Top Marketing Exec Reveals How Students Get Hired

Melissa Wilson drops a truth bomb on every student dreaming of a marketing job: passion isn’t enough—proof is.
As the National Head of Marketing & Communications at Doane Grant Thornton LLP, Melissa’s hired students, mentored grads, and built teams across Canada. In this episode, she reveals the 3 traits that make early-career candidates irresistible: curiosity, follow-through, and cultural fit. If you want to break into marketing without experience—or even without an internship—this is your blueprint.

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CHAPTERS

00:00 - Introduction
01:01 - The Real Job of a Marketer
04:38 - Why Passion Isn’t Enough
07:11 - What Makes Students Stand Out
10:40 - Can You Learn Marketing in School?
15:00 - How to Get Experience Without a Job
20:55 - Pro Tips from a Top Recruiter
25:08 - The Follow-Up That Got the Job
28:18 - Marketing with AI and Data
34:42 - Your Questions, Answered
39:15 - Final Advice: Stay Curious

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📚 Book Recommendations: 
Think Again by Adam Grant 
https://www.amazon.ca/Think-Again-Grant-Adam/dp/0753553910

Change by JohnP. Kotter: https://a.co/d/dDxxCgq

📩 Connect with Melissa: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-wilson-24a7b238/

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📣 Connect with Ashley!!!

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P.S.

To see all the Career Starter Program Book recommendations, click here: 

Transcript

0:00

It's really about genuine authenticity, believing in what you are working on and and bringing that to the market and then holding yourself accountable to delivering it. One of the things I encourage people to do is figure out what great looks like. Go. Become great. Develop those skills and you become an obvious job candidate. But I think people should take risks, and there's so much learning and growth that happens within it and doing it early in your career, I think just really catapults your ability to grow. It was a really interesting point you made there, I think. Take advantage of every opportunity you're given or asked to participate in. And if you're not being asked, then do the asking Wow. That's Welcome back to another episode of the Career Starter Podcast. My name is Ashley Misquita and I'm your host. If you’ve already subscribed to the show, thank you very much, but if you're new, please go ahead and subscribe. Because today, like every day, I'm going to be bringing you amazing guests, and we're going to uncover the tips and strategies that will help you get your dream job. And once you're in that job, helping you launch your career and accelerate it like a rocket ship. Melissa Wilson I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. We've been trying to put this together for a little while now. You've got such an interesting background. It's a background that I haven't crossed paths with many, many people on this podcast who have that background. So I think it's going to be really interesting. It's gonna be great for our audience. Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored that you asked, and I'm excited to chat a little bit more about my journey, and hopefully this will help a lot of your audience as they explore their career aspirations. So great. Fabulous, fabulous marketing is and it's a really interesting field and it's a very diverse field. So a lot of different areas of marketing people can gain some exposure to. You have a very interesting background, a fairly broad one. Why don't we start, if you don't mind, if you can walk us briefly through some of the different roles you've had and how they all kind of fit together? Sure. I guess to begin with, I wouldn't say that I started out with a vision of having a career in marketing. I at the time thought I wanted to career in health care to a certain extent. I studied health sciences at university, and that's kind of what I thought I would do, it’s the field many people in my family have followed. My first role actually was in marketing communications for the Ontario Lung Association, so the health component was there, but it very quickly became, a marketing and a communications role for me. And that segued into a role with Angus Reid, an amazing Canadian public affairs research entrepreneur, in this country and that created a huge opportunity and a learning for me around the importance of understanding your audiences, understanding what people are want, what they need, and how. In today's how in a society where we have so many brands, so many offerings, how do you connect with that audience? And so that was kind of the path that, I guess I started on and then took a bold move and, and we can talk a little bit more about this, but took a risk really. And I moved to the UK to a role that I was while I was supporting Angus Reid. But that was all entirely new for me, and I didn't go in with a roadmap. I didn't go on with a set of expectations. It was a really immersive in the moment. What does the business need? How can I contribute and how can I grow through that process? And then from there, I moved into more of a client service role in the industry side. So not so much marketing really actually. And looking after client accounts and looking after clients of the agencies that I was working in. And that was a great experience because it helps you understand the business side from a from a client perspective, the client servicing component of it, and it was all tied back to marketing and brand. And then that's when I really jumped into pure marketing for the company itself and started to move through different leadership positions from a real, pure marketing perspective, how we present ourselves and market, how we grow our brand. And so that's kind of the foundational piece that led me to where I am today. I think the other thing is, having spent some time in the UK, having spent some time working in the US about ten more years back in the UK, part of the career wasn't just about the subject matter expertise, it was about the exposure to the different companies and different geographies that helped me develop as an individual. And, and I think opened the doors to the opportunities that I am now. Now experiencing in my current role. Fabulous. When you think about the different roles you've had, you've covered a bunch of the territory of the areas people think of as marketing. When someone is in the position you're in now, how do you manage and supervise people who you've never really held that role? You've never before? When it sounds like you've never really done social media marketing yourself, there's there's subsets of marketing that you haven't done before. How does that work? Yeah, from a management perspective. It's so interesting. It's such a great question because part of being a leader is, is recognizing and surrounding yourself with really strong people who have a competency that is far beyond your own. how do you energize the people around you to be the best that they can possibly be and connect them with a broader team? So you all have each other's backs and can all rise together? Yeah, I think that's such an important part. As you progress through your career, coming in with with a core competency and an expertise area that you can leverage, but then continuing with that curiosity, that desire to learn, to get exposure, to push yourself outside of your comfort zone, to learn from others. It doesn't mean you have to become an expert in it, but it helps around your knowledge so that when you do come together as a multidisciplinary team, you're working really well in cohesion. Interesting. Now you have experience both on the agency side and on the client side. When you think about someone who's starting up their career, do people typically start on the agency side or do they bounce back and forth? Is there merit? Is it important to have both? How do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I did start in the agency side and I loved it. I loved the exposure. I loved, the ability to work across different industry sectors and, disciplines. And that helped me find my sweet spot and, and the focus that I want to pursue through a lot of that work, I have landed in more of a business to business, a B2B role, I think jumping straight into corporate, it works really well for many. And I have some new graduates in my team who are just spectacular and thriving in in what they're doing. And I think they've come, perhaps with a greater sense of clarity than maybe I had when I was younger. And so it can certainly work both ways. I think the underpinning to all of this is no matter what, whether you're agency or corporate, to be successful, relies on having deep curiosity, being proactive, and jumping on any opportunity that you have to learn, whether it's a different industry, whether it's a different discipline, coming up with creative ideas and finding that space where