473 | The Visionary/Integrator Trap That Keeps Contractor Businesses Stuck: Mike Paton on EOS Done Right

Gathering The Kings ran EOS for six months and saw almost no growth. Then in October, Chaz, Jake, and the team got crystal clear on who owned what in the accountability chart. By January, the business had doubled. They had not changed their product, their marketing, or their team. They got clear on their lanes and let everyone run.

That is the episode in one story.

Mike Paton has been implementing EOS for 17 years. He co-authored Get A Grip and Process with Gino Wickman, succeeded Gino as Visionary of EOS Worldwide, and has seen every way a company can get EOS right and get it wrong. In this conversation with Chaz Wolfe and Jake Isaacs, Mike breaks down the most common self-implementation mistakes, what actually separates a great integrator from a mediocre one, why your team already knows whether you are a visionary or not, and why the visionary-integrator relationship is the most important partnership in any growing business.

Jake Isaacs, who has served as integrator for multiple companies and is Chaz's integrator at GTK, co-hosts the episode. His perspective makes this one of the most practical EOS conversations you will find anywhere.

Key Takeaways:

• The number one self-implementation mistake is the smorgasbord approach: picking the EOS tools you like and skipping the ones that feel hard. The accountability chart is almost always what companies skip first. It is almost always the reason they are not growing.
• A vision without traction is hallucination. You need to know who is accountable for what before your VTO means anything.
• You are almost certainly more intimidating to your team than you think. About 50 percent of the time, the leader of the organization is the problem. An outside facilitator lets you participate as an equal alongside your team instead of inadvertently suppressing honest input.
• Gino Wickman told Mike he was not hardwired as an integrator. He was a visionary who was capable of integrating. There is a difference. Most entrepreneurs who score high on both in an assessment are not ambidextrous. They just know the right answers.
• The highest and best use test: stop asking what an assessment says about you. Ask what role will bring you the most joy and add the most value to the business. Then go do that.
• The four traits every great integrator must have: focus, discipline, comfort with accountability including upward accountability to the visionary, and willingness to have tough conversations and get in the muck.
• The visionary-integrator relationship is a partnership. It is not the integrator chasing the visionary around with a broom. When it is right, it is like a great marriage where both people can be fully themselves and together become something unstoppable.
• If you are hiring an integrator and you cannot picture them being better than you at execution and happier than you doing it every day, you are making a mistake.
• To hire growth-oriented people, Mike asks two things: do you have strong beliefs you are willing to share, and what would you do if evidence challenged those beliefs? And: what do you do in your free time to keep your saw sharpened?
• You can keep bringing file folders of work home and lamenting that your car is first in the lot and last to leave. Or you can get help. Those are your two options.

If you are a contractor business owner doing $1M+ and you feel stuck in the day-to-day, we built GTK for you.

Through peer mastermind and 1:1 coaching, we help you:

• increase profit
• install real systems
• build a team that runs the business
• get your time back

Visit www.gatheringthekings.com for information on how to apply.

Connect with Chaz Wolfe (Host):

Website

Facebook

Instagram

LinkedIn

YouTube 

Connect With Jake Isaacs (Co-Host): 

Website

Facebook

LinkedIn

Instagram

YouTube

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Mike Paton: You can keep 

bringing file folders full of work home or going to the office seven days a week 

and lamenting the fact that your car is the first in the parking lot and the last 

to leave every night or you can get help. [00:00:14] Chaz Wolfe: Do you feel like your 

systems and processes in your business needs

(00:14) some work? Have you ever thought about using the 

entrepreneur operating system to gain traction in your business, but you're not sure how 

to implement it successfully. Welcome to driven to win. This is the show that helps 

entrepreneurs who want to win in all areas and aren't afraid to do the work to get there.

(00:30) [00:00:32] Chaz Wolfe: I'm your host, 

Chas Wolf. My mission on this show is to help entrepreneurs learn to grow and win in 

all areas, business, family, health, faith, and lifestyle. We have an exciting addition 

also to this episode. Joining me as co host is Jake Isaacs, the COO and integrator at 

Gathering the Kings. Jake brings a wealth

(00:46) of experience and insight, making him the 

perfect co host for today's discussion. [00:00:54] Chaz Wolfe: Welcome [00:00:54] Jake: Jake. What's up everyone. 

Happy to be here and share my perspective as I've served as an integrator for 

several corporations in my past. Chaz, I'm also the number one fan of this podcast. So 

co hosting with you is a real special treat. This

(01:03) conversation is going to be incredible. 

I'm looking forward to getting into it. [00:01:12] Chaz Wolfe: That's right, Jake, 

because we've got Mike Patton on the show today. He's a true expert in the EOS system. He's 

co authored two books in the traction library, including get a grip and process. He's 

here today to help you transform your

(01:21) business from chaos to a well oiled, 

profitable machine. We discuss if you should hire an implementer for EOS, 

common mistakes when implementing EOS, And Mike also shares the four traits all 

effective integrators have in common. [00:01:39] Chaz Wolfe: Plus, stay tuned to the 

end so you can get behind the curtain and hear

(01:39) Jake and I share our thoughts on the interview. 

