Why should we care about Disability Inclusion?

This is the first episode of our limited edition podcast. In this episode, we introduce you to Kris Foster, a disability inclusion champion, co-founder of two start-ups and set the stage for Project Nemo, a unique cross-industry project in the UK aimed at accelerating Disability Inclusion in the FinTech industry.

Hosted by: Prerna Goel and Whitney Simon

Transcript

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Host - Prerna Goel
Hello everyone, and welcome to Accessible Finance, a special podcast series dedicated to accelerating disability inclusion in the UK's FinTech industry. I am Prerna Goel, your host and a core team member of Project Nemo. Project Nemo is a grassroots level, Not for Profit initiative committed to revolutionising disability inclusion within FinTech. Our mission spans three key pillars: education, empowerment and showcasing. Education is all about raising awareness of the barriers and opportunities for FinTech to be more inclusive of individuals with disabilities and lived experiences. Empowerment is all about providing FinTech leaders, allies, advocates and those with lived experiences with resources and expertise to foster inclusive workplaces, products and services. And finally, Showcasing is all about highlighting and celebrating progress within the industry. So welcome to Accessible Finance. And I'm joined by my co-host, Whitney Simon.

Co-host - Whitney Simon  1:11 
Thanks, Prerna. Hi everyone. My name is Whitney Simon. I am the head of DE&I Consulting at Missive, a London based independent communications and PR consultancy that specialises in technology. I'm also a core team member of Project Nemo, supporting on all things PR, communications and of course, DE&I. 

Prerna  1:31 
Thanks Whitney. Really excited. Shall we start? 

Whitney  1:34 
Yeah, let's kick it off!

Prerna  1:37 
So today is our very first episode, and before we welcome our guest, let's delve into some statistics to understand why disability inclusion is crucial. The disabled community makes up one in five of the UK population, meaning nearly all of us are affected in some way. Only 17% of disabled people were born with their disabilities, 83% will acquire one in their lifetime. So that means any one of us can be impacted by disability at any point in time. So we can't just ignore it. 

Whitney  2:14
Absolutely not. 

Prerna  2:15
The purchasing power of disabled individuals and their households is a staggering £274 billion pounds, and this is called the Purple Pound. Now, that's insane, isn't it? 

Whitney  2:29 
That's in… I think when we joined or when we started Project Nemo, I was blown away just by how much it impacted people and just how much the commercial opportunity is when it comes to supporting people living with disabilities.

Prerna  2:42 
And you know, the flip side of this is only 1% of FinTech companies are registered as disability confident, and a mere 3% of websites are fully accessible. I just don't understand how people are not connecting the dots. You know, when you talk to people, when you look around and I have been in the FinTech industry for pretty much my whole career. Disability Inclusion is either completely absent or it ranks so low in the priority of DEI agendas that it just boggles my mind that nobody is talking about this or doing anything about it. 

Whitney  3:17
Definitely. 

Prerna   3:18
So, we clearly have a big issue, and this is where Project Nemo comes in. And I'm super excited about starting this podcast with one of the people who was the driving force behind Project Nemo, who is Kris Foster. So Kris Foster, he is from the disabled community, and he is dedicated at creating a more inclusive society. And he is a disabled co-founder of two ventures, so Project Nemo, obviously you're one of the co-founders and Open Book. So thank you so much for joining us, Kris, and welcome to our podcast.