your voice can be heard and you're comfortable sharing your voice, even if it's not always something that people move forward with is really being a present person. That team, agency or corporate side. It's going to be a game changer for you. And compared to somebody else who may be very good at getting the job done, but isn't as present or proactive or active in the way the business is exploring. Yeah. No that's fair enough. Makes makes good sense. You touched on something that I'd like to follow up on there. When you think about people who are really successful on the agency side versus the corporate side, are the skill sets the same? like, you think back to seeing someone who is someone in their 20s, who people think of as an absolute rising star, someone who has just got like big winner written all over them. If you compare that person on the corporate side or the agency side to the corporate side, is it the same thing, same characteristics that make people think that about them and what are those characteristics? I guess I would say to sorry, yeah, I mean, what I would say right now is I think the characteristics are very similar and they should be very similar. I think if they're very different, you may you may generalize and say agency is fast paced and it's it's changing all the time. And you're dealing in more finite projects for clients. And then on the corporate side, you've got perhaps a little bit more bureaucracy you're dealing with, or you've got a different leadership model, but there is still a need for that urgency for that, that, ability to respond to changing demands in the market, even if you're on the corporate side, which is a bit more focused on one singular brand versus multi, there is a big trend right now with larger organizations building in-house marketing functions. So we're relying less and less on agencies. And something I'm doing in my team right now we’ve more than doubled in the last three years in size and I've brought in our digital skills I brought in-house our creative team and built out the capabilities from a design perspective. The same thing for content development and communications. So I think the agency for me certainly was a tremendously valuable part of my learning curve. But I think you could find a lot of that in organizations that are equipping themselves with that in-house function, because that's it. Like if I have somebody who's come in as a digital expert and I can surround them with a creative design expert and a marketing operations expert around efficiency and content development communications expert, they're growing and they're thriving in a similar format that you might on the agency side. So I would want to go in with the same characteristics, both sides. The lens is just a little bit different. Does it? It just occurred to me, as you were saying, that when you think about what makes someone really, really good at digital marketing versus PR versus creative, there's probably like they're probably all curious. They probably all want to do a good job, but they're probably slightly different characteristics because that make that would make someone great at one versus the other. Yeah, I mean, there's certainly certain competencies and learning like if you have or if you're a UX or a UI expert, that may not be something that a content developer like a communications writer might have, but there's still has to be enough crossover knowledge across because, you know, if if I'm developing a piece of an article that I want published on the website, I need to think about a format, I need to think about the words in the search engine optimization. Am I using the right language that people are searching for? Do I have it in the right format in the digital environment to reach my audience? Really? You know, I think if you're an expert in one particular niche area and never expand beyond that, then you're not setting yourself up for real success. And it's not about everybody being a jack of all trades. It's about understanding the role of that expertise or that that specialty area and how it connects and fits in with the bigger picture, because that's where the real strength comes from. I think that's a really important thing you just pointed out, or at least I think that's a really important thing you just pointed out, And one of the things you said that I thought was really interesting was that if I'm a student or someone early in my career, what I want to do is become really good at something. But I have an understanding, roughly speaking of other and how it all fits together. 100%. Yeah. When you think about, broadly speaking, people in marketing early stages of their career, one of the things I encourage people to do is figure out what great looks like, go become great, develop those skills, and you become an obvious job candidate, right? Because you you remind the interviewer of those people who work for them who are really, really good. In that context of what great looks like, what are characteristics you would highlight? what are characteristics you would highlight? I think having a deep curiosity is the first thing. If you're if you are a really good marketer, your skills around listening and discovery and understanding, you know, what are we trying to achieve? And then assessing the audience you're trying to connect with is the first part cuz that's going to to lay out the roadmap for you. And I think if you can overlay characteristics, personal characteristics on that curiosity piece and with creativity, because ultimately when you're going out to market whether it's a brand perspective or whatever that might be, you want to be different in the market. You don't want to be same as everybody else. You want to be salient. You want to figure out how can you be top of mind? There's a big sort of anthropological underpinning to marketing, and it's understanding your audience. So that is something, no matter where you are in your career journey, if you start on that path, then you kind of have all the puzzle pieces on the table. So then from there, I would say it's it's again figuring out how do I take the obvious and push it a little further, either through creativity or a way that cuts through is good marketing. There's a lot of marketing is a lot of noise in the market. And so if you have those characteristics as an individual, then you're starting to, to separate, separate yourself from, from the norm. I think the other thing that is probably probably true to most industries is marketing is changing very quickly. The way that we as consumers or as clients want to be connected with our needs are demands are expectations, are changing. The transparency in which, you know, we're receiving information is so much more open than it used to be. There's nowhere to hide. So marketing isn't about smoke and mirrors. It's really about genuine authenticity, believing in what you are working on and and bringing that to the market and then holding yourself accountable to delivering it. So. So I think that authenticity and belief in what you're doing is core to being a good marketer. Otherwise it is just smoke and mirrors, and that's not really fair to the audience. And, you know, it's it's not a good business practice. And to be honest, you'll be called out is you'll get your Google reviews and you'll get things that just can make or break a business and or a brand overnight. One of the things I would intuit is that you so you highlighted sort of that understanding your audience piece when you when you distinguish someone who's particularly good at that versus average or, you know, covered below average, and that's a fairly important part of the job. What is it like that sticks out to you when you think about someone who's like, really good at that versus average? How does that manifest? I think it's in the ability to take an idea or a concept, because marketing is often driven by an idea or a concept, and figuring out how to bring it to fruition. So there's creativity, there's proactivity, but there's a little bit of ingenuity, ingenuity that has to go into it as well. There aren't a lot of very static roadmaps. If you want to achieve this, you do that, you do this, you do that, you do that, and then you get to your end result. It really is about constantly checking in and listening. I think in today's society, even a marketing perspective, if you think about a media spend, you would plan out the next quarter's media spend. You'd lock in your however many million dollars of spend and hope it works, and then evaluate it at the end. That's not how it is now. Right now, it's all real time. Is what I just launched an hour ago. Two hours ago. Working? If not, we're going to refine it. Is it reaching the audience? I was actually really connecting with that audience. Let's put more behind it. So it's it's I think the difference is somebody who can develop a path, figure out how to bring it to market and then be open to continuously optimizing and