If you have ever wanted to bring more structure, organization, and growth to your 

business, this episode is for you. [00:01:51] [00:01:53] Chaz Wolfe: We are ready to rock 

and roll here. we have been anticipating, this moment. We've got a lot 

of really cool guests, but EOS

(01:56) as a system is, is something that a 

lot of our clients are on GTK is on. [00:02:04] Chaz Wolfe: there's, there's self 

implementing there's obviously implementers. I'm sure you probably have a little bit 

of a formula of like when someone should self implement versus when they 

should just kind of buck up and.

(02:12) [00:02:15] Chaz Wolfe: Hire an 

implementer. What do you see as being the value for each one or 

maybe the right formula? Right. [00:02:47] Mike Paton: the only advice I give 

somebody who's intent on self implementing who believes self implementation is a good fit is 

twofold. First, please bring your leadership

(02:51) team in to see me. There's no charge for this. 

For 90 minutes. Let me paint a picture for you of what the end of the implementation 

journey is supposed to look and feel like. [00:03:09] Mike Paton: So you have the box top 

of a jigsaw puzzle, right? If you don't know what the puzzle is supposed to look like when 

you put it all together, it's impossible. Try,

(03:14) try doing a jigsaw puzzle with the back 

pieces, the back of the pieces up instead of the other way around. Right? And, and then 

the second thing is be aware that you are aware. [00:03:30] Mike Paton: More likely to 

influence what the people on your team say, think, and do than you believe you are. The 

vast majority of my clients who own their

(03:39) businesses or are the CEO or whatever, You 

know, head person in their leadership team can't imagine that they would intimidate 

any other member of their leadership team. [00:03:58] Mike Paton: And it is just really hard 

to make important change happen as the leader of an organization, because about 50 percent 

of the time we're the problem. And what,

(04:04) what an outside facilitator does. 

is two things. It allows you as the leader to participate alongside your 

leadership team members as an equal, which is good for you because it's 

really hard to hat switch all the time. [00:04:28] Chaz Wolfe: Silence. Okay. [00:04:47] Mike Paton: and so on and so forth.

(04:34) [00:04:48] Mike Paton: So if you're worried 

at all about those. Two things when you're contemplating self implementation, just 

go see a professional EOS implementer in your region. Do that 90 minute meeting and 

then have an open and honest conversation with your leadership team at the end 

of that 90 minute meeting and with

(05:05) the implementer still in the room about 

whether or not you're likely to be more successful with you leading the charge or 

some other team member leading the charge. [00:05:17] Mike Paton: or hiring somebody 

else and whatever decision you make at that point is a great decision. And I've seen 

self implementing companies do Do great

(05:21) work as long as they know where they're 

going on their journey and they've got Somebody like me available if they 

get stuck or confused or frustrated. [00:05:35] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, I think that, 

that, that picture that you gave, is really, really healthy. Both ways. I was just 

talking to a client actually just like

(05:38) three days ago about this exact thing. And 

I said it a slight bit different. And I said that. If the reason why you would hire the 

implementer is because if, as the owner, you want to experience it also, rather 

than being the experience to be in the experience, to be able to show up to the 

meeting and not have to have prepared for it.

(05:55) [00:05:59] Chaz Wolfe: And, and be running it 

is a totally different experience as opposed to having to be the guy or the gal. so I love 

the other additions that you gave to that. [00:06:09] Mike Paton: Yeah, cool. [00:06:10] Jake: The other thing about 

that I think is as visionaries, right, you've got all of these different ideas and 

the inability to necessarily make all of those

(06:13) ideas come to fruition. So when you come to 

your leadership team with this idea of EOS, it's just one of those other things that Charlie 

Brown's teacher has been talking about, right? [00:06:28] Jake: It's like, how seriously 

are we going to take this? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, well, Mike, when, when you look at 

some of the businesses that you've known have self

(06:33) implemented, are there common mistakes that 

you see in this self implementation process? [00:06:44] Mike Paton: well, you mentioned one 

of them, right? The smorgasbord approach to using the foundational tools of EOS, right? And the 

foundational tools are the VTO or vision traction organizer, the accountability chart, rocks, the 

two part meeting pulse, including quarterlies and

(06:54) annuals and weekly level tens, +and then a great 

scorecard cascaded throughout the organization. [00:07:08] Mike Paton: And so, you know, when 

I say to a client, well, you know, What's your accountability chart look like? And they say, 

well, we don't, we haven't done the accountability chart yet. Well, you know, that's what we do 

first, because a vision without traction is

(07:16) hallucination. And so in order to gain traction, 

you need to clarify who's accountable for what. [00:07:28] Mike Paton: And when you're crafting 

a VTO, for example, and we're not real clear on who's accountable for marketing and 

sales. And the visionary keeps saying, we're going to be a hundred billion 

dollars in five years. You know,

(07:37) the people in the room aren't 

really going to say, Hey, you know, I can maybe get you to 400 million boss, but 

a hundred billion in five years, you're nuts. [00:07:50] Mike Paton: And so it's 

those kinds of things and, you know, not running level 10s or thinking you can do it 

every month instead of every week. And, you know,

(07:53) it's the, the, the, what you learn after 17 years 

of EOS implementation is you learn the tweaks that aren't dangerous and you learn what's 

going to kill you. And the biggest one is. [00:08:15] Mike Paton: A lack of simplification 

and over complication of the work. I've seen 15 page vision traction organizers and for 

