#43: Writing a Book While Working Full Time: An Interview with Kemi Doll, MD

Are you an expert who wants to share your knowledge with the world, but doesn't know how to communicate your expertise into a book, or even where you’d find the time to write it? If you’re ready to take what you know and become the successful author of a nonfiction book, this episode is for you. 

In today’s episode, Jane sits down with her coaching client Dr. Kemi Doll. Kemi Doll is the author of A Terrible Strength: The Hidden Crisis of the Black Womb and Your Survival Guide to Healing (Harmony Books). While she was working as a surgeon, physician, researcher, advocate, and coach, she decided that she also was going to write a book. How? 

What does it take to write a well-researched, science-based, evocative book that gets attention from news channels, experts, and the literary world in just one year? Once you listen to this episode, you’ll know exactly what Kemi did to bring this book into the world. 

We’ll cover: 

• How writing a book compared to writing successful grant proposals, op-eds, and journal articles in academic medicine. 

• Why learning how the publishing world works — and how it’s radically different from academic medicine — helped to relieve Kemi’s stress about the writing and publication process. 

• Why Kemi knew she would work with a coach, and why high-achieving Black women often hesitate to ask for help (it’s not for the reasons that you think).

• How we created time for writing in Kemi’s busy schedule and managed her cognitive capacity so she could complete a book in one year while finding joy in the process.  

• The one area where Jane struggled to effectively coach Kemi. 

More about Dr. Kemi Doll: 

Dr. Kemi Doll a physician, surgeon, researcher, advocate, and coach working at the intersection of health justice, reproductive equity, and personal empowerment. She is a Professor at the University of Washington Schools of Medicine and Public Health, a double board-certified Gynecologic Oncologist and OB/GYN, and the Founding Director of The Gynecologic Research and Cancer Equity (GRACE) Center. Her groundbreaking research on racial disparities in endometrial (uterine) cancer has been funded by the NIH, PCORI, and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and featured in The New York Times, NPR, BET, and Good Morning America.

A sought-after speaker and public voice, Dr. Doll co-founded the national nonprofit Endometrial Cancer Action Network for African Americans (ECANA) and built KD Coach LLC, a coaching company that has supported over 200 women of color faculty in securing millions of dollars in grant funding while reclaiming joy in their careers. Her podcast, Your Unapologetic Career, has over 200,000 downloads and continues to uplift and challenge listeners through honest, witty, and actionable conversations. Dr. Doll lives, writes, and works with deep purpose—and is unwavering in her mission to create a more just and joyful world.

🩷 If you loved this episode, please leave a review! That’s how this powerful information will find its way to more listeners. 

To connect with Jane, you can follow her on Instagram @janejoannphd or visit rightprose.co

To learn more about Kemi, you can connect with her on Instagram @kemidoll

To learn more about Kemi’s book, A Terrible Strength: The Hidden Crisis of the Black Womb & Your Survival Guide to Healing, visit kemidoll.com/book 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Hello, hello, and welcome to today's episode of Academic Book Writing Simplified. I'm really excited about today's episode because I am featuring my friend and client, Dr. Kemi Doll. Now, if you've been a listener of the podcast uh for a while, you know that I don't do one-on-one coaching, or at least I didn't do one-on-one coaching. I was only doing group coaching. And one of the reasons this interview is so special is because Dr. Kemi Doll is the person who convinced me to come out of retirement, so to speak, and start my one-on-one coaching practice again. So we are going to talk about that in the interview. And of course, also talk about how she wrote her book. So Dr. Kemi Doll is the author of A Terrible Strength: The Hidden Crisis of the Black Womb and Your Survival Guide to Healing. She's a physician, surgeon, researcher, advocate, and coach working at the intersection of health justice, reproductive equity, and personal empowerment. Kemi's a professor at the University of Washington Schools of Medicine and Public Health, a double board-certified gynecologist, oncologist, and OBGYN, and the founding director of the gynecological research and cancer equity center called GRAC. Her groundbreaking research on racial disparities and endometrial or uterine cancer has been funded by the NIH, the PCORI, and the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. And it's been featured in the New York Times, NPR, BET, and Good Morning America. And I'm giving you that amazing bio because it's amazing. And also because amidst all of this, Kemi decided she wanted to write a book. So what we're gonna do in this episode is talk about how she wrote a book while doing all of these other things, what the process of working with a coach was like for her, as a person who is also a coach and a person who's achieved a lot in her life and still realized she wanted help with this. And of course, how we work together for her to write her entire book in just one year. So if you're a person that feels like you are pressed for time writing your book, or you are an expert who wants to write a book on your expertise on top of having your full-time job, then this is the episode for you. So sit down, grab your notebook because you're gonna want to take notes, and settle in because we are going to get into all of it. Welcome to Academic Book Writing Simplified. I'm your host, Jane Joann Jones, a writing coach and developmental editor who's here to give you some tough love about the way you write. This podcast is for women and non-binary scholars in academia who are writing academic books, but feel as if the process is a little or a lot like a mystery. If you're ready to trade your confusion and frustration for ease, clarity, and purpose, you're in the right place. Let's get into today's episode. Dr. Kemi Doll, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Jane. I'm so happy to be here. We're like talking over each other already. I'm so excited to have you here. So we are gonna get right into talking about your book, A Terrible Strength, and the process of writing the book. And for those of you that don't know, Kemi wrote a book. It is called A Terrible Strength. It is about Black woman's reproductive health or the black womb, as Kemi likes to refer to it. And we will read the book to find out why she refers to it that way. Because on this podcast, we are going to talk specifically about her writing process. Although, of course, before we do that, I am going to encourage you all to read this book. It's amazing, it's important. And you should have it on your desk or your bookshelf or wherever it is you keep your books in your home. So Kemi, how are you? You're just off your book tour.

Speaker 4:45

Jane, I'm good. Yes. Um I'm really good. I feel complete in terms of like what I set out to do for the book tour, but also excited because more opportunities have come out of that. So it's kind of nice to feel like done with what you built, but then excited because more, you know, more is still on the way and coming that you didn't have to build, you know? So that's where I am. I'm in this place of like feeling really content about that and excited for the future.

Speaker 1 5:15

That's so great. And I know that your like visits to bookstores and institutions is kind of over, but you're also going to Essence Fest.

Speaker 5:23

Yes, one of the things that came out. Yes, yes, so excited.

Speaker 1 5:26

And it's Martha's Vineyard Book Fest.

Speaker 5:29

Yes, the Martha's Vineyard Black Book Festival, which is like it's so funny because I think numbers-wise, it's like a fairly small event. But the caliber of the authors that are going to be there is like stratospheric. I'm just, I'm so honored and just geeked. Like I'm literally going, I'm I have to tamp down my fandom because I just want to go and like fangirl. Everybody'd be like, oh my God, you're so amazing. You know. Um, but yes, I'm going to the I've been, I should say, I've been invited as a featured author at the Martha's Vineyard Black Book Festival, which is incredible. So I'm excited about both of those opportunities.

