The Hidden Psychology of Getting Hired (with Susan Gygax)

Want to stand out in your job search? In this episode of The Career Starter Show, Ashley Misquitta sits down with Susan Gygax, a talent acquisition leader who has hired for multi-billion-dollar companies.

Susan breaks down why STAR stories are outdated, how recruiters actually evaluate candidates in 2025, and the LinkedIn mistakes that quietly cost students interviews.

You’ll learn the 5 core business problems behind every job, how to craft interview answers that resonate, how to spot red and green flags on your own LinkedIn profile, and how to navigate interviews when the interviewer is inexperienced.

If you’re a business-school student or early-career professional trying to get hired — this episode is a masterclass.

🎯 What You’ll Learn

- Why STAR answers can make you sound rigid and outdated
- The people-skills hiring managers prioritize in 2025
- How to read a job posting for the real problem you’re being hired to solve
- The LinkedIn signals that get you shortlisted
- How to follow up after a weak interview
- A mindset shift that puts your career progress back in your control

📕 Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:55 Why STAR Stories Fail in 2025
02:17 What Hiring Managers Really Look For Now
07:50  Susan’s Background: 28 Years in Talent Acquisition
13:00  Find the Story Thread Behind Every Job
14:09  5 Core Problems
16:59  Problem: Not Getting Interviews
18:38  Fix Your LinkedIn: Green Flags Recruiters Love
23:14 The Trust Recession: Why Proof Matters More Than Ever
24:27 Should You Message Recruiters? (The Real Answer)
35:50 Handling Inexperienced Interviewers L


🔗 Connect with Susan Gygax
 “You are your only determining factor”
Spectacle Talent Partners
LinkedIn: Susan Gygax 


📚 Book Recommendations:

Unreasonable Hospitality 
Simon Sinek’s books
Range by David Epstein, 

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📣 Connect with Ashley!!!

LinkedIn, website, X

P.S.

To see all the Career Starter Program Book recommendations, click here: 