Kris Foster  3:59 
Firstly, I want to say thank you Prerna and thank you Whitney, what an incredible team we are building, right? I am so privileged to be in this journey with you guys and how you guys have had a massive impact on me. Honestly. Yes, I am a co-founder of Open Book, a media outlet to showcase real representation for people with disabilities. It's okay that we have disabled people in front of the camera, but we don't really see disabled people really behind the camera. And that's something that was really, really important to me, because when we talk about organisations and representation, we don't see disabled people sitting at the table the way they should be, and that's something that's really, really important to me. So when we started Open Book in 2021 it was an initiative that we wanted to hear the disabled voice, if it was from the young girl who works at Sainsbury's to the creative director at Nike, and we've now essentially done over 170 interviews when we've really changed and transformed people's lives and actually connected dots with families, because there's many families that don't know which way to turn because because of fear and seeing inspiring people to turn around and see the possibilities is groundbreaking. And then obviously Project Nemo. Two years ago, when I started working within FinTech, I had the great privilege to have Joanne Dewar, who was my CEO, and we have just built this beautiful friendship from someone from the CEO level to the junior office engagement assistant, two different backgrounds, and yet we have just connected dots and formed this beautiful friendship to create Project Nemo. Then we’re going to delve into that in a little bit. Exciting times!

Whitney  5:56 
Well, thank you so much, Kris. I mean, it's always such a pleasure and an inspiration to work with you, along with the rest of the Project Nemo team. I think you touched on a little bit, kind of that personal connection to Project Nemo in your experience, which, as Prerna mentioned, was one of the driving forces behind this initiative. Can you tell us a bit more about kind of that journey from prior to Project Nemo, to getting to this point, and then also highlight some of the barriers that people with disabilities face in everyday life. For the sake of this podcast, speaking specifically - people with disabilities, what are the barriers they face when it comes to working in the Fintech industry?

Kris  6:37 
So I think we have to go a little bit further back for a moment. In 2016 I got diagnosed with cancer, one of the most trying times of my life, as you can well imagine. It then ended up in a result of, in my previous job, I lost my job to disability discrimination. Two years of fighting. It was a hard time for me, and I didn’t know which way to go. And in 2020 I sadly lost my case to the discrimination, really, to the due course of covid, where we couldn't really fight it. And it broke me. And I was on a real spiral to the point of not really knowing where I was going to go in my life. For those who may not know, I have Down syndrome, I'm also autistic, and I just couldn't see my life existing in anything I tried to do. I applied for over 204 jobs, and no one was really getting back to me. And it was just so, so difficult, and no one would give me an opportunity. When we started Open Book, I always turn around and say, I did it for selfish reasons. I wanted to hear successful stories and really just to kind of uplift me and to inspire me and to really bring me to have a voice again, and not really knowing where that was going to really take me. And Annette Evans, who is one of my dear friends, and had no idea that the organisation that she worked in, and said, “Look, Kris, I would love for you to see if we can get you an opportunity to work within our organisation.” I had absolutely nothing to do with FinTech. FinTech, I didn't even know what it was, if I'm to be frank, you know.

Prerna  8:24
[laughing] I’ve been working in it a long time and still have no idea!