Speaker 1 6:06

So exciting, so exciting. And, you know, we're going to get into talking a lot about the writing of the book and your writing background. But I just want to say it's all seems like a little bit of a whirlwind. And I think for a lot of listeners of this podcast who work in academia in a different way than you do, Kemi, meaning that they work with academic presses and they go through this peer review process. The book takes a long time. Like it takes a long time to get from idea to this point where the book is out and it's published, and you are doing any type of promotion to it. So we're going to talk about how your timeline was a bit quicker than what some of our my normal listeners might be accustomed to. But first, I want to know and full disclosure, me and Kemi worked together. I was her coach. And we're going to talk about that experience on the podcast. But I just want everyone to know that going in. And we're going to talk about the experience of writing the book, how long it took to write the book, what it was like working with a coach and so forth. But first, what I want to know is a little bit about your writing background. So as I say in the introduction, you are a medical, an academic medicine researcher. So first tell us a little bit what that means. And then tell us a bit about the type of writing you do.

Speaker 7:29

Yeah. Okay. Sure. So I mean, my background is in is in medicine training. So like my doctorate, I'm a medical doctor. Um, and then uh during the time after I finished, after I graduated from medical school, and then was doing the endless years of clinical training in the hospital, where you are just you are just working all hours of the day and night, learning how like all the theory you learned in textbooks actually applies to the human body. And so I'm doing that and I'm recognizing like, okay, I'm reading all this literature, like you read journals, you read scientific articles that have informed how we take care of people. But I just remember feeling like I want to understand how to do this kind of research. Like you start to get a sense of it's a lot more complicated than just testing A versus B and let's see what happens. So then I went to graduate school in uh the Department of Epidemiology at UNC to learn medical clinical research. And so that is really like it's all human-based research, taking ideas that have come up in basic science, foundational science, et cetera, and trying to understand how this works with the human body. And in my world, what I was actually doing was thinking about the healthcare system. So I was in something called um, I mean, my postdoc was called the Cancer Um Care Quality Training Program. And so our focus was understanding how the healthcare system interacts with the human body, interacts with um, you know, people's culture and families and stuff to produce the health outcomes that we see. So I just say all that background to explain, like, we call that health services research. And so my writing up until the time I started working with you was really writing in service of the research I was doing about Black women and uterine cancer or endometrial cancer and how that related to other aspects of the Black gynecologic kind of life course journey, which was one of the primary perspectives that I brought to my work. So, my writing up until then was writing research papers, also writing um editorials, like for journals. So, like a paper would come out, I would write the editorial, thinking about what the paper means, you know, um, and then also grant writing. So the currency of being able to do any of this in academic medicine research is you have to go and write grants and compete for these biomedical research grants at federal and non-federal funding. So I was writing constantly, uh, really writing grant proposals, which I call persuasive scientific writing. So it's a little bit different than um writing a scientific paper, which to me is more explanatory scientific writing and kind of narrative in a way, but like grants are really persuasive scientific writing where you're trying to make a specific scientific argument and using all the tools at your disposal. So that was the writing I was doing before writing this book.

Speaker 1 10:22

Okay. So you were a steady writer. You were writing a lot.

Speaker 10:26

Oh, yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like between working on a grant, revising a grant, working on a paper, revising a paper. Also, I mentee uh, you know, having both graduate students and postdoc mentees in my lab reviewing and editing their writing and, you know, teaching them how to write. It's like all of that, I was a writer. And then I guess I should say in 20, maybe I was when did I start my newsletter? Maybe 2019 or 2020. I started my career development newsletter where I was writing to other women of color in academic medicine. And that's where I kind of started writing just about career development and progress. And I just wrote this newsletter once or twice a month for like 18 months. And that was probably like the most dedicated time where I was doing non-scientific writing as well. I'll add that in. Yeah.

Speaker 1 11:14

Okay. Okay. And some of this was on top of also being a doctor in a hospital.

Speaker 11:20

Oh, yeah. I was, yeah. Like, I mean, I'm a double board certified gynecologic oncologist. Um, so I was practicing gynecologic oncology. I had a clinic. I saw patients every week. I had an operating um, I went to the OR, took patients to the OR for their surgeries, for their cancer conditions, um, usually every other week. Um, so yeah, I was doing that. Um, I I it I closed my surgical practice in 2022 and I closed my clinical practice, I think, in 2023, something like that. So, like, but up until that point, fairly recently, yes, I was also doing that.

Speaker 1 11:57

Yes. So to put it mildly, you were very busy.

Speaker 12:02

Very busy, yes. Ver very full. And I mean, if we're talking about busy outside of coaching business, I started in 2019. So I was coaching first one-on-one and then running group coaching programs, and then eventually running a company of coaching programs where other coaches would have been doing the coaching. Yes, I was doing that. In addition to your public speaking. In addition, yes. Then also I would be invited. So, yes, I was doing, I was both I was already used to public speaking because of being a researcher. Like you can't be, honestly, you can't be successful if you don't, you know, if you don't learn how to get in front of people, talk about your science, et cetera. So yeah, I always had invited talks at different departments about my research and then would present my science at conferences. And then I started doing public speaking just for the career development work, the coaching work. So I was also, yes, I would have like kind of invited keynotes um spots to also talk about the career of academic medicine and science.

Speaker 1 13:02

Okay. Okay.

Speaker 13:03

So and two kids, if we're talking about and a spouse that I like. Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:08

Spouse that you like, kids that you like. We're young. They're they're relatively young.

Speaker 13:13

Yeah, they're right now, they're 11 and 7. So during this entire time I'm talking about, they were, you know, zero, zero to eleven. Yeah. Like, yeah. I feel like I just got out of like the the toughest time when they're so little and it's so hard.

Speaker 1 13:27

Okay. Okay. So as you were doing all of these things and you are incredibly busy and incredibly fulfilled because all these things are very fulfilling. Sure. You decide that you also want to write a book. Correct. So, how did you come to that decision?

Speaker 14:24

You know, um, I think a combination of things. Um, one thing was that, you know, just purely out of my research, you know, one of the things we kept finding was this kind of motif of endurance among the black women and the black um people with a uterus that we would interview and that would be a part of our studies. And then even our um, like our community partners when we were trying to investigate what's going on with black women in uterine cancer, there was just this very consistent motif I was hearing about, again, the life course and all these experiences women had had, and then also like their what they were taught and how they were kind of embodying the strength and endurance. And I just I always kept filing that away because I'm like, this is not, we have all these intervention programs and we're doing all of these different scientific studies, but like this goes in a different bucket. I just remember thinking in my head, at some point I have to write about this in a different way because a research paper is not going to change this problem. So that I had that in the back of my head. I was going around giving talks, and Jane, every time I would finish, especially a career development talk, every time somebody in the audience would raise their hand and be like, where is your book? Like, where is this written down? Where can I buy this in a book? So I had that sense of like, okay, maybe I should put this all in a book. And then um, and so those things were in the back of my mind. I was writing my newsletter. I was thinking, you know, I can write. I enjoy this writing that's not just scientific. And then um, you know, I was on social media and uh and an editor from Random House, the lovely Jamia Wilson, slid into my DMs and was just like, hey, I really like the kind of stuff that you're putting out. I'm wondering if you ever thought about writing a book. And I was like, yes, let's meet. And we ended up having this very open-ended conversation. It had no action items, it had no timeline. It was just an open-ended conversation of talking about like the different things I do and the different things I care about. And like, and I remember leaving that conversation, just thinking, like, I don't, I have too many different things in my head. Like, I don't know what how this is one book. Like, I don't know what this is. And it was a lot, I just let that sit for a while. Um, like I think she reached out in like 2020 or 2021, you know, and it wasn't until I think 2023 that I got a literary agent. And I was like, okay, I I'm ready to really conceptualize what this book is. And I had written a few chapters, a few essays, and then from there was like, okay, I think I know now what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 16:52

Okay, okay. And just to demystify this for people who have not published, even a publisher reached out to you, you still got a literary agent.