Transcript

0:00

What are green signals? And what are red signals? If your LinkedIn profile looks like grandpa's cabin in the woods that hasn't been visited since 2012. We are. That's a big flag Identify which of the five core problems they're trying to solve with this position, and then make sure that your stories all speak to it, that your common thread in the conversation. What are these five problems? Once you understand the principle? The principle drives the strategy. The strategy drives the tactics. You don't waste your time on a low level, low value tasks that just keep you busy. But don't move the needle in your favor. So this is actually very interesting and new for me as well So it’s kinda cool Okay, here we go. Susan. It's great to have you here. Thanks so much for taking the time to be with us and sharing the pretty broad breadth of experience that you have. Thanks so much for having me, Ashley. I'm delighted to be here. Okay. So we're going to start out hot. Let's jump into what is something Susan, that you have a strong view about with respect to the job search or interviewing, what or whatever where you strongly believe something that conventional wisdom would view differently? Yeah. Yeah. STAR stories are showing their age. STAR stories were developed in 1974 or 1971. One of the other 1970s by DDI. DDI is a fabulous organization, still alive and well. A large consulting company. 1970s let's talk about our careers in the 1970s. They were predictable. They were linear. They were in office. People stayed with companies for decades. The STAR format was created in 1970s by DDI to answer behavioral questions. They are very factual right results situation everybody's and it's cousins CARL and STARR with an extra R like all of those things. They're very factual. They are also rigid, forced and not well suited for the way that hiring decisions get made in 2025. And we're looking at 2026. Back in the 1970s, all of those realities are not any of our realities today. Not to mention the people who are making decisions are not the decision makers of the 1970s. Today we prioritize diversity. We prioritize communication, critical thinking. People who could work autonomously. Not in an office, in a cubicle. All of those things. So STAR has completely ignored the number one value. And what more than 80% of hiring managers say they're looking for, which is people skills. People skills, So what do you recommend as an alternative to STAR Stories? Or maybe you were about to go there. Yeah. So the alternative, I mean, I developed a framework that I teach my clients so that they can lean into what actually gets people to say, you're the person that we need to hire, not, hey, I liked your interview. And then you get the message that says, we're moving on. Not that. Hey, that was a really great conversation. And then you never hear back from them again. What we teach and what I believe people need to prioritize is their ability to bring the people component into their stories, specifically how they tell their story through the lens of the people that it impacted, the negative and the positive. Because without that emotion, there's no story. So can you maybe talk us through a comparison of like, what might a STAR story look like versus one with this other framework? Yeah. So let's just say I'm trying to think what might be a role that somebody would would apply for. Let's say someone is looking for a investment banking role just as an example or consultant. But whichever one makes the most sense? Investment banking, consulting. Product management, marketing, anything sort of within that universe okay. Digital marketing. Digital marketing for argument's sake. Okay. Let's say let's take digital marketing. So digital marketing person, one of the things that they're going to be responsible for would be what what would be something that they would be responsible to do. So they would be responsible for they could be responsible for Facebook ad campaigns. They can be responsible for let's let's do that. Let's do Facebook ads. Simple enough. So if you’re following the STAR first format, you’re going to say something like, the interviewer is going to ask a question, something to the effect of, you know, one of the key components of this job is being able to run, manage, lead Facebook ad campaigns. Tell me your experience about that. Right. So following the STAR format, you're going to say, yeah, I did that at my last company. And when we started we had a campaign budget of $20,000, but we really weren't getting any, ROAS return on the ad spend, right? We weren't getting any return on it on our ad spend. And so I was able to work with the rest of the marketing team and our senior leaders to adjust the way we were doing our ads so that we got better across our ROAS. I think it's what I call. That's a very, very simple example, but that's a very much a situation task, action result, right. That's what we did. Alternatively, very same question is yeah. At my last company, I was responsible for managing the entire ad budget, which at the time was about $20,000. The problem was we had people inside of the organization who we weren't measuring what was working and not working. It was basically going into a black hole. What that means is the people who held the budget strings were not speaking to the people who were making the decisions. And so there was a lot of tension. People were really frustrated on both sides. And the people who had the budget were getting ready to actually cut it back. And then the those of us who are in marketing were feeling really nervous and concerned because we knew that that $20,000 wasn't even enough to cover everything that they wanted us to get done. So what I did was I used the data that we had already compiled, and I set up ongoing meetings with the decision makers over the course of three months. So that we could track it in very real time, and they could see exactly what that ad spend was getting us. So what happens once we did that after three months was both the marketing leadership and the folks that held the budget strings were able to come together. As a matter of fact, the head of of our marketing department told me that it was the most effective conversations they've had with the financial folks, and it changed the game for the rest of the my time at the organization, because now both of those parties who were butting heads for four years now, they actually sit at the table and enjoy these conversations. As a matter of fact, the budgeting person told me that they were ready to up the budget to $25,000 a year because of what we've been able to accomplish. Okay, so I see the clear differences