Kris  8:31 
It was so for me, it was like, What is this? And I just remember getting the opportunity, and I didn't even have to go for an interview. I'm going to be totally honest with you, there was no interview for me. I went into the induction week, and in that I just sat there quietly, listening to everybody and thinking, What on earth am I here for? Not really understanding what my role was, but I was so thankful because they made up a role for me as a junior office engagement assistant, where I would set up the meeting rooms, I would help around in the office space, walk the clients up from downstairs, and brought them to the people that they needed to see. And I genuinely, hand on heart, thought I'd be there for about two weeks, like hand on heart, I thought they would never accept me working in the private sector. You know, who am I, this Down Syndrome guy walking into this beautiful office space, and in my back of my mind thinking, people are lovely, people are kind, but it won't last. And that was my masking. That was me putting myself down really, and not really fully, fathoming my opportunities and my growth in a company. But there was a moment, and this moment was a really turning point. You know, I never spoke with Joanne on a day to day basis. She was busy. She had an army, you know, in the office. And I just remember walking home on a Wednesday. It was in the summer of 2022, now, wow. And as I was walking out of the office, me and Joanne met eyes and history, the rest of history! And we started speaking for about 10 minutes, and she said something that was very poignant to me. She's like, Kris, I can't wait to see your growth within this organisation. Well, that just broke me. A person that's masking every day, and when he walked into the office space. At that moment, I remember walking out of Victoria House, going across the road into Bloomsbury Square Park, and I sat there, and I just cried. And I can just remember vividly thoughting for the first time, moment in my life that I felt safe working in that type of environment, and I've been there now, at the organisation now for just over two years, and I've had some incredible opportunities with work. We led a disability campaign within our organisation internally, what we really led conversations about disability inclusion within the company, and people who had disabled children in our organisation, then started to approach me and share their experiences, and then turn around and say, you know, Kris, I'm going to be honest with you that you've just given me hope for the possibilities of my own child. You don't know who you're sitting next to on a day to day basis, it's you know people, if they want to talk, they'll talk. If they don't want to talk, they won't talk. But for me, it really showed me who I am and my purpose working within this industry. And thought actually, when I had the opportunity to go out and speak at Pay360, to actually share my story, I went there with such a passion, saying, I want to see more people with disabilities within, working within FinTech, but what come after was even more amazing. Family members coming up and saying, My child, and really then opened me up and thinking, hold on, me and Jo, and we're looking at each other and thought, we need to go out there and really give hope to people within the industry, but also trying to create opportunities for people, more people with disabilities, like myself, to have that same opportunity and have that sense of purpose and feeling working within an organisation like this. We talk about statistics, right? I'll drop this one on you, and this is a real food for thought for many people, it's only been two years that I had private medical care. It's only been two years since I've had a private pension. I'm 45 years old. We've got to look at what does the future hold for people with disabilities, but also the harder conversation that we've not really spoke about yet for those with additional needs. And creating those opportunities and possibilities is amazing, because we know then what can really open up the eyes of the hearts of so many people, and say, actually, within this industry, they can do so much more. But also change the narrative and the perspective on how people with disabilities are seen. And Project Nemo is doing it, and I'm just so thankful and grateful that you guys are on board.

Prerna  13:04 
I don't know how to follow up with a question after that story. And you know, actually being involved in Project Nemo, it's just eye opening, how the moment you talk to anyone, or you open a little door, you see all these stories and all these experiences that pretty much everyone has around disability, and yet people somehow don't seem to be leaning into it, because, you know, and the more you speak to people, the more these statistics, which usually don't mean anything, become very real, right? Everyone is touched by it in some shape or form. So, Kris, it's amazing that you got this opportunity, and I'm so glad you got to meet Jo. She's an amazing, inspiring woman, and for those of you who don't know who Jo is, she's the other co-founder. She is a massive name in the FinTech industry, and she's essentially using her name and standing and network to drive this project forward, with amazing support from the industry. So you've been with the industry for two years now, and you said you've had an amazing experience. You've talked to a lot of different people in the company. What have you uncovered are the common misconceptions that people have about people with disability, especially in an industry which is so results oriented and numbers driven? So what were some of the key themes that you found that you had to work on potentially changing?

Kris  14:36 
You know, I said earlier on, it's to try and change the mindset of individuals, right? I use this example. When my parents were growing up, my father was left handed. They tried to correct him using his left, you know, it's a, you know, you've got to write with your right hand. And they used to put his left hand behind his back and really try and force him to do something that wasn't just natural. And it's the same, I think, even down with the conversation when it comes to disability, if you're not allowing individuals to be themselves, be their authentic selves, to really showcase grit and determination that can supersede any expectation of what people with disabilities can do. But to go back into your question, is that this is why we talk about the words like accessibility in any industry, but if you don't have people with it who are disabled actually sitting at the table, then really, what are we really talking about here? Because people speak for us, about us, in front of us, but yet it's never our voice. When that's why we're in this position in the first place, because everyone keeps getting it wrong. Or maybe just maybe, if you speak to people with lived experiences that actually can explain their situations and circumstances, maybe then people would then start getting it and making their product more accessible. That's better for everybody, right? Not just for people with disabilities. 