Speaker 17:01

It was still. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So that's what I'm like demystified. Yeah, I think publish. I think people and I didn't know that either, like at the beginning. I mean, these all these things are signals. What I'll say is all these things are signals, but there is literally no shortcut. Like, so like I think people listening should know just because an editor reached out to me and was like, hey, I'd love to chat about this, like, did not have anything to do with me actually getting a book deal or anything like that. Um, so I, yeah, so and and I was grateful for her because she literally was like, Okay, so whenever you get serious, I was like, Okay, I'm not serious. She's like, whenever you get serious, you need to get an agent. That's what you need to do. And she gave me like, she gave me some names of like, I think these would be great people to work with, but like I still then had to go and query agents and email people and be like, hey, this is what I want to do, et cetera, et cetera. And then find an agent that that I clicked with that also saw a lot of potential in my work. And then we started working on the book proposal. And we worked on that proposal for like nine months. So it was almost a year of just getting a handle on what the book is, was almost a year. And then we took that proposal and started pitching it around. And that proposal then is what secured the book deal. So that I mean, it's a it was a very long process from that first, just like, oh, an editor reached out to me and said, like, maybe I could write a book.

Speaker 1 18:26

Yes. Thank you for clarifying that. And if you're listening and thinking of publishing a book, rewind, take notes of what Kemi just said. Absolutely. About the process and working with the agent on your proposal. Yeah. And querying different agents, you know, and really finding the person who's going to be your champion and your cheerleader for that proposal because they are the person who takes the proposal to the press.

Speaker 18:53

Yeah, absolutely. And I I mean, there's a lot of different models too, Jane. Like I know people, some people are doing hybrid publishing and self-publishing. I don't know if we're gonna get into that, but I I totally hear there's obviously there's so many pros and cons, et cetera. You have to figure out what you want. Um, for me, I I knew I was gonna do traditional publishing. Like that was never a question for me. And um I would say that it would be irresponsible to try to go through traditional publishing without an agent. Like it just like there's too much um machinations in the background and things that I just think it would, it would literally be irresponsible.

Speaker 1 19:30

Um I'm not even sure it's possible. I'm not even sure that's it. I don't think they take un- agented proposals.

Speaker 19:37

I don't think they're I'm not sure they do. I wouldn't be surprised because I feel like it would also just make them legally liable in a way too. I think they wouldn't want to be subject to like, oh, you took advantage of me. It's like, no, you get your agent, so like we're all on the same page. Um, also, I just wanted to say I I know different agents work differently. You know, so like I worked with an agent who's like, I sweat the proposal. Like, I'm not, I am not going to anybody until I think that this proposal is like solid and ready. Different, there are agents that work differently who like maybe you write the whole proposal, they're not touching it. They're just taking it and being like, okay, I like this. Let me go shop it around. So I do think that that's important. Like, there's a lot of variety within that. I was very happy to learn. I really felt like a student and I enjoyed that process. So I was like, yes, like teach me. Let's like I want to know what a great proposal looks like, and and figuring out the specifics of the book through this process. So um I enjoyed that. But yeah, that was that was almost a year. Um, but again, before we're even shopping it around. And then I think we started shopping it around in like December, and we got a verbal deal, I want to say, in like February.

Speaker 1 20:49

Yeah, some of what I remember.

Speaker 20:51

Do you remember that?

Speaker 1 20:52

Yeah, because I think I think I think it was around this in the spring. Like the publisher's weekly thing came out.

Speaker 20:59

Yeah, it came out in the spring. Yeah, that came out much later after the verbal. Because and then there's the verbal and the written deal, which also come at different times. I'm like, this world is crazy to me. Because I'm like, do I have a deal? Like, does this email like count as a deal? Like, what is this? But yeah, and some of that was the holidays, I'll say, because like we started having like serious meetings in December, like right before everybody disappears. So it was kind of like we had these like series of like exciting serious meetings, and it was like, listen, nobody's gonna be back till like January 15th. I was like, okay. So then I kind of had to wait, and then conversations picked back up again in January, and then February. We got kind of a verbal offer, and then it was like April or May, I think, before the contract that then we reviewed, went back and forth. Agents going back and forth, my agents going back and forth with the contract to get it where she thinks it should be. Then I signed and they and then the publisher's weekly announcement. Actually, I think the publisher's weekly announcement came out a little bit later, actually, than that.

Speaker 1 22:04

Yeah, it might have been like May or June.

Speaker 22:06

Yeah, it was it was a little bit later. And so then, yeah, and then it was from that point on that I had a year to turn in the manuscript. And by that time, I think we had already we started working together in like April.

Speaker 1 22:19

Yes, we started working together in April, although we had decided to work together well before that when you told me we were working together.

Speaker 22:32

I was not that I just sent Jane. I feel like I remember asking, will you be my book? Coach. I feel or maybe I said, Jane, I think that you should be my book coach. I think I said something like that. I don't remember the details, but I was grateful that you said yes.

Speaker 1 22:48

Well, I you convinced me because I was not working with one-on-one clients at that point. And you I do remember being like, I'm working with me. And you said, Well, you're working with me one-on-one.

Speaker 22:59

Correct. I do remember being like, Yeah, I'm not, you we're gonna be this is gonna be one-on-one. Because also, I just go ahead. Sorry.

Speaker 1 23:05

And to be clear, Kemi and I had known each other before that. She did not just show up in my DM saying, Hey, you're gonna be my coach. Like, I don't want anyone to think Kemi would do that. Oh, also a relationship before that.

Speaker 23:16

We we had a relationship before that. We were already friends. We had met in like business coaching circles several years before. We had met in person several times. We have each other, we knew each other. Like, and I think it's important to know I also knew your work and I knew your style of work. And that's why I felt comfortable saying, like, hey, I want to work with you one-on-one because I kind of know what I need. And I feel like you're a great, like you will be a great container for like what I'm looking for because I knew you and your work and how you worked.

Speaker 1 23:47

Thank you. Yeah. So let's talk about your decision to work with a coach. And you know, as we have talked about, you are already, you by the time you decided to work with me, you are already incredibly accomplished. You've written and published in top journals, you've written successful grants, you have a writing practice that already is like you're disciplined. I don't like the word discipline, but like you're a consistent writer who has a regular writing practice. Yes. So at that point, why did you decide that it was important to you and to your success writing this book to work with a coach?