your, for your listeners and viewers who

(08:21) aren't steeped in EOS, Terminology. The VTO 

is usually a two page strategic planning document that clarifies the company's 

vision and plan to achieve that vision. [00:08:39] Mike Paton: And so, you 

know, three pages every once in a while, there's an issues list, that's a little 

too long to fit on page one or page two,

(08:42) but, but 15 pages is just somebody vomiting all 

over, you know, a word document until everybody's going to be confused. And so those are the 

kinds of things you have to be careful about. [00:09:00] Jake: Yeah. The, the, responsibilities 

chart is such an important thing. when we self implemented EOS ourselves, there was three 

of us. So the leadership team was But then

(09:06) there were three employees, right? And 

so we, we didn't necessarily think that that was the thing that we should start 

with because it's just the three of us, [00:09:19] Mike Paton: Yeah, 

how hard could this be? [00:09:21] Chaz Wolfe: Yep. [00:09:21] Jake: ran for about six 

months and saw very little growth

(09:21) inside of the business because 

we weren't clear on the roles. [00:09:28] Jake: And then last October, we were all together and got very clear about what 

our three roles were. And from October to January, we doubled the size of the business just 

because of, we now knew what lanes we needed to run in. And could be free to do 

what we needed to do inside of those lanes.

(09:41) [00:09:46] Mike Paton: Yeah. And I don't 

know if this is what happened to you. And I'd love to hear back from the two of you. 

But, you know, because we're steeped in what we call the structure first people second 

approach to building an accountability charge. What we do is ask the leadership team 

to say, to get from where we are today,

(09:59) to where you want to be six to 12 months from now, 

what are the major functions of this business? [00:10:09] Mike Paton: And, and, and those major 

functions in the simplest accountability chart, most of my clients would come up with would be 

one leader in charge of marketing and sales, one leader in charge of operations, One 

leader in charge of finance or finance

(10:20) and administration and then an integrator and a 

visionary if there is one in your organization. [00:10:32] Mike Paton: And so it's five seats and 

so with three people if that's the accountability chart you come up with now you have to decide 

who's in which seat. And in many organizations that have three people in it, the visionary 

feels like he or she is in every one of those

(10:43) five seats. And you and there are two admins that 

were just waiting around to be told what to do. [00:10:54] Mike Paton: And so what that 

painting that picture does is, you know, Is help you realize you can't grow in scale. If 

that's the way you're going to, you know, structure your business, a genius and a 

thousand followers doesn't work a genius

(11:05) and five followers probably works maybe 25, but 

at some point you're going to be beyond your. [00:11:17] Mike Paton: Capacity to delegate 

to a team of people who are looking to only you for direction. And so that's the joy of 

this work. Like when I explain it that way, I'm sure everybody's like, Oh, that makes 

sense. But man, when it was the three of you,

(11:26) you're just sitting in the room going, I 

don't know, there's a bunch of stuff to do. [00:11:33] Mike Paton: I'm just going to 

grab a shovel and start digging and you do the same. And then you're whacking each 

other on the forehead with your shovels and throwing dirt in one another's eyes. 

And it's, God, it's really frustrating.

(11:40) [00:11:45] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, I want to 

respond to our scenario, but I want your, I want your feedback on it because you're a hundred 

percent right in that moment, you know, it was, it was me shoveling by myself with, and then an 

assistant. And then, you know, we bring in Jake and there's a couple of other assistants is really 

that team was three and we were just kind of all.

(11:58) [00:12:03] Chaz Wolfe: Doing it, we were 

all shoveling. And so to your point, creating the accountability chart, even 

so much so to where it was like, okay, Chaz is a visionary, but he's also the head of 

sales and marketing now, and that's cool because Chaz has a scorecard and there's certain KPIs 

that he has to hit and he's reporting to Jake.

(12:15) [00:12:20] Chaz Wolfe: The integrator [00:12:22] Mike Paton: and Jake's, but Jake 

still reports to Chaz as the visionary. And some people are like, wait a second, 

what? But when you write it out on paper, it makes perfect sense. I'm just, I'm 

just wearing two hats. What would you say to that? if I'm not taking care of my 

responsibilities and accountabilities, right?

(12:31) [00:12:37] Mike Paton: And that's what 

you discovered in that moment of, Hey, the make it up. Person has an unlimited filter 

on making shit up. But when it comes to making things happen, we're a little less gifted in 

this area, and we rely on other people to do it. And so every once in a while, if you have to 

make things happen in an organization with three

(12:55) people in it, it helps to have an accountability 

partner, and Jake served that role for you. [00:13:04] Mike Paton: So I think that's a 

fabulous story, and I would hope all your self implementing members use that thinking. 

to help embrace the accountability chart, even if they only have one, two or three 

people because it clear it. And if the

(13:16) other thing it did, Is it probably 

put you in a position to say, Hey, someday we're going to have somebody other 

than me in the sales and marketing seat. [00:13:29] Chaz Wolfe: Exactly. [00:13:30] Mike Paton: And so now in that role, 

you're not only thinking about how you can be effective, but you're thinking about maybe putting 

a process in place that is going to help a new

(13:34) person succeed without the growing pains that they 

would succeed with if they started from scratch. And it, it just has you think about your business 

differently when you're accountable for something. [00:13:51] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, I agree. 