challenging. Could it be doing better? How do I need to change it? And being flexible, you may have the most wonderful messaging that you've developed, that you've your heart and soul you poured into, and it's not working. You're going to have to let that go and figure out how to evolve it. So there's a there's I think that's when I'm working with people who were like that. That's when we really succeed as a team. Melissa, if someone wants to become better at this, Melissa, if someone wants to become better at this, if they want to develop those that skill one, is it a learnable skill? And two, how would they go about becoming better at it, particularly, let's think about people in school in a in a university setting or very early in their career. Yeah. Oh, I think it can definitely be a learned skill. Oh, I think it can definitely be a learned skill. I think it partly stems from getting involved in a variety of projects, seeing them through, but then taking the time at the end of it to do that post analysis. What worked really well? Why did it work well? What didn't? What would we do differently? And I think if you go through that, you're continuously building on your learning. So often we're busy. We we finish a project, you jump on to the next and the risk there is you start repeating mistakes. So I think that's a really important component of it. I think there's a lot more reliance on analytics now and it's very telling. So if you are looking at your performance on a regular basis, it's pointing you to how you can make things better. So not being blind to that is another important part of that growth mindset. And again, I think the more open you are, the more people will warm to supporting your growth and your development. And so what can I do differently? Can you give me one thing you'd love to see me work on so I could make it better? We use confidence building feedback in in our organization right now, and it's a great way of praising and recognizing where things are going well, and then making that build as you continue to grow focus in this area. And so I think inviting that and surrounding yourself with leaders who offer that is a way of certainly achieving that. It's not necessarily you have it or you don't. It's funny, like as you were talking, one of the things that occurred to me is that if I'm interviewing for a marketing role, the idea that I have already built in systems for myself of what I would describe in the in job search process as an after action report. So after every interview do you should take 5 or 10 minutes, go to a coffee shop, write down what you did well, or type in your phone. What did you do well? What did you do poorly? Questions? Do you ask them? What questions do they ask you? Any other notes that are important? And you start to notice those patterns and you start to reduce the amount of times you make the same mistake. As you pointed out. I think one of the other interesting things about marketing, and maybe this is true to to many other fields, but it's also taking a step back and looking at what resources do I have at my disposal. And, and how do I leverage all of those resources as learning opportunities or as connectors for people right now who are still in university or looking for career opportunities? You know, who do you know that is in this field? And how do you build those relationships in those connections? How do you show that eagerness and that appetite to learn if you asked, you’d be surprised how many people are very, very excited to offer support and create opportunities for you to gain experience. You know, for for most roles will easily get 150, 200, up to 500 resumes come in. How do we cut through those? The ones that I look at the most, the ones I look at quickest are coming through some kind of word of mouth referral. And so I think leveraging the context that you have, the network that you build around you is such an important part in today's world where AI can just commoditize everybody out of out of your first round resume review, you've got to find something else that is really meaningful and has human at the center of it. Well, and tying together something you said a few minutes ago to, to what you just said is that it seems to me that having people take an interest in your career matters a ton, because otherwise you're only relying on your own experience of error correction. Well, okay, I need to. I learned even if you learn it from your previous role or a previous project you worked on, if you don't have mentors who are also giving you guidance, it can be pretty tricky. Yeah, and the mentors can come in different in different forms. Like I'm the head of the marketing team here where where I work right now. But the mentors for me that I'm really reaching out to are the chief information officer, the chief business transformation officer, people who are outside of the marketing realm, but that I connect and connect with very closely, and that's continuing to fuel my growth. So I think, you know, finding those mentors either within the discipline that you're in or those those adjacent disciplines is really important no matter what stage you're at in your career. I've observed that early in, because I’ll get students ask, how do I get a mentor and my experience has been that you don't find mentors. Mentors find you and they find you because there's something interesting about you. You have you are doing interesting things. They you somehow stand out and people want to help people who are doing interesting things. And, you know, I think potential is that what you've seen in your career or is it more individually driven by the person themselves? Yeah. I mean, I think it's a little bit of both. I think I could walk out into the organization, whether they're in my team or not. I could spot someone who is who is full of energy, full of ideas, really proactive, wants to get involved, wants to learn. Those are the people I want to work with. And then the flip side of that is the people who come forward and ask, so someone we recently hired actually came through a referral from a partner in the organization, and I connected with with him and, he was an intern last year and graduated a month and a half ago. And in January I locked him in and secured him with the full time job. And he's and he's now here working full time straight out of university. He found me through the network that he developed and was amazing. Conversely, you go out there and it's what you how you express and present yourself that creates that draw. That's I guess, the other way that it can happen too. the people you have seen who have struggled over time in the industry. And if the answer is just like the inverse of the things that people do, well, that's fine too. But the people who have struggled have not really succeeded, who maybe have left the industry. Are there common characteristics you would think of that they would tend to have? Yeah. I think people who are really rigid in their thinking and inflexible, not surprising, people who aren't willing to be present in the moment. And, you know, we're coming through Covid and a lot of new grads will have started their first job remote. And I think very quickly we're moving to an environment where that's not going to work long term anymore, unless you're in a very specific developer kind of role or something like that. I think that being present, and the energy that that brings into an environment is so critical. And if you feel like you can just do your job and it becomes very task oriented and you want to work hybrid, that's fine. But I don't I don't think that's what's really going to propel you the next level. That's really interesting because I, I would think that the father and industry skews towards human relationships. Understanding people, the more that's almost, almost has to be in person as opposed to permanently hybrid or primarily remote. It is. And I think even though we are a marketing team within a professional services advisory firm, we are a relationship based organization firm, and the work that our partners do with their clients are about business advisors. And so much of that relies on that personal relationship. And so when we come together as a team and have that personal relationship and develop content and go to market with the lens of personal relationship, it starts to really become an authentic way of being across the whole firm. If we were all sitting at home on our own, working not in collaboration with each other and trying to put out into the market something authentic, that is relationship based, there's people see through all of that. I think, you know, even within the functions of an organization, you've got to live and breathe the purpose and the brand ideal of who you're representing. Such an interesting subtlety. I wasn't I wasn't expecting that. But it's a really good point. Right. So it's not only the synergy and the like the, the using buzzwords, but like working