between those answers is pretty interesting. I'm not sure I've heard someone frame it that way before. No, it's it's interesting cause the conventional wisdom is like STAR stories, right? And, it is it's interesting to have sort of that different angle where you really are talking about the interpersonal skills and the team building skills and the communication skills, all to get to, to a better destination. That's an interesting way to approach it. I think I have to spend a little more time thinking about that. Susan, let's let's step back. And why don't you tell our audience briefly, what it is you do, how you help people, that kind of thing. So I was started my career actually, as a human resources generalist. Got out of that as soon as I could and took a turn into talent acquisition and stayed there for over 25 years, 28 years. The last 11 years I spent as a talent acquisition leader in very high growth organizations, multimillion and multibillion dollar companies. So leading 25 person plus talent acquisition teams, where we were responsible to hire every level of the organization from per diem to individual contributor to manager to director to C-suite executives and in doing so, accomplished a lot of processes, systems, methodologies so that my teams could become trusted advisors inside of the business and we could spend less money on firms and having positions open to long. After December 2019, I launched my recruitment solutions firm, focusing on just those things recruitment solutions for fast growing companies. And then in about 2023, the summer of 23, actually, I spoke with a woman who was a vice president at a household name company, and she was laid off, and she had been with this organization for about 15 years, and her HR bestie gave her help. Friends that she knew at her level gave her help. And in the months since her layoff, her search went nowhere. So we had a conversation 30 minutes and she said, well, the HR person told me this and I said my recommendation would be this. Here's why. She said, well, my other friend who's a vice president told me this, and I said, my recommendation is this. And here's why. That was basically the extent of our conversation. And she said this was the most helpful recruiter conversation I've ever had. Thank you. Telling my husband. And he said, why don't you do that? And he said, why don't you do that? He said, you're constantly telling me how people are not prepared for their interviews. They think they're prepared, but they're answering questions through their lens, not through the lens of the company. And that's what launched the Career Consulting, which is now the Career Advisory. Okay. Well, let's just go down that road. I mean, I have some questions that I've sort of pre-planned to talk about, but let's go down that road. When you talk about When you talk about people answering the questions through their own frame, as opposed to a better alternative, what is that better alternative? How do you think about that? And some of that's probably the STAR method versus what you recommend. But is there anything else you would highlight? Yeah, I think the biggest unlock for people is to understand that job descriptions are generic and job titles are made up. Doesn't mean they're not thoughtful, doesn't mean they're not deliberate. This is not a dig. I have lots of comp and benefits, friends, and a lot of respect for the work that they do, but it is only specific to that one company and their and their compensation philosophy. Right? You could be the vice president of a row boat or the vice president of a steamship. Still vice president job title. Is it a row boat or steamship? You don't know until you learn more about that organization. So with that knowledge in mind, knowing that number one, hiring is high risk, you could talk about that in a minute if you if you want. But two, a company is only trying to solve one of five core problems with an open position. That's it. So rather than spending all of your time tweaking your resume to match a job description that is generic and probably hasn't been changed in a couple of years, maybe they tweaked it, but not materially. Instead, you want to identify which of the five core problems they're trying to solve with this position, and then make sure that your stories all speak to it, that your common thread in the conversation, so that you can then showcase you've solved that exact problem. Not all these other problems, that exact problem. Okay, so now you got me curious. What are these five problems? So the five core problems, the five core problems. This is going to make everybody's life so much easier because it is available inside the job description in the job posting itself in the job description. Once you understand this and you look for it, you will learn how to find it. Here they are. Make us more money, but help us advance a critical initiative. Lower our risk, save us time, assist in our need for change. These are not job title specific. These are not position specific. These are not level specific once you realize that. So for example, one of my clients, he was looking at a multi-billion dollar organization he was looking for. The title was Solution Architect. I believe. But when we read it over all, he said, well, it could fit any one of those five, right? Because it's it's internally it's externally facing. It's it's internal. It has to collaborate with all the different pieces of the organization. And he's like at first any one of these five. And he's like at first any one of these five. But then once we looked at it together, he realized the core problem was make us more money. Now he had his common thread. That was his story thread. And once he wove that story thread, because he had plenty of experience, he had plenty of stories. He had plenty of successes and some losses. But certainly understanding that story thread, once he was able to pull that through every single piece of his conversation, they offered him the job that that's a really interesting way to think about it, because you're really focusing on the problem they're trying to solve. They're ears are going to pick that up and you're almost, you know, they're off doing it indirectly, as opposed to saying, I can tell your problem is because if you're oh, that's how you agree with this. your problem is because if you're oh, that's how you agree with this. It's like if your stories all weave that in their ears, you're going to hear that. And they'd be like, wow, this person is going to solve our problems, as opposed to look at all the skills that person has. Exactly right. That's exactly right. You hit the nail on the head. They're looking at