And actually I think for that reason, because of that, you know, never ending well 

of golden BS, that we were talking about as

(13:54) visionaries, because of that, actually most of 

the time we don't. Don't recommend people self implement. It's not like we're experts on EOS 

by any means at all, but we have clients that. [00:14:07] Chaz Wolfe: Come across the book or 

we, we talk about it in a mastermind setting or something. And it's like, Oh, that's really 

interesting. Maybe they read the book and then

(14:10) they've got questions like, well, what did you 

do? How, what have you seen? And I think our experience one being so small to being both 

of us, kind of have the integrated, I'm, I'm, we're going to get to this here in a second, 

but I scored high on both and Jake scoring super high on an integrator is like, we felt 

like we were capable, but for most visionaries.

(14:27) [00:14:32] Chaz Wolfe: I think the implementation 

process that you guys have is the way to go, because it's the only way that's really going 

to hold to it because the visionaries are, like you said, kind of just a never ending flow of 

thing, not necessarily accomplishing or checking. [00:14:44] Mike Paton: Yeah, you got that 

right. And, and I, you know, the, the,

(14:43) the funny behind the scenes story here is 

that when I was trained for the first time, 17 years ago, I self identified as an integrator 

and I said that to Gino about three or four years into my journey. And he goes, he just started 

laughing. He couldn't even talk to me, like [00:15:07] Chaz Wolfe: bud.

(15:06) [00:15:08] Mike Paton: 15 minutes, he's laughing. [00:15:09] Mike Paton: And I'm like, Hey, come 

on. I've accomplished a lot in my career and blah, blah, blah. He goes, Pete. You're not 

hardwired like an integrator, dude. You're capable of integrating, but you're hardwired as 

a visionary. And, and, and that is true of almost

(15:19) all entrepreneurs is that when we're passionate 

about something and we're determined, in fact, if you want to motivate me and Chas, this is 

going to resonate with you, I'm almost certain. [00:15:37] Mike Paton: Tell me something 

isn't possible. Like that'll really get me going. Okay. So Jake, if you 

want to really fire jazz up,

(15:40) there's your tip for today. It's going to be 

a long week, buddy, but that's, you know, so, [00:15:51] Chaz Wolfe: sleep. [00:15:52] Jake: Yeah. [00:15:53] Mike Paton: There's a misconception 

in the world that the only thing that qualifies you as a visionary is if you score really high in 

this assessment and really low in this assessment.

(15:59) [00:16:04] Mike Paton: It's not just not 

right. Okay. You, you can get data points that confirm where you're going to be most happy 

and satisfied and effective. But those are just all data points. And a lot of people can be 

effective in roles. They're not hardwired to be great at and to love every day. and and then 

the other thing that happens, Jake, is a lot of

(16:21) integrators out there feel like because they're 

an integrator, they're not allowed to have vision. [00:16:32] Mike Paton: Well, I hope you have 

vision. And, you know, we specifically hired my integrator looking for someone who's hardwiring 

was, you know, able to look into the future because if, if she was too execution oriented and 

not, you know, we were early stage entrepreneurial

(16:44) company, we didn't need a. You know, chief 

operating officer from a 5, 000 employee company. [00:16:58] Mike Paton: That's just trying to 

eat another 0. 1 percent of net profit out of the organization. We needed an executor with 

some vision. And so it is a spectrum. Every visionary is different. Integrators come with a 

lot of different qualities. What integrators have

(17:09) to have is focus, discipline, a comfort with 

being accountable and driving accountability, even upwards to the owner or the visionary, 

okay,an ability to have tough conversations and get in the muck rather than, you know, a lot of 

visionaries want somebody else to fix the problem. [00:17:37] Chaz Wolfe: Bye

(17:37) [00:17:41] Mike Paton: and there's a 

problem with being caused by two of them, the visionaries looking around for somebody 

else to fix the problem, anybody else. And so that's that whole visionary integrator thing. 

It's a spectrum and get your data points. [00:17:57] Mike Paton: And ask your team. 

That's the other thing. When I have this

(17:56) conversation in that 90 minute meeting, and the 

visionary says, Yeah, I'm not really sure if I'm a visionary or an integrator. 85 percent of the 

time, the rest of the team just starts laughing. [00:18:10] [00:18:10] Chaz Wolfe: well, let's, 

let's get your opinion here. I told you I'd bring this back up, 

but, on a data point here,

(18:15) Jake was 90 integrator, 45 visionary, 

and I was 94 integrator, 97 visionary. [00:18:24] Chaz Wolfe: What are 

your thoughts on that combo? [00:18:26] Mike Paton: you're 

better at taking tests than Jake is. [00:18:30] Jake: God, if 

that ain't the truth, Mike, [00:18:33] Mike Paton: my answer. 

You knew the right answer to both.

(18:32) [00:18:36] Chaz Wolfe: That's [00:18:36] Mike Paton: you gave the right 

answer. Right? So, so that's, that's it. [00:18:42] Mike Paton: And, 

and, and that's what, what, what I would be saying to you is quit looking 

at the test. Just what do you wanna be, what's the highest and best, 

it's like real estate, right?

(18:49) [00:18:52] Mike Paton: If you're a real estate 

developer, you're constantly obsessing about, for this piece of ground. I could do anything with 

it. It could be a golf course, it could be a farm, it could be an apartment complex. It could 

be a strip center. It could be a commercial office building. What's the highest 

and best use of this piece of ground.