Speaker 24:28

So, first of all, as a coach myself of other people, I am very clear that when you are embarking on something new or something big, something long-term, all those things, it is very easy to get in your own way. It is very easy to not recognize that like you're using the wrong tools to make progress, that like the tools you might be using are um outdated compared to what you're trying to do. Like, I just understood I myself coach high achieving black women who are doing big things. And I knew that it was like, I knew how helpful a coach can be to help people from stalling out in ways that they don't even see. So that was one thing. So I'm like, I should say, I'm like coach-oriented in that way. Number two, I knew that um this book thing was new for me. So obviously it was gonna like bring up all these feelings, whatever, whatever. But also that, like, again, as a learner, I wanted to feel like I was in the hands of somebody who's like, I do books every day, all day. Like I know the journey of the book writer. Like when I work, I work with clients writing grants, and I'm always like, listen, I know the journey of the grant writer. You're gonna do this, then you're gonna feel this way, then you're gonna feel that way. Then that it like it's like I understand that math, which is why I can help you so much get out of your own way. I wanted that same experience. Like somebody who's like, Yeah, I have shepherded so many books through. I know the process. So I was eager for that because as we have alluded to, I had a year to write this book, you know? And I and I was not interested. I remember telling you, like, I'm not interested in being somebody pushing their deadline back, pushing their deadline back. Like, I know that this is like the culture, but that has never been your girl. Like, it wasn't me on grant writing, it wasn't me on paper writing. Like, so I'm like, I am not interested in that, but I don't know what it looks like on the book world to support yourself in a way to like feel done, et cetera. And then lastly, and I remember talking to you about this, I wanted to enjoy myself. I remember you asked me, like, what do you want out of this? Like, what are you looking for out of the process? And in addition to, of course, writing a great book, I was like, I did. Thank you. I remember feeling like I want to have, I want to enjoy myself during this process. I don't want to be this to be a year of suffering that I'm just complaining about and like, you know, barely getting through. And I'm over that. I don't like I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in working hard for the challenge of the writing, not in working hard and suffering because of schedule and stress and pressure and all that. So I I wanted that to be a goal and kind of was like, I trust you as my book coach to help me make sure that that pleasure part of it um stays at the forefront, recognizing how busy I am and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 27:15

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because you were incredibly busy, and we're gonna get into how we found you time. Yes. But I just want to circle back because you mentioned that you coach high achieving black women. I coach high achieving black woman. You're sitting right in front of me on Zoom. And you know, sometimes there is a hesitance to ask for help. Yeah, because it's because we're worried that if we ask for help, people are going to think that we're incompetent somewhere. And there is that fear. And you have been very public about working with me as your coach. Yeah. You're on this podcast, you've shared it in other platforms. How did you? I think so. Let's get into that, like that fear that some people have. And I know this especially happens in my world of academia, which is social science, humanities, and also people writing nonfiction, where some people have to, you know, hide that they're working with a coach because there's judgment there. And I'm sure you have seen that in your coaching practice, where people might say, like, I don't really want to publicize that I'm working with a coach.

Speaker 28:24

Yeah. I think there's uh I think a couple of things. I I saw that more earlier. I do think it's coaching and medicine is getting more normalized because for a long time, Jane, the people who had to go to a coach in medicine were people who had to be remediated. Like you're going to a coach because you have anger management problems. You're going to a coach because you, you know what I mean? It's really like professional remediation. That has changed. So I'm seeing more and more people realizing, like, oh no, I want to coach because like I want to have the best people on my team. I want to have somebody backing me. And so I've seen a little bit less than that in terms of that fear of looking incompetent. However, a different fear is definitely rising, which is the fear of wasting my money and wasting my time. So, especially what I see in high achieving black women who are like, I have big dreams. I want, you're so used to the fact that you have high standards, you work at the top of your game, you have high expectations, and you're so used to other people not meeting them. You're used to, you're used to seeing mediocrity being rewarded when it's not on a black woman. You're used to having to work with team members and things that are like produce work that are like, oh, this is fine. And you're like, this is not fine. It's riddled with errors. And, you know, and unfortunately, as we both know, there is so much shenaniganry in the quote coaching world because it's an unregulated industry for a lot of reasons, whatever. And even if it was regulated, by the way, there would still be nonsense. Like I actually should, I want to like strike that because I'm like, medicine is highly regulated. And you know how many quack doctors there are out there? But anyway, how many quack lawyers are there out there? Exactly. Quack lawyers, like there are yeah. So that's the regulation is not gonna be anyway. But but I do think that people have been burned too. They're like, you know, I wasted my money hiring this person or this person who's supposed to be great. And so I can tell you for me as a high achiever, yeah, at this point I'm so discerning. So I'm like, I'm tired of wasting my money. Like, I don't want your time, which is very important. And exactly.

Speaker 1 30:20

You wanted to write this book in a year. Yes. You had specific goals, you had a lot of other things going on. You didn't have time, and you didn't have time to work with them for three months, decide you didn't like them, and then try to go back to the drawing board. Like that time is unavailable if you are a person who's writing from a place of expertise and you're spending your time cultivating that expertise. Correct. It's like then you want to write a book and you on top of that.

Speaker 30:47

And I want to have space, I want to have space for this book to be good, right? Because this book is not about like checkbox, checkbox, checkbox. I did it, right? I want to feel like, oh, this is like good material, right? You know what I mean? Like I'm letting it breathe. I'm like, I'm letting it affect me, like I'm letting this process be alive for me. So I get people don't want to ask for help because I actually I think that there is a recognition that at this point in time I think is a reality. Maybe I'll change my mind, which is that a lot of times the level of help and the quality you're looking for is rare. And if you're not, if there's not a way for you to distinguish, like, okay, this person is actually helpful or this program is actually helpful, you don't want to waste your time. Yeah. And that's another reason why people don't ask for help. Because it's just like, I what for what? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think that's why I I asked for help because I knew what I wanted, but also I knew you.

Speaker 1 31:40

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point. And we and ironically, we came to each other through, like deepened our friendships through a very good coach through our coach that we share, who is an amazing coach. Yeah. In an industry full of charlatans.

unknown 31:59

Yes.

Speaker 1 32:00

Yes, who is, you know, we're gonna shout out Jesha here, who is a fabulous coach. And it was actually at her retreat when you were like, You're gonna coach me. So let's get into the time, talking about, you know, how you want to make sure you're using your time well. So your goal is to write this book in a year. You achieved that. I did. It's a book that includes qualitative research. You interviewed people, you interviewed women who were experiencing the conditions I was writing about. The conditions you were writing about. You did secondary research on the medical literature, you drew your own expertise as an expert on this literature.

Speaker 2 32:41

Yep.

Speaker 1 32:41

So this was a researched book.

Speaker 2 32:45

Yes.

Speaker 1 32:46

It also included personal narrative. Yep. And that's a lot to do in a year, that type of book.

Speaker 32:54

Yeah, I'm now learning this. Like, I'm like, oh, because every time people are like, wait a year, I'm like, uh and I remember actually my agent was like, listen, it's gonna be due June, whatever date. I know that's fast, but it'll be okay. And I was like, I think it's fine. And I think she kind of looked at me like, uh, okay, you know, and then I started turning in chapters, you know, like early. They were like, oh my god, like who are you? And I said, People don't do this.

Speaker 1 33:19

I remember you were so shocked, you're like, Jane, why is this so slow? And I'm like, Kami, Kami, publishing is different than being in an operating room.