hiring is high risk takes time, attention and money. Right. So they're looking to lower risk in an expensive problem. Expensive people get hired all the time as long as they show that they solved expensive problems. And the most expensive problem is the core problem. CEOs don't solve all their problems. They solve their expensive problems. So the, the core problems, make us more money advance our goals? Advance a critical initiative. Okay. Manage help manage our risk. Lower risk. Give us more time. Save time. Save time. You got those. Save time. Okay. And and help drive change. Yeah. This is mainly for, that’s usually on innovation and those typesof things. Okay. Those types of things okay. Okay. So that was really interesting. I have a bunch of more questions I want. I think that I’m going to riff off of that. It's funny that we've we've talked before. But I don't know, we really dove into these things. So this is actually very interesting and new for me as well. So it's kind of cool. Well, I'm glad you found it helpful. Hopefully everybody that’s listening is finding it helpful as well because yeah, because to simplify it right I find that many career coaches are very tactic oriented. Very less are strategy oriented. And I think where you and I probably really help our clients is really with those principles. Right. Once you understand the principle, The principle drives the strategy. The strategy drives the tactics, you don’t waste your time on a low level, low value tasks that just keep you busy. But don't move the needle in your favor. You actually spend your time on strategy and principles, and then you just deploy the tactics as a result of those things. So it kind of drives an interesting thought. If, if I think about a job search, as I build some relationships to get to know the company, my resume hits the screen or it gets in into the right hands and, the there's an interest in me. I interview and I get a job that's kind of like a rough give or take a job search process. That's the phases. Sure. When you think about what you describe to people within there, how you work with your clients, maybe let's just more focus on this. Like, what are the things that within that, within that process you think of differently than other folks that you think help your clients a lot? There's, you know, a variety that we can go sort of like high level and then like subcategories for each of them. But I'm actually more interested in the things that you think of differently. Yeah, I think for many people Yeah, I think for many people it's solving the right problems in the right order. So you're getting interviews but you're not getting offers. Well, we will first look at where are those interviews coming from. Are you getting contacted by executive recruiters or other types of people reaching out to you on LinkedIn? Where are those coming from? And if you're not getting through the interview process, then we know we need to look at some of those interview things that we talked about already. If you are applying and you're not getting interviews, okay, now, the first problem we need to look at is perhaps your resume and LinkedIn. Right. Because recruiters are going to LinkedIn because are you a real person? Have you said or done anything that makes us cringe? Right. With recruiters going to LinkedIn looking for red, yellow and green flags. Right. And so once you understand sort of what that methodology is on their side, then you match the problems that you solve in the right order so that you can then position yourself in the strongest way possible, depending on where is the biggest problem. For an example, I was talking with the gentleman today and he said, oh, I try and apply for three jobs a day. So do I have your permission to put my coach hat on? He said yes. I said, I suspect that those three jobs you're not very well qualified for if you're applying for 15 jobs a week, he said. That's true. I said, okay, so think about how you're spending your time. And if you instead created a strategy. So I inverted his strategy and now he's solving the right problems in the right order. And now applications is going to be this much of his time as opposed to this much of this time. Does that answer the question that I make that, it does. Yeah. I mean, there's a variety of things I want to dive a little deeper into, but, that was kind of what I was hoping for, like just start at a high level. We'll dive in. But yeah, one of the ones that jumped out to me is you talked about they're looking for, red, yellow or green signals on your LinkedIn. What's a green signal or what are green signals and what are red signals? Yeah. So whether or not we like it or not, like it, we all have a digital presence. We all are sending messages with our digital presence. If your LinkedIn profile looks like grandpa's cabin in the woods that hasn't been visited since 2012, we are. That's that's a big flag, right? Because we are. It's a signal that this person isn't actually understanding that their digital presence is important. So what is that also telling us about them in terms of the way that whatever it is that they're looking to do. Right. So digital presence is So digital presence is absolutely key inside of the digital presence there. There are components of your LinkedIn profile that send very positive green flags, right? Your banner. The least important thing about your banner is your name. I see so many people who just have their name in big, bold letters. Well, I can see your name. It's right there. It's the least important thing. Tell me again. This is us looking up at us through our lens, not taking time to look at it through the company's lens. Just like the five core problems. What I want to know when I'm a recruiter and I'm visiting your LinkedIn profile, is, are you going to solve my problem? That's the only question I'm asking myself. So you don't need to spend money on a headshot, but have a nice headshot that's smiling. Because if I met you in person, chances are you say hi. My name. Is that right, Ashley? Or you know. Hi, I'm Sue, good to meet you. Have a smiling profile. The banner. Tell me the problem you solve. What is it that you do? Your banner is like your Macy's window. Its job is to make people look. Its job is to make people look. Then they linger, and then they want to learn more. And then we go through the rest. Right. And red flags, things on your resume that are not on your LinkedIn profile and vice versa. Yes. I look at your resume and I looked at your profile, and I looked to see if there's something missing, something that doesn't line up. Other red flags are using LinkedIn as a diary, right? If you use LinkedIn and