(19:04) [00:19:09] Mike Paton: The piece of ground 

isn't taking a fricking assessment test. Piece of ground is just a piece of ground. 

What's the highest and best use. What's going to bring you joy. What's going to add the 

most value to the business. Now go do that. [00:19:23] Mike Paton: So for those 

of you out there who are visionaries

(19:23) watching this and you're wondering what kind 

of integrator you need, you need an integrator. [00:19:31] Mike Paton: You feel that way 

about that they're going to be better than you at execution. and happier than you when 

they're driving execution. And if you hire somebody that's affordable, but you don't feel 

that way about them, you're making a mistake.

(19:41) [00:19:46] Mike Paton: If I hire 

the right partner, guy or gal, and they'll do it with because of the visionary 

integrator partnership is a partnership. It isn't one person telling another person what to do. 

It isn't one person chasing the visionary around with a broom and a And a trash can, like you're 

following a trained monkey act in the circus.

(20:00) [00:20:07] Mike Paton: It's we're a partnership 

and I'm going to leverage the integrators, skill sets, and disciplines to do this 

kind of work. And that's going to free me up to be the most valuable visionary. I 

can possibly be to this organization. Ah, it's like the right marriage. You know, when 

you're working really hard at a marriage.

(20:20) [00:20:25] Mike Paton: Where there's just 

a mismatch. And then one day you discover a great marriage where you can be you and 

the integrator can be the integrator. And together you make a dynamic duo that 

is unstoppable. Oh, that's what I want your. Viewers to think about and fantasize 

about and go make happen in their business.

(20:42) [00:20:48] Mike Paton: And you're 

right, Jake, it might take two or three attempts. You might get it wrong, 

but keep trying until you get it right. [00:20:55] Chaz Wolfe: Silence. [00:21:23] Mike Paton: yeah, it's a boy 

interesting. So I'm going to speak to how Gino found his integrator. And then I'll 

speak to how, he found his successor, me,

(21:26) and then I'll speak to how I worked with Gino 

and Don to find my integrator to replace Don, who was Gino's integrator. So, Gino 

found his integrator by sharing with all of his friends and confidants in his 

network that he was looking for the one. [00:21:49] Mike Paton: And he had a very clear 

definition of the core values and the attributes

(21:49) of the successful person. And he, he got dozens 

of names and Don ended up being the top person on the list, but when they met initially, 

Gino said to him, Don, I don't think you're cut out for this. Okay. He didn't have that 

feel and Don said, let me prove it to you. [00:22:15] Mike Paton: And so Don went out, 

replicated all of Gino's results as an EOS

(22:15) implementer to demonstrate that he had what 

it took to not only be successful in the role, but to teach other people who are different from 

Gino, how to be successful in the role. Okay. So he earned his role as the integrator. through hard 

work, discipline, and demonstrating with results. [00:22:38] Mike Paton: Okay. So fast 

forward to 2015, Gino and Don started

(22:38) working together in about 2005. So this 

was about 10 years later when I took over, Gino had executed a three year succession plan 

to find his successor as a visionary and to, set me up to be successful. Okay, so that's 

how that happened. And it just so happened that I was a member of the community, 

that he tapped on the shoulder and said,

(23:04) Hey, you're one of the people I 

think would be great at this role. [00:23:12] Mike Paton: But there 

was a very thorough vetting process, some tough and honest conversations about 

things that I needed to do differently and better. And hopefully they resonated with 

me and, and will last me a lifetime. So,

(23:19) and then when I, when Don was ready to step away 

and return to his life as a grandfather and, and an EOS full time EOS implementer, 

I went through a 12 month period of thinking about what kind of integrator 

we needed, because it was different. [00:23:43] Mike Paton: full time person and 

ultimately hired,executive retained executive

(23:42) search firm, specializing in integrator 

search headquartered here in the Twin Cities that happened to be a client of mine. 

And, and they exhaustively talked to Gino, me, Don, and the rest of our leadership team to get a 

sense of what the ideal candidate would look like. [00:24:09] Mike Paton: And then we went through 

a process and hired the best candidate from the

(24:09) group. We had four really qualified people 

that we felt confident could do great work. But Kelly Knight, I'm grateful to her every day 

for the value she brought to our partnership. [00:24:24] [00:24:24] Jake: That's awesome. So 

there's a search form in Minneapolis that will specifically go out and 

find an integrator for the business is

(24:28) [00:24:32] Mike Paton: Yeah. 

Yeah, my friend Mike Frommelt, originally called Keystone Search, now Strategic [00:24:39] Chaz Wolfe: in [00:24:43] Mike Paton: friend and client 

of, EOS and they've got, they've got a new business. I'll have to get you 

the details for the show notes. [00:24:51] Mike Paton: Awesome.

(24:51) [00:24:52] Chaz Wolfe: show notes. [00:24:52] Jake: Very good. Appreciate 

it. one of our clients was. Commenting last night on Facebook. He, you 

know, he took a screen grab of, of traction and said he's reading it and he's 

excited about it and he's into chapter two. And so I just commented like, Hey, I actually 

we're, we're interviewing Mike Patton tomorrow.

(25:04) [00:25:09] Jake: What question would you like me 

to ask him? And so, his response. So this, this question is for George. what are some questions 

that you would ask an individual to find out if they're open minded and they're ready to grow? 