Whitney  16:09
Absolutely. 

Kris  16:10
And I think that's something that's so, so important.

Whitney  16:12 
That's incredibly powerful, Kris, it's so many nuggets and so many things that I think people don't think enough about in terms of, when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, it's not just what you can necessarily see. It's also not just kind of the things like race or gender and things like that. We do need to think about accessibility, and it's something that consistently, as Prerna you mentioned in the intro, is de-prioritized by organisations. But to your point, while it, people might not think it's marketable, there is huge profitability opportunities when it comes to recognizing, valuing people in the disabled community.

Prerna 16:53 
Absolutely and just on the topic of accessibility, it's not a privilege or a choice. It's a human right, it's a legal requirement. So most of the companies don't realise they're breaking law by not being accessible, you know. So it just boggles my mind, and I think that's where I'm so excited that Project Nemo can start, hopefully opening up some conversations and a bit of awareness on this topic. 

Whitney  17:20 
Absolutely. And Kris, you made a really powerful statement just now about how you would be in rooms and you would hear people talking about you, for you, but not actually asking you the questions. And what is, what you need, what people in the community need, and it makes me think about language. So I'd love to hear from you about how does language influence those perceptions of disability, and what are some best practices for our listeners in the wider community, for inclusive language use, so that it feels as though we're coming to the table and not speaking on your behalf, but actually engaging, so that we can be helpful, supportive. 

Kris  18:01 
Yeah, it's a great question. I think it all depends on your heart and if it's coming from a place of integrity. The reason why we're in this position is people are too scared to ask the question. No one wants to say things wrong. It's to that point of, well, let's just not say anything. So then nothing gets done. And one of the poignant points of my life, and it's funny, right? I look back in it in retrospect. So Stephen, who worked in the organisation, who worked in the head of HR, I remember when I first started, he said to me, Kris, can I be open and honest with you? And I was like, of course, he goes, we as an organisation might get this wrong, and you are probably, might get this wrong, but if we work together, we will be able to get this right. And I think that's so important, that open and honesty, saying, Look, I don't know, how can we help you, and how can we support you? And we're willing to hold your hand through this process so we can get it right. And I think that type of organisation is one of the reasons why I'm still there today, is because of that openness and that honesty and integrity of just simply asking those questions. Look, I get it right. We live in a society now with such a strong cancel culture, and it could be quite daunting and quite frightening, but if you come from a place of integrity, I think that alone will just really aid more conversations, just like we're having now. I am not afraid for anyone to turn around and say to me, Kris, could you explain to me what autism is, or could you explain to me what Down Syndrome is, or what is Additional Needs you know, or what was school like for you? I'm not gonna look at you and think to yourself, you are a horrible person for asking me that question. How awful are you? You know, no, I'm not going to do that. If you're saying it with a place of sincerity, we're going to have a conversation. And it's the only way that we can break the ice and really change the demographic of the conversation and make it more inclusive.

Prerna  20:17 
Yeah, it's one of the learnings I have had, is just being confident in asking the question and being aware that I don't know all the answers. Nobody knows all the answers.

Kris  20:29
I don’t!

Prerna  20:30
And language is such an interesting one, right? Because, before I got involved with the project, I didn't realise that it's okay to say disabled, it's okay to use that word. And there was a fear, there was an apprehension, there was concern that, am I okay say that and you get surrounded by these euphemisms in double quotes, a person of determination, special person. I came across this very interesting post on LinkedIn the other day, and a disabled person had written about, if I'm going to a restaurant and if I call up and ask for an accessible toilet, I can be a person of a lot of determination, but that's not going to help me enter the toilet. And I thought that was such a great example of let's call spade a spade. So just while you're building on this topic, and because we're talking about culture and cancel culture, what's in fashion, what's not in fashion, there is a lot of chatter, and rightly so, focus on neurodiversity. And you know, what is the difference, or what are the intersections? Like, how should people be thinking about this? I appreciate it's a complex topic for a short podcast, but it'll be good to understand your perspective

