Um it's been good fun, and I've learned a lot from you. Um the shouting was funny because because uh because because there's raised voices in both both sides, okay. And and it happened three times that day, okay. And and there's one of the managers in the office came round to me in the middle of the shouting and put a note on the table, say, can you lower your voice? Okay, so so so I I did, okay. And then and then the call ended, and then we had another one about half an hour later, and it was even louder. So another note came and said, You're interfering with everybody's peace. So so so then the call ended, and then there was a third call. Jeez, and and there was nowhere for me to go in the office. There were no rooms to go into, and I didn't have my headset on, and he just went ballistic with me afterwards, and I got into serious trouble just for shouting.
SPEAKER_02You know what? I I feel like uh I always say you you're not a real you're not really friends until you've had a disagreement or a fight.
SPEAKER_03Um that's when I knew Alistair is my actual friend, because uh we we Well I mean I think I listen, I I I'm not gonna be I I I'm I I I've got lots of female colleagues in the office as well, though. But I think the man thing is that eventually we can we can we can agree to let bygones be pipe bygones and and and and make make up. And I think that it was much better when we did. And it you know it it it's he's got a tough job now because he's a single resource, he's the only dentist looking after um the membership in South Africa. Whereas um when I was doing it, I had some backup from initially from Hugh Harvey up in the Edinburgh office, and then laterally from from Jim Lafferty and Louise Egleton. I could always pass stuff on to them when I wasn't there or when I just got too busy or whatever. But there was a time in my career when I would travel to South Africa and I'd have to do my casework at the end of the day and into the evening because there was nobody else that would help me. So I and and I've always had this thing about how long have you worked for um MPS? And and when we got to ten years, w James and I would say, whoever was asking, well, um we've been employed for ten years, but we've actually worked for 15 because we did so much that it was out of hours, and and you know, I this is probably my 60-something trip to South Africa. Um and you know, it takes its toll, um, it takes its toll on personal relationships as well to be away uh overseas. And um it's it's you you you you know, you you you make friends and he's one of my friends, and even though we're stepping down next week, um I'll still be in touch with him. I'll know what he's up to, I'll know what he's doing. Um and uh you know he he I I said it yesterday that the membership are gonna be in good hands while he's there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, appreciate it. So what's the short term plans? You're gonna play some golf and Yeah, um, what are you gonna say?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're when I get back, we're away on holiday next week. Um up to Scotland. I've got uh a little cottage looking over the sea in the island of Aron that I I own with my sister that's been passed down through the family, so um we're doing that. Um loads of golf. Um and earlier this year I did a cycle A tap round Loch Ness, which was about sixty-eight miles with the the Killer Hill, and I stupidly agreed to do another one on the 8th of September round Peebles, which is slightly longer. So what what I do is when I stupidly say yes, I enter these things, I then uh speak to my colleague Jim Lafferty. Jim's Jim knows everything about everything. And uh and I say to Jim, I'm doing this, what do you think? And he gets the route out and he has a look at the hills and he tells me you won't make it, McKelvey. And and from that moment on I say, I will do it, Jim. You wait, just wait and you see. So I'm doing that in September. We're going to another holiday to Corfu, which we always do every year, and then some golf stuff in October or November. And after that, who knows? I'll be got bored with doing nothing and going to the gym and playing golf, and I'll probably start thinking about what else I can move.
SPEAKER_02Moving to South South Africa. Yeah. No. I if if so if Yak and I or Yufti and I come to Scotland, we've got free accommodation, we can check up with you. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03You lot'll be cold though. I mean, you just have central heating. I've seen you turn I've seen you lot turn up to work with your co outdoor coats on sitting there and and it's nineteen or twenty degrees. You know, if it's nineteen or twenty degrees back home in the UK wearing our shorts and t-shirt.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Alistair, no, it would I I'm glad you came on the show and thank you for giving us your time. I am going to miss you, as I said last night. But um, as you mentioned, we'll be in touch and we'll carry on um communicating and who knows, maybe I'll um see you at one of our competitors competitors in the future.
SPEAKER_03But you know, I I mean the thing the the thing is it's very easy to come to South Africa. You've just got to sit in the plane all night and and and uh and put up with that. But there's no time difference and there's a lot of sport here, there's great golf, there's good weather. I'm gonna be backed down absolutely no problem. The UK is different for you guys because your money doesn't go very far and it's expensive to come to the UK, but you know what you'll always have somewhere to stay without there being being being being a charge for accommodation or anything like that. And um one of the things I I know both of you will like is that I live across the road from two pubs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, a giveaway. Um what a cheap skill. You know, he's not asking for free accommodation for both of us. Yeah. Or maybe he is.