Speaker 33:27

And this has been honestly, that was a huge. I don't know if you're gonna ask me about like what I got out of coaching. I think yeah, one of the most surprising things that was so in like it was so critical for almost every goal that I just listed out earlier to your earlier question. It was so critical for all of those goals for me to under to have a guide helping me translate the world of publishing and the communication styles and the timelines. Because you're right, I just I came from a world that is so like deadline driven, metric driven. Like I tell people all the time, like, why did I turn my book on time? Because I'm used to writing grants and nobody gives you extensions. There is no such thing as like, oh, I was in a car crash, and can I have they literally don't care. Like it, there's no extension. So I am, I've been, I've been forged in a world where if the deadline is noon on that Tuesday, that is the deadline period. And if you miss it, you're missing out on five million dollars of funding. Yeah. The end. There's no discussion. So there's no discussion. Moving from that world into publishing where everything is a lot more loosey goosey, where like I was like, Jane, I I remember you literally told me, like, you're gonna put an equation in your head. And everybody, every time somebody tells you that like they're gonna get back to you by the end of the week, I want you to multiply that by two or three. I remember you starting to tell me you're like, this is what you're gonna do. Cause like I am trying to help your stress and set your expectations. This is a different world. And I'm just I'm emphasizing this because it was, it would have been a place of growing stress and anger and resentment. And I was literally putting the wrong, like I was interpreting some of these things as disrespect or as like they don't care, or there's a problem. I haven't heard back. And so for you to be able to be there and be like, okay, this is your time thing again, Kemi, where you are interpreting this in a different way was helpful because again, we have to remind people listening. This is one thing I am doing amongst all the others. It's not like, so it's like I'm forgetting all the time this rule, you know. And I'm like, Jane, once again, and you're like, let me remind you, Kemi. Like, we're back in the book world. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 35:45

Yeah. So you literally had to like take off, I'm gonna make a real visual metaphor. Like, you took off your white coat. Yeah. You have to put on like your writing blade, your writing. Yes. And be like, okay, now I'm in the writing world. Yes. You know, I'm in the publishing world. And also I move differently here.

Speaker 36:03

I need to move differently also to be like to build relationships. Like it's not even just about like, oh, let me calm down. Like, I'm feeling fiery. It's not that. It's like, are you interested in building relationships? Like, these are people who want to work with you. So you need to learn how to adjust how you move and how you interpret communication and how you communicate. Otherwise, like you are not going to do well. Like, yeah. And so that was a huge, like it was a huge moment of professional development for me that I do not think would have been possible without a book coach who is so well versed in that languaging, right? And in all of that. Um, so yeah, I just wanted to highlight that among I'm sure the many other things we'll talk about.

Speaker 1 36:47

All right. So let's talk a little bit about how we found you the time to write. Yes. As we mentioned, you're you're you're a busy, you're a busy one. So we went through all of your jobs already. In addition to running a nonprofit, which you did not notice, you did not mention.

Speaker 37:04

Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah. Well, because I stopped, well, I stopped running the nonprofit in like 2022. But as you know, I'm still heavily involved. Yes.

Speaker 1 37:13

So and I want to be clear though, when we found time for you to write, what we did not do was say Kemi is going to write from 8 p.m. to midnight every night. Like Kemi is going to write on top of all of her time. No. So we carved time out of your day. You know, we went into your work week specifically.

Speaker 37:39

So this, I think a big part of the a big piece of the work that we did was being able to look across all of my calendars in one place, family calendar, um, my faculty life calendar, my coaching calendar, all of that stuff. I had already done work to like, um, because I already was like a hybrid. So I was running this coaching company and I run this faculty world, I already had like some sense of like these days I put towards coaching, and these days I put toward faculty life. So there was some of that. But within that, we were able to say, okay, these are the times where we are going to put some experimental writing time and session and we're gonna see how it goes. And like, and then also, so that's one way we did it. And I I think it was also helpful because we didn't do it like you said, even like every Monday, every Thursday. It was more like this week, this is what it looks like. This week, this is what it looks like. And so, and I remember you said, and then you gave me tools to track. You gave me tools to track productivity and like meaning, like how many words are you writing, and also what are not just that though. Like sometimes it was word count. Sometimes it was, you know, like the list of things that we had set out that I was gonna do, research or background or brainstorming or transcribing an interview or whatever. And so then we could use that early data to figure out like, okay, what is the pace that you're working at? What are you slow in? What are you fast in? So I remember like it's all kind of vague right now, but I just remember at the beginning, like there was a lot of you kind of like looking at the calendar, looking at what I was accomplishing, reading. Um, you gave me the thing where I kind of do like a pre and a post kind of quick snapshot, very, very quick, like pre-post journal thing to get a sense of like, and I would honestly, as soon as I do those, I forgot them. So when we would meet and you'd be like, So I noticed ABC. I'm like, I don't even remember writing that. Um, so all of that, I feel like in maybe you can tell me, but in retrospect, I'm like, oh, all of that was you like fig literally figuring me out. Is that right? Now I want to ask you, what was it like that first month? Like, what were you doing? Tell me the magic. Yeah.

Speaker 1 39:43

You're like, what happened, by the way? Yeah. Well, yeah. So what we did at the beginning was I wanted to figure out a little bit about your pace and also when you were able to do certain types of work.

Speaker 39:55

Yes.

Speaker 1 39:56

So when we think of cognitive capacity and how we can divide our time with a book, because there is when you think of a big writing project like a book, there's low-hanging fruit and there's higher. So there's some things like transcribing an interview. You don't need a lot of mental capacity to do that.

Speaker 40:14

Right, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:15

For you, reviewing some of the literature is like I've read this already, I just need to go back and look at it again. Yeah. That's not the most intellectually taxing thing to do. So what we were doing in the beginning was I was through the platform we use, like you were doing those things in writing, like, oh, I got this done in 20 minutes, and I thought it would take me 30. And I'm like, okay, so this is something that Kemi is quick at.

unknown 40:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:40

This is something that Kemi needs more time for.

Speaker 40:43

Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:43

And also, she probably shouldn't do it on days where she has to go to work immediately after, yeah or whatever. You know, so kind of figuring that out. Also establishing weekly targets. So, like, what is a eight hours of writing in in a good week? Yes. How much can we realistically I do remember this? Yes. Yes. So we decided like a four-hour block was good for you. Yeah. You like the morning. Yeah. So that's when we did a lot of the important critical work, hard work.

Speaker 41:20

Yeah.

Speaker 1 41:20

That day where you're like, I can get started like as soon as these kids go to school. Literally. Like, I can go and kind of like put up my do not disturb, not answer email, not do anything. And write. So then we were very opportunistic about trying to find that time on your calendar. Yeah. So that we can make sure you had at least one of those blocks every week. A lot of weeks you had two.