Kris  21:51 
So it comes under the umbrella of disability. It's such an open conversation because so many people think differently when it comes to their own neuro divergent selves. I mean, I was diagnosed with autism when I was child, so I've never really known any different. I mean, someone said to me, you know, a few months back, they goes Kris, what was life like before you were autistic? Or, like, how would I know, right? How would I know? I wouldn't know any different, you know. So it's sort of like, I look at that and think to myself, Well, I'm just authentically myself, and I don't know how to be anyone else. So I know it's different for different people who have got ADHD, or if they're dyslexic or they're dyspraxic, it's a neurological disorder, and I think for me, it's understanding the person who you're either working with or the family member that may get the diagnosis. I just think you just again, going back to what I said earlier on, you've just got to know the individual and make sure that you're around the right people that can actually help and aid yourself or the person who's maybe just being diagnosed. Because you're right. Prerna, it's such an open conversation at the moment, and the sad reality is that a lot of organisations will say that we've got a really great neurodiversity program within our organisation, and they think they tick the disabled box. That's not ticking the disabled box. And that's something that I always challenge organisations with. I won't mention any company names, but one within our industry said, Oh, we're doing amazing things with, with neuro diversity. I said, fantastic. What's your disability like in your organisation? And they're like, yeah, I just said, we've got great neurodiversity policies. Again, what is your disability program like within your organisation? And they can't answer that question because it's not even been thought of. And that's why I think with Project Nemo, we're changing the thinking and setting up the workshops that we've been setting up, and having very diverse people who are speaking and panel discussions. People are waking up and being like, Ah, I now see what Kris has been saying, but more importantly, what organisations can do for better to equip more people with disabilities.

Whitney  24:20 
Kris, you make me, like, think about how when we're thinking about DE&I from a broader perspective, recognizing that progress is fantastic, but we can't rest on our laurels. It's great if you have a neurodiversity program, but this journey, these conversations, are things that we need to continue building on every day, and there's going to be things where it's like we've made progress on this, but we still haven't made progress on that. And I think it's about working with organisations and helping them realise that this is a, an onward journey. There is no final destination. It's something that we're constantly going to have to challenge ourselves, and it's something working in the D&I space, I'm very well aware of that, there's only so much I know, and every day is going to be a new learning point and journey. But that is what makes this work so compelling and fulfilling, because every day I meet someone new, every day that I think a bit differently about a different facet of DE&I is another day that I become a better human being, a better DE&I practitioner, a better employee, colleague, and I'd hope that that's just what we're all striving for. Right?

Prerna  25:27 
Absolutely. We as a community have come a long way in bringing our 100% to our work, right? There was a time when we used to separate our personal and professional lives a lot more than we do today, right? We are now able to bring our authentic selves to the workplace in most cases, and especially in innovative industries like, and tech enabled industries like FinTech. And I think this is another element of bringing our authentic selves to work. It's not just about building great products and driving the P&L, absolutely, there is a big element of this, which is, we already talked about the numbers. There's a massive business opportunity. But there is just a fundamental need that we need to allow people to be their authentic selves in the workplace, and that can only happen when we include all elements of what makes us individually unique, right? And disability is one such element.

Kris  26:27 
Absolutely. Absolutely. Just to touch base on what you were saying just a moment ago about being your authentic selves within your workplace, I am one of the best actors in the world, and I say that because my masking is flawless, I should win an Oscar for it, right? 

Prerna  26:45
[Laughing] Maybe that's the next thing. 