SPEAKER_03Well, I have got I have got some spare rooms.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's not a it's not a castle, but it's got more than one bedroom. Yeah, but I just wanted also to say thank you for not just uh being who you are to dentists uh in its entirety as a profession, but also to this guy, kind of making an honest man out of him. I've seen his transition from the time. Was he dishonest before? No, no. This morning. But um yeah, I've I've also noticed his transition. And Yufti, his wife would also agree. He never used to be this guy that used to go out and speak and like do this sort of stuff. It's difficult. But after joining M MPS, he's done a lot more of that.
SPEAKER_03He said to me yesterday, he said to me, Do you get nervous before you go up and speak? And and absolutely everybody gets nervous and and you never ever get over the nerves. And I and I I find the more you do of face-to-face stuff, the easier it is to get up and and do it. And w w I used to do a roadshow here where where we'd end up going to eight or nine branches and we'd do it with Casey and and Cobus or Casey and Dr. Quinda when he worked for the HPC CSA. And you would learn so much about your presentation and your talk each day that by the end of the week, the presentation you ended the week with is completely different from the one that you started with. And the problem of doing one-offs like we did yesterday is that you've never really had the chance to try that one out. You don't know how it's going to work. Um, there's only so much rehearsing you can do of your subject. And then you're faced with this environment on the stage yesterday where it was really difficult to see. It was really difficult to see your slides, and and setup's important as well. And normally we work off our laptops in front of us, and that was different. So all of a sudden you're doing something that you're not familiar with in a completely different environment and you're nervous. And and those things never ever go. Um you there's always a degree of anxiety. You know, I get on the first team the golf course now, and I'm looking right, where's the trouble in the left, where's the trouble in the right? And I get anxious. You know, I and I've just been on the driving range where there's no trees in the left and no trouble in the right, and I hit perfect shot after perfect shot after perfect shot, and I think I've got it. I go to the first team because there's something, there's some pressure, and there's something going on out here. I put a completely different swing on it, and that's down to anxiety and nerves, and it's just the same. And the only way you can overcome them is to get really familiar and own your presentation. And I was just really envious of what Annaleen said to me this morning at breakfast, is that she's done it at 40 or 50 times the same presentation, and that's when things become easy, and that's when you don't need to see your speaker notes or see what slides on, you just know automatically. But um that's one of the problems of of of of doing webinars and not doing face-to-face stuff where you've really got to perform. Webinars are are are dead easy for the person who's delivering the webinar because uh you've got all your information in front of you, but completely different when you go out on stage and do a live event. And yeah, I was nervous just like him. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Well but No, well, Yak alluded to it, but uh I'll just say it. I mean, I've learnt a lot from you. You've uplifted me. You you've made me feel safe uh in in situations where I felt, you know, nervous and unsafe, and I appreciate it all. I wish it you could have carried on for decades to come. Um but who knows, maybe we'll give the same presentation again someday. You never know.
SPEAKER_03You never listen, you you n you you never know what's round about the corner. I mean, the the the the unexpected turns of my life are amazing. Um and there's things that have happened to me that I I I I I definitely wouldn't have expected and planned, and you know what some of them are. So um you never know what lies ahead. Um and you know, I could be back in South Africa working, maybe not for I I don't think the MPS will turn around and and see the video of last night with the people clapping and there must be a video somewhere, okay. And if there is Stacey Stacey Mac will have found it and it'll be it'll be out there because Stacy loves following what I'm up to. Um but but but it you know maybe management will see that and and they'll stop um me going onto the chair on Thursday, but I don't think so. I think my career with MPS is over, but you never know where I might re reappear.
SPEAKER_02Who knows? Well there's I think there's good things to come. Thank you so much, Alistair, for even joining us today. Yeah, thanks so much. Well thank you both.
SPEAKER_03I mean it's it's i I I feel like it's a great honour to be interviewed by you two. Okay. I think you should feel it. I mean, it is an honour. I i it it is an honour, and and I mean, um it's been a really interesting hour and it's taken me back to some places that that I hadn't thought about for a while. So thanks very much. Um good luck with the show. Thanks, man. Thanks. Cheers.