Speaker 41:49

Yeah, I do remember that. Yeah. And I do also, I just I had forgotten now about, yeah, you're right. We had these weekly targets. So like you had that sense. And then we tasked out so much stuff. So much. So we would then task out, like I remember you would just be like, okay, so what do you like? What do you need over? Like, what do you need to do to finish that? And you just start asking me questions. It's like, okay, so then like within this chapter though, that means you have to do A, B, C, D, or D. So like by the end of it, I would have like this whole like the list of all of the discrete things that needed to be done, which were all very different, but they're all are under the like the chapter is done thing. And so, and then tasking those out to the different days. And then, yeah. So then when I would sit down for a session, I would already know, like, oh, these are the three things I'm doing. Yeah. Or these are the two things I'm doing. And they would already be matched with like that time, the cognitive load. And it's funny because it's very similar to what I teach in the grant world, but it's so interesting how like when you're in it in a different context. This is why I like coaching though. It's like it's it's not, it fee it's not as intuitive as it is when you're in your own context. Exactly. And that's the difference to me. It's like, oh, I don't want to have to spend two years figuring this out. Like when somebody else already knows how to do this. So I remember that too. I remember the weekly targets. I remember each session already having the goals set.

Speaker 1 43:14

Yes. So when you sat down to work, yes, worked. Yeah, you not spend 30 minutes trying to figure out what you were gonna do.

Speaker 43:21

No, no, no.

Speaker 1 43:22

You it was ready because we were feed, and when we met, we would look at your book outline. Yeah, and from the outline, we would create the tasks. And every task had a time estimate attached to it. Yep, yep. So that we can figure out, you know, if you have a week where you have seven hours, what's realistic to get done?

Speaker 43:42

Yeah, and also that you're not going to be at 100% for seven hours. So yeah. So it's like, yeah. So what are the what are the big things you can do? What are the small things that you can do? Um, and I think it's also important just to mention, like, also when do you need breaks? Like I remember you were just like, okay. And so I think you were the one who was like, Kimmy, I think you need a break.

unknown 44:02

Yeah.

Speaker 44:03

And like I was not, I was like, what? And I'm like, no, I need to finish this. I need to finish this. I need to finish this. And you're like, no, I am looking at your progress. Like, I'm looking at where you are. And I remember you one also saying, one, you are in a great place. And two, you need to take like three weeks off. You need to not, you actually just need to not write for three weeks. And I was like, what?

Speaker 1 44:24

You were dead. You were resistant initially, but then coaches.

Speaker 44:28

I was resistant initially, but then I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it. And it was so helpful though, because I really needed like some reset time, I needed some rejuvenation time. I really Needed to like, I needed to give my brain a break, honestly. And when I came back, I was much more like, okay, I'm ready. And also I feel like you were good at helping me navigate the publishing kind of milestones where these were not these, this is nothing contractual, but just like, you know, my editor was like, okay, you know, get I think actually my agent was like, why don't you get like two or three chapters to your editor by like this date? So she can start to get a sense of what it's looking like. So you were helping me navigate those internal timelines so I could do that, but then stay functional and productive after that. So it wasn't like I turn in the chapters, I'm not doing anything for six months until I hear back. Because I remember you being like, So you it might be three months before you hear back, Kami. I was like, oh, she and you were like, Yeah, so we are gonna keep making progress during that time so that you can meet these deadlines. And those are things that were also helpful in addition to just managing the emotions of, you know, having your work read for the first time and like, you know, appreciated and managing all the feedback. Like I would get tons of feedback in live meetings with my publishing team, and then have to kind of digest all of that and then figure out okay, what are the tasks that are coming out of this? Right. Like, what am I doing? What am I not doing? Like that parsing through that was also super helpful on our calls.

Speaker 1 45:57

Yeah, yeah, because there was a considerable amount of feedback and which is great, by the way.

Speaker 46:03

So people work with editors, they hear nothing back, which is crickets and they're like, Wait, what's happening?

Speaker 1 46:08

Yeah, yeah. And what people sometimes forget is that that all has to be absorbed into the timeline somehow. Yes. All of that process feedback, making a revision plan. Yes, then you need to have three revision. Yes, I really different steps. Yes, exactly. You know, and people are just like, oh, I'm just gonna like go and I don't know, like just get in my document and start doing things. It's like, no.

Speaker 46:35

You know, I mean, if you have no timeline, honestly, if you have no timeline, no pressure, no nothing, I guess. But I actually think like I always say structure creates freedom. And I actually even think structure creates creativity. I think that like, at least for me, it's like the that foundation of the structure is what then allows my brain to be like, we could do anything. Like, because I now know it's like, okay, here's the this is the revision time. Like, I understand what I'm within. So you're not thinking, but if I do this, does that impact this? Does that impact that? It's like, no, all of that is already worked out. So then now I can just really move with the instinct that I have and the creativity and the artistry that I have around this particular piece I'm looking at right now. So that I think is what's so beautiful about being supported.

Speaker 1 47:22

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I don't think that being, you know, just kind of, you know, throw things in the air and see where they fall leads to. No. I find it stressful.

Speaker 47:34

I think it's stressful. And also, honestly, I think it's kind of I think it's kind of um, I don't know. Maybe I'll get in trouble for saying this. Sorry if I'm dragging anybody, but it's a really easy way to not take responsibility. It's a really easy way to be like, well, the art is driving, not me.

Speaker 1 47:52

You know, stuff like that where it's just like like I'm just a passenger on this journey.

Speaker 47:56

Yeah, and it's like I don't know, like we're not talking about fiction either. You know, we're talking these are we're talking about nonfiction, we're talking about like, like you said, researched books, we're talking about that world, right, of translating your expertise. And there is artistry to it. I think, I think my book has been so well received because there is so much personal in it, and it's it's thoughtfully put together, like the way that it, the, the, the, the, um, cadence of it, the, you know, all of that, the balance of it. But that was thoughtful. I mean, that that's not just like random.

Speaker 1 48:29

You know, and that would only come after you had the science.

Speaker 48:34

Yes.

Speaker 1 48:35

You know, that came because you had the science as a foundation, and then you're like, okay, but how am I? Then I get to tell a story about the science.

Speaker 48:42

Right.

Speaker 1 48:43

But I gotta have the science like structured in.

Speaker 48:47

Right.

Speaker 1 48:47

Because otherwise, I'm gonna tell the story and people are gonna be like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 48:51

It's boring. And also because I was doing live interviews for the book. Um, so everything wasn't just like pulled from a research paper. So even like that planning ahead. I remember you helped me with that. Like, when are when are you reaching out about the fibroid story? And like, when is that actually happening? And like all, and then, you know, I not everybody does this, but I felt it was important to let everybody that I profiled read my summary of their stories so I could be really sure that me and them, you know, that they that they felt well represented in the way that I had summarized their stories. So that also takes time because now I'm giving it to people being like, you have a month, like just let me know, but I have to be really generous. Like, so there were all these moving parts that needed to coalesce. But at the end of the day, we did it because I turned my book in actually a week early because I went on vacation. And I was like, I'm not taking this with me on vacation. So here's the final book. Enjoy.

Speaker 1 49:48

Yeah, one year. Well, 51 weeks.

Speaker 49:53

51 weeks, 51 weeks. Yeah.

Speaker 1 49:56

Incredible. All right, and I have two more questions. So, one was that in order to create all this time on your calendar, you did say no to some things.