Whether it's a new employee or a current employee. [00:25:26] Mike Paton: Yeah. The first, Oh, 

if he's interviewing candidates, they're

(25:26) open minded and ready to grow. Hmm. Oh, is that 

a great question? So. From an open mindedness, I might ask about, any strong beliefs they 

have. Do you have any strong beliefs about people or the world or the way to run a successful 

business that you'd be willing to share with me? [00:25:56] Mike Paton: Right. And 

I'd want them to have strong beliefs,

(25:56) but then I'd probably ask a follow-up 

question and, and say, what would you do if you were confronted with evidence that 

that strong belief might be misleading? Might, might be a way I would ask that question in 

terms of the ready to grow. I always ask, what would you do in your, what do you do in 

your free time to keep your saw sharpened?

(26:17) [00:26:22] Mike Paton: How do you, how 

do you make yourself better? If they're, if I know they have kids because 

it's come up in the conversation, I know you're not allowed to ask those questions 

anymore, but, but if it's already come up in the conversation, I say, you know, what do you do 

to promote learning and growth and betterment?

(26:33) [00:26:38] Mike Paton: In your family, you 

know, like, like, I just want to know what they're doing. If they, if they say, Oh 

no, I don't read books or, you know, I, what do you mean? Sharpen the saw? 

That's, that's not a great answer. [00:26:51] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, 

those are some indicators, Right?

(26:51) [00:26:53] Jake: You co wrote, 

get a grip with Gino. How did you decide that this needed to be a 

part of the library, the EOS library? [00:27:01] Mike Paton: One of our 

motivations was writing a story that would be compelling enough that a 

visionary wants to read to the end. and, and so that was one of the motives. We also 

wanted to illustrate the proper. cadence of

(27:10) how a professional EOS implementer teaches 

the tools that are presented in Traction. [00:27:22] Mike Paton: It is presented in a 

different order in the book Traction because it's an academic study rather 

than a chronological study. And [00:27:30] Mike Paton: so that was another one. [00:27:32] Jake: Well, it's so funny 

to hear, you know, that you guys were

(27:32) [00:27:34] Jake: both fans of Pat's because 

both Chaz and I love Pat's books as well. and so when I was reading, get a grip, I was like, 

man, if I would have read this before traction, I think it would have clicked in my brain 

a little bit better. As a young boy, I used to grow up reading those 

choose your own adventure books.

(27:48) [00:27:51] Jake: And so I could, I could read 

the same book 15 times. and, and when I read traction for the first time, it was like, Oh, 

I understand what I'm supposed to do here, but like, I don't know what the story 

is for our business. And so in reading, get a grip and getting to like, Walk through 

this fictional turnaround, with the company

(28:07) that you guys wrote about, it just really made 

it all clear to me on how to move forward. [00:28:19] Mike Paton: Thank you. it's a, it's 

a blessing every time I hear somebody say that. And that, that was part of the goal. And the other 

part of the goal is to help our clients understand that the pain and frustration and worry. And, 

you know, dislike for people they used to love,

(28:28) you know, all those things are normal that 

if you're running an entrepreneurial company, emotion is going to happen and 

it doesn't make you wrong or bad. [00:28:44] Mike Paton: It just means you've 

got an issue and you've got to figure out how to resolve that issue. And so that's 

really what we were trying to. teach is,

(28:47) hey, in real life , this is 

the way this stuff works. So, [00:28:57] Chaz Wolfe: All right. I got a 

unique question here for you. I like to ask most of our podcast guests this, but, I'm a 

huge believer. In fact, it's, it's the, it's the backbone of gathering the Kings, in chapter 10 

of thinking, grow rich. Napoleon Hill talks about

(29:03) the mastermind principle and two or more minds 

working in harmony unto something, specific. [00:29:12] Chaz Wolfe: and so the integrator 

visionary relationship is an obvious mastermind. Like we've just got done talking about that, 

the marriage, but how else have you used this principle in just your journey of being an 

entrepreneur, to be successful or to get leverage?

(29:20) [00:29:25] Mike Paton: Yeah, well, my marriage 

to Kate is, the best mastermind I'm a part of by a mile. She's the best person I know 

and has helped turn me into a much better person than I was before I met her. but 

you know, Gino, Don, and I formed what we call inside the EOS implementer community as 

the original T group, T stands for traction.

(29:40) [00:29:46] Mike Paton: Three 

implementers working together to hold one another accountable to being 

great implementers. Right? And so now there are literally hundreds of T groups in 

the U. S. Implementer community that have between three and eight members. and they meet 

regularly and drive accountability and problem

(30:00) solved together where we have a slack channel 

with all kinds of different channels on it. [00:30:11] Mike Paton: And People are 

constantly posting emergency questions and I'm going into a session and this 

is going to happen. And so, you know, Napoleon Hill and Think and Grow Rich is probably 

the book I've heard Gino quote more than,

(30:18) everything except Dan Sullivan's stuff, Pat 

Lencioni's stuff, and Vern Harnish's stuff. [00:30:31] Mike Paton: So, you know, it, 

we're, we're all over that too. And I applaud what you're doing and, you know, And, 

you know, people, an unfortunate percentage of the people who are running entrepreneurial 

companies need to be coerced into joining

(30:40) mastermind groups or finding peer groups 

where they're not going to feel so alone. [00:30:51] Mike Paton: And they're 

going to realize that everybody else is going through the same stuff. And. 

feel better about reaching out to get help. And so I applaud that. And I'm 

grateful to you guys for doing that work.