Kris  26:47
[Laughing] Maybe that is the next. Maybe that's the next thing, right? Maybe I'm the next Brad Pitt. But no, but seriously, it's so draining and so tiring, you know, not being able to be yourself and having to put on this front and facade. And after work, literally going home with complete and utter anxiety and frustration and an emotional element. And I think one of the things that I'm so thankful for and grateful for is that the understanding and the care from those around me that have helped build me up to the man that I am right now.

Whitney  27:26 
Thank you. I mean, Kris, it's been an honour and a privilege to be able to work with you and to have this conversation really just like important things. And I hope when people listen to this, they can take away some new ways of thinking about how they can participate and support and lean in. And none of us can ever be on Jo's level, because she truly is a visionary, but at least try and because, as you said, that intention, that is an important element of this work. And this brings us to a really lovely, a bit bittersweet point. I think we're coming to the end of the podcast, but to wrap up, Prerna, can you tell us a bit more about what's coming next for Project Nemo in our podcast series?

Prerna  28:07 
Yes, absolutely. So, as we've been talking about Project Nemo is a 12 month program, and it's in full swing as we sit here today, and I'm sure by the time this episode is released, it will be even further along on its journey, it's super exciting. We are working through what we call a festival of inclusion, which is essentially a series of workshops over the next six months or so, where we want to peel the onion on numerous topics which are crucial for organisations to start their journey on disability inclusion, ranging from How do you do disability right, inclusion right, to what's the business case? Because we are talking about an industry which is not going to work on this unless they see the business case behind it, to what are the legal implications? How do we think about it, not just from a perspective of hiring the right, the more diverse and inclusive workforce, but also, how do you build products and services for customer base that is more diverse? So these workshops, they've already started. They're going to continue up until the end of the year, and at the back of each workshop, we want to produce a playbook, a toolkit, so the industry not only has the information, but also has access to experts and service providers who are already providing services to help them deliver these outcomes. Project Nemo doesn't want to reinvent the wheel. Project Nemo is a temporary campaign, and what we want to do is start the conversation and make the connections. This work is already happening out there. There are amazing service providers out there, both from the disabled community and otherwise, that are working hard to create a more inclusive and accessible world. And if we can just introduce them and bring them to the FinTech community, and the FinTech community knows where to start. We actually believe this can become a sustainable and scalable project, or it lives beyond being a project, and it actually just becomes the way the industry operates. And our podcast is essentially another way in which we want to take some of these learnings out to our listeners, because we know different people consume content in different ways. So we want to walk the talk. We don't want to just create ebooks, and, you know, digital content, we also want to create content which is, people can listen to, they can pull it as and when they want. So yeah, it's really exciting to be part of this project, and I genuinely hope, and I think one of the biggest takeaways for me for the conversation we've had with Kris today is, it's all about starting the conversation. It's about wanting to understand, and it all starts with that. And that's exactly what Jo has done, and she's opened the floodgates for all of us. 

Kris  31:00
Absolutely. 

Prerna  31:01
So yeah, that's it really.

Whitney  31:03 
Amazing. Well, thank you, Prerna. It is really exciting. I guess, I just want to say thank you to Prerna, my incredible co host, for facilitating this conversation and just being a wonderful partner in arms in terms of on Project Nemo, moving this initiative forward. But also just want to give a huge thank you to you, Kris, for joining us today and helping us start this conversation and sharing your experiences and sharing your insights. It's been incredibly insightful and just really given us a lot of great things to think about as we continue this conversation. And then just want to say thank you to everyone for tuning in to the first episode of Accessible Finance, where we unpack the layers of disability and inclusion. We do hope that you'll join us again next time, as we explore best practices in disability inclusion, from language sensitivity to combating tokenism and ableism and moving beyond check boxes. We'll discuss preventing purple-washing and breaking down barriers to initiating this critical journey. So if you liked our episode, do please share with others in your organisation and network, and we look forward to talking to you soon.

Prerna  32:09 
Awesome. Thank you so much. Whitney, Thank you, Kris, 

Kris  32:13
Thank you.