Speaker 50:05

I said no to many things. Yeah, and thank you for bringing this up because uh I just feel like my coach self is coming up. Like a coach is not cannot tell you no for you. Like, like you can say, you need to say no, whatever. Bottom line is you need to say no. Now, I I came into you with a healthy no muscle. And I came to you already having been like, listen, I've tried to block out time here, time there. Like you helped me see like we're gonna maybe have to be more flexible in this. But like this sense of I am ready to say no in order to say yes to this, I concur. Also, it's not just time for me, it's also energy. Like I recognize I'm like literally, it's not about whether or not it's not about like, oh, I could do a quick one-on-one coaching session from eight to nine before I have my writing block from nine to one. But I but if I do that, I will have taken 25% of the energy I was gonna put into that writing block and give it. So it's not just about the time. So I think that I had been saying no to things in terms of keeping, keeping like my meetings minimal and that, but also saying no to things energetically. Like I had to step back from a coach from a program that I was still sometimes coaching in. I'm like, I cannot do this and do the book because I need that energy back for me to do the book. It's not about whether it fits in the schedule. So I think that anybody listening, you have to know that. Like you are doing the hard work of investing in yourself and saying no to things before the thing that you're working on is created. That is what's hard. What's hard is that this is a multi-year process, even though the writing was mostly one year. I already told y'all I spent a year on the proposal. I was also saying no to things to spend time different so I could work on the proposal. Like, and all of that is before this May 5th, 2026 publication date, like years before. Um, but certainly by the time we're working together, there's a lot of no's when the book isn't coming out for two years. So I just think sometimes there's this underestimation of like how clearly you have to be investing in yourself early enough for then what people see now on the other side.

Speaker 1 52:15

Yeah. Yeah. They think that understandably, because so much of it is opaque, but yeah, you see the published book and you're like, oh wow, like that's so exciting. And then, and it is exciting. And then you pull back the curtain, you're like, this was a four-year from thinking of the idea to uh talking to an editor to working on a proposal to find the right agent to then actually starting to write the book, you know, yes, starting with the proposal and the agent, you know, yes, all of that, like it is a long process with a lot of steps and a lot of and every step has a lot of parts.

Speaker 53:01

And depending on your prior experiences professionally and what you have and haven't done, those different steps and those different parts will impact you emotionally in different ways. Yeah. And so I that's that is definitely part of the reason why I wanted to coach, not for the therapy part, but for the identification part of like, hey, this is actually a really normal step, but you're freaking out about it. Or, you know, this is actually really important. And I feel like you need to understand that you need to put more time into this part or that. Like, I just think that you can't discount because all of us are achieving in the way that we have been formed to achieve. And then you go write a book, and it's like, yeah, some of those things are very different here. Like, those aren't the same, you know what I mean? And and in some ways it's kind of nice. Like, nobody ever gives me kudos for turning in a grant on time. Like they're like, this is literally your job. Like, like there's no like nobody's celebrating you because you turned in a grant by the deadline, right? Whereas I turned in chapters and stuff, and people are just like, you are a dream client. Oh my God, like everybody needs to be fine. And I was like, Yeah, you know what it's like. So they're like, I think that's the other thing is that you might find these beautiful aspects of yourself that you put maybe have taken for granted that will serve you so well in the publishing world, just like you're gonna find parts of yourself that are like, oh, this is actually not that well suited for publishing, and I'm going to have to adjust. Yeah.

Speaker 1 54:25

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. All right. So I have one more question for you, which is and this is kind of a big one, but when you started coaching, or when you decided to work with me as a coach, like what did you expect would happen? And then what actually happened?

Speaker 54:46

I expected more writer's block. Um, and I think I expected like I don't know. I think I think probably I expected more writer's block and more like emo I don't know emotional problems. I don't really know, honestly. I think I I was just like writing a book is really hard and I'm gonna get exhausted and and then I'm gonna like have writer's block and I'm gonna have terrible feedback that I'm not gonna know how to incorporate and like you know, Jane is gonna help me because my identity is gonna be attacked. I don't know why I had like these fanciful ideas. I would say I expected it to be a lot bigger, like the diet, like the dynamics and the challenges and whatever, but I would actually say that the power in the book coaching was a lot quieter. It was a lot more about building a very solid structure, a very solid um cadence and pace. It was about, it was like the quietness of building these kind of reliable signposts that were catered directly to me and how I work and the actual work, like the work that I was doing, like what was required for the work that I was doing. That setting up such a comfortable and secure environment that made what I had imagined to be a process that's like a roller coaster up and down and whatever, be so much more stable.

unknown 56:27

Right?

Speaker 56:27

So much more. So when I ended up having struggles, it wasn't like these big dramatic moments. It was more like you just saying, like, Kami, I have noticed that like you're slowing down a lot, and I think you're pretty tired. And I think you should take a break, which is like very different than kind of maybe what I had imagined of like I'm staring at a blank screen and I don't know what to do. You're like, no, you do, but like you spent two hours writing two paragraphs yesterday. It's probably time for a break. Um, so I would say that that like I feel like that was different. Um, and I think just appreciating how powerful it was to have you holding the book in your mind, like and and in your processes. Like sometimes you would update stuff, like I would not be, we would sometimes work together on the on the um website platform you have, but sometimes you would just do stuff. So then I would just come in and I'm like, oh, and like you had set up new milestones or new targets or new whatever, just to like as you were adjusting to what I was doing. Um, all of that just made me feel so held in a way that was so important. So I just think that it was almost like I expected more of like in my head, I had imagined more of like, you know, I don't know, like what is really holding you back from accepting this feedback. And it wasn't that. It was much more like um, it was much more of the support and the structure, and then noticing the ways in which like I was well suited and ill-suited for the task, and then supporting me for the things I was more ill-suited for, and praising me for the things that were going well to remind me. Like, I just remember how many times you were like, Kami, you are this is you are doing great. Like you are moving very quickly. You are doing very well, you are in a great position. Like just things like that to help normalize where I was. I don't know. I don't know if I answered your question, but that that's how I think I'm thinking of it now. No, no, I think you answered it. Oh, wait, can I ask you the same question? What did you expect versus what it was like?

Speaker 1 58:26

I'm like, now you're interviewing me. Um I expected, you know, that what did I expect? I have to think for a minute. Um I expected that you would be yeah, one thing I expected did come true. Like I expected that I would have to kind of manage your pace a little bit. Yes. Because you were like out of the gates, and I was like, this is a year-long project, Kemi. Like, you cannot be at 10 for a full.

Speaker 59:00

I remember my first writing session, I did like 4,500 words, and you were like, Kemi, this is not going to be sustainable. I remember you were like, this is great, but also I want to let you know it will not be like this.

Speaker 1 59:11

Yeah, yeah, because I think you know, when you think of grants and articles and writing them in such a condensed amount of time, yeah, yeah. You have to put everything into it. Yeah. Quick turnaround.

Speaker 59:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1 59:22

Yeah. And a book is like, yes, a year is quick, but it's also not grant quick. It's nowhere near. It's nothing compared to grant quick. It's quick compared to other books, but it is not quick compared to what you're used to doing.

Speaker 59:35

Correct. And this book in particular pulled so much on my work. I mean, again, like we said, we I did new research and stuff, but it's not like starting a new idea from scratch.

Speaker 1 59:47

Yeah. Yeah. So managing pace was something that I expected I would have to do. And I did. And you were very amenable to it. And I think also, you know, I hadn't done one-on-one coaching for a while. So I was like, are we gonna like, is this gonna, are we gonna get along?