Rage post or or comment on something, right? Those are red flags and there's a lot of that happening. And those are things to stay away from. Other green flags would be the fact that you've actually posted interesting things about the work that you do. Big green flags, right? Because that like, oh, not only does Ashley have the background we're looking for, I can tell by reading a few of his posts that he knows what he's talking about. It's not window dressing actually. Ashley has a depth of knowledge here. Now. I'm enthusiastic. He goes to the top of my call list. So that's a couple of examples. And those are great. I do a LinkedIn writing challenge with with mostly students, but some early career folks, the idea is exactly what you just described. It's you. In this challenge, the aim is to write one, post a week and do that for six weeks, and we go through a bunch of stuff. But the minimum viable product is listen to a podcast about your industry and write your takeaways from it. And to me that like, it's a pretty low bar. It's relatively straightforward, but it sends the signal of, I'm interested in becoming better at my chosen craft. I'm interested in learning. I'm someone who who doesn't just sort of like sit around and wait for things to come to me, and it's proof of work. It's saying, yeah, look, I genuinely am interested in this, and it benefits you in your interviews because you have a richness of knowledge most people don't have. That's right. So, so I think I so I think I completely agree with that. I think that's really interesting. Yeah. Commenting I'm assuming when you talk about commenting, you're talking about it in the context of like shouting or politics or like rage commenting as opposed to commenting on, a post of, let's say, go back to a digital marketing example. Someone who's in the digital marketing field writes a post and you're like, well, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way before. What do you think about this? Like that is probably in the green flag category. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And and for people who do post once a week staying on for 30 minutes after they post at a minimum, that's part of their golden hour, which is still very real and part of the algorithms mathematical back end. Right. So we want to make sure that when you post that you're spending that 30 minutes, 60 if you want, but at least 30, to then have the that's your time does have some thoughtful comments on other people's posts. Raising your visibility, getting in front of the people that you actually want to talk to, people of influence, people who are doing cool things in your field or people that you just find really interesting. Two of my clients, both in senior level positions, were contacted by former colleagues, people they hadn't spoken to in at least ten years. They didn't like a post. They didn't engage on a post. They didn't show any interest whatsoever, but messaged them directly and said, hey, I have a job. So raising your visibility now, getting comfortable with it when they're in that early stage career will serve them forever, because we actually like to work with people that we feel are approachable and that are trustworthy. We're in a trust recession, right? We all try things like that really wasn't what I was cracked up to be. Or we did a program or we did a course or whatever it is like. I'm not sure that was worth it. I'm not sure that was worth it. So the more that we can demonstrate, yeah, I am who I say I am. Then there's great opportunity to raise trust. And then once you do that, then it's a much easier way that people can build their teams as well. Interesting. Would you how do you think about reaching out to people via LinkedIn, who you're interested in connecting with or in your field? And I'm Does that generally call pitch anything or is it more of like Does that generally accomplish anything or is it more of like there's just too much spam already? It depends. It depends who you are reaching out to. Recruiters and hiring managers, very low probability that you're going to hear back from them because everybody else is doing that too. And if recruiters spent And if recruiters spent their time replying to all of these messages on LinkedIn, we wouldn't fill our jobs. So there's a low likelihood there. If you are reaching out to people who are in the role that you would like to have or adjacent roles, right? So think of a 360 sort of a circle. Who else works with those types of positions? What other groups, companies, departments work with those types of roles. And you're reaching out to those people genuinely interested in their work story that is absolutely a way that that is absolutely a way that you can start to actually build a strategic network inside of LinkedIn. Just out of curiosity or so. So I agree completely with your second one. I had a curiosity for the first one. I had a curiosity for the first one. What would cause a recruiter to read it and reply like, I guess maybe the question is for sure the. Hi, I just applied really interested in the role. Great. I'm sure recruiters get like far too many of those. Yeah, but how about something that were your was there anything that you could do that's different from the generic thing that might that might prompt a response, prompt a second look, prompt that person to check out your resume, prompt that person and check out your LinkedIn page. Or is it just not worth the effort because there's better ways to skin the cat? Yeah, I would say you could. I mean, you don't need an Inmail. You don't need premium studies for the most part. Show the people respond to Inmail less than they actually respond to a connection request. If you do send a connection request, you have 300 characters. You can say a lot and 300 characters. So don't underestimate a well worded connection request so I do think that there is some value, but the reality is it's one at bat, it's one. It's a swing. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Versus a post A post has hundreds of at bats with one swing. So so there's there's some value in there. I think what I typically recommend people think about is just that circle of finding ten people inside of that company that you're genuinely interested in having a conversation with, and have a conversation about them. What was their work story? How did they get there? Do they like it inside? Where did they work before those in a 15 minute call? Once people connect with you, those can be much more beneficial than, hey, I'm interested in your job or even a well worded introductory message. Or just email the recruiter directly. Or just email the recruiter directly.