(30:58) [00:31:02] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. I 

appreciate that. just a thought there on that emotion. Like I know 

the entrepreneur feels isolated. They, they have the weight as we say it, or the 

weight of the crown, but there's that gap, what you just described of like, ah, I'll 

just do it by myself or I'll just carry

(31:14) it a little bit longer. Or maybe there's 

not like a full acknowledgement of that. [00:31:21] Chaz Wolfe: I'm isolated or that 

I'm alone, or that maybe even feels weak and joining up with other people just to like get 

together and talk about problems. Doesn't, I don't know if I see that solving my 

problems. I just see it as maybe a big

(31:30) group of friends. What would you say to that 

person? That's kind of stuck in that gap, [00:31:38] Mike Paton: Yeah. What I hear more often to be candid with you is I 

just don't have the time for that. [00:31:43] Chaz Wolfe: right? [00:31:45] Mike Paton: And, you know, there's a 

cartoon that gets passed around the implementer

(31:44) community. A lot. You guys probably see this 

in your network as well of the. salesperson with the first wheel talking to a group 

of three cavemen pushing a wheelbarrow. [00:32:01] Mike Paton: That's 

got a square wheel on it. [00:32:03] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. [00:32:03] Mike Paton: He says, Hey, I 

think I can help you. And they say, Hey,

(32:03) we're too busy right now. Right? Like, like 

give it a shot. You, you might find that it, it frees up time that participating in a group 

of other like minded people, one question, and you're solving three issues that are what you 

would have struggled with for the next 90 days. [00:32:23] Mike Paton: So I just say, 

just try it. give it a shot. Trust,

(32:23) call the person you trust most, who you 

know is in some kind of a mastermind or, or peer group and, and ask them 

for a recommendation or two. [00:32:37] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, that's good. 

I think that the, the, the ultimate piece there is what you just said. As I get one, 

one little snippet that I heard and it

(32:41) actually solves three things for me, or that 

it was a domino effect because I solved this, then it automatically solved this and this, and 

you don't, it's hard to calculate those things, but when you start doing it for a regular 

period of time, I've got, I've Folks with, within our group that have been, you know, 

around for maybe a year or two, even three.

(32:58) [00:33:02] Chaz Wolfe: And the responses 

that I get from them now are, well, I, I, my business has grown, doubled or tripled. I'm 

spending more time with my family, especially my wife or my husband. I have, I have more time for 

my health than I ever have before. And it's like. [00:33:17] Chaz Wolfe: I'm still like in that 

place, like this is them scratching my head going.

(33:17) [00:33:20] Chaz Wolfe: I'm working less. I have 

a better life, but my business is crushing. I'm still kind of in the, like, how does this 

even happening? But to your point, a lot of times when you spend time on the things that 

matter, it doesn't actually take as much time. [00:33:35] Mike Paton: well the, the hurrier I 

go, the behinder I get is kind of the thing I

(33:34) hear a lot when somebody's on their way 

into an EOS implementation, overwhelm, promotes more overwhelm, and, you know, methodical 

elimination of issues by strengthening the six key components of a business. solve a 

bunch of issues and free up time. [00:34:02] Mike Paton: And so you can keep 

bringing file folders full of work home

(34:02) or going to the office seven days a week and 

lamenting the fact that your car is the first in the parking lot and the last to leave every 

night or you can get help. And, and, you know, I hope more people get help. I think that's 

an epidemic of a problem in this country. [00:34:23] Mike Paton: I think our rugged 

individualism on which this country was founded,

(34:23) the pendulum can swing way too far 

one direction and once in a while, it's okay to swing it back the other direction and 

say, Hey, you know, it turns out I'm a human and I'm full of flaws and. You know, talking 

to other people who might have struggled with the same things and getting their 

perspective might make me a better human.

(34:41) [00:34:45] Mike Paton: 

Yeah. That's valuable stuff. [00:34:47] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, extremely. All 

right, Mike. Well, how can the listener find you? We'll put this in the show notes as 

well. But, of course they can get your book, but how can they find you? They want to connect 

with you. Maybe they want to connect with EOS,

(34:52) but like your particular, you're, 

you got this thing going on. [00:34:57] Chaz Wolfe: That's just Mike. 

how can they find you particularly? [00:35:00] Mike Paton: Well, they can find me all 

over the EOS worldwide website, much to my chagrin to be perfect, but if they search the implementer 

directory for an implementer in the twin cities

(35:05) or, Sarasota, Florida, where I'm establishing 

a presence, they'll find me. Right away. [00:35:20] Chaz Wolfe: We'll put all that in the 

show notes, Mike, you, your insight, just years of history, the stories, all of that super valuable. 