Speaker 1:00:08

Oh, that's so funny. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:00:10

And not get along in any type of like, like I said, we're friends, but I was like, am I ready to go back into the one-on-one world because I had been doing so many things that were curriculum-based?

Speaker 1:00:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:00:20

And this, of course, drew on curriculum I've created, but then it became a very different, a different experience of really, you know, making sure that this was a different type of book. You know, it was research, but it was a memoir. It was with a traditional publisher. It was very different from what I had been doing. Because I've been working with academic presses. It was like an interesting challenge, and I really enjoyed it and realized how much of it is transferable, which is nice. Because like you see, you move from one world to another, you're like, is it gonna be the same? Is it not gonna be the same? But in publishing, some of it is similar similar enough. And then just like the fun of it.

Speaker 1:01:10

Like, I think we had fun. I know we haven't talked about the fun of it. It was fun. And even just like, I remember you would like read. I mean, you were not a you didn't work as a developmental editor for me, though I know you're capable of that. Um, but I like like every, I don't know, I feel like maybe halfway through or something, at some point you read like a good chunk of it. And that was fun too, because you were like, okay. And I was like, okay, give me your feedback. And you were like, I feel like I have the same feedback that you've probably gotten about like the science versus the story, et cetera, et cetera. But even like it's like part of the creation process is the structure process. How much is memoir here? How much is this here? So, like, I just that was fun. And even I remember towards the end, like you were really good about being like, So, is this the kind of research where you're just refreshing yourself, or is this kind of research where you're reading new things? Cause like you had started to figure out like these are two different things. Like, are you going to find new articles to synthesize? Or so, like, even just having that level of familiarity with like what the tasks were at hand was like. I mean, I can tell you it was fun for me. And every once in a while, I would just like talk to you about like some of the research. You'd be like, What? I'm like, I know, that's why we have to write. So that was fun. Um, and I guess I know we're coming up on time, but the last thing I would say is that um that we haven't, I feel like, touched on as much is that I was very bad about celebrating. I was very bad about enjoying myself. Like, I was enjoying the work for sure. Like, I like the process of doing the sessions and stuff. Like, I enjoyed the writing, I enjoyed the research, I enjoyed doing the interviews. But the piece of like, can we just celebrate though outside of that? And I remember I failed in one of the things you told me to do. You as we talked about my advance, and you were like, listen, you have to use this percentage of it to just like enjoy yourself. You have to spend this much money a month just like just enjoying yourself, just doing something nice for yourself because you're doing the work now. So you should enjoy some of that. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 1:02:54

And I remember when I was so bad about it. I was like, I what? I was like, you got an ice cream one? And you're like, I got the kids' ice cream cones too. And I was like, they're kids, they deserve ice cream no matter what.

Speaker 1:03:11

I just like it was so funny because you're like, This is how much money you should spend every month just being able to celebrate that you did this, which was very conservative, y'all. Compared to my advanced, I just want to make sure people understand. This was very conservative. There was nothing irresponsible about this. And we came back and you're like, so what have you done? And I was like, I bought a $3 ice cream coat. And you're like, oh my God, get me. So I mean, did I succeed in that? No, but I did succeed in taking the break. I did succeed. I celebrated when the book was done. I remembered like the very, like the first draft, kind of like before the second, like before the kind of feedback. I remember like you helped me incorporate this concept of celebrating along the way as much as I could, because I started to realize that it's such a drawn-out process. There really isn't like one moment where you're like, it's done. Even when the book, even pub day, is like, there's so much more. It's like it's pub day today, but the launch is in the launch party is in another three days. And then, like, okay, then we have the launch party, but then there's the tour. And even now, I'm done with the tour, but then there's going to be the paperback. Like, you start to realize, oh, there's not actually this one pinnacle. So if you don't celebrate along the way, you miss the whole thing. You do waiting for the moment that you're supposed to celebrate.

Speaker 1 1:04:32

Yeah. And it goes back to what you were saying before, you know, like it's a long process. And you have to, you're saying no to things that you want to do. You know, like you're making time. You have to give yourself a reason why that's worth it.

Speaker 1:04:45

Oh my God, yes.

Speaker 1 1:04:46

Exactly. The the gratification is so far away.

Speaker 1:04:50

And and and and metered out in crumbs so that if you don't give it to yourself, it's never gonna feel like enough.

Speaker 1 1:04:56

Yeah. And that's the other thing about we were saying, like putting yourself in the driver's seat of this process. Like, I'm gonna control it, like, yes, this is a milestone. Yes. This is a milestone. You helped me do that. This is a milestone.

Speaker 1:05:07

Yeah, I I remember you were really good about being like, so this is a huge milestone that you're just about to hit or that you just hit. And I'd be like, what? Like, so that was also helpful for me too.

Speaker 1 1:05:16

Yeah. And you got a little bit better. Like, I feel like you you got more than an ice cream cone one month.

Speaker 1:05:22

Yeah, I did. I did. I did, I did better. I did. Like, I honestly hiring a stylist was that that was for me. That was like very much. I was like, you know, I never all those months, I added up all those months, but I didn't spend the money I was supposed to. And I was like, I'm gonna get a stylist. And that has been so fun. And that has really been like like that to me was like a big just like this is a gift to celebrate this process. Plus, you get clothes that you keep forever. Um, and so yeah, like you, you really helped me do that. So I'm appreciative, Jane.

Speaker 1 1:05:54

I'm glad. I'm glad because that that was, I mean, of all the things I coached you on, that was probably the stickiest one.

Speaker 1:05:59

Oh, I I for sure struggled the most with that. I can I can acknowledge that. I was, I was, I hope I was not a bad client, but I was definitely.

Speaker 1 1:06:07

You were not a bad client. It was, it was, you know, I'm not gonna say funny, but it was a little funny when you came and you were like, I got an ice cream cone.

Speaker 2 1:06:16

I yeah.

Speaker 1:06:18

I just remember the look on your face. You didn't even say anything. You just looked at me and blinked three times, like I don't know how to respond. We had fun. It was good.

Speaker 1 1:06:30

Is there anything you want to add by way of closing?

Speaker 1:06:33

I think all of you should write your books. Write the books that you have on your heart. Like, do it. Know that it's hard. You know, nothing worth it is easy, especially if you're trying to write something really exceptional. I think like it's worth it to get rid of all of the as much noise as possible, as much as the challenge around it as possible by having people help you so that you can focus all of your energy on just creating and writing the most beautiful, the best, like something that you at the end of the day, you want to look at and be like, I am so proud of that. Like I really put my all into that. That's what I can tell you I feel about my book. I feel so proud of the final product. And I know part of that was because I did not have to think about my writing speed. I did not have to think, like, I was not spending time on that. I could just spend time on the work itself. So I would tell people like, if you have a book in you to write, you should do it. Know it's a long process. And if you can, get your get the best support around you so you can you can write the best thing. Because a lot of the stuff that's shiny and exciting in the book world doesn't last if there's not a really good book behind it. All right, and you mentioned a paperback. Yeah, like that should that should be happening. Uh it's gonna be at least a year after the hardback release, so not yet, but that's what I'm saying. We continue on. We continue on.

Speaker 1 1:08:10

Thank you.

Speaker 1:08:12

Thank you.

Speaker 1 1:08:13

Okay, and thank you everyone for listening.