A: 27:10

So you hit on that that S: But even that you're not likely getting a message reply. So you hit on something I thought was interesting there. It sounds to me like your approach with your clients is not wait for a posting. It's not wait till you know something's out there, but figure out where you want to work and start targeting that. There is some like number of companies around that. Did I did I get that right as I feel characterization? Absolutely, yeah. Because once it's posted you're in the crowded pool. Or you can say it this way, you just you're stuck in traffic. Everybody's trying to get there, that job, and you're just behind however many cars back, depending on how many other people have applied. Yeah. So so we collectively, regardless of the stage of your career that you're in, you have much more agency than we realize. When we focus on the places that we can put our inputs, as opposed to, I'm trying to get this out of that, reach out to the recruiter because I'm trying to get them to reply to me. I'm trying to get this from that instead. To your point earlier about reading an article and posting some interesting comments about it, or posting a post and then making comments on other people's posts, now you're starting to create some opportunity for conversation. And this obviously has to be balanced because people there is a sense of pressure of I need a job, I have to get a job, I have bills I need to pay pretty post, don't pay the bills. I get that. But once you understand that there is, a rhythm that you can create for yourself, that optimizes LinkedIn, applying to jobs conversations, then you are filling your day with what you can control as opposed to all the things that you can’t. And it protects your well-being. It protects your sense of confidence. Right? Because how many jobs can you apply to get rejection emails? And you start your confidence just starts to ... Right? And confidence is the secret ingredient to a great interview. And you really start to understand that there's so much opportunity out there because you're cultivating conversations with people who have really interesting things going on. So it's a balance and I get it. But if all people do is apply or doom scroll, then they're doing the lowest level of activity and with the least amount of of control. The psychological aspect of this whole thing, I think is, is deeply, deeply underappreciated. Because, yeah, you have to be able to, at a moment's notice, go from 0 to 60 and be ready, sharp, crisp, ready to go with your best answers, putting your best foot forward. And if you're demoralized, if you're thinking how you know how, how it's just so frustrating. It's really difficult to to to change your state quickly into a abundance mindset of like, we're ready to go, let's do this. Yeah, yeah. That whole convincing thing really is from that scarcity of mindset as opposed to I'm here to explain and explore, that’s it here to explain and explore. We'll see if this is a good mutual fit. And and we've all done interviews where we walked out going. I could have done that better. That was not my best work. But even in those instances, right with with the right coach, you can take steps even after that interview, that can still keep you in the game. Which is why I think coaches are becoming more critical in that, less critical with AI. How do you think about the importance of asking good questions, kind of at the end of that interview when they say, you know, Sue, I really appreciate your time, but I want to leave a little time for you to ask us some questions, thoughts on the importance of that and then how you think about crafting those questions. Yeah, questions are fantastic. I think clarifying questions are even better than end of the conversation questions. So when an interviewer asking a question, sometimes you race to answer it, but we're not even really sure what they're asking. And this is where the core problem can really serve us well. Because if they ask this a question that's somewhat generic or not even well worded, or we're not entirely sure which direction to go, asking a clarifying question before giving an answer showcases that you're there to have a dialog and not just a tennis match. It reduces that sense of transactional. So I think clarifying questions throughout the interview can be really, really helpful and take you down some really interesting paths that other people aren't going down. But to answer your question, more specifically, clarifying questions or questions at the end of the interview, I think they are phenomenal because it can give you insights that can help you continue the conversation. Because once the interview ends, the review period is not over. So if you ask interesting questions at the end that makes them pause and think, you become memorable. And then it gives you information that you can have follow on discussions via email. Because now you have had this conversation with this person and you know that they do really want to solve this problem. And you can you can continue a dialog via email that still positions you as the person who can solve their problem. So I really like that. I think that's really interesting and a really interesting way to frame it. I'm curious what would like what would be the types of questions you're asking? I can make some guesses, but I'm curious what like how you when you coach people. Yeah. What do you encourage them to ask? How do you encourage them to think about forming those. It really everybody's a little different. A couple of the questions that I, that I like, just because I think they make the interviewer think one is, how would you describe your leadership style in three words or in three words? It's the container of the three words that usually makes people pause. So does a couple things. One, and allows you to to find out if this person has some degree of self-awareness, which is always good in a leader, right? It also tells you what's important to them, because without any context, you're asking this question. They're going to tell you what they what they believe to be important. And now you're getting information that you can follow up on about any of those characteristics, qualities, things that they mentioned. So the container of the three words gives you a lot of detail in a very short amount of time, especially when interviews are shorter than they typically used to be. Another question that I, that I like is what's the, primary goal in the next quarter? So Q4 into Q1, right. So based on what I've researched about the company, I've noticed X and Y in Q1, what are those things still a key priority or is there something else? Or maybe they just had an acquisition ask about that. Or maybe the CEO just did a podcast and you can piggyback off of a conversation from there. So it could really come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, but it is really just about showcasing that you are genuinely interested in being the person who could solve the problem and having a dialog with the person and curious about what is important for them. Right to say a little differently What's keeping them up at night? I wouldn't use that phrase, but that's the idea. Yeah, it's a great idea. I mean, one of the things you that you mentioned earlier, which I think is super, super valuable, but not always easy for people to do, is that sort of follow up to maintain top of mind, to keep highlighting how you're focused on solving their problems and that kind of thing? Yeah. How do you encourage people sort of to to follow up in that period after the interview? Three over 14, three emails over 14 days? three emails over 14 days? Okay. Okay. Very specific. Yeah. Very specific. Yeah. You got this through You got this through and they should be not. Hey any updates. Right. That's that's not the point. The point is, was there one specific thing that you guys talked about that maybe you do a post on or you write an article about or something new that's happening in the industry that you genuinely did some research on and, and had a thoughtful comment. Short, clear, specific. Right. And just again, you're still in the review process, even though the interview itself has ended. And so you're continuing just it's a dialog so that you can help people see you in that job saying. And what you're doing is you're through the interview during the interview I should say, setting yourself up to have those things, right? Because if you don't properly get a sense of what problems are trying to solve, then you can't use that as a hook to follow up with. Right? Right. In the in the event that unfortunately, sometimes people are interviewing with early career recruiters who don't have a lot of experience recruiting has a very low barrier of entry. And so sometimes if you're dealing with somebody who doesn't have a lot of experience and it's almost like a check box, like they're asking this question, then they ask this question and they ask this question and it feels very ugghhh. Then you can always default back to the position description with with the hiring, with the hiring manager or any of those types of things. So there's always ways that you can do it. If you don't feel like you really had that opportunity in the in the initial conversation or in the follow up conversation, it's interesting too, because what part of what makes for a great and memorable interview is the conversational aspect is the it's not like back and forth and back and forth, right? That's kind of dull for everybody. To some degree. The better off I think you can drive that conversation. And then if you do end up with an interviewer who is less experienced, it's a tricky one, because when you've got to try and initiate, like, not initiate, but cause a conversation to happen, but just what you could do, even if it's doable, even if they're not as experienced, it may not be as rich. Right. But it's also what people I'm curious what you think about this because I'm of the view that I'm of the view that if they're not asking you good questions and not getting the information from you that you want them to get, that's your problem. They may not be very good at it, but you've got to get across the things they need to know to say, wow, that's the person. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that the more comfortable we are with acknowledging that's an opportunity for us, as opposed to being worried that somehow there's right answers. Do one of the other things I work with my clients on is this idea of credibility. And people go lean too much into the likability element, miss competence and trust people who lean too much in competence and trust miss the Likability. Likability. So people who say, we had a really great conversation, or they told me they really like talking to me, think that's high likability? Okay, but did you talk about the job that you talk about the problems? Did you talk? Well, no, because we were talking about kids and Halloween. Well, then that tells me that there is an opportunity for you to drive competence in your follow up conversations, right? Or in your follow up messages. Because for me, the likability and the competence at that intersection, that's credibility. That little that's the sweet spot. That's the credibility sweet spot, and that's what you're aiming for. So don't waste time in the front end having this chatty chat about things that are not important. Build the likability by telling your story through a people lens so that you're building rapport and they're like, oh, this person gets it. Not only are they really competent, but they have the people skills. It's an interesting observation. I've heard, people come out of interviews and being like, yeah, went really well. We we got along really well and we talked about this and that. Great. You hit the likability, but you had such a great observation. And I thought the other interesting thing you said too, was that if you do end up in that situation, you also have the ability to sort of correct for it via that follow up. I like that idea of like likability and competence, and you're trying to hit a sweet spot of a balance between the two. I think that's a good way to think about it. I want to think about that one a little more as well. Yeah, that's credibility. Let's. Yeah, that's great about it. Let's. Yeah. No it is, it's a it's a really interesting way to think about it. Yeah. Yeah. So let's shift our conversation a little bit to starting out your career strong. You are giving advice to 22 year old Sue. What are the things you tell her? Say yes. When there is a question about when you get into an internship or you're starting your first job rather than rather than what can they do for me? what can they do for me? Ask yourself what you can do for them and say yes to the things that are outside of your typical scope. Because when you become the person who can do lots of things, then you're building relationships outside of the one particular internship or job or whatever it is that you have. Network outside of the company. So getting what you get into a job and you start to get comfortable, you know the people, you know the players, it's your known arena stadium. You know what I mean? There's a there's a sometimes a comfort level, right. Like we get the recliner we're in our known arena. We're good. Right? We're comfy. Get outside of your comfort zone and find people to engage with in and out of your industry, even if it's uncomfortable, so that you can start to build those relationships now and and naturally let them develop over time. Most of us who built careers, we have a very convenient network. We don't have a strategic network. So I would tell her, build your strategic network. Don't rely on the convenient one. And say yes to the this is hopefully this doesn't sound disrespectful, And say yes to the, this is, hopefully this doesn't sound disrespectful, but this is the way that I say say yes to the ugly babies. Like everything that the other people are saying no to the big problems. Say yes to those, right? Say yes to those, right? I was in one particular job. I forget it was 4 or 5 promotions in about as many years because I said yes. I went from an individual. No, I was, I was, I was a supervisor and I went to head of the department in just a few years because I said, yes, it's great. It's great advice. I mean, there's so many things in there that I think are interesting, like the, the whole, strategic network as opposed to a convenient network. And it's makes so much sense. Very few people do it. I have to go back and think how well I've done. We don't even talk about that right now. Don't we all, don't we all. Yeah. Oh. Always growing, always growing. Yeah. But but you're right though. Particularly in the context of do things that other people might be like, oh, that's too hard or that's too big or I can't do that because 1. you grow and 2. you end up getting noticed because you're the one doing the hard things. And if you're the one doing the hard things, solving the problems, well, who's going to get promoted? The person doing the easy stuff, hiding in the corner. They're the one who's running to the fire. Obscurity inside of a company is wicked expensive. So the people who just want to stay in their little you know, this is my job description. I can read it, I understand it, I can do it. Those are the people that if they’re not there. They probably won't feel that pain. Yeah. I mean, those are the people who are most at risk in a tough economic environment. When they have to cut, they probably don't cut the person who's going in aggressively trying to solve problems. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Was there anything that you thought was super important when you started out, that you looked that you sort of relatively quick look back on and were surprised that it wasn't as important? It's important. This is a skill. This is a characteristic that I need to have. And then when you got into your, your roles, you look back and you were like, actually that wasn't that important at all. Or less important maybe than you thought it was. An example might be just to give you a moment or two to think. So when I talk to people in certain finance roles, they will say, I came in there thinking I if I was the champ of Excel or financial modeling or whatever, that's the key, core thing. Yeah, it's important. But when I got there, I realized that not only was that critical, but I needed to be able to work really effectively with people far more than I would have been anticipated. And it under indexed to the technical skills, although you need a baseline capacity relative to what I thought. Yeah, I think for me, if I could think back that far was thinking I had to have all the answers. So feeling like, okay, I'm in this job, I'm doing this job, I should know how to do this. Whatever this is in front of me that I like. I really don't know what I'm doing. And being afraid to ask a question or just trying to figure it out myself or winging it. If I had put myself in a position to ask other people, then I think I would have built those relationships, but also actually learned along the way. So I think feeling like I had to to know stuff that I just didn't quite know yet. And once you learned that, it's very freeing. I remember sitting with, with, a business intelligence leader, one of my favorite leaders ever, just super smart, super kind, super genuine, genuine and generous person. I was like, B.I., this is a while ago, but B.I., help me understand what this is. And he sat with me and showed me all of these things and I it was it was amazing. So he appreciated it because I was asking, which meant I could recruit better. And I understood what they were looking for in such a deeper capacity that our assessments became much more effective. And who doesn't like talking about what they know, right? So in those short conversations, it it built a rapport that if I just was winging it and trying to figure it out on my own, never would have happened. And it, you know, it became a beautiful working relationship in that way. It flows interestingly into, another question that I was wondering about. Well, I think we'll do this and then we'll move to our wrap up questions. Okay. When you think about mentors, people often, will ask me about, How do you find a mentor? That kind of thing. And I've kind of been of the view that you don't find mentors, per se. It happens organically and or they find you because you're doing interesting things. And people look at more junior folks and say, wow, that person is doing interesting things. I'd like to help them or I'd like to, you know, let me see if I can help. Like help them accelerate things or it just happens organically. I'm curious how how that lands with you, is that sort of make sense, or do you have a different view on that? It's a great question. I think I'm going to ask you a question back. How do you define mentor? I would define it as someone who is probably reasonably further along in their career, not like, you know, a year or two ahead of you. So five plus years, probably closer to ten. Someone who has a breadth of experience that can help you avoid sort of the more like rudimentary mistakes. Someone who can help guide you in terms of direction based on sort of their broader view of the landscape. And someone ideally, but not always, who can, who will be in someone who can be in meetings where they say we should make sure we look at Sue for this role. So so somebody in your organization that you have access to or can get access to those kind of like the optional part, like it doesn't have to be in your organization. So we set the last one aside. Someone who's like for like Obi-Wan and Luke, Gandalf and Frodo, you can probably tell on my poster, in my my examples where my interests lie. Hopefully those mean something to you. But that's kind of the idea. Yeah, I have a broader definition of a mentor in that I think anybody who has achieved a level of expertise in an area that I'm desiring to learn, can be a mentor for me. So there are people I follow, podcasts. They have a deep level of expertise in an area that I'm looking to learn. And when I approach that with not necessarily a back and forth dialog because I don't have access to them in that way, but I do view them as a mentor because I want to apply what they're sharing and saying and learning or telling me in a way that I can then grow and develop my own expertise in that area, as opposed to I feel like many times, especially with all of the information that's out there nowadays, sometimes we go into certain settings or even listening to other people a bit skeptical and prove it kind of mentality. And I think that we could, if we opened ourselves up thoughtfully to people who have demonstrated expertise and expertise in a particular area that we could learn a whole lot, and they could even be mentors for us, even though we've never met them. So I think that's a the less classical perspective of mentor than what? Than what you mentioned. But I think in the context of talking to somebody that I have access to, I would say that if if it is somebody in a community that you can ask that you can ask specific questions of and they have a depth of expertise in then, I think that that's fabulous. Cool. So let's shift to our sort of wrap up questions here. I really appreciate the time you've given us and and our audience that are going to find this really helpful. Any resources other than the newsletter that, you know, we publish that I, my team and I publish. Are there any resources that you find helpful that you think people should look at when it comes to job search, interview prep, early career acceleration, that kind of thing, whether it's books or podcasts, you know, very broad based. Anything you’d highlight. Yeah, I would say reading nonfiction books that are in and outside of your area because they are the fastest way to make you a better communicator. So reading books of areas of interest, whatever that is. I have a whole slew of books. One of my favorite books of all time is Unreasonable Hospitality. And I think that reading those types of books will give you a broader lens of the world. And because you have that broader lens, then you have more tools in your toolbelt to be able to find places that you want to connect or communicate or contribute to, which is part of being able to be that person who can meet somebody for the first time and find the point of connection and move it towards a dialog. So there's a handful of books that that I recommend. The Simon Sinek’s books I think are really strong for early career professionals. I mentioned Unreasonable Hospitality already. Another interesting one that I think is David Epstein wrote a book. He's I think he did a Wall Street Journal. He's he's done a couple books. But he comes at, just your career from a very, very different lens because, as you'd grow your career, typically you get more specialized. And he talks about the place of where generals can fit and how important they are in our in our world and our businesses. So that's another one I recommend. That's great. Those are some great recommendations. I'm looking forward to. I've heard of Range, but I haven't seen it. I haven't read it. Yeah, it's good and I'd never heard of Unreasonable Hospitality. I'm looking forward to checking that out. Oh it’s a good one. Anything within acceleration that you really want to make sure our audience hears about that we haven't talked about yet, that I maybe haven't asked you. You are your only determining factor. Everything else is a contributing factor. Never conflate the market, your resume, anything that you talked about today, those are all outside of you. You are the only determining factor for what you can become in your career, and you have full agency over you. So yeah, I love this idea of agency. I've been absolutely fascinated with it since I first came across it. George Mack was, well, the first person I ever heard that idea from, he’s on X. And he's just a really interesting thinker on this stuff. And I'll talk when I talk to students and, like, give when I give talks, I will often bring up agency. And I find it difficult to define. But one of the ways he highlighted it, very articulate, which I thought was amazing, was he said, picture a horrible, horrible country that you have accidentally wandered into. You're on vacation and the horrible countries next door, and you accidentally wandered in. And you are they put you in prison there. Who is the one you got one person you can call? Who is that one person? As you figure that person out, you will have identified the highest agency person you know. That's really interesting. Who would I call? I think it's, That's a really good one. And I think, you know, one of the things, too, if you think about this idea of agency, Oprah Winfrey, I think I think it was Mississippi where she was born. Right. Most people know her story from someone who has probably not given a lot of opportunity, but she owned her own agency and now is Oprah. All right. She' doesn’t even need a last name. She’s just Oprah. And the opposite is true, right? Because a one sided thing does not exist. We know people who were given plenty of opportunity, schooling and and access to people and all of those things that actually haven't done a whole bunch with it. So I think that's that's another way to kind of think about understanding how much agency people we really have for our lives. Yeah, I agree, I really like the way you characterized it. About you were sort of the determinant of things. I think that's a it's very it's 100. I think it's completely accurate. But it's also very empowering for people. And, you know, that idea that this, that so much of it exists within your locus of control is both good and bad, right? It's great because you can impact things. But, you know, you're also responsible to some degree. So many really interesting nuggets in there. Really appreciate you having taken the time to chat with us. And I'm, I'm really excited for our audience think they're going to get a lot of this. Thank you very much. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. I appreciate you asking me. Was such a pleasure to talk with you. And yeah, I just really appreciate the opportunity to chat. Oh, and before we go, sorry, I would be remiss in my duties as host without asking, how can people get in touch with you if they want to follow up? Oh, Easy, Susan@spectacletalentpartners.com Susan@spectacletalentpartners.com or LinkedIn. Susan-Gygax. And we'll put all of these details in the show notes as well. Fabulous. Fabulous. Terrific. Thanks Sue have a great day. You too