together as a team where you sort of play off of each other and, and those relationships help help you get better and produce better work. But it's also on the corporate side, you're in marketing at a company, right? And so really interacting and having close relationships with the business people is critical. I would think on the corporate side, I don't think I was that was wasn't obvious to me before. Although it kind of makes sense. Yeah. If you're a business advisor and you're sitting down with your clients and you're looking at what are the opportunities to grow your business, how and where can you expand? Let's understand what keeps you up at night, and how can we work together to solve those those challenges and those issues and create opportunity? It's the same thing when we sit down as a team. What are we trying to solve for? What is the the emotion that we want to create in how we we communicate to the market so that that they're really working in synergy with each other. And you probably understand your client's pain points because of your interactions with the business line. Right? Because they're the ones who are out there seeing what the problems their clients have that enable you to communicate how you have solutions to those. Yeah. And it's full circle because we want to be we want to be responding to what is the most urgent thing in our client’s minds. And so as a marketing team, the way we present ourselves and market the content that we develop, everything should be in response to what the client at the end of the day are searching for. Yeah. So if you're if you're not connected into that world, you could be creating creating great content, but it's not relevant to the audience you're trying to reach. Right? Right. Yeah. That's really interesting. Thinking back, relative to when you first started in the industry to as you gained some experience, was there anything that really surprised you in terms of what skills made someone really good and what were valuable skills for you to have? I think I fell into the same boat you were talking about before, like, I need to come in with a real specialist knowledge in one area. I think the ability to come in and learn as you go is perhaps I, I don't, I don't think I knew what I didn't know back then. anyway. It was really about a mindset of learning and growing and not coming and feeling that you have to be an expert in everything. Things are changing so quickly. It's really about reading the room and adapting to to the moment. I think where I am really excited from a marketing career perspective is there was a day and age where it was all about is it on brand, does it look pretty kind of thing? And marketing now is so much more evolved than that. It is such an integrated part of the business success. This is all about the client experience or the customer experience we're creating that ties back to marketing. Marketing and sales are often go hand in hand, or marketing and business development. And so how we're equipping our leaders to grow the business, there's a real ROI, and tangible value beyond the font, the graphics, the colors, the content that you're putting out on the market. So I love the way that marketing is evolving as a profession to be a real core part of how a business functions and succeeds and can differentiate in the market. We’re almost going to wrap up this section here in a second, but let me let me ask two quick questions first. Number one, 22 year old Melissa comes to you and says, what advice do you have for me? You've got you know, you've had a rich career already and there's more to come. But where you are today, what would you tell 22 year old Melissa about how to succeed in the industry specifically? I would say be as proactive as you can be, get out there and take advantage of every opportunity you're given or asked to participate in. And if you're not being asked, then do the asking yourself, because that really will stand out. Somebody comes to my door and says, can I grab 20 minutes of your time speaks volumes to me compared to me, kind of eventually getting around to saying, actually, we should probably have a catch up. Let me book it for next week. So I think I think having that as the way that you operate is really important. Take some chances, take some risks. You know, I my life would be very different if I hadn't. Not that this would work for everybody, but packed up and moved abroad when I was younger. It it allowed me to really expand and grow in a way that I don't think I would have had I not taken that risk. And not every risk has to be like that. It can still be here, but I think people should take risks, and there's so much learning and growth that happens within it and doing it early in your career, I think, just really catapults your ability to grow. You also come to the table after that with something that it's not just like cookie cutter, where it was like, you know, when your resume is going to be different than many folks who have like sort of step by step by step, that's not predictable. It's not bad per se, but you do. It also gives you the, additional benefit of standing out just on paper where it's like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think like many professions, you can learn the skills and the trait. The thing that I think helps to differentiate is, is how you remain true to yourself and all of that, that vulnerability, that ability and that willingness and desire to connect with other people. I think about the people who've influenced my career the most. They're fiercely intelligent people, but there are lots of CEOs out there. There are a lot of business leaders out there. It's who they are as a person and the space that they created to, surround themselves with amazing talent. That's that's really the most magical thing. And it's not a cookie cutter. But I think one of the things maybe I struggled with earlier in my career that I've started to and I'm not fully there yet, but started to become more comfortable with this, just who I really am. I'm probably a more emotional leader than many people would be out there. I probably am, a little bit, you know, I'm a little bit more vulnerable in many situations. But it's interesting because I used to kind of try to try to hide that previously. And I've learned actually, that's a little bit of what has made me who I am. And it's something that I think for some of the colleagues that I work with, one of the attributes that they admire the most, because in a way, it gives them permission to be true to who they are. And when we're all kind of showing up our authentic selves, that's when we're going to really be the best and the strongest team. But it is something I've definitely struggled with. I really, you know, I get emotional in situations and I berate myself, and you've got to be stronger. You've got to be more corporate. You've got to be more this, more that. And sometimes you just have to be human. Yeah. And that gives, as you put it, one people more, you know, some level of permission. Of course, there's a balance to this. Right. But it gives people some permission to do that themselves. But it also gives people the ability to probably relate to you. Yeah. And it is a creative world, marketing in many ways. There isn't really a right or wrong. There are ideas that come together. We make them the best possible, the best that they possibly can be and then bring them to market. And so when you have that relatability and you kind of bring all of your guards down, that's when that feedback flow is much easier actually. You know, you've come to the table with an idea. You know, that's a great starting point. But I think, you know. What if we think about this or any other ideas we can do to make it better? And you just start to open up that dialog for improvement versus coming in with a set mindset, do you think that gives a marketer more of an ability to empathize with clients, with what their needs are to a greater extent, not think of just I want this I imagine they want this as opposed to let me think about what they feel, what they want, which would seem to me to be important in marketing. Yeah, I think a really strong marketer isn't necessarily it's not on them to come up with all the answers. I think a really strong marketer surfaces, surrounds themselves with the right ideas and thinking and talent and surfaces the best possible answer. That's really the difference. You know, you have whoever came up with just do it Nike, Whether it was them in isolation or that was their idea, how that manifested and came to life was a team. It wasn't just one person that made Just Do It what it is today. And so I think that's, surrounding yourself with the right talent, surfacing those ideas, being open to feedback and continuously building. And that change mindset, that improvement mindset is, is what makes a good marketer so interesting. So there's I'm hearing also the importance of humility and being able to like being