Honestly, I wish I had a Rogan three hour period with you here, but I guess so many more questions. 

but we appreciate you being here. Appreciate your

(35:29) time. blessings to you, your family, Kate, all 

the things that you're touching here in 2024. [00:35:39] Chaz Wolfe: Thank you so [00:35:39] Mike Paton: Yeah. And Chaz and 

Jake, thank you. I really admire the work you're doing and it was a great pleasure 

to be part of your show today. Thank you. [00:35:47] Chaz Wolfe: Jake, my man, 

we just got done with Mike. A lot of

(35:47) stuff on EOS. What, what are you, what are you 

thinking? What are you, what are you feeling? [00:35:56] Jake: just, I really enjoy 

some of the behind the scenes story stuff that he was talking about with, with 

Gino and Don and building EOS and. you know, him talking about the mastermind principle and 

think you grow rich and how Napoleon Hill is one

(36:06) of his literary heroes. This whole concept of EOS 

though, is, is simple and as difficult as you want to make it and hearing Mike talk about the years 

and years of experience he's had, not only running EOS, but also being an implementer for other 

businesses and helping them through this process. [00:36:32] Jake: I think it was 

just valuable. Super valuable.

(36:32) [00:36:34] Chaz Wolfe: I felt the same way 

as far as the simplicity of his answers, but the weight or the movement that those 

answers could give to our listeners, the suggestions to implementation as opposed to self 

implementation, what were your thoughts on that? [00:36:50] Jake: Yeah. You know, I understand 

that you and I are a unique breed.I feel I may be

(36:50) incorrect with this, but I feel we've been 

successful in self implementing EOS and we self implemented in a, in a time in our 

business where we knew that we wanted to have this foundation that as the team grew, 

we could grow with this EOS process with this, this vision, traction, and you know, vision 

integrator roles inside of the business.

(37:14) [00:37:22] Jake: But I also recognize 

that like most people aren't us and should have an implementer come in 

and help them do this because it's, it's weighty stuff. It's heavy stuff. 

And you need a coach just like Michael Jordan had a shot coach. You know, he's the 

greatest basketball player of all time. He

(37:36) could be teaching people how to shoot, but he 

knew the importance of having someone else. [00:37:47] Jake: To help him guide him through 

the success that he had in his career. Same thing here, like bring in someone, help them 

or help you implement these, these concepts. [00:38:00] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah. I think 

that, the, the, the heaviest piece there for

(38:00) the entrepreneur is that I can do it or I'm 

capable of doing it. It's the same thing that the visionary. Carries the integrator role as 

long as they have to, I guess. Right. Cause they're capable, we're capable of doing 

it.but should you is the better question. [00:38:18] Chaz Wolfe: And, even just thinking 

about my conversation, you know, with George a

(38:18) couple of days ago, because he was asking me 

like, how much does it cost? And what are the benefits and kind of just the back and forth. And 

I was like, well, to be honest with you, you know, you're an architect. Okay, cool. Like you're 

disciplined, you're forward thinking you've got the ability to follow through, but like, I 

don't know what the rest of your team looks like.

(38:33) [00:38:36] Chaz Wolfe: And, Jake and I are both 

that, as a visionary integrator partnership, but we were also really small. And so you 

have a, you have a big team already and for you to be the guy that is rolling this 

out and kind of pushing it as opposed to here's the expert and we're all now 

going to follow this person's lead.

(38:52) [00:38:56] Chaz Wolfe: As soon as I said that 

he was like, oh yeah, like that makes way more sense because I could, I could introduce it, but 

to push this. Yeah. No, I have a business. Yeah. [00:39:05] Jake: No, exactly. And we 

mentioned it on the conversation with Mike, but sometimes as the visionary of that 

organization, you're the idea factory

(39:09) and. Less than half of those ideas get 

implemented. So for you to come to your leadership team and say, Hey, I've got this 

idea. We're going to self implement EOS. [00:39:23] Jake: This is something that, you 

know, gets put on the wood pile of great ideas that never come to fruition. And so 

by having someone else be the weight,

(39:27) be the force behind pushing this boulder 

up the hill, I mean, it's money well spent. [00:39:38] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, 

the conversation with Mike was incredible. I'm sure we've got more thoughts, but, it was cool to 

get a little, little tidbit here after the show, just record it up. And, I think that our 

audience will be pleased, as they listen

(39:45) [00:39:50] Jake: Just as a side note, I can't 

overstate how good reading get a grip was and pairing that with traction. It changes the 

way that I viewed that book. And so if people are thinking about implementing EOS, whether 

it's self implementing or hiring an implementer, reading, get a grip is I think the first step that 

I would recommend even before reading traction.

(40:10) [00:40:15] Thank you for listening today. 

I hope that you were able to pull out a few nuggets to go apply into your business 

right away. More importantly, though, I hope that you're realizing that it 

takes more to be successful than just being by yourself, doing it all on your 

own, carrying the weight all by yourself.

(40:27) [00:40:32] What I have realized, not only 

in my own journey from multiple businesses and multiple different industries, 

and now interviewing over 200 or 300, is that you can do it all on your own. And 

I hope that you're Other very successful seven, eight, and nine figure business owners 

is that it's tough to do it alone.

(40:41) [00:40:45] And so gathering the Kings exists 

to bring together successful entrepreneurs. In fact, we are putting together 1000 Kings 

specifically who are grateful, but not done. We're intentionally assembling Kings who fight 

tooth and nail for their business, family, and communities. And here's what we believe that 

in the pursuit of excellence in those areas,

(41:01) That it ignites within us, the responsibility 

to govern power and forge a lasting legacy. [00:41:13] So if that relates and 

resonates with you, and you know, that you need people around you, sharp, qualified, 

other very successful business owners. I want you to go to gatheringthekings. com. Once you take 

a look at what we're doing and see if it makes

(41:22) sense for you to be part of our 

pursuit to 1000 Kings talk soon.