able to listen. And humility kind of go hand in hand and being present go hand in hand. Because if you're if you don't have some level of humility, you're not able to hear other people's ideas. You're not be able to hear when they might be better than yours. And how they can make yours better, or you can make theirs better. Yeah, for sure. And you can come to the table with what you think is the greatest idea, and it gets squashed and the business makes a decision to move in a direction instead of pick yourself back up and go in the direction of the business, and, and fly that flag. And so I think it's important to come to the table with those ideas, and they're not always going to be the ones that come out on top, but thinking about the broader business objective and the bigger cause and really getting behind it, I think is really key. We're going to jump into job search in a second, but one of the things that also just jumped out of me, just there is I always try to think about like, if you're a student and you're trying to demonstrate proxies of characteristics that can succeed, you know, getting answers to your questions, giving examples of how you come to like in a group project, for example. Everyone comes with their ideas. We figure out what the right answer is, and they're all on the same team. We're all doing the same thing that probably you're ears probably pick that up when you're interviewing someone. Well for sure, yes. And I and I often will ask, you know, how are you receiving feedback and how do you grow from that? And so on and so forth. So I think that is a really big part of it. I think the other thing when we're when I'm meeting candidates, the more they're relating questions to real life experiences, and even if you're coming without like formal job experience, you could relate back to a project that you, you took on at school or teamwork that you did, and your ability to identify the role that you played in that team and the important role that multiple people played. And I think, you know, the more that you can be specific about real life examples and how you're applying that to your learning and could apply that to a role moving forward brings the intangible into the tangible, can see that this person actually is thinking this way, and I can see that they're relating and continuing to grow and learn. Before we shift to the job search, part of things, let's talk about AI briefly, we're recording this in June of 2025. You know, in July of 2025, it'll probably be out of date. This part of the conversation. Yeah. We're just two days. What's that exactly? Three days. Exactly. Given how fast things are moving, if it's been a real whirlwind since like, November 2022, when GPT three burst on the scene. And, let's start with what are you seeing? Marketing is one of those areas that is potentially exposed to disruption from AI. I'm sure you're seeing it already. Let's start with where are you seeing it used and how are you seeing it used. Do you see it as an accelerant? Or do you see it as a replacement? How do you think about that? I do not see it as a replacement. I think AI in my world, and I've heard this in lots of different places. It's really about augmented intelligence as opposed to artificial intelligence. At the end of the day, we are humans. We are connecting with humans, were relating to humans. And so the role that AI is playing for us right now, and this is kind of where we're comfortable at the moment, is it's helping us get to a really strong starting point much quicker. And then that's when we come in as humans who understand the business, the culture, the, the objective and, and it in a way that, that maybe AI would miss. And if we weren't doing that, then every other firm out there in the world would be putting out the exact same content that we are. I mean, I know it's only as good as you brief in, and the more specific you are with briefing things in, the more tailored the response is. But I still really feel like there is that layer of real, true human that, is important in the mix now is AI helping us develop creative quicker 100%? Is it helping us give us a baseline in terms of some more content and refine messaging? 100%, but it's only taking us to a certain level, and then then the team will come in and bring in the augmentation. The area I think AI is also helping us is is just around efficiencies and process. There's there's a ton in terms of meeting objectives coming out of those meetings, accountabilities, follow ups. It's getting it's helping us get much faster what we're doing and more targeted. I don't think it's replacing us and I would be very sad if it did, but it certainly is helping and there's a lot that we can do that just will make us get quicker, more on point, more compelling in what we do create. In some ways it lets you get more done too. Yeah. And I think that's the other thing that we've got to be careful about is, is it's not always about more often it's about better because there's so much noise in the system already. And if you're just pumping more and more and more out there, you're just adding more to the mix. So it's about creating the right content and delivering it with the right creative and the right message through the right channel, targeting the right audience at the right time. Otherwise, it's just noise. I also liked what you said about it's getting you to the starting point faster. That's, I think, a really interesting way and a smart way to look at AI. I yeah, it maybe, I don't know, maybe it's naive. I, I know that there's a ton that AI can do that I'm not even aware of. And so it's a learning curve for me coming later in my career and being faced with a lot of people who are coming in and have vast knowledge in AI that doesn't even scratch. I can't even scratch the surface on. And again, that's when I rely on bringing in the right talent to bring the information to me. And collectively, we can make the right decision on behalf of the business. It would seem to me that, and I've just started having these conversations in the podcast. It would seem to me that we're either at or rapidly approaching the point where someone coming in has to have these skills, right. It used to be, you know, can, you know, if you can do some coding? Wow. That's really cool. That's a that's a really nice feature. Now, it would seem to me that, you know, if you don't have basic facility with figuring out how to generate good prompts using, you know, certain AI tools, thinking about how can I how can I take advantage of AI tools that are coming down the pipe? You're probably at a competitive disadvantage. I 100%, and I think it's, you know, it's it's the prompts and it's the briefs that you put in to whatever you're asking to be created. But it's also, the operational systems that we're using to keep ourselves organized. So, copilot, you know, at the end of every meeting, you've got your meeting notes, you've got the actions, the accountabilities quickly coming out of that. So if you don't understand that universe, your role around the table So if you don't understand that universe, your role around the table So if you don't understand that universe, your role around the table fall behind the curve on that one. So I think even from an operational perspective, not just from a creation perspective, it's a really important tool that we all have to be aware of. Let's talk briefly about data over time. You know, I think that there can be a perception that, you know, I'm a creative. I don't need to know any of this math or analytics. I was told there'd be no math involved. And so is that true or is that maybe was true or not anymore? What are your thoughts on that? You'd have to go far back in time for it not to be true. Like even in the earliest stages of my career, I spent 20 years with Kantar. It is a brand, brand, building agency and everything was all about data. And what does that data tell me and the insights? And how do I use that information to improve the creative, whether it's a commercial that's being developed or the brand or, you know, if I'm going out with a certain messaging is it's going to resonate with my audience. And so all of that is really coming from the data. The data that is that is answered through the audience you're trying to reach. So it is super, super important. It gives you the confidence that you're putting the right energy and resource in the right place. It's reaching the audience that you're trying to influence at the front end and at the back end. It allows you to understand, was I successful? And if I wasn't, where did I miss the mark? How do I improve that moving forward? So I think it plays such an important role. And I think it's a real gift because it's helping marketing demonstrate the accountability and the value and the ROI that we're contributing towards business. So if you look at it the way we present ourselves in market, if we can look at the engagement we have with our audience, whether it's through a website for media, the engagement is is kind of a data figure. If you look at the analytics around websites and heat mapping, what content are people gravitating to? What are they not? Let's not continue to build up content in this area. If we know everybody's going to this area. SEO search engine optimization is all based on data. Am I using the right words, the right language that people are searching for so that my content can be found? So it cuts through on so many different levels of what we're doing in the marketing world. I mean, in any part of the business. But it is equally important in, in marketing. And I will say I was definitely not a math, a math person in school and in university, and I don't think you have to be. It shouldn't be something that scares you. I think if it's something that you can definitely learn, but it is really important and it helps, you don't necessarily have to be a math person, but you have to not be afraid of math. Ideally. That fair? Yeah, yeah. I mean, if I was pretty, I was pretty afraid of math. I'm going to be honest, I was pretty afraid of math. But I think that you can demystify some of it. It's about putting putting the numbers in context, whether the numbers 75 or 120 in relation to what. And I guess that's where the curiosity comes in as well, you know, you can be presenting someone with a set of numbers. It's the questions that come off the back of it and the insights that you draw from it. that come off the back of it and the insights that you draw from it. that come off the back of it and the insights that you draw from it. The numbers I think can be simplified. And the learning, it's really kind of where you take you take that aspect of it that starts to become fascinating. And then the scariness of math goes away because it's just curious. It's interesting. It's insightful. Interesting. Okay, let's shift gears to the job search. You post. for a job, you get a lot of inbounds some number of resumes will ultimately hit your desk. And I'm guessing you then select from those to interview. Is that a roughly reasonable way to think about it? Yeah. So actually we we have an amazing talent attraction team here. And they do a lot of heavy lifting. And they'll they'll go through rounds of digital interviews as well. So I think that's an important part of the process that people should expect in many instances. And then from then it'll get shortlisted down to a very small handful where we'll move into essentially a second interview. So the first interview would be more digital and speaking with the talent attraction individual, and then with myself or somebody in my team who would be line managing the person in that role. But once it gets to me, it's a fairly refined process. You know, I think, I think this is where a lot of people rely on AI to develop a great CV or a great resume. And again, you've got to figure out how are you going to augment it, like, what are you going to put in that that helps you stand out. And part of it is outside of the resume itself. It is about who do I know in this organization? Can I get a reference letter or is there something compelling? Is there a way in which I can reach out? Let me look and see if the hiring person is on LinkedIn. Let me try to stand out in a different way. There are 100 resumes that don't even come close to my eyes. I have somebody else looking at them. So. So again, what if somebody reached out to me in LinkedIn and said, I've just I've just applied for this role. You know, I'm really excited to learn more about it. The organization or the firm looks amazing. I might flip that back to talent acquisition and say, what's your view on this person? But if you haven't done that, then you're one of the 150 that you know you might get through or you might not. So so again, I think it's about just that augmentation piece. So when I talk to people interested in consulting or equity research or investment banking or, a variety of other jobs, what I'm going to tell them is a version of what you said in that what you need to do is you need to connect with someone at the company. You need to have a coffee, chat with them, have an interview, you know, an informational interview, whatever the term is, connect with them. Learn about the role, figure out you know, what's the job? What's involved in the job? Do you really want to do it? And hopefully they, once the job is posted, once there’s an opportunity, they'll bring your resume in and say, you know, I talked to this person already. Maybe we should at least include them in the process so that frame works in marketing as well, 100%. And so often from a marketing team perspective, we are we're hosting events, we're speaking at conferences, we are broadcasting webinars on content. And, you know, I hadn't really thought of this before, but if somebody joined a webinar which is free, you just register, you can come and watch it. You're learning more about the industry, you're connected into the network off the back of that, like on the chat of the webinar, really great content that starts to form a connection and it shows an enthusiasm and a deep interest. It's not just like this is one of the 100 applications I put out there. You're actually investing a little bit of time and interest, and just finding those connections are really valuable. There's this phrase that, enthusiasm is worth 20 IQ points or 30 IQ points. I think it's 100% off the mark. 100%. Yeah. And that is for, for for my team and honestly, for myself included, it's not about the person with the biggest and best degree and the most accomplished from a marketing perspective, it's we're not the accountants. It's not like I'm a CPA and I have to have that accreditation. So there's a lot of bandwidth and flexibility to chart your path and create your future. But it does require that enthusiasm. It requires proactivity, energy, presence and connection. Even more in marketing. Probably than many other fields. Not only is it important from a getting your resume in front of someone who might be able to look at it or help you with it, but the very process of being able to do that is actually a critical proxy for success on the job, potentially because, as you pointed out, they're proactive, they're enthusiastic. potentially because, as you pointed out, they're proactive, they're enthusiastic. Maybe there's angles of curiosity there. If they if they do it right. But certainly from a proactive perspective, a, an enthusiasm perspective from a human connection perspective, like those are proxies for success in the job that we talked about earlier. Totally Totally Oh, interesting. Okay. Well, you have, I'm sure, done interviews with a lot of students over time. Well, you have, I'm sure, done interviews with a lot of students over time. Well, you have, I'm sure, done interviews with a lot of students over time. Anyone or any stories that leap to mind about people who really stood out? Firstly, we will always hire for fit first. So I think somebody who's taken the time to explore the company, the brand, our, our purpose and comes in with an affinity for that, why this is meaningful for them, why they feel that they would be a great fit and that they're excited by what the business represents. That's a really important part, because you could be the smartest interview or the most accredited or, experienced interviewer, but if it's not the right cultural fit, it's not going to work. So I think that's a really important thing. And to be to be in that interview because you genuinely want to be there and you really want the opportunities that that firm can offer you, I think so I think that's one important part. The other one, again, is coming back to real life examples. And we can all talk in theory and we can all talk in kind of we can all talk about things in, in sort of best practice theoretical terms. But if you can draw on real examples and your growth and your learning and, maybe things that that you went into something expecting it to be one way and it was different in how you adapted, all of those skills that demonstrate you're somebody who others can work with and who's willing to grow is such an important element. You know, the follow up afterwards that always stands out to me when somebody reaches out after. One intern that I hired last year, was talking about a project in University and, you know, the next day in my inbox was the presentation that they delivered at school, which was such a nice thing to see. So we we really was kind of backing up the story with, with something he was proud of. And, and again, so that that just starts to demonstrate the accountability to follow through the pride that they have, the energy and excitement they have for the role. So I think those are some of the characteristics that I would be looking for. I'm always amazed when I'll do an interview with someone and not get a thank you note. It blows my mind because it's not even like it's not a secret. It's not like, you know, we've just like, shared something that nobody knows. Everyone should know that that you either know or they should intuit that, you know, I just gave up a bunch of my time, or you gave up a bunch of your time, and we should say thank you when people give a bunch of the time for you. And so I'm always amazed when they when I don't get a thank you. You know what I think that's, that's a, you know, obviously a good indication. But the people that you want to work with outside of the interview, those who are grateful, those who are gracious, it it just it's the foundation for a long term relationship. You want to work with those people more. You invite them into more projects because of the energy and the commitment, and you want to surround yourself with people who are kind and want to be there. And so, yeah, I think that's, a really good call out. Well, it can help you out too, right? So if you have a thank you note where one you're thanking the person. Two, you refer something, you refer to something that you guys talked about in the interview that you thought was interesting or you were excited about, you know, it sort of if you start with some enthusiasm and the person, decided, yeah, this seems like an interesting person, I'll meet them. You do an interview with them. They, are, you know, they're they're keen. They're they're talking about all the stuff that you talked about, like connecting with the brand you follow up after and then this, like, there's this consistent theme emerging of someone because it's hard to really, really know people. But if a theme, a pattern emerges that's actually also a really important thing, I hadn’t really framed it that way before. But that can be important as well. It's a it's a great call out. And I think from a, a brand perspective, and when you're in an interview and you are presenting, this is your personal brand. And from a brand building perspective, there are three really important factors. It's how are you different from everybody else? How are you meaningful in the conversation, in your interaction, and how are you salient? How do you remain top of mind? And so that follow up email puts you at the top of my inbox. You become more top of mind. And so I think treating it the way you might treat a brand is a really good way of thinking about cutting through. And I've seen people I don't know not being a marketing person myself. I'm not sure how true this is, but there's a certain number of times people, on average will need to interact with you before they buy something from you. Yeah, yeah. And so it depends what you're it depends on what you're trying to sell, whether it's a professional service versus, you know, a tube of toothpaste. But yeah those those interactions are key. And then when you do interact are you different? Is it meaningful to them and are you remaining top of mind okay. After these podcasts, I'll do a top three takeaways from a job search perspective from a career success perspective. from a job search perspective from a career success perspective. And that is definitely going to be one of them. By the way, if anyone is interested in getting that, the link to it'll be in the description below. So click on that and you can sign up and we'll get that out to you. Of all the takeaways we've had from our podcast we've done so far, so feel free to check that out. Little in podcast advertising. Perfect. So, on the topic of podcasts, do you recommend anything? Is there any podcasts or newsletters or books that you recommend students could read to prepare themselves more for the industry? You know, obviously you're gonna set yourself up well for interviews. If you're more familiar with the industry, have some you understand some of the nuances, anything you would recommend to people. So one thing that comes to mind as, as an accounting firm, we often are on campus holding campus events and I think if I were a student at university now, I would look at what campus events are happening, even if they're not the industry that I want to pursue. So if I want to pursue marketing, what I really show up at, accounting firm Campus Event, does that do those to those firms at that event have a marketing team? Because I know if somebody goes up to Grace, who's in our team and leads campus and comes up to her and talks about, oh my gosh, you know, your company looks amazing. Do you have marketing? I really want to get into the marketing field. She will she will hand that across. And so she's this person is in a different environment, a different discipline, and immediately has access to the team that is recruiting those interns. So I think thinking creatively about who is coming onto campus and how do you make a connection outside of the norm? It's one thing to show up at the marketing campus recruitment, but look at those other industry sectors as well. From a book perspective, I think there are a few things I think are constant. Let me start with one that is really around the fundamentals of how you build yourself in your career. And it's Brené Brown, and it's around daring to lead. And whether you are in your very early stages of career or a much later stage of career, there are a few fundamentals that I think, apply all the way through. And she's got some great insight, that great storytelling. But again, it's all about showing up authentically. It's about being vulnerable. They, you know, she uses a word language like clear is kind. And so bringing that into how you interact with others is, is really important. And so I think that was, a great book to read. The other one is Change and this that really is all about adapting in unconventional times. And we are in a constant state of flux. There is change that is happening, organizational change, change, and in pretty much every sense of the word. And so how do you remain agile in that kind of environment. And so I think for me, I would tend to lean more towards some of those leadership style books. I would tend to lean more towards some of those leadership style books. One of the things I've always been a believer in and it's very easy in the investment industry, but I but can be harder elsewhere is that you don't need permission to go analyze a stock. You can be a student, and the transcripts of the conference calls are usually public. Filings or quarterly with the SEC or the OSC. They post presentations on their website, press release, blah blah, blah. You can go and analyze many stocks you want. It gives you experience. You're putting in reps the most fundamental mistakes you make the first time you ever do it. Maybe you learn from that and you, by the time you get later on, you don't make those same mistakes. And and as we talked about earlier, you learn does it work the same way in marketing? Could I if I was a student in university now and I wanted to one develop experience and two build credibility, could I, you know, if I, if I went to a local business and said, I know you can't afford to do any real social media marketing, I'm trying to get some skills at it. How would you feel if I did SEO for you? Would you look at that and be like, oh, that's really cool, and you're kind of learning and that's a great enthusiasm initiative? Or is it like, yeah, I mean, it doesn't really work that way unless you're sort of in the field doing it. Can you do permissionless marketing? I think you can. Totally. You can totally analyze from that perspective. If you pulled a piece of content from the website and did a bit of SEO analysis on it, you could come back and say, great, you're using the word purple. But if you actually use the word magenta, that's what everybody's looking for, I think. I think there are lots of ways you can, from the outside, look at things, evaluate and find opportunities to optimize. A lot of them could be the exploratory things like, what if you change the music? Or we will often do on our side AB testing. So I'm not sure if you're on not within the organization how you might do that. But you know, you can go in and look at someone's social media feed and say, look, your posts are really performing well when you include this, when you're missing them. So yeah, there's a lot of creative ways you can get dig into analytics that will help you learn, and that would perhaps benefit whatever you're analyzing. Whoever you're analyzing in that moment. Would you view that positively in a candidate? Like if someone is doing a bunch of that stuff on their own, if I were interviewing a candidate and they came in and said, I had a look at the your corporate social media, I'm looking at your engagement rates on posts that are in this area or topics like this versus this. Here's what seems to be performing really well, and then invite the conversation like, tell me more. Was that intentional? What do you find works really well? And it becomes a shared learning opportunity for sure. And if somebody came in, I mean, whether or not whether or not the analysis that they arrive at is is correct or incorrect, it shows that deep curiosity, it shows that desire to learn and a willingness to challenge. Is it as good as it could be? How could we make it better? You know, it's funny to that you, the frame, the phrase you used is that it's one that, I talk about a lot, too, is that if I can take an interview and turn it into a conversation where we're almost collaborating on something that is a huge win relative to a like a tennis match, where it's a question answer, question answer. And in some ways, it almost feels like you're working together already. And so that person gets to experience a little bit of what it's like to work with you. And if that's a good experience, that's pretty cool. Now you used it in the context of them analyzing yours. I'm going to guess if someone comes in and says, you know, I'm a university student. And I didn't make any money doing this, but for like three local businesses, I went and got on the inside because there's a difference between what you can see outside and inside in terms of data. Right. So you can you can see more details on engagement. I would assume you're getting to see their Google business page like stuff like that. If someone comes to you, it's like, here's like a report I did for this company, for this company, for this company. I got to think that you're going to be impressed with that for sure. Especially in a world right now where, you know, there there aren't as many jobs as maybe there were two years ago, and you have a lot of people who are looking to gain experience, who maybe don't have that job that they can put on their resume. And so it fills, it fills a really important gap, but it also demonstrates things that you can't communicate through a resume in the same way. It's that initiative. Again, it's that proactivity in that curiosity that, How how would a student how would someone early on or how did you evaluate and understand the culture of a firm you're looking to move into? I would think it's important everywhere. It feels to me like that's really important in marketing. Yeah, I think it's important everywhere. And I, I haven't moved around a lot in my career, like I've moved geographies. But, you know, there's four companies in quite a few years. That's pretty much all I've, I've worked with. And partly it is around finding something that is the right cultural fit, that has the right ambition and drive and growth potential so that you can continue to grow and expand and then really leaning into it. I think when you're given an opportunity to make a decision, recognize the decision, make that decision really intentionally and then lean into it. I think wasting time, second guessing or looking for affirmation, you lose momentum. You lose that drive. And so I think that's where the culture fit and intentionally making decisions. And then just diving in sets a cadence and a pace that I find is super energizing and can mean you can stay somewhere for a long time and continue to grow and thrive in your career. Now that you're for some time now obviously involved in hiring, what do you wish you knew when you were young in the job search? You know, in the early days, what would you feel like you would have benefited knowing? Is there anything we haven't talked about that or anything you'd want to highlight? I think I was very lucky, I would say, and I formed good relationships and that opened doors for me, and I did my very best to make sure I didn't let down the people who advocated for me and maintain those relationships, you know, for a lifetime since, you know, I think if I were to sort of go back to my 22 year old self, it would be definitely jump into opportunities that are presented in front of you, push yourself outside of your comfort zone and recognize you don't have to go in as an expert. You can learn if you show up with the right qualities and conviction and commitment. And I think, I think it's you're hiring someone in the moment. You've met them maybe once or twice. You've read a resume. Once you've got the job, it's really what do you do with it then? How do you continue to become someone? Oh, yes. Let's let's put Ashley on that Ashley's going to be the best person for it. You kind of want to be the one who was the most top of mind, who is the most adaptable, who's going to make everybody else's life around you easier. Because they're just going to get it and run with it. And if they have questions, they're going to come and ask questions. So they have that clarification. You know, I think for me, perhaps going back in time, it was don't be afraid to come back and ask for more clarifying questions. Don't be afraid to put my hand up and say, you know what? I'd love to get involved in that. Or that's new to me. Can I, can I shadow you? Can I learn from this, have that, even have a deeper sense of curiosity and learning. Yeah. It's you know, it's interesting you make the comment about having been lucky. I think there's like success is often a combination of preparation and luck. And so I use this phrase like a broad surface area for, for luck where, you know, lightning can strike. But if you're only opportunity to capture it is right here. Okay, hopefully. But good luck. But if you can capture it anywhere on this field, that that's good news for you. And you know what you mentioned when I think about the relationships, not not letting those people down when they advocated for you, that's a hugely important thing because it's one thing to get the opportunity. But that's only step one, right? There's like a whole and people forget. So easy to forget this when you're looking for a job. That's just step one. You have a whole career in front of you that you know that you need to be able to succeed in. And I'll, I'll run into people over time. And I got this great advice from a colleague and he said, here's the thing, do a great job at whatever you're doing right now. Don't have your eyes on the horizon too far, because if you don't do a great job now, those opportunities won't come. If you do do a great job, either you'll get taken care of where you are, or someone else will be like, actually, I want that person. I like people who do a great job and they’ll come and poach you. And so it was a really interesting point you made there I think. So Melissa, that was that was a fabulous discussion is before we wrap up, is there anything you would want to add on In terms of job search advice, career progression, anything like that or you feel like we've covered it? I guess one thing I would say is I don't think there from marketing is a career isn't really a set roadmap, at least from my perspective. I don't think there's a do this and then do that and that progresses you to here. It's such it's such a dynamic field. And in every organization they will view marketing or rely on marketing in a different way. And what's been exciting for me is I've had the opportunity to evolve and shape a team based on the business needs. So making sure that you're not sort of stuck in a in a set way or searching for a roadmap that maybe doesn't exist and and really thinking about again, back to that curiosity, what is the business need? One of my solving for? And how do I set myself up and the people around me to succeed? And then that starts to bridge into the work that you do outside of marketing. So how am I taking marketing and working with business transformation to affect change within the organization? How am I working with the IT department to build out the technology and the functionality, so that marketing is more effective in what we're doing? How am I connecting with our people and culture team to make sure that every employee in the organization, every colleague in the organization, is the strongest and best brand ambassador out there. So, you know, I think about marketing in a, in a much bigger sense. And it's it's really exciting for me. And I think it plays a tremendously important role in businesses, how businesses are perceived. I mentioned before, you can make or break a business overnight if you if you're not holding yourself accountable and truly authentic and who you are. And so that ends up having a big impact on the bottom line. And, I think it's just it's a great field. It's a field that has exponential potential and growth. And yeah, it's I think it's it's super exciting. I think there's a lot of leadership. We're seeing a lot more marketing at the C-suite table right now. And it it's it's a really a true career that people can develop. Melissa that's actually a great way to end it. Why don't we we wrap with that. Thanks so much for your time. There were some really interesting insights in here that I just haven't come across before, and ways of thinking about things. So I think it's, I found it really interesting. I'm sure our audience is going to as well. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Ashley. I look forward to seeing you again soon. Sounds good